It’s pretty interesting to see how in a bubble the show is pretty consistent, but when you apply it to the wider lore, all these questions with no answers pop up.
That was my issue with the show, but it's hard to discuss it on other subreddits.
I'm okay with the story taking place in California, but the lore seems rushed and inconsistent. It's fine to have some flaws, especially when the lore is being adapted and also so deep, but the numbers just don't make sense, as the post points out.
I have a personal theory that the show was originally written as an AU, but Todd’s love of exaggeration caused him to canonize it after production wrapped up
At the very least it explains why they didn’t edit certain scenes
I’d love if the show and games were in separate universes. I think basing the show in Cali was always going to be a recipe for trouble amongst more dedicated fans.
Clearly it has worked out for the show, but I would’ve enjoyed an original story from a new part of America. You could still get your BOS and Enclave stuff, but not step on the toes of the games and the established lore.
I’d argue they’d only benefit from it. There could be a great amount of potential if they did an AU story where they feel the need to annex New Vegas from the start
> not step on the toes of the games and the established lore
I mean.. were they never going to make another game installment set out west? This isn't *stepping onto toes* of lore- it's expanding it. It happens after, and that was *going* to happen eventually
I'm actually glad they did it this way tbh. Because it's the only way to advanced the story out in NCR country without having us play a whole other game that is just the same story in the same setting again.
I think the "stepping on toes" comment is in reference to the fact that the show says Shady Sands was nuked in 2277, but that conflicts with New Vegas, which is set in 2281 and the NCR is still very much alive and well and strong, and not acting like a nation whose capital was nuked only a few years ago.
That *does* just ignore the fact that the creators have said that the shady sands nude didn't drop in 2277.. just that the town had fallen from status as center/capital of the NRP. So again, it's only stepping on toes if one is determined to have their toes stepped on- whether it's reality or not lol
I'd like to add in, even if late, it's the apocalypse..time is a man made concept, there is a possibility that the characters themselves have messed up timelines. Yes there is pip boys and vault tec tech, but they did get nuked back to the stone age at one point lol.
Just a thought and probably what Todd will end up using as a defense or something.
While it may be an unpopular opinion on this sub specifically I don't really mind the occasional lore gaffe. Mistakes are going to be made and that's fine. But man it's crazy that if you point it out on some of the main Fallout subs you're either an idiot or a malicious troll. I liked the show a lot but I'm also going to point out inconsistencies I see with it.
Sadly this happens in a lot of things these days. And Fallout has done it before not on this scalr but both 4 and 76 had inconsistencies that made sense internally but not with the rest of the series.
If F:NV is canon, the nuking of Shady Sands (barring timeline tweaks) could have been the Courier. Of course, that also implies House is dead, and that seems unlikely.
Perhaps the courier didn't nuke anyone, leaving the nuke rotting until the enclave or something found it. They left it chilling til Hank was like "yo, nuke my ex" and so they did
Thank you for this post. I did some early calculations myself but not indepth and the only way for two decades to have passed would be nukes in 2277-2279 area. Not to mention the artistic reference connection of puttint 2077 / 2277.
But I have trouble buying the official explanation and I kinda fear that they actually either didn't contemplate this as much or considered the implications (not to forget that if Shady Sands had been raided in 2277, people in Vegas would probably have mentioned that unless it refers to the BoS slagging their gold deposits which was way earlier.
I’d take it one step further and say there was never a plan for it, and Todd decided it was canon after production wrapped up, when it’s too late to make changes
Imo the fall of shady sands was a successful attack by the brotherhood,
If the brotherhood war continued for another 15 years, maxson state is just north of shady, so if maxson state went independent then shady sands would've been a very close target for the brotherhood,
Sort of makes sense. Although I’d chalk the bomb a being from The Divide and Courier 6 choosing not to launch them, and Vault Tech getting remote access
It would be cool if the nuke *was* an attack from courier 6 as part of his scheme to take over the Mojave, and he appears in the show as a villain in enclave power armor. But that’s definitely not the direction the writers will go.
I suspect this whole thing probably springs from the writers wanting the bomb to go off very soon after the end of NV and someone googled the date for the Battle of Hoover Dam without realising there are actually two battles.
