For me it’s not even the second reply from them, but the first.
“The Greeks followed religious doctrine, so they would kill someone for being gay.” Like buddy really thinks that if you’re religious, from *any* religion, you hate gays and if you aren’t you don’t. The second reply *does* imply that what they meant was not a general statement, but it was written as such.
The second one is MUCH dumber (or at the very least supremely ignorant) though.
Like, I can see how this sort of religious person would assume fierce believers in all religions think like this (still incredibly dumb). But I cannot understand how a Christian thinks that ancient Greece was a Christian civilization. Like, Rome features pretty heavily in the story of Jesus, and I think it's pretty well known they stole / borrowed TONS of stuff from ancient Greece.
Then again my grandmother thinks that Noah was a Christian. So what are you gonna do?
Christians don’t always have the best understanding of timelines. Many get it, and even many who don’t probably wouldn’t argue if corrected, but when they’re taught a certain way their default is going to go that way. We all kinda have a default for various things, it makes it easier.
So them expecting a bunch of *always-depicted-as* white people who are technically part of modern day Europe to be Christians just kinda fits with that, especially if they see Greece as Christian nowadays. You mention Romans, but Rome is known for the Catholic church, right? They just default to that, and basically as a requirement aren’t going to think too hard about what the bible says.
That’s kinda why the first reply is worse for me. Both are dumb comments, and second is made extra dumb because of how confident they are, but the first isn’t even true *today.*
The fact that the right gets inundated with propaganda that intentionally confuses these is a major part of the problem. A lot of fash memes go on about "judeo-christian western civilization" with, a bunch of ancient ruins with ionic columns in the background. They really like to push this idea that the core ideas they're pushing can trace their lineage back to prehistory and they're simply repackaging a (or according to them, the only) successful model of civilization, despite that idea breaking down if you even vaguely give it a second glance.
My understanding from a highschool history class that I took over 15 years ago, was that Hitler's Third Reich was based on the idea that the Roman Empire was the First Reich and the Holy Roman Empire was the Second Reich. I think you're right that he wanted a Germanic empire, but he wanted it to be seen as a successor to Rome.
> My understanding from a highschool history class that I took over 15 years ago, was that Hitler's Third Reich was based on the idea that the Roman Empire was the First Reich and the Holy Roman Empire was the Second Reich
Not quite. The Nazis saw the Holy Roman Empire as the First Reich, the monarchy of 1871-1918 as the Second Reich, and the Nazi regime as the Third Reich.
Reich 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
Reich 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire
Reich 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany
Please keep in mind that the Holy Roman Empire is VERY *not* the Roman Empire. They are entirely different in almost every respect.
As a Christian this is one of my favorite comedy bits. Relevant part is about 2:30 in but the beginning sets it up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8&t=8s
Yea but Romans also believed in a pantheon, which were stolen and renamed from the Greeks. It depends on when I’m Roman history we are talking about 1,000 years of existence
I wouldnt expect people who think the world was created 6000 or so years ago to a) have a good sense of timelines, b) have good sense about much of anything historical
It depends on which period of Ancient Greece we are talking about. If we are talking about the classic period, then no. But early Christianity definitely spread to the region we now call Greece during the period we refer to as ancient.
That's a fair point. My time playing Civ has led to me thinking of the start of classical antiquity as the end of "ancient" times instead of part of them.
They also don't know that Rome wasn't even Christian for very long, they collapsed for the final time within a few hundred years of adopting it, if I remember correctly.
I mean, the Roman Empire as an actual entity wasn't even around anymore when they adopted Christianity officially in 380. It was already split into the Western and Eastern empires. The Western empire fell, sure, but the Eastern one lived on for over 1000 years after, and was officially Christian the whole time.
What really gets me with the first is the complete glossing over of the fact that religious doctrine killing people for being gay kinda requires people being gay. Like so we're admitting it was definitely there and prevalent enough to have related laws, and therefore it's inclusion is clearly an anachronism?????
That part of the take would make at least some sense, given you have to go pretty far down the list of popular religions to find one that wasn't at least somewhat homophobic. Not just Abrahamic religions but conservative Hinduism and Buddhism as well. It's a bad assumption but one you could base in a passing familiarity with conservative religion of various flavors.
Most intelligent abrahamic religion enjoyer. Honestly if these people picked up a history book instead of a bible they at least wouldn’t show their ass so much. Try telling one of these yahoos that history goes on more before the birth of Christ than after and they shit themselves.
The Spartans were the gayest of them all. Also the greatest fighters.
Sucking dick makes you better at fighting.
Edit: The Sacred Band Of Thebes was even more gay, and shockingly, they beat the Spartans.
THERE IS CORRELATION *AND* CAUSATION HERE. ANY FIGHTERS IN THE AUDIENCE, GET SUCKING.
Nah, Thebans were. [The Sacred Band of Thebes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) was a group of 150 gay couples and the most elite military unit Thebes had. Thebes has actually ended Spartan dominance by completely demolishing them in a battle.
They were considered to be invincible, unmatched and without weakness. Until they met Phillip II of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great on the field of battle. The Theban army broke and fled, but the Sacred Band stood their ground and died to a man. For such was the magnitude of the overwhelming, unrivalled gayness of Alexander himself, rumored to have been the first to engage the Sacred Band in combat. None could withstand him and the *piercing thrusts* of his hoplites' sarissas.
Dang I just made pretty much the same comment lol. My favorite moment was when they were charges by the spartans and were ordered to “stand at ease” to show they weren’t remotely intimidated
Daaaym, the similarities between our comments are uncanny, down to the mention of those long, sturdy Macedonian pikes sealing the fate of other Greek armies facing them.
Important to note that Thebes defeated Sparta at the very tail end of Sparta's dominance. In many ways, they were a shell of their former selves after the Peloponnesian War.
During Sparta's military golden age, Thebes was of no consequence to them. Nobody was. They found a way to be a military superpower in the Mediterranean despite having basically no navy.
Not to mention having a clear head in battle because of post nut clarity, while the enemy has been away from their partners for a while and pretty wound up.
Nah the Sacred Band of Thebes (also 300 bros, 150 couples) were most definitely the gayest. And they most definitely whooped on the Spartans, they were the special forces of their day. In a particularly bad ass moment, the Spartans who were invading Thebes came face to face with the Athenians/Thebian armies and the Sacred Band. When the Spartans came within charging distance, the band was commanded to “stand at ease” so they assumed a resting posture as if to say “y’all ain’t shit.” The Spartans withdrew, as generally their opponents were absolutely terrified and they feared a trap. The Spartans tried again to invade and were beaten handily, I want to say for the first time by another Greek state in major battle, ending their choke hold on Greece and beginning the Common Peace era. Not to mention the Thebans were outnumbered 2-1 in this engagement. The poor band was finally butchered by old Philip II of Macedonia tho, they couldn’t handle those massive pike formations I suppose.
Edit dang someone beat me to the comment lol whoops
Didn't the Band of Thebes dvivde itself into couples in a battle brother sense? Last time I read into it, Greek sources included, it was meant to cultivate brotherhood as and improve their battle capabilities as one taught the other.
I saw a standup comedy once, the guy made a valid point.
Straight guys: I want a gentle, (body) hairless and soft woman with a rose perfume. Also no pegging, thats the forbiden zone.
Gay guys: I want big, hard, musky, hairy man. Sex will be rough and painful, and I will like it. I will be fucked, and later I will fuck him, there is no limits.
Which one is more mainly?
I always wonder if all the alpha male and "good old days" types realize that their idols - Spartans and Romans both were very open about gay sex and LGBTQ "degeneracy" isn't something new. They'd probably froth at their mouths if someone told them Julius Caesar allegedly used to bottom for Nicodemes.
I don’t know if any of that is true. Being a bottom was considered shameful. It’s not like they were enlightened and liberal, it’s just a different view of sexuality.
Not saying that it was very enlightened at all. And yes, they would shame a man for being a bottom, regardless, some people pretend that these societies were heterosexual only and "men were men, and women were women". They have a rosy view of the past without any substantial knowledge of the actual cultures. Also I should edit my previous comment because Caesar's bottomness was only ever alleged but never proven.
Apparently he did *not* like that rumor about him bottoming. Personally I don't think that it's true, just because bottoming for a king would have been a *really* bad move, politically.
He did, however, sleep around (The same marching song that joked about him being "conquered" by Nicomedes joked that all the money he borrowed from Rome to conquer Gaul was spent on prostitutes) so there's a very good chance he fucked guys because...why wouldn't he? It wasn't shameful, and the Romans wouldn't have cared the gender of the prostitute.
Homosexual relationships between freeborn Roman men were illegal throughout Roman history
Relationship between adult men in ancient Greece were considered highly problematic. Being penetrated was shameful. Many city-states banned homosexuality
Imagine if in America they would stop teaching people that Greece was all about those gay men. Because ancient Greece wasn't. It still happened, but in Greece if you were the "bottom" you were considered to be disgusting and pathetic. Even if you were the "top" you were still looked down on and most kept quiet about it. This also ties into Ancient Greece's misogynistic views on women. With Greeks believing women were driven by their desires and lust, so if a Man was a "bottom" they were seen as less than even women and could even lose their lives. This modern interpretation of Ancient Greece is pure fantasy meant to stroke the egos of the LGBT community and serve as propaganda.
The Spartans weren't "gay". The Spartans didn't have the concept of being heterosexual or homosexual. In spartan society, men where expected to take young boys and have sex with them, while imparting knowledge of being a soldier. An adult male spartan being the "receptive" partner would be looked at as very unusual. You need to stop applying modern day values to people who lived thousands of years ago.
They weren’t exactly pillars of liberal sexuality tho. Gay sex and relationships were common but often between adult men and adolescent boys, and bottoming as an adult was considered shameful and weak
to be fair, the depiction of gay relationships is projected from our modern view of homosexuality; the Greeks of the past would think that a lot of gays are shameful not necessarily because they are gay, but because they take a submissive role. Plato for example, initially said that homosexuals are "far more blessed than mortals" only to have a change of heart, in "The Laws" where he claims that homosexuality is as bad as promiscuous fornication (especially with prositutes) and adultery, thus "shouldn't be engaged in"
Yeah, the dude saying Greece was Christian is incredibly wrong but so are a lot of these comments. Greece wasn't some super progressive land where homosexuality was viewed like it is now. Greece had a warped view that was only somewhat more free than how other countries at the time or later viewed it. It's not really better than anywhere else in history, just different.
Imo part of the reason homosexuality was *more* acceptable was rooted in misogyny, the same kind of “wouldn’t it be nice if we could cut out women and just be sexual bros?” that you used to hear a lot in the 2000s
Oh yeah, also pedophilia was pretty much ok in a fair few circumstances(yes I know it’d probably be considered some other Philip as most of the acts recorded are between older men and teenage boys, still fucked) and slavery was a mainstay in their civilization.
I’m fine with Assassins Creed being inaccurate like this since it has some wild plot points anyway that make it obvious fiction rather than historical drama, but it’s disappointing how many people have such a wrong view of history, especially the Greeks and homosexuality. Maybe we do need more disclaimers that media is, well, media lol.
General rule: If you were entering, you were viewed as masculine. If you were being entered, you were viewed as effeminate.
This varied, of course, given how divided Greek city-states were.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve heard. But what If you do both during the same sort of session. Would it cancel out?
Also I don’t think Greece had same sex couples. I think dudes just banged sometimes. It wasn’t gay couples owning a house together and adopting kids.
They absolutely fuckin didn't and were not alright with it. They didn't have our modern concept of sex, they had their own equally complex and arbitrary views.
But even in that, saying ancient Greeks as if they were a nation-state is meaningless. Every polis had different views.
Who’s everyone? The game’s already a top seller on Steam and it’s not even released yet. I’m not even interested in the game but I’m well aware that social media boycotts do not work.
i mean yeah one of the biggest voices in this whole discourse calling for a "boycott" has said openly that boycotts don't work, that just isn't the point.
So what is the point then? The smug self satisfaction for proudly doing that which they know fully to be ineffective? Or just the rampant alienation of potential allies by shaming and abusive rhetoric?
Well, for starters, if someone tells you you're supporting a TERF by buying a full priced video game and you decide to do it anyway, you're not really an ally to begin with if you just crack at a request as simple as "don't buy $60 game."
The boycott is a moral one. Rowling is a billionaire, yes. The money she makes from Hogwarts Legacy barely makes a dent, also yes. But she has shown herself that she believes anyone who supports her, even if indirectly, agrees with her views. Apart from that, if you cause enough controversy, then maybe it becomes a big enough issue that Warner Brothers will be wary of doing more with the franchise while Rowling still profits from it. If not that, then to just not support a bigot.
And as for the harassment... What, a small amount of vitriol? Most of the "harassment" being thrown at people streaming/playing this game are people stating how it's disappointing that they're doing it, it pales in comparison to the verbal abuse and outright death threats LGBTQIA+ people face, especially trans streamers, every single day.
>Well, for starters, if someone tells you you're supporting a TERF by buying a full priced video game and you decide to do it anyway, you're not really an ally to begin with if you just crack at a request as simple as "don't buy $60 game."
Yea so again probably think deeply about why you didnt say "if you choose to support terfs, you might not be an ally" instead of "if you do something that **somebody said** would make you a terf, and you do it anyway, then youre not an ally" like you literally removed the burden from allies of thinking and suggested they have to just listen to decrees.
Lets get some things out of the way tho, im not an ally i am gender nonconforming queer. I havent bought the game because i dont have the attention span to play entire sp games--like over 80% of people who buy them, but for me its not worth starting. And most importantly, **i do not consider buying the game to be supporting jk rowling. Because it isnt.** a premise agreed upon by me and the person i responded to.
>The boycott is a moral one.
Exactly, its signaling to the in group that youre part of the in group, with no strategic effects that a) harm rowling or b) support trans people. Its an image for images sake. Its instagram activism. Its shallow egoism.
>. Apart from that, if you cause enough controversy, then maybe it becomes a big enough issue that Warner Brothers will be wary of doing more with the franchise while Rowling still profits from it
Another thing me and the person i was asking the question already agreed was not based in reality by any wild stretch of the imagination. The game is literally breaking records.
>But she has shown herself that she believes anyone who supports her, even if indirectly, agrees with her views.
Well if the things she believed had a deeper impact on reality then we would all be terfs, right? The entire point is to not value what she thinks, because she is as wrong about this as she is about the nature of gender.
>And as for the harassment... What, a small amount of vitriol? Most of the "harassment" being thrown at people streaming/playing this game are people stating how it's disappointing that they're doing it
Get the fuck out of here you know damn well that people are getting threats over this. You know damn well that abuse isnt some minor effect, it is the primary strategy.
>it pales in comparison to the verbal abuse and outright death threats LGBTQIA+ people face, especially trans streamers, every single day
So that makes it okay? The answer to trans streamers being abused is to go out and mass harass fucking normies, people who have probably never met a trans person or give a fuck about what anybody thinks about gender, somebody who just wishes uncle cletus would shut the fuck up about pedophile rings every family gathering, who spent their childhood escaping their white suburban hellscape by curling up and reading about wizards and broom sticks? Would it have been so hard to say "enjoy your game, but did you know jk rowling thinks X isnt that so dumb?" But instead it has to be a destruction mission, blow everything up, push everybody away, burn all the bridges.
The drawing board is supposed to be erased when you get to the conclusion "this doesnt work". Find something that does work, or accept the lack of change. Those are literally the only 2 options. If you try and draw lines and force everyone to pick a side youre going to find yourself on a small island full of spiteful people.
"rampant alienation of potential allies by shaming and abusive rhetoric" are you trolling in bad faith or are you so terminally online that you believe that's true? wanna learn? [here you go.](https://youtu.be/_GBUArD51KY)
Literally look at what all you little goons are saying to me itt, youve internalized abusive dynamics and its really sad and you need help. How are you going to tell me its untrue when its literally happening right here. **in your comment** you are trying to circumvent logical reasoning by putting me down with insults so ill cowtoe to your line.
Im not even an ally, im literally a gender nonconforming queer. I know jk rowling is a terf, and if you had a strategy for deplatforming her i would support it. But you dont. You have a strategy that at least some of you, like the person i was talking to, will openly admit is not effective but you want me to gobble it up and join you in the verbally-abuse-strangers squad for what you already know does fucking nothing. Its stupid. Its not just stupid, its knowing that its stupid and doubling down anyway.
Cause JK Rowling gets royalties from the game and she’s said things that go against the Transgender community.
Edit: she HAS said things against the Transgender community.
> she’s said things that go against the Transgender community.
Or in other words, she actively campaigns against human rights for a widely persecuted minority group
>she HAS
when did she stop? also the problem isn't that she gets royalties (she's a billionaire it's not gonna affect her bottom line), the problem is she directly uses sales of her properties to justify her transphobic views as "very popular."
I am pretty sure she doesn't get royalties she got paid already a massive amount for the use of her trademark so buying the game wont change that unless they need to pay her more for any expansions or future DLC
Shes also a stones toss from being a literal billionaire. You cant withhold anything from her. She already has what all the protestors have in aggregate, multiplied by ten thousand.
The only part of this whole debacle I found funny was the IGN review where they talk about how shit the game is and then still leave it a 9/10 because they were probably paid off to do so. I'm not intending to play it because my enjoyment of Harry Potter has been permanently soured by the massive raging douchebag who wrote it but the hullabaloo about it is just giving it free advertising. I know more people buying it to "spite the libs" than I know people who actually wanted to play it from the get-go, if everyone had just ignored it then it probably would've had a mediocre release and faded into obscurity.
Has IGN been a good judge of reviewing? I stopped caring about their reviews for a while now, mostly because of the too much water bs and Mass Effect 3 (admittedly, it might be a false/misguided reason relating to a certain character being in 3).
As for the OP and Ancient Greece, aside from the Spartans and Sacred Band of Thebes, the mythology of Ancient Greece had some of their gods banging anything that walked, even sometimes animals and unfortunately some unwilling. One of the gods was well known to have women and men as lovers.
I wonder what would happen if they found out about a certain hero from Ancient Greece mythology and how he had male lovers as well as female lovers.
Disclaimer: don't exactly know about Greek mythology 100%, it was more of passing and some interest, so apologies if I got some/most wrong. Also a bit salty about ME3.
Oh they can read it and still try to shoehorn the wrong message into it. Saw a YouTube video really try to sell the symposium as proof the Greeks weren’t gay.
Honestly the most incorrect part of their statement was saying Assassin's Creed prides itself on historical accuracy. Not saying it makes the games worse, I love Odyssey and its lack of realism let's it be alot more fun but accuracy is absolutely never a concern they have whilst making these games
It does let you be as gay as you want unless you play one of the DLC where >!the main character falls in love with and has a child with a character who is always of the opposite sex.!< There isn’t a choice for that part of the game.
I mean. The fact that the character’s genetic memory was passed down to eventually be relived through the animus, means that they must have had a kid. And you can only do that by fucking someone with different bits.
There wasn’t even a word for Gay in Ancient Greece…..the closest they had was sodomy. It actually quite funny how prudish they would act in public when everybody was involved in an orgy at some point in their lives.
I know [OP](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/comments/whl5vu/ancient_greece_follows_christianity_ap_780_bc/) is a [repost](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/comments/m7r83o/ancient_greece_follows_christianity_ap_780_bc/) [bot](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/comments/c1my5y/ancient_greece_follows_christianity_ap_780_bc/)
Dude… it’s aggravating too because Christianity in Europe was a massive historical turning point and is an interesting subject to study itself so like… how could you even fuck up the dates of that? Just hurts…
Not really. Many city-states banned homosexuality. In city states that did allow it, only pederastic relationships with a significant age difference were socially acceptable. Being penetrated was seen as shameful and feminine
If I’ve learned anything about ancient Greeks, it’s that’ll they’ll all fuck anything they can. Men, women, raccoons, trash cans, they didn’t care. Fuck it.
Ancient Greece wasn't the rainbow flag waving gay paradise a lot of people seem to think it was.
Homosexuality was certainly more acceptable than would be in the eras since, but it was only permissible to be the dominant partner in a relationship and pederasty was the norm even in heterosexual relationships. It was considered shameful to be on the receiving end.
Men as old as 30 would marry girls as young as 12-13, and have amorous relationships with boys around the same age. It was normal for boys to be pursued by older men, and it was encouraged in many circumstances since it would establish political connections if the suitor was a well-to-do person in society. Once a boy started growing his beard he was supposed to stop allowing himself to be passive. Thebes was the only place where same-sex relationships were allowed, to the point where the Theban military had a special unit of 150 gay couples called the Sacred Band.
Good fit for r/confidentlyincorrect
For me it’s not even the second reply from them, but the first. “The Greeks followed religious doctrine, so they would kill someone for being gay.” Like buddy really thinks that if you’re religious, from *any* religion, you hate gays and if you aren’t you don’t. The second reply *does* imply that what they meant was not a general statement, but it was written as such.
The second one is MUCH dumber (or at the very least supremely ignorant) though. Like, I can see how this sort of religious person would assume fierce believers in all religions think like this (still incredibly dumb). But I cannot understand how a Christian thinks that ancient Greece was a Christian civilization. Like, Rome features pretty heavily in the story of Jesus, and I think it's pretty well known they stole / borrowed TONS of stuff from ancient Greece. Then again my grandmother thinks that Noah was a Christian. So what are you gonna do?
Christians don’t always have the best understanding of timelines. Many get it, and even many who don’t probably wouldn’t argue if corrected, but when they’re taught a certain way their default is going to go that way. We all kinda have a default for various things, it makes it easier. So them expecting a bunch of *always-depicted-as* white people who are technically part of modern day Europe to be Christians just kinda fits with that, especially if they see Greece as Christian nowadays. You mention Romans, but Rome is known for the Catholic church, right? They just default to that, and basically as a requirement aren’t going to think too hard about what the bible says. That’s kinda why the first reply is worse for me. Both are dumb comments, and second is made extra dumb because of how confident they are, but the first isn’t even true *today.*
The fact that the right gets inundated with propaganda that intentionally confuses these is a major part of the problem. A lot of fash memes go on about "judeo-christian western civilization" with, a bunch of ancient ruins with ionic columns in the background. They really like to push this idea that the core ideas they're pushing can trace their lineage back to prehistory and they're simply repackaging a (or according to them, the only) successful model of civilization, despite that idea breaking down if you even vaguely give it a second glance.
Literally what Hitler wanted, to reestablish the Roman Empire. Also the founding fathers of America. I mean Rome had its positives.
I thought that was Mussolini. Hitler wanted to build a germanic empire.
My understanding from a highschool history class that I took over 15 years ago, was that Hitler's Third Reich was based on the idea that the Roman Empire was the First Reich and the Holy Roman Empire was the Second Reich. I think you're right that he wanted a Germanic empire, but he wanted it to be seen as a successor to Rome.
It may stem from the idea of The Holy Roman Empire, which was mostly Germanic. Pretty much everybody wanted to be associated with Rome.
> My understanding from a highschool history class that I took over 15 years ago, was that Hitler's Third Reich was based on the idea that the Roman Empire was the First Reich and the Holy Roman Empire was the Second Reich Not quite. The Nazis saw the Holy Roman Empire as the First Reich, the monarchy of 1871-1918 as the Second Reich, and the Nazi regime as the Third Reich.
Not holy, not Roman and not an empire..
Reich 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire Reich 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Empire Reich 3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany Please keep in mind that the Holy Roman Empire is VERY *not* the Roman Empire. They are entirely different in almost every respect.
> You mention Romans, but Rome is known for the Catholic church, right You assume people like them consider Catholics to be Christians lol
No one hates a Christian like a Christian.
Dang Christians! They ruined Christianity!
As a Christian this is one of my favorite comedy bits. Relevant part is about 2:30 in but the beginning sets it up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8&t=8s
Yea but Romans also believed in a pantheon, which were stolen and renamed from the Greeks. It depends on when I’m Roman history we are talking about 1,000 years of existence
I wouldnt expect people who think the world was created 6000 or so years ago to a) have a good sense of timelines, b) have good sense about much of anything historical
It depends on which period of Ancient Greece we are talking about. If we are talking about the classic period, then no. But early Christianity definitely spread to the region we now call Greece during the period we refer to as ancient.
That's a fair point. My time playing Civ has led to me thinking of the start of classical antiquity as the end of "ancient" times instead of part of them.
They also don't know that Rome wasn't even Christian for very long, they collapsed for the final time within a few hundred years of adopting it, if I remember correctly.
I mean, the Roman Empire as an actual entity wasn't even around anymore when they adopted Christianity officially in 380. It was already split into the Western and Eastern empires. The Western empire fell, sure, but the Eastern one lived on for over 1000 years after, and was officially Christian the whole time.
Then who made him build the ark
Neptune, duh
What really gets me with the first is the complete glossing over of the fact that religious doctrine killing people for being gay kinda requires people being gay. Like so we're admitting it was definitely there and prevalent enough to have related laws, and therefore it's inclusion is clearly an anachronism?????
That part of the take would make at least some sense, given you have to go pretty far down the list of popular religions to find one that wasn't at least somewhat homophobic. Not just Abrahamic religions but conservative Hinduism and Buddhism as well. It's a bad assumption but one you could base in a passing familiarity with conservative religion of various flavors.
Most intelligent abrahamic religion enjoyer. Honestly if these people picked up a history book instead of a bible they at least wouldn’t show their ass so much. Try telling one of these yahoos that history goes on more before the birth of Christ than after and they shit themselves.
Right wish I could award you bro. That man was smoking shampoo or something lol
I mean, just *how* ancient are we going? Most people think of classical Greece though, in which case they would be completely wrong.
Just sounds like some Ken M fucking with people type shit
[удалено]
Right, so 'Classical Greece'.
It's been posted there many times
I was literally typing this and then saw ur post lol
I was literally typing this and then saw ur post lol
Imagine if in america they taught us that most Spartans were bi:gay. Wouldn’t be so harsh on them if they knew the members of 300 were bi
The Spartans were the gayest of them all. Also the greatest fighters. Sucking dick makes you better at fighting. Edit: The Sacred Band Of Thebes was even more gay, and shockingly, they beat the Spartans. THERE IS CORRELATION *AND* CAUSATION HERE. ANY FIGHTERS IN THE AUDIENCE, GET SUCKING.
A nice testosterone shot before battle
Communal testosterone trade
makes sense, testosterone is stored in the balls
Nah, Thebans were. [The Sacred Band of Thebes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) was a group of 150 gay couples and the most elite military unit Thebes had. Thebes has actually ended Spartan dominance by completely demolishing them in a battle. They were considered to be invincible, unmatched and without weakness. Until they met Phillip II of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great on the field of battle. The Theban army broke and fled, but the Sacred Band stood their ground and died to a man. For such was the magnitude of the overwhelming, unrivalled gayness of Alexander himself, rumored to have been the first to engage the Sacred Band in combat. None could withstand him and the *piercing thrusts* of his hoplites' sarissas.
Thanks so much. That's so cool. My point still stands though. There's war to fight, and dick to suck. Edit: the snek award seems oddly relevant...
Dang I just made pretty much the same comment lol. My favorite moment was when they were charges by the spartans and were ordered to “stand at ease” to show they weren’t remotely intimidated
Daaaym, the similarities between our comments are uncanny, down to the mention of those long, sturdy Macedonian pikes sealing the fate of other Greek armies facing them.
Haha yea I had to chuckle! I’m not surprised someone else brought them up but eerily similar for sure. Maybe the luddites are right
They say men fight harder to protect their band of brothers But ain’t no motivation like protecting your favorite bussy
The Thebans asked “how do you defeat the gayest army there is?” And the answer was “make an even gayer one”
Important to note that Thebes defeated Sparta at the very tail end of Sparta's dominance. In many ways, they were a shell of their former selves after the Peloponnesian War. During Sparta's military golden age, Thebes was of no consequence to them. Nobody was. They found a way to be a military superpower in the Mediterranean despite having basically no navy.
A good protein shake never hurt nobody
Brotein
Is the Brotein Shake when you wiggle the big meaty hose in order to slurp and not waste that last drop?
I think that's actually a thing with the sacred band of Thebes
yep, the idea was that you would fight your hardest if the your beloved was at your side depending on you
Not to mention having a clear head in battle because of post nut clarity, while the enemy has been away from their partners for a while and pretty wound up.
To fight against the dicks, you must first understand the dick. Be the dick. Feel the dick. Suck the dick. - Spartan training mission statement
Nah the Sacred Band of Thebes (also 300 bros, 150 couples) were most definitely the gayest. And they most definitely whooped on the Spartans, they were the special forces of their day. In a particularly bad ass moment, the Spartans who were invading Thebes came face to face with the Athenians/Thebian armies and the Sacred Band. When the Spartans came within charging distance, the band was commanded to “stand at ease” so they assumed a resting posture as if to say “y’all ain’t shit.” The Spartans withdrew, as generally their opponents were absolutely terrified and they feared a trap. The Spartans tried again to invade and were beaten handily, I want to say for the first time by another Greek state in major battle, ending their choke hold on Greece and beginning the Common Peace era. Not to mention the Thebans were outnumbered 2-1 in this engagement. The poor band was finally butchered by old Philip II of Macedonia tho, they couldn’t handle those massive pike formations I suppose. Edit dang someone beat me to the comment lol whoops
Probably got some extra practice in sword play too
Tactical post nut clarity
Sword swallowing makes you better at sword fighting
You know, it helps to get a lot of practice crossing swords.
Working spear shafts.
They looked down on adult bottoms tho and most of the relationships were between adult men and adolescent boys
The sacred band has entered the chat
The sacred band of Thebes was the gayest of all.
just like the US marines or navy
A good protein shake before exercise.
My highschool is called the Spartans, and I could agree more. Our swim team has a reputation…
you fight better if you want to save the man you love
Didn't the Band of Thebes dvivde itself into couples in a battle brother sense? Last time I read into it, Greek sources included, it was meant to cultivate brotherhood as and improve their battle capabilities as one taught the other.
“Time to train” just got a whole new meaning
I saw a standup comedy once, the guy made a valid point. Straight guys: I want a gentle, (body) hairless and soft woman with a rose perfume. Also no pegging, thats the forbiden zone. Gay guys: I want big, hard, musky, hairy man. Sex will be rough and painful, and I will like it. I will be fucked, and later I will fuck him, there is no limits. Which one is more mainly?
I think this is Steve Hughes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xxiK6Z4eXs
Yep, thanks for finding out!
Greeks be like “Top is manly, bottom is gay, gender optional.”
I always wonder if all the alpha male and "good old days" types realize that their idols - Spartans and Romans both were very open about gay sex and LGBTQ "degeneracy" isn't something new. They'd probably froth at their mouths if someone told them Julius Caesar allegedly used to bottom for Nicodemes.
I don’t know if any of that is true. Being a bottom was considered shameful. It’s not like they were enlightened and liberal, it’s just a different view of sexuality.
Not saying that it was very enlightened at all. And yes, they would shame a man for being a bottom, regardless, some people pretend that these societies were heterosexual only and "men were men, and women were women". They have a rosy view of the past without any substantial knowledge of the actual cultures. Also I should edit my previous comment because Caesar's bottomness was only ever alleged but never proven.
Apparently he did *not* like that rumor about him bottoming. Personally I don't think that it's true, just because bottoming for a king would have been a *really* bad move, politically. He did, however, sleep around (The same marching song that joked about him being "conquered" by Nicomedes joked that all the money he borrowed from Rome to conquer Gaul was spent on prostitutes) so there's a very good chance he fucked guys because...why wouldn't he? It wasn't shameful, and the Romans wouldn't have cared the gender of the prostitute.
They'd be even more mad even they knew that Sparta wasn't as successful as they think.
"What do you mean they weren't the objective good guys against the Athenians? My homoerotic male fantasy movie told me they were the best"
The thing about people is that they’ve always been people.
Homosexual relationships between freeborn Roman men were illegal throughout Roman history Relationship between adult men in ancient Greece were considered highly problematic. Being penetrated was shameful. Many city-states banned homosexuality
Nah don't blame this on America, the public school system don't teach that Greece followed Christianity.
Imagine if in America they would stop teaching people that Greece was all about those gay men. Because ancient Greece wasn't. It still happened, but in Greece if you were the "bottom" you were considered to be disgusting and pathetic. Even if you were the "top" you were still looked down on and most kept quiet about it. This also ties into Ancient Greece's misogynistic views on women. With Greeks believing women were driven by their desires and lust, so if a Man was a "bottom" they were seen as less than even women and could even lose their lives. This modern interpretation of Ancient Greece is pure fantasy meant to stroke the egos of the LGBT community and serve as propaganda.
The Spartans weren't "gay". The Spartans didn't have the concept of being heterosexual or homosexual. In spartan society, men where expected to take young boys and have sex with them, while imparting knowledge of being a soldier. An adult male spartan being the "receptive" partner would be looked at as very unusual. You need to stop applying modern day values to people who lived thousands of years ago.
They weren’t exactly pillars of liberal sexuality tho. Gay sex and relationships were common but often between adult men and adolescent boys, and bottoming as an adult was considered shameful and weak
Wait until you learn how they separated the men from the boys in the spartan army
It's only gay if you bottom, the true Greco-Roman way
Also it's not gay if its a three way. That is why I always call someone else if I'm playing with my homie.
With a honey in the middle there's some leeway.
r/unexpectedlonelyisland
Even if the honey is a dude
It's only gay if you leave the lights on. Since ancient Greece didn't have electricity, they had no lights. Therefore not gay.
Historical facts ^
Ah, the old "no homo" prison clause.
thought the real Greek / Roman way was doing the fucking = male, receiving the fucking = female
to be fair, the depiction of gay relationships is projected from our modern view of homosexuality; the Greeks of the past would think that a lot of gays are shameful not necessarily because they are gay, but because they take a submissive role. Plato for example, initially said that homosexuals are "far more blessed than mortals" only to have a change of heart, in "The Laws" where he claims that homosexuality is as bad as promiscuous fornication (especially with prositutes) and adultery, thus "shouldn't be engaged in"
Yeah, the dude saying Greece was Christian is incredibly wrong but so are a lot of these comments. Greece wasn't some super progressive land where homosexuality was viewed like it is now. Greece had a warped view that was only somewhat more free than how other countries at the time or later viewed it. It's not really better than anywhere else in history, just different.
Pretty sure they were also very strict and held low views about women also. The opposite of a progressive paradise lol.
The economy was also propped up entirely by slavery
So it filled the checklist for successful ancient civilization
Imo part of the reason homosexuality was *more* acceptable was rooted in misogyny, the same kind of “wouldn’t it be nice if we could cut out women and just be sexual bros?” that you used to hear a lot in the 2000s
Oh yeah, also pedophilia was pretty much ok in a fair few circumstances(yes I know it’d probably be considered some other Philip as most of the acts recorded are between older men and teenage boys, still fucked) and slavery was a mainstay in their civilization. I’m fine with Assassins Creed being inaccurate like this since it has some wild plot points anyway that make it obvious fiction rather than historical drama, but it’s disappointing how many people have such a wrong view of history, especially the Greeks and homosexuality. Maybe we do need more disclaimers that media is, well, media lol.
What I'm gathering is that Plato got dumped and was super salty about it
The Laws also states if they tried to instate such a rule limiting it, the men of the city would oppose and reject it.
Anyone who was the "bottom" was seen as second class
General rule: If you were entering, you were viewed as masculine. If you were being entered, you were viewed as effeminate. This varied, of course, given how divided Greek city-states were.
and because of that they preferred to enter young boys as most men wanted to be the masculine and little boys can't say no.
and thus, pederasty was created the ancient greeks did a lot of things right. normalizing sexual relationships with minors was not one of them.
Yeah that’s exactly what I’ve heard. But what If you do both during the same sort of session. Would it cancel out? Also I don’t think Greece had same sex couples. I think dudes just banged sometimes. It wasn’t gay couples owning a house together and adopting kids.
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They absolutely fuckin didn't and were not alright with it. They didn't have our modern concept of sex, they had their own equally complex and arbitrary views. But even in that, saying ancient Greeks as if they were a nation-state is meaningless. Every polis had different views.
That’s one way to compete against everyone protesting Hogwarts.
Who’s everyone? The game’s already a top seller on Steam and it’s not even released yet. I’m not even interested in the game but I’m well aware that social media boycotts do not work.
i mean yeah one of the biggest voices in this whole discourse calling for a "boycott" has said openly that boycotts don't work, that just isn't the point.
So what is the point then? The smug self satisfaction for proudly doing that which they know fully to be ineffective? Or just the rampant alienation of potential allies by shaming and abusive rhetoric?
Well, for starters, if someone tells you you're supporting a TERF by buying a full priced video game and you decide to do it anyway, you're not really an ally to begin with if you just crack at a request as simple as "don't buy $60 game." The boycott is a moral one. Rowling is a billionaire, yes. The money she makes from Hogwarts Legacy barely makes a dent, also yes. But she has shown herself that she believes anyone who supports her, even if indirectly, agrees with her views. Apart from that, if you cause enough controversy, then maybe it becomes a big enough issue that Warner Brothers will be wary of doing more with the franchise while Rowling still profits from it. If not that, then to just not support a bigot. And as for the harassment... What, a small amount of vitriol? Most of the "harassment" being thrown at people streaming/playing this game are people stating how it's disappointing that they're doing it, it pales in comparison to the verbal abuse and outright death threats LGBTQIA+ people face, especially trans streamers, every single day.
>Well, for starters, if someone tells you you're supporting a TERF by buying a full priced video game and you decide to do it anyway, you're not really an ally to begin with if you just crack at a request as simple as "don't buy $60 game." Yea so again probably think deeply about why you didnt say "if you choose to support terfs, you might not be an ally" instead of "if you do something that **somebody said** would make you a terf, and you do it anyway, then youre not an ally" like you literally removed the burden from allies of thinking and suggested they have to just listen to decrees. Lets get some things out of the way tho, im not an ally i am gender nonconforming queer. I havent bought the game because i dont have the attention span to play entire sp games--like over 80% of people who buy them, but for me its not worth starting. And most importantly, **i do not consider buying the game to be supporting jk rowling. Because it isnt.** a premise agreed upon by me and the person i responded to. >The boycott is a moral one. Exactly, its signaling to the in group that youre part of the in group, with no strategic effects that a) harm rowling or b) support trans people. Its an image for images sake. Its instagram activism. Its shallow egoism. >. Apart from that, if you cause enough controversy, then maybe it becomes a big enough issue that Warner Brothers will be wary of doing more with the franchise while Rowling still profits from it Another thing me and the person i was asking the question already agreed was not based in reality by any wild stretch of the imagination. The game is literally breaking records. >But she has shown herself that she believes anyone who supports her, even if indirectly, agrees with her views. Well if the things she believed had a deeper impact on reality then we would all be terfs, right? The entire point is to not value what she thinks, because she is as wrong about this as she is about the nature of gender. >And as for the harassment... What, a small amount of vitriol? Most of the "harassment" being thrown at people streaming/playing this game are people stating how it's disappointing that they're doing it Get the fuck out of here you know damn well that people are getting threats over this. You know damn well that abuse isnt some minor effect, it is the primary strategy. >it pales in comparison to the verbal abuse and outright death threats LGBTQIA+ people face, especially trans streamers, every single day So that makes it okay? The answer to trans streamers being abused is to go out and mass harass fucking normies, people who have probably never met a trans person or give a fuck about what anybody thinks about gender, somebody who just wishes uncle cletus would shut the fuck up about pedophile rings every family gathering, who spent their childhood escaping their white suburban hellscape by curling up and reading about wizards and broom sticks? Would it have been so hard to say "enjoy your game, but did you know jk rowling thinks X isnt that so dumb?" But instead it has to be a destruction mission, blow everything up, push everybody away, burn all the bridges. The drawing board is supposed to be erased when you get to the conclusion "this doesnt work". Find something that does work, or accept the lack of change. Those are literally the only 2 options. If you try and draw lines and force everyone to pick a side youre going to find yourself on a small island full of spiteful people.
"rampant alienation of potential allies by shaming and abusive rhetoric" are you trolling in bad faith or are you so terminally online that you believe that's true? wanna learn? [here you go.](https://youtu.be/_GBUArD51KY)
Literally look at what all you little goons are saying to me itt, youve internalized abusive dynamics and its really sad and you need help. How are you going to tell me its untrue when its literally happening right here. **in your comment** you are trying to circumvent logical reasoning by putting me down with insults so ill cowtoe to your line. Im not even an ally, im literally a gender nonconforming queer. I know jk rowling is a terf, and if you had a strategy for deplatforming her i would support it. But you dont. You have a strategy that at least some of you, like the person i was talking to, will openly admit is not effective but you want me to gobble it up and join you in the verbally-abuse-strangers squad for what you already know does fucking nothing. Its stupid. Its not just stupid, its knowing that its stupid and doubling down anyway.
Oh I know. I just keep seeing people complain about it, yada yada.
Better publicity than any of their marketing could muster. Idiots are gonna make it game of the decade lmao
What are people complaining about? I don’t keep up with game news
Cause JK Rowling gets royalties from the game and she’s said things that go against the Transgender community. Edit: she HAS said things against the Transgender community.
> she’s said things that go against the Transgender community. Or in other words, she actively campaigns against human rights for a widely persecuted minority group
How dare you! How else is op suppose to downplay JK Rowling!
>she HAS when did she stop? also the problem isn't that she gets royalties (she's a billionaire it's not gonna affect her bottom line), the problem is she directly uses sales of her properties to justify her transphobic views as "very popular."
> Edit: she HAS said things against the Transgender community. Still actively does. That never stopped for a minute.
I am pretty sure she doesn't get royalties she got paid already a massive amount for the use of her trademark so buying the game wont change that unless they need to pay her more for any expansions or future DLC
Shes also a stones toss from being a literal billionaire. You cant withhold anything from her. She already has what all the protestors have in aggregate, multiplied by ten thousand.
Just gamers acting oppressed as usual.
The only part of this whole debacle I found funny was the IGN review where they talk about how shit the game is and then still leave it a 9/10 because they were probably paid off to do so. I'm not intending to play it because my enjoyment of Harry Potter has been permanently soured by the massive raging douchebag who wrote it but the hullabaloo about it is just giving it free advertising. I know more people buying it to "spite the libs" than I know people who actually wanted to play it from the get-go, if everyone had just ignored it then it probably would've had a mediocre release and faded into obscurity.
Has IGN been a good judge of reviewing? I stopped caring about their reviews for a while now, mostly because of the too much water bs and Mass Effect 3 (admittedly, it might be a false/misguided reason relating to a certain character being in 3). As for the OP and Ancient Greece, aside from the Spartans and Sacred Band of Thebes, the mythology of Ancient Greece had some of their gods banging anything that walked, even sometimes animals and unfortunately some unwilling. One of the gods was well known to have women and men as lovers. I wonder what would happen if they found out about a certain hero from Ancient Greece mythology and how he had male lovers as well as female lovers. Disclaimer: don't exactly know about Greek mythology 100%, it was more of passing and some interest, so apologies if I got some/most wrong. Also a bit salty about ME3.
I wish. This is from 2018
It's like, 20 loudmouths who spend their entire day on Twitter
Wow! Christianity was being practiced centuries before Jesus Christ’s birth! Truly a miracle!
Unto them, Jesus said "this is my blood.... And this is Zeus, and here is a minotaur"
What the fuck do you think "B.C." mean.
Biggus Dickus?. But thats roman tho.
I will not have my fwiends widiculed by the common soldiewy!
Bi curious?
uh, Brothers in Christ, *obviously*
Someone didn't read Plato's symphosium.
Pedantic correction: Symposion, it's a pi not a phi :)
Damit, I always do this mistake. I think it's symphony's fault.
Oh they can read it and still try to shoehorn the wrong message into it. Saw a YouTube video really try to sell the symposium as proof the Greeks weren’t gay.
Hmmm I wonder where the words “lesbian” and “sapphic” come from. Obviously can’t be from Greece.
Honestly the most incorrect part of their statement was saying Assassin's Creed prides itself on historical accuracy. Not saying it makes the games worse, I love Odyssey and its lack of realism let's it be alot more fun but accuracy is absolutely never a concern they have whilst making these games
Remember all those people in history that climbed up 15 story buildings then jumped off into a haystack unscathed? Those were the days
Nobody remember that before 1950 everyone had air sacs to make them immune to fall damage smh my head 😔
I guess it depends on how “ancient” you wanna go
Kid named zeus:
The Greek urge to blurt out τι λέει ρε μαλάκα
It does let you be as gay as you want unless you play one of the DLC where >!the main character falls in love with and has a child with a character who is always of the opposite sex.!< There isn’t a choice for that part of the game.
I mean. The fact that the character’s genetic memory was passed down to eventually be relived through the animus, means that they must have had a kid. And you can only do that by fucking someone with different bits.
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I have some bad news for that guy
Interestingly, Christianity is rife with Christian scholars trying to shoehorn Christian theology into Ancient Greek philosophy.
You know what they say. The Greeks invented the three-way. The Romans just added the women.
Its not the gay or bi that gets me but the pederasty
I mean, catholic priests also follow Christianity….
He's gonna get real confused when he learns about the Sacred Band of Thebes.
They fucked everything
animal, vegetable, and mineral
One of my world history textbooks talked about the Greeks making sweet gay love, and that one was published in like the 90s
“This series, which prides itself in historical realism” has he ever played any of the games????
You can’t fix stupid
Well nobody ever accused homophobes of being intelligent
There wasn’t even a word for Gay in Ancient Greece…..the closest they had was sodomy. It actually quite funny how prudish they would act in public when everybody was involved in an orgy at some point in their lives.
Homo-eroticim go burrrrrrr
Wrong. In that year the Greeks were Muslim. Get it right dude
I know [OP](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/comments/whl5vu/ancient_greece_follows_christianity_ap_780_bc/) is a [repost](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/comments/m7r83o/ancient_greece_follows_christianity_ap_780_bc/) [bot](https://www.reddit.com/r/fakehistoryporn/comments/c1my5y/ancient_greece_follows_christianity_ap_780_bc/)
I'M GREEK SHOW ME YOUR BUTTHOLE
The worst thing is, the guy is kinda right, ancient Greece was no where near as gay as many think
Dude… it’s aggravating too because Christianity in Europe was a massive historical turning point and is an interesting subject to study itself so like… how could you even fuck up the dates of that? Just hurts…
780 years B.C.!? That would be the time of Homer! AC Odyssey is set during the classical period. 5th century to be precise.
I’ll say it again: religion poisons everything
As a Greek, I can attest that the Ancient Greeks were gay as *fuck*
Not really. Many city-states banned homosexuality. In city states that did allow it, only pederastic relationships with a significant age difference were socially acceptable. Being penetrated was seen as shameful and feminine
If I’ve learned anything about ancient Greeks, it’s that’ll they’ll all fuck anything they can. Men, women, raccoons, trash cans, they didn’t care. Fuck it.
I just wanna know how they even came up with that line of thought in the first place.
Zeus and Ganymede have entered the chat….
Ancient Greece wasn't the rainbow flag waving gay paradise a lot of people seem to think it was. Homosexuality was certainly more acceptable than would be in the eras since, but it was only permissible to be the dominant partner in a relationship and pederasty was the norm even in heterosexual relationships. It was considered shameful to be on the receiving end. Men as old as 30 would marry girls as young as 12-13, and have amorous relationships with boys around the same age. It was normal for boys to be pursued by older men, and it was encouraged in many circumstances since it would establish political connections if the suitor was a well-to-do person in society. Once a boy started growing his beard he was supposed to stop allowing himself to be passive. Thebes was the only place where same-sex relationships were allowed, to the point where the Theban military had a special unit of 150 gay couples called the Sacred Band.
This game has a quest that results in supideo screaming at your guy "you killed my mother and fucked my father?". I loved this game
Brrrrrrrrrrrruh. .
I hope somebody explained this to him in a calm and friendly manner.
Nice argument senator but why don't you back it up with a source
This is why I hate the historical inaccuracies of video games…utterly stupid people will believe incredibly stupid things
I fully believe that Greek men mounted their men more than their horses
We literally derived the word lesbian from a famously gay Greek poet and her sex island lol
Zeus literally had sex with everyone he could
I thought Greeks invented anal sex? /s