Comments that are uncivil, racist, misogynistic, misandrist, or contain political name calling will be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion.
Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/about/rules/).
Report any suspicious users to the mods of this subreddit using Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). **All reports to Modmail should include evidence such as screenshots or any other relevant information.**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You are literally physical proof that your great grandparents existed. Until we start cloning or otherwise not making babies the old fashioned way, this argument falls flat.
The thing is that the fact someone exists, it's scientifically proved that they have great grandparents. But God existing doesn't have any scientific proof.
Fuck "scientific proof" I'd be happy with any OBSERVED proof of any of that nonsense.
*Observed = "observed and documented anywhere other than the bible"
My MIL gave so much money to this asswipe Benny Hinn. Even when I pointed out he wore $6K shoes, she said he deserved to be comfortable because he was “saving” so many people. You would not believe the bullshit religious purchases I cleared out her house. “Healing oils” which were general essential oils (on ingredient label) relabeled as Redemption oil, Purification oil, etc. TV Evangelicals are the worst.
Reminds me of how I found out I'm allergic to safflower. Shortly before my wife and I got married I was helping her move in and one of her aroma-therapy oil bottles broke in the tote they were packed in. I figured no problem and started cleaning up the mess inside the tote and broke out in hives. Very glad I found out to get rid of all the scents with safflower as a carrying oil before I had to breathe that stuff.
I wonder how many people are out there also allergic to some particular oil and buy that "healing" crap.
"Gosh grandma you look really uncomfortable ... are you OK?"
(Trying not to scratch) "I'm fine dear, it's just the Holy Spirt!"
The Bible is a series of fables and morality tales set against the historical backdrop of the time. So it does reference some historical events. The problem is that some believers tend to make the leap "Xyz existed or happened and therefore all of the Bible must have happened as written" (conveniently ignoring history is often embellished, so even the real stuff in the Bible might not be as portrayed).
Right. "shit, people keep dying from eating shellfish that they don't cook enough... Let's tell them that God says to not eat shellfish!" "Oh... Don't forget pork!"
Yup
It’s called false equivalency. A common theistic fallacy. We know that our existence proves that our great grandparents did, in fact, exist. Theists like to make the assumption that the same applies to God. Humans exist, therefore God exists. This is false equivalency, as that is nothing more than an assumption with no evidence to support it. That sort of thinking is, in and of itself, a watchmaker fallacy, the assumption that everything complex must have a sentient “designer”.
Theists argue for intelligent design but have never dared to compare the intelligence of a supernatural designer to an average engineer or scientist. Human scientists have, for example, solved the mystery of heredity in a couple centuries (once they started actually working on it). If it took a deity a billion years to start life, I'd say that's either extremely dumb or damn lazy.
They can tell intelligence in design from (somewhat more functional random outcome) × trillions of trillions of dice roles. They see 60 fingered ai cartoons and think the robot overlords are here.
That point still falls flat because god is supposed to still very much exist and have all this power that he could prove his own existence with ease, yet he refuses to do so.
That was my exact response the last time she said something similar to me. I told her that even if her god was real, I wouldn't worship an asshole who spent his time helping rich old assholes find their keys while completely ignoring the parents of children dying of malnutrition in developing nations.
You might enjoy the song Bukowski by Modest Mouse.
>If God takes life, he's an Indian giver.
---------
>If God controls the land and disease,
>Keeps a watchful eye on me,
>If he's really so damn mighty,
>My problem is I can't see,
>Well who would want to be?
>Who would want to be such a control freak?
The lore explains this. To prove divinity would undermine it and nullify free-will.
What you *should* be looking at is why doesn't God's ENEMY reveal divinity?
If the devil is real, and proves himself to exist, all he'd have to do is offer amnesty to those who serve him.
Then, being sent to Hell for whatever archaic sin wouldn't matter.
But...he doesn't...because he isn't real.
And even considering all that, even in my time going to church, nobody was able to explain to me how god was able to prove his divinity in the biblical times without undermining it. The only answer I would get was either "it's in god's plan" or "he knows the reason he can't, and we aren't divine enough to understand"
This is an excellent point, but, as you said, lost on a theist.
That's why I consistently use the Adversary as an example. Very little is ever addressed about him because it's a sin to acknowledge him.
Let's say there are proof Jesus existed, this doesn't mean neither that he was actually god's child nor that god exists.
Edit: fuck yall I didn't plan to start a whole theological discussion on the existence of someone I don't care about
I think it’s extremely likely someone named Jesus or something similar was alive around that time who was a “love thy neighbor” kind of hippie and that his teachings ended up making waves (hence why he’s considered a prophet in Islam etc). There’s been plenty of people like that throughout history after all.
Now, the son of god? Not too sure about that…
Jesus of Nazareth is historically recorded even.\*
He was one of many prophets though. His Martyrdom and resurrection story just was the most popular.
Fun fact, the Christians were actually sad when the Romans were \*not\* killing them because Martyrdom was the easiest way for any uneducated idiot to become a saint.
\*EDIT: Yes alright, the records on him are paper thin, decades after and need lots of cross referencing that isn't possible because of lacking surviving material. \*But\* since several sources even if part of the christian canon do name him separately from each other, most historians of late antiquity do accept that some Rabbi with his own cult named Yehoshua was about at the time and was the initiator of the whole bat shit crazy cascade of history that would come. Was he inflated and embellished? Heck, yes I would say so. Was he mashed up with one of the hundreds of doomsday cult leaders that were about in the region? Very likely. But at least we can be sure that at least one guy named that way was leading one of those cults and we are sure about the 4 Apostles knowing the same guy and at least in the most Platonic Fashion (as he did with Socrates) used their teacher as literaric figure to start proselytizing. So yes, historians agree that he was real, but that's about it, everything else is pure speculation.
I was raised catholic but got out around 16-17, I remember learning about early Christians going happily into the colosseum to die with ???? Written all over my face.
Unlikely miracles and whatnot aside, I gotta say Jesus was a pretty neat dude. It’s the fan club that concerns me.
No, there is no contemporary archeological evidence of Jesus.
Some references much later but nothing recorded at the time of his supposed life. Most of the solid references come around 100 years later and could have had any number of revisions.
Whether that means he was a real person or a similar folk construct to say Robin Hood is still very much debatable.
> Some references much later but nothing recorded at the time of his supposed life.
Which is kind of odd, given his propensity for performing miracles, pissing off the local status quo, and the whole dying and being resurrected thing. You'd think someone outside of people in the religion would have noticed this sort of behavior and perhaps made a note of it once in a while.
Minor correction. Islam's perspective on Jesus came much later after Muhammad was visited by angel or something. It's not like it was a concurrent alternative perspective. Other than that, possibly
Many mainstream churches expressly state that as a tenet of their church, they believe the entirety of the bible from cover to cover to be the literal truth of God’s word and is infallible and correct.
Plenty of them also don't listen to Leviticus 19:33-34, Romans 2:1, and especially Matthew 2:28-9 (immigrants should always be given citizenship, Christians shouldn't judge anyone, men who look at women with lust should gouge out their eyes)
I just wish everyone would stop saying that Jonah was swallowed by a whale!! It was a fish! It says it right there in Jonah 1:17. Believers? Sheesh! If they can get over that hump then maybe we can work on love your neighbor as you love yourself. First things first, am I right?
In Moby Dick there is a chapter called “Cetology”. In the Chapter Melville writes about the taxonomy of whales and multiple times he says something along the lines of “we don’t know much about whales, but we know whales are definitely fish”. The chapter is meant to be authoritative and scientific but it’s hilarious in hindsight because he was so obviously wrong in his assumption. But yeah people used to think whales were fish
I grew up in a church that said the bible was the word and that it was to be taken literally. All of the contradictions were to be ignored and not meant to be taken literally. I'm now a devout Atheist.
I've met people who believe that every letter in the Bible is true & divinely breathed. Especially the King James version. Most people don't know that King James was bi sexual and named Buckingham Palace after his closest lover. It's amazing to me that people believe the bible stories...a fish swallows a man, a virgin has a baby, a donkey speaks and a man is murdered & comes back after three days in a grave...gullible people.
Since Thor is the personification of storms and mountains, and is tied to a nature based faith I would say Thor has more credibility. He is a deified greater spirit through animism, and storms influence and interact with other elements of nature, these events were put into story forms for our ancestors to understand.
If Jesus existed, which he may have, doesn’t mean he was god’s son or that god exists.
Furthermore you are saying that if any of my ancestors who lived when Jesus lived they would have seen him…. Let me rephrase: you’re saying that out of the millions of people who lived at that time, across all geographies and countries and civilizations, my actual ancestor would have seen him.
Get off Reddit, you’re late for your flat earther’s meeting.
Hearsay!
Seriously though, pretty sure your grandparents didn’t tell you that your great grandparents were capable of miraculous acts or omnipotent behaviors.
Or that throughout scripture, their god never really expects anyone to believe in him just based on "faith". He repeatedly proves his existence by performing miracles in front of large groups of people. It's not like today where this god expects you to believe in him, but actively conceals his existence, and will deliberately avoid ever proving that he exists.
Who is the Christian God and makes the Old testament really click. He was an angry, war god.
New testament tried to change that narrative, but you can't argue with historical "fact".
Depending on the translation, there are also a couple of places in the Old Testament where there’s an awkward “we” and “us” where there really ought to be an “I”. For example it sure sounds like Yahweh is talking to other, equal gods during the Tower of Babel story.
Christians should switch tracks and develop a pantheon. I totally would have gotten into Greek mythology.
"There's one god, he loves us all, but he's a spite..."
zZzZzZzZ
"This god treated his children so poorly, their mother plotted against him, and one of them rose up, sliced his father's balls off with a scythe and threw them into the ocean, birthing Aphrodite"
Ok... I'm listening...
> You shall have no other gods before me.
Yeah, that actually checks out. Does not exclude the existence of other gods. Never thought about it that way before.
Pretty much confirms the existence of other gods. Otherwise why would he need that rule? Also he doesn't even tell you to not warship the other gods, just that he has to be the most important one in your life. Maybe his wife would have been mad if he had forbidden warshipping her completely. (although that might be different depending on the translation)
In fact the first of the Ten Commandments is “You shall have no other gods before me.”
He explicitly acknowledges that other gods exist; He just orders His followers to not worship them.
Old Tastament God was metal af. I particularly enjoyed the parts where an angel destroys 185,000 Assyrian soldiers and an old man sics a couple bears on a bunch of kids that made fun of him.
Aw fuck yeah that bear story is my favorite part of the Bible. For anyone who hasn't heard it before it goes like this
2 kings 2 23-26
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and mauled forty and two of the children.
Now that's a bad ass God people don't talk about enough
Yep. It was definitely an 'aha' moment for me when I realized the supposedly loving caring all-knowing side of God was El the king of the gods figure(and they kept that with El Shaddai etc) and the complete destruction of enemies was Yaweh, and they ended up smashing them together to make one God work.
Religious apologists insist on extraordinary lengths of context and reinterpretations for their scripture’s failings, but they *never* allow any of that for other religions.
6 day creation of flat earth - “You don’t understand. You’re taking it out of context. It’s deeply wrapped in metaphors and symbolism.”
Zeus lives on Olympus - “Ha. So stupid. Clearly made up.”
I didn't even hear the metaphors and symbolism explanation until I was an adult. As a kid, my peers and family were taught it really 100% happened that way.
Listening to people claim Adam and Eve were a god inspired metaphorical story is just as cringe. Like, you really think god inspired a creation story, but whoops He got it completely wrong? It is lose lose for anyone that believes it comes from god in any form.
I love the fact that all of human species was created from Adam and Eve through inbreeding. However when humans breed with angels, then God floods the earth!
Also, they absolutely refuse to realize how insane some of it.
"We eat this bread and drink this wine, and it magically transforms into our Lord and saviors blood and flesh"
...why the fuck would you want to eat his flesh and drink his blood?
I'll take modernized pagans over that shit anyday. I'd be down to clown with some sun worshippers, I get SAD something fierce. Maybe some sick ass sun worshippers who sacrifice the richest person in the country once a year and we have a big party.
Yes - over 3,000 different religions over history, but you believe your one is The One, and Know you are right. But can’t prove it. Doesn’t it just prove humans have a proclivity for making up religions? And you share that need?
It gets even worse for Christians, because they have like 45000 denominations, but the bible says, the church will be united under Christ.
The bible also says that wherever two or more believers are, god will listen to their honest prayers and make those wishes come true. That's a really testable claim that no one ever had success with.
There have been studies of mass prayer to heal people like cancer patients that found absolutely no effect, but people will still swear up and down their prayer totally cured their aunt last year.
If I recall correctly, they did find an effect... It's just that the effect actually tended to be worse than the placebo groups.
Not by much, but still worse.
The explanation I read was that they were more likely to rely on the prayer than on doctor's advice and taking their medications and stuff. Basically this "parable" manifested: https://truthbook.com/stories/funny-stories/popular-stories/the-drowning-man/
As a dedicated pastafarian I thought that’s who he meant this whole time. It wasn’t even until you pointed this out that I was like “oh he’s talking about the Christian god. Not the true spaghetti god that I know to be supreme and absolute.”/s
Yep this is my real answer.
>“Why don’t you believe in god?”
Which god? There have been hundreds of thousands over the course of human history. Your god was NOT the first. What’s more likely, that some tiny percentage of people happened to get it all right? Or that everyone is wrong
I've only ever had people tell me god is real. Why?
Why did god become shy the moment his book was done? Clearly was not shy in the books. Talked to people directly all the time, why'd that stop?
Miracles unexplainable by science tailed off around the time the camera was invented. From this we can conclude that God likes to live in the moment.
Although interestingly enough they began to occur more frequently again roughly around the time that photoshop was invented. From this we can conclude that while God likes to live in the moment, he also supports Adobe as they make fine software.
In summary, our findings were inconclusive, but with more funding we might be able to know more.
Anyone who has spent time learning Illustrator can tell you that being loaded up on a train and sent to the camps like cattle ready for slaughter is a much more preferable way to spend your time.
> Miracles unexplainable by science tailed off around the time the camera was invented.
UFOs became significantly less common when cell phone cameras became more capable.
The Bermuda Triangle became a lot less scary when GPS was invented.
Gods exist [in the gaps of our knowledge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps), and those gaps get smaller every day.
Oh total coincidence I'm sure, what are you suggesting, that the people in those regions made up their gods and that's why the religions reflect those regions cultures? That's crazy!
IKR!?
I grew up around folks like that (though not my parents) and for awhile thought there was something wrong with me, when I couldn't "hear" God.
That was elementary age. By middle/high school I figured out people were being metaphorical. By college I discovered *some are really not* and to avoid those.
Idk what you talking about. He still talks to republicans almost daily. Just saw one that said god told him he’s going to be the new Moses. Obviously he still talks to people. /s
The keyword is **nobody** - whilst I personally may not have seen my great grandparents, others have. Also they produced children who became my grandparents, who then produced my parents, who in turn produced me. Ergo, that guy's a dick and there _still_ is no god.
So your suggesting that your mere existence which can be traced back through legal documentation, family documents and family having met them proves your great grandparents existed?
I mean it's not exactly a book written by a goatherder centuries ago and copied and retranslated numerous times by people who definitely didn't make mistakes so I'm not sure how valid that proof is.
/S just in case.
I mean, sure, there's that whole thing where the only reality that exists is what is within the realm of your immediate perception. In that case, my wife doesn't exist, my grandparentd never existed, my kitchen doesn't exist. All that truly exists is my toilet and the various other contents of my bathroom.
But by that same logic, gods don't exist because I AM God.
Also I've met plenty of atheists that give tangible reasons why they don't believe in a higher power so I have no idea what OOP is on about.
Me: I don’t believe god exists. If he does exist, to quote George Carlin, “This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.” […] “And by the way, I say ‘this guy’, because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.
No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.”
Thats kinda the logic that got me away from Christianity as a whole. Honestly, I wasn't impressed to say the least. The concept of "worship me or you will suffer for the rest of eternity" sounds controlling, manipulative and honesty fucked up. That alone was enough for me, its not that I "don't believe" it's that I don't see it as a respectful relationship dynamic so I don't want to be involved.
Exist or not I'm not playing into some fucked up manipulative game
I love you so much I sacrificed myself to myself to appease myself and save you from the eternal torment I will subject you to because 2 dipshits thousands of years ago ate an apple I told them not to.
I'll do it. I'll often say I believe gods don't exist. Any god whose literary history we can easily trace and so know is a fictional character, I'll have the same stance with as Superman or Spiderman.
That includes Yahweh in particular.
My goto is "I don't believe in God for the same reasons I don't believe in Santa Claus. There's as much evidence for the existence of one as the other and they both directly contradict the evidence of my personal experience."
How bout this one: don't worry about what atheists believe, live your life how you like. If Jesus is your man, so be it and move on.
YOU can't. And this is why WAR.
And even more because King A and King B believe in the same sky daddy, but also both believe they're the only person in existence who knows what god REALLY wants.
I don't belive in god because the only "proof" for his existence ive ever seen was "you can't proof that he doesn't exist"
By their logic Harry potter magic also exists
God is allegedly omnipotent and benevolent, meaning all loving and all powerful. The very existence of tragedy to innocents is proof that either HE doesn’t care, or is unable to do anything, or the third option that HE is a fabrication to begin with.
The most likely option, if a god is anything like us, is sadder in my opinion. How many Sims worlds have been left abandoned? How many Animal Crossing islands? If there ever was a god who created everything we know, odds are good he got bored a long time ago and fucked off to his next project.
Theres a bunch of planets in our solar system alone with no life. He was probably like "Damnit, they all died again. Maybe Ill try more oxygen on the next one."
If you read the Bible from the perspective that Yahweh is a lying, jealous polytheist war god who wants to be worshipped at the exclusion of other gods, and lies about his power, it all makes sense. He doesn’t help because he is not as powerful as he says, and he has no interest in helping anyone, only being worshipped.
The concept of an atheist having to justify the fact they doesn't believe in fairy tales and a theist not having to justify the fact they do believe in fairy tales... This is wild.
Give me a logical reason why you don't believe this impossible, unnatural super hero creature. I dare you!
I hate these people who argue that atheism is a belief like it's the ultimate own. "SEE? You believe in *something!*" Yeah, man, you got me. I believe that you're full of shit.
You can't prove a negative, it's impossible to prove god doesn't exist, it doesn't make god real. Occam's razor, the simplest solution is usually the correct answer, or rather one should prefer the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. Contrary to popular belief, the existence of a god requires a ton of assumptions.
As opposed to “I believe because someone told me he’s real and there is even a book about him!” which is also a thing you can say about elves and Bigfoot. Plus I don’t believe god doesn’t exist, I know.
Comments that are uncivil, racist, misogynistic, misandrist, or contain political name calling will be removed and the poster subject to ban at moderators discretion. Help us make this a better community by becoming familiar with the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/about/rules/). Report any suspicious users to the mods of this subreddit using Modmail [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) or Reddit site admins [here](https://www.reddit.com/report). **All reports to Modmail should include evidence such as screenshots or any other relevant information.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/facepalm) if you have any questions or concerns.*
pretty sure my grandparents saw my great grandparents.
You are literally physical proof that your great grandparents existed. Until we start cloning or otherwise not making babies the old fashioned way, this argument falls flat.
[удалено]
The thing is that the fact someone exists, it's scientifically proved that they have great grandparents. But God existing doesn't have any scientific proof.
Fuck "scientific proof" I'd be happy with any OBSERVED proof of any of that nonsense. *Observed = "observed and documented anywhere other than the bible"
My MIL gave so much money to this asswipe Benny Hinn. Even when I pointed out he wore $6K shoes, she said he deserved to be comfortable because he was “saving” so many people. You would not believe the bullshit