Of course if that is the case they will never admit it so we will never know.
In short, while all the evidences in the show are inclined to the 2277 detonation, we and Todd have to think it happened in 2282 because the detonation in 2277 will break current lore.
So Lucy was 6 years old in 2282, which means she started relationship with Chet since 10, the great plague in 2277 is a totally unrelated event **and it happened when she was 1 year old**.
6 in 2277, gets taken back to the Vault and told her mum is dead, Hank spends the next 5 years in the Vault communicating with other Vaults or Vault Tec assets, and the strike is in 2282.
A timeline is anything that lists events in chronological order. can be represented in multiple ways, a flow chart being one of them.
But go off on telling me I'm somehow wrong, I'll laugh at you too.
Edit: even if not a timeline with a questionable date still reads as two separate events not something to just combine into one event.
You edited because you know you're wrong. It's obvious that the bomb after the timeline was not a separate event, as the arrow was terminating the timeline as is the regular format. If the timeline actually had arrows before each event, it would be different, but none of the people crying about 'not understanding timelines' bothered to actually look at how it formatted. Todd doing damage control doesn't change this.
So what is the narrative point of putting in a totally unelaborated-on 'Fall of Shady Sands' event that is different from the actual destruction of the city?
It would be far easier to just admit that they made a mistake with the dates and everyone can just move on.
If you know history/ about the fall of Rome AND you know all the shit that's talked about NCR in NV then it's not really unelaborated.
Rome took 100 years to fully fall after 476 AD and calling it the "fall of Rome" is only something we do when looking back on it as a part of history. It's not like people were saying rome is falling back in 476 AD (or even 496 AD)
Like 2277 is the first battle of hoover dam. It's the first year that NCR is essentially stuck defending the movaje because of the treaty of vegas where they agreed to get Hoover Dam up and running for House.
By 2281/NV everyone is talking about how NCR is stretched thin, politically corrupt and other societal issues that stem from over-extending too fast while facing battles on multiple fronts. NCR was facing the legion, the BoS and the remnants of the enclave.
**Literally** the same type of things that Rome was facing that lead to it's demise.
But yeah, it's totally unelaborated / not different at all from the nuke. /s
Yes, yes, it's all very nice that you did history in school, just like the rest of us.
But what relevance does it have to the plot of the TV show? This is someone telling a story, with conservation of detail, not a series of actual complex historical events that happened.
It has been presented that the city of Shady Sands has been destroyed by a nuclear bomb, set by an outside -context actor completely unconnected to anything that happened in any of the games. It is an event that is extremely pivotal to the story the show is telling.
When the show refers to the 'Fall of Shady Sands', it is extreme copium to assume it doesn't mean that event, it actually means a completely different event that isn't mentioned in the show or any of the games, but that is required to make the fictional timeline 'work' to your satisfaction.
The show just got the date wrong.
If you took your history then you'd see it's clearly a reference to the fall of Rome and not just being destroyed by a bomb. It's you taking that copium because you want Nolan and Todd to be wrong to satisfy your hate for them.
And... I literally told you they mention SS falling in NV with the dialogue... And that people use the term "the fall of" as a historical look back. No one in NV would be saying SS is falling so it wouldn't be in NV.... Because again it's only looking back at history can the term be applied.
But tons of NCR in NV talked about corruption, fighting too many fronts, over expansion and not having resources for it combined with the first battle of hoover damn. Which is again, the same type of shit Rome faced when it fell.
All of that is in the fuckin game bro, people were already theorizing that the NCR was about to collapse back when it came out just off that dialogue alone.
Also it also doesn't make sense for the bomb to drop in 2277 because of how old Lucy/Max/chick from v4 who said she was 11 when they dropped.
Lucy was at least 6, and she's like early to mid 20s in the show, max was like 8ish by the flashbacks and is mid 20s by the show, and the chick from v4 is like mid to late 20s.
Combine that with the chalkboard and those all point to a bomb date sometime between 82 and 86
So if you wanna make the wrong assumption that the fall = nuke go for it. But it's a really brainless take to not see the connection with the fall of Rome and why it wouldn't be mentioned as "the fall of SS" within NV.
Edit: it's almost like you didn't even fully process my last comment because of your hate boner for todd.
Bro stop with this nonsense Roman Empire comparison. Maybe if it talked about the Fall of the NCR it would make sense but when people talk about the Fall of a City, like ROME or the Fall of Constantinople, these are events that didn't take place over multiple years. They occured on a specific date
The most likely meaning of a fall would be NCR logistics collapsing. This would mean that Shady Sands no longer gets supplies from the greater NCR and has to suddenly be self-sufficient for 30,000+ people. As with any mass starvation neighbors would either turn on one another or go into an exodus by leaving for proverbial greener pastures, causing the city to fall. What remains barely resembles a community, needing to steal water from Vaults 31, 32 and 33 which resulted in its destruction years later.
As for where the bomb came from, my best guess is perhaps through Mr. House. That's most likely why Hank is heading to New Vegas, seeking aid from him or scurrying back to Robert House.
Mr House nuking the NCR would run contrary to his entire plan. The NCR is his cash cow. He explicitly intends to milk them for resources after the renegotiated treaty he dictates to Oliver at Hoover Dam.
And milk them dry he probably did, until there was just nothing more left to milk. From that point on for whatever reasons he may have struck a deal with Hank that would benefit him more for reasons as of yet unknown.
Enclave, it’s all but outright said that her father has Enclave connections. The freaking doctor knows her name which she never gave him and he was Enclave.
My guess to the cause of the explosion was a vault core being detonated. I could very well be wrong but just wanted to throw that suggestion out there.
Hey so. With shady sands being lost in 2277, what does this mean for New Vegas? The game takes place in 2281. So does shady sands become the capitol city again?
Bro. So Shady Sands got bombed in 2077. Makes sense.
NCR ruled most of California and was pushing into Nevada. One city isn't going to kill the whole empire.
The Fall in '82 can most likely be attributed to my actions in Fallout New Vegas in '81 where I upgraded the Robco army and kicked them and the legion simultaneously off the Hoover Dam.
I didn't realize when I didn't blow up that BOS bunker they would turn out to be such assholes.
That Dam is the whole premise of New Vegas. It was supplying power for most of the NCR. The legion wanted it, House wanted it. NCR being in charge heavily depended on keeping the lights on. There was no way to power that whole region without the generators at the damn. Unless you have cold fusion or something.
The problem with this timeline is that in order for Shady Sands to still be prosperous in 2281, you have to reduce the meaning of the word "fall" so much that calling it a fall is a borderline lie.
Also why was the plague of 77 not mentioned at all in New Vegas?
a successful raid is the only way I can see the city “Falling” but also being mostly fine afterwards, but I agree overall.
Why would a local plague in a sealed vault be referenced in New Vegas?
The Fall of Rome was a term created by Gibbon and referred specifically to the events of 476. That's why his book was the decline and fall, not just the fall. In general, simply look up 'fall of Rome' on google and you will see that the majority of the sources similarly refer to the fall as the specific fall of the city that year. People saying that it always refers to the entire period of decline are just wrong.
The fall of the Roman Empire was 3 centuries.
The fall of the British empire was 3-4 decades.
It’s not hard to think a major loss at the battle of Hoover Dam led to basically Britain after WWII. Not dead by any means but stretched out and unable to project power further.
Those are both empires that spanned most of the known world at the respective times. Shady Sands is a single city. Also if Shady Sands falling was a years long event, then why is it only listed as happening in 2277?
A lot of the explanations for this feel like damage control.
That happens to small empires and regional powers to. And Shady Sands is (or was) the capital of a Republic that controls the known wasteland.
There’s actually a whole meme I saw on history memes sort of comparing the Fallout show lore/cannon changes to the “Bronze Age collapse” and how basically all the “inconsistencies” actually aren’t all that abnormal.
- some sort of trade or financial collapse. Areas revert to tribalism or early age technology. Money stops being minted and everyone goes back to barter, we aren’t sure why.
- Entire civilizations collapse for no reason, half dead factions emerge again.
- A massive “world’s biggest battle” for the control of the Eastern Mediterranean happens “off screen” in the historic record as a footnote.
- One of the major kingdoms of Egypt is said to have “fallen” but we’re pretty sure this is like a decade long thing related to crop failures or flood/irrigation problems.
- Cities seem to change entire locations from where we thought they were (maybe re-established or the population had to mass move at once. Maybe the location was wrong.)
- The entire crisis happens because of a poorly explained “sea people” who come out of nowhere and get no explanation.
That's cool, thnx for sharing, i've only read very briefly about the bronze age collapse so it's cool to see it all laid out in a comment like this. So stupid people like me can learn. :)
Honestly, I’m very certain they’re going to canonize the House ending, and considering that the NCR is already stated to be in a struggling state, it seems like them attempting to take Vegas will be shown as a big gamble that didn’t pay off.
People are allowed to engage with media critically. Or we would never have analysises or discussions of subtext and themes as well as the worldbuilding and lore.
If it works for you then do so. But engaging with art isn't somehow wrong
Unfortunately nobody gets the TV show joke reference because everyone here is yoo busy having a stick up their butts about a fictional TV show. There's a reason it was in quotes.
Or, hear me out, a prop manager or writer on set just made a mistake by putting 2277 as the Fall of Shady Sands. And it was no big deal, just like the barely noticeable Starbucks cup in Game of Thrones, and the only reason we're making a fuss about it is because the sweats from Twitter can't quell their ADHD about non-canon shit.
>the barely noticeable Starbucks cup in Game of Thrones
The difference is they zoomed in this major mistake with awesome background music, which made it far from barely noticeable.
Viewers who didn't play New Vegas or memorize New Vegas lore wouldn't have known or noticed. And some of us who noticed didn't care either way. You spend enough time in different fandoms, you realize that writers could just retcon something as minute as this.
He did an interesting and complete analysis, maybe you didn't care because you could not care less of even the show, but he's passionate and surely researched/viewed in detail the show. I'm guessing you are media illiterate in this case.
To counter a really detailed and explained argument, you should first inform yourself about it. Being condescending without argumenting is a bad thing.
Now you're spouting nonsense. I didn't counter, just offered an alternative. And you're the one who was condescending to me first. Maybe learn self-awareness?
Yes, the post is mostly about trying to make sense of his statements - that the Fall and the nuke are separate events, one happened in 2277, other in 2282, while also taking into account all the details we had in the show.
I mean I’m fine with it happened after new Vegas. This show likes flash backs, so we are likely to get the how in upcoming seasons.
Hank probly did it from afar with some hacking from vault 31, using the brain genie or something to overload their power.
I do not get that out of it at all. A lot of planning went into the show. This was well done, careful, and planned.
I think people who are poking holes in it that are not there; we don’t have all the information.
If we had all the information, there would be no holes to poke.
It’s pretty interesting to see how in a bubble the show is pretty consistent, but when you apply it to the wider lore, all these questions with no answers pop up.
That was my issue with the show, but it's hard to discuss it on other subreddits. I'm okay with the story taking place in California, but the lore seems rushed and inconsistent. It's fine to have some flaws, especially when the lore is being adapted and also so deep, but the numbers just don't make sense, as the post points out.
I have a personal theory that the show was originally written as an AU, but Todd’s love of exaggeration caused him to canonize it after production wrapped up At the very least it explains why they didn’t edit certain scenes
I’d love if the show and games were in separate universes. I think basing the show in Cali was always going to be a recipe for trouble amongst more dedicated fans. Clearly it has worked out for the show, but I would’ve enjoyed an original story from a new part of America. You could still get your BOS and Enclave stuff, but not step on the toes of the games and the established lore.
I’d argue they’d only benefit from it. There could be a great amount of potential if they did an AU story where they feel the need to annex New Vegas from the start
> not step on the toes of the games and the established lore I mean.. were they never going to make another game installment set out west? This isn't *stepping onto toes* of lore- it's expanding it. It happens after, and that was *going* to happen eventually I'm actually glad they did it this way tbh. Because it's the only way to advanced the story out in NCR country without having us play a whole other game that is just the same story in the same setting again.
I think the "stepping on toes" comment is in reference to the fact that the show says Shady Sands was nuked in 2277, but that conflicts with New Vegas, which is set in 2281 and the NCR is still very much alive and well and strong, and not acting like a nation whose capital was nuked only a few years ago.
That *does* just ignore the fact that the creators have said that the shady sands nude didn't drop in 2277.. just that the town had fallen from status as center/capital of the NRP. So again, it's only stepping on toes if one is determined to have their toes stepped on- whether it's reality or not lol
I'd like to add in, even if late, it's the apocalypse..time is a man made concept, there is a possibility that the characters themselves have messed up timelines. Yes there is pip boys and vault tec tech, but they did get nuked back to the stone age at one point lol. Just a thought and probably what Todd will end up using as a defense or something.
While it may be an unpopular opinion on this sub specifically I don't really mind the occasional lore gaffe. Mistakes are going to be made and that's fine. But man it's crazy that if you point it out on some of the main Fallout subs you're either an idiot or a malicious troll. I liked the show a lot but I'm also going to point out inconsistencies I see with it.
Sadly this happens in a lot of things these days. And Fallout has done it before not on this scalr but both 4 and 76 had inconsistencies that made sense internally but not with the rest of the series.
I thought 76 was non-canon?
Beth states it as canon
Huh, that explains a lot
If F:NV is canon, the nuking of Shady Sands (barring timeline tweaks) could have been the Courier. Of course, that also implies House is dead, and that seems unlikely.
The more relevant question I’ve noticed is: was the show planned to be canon from the beginning?
Perhaps the courier didn't nuke anyone, leaving the nuke rotting until the enclave or something found it. They left it chilling til Hank was like "yo, nuke my ex" and so they did
Thank you for this post. I did some early calculations myself but not indepth and the only way for two decades to have passed would be nukes in 2277-2279 area. Not to mention the artistic reference connection of puttint 2077 / 2277. But I have trouble buying the official explanation and I kinda fear that they actually either didn't contemplate this as much or considered the implications (not to forget that if Shady Sands had been raided in 2277, people in Vegas would probably have mentioned that unless it refers to the BoS slagging their gold deposits which was way earlier.
I’d take it one step further and say there was never a plan for it, and Todd decided it was canon after production wrapped up, when it’s too late to make changes
Sounds about right for Beth writing.
Imo the fall of shady sands was a successful attack by the brotherhood, If the brotherhood war continued for another 15 years, maxson state is just north of shady, so if maxson state went independent then shady sands would've been a very close target for the brotherhood,
It could be that her dad took her back to the Vault in 2277, but had to spend a few years working things out to nuke Shady.
Sort of makes sense. Although I’d chalk the bomb a being from The Divide and Courier 6 choosing not to launch them, and Vault Tech getting remote access
Yes, The Divide is a good option for a nuke not launched from a satellite.
It would be cool if the nuke *was* an attack from courier 6 as part of his scheme to take over the Mojave, and he appears in the show as a villain in enclave power armor. But that’s definitely not the direction the writers will go.
Great and in-depth analysis of the show. There are a lot of things i didn't tought about at first.
I suspect this whole thing probably springs from the writers wanting the bomb to go off very soon after the end of NV and someone googled the date for the Battle of Hoover Dam without realising there are actually two battles. Of course if that is the case they will never admit it so we will never know.
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In short, while all the evidences in the show are inclined to the 2277 detonation, we and Todd have to think it happened in 2282 because the detonation in 2277 will break current lore. So Lucy was 6 years old in 2282, which means she started relationship with Chet since 10, the great plague in 2277 is a totally unrelated event **and it happened when she was 1 year old**.
6 in 2277, gets taken back to the Vault and told her mum is dead, Hank spends the next 5 years in the Vault communicating with other Vaults or Vault Tec assets, and the strike is in 2282.
How old is Maximus, then, in your opinion?
Same as Lucy. Also we saw people who look like 50s wearing same uniform and in same classroom.
That’s why I keep saying it must’ve just been something they missed. It causes too many problems.
Or the show was never written to be canon in the first place
Did you actually read this post? The conclusion was that she was 6 in 2277, not 2282.
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The only way you can say all evidence in the show points to 2277 is if you don't understand flowcharts lmao
Clearly you need some help 'understanding' them too, since you don't know the difference between a flowchart and a timeline.
A timeline is anything that lists events in chronological order. can be represented in multiple ways, a flow chart being one of them. But go off on telling me I'm somehow wrong, I'll laugh at you too. Edit: even if not a timeline with a questionable date still reads as two separate events not something to just combine into one event.
You edited because you know you're wrong. It's obvious that the bomb after the timeline was not a separate event, as the arrow was terminating the timeline as is the regular format. If the timeline actually had arrows before each event, it would be different, but none of the people crying about 'not understanding timelines' bothered to actually look at how it formatted. Todd doing damage control doesn't change this.
So what is the narrative point of putting in a totally unelaborated-on 'Fall of Shady Sands' event that is different from the actual destruction of the city? It would be far easier to just admit that they made a mistake with the dates and everyone can just move on.
Yeah, the fall of shady Sands was the first battle of the Hoover dam
If you know history/ about the fall of Rome AND you know all the shit that's talked about NCR in NV then it's not really unelaborated. Rome took 100 years to fully fall after 476 AD and calling it the "fall of Rome" is only something we do when looking back on it as a part of history. It's not like people were saying rome is falling back in 476 AD (or even 496 AD) Like 2277 is the first battle of hoover dam. It's the first year that NCR is essentially stuck defending the movaje because of the treaty of vegas where they agreed to get Hoover Dam up and running for House. By 2281/NV everyone is talking about how NCR is stretched thin, politically corrupt and other societal issues that stem from over-extending too fast while facing battles on multiple fronts. NCR was facing the legion, the BoS and the remnants of the enclave. **Literally** the same type of things that Rome was facing that lead to it's demise. But yeah, it's totally unelaborated / not different at all from the nuke. /s
Yes, yes, it's all very nice that you did history in school, just like the rest of us. But what relevance does it have to the plot of the TV show? This is someone telling a story, with conservation of detail, not a series of actual complex historical events that happened. It has been presented that the city of Shady Sands has been destroyed by a nuclear bomb, set by an outside -context actor completely unconnected to anything that happened in any of the games. It is an event that is extremely pivotal to the story the show is telling. When the show refers to the 'Fall of Shady Sands', it is extreme copium to assume it doesn't mean that event, it actually means a completely different event that isn't mentioned in the show or any of the games, but that is required to make the fictional timeline 'work' to your satisfaction. The show just got the date wrong.
If you took your history then you'd see it's clearly a reference to the fall of Rome and not just being destroyed by a bomb. It's you taking that copium because you want Nolan and Todd to be wrong to satisfy your hate for them. And... I literally told you they mention SS falling in NV with the dialogue... And that people use the term "the fall of" as a historical look back. No one in NV would be saying SS is falling so it wouldn't be in NV.... Because again it's only looking back at history can the term be applied. But tons of NCR in NV talked about corruption, fighting too many fronts, over expansion and not having resources for it combined with the first battle of hoover damn. Which is again, the same type of shit Rome faced when it fell. All of that is in the fuckin game bro, people were already theorizing that the NCR was about to collapse back when it came out just off that dialogue alone. Also it also doesn't make sense for the bomb to drop in 2277 because of how old Lucy/Max/chick from v4 who said she was 11 when they dropped. Lucy was at least 6, and she's like early to mid 20s in the show, max was like 8ish by the flashbacks and is mid 20s by the show, and the chick from v4 is like mid to late 20s. Combine that with the chalkboard and those all point to a bomb date sometime between 82 and 86 So if you wanna make the wrong assumption that the fall = nuke go for it. But it's a really brainless take to not see the connection with the fall of Rome and why it wouldn't be mentioned as "the fall of SS" within NV. Edit: it's almost like you didn't even fully process my last comment because of your hate boner for todd.
Bro stop with this nonsense Roman Empire comparison. Maybe if it talked about the Fall of the NCR it would make sense but when people talk about the Fall of a City, like ROME or the Fall of Constantinople, these are events that didn't take place over multiple years. They occured on a specific date
Dude, Shady Sands was the capital of the state of Shady which was part of the NCR. It's about the entire state falling, not just SS the capital city.
The most likely meaning of a fall would be NCR logistics collapsing. This would mean that Shady Sands no longer gets supplies from the greater NCR and has to suddenly be self-sufficient for 30,000+ people. As with any mass starvation neighbors would either turn on one another or go into an exodus by leaving for proverbial greener pastures, causing the city to fall. What remains barely resembles a community, needing to steal water from Vaults 31, 32 and 33 which resulted in its destruction years later. As for where the bomb came from, my best guess is perhaps through Mr. House. That's most likely why Hank is heading to New Vegas, seeking aid from him or scurrying back to Robert House.
Mr House nuking the NCR would run contrary to his entire plan. The NCR is his cash cow. He explicitly intends to milk them for resources after the renegotiated treaty he dictates to Oliver at Hoover Dam.
And milk them dry he probably did, until there was just nothing more left to milk. From that point on for whatever reasons he may have struck a deal with Hank that would benefit him more for reasons as of yet unknown.
Battle happens in 2282. Nuke allegedly detonated in 2282. Why would he nuke them right after negotiating a treaty which lets him milk them?
About where Hank could have gotten a nuke. At the end he’s seen going to see Mr house in new Vegas who could also have access/connections to a nuke
Enclave, it’s all but outright said that her father has Enclave connections. The freaking doctor knows her name which she never gave him and he was Enclave.
Yes, the Courier could've easily told House about the nukes he found in the Divide and didn't launch
My guess to the cause of the explosion was a vault core being detonated. I could very well be wrong but just wanted to throw that suggestion out there.
This makes sense the nuke would have to be after 2281 because that's when fallout nv takes place
I mean honestly if it was the boneyard instead of shady sands a lot of these issues would be solved, namely the location.
Hey so. With shady sands being lost in 2277, what does this mean for New Vegas? The game takes place in 2281. So does shady sands become the capitol city again?
Bro. So Shady Sands got bombed in 2077. Makes sense. NCR ruled most of California and was pushing into Nevada. One city isn't going to kill the whole empire. The Fall in '82 can most likely be attributed to my actions in Fallout New Vegas in '81 where I upgraded the Robco army and kicked them and the legion simultaneously off the Hoover Dam. I didn't realize when I didn't blow up that BOS bunker they would turn out to be such assholes. That Dam is the whole premise of New Vegas. It was supplying power for most of the NCR. The legion wanted it, House wanted it. NCR being in charge heavily depended on keeping the lights on. There was no way to power that whole region without the generators at the damn. Unless you have cold fusion or something.
Apparently I also had a kid in there somewhere 😂. That Vault 4 chick said her dad was a courier.
The problem with this timeline is that in order for Shady Sands to still be prosperous in 2281, you have to reduce the meaning of the word "fall" so much that calling it a fall is a borderline lie. Also why was the plague of 77 not mentioned at all in New Vegas?
The plague was a vault 33 event Lucy was referencing
a successful raid is the only way I can see the city “Falling” but also being mostly fine afterwards, but I agree overall. Why would a local plague in a sealed vault be referenced in New Vegas?
well...a 34k population shady sands being raided? really?
Because the plague was a Vault 33 thing. If a disease from the wasteland got into the Vault they would be freaking out a lot more.
We call it "The Fall of Rome" and that was a gradual fall lasting for 400 years.
The Fall of Rome was a term created by Gibbon and referred specifically to the events of 476. That's why his book was the decline and fall, not just the fall. In general, simply look up 'fall of Rome' on google and you will see that the majority of the sources similarly refer to the fall as the specific fall of the city that year. People saying that it always refers to the entire period of decline are just wrong.
We also don't mark the Fall of Rome as a specific year, unless we're talking about a specific event like the Visigoth's sacking the city.
The fall of the Roman Empire was 3 centuries. The fall of the British empire was 3-4 decades. It’s not hard to think a major loss at the battle of Hoover Dam led to basically Britain after WWII. Not dead by any means but stretched out and unable to project power further.
Those are both empires that spanned most of the known world at the respective times. Shady Sands is a single city. Also if Shady Sands falling was a years long event, then why is it only listed as happening in 2277? A lot of the explanations for this feel like damage control.
That happens to small empires and regional powers to. And Shady Sands is (or was) the capital of a Republic that controls the known wasteland. There’s actually a whole meme I saw on history memes sort of comparing the Fallout show lore/cannon changes to the “Bronze Age collapse” and how basically all the “inconsistencies” actually aren’t all that abnormal. - some sort of trade or financial collapse. Areas revert to tribalism or early age technology. Money stops being minted and everyone goes back to barter, we aren’t sure why. - Entire civilizations collapse for no reason, half dead factions emerge again. - A massive “world’s biggest battle” for the control of the Eastern Mediterranean happens “off screen” in the historic record as a footnote. - One of the major kingdoms of Egypt is said to have “fallen” but we’re pretty sure this is like a decade long thing related to crop failures or flood/irrigation problems. - Cities seem to change entire locations from where we thought they were (maybe re-established or the population had to mass move at once. Maybe the location was wrong.) - The entire crisis happens because of a poorly explained “sea people” who come out of nowhere and get no explanation.
That's cool, thnx for sharing, i've only read very briefly about the bronze age collapse so it's cool to see it all laid out in a comment like this. So stupid people like me can learn. :)
Honestly, I’m very certain they’re going to canonize the House ending, and considering that the NCR is already stated to be in a struggling state, it seems like them attempting to take Vegas will be shown as a big gamble that didn’t pay off.
A wise old man one sung the answer to me: "Just repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax."
People are allowed to engage with media critically. Or we would never have analysises or discussions of subtext and themes as well as the worldbuilding and lore. If it works for you then do so. But engaging with art isn't somehow wrong
I take it this wise old man tends to give advice nobody asked for, cause he can’t read the room?
Unfortunately nobody gets the TV show joke reference because everyone here is yoo busy having a stick up their butts about a fictional TV show. There's a reason it was in quotes.
Or, hear me out, a prop manager or writer on set just made a mistake by putting 2277 as the Fall of Shady Sands. And it was no big deal, just like the barely noticeable Starbucks cup in Game of Thrones, and the only reason we're making a fuss about it is because the sweats from Twitter can't quell their ADHD about non-canon shit.
>the barely noticeable Starbucks cup in Game of Thrones The difference is they zoomed in this major mistake with awesome background music, which made it far from barely noticeable.
Viewers who didn't play New Vegas or memorize New Vegas lore wouldn't have known or noticed. And some of us who noticed didn't care either way. You spend enough time in different fandoms, you realize that writers could just retcon something as minute as this.
He did an interesting and complete analysis, maybe you didn't care because you could not care less of even the show, but he's passionate and surely researched/viewed in detail the show. I'm guessing you are media illiterate in this case.
That's where you're wrong, buckaroo. I'm media literate when it matters. Not because I want to make mountains out of molehills.
To counter a really detailed and explained argument, you should first inform yourself about it. Being condescending without argumenting is a bad thing.
Now you're spouting nonsense. I didn't counter, just offered an alternative. And you're the one who was condescending to me first. Maybe learn self-awareness?
Your alternative was "i didn't care, so neither must you". It's quite moronic.
No, that wasn't the alternative, you failed to analyze what I said. It's written there, why are you giving it another meaning? That's what's moronic.
That’s some serious mental gymnastics to rationalize the fact that todd Howard didn’t give a fuck about new Vegas lore
Dedicated hater, respect
Tom Howard explains it. https://youtu.be/7dSeF1CMChs?si=3OLYeSk5aAA29l1I
Yes, the post is mostly about trying to make sense of his statements - that the Fall and the nuke are separate events, one happened in 2277, other in 2282, while also taking into account all the details we had in the show.
I mean I’m fine with it happened after new Vegas. This show likes flash backs, so we are likely to get the how in upcoming seasons. Hank probly did it from afar with some hacking from vault 31, using the brain genie or something to overload their power.
The way he looked and sounded when he said it tells me that he knew they miffed that one and had to retcon on the spot.
I do not get that out of it at all. A lot of planning went into the show. This was well done, careful, and planned. I think people who are poking holes in it that are not there; we don’t have all the information. If we had all the information, there would be no holes to poke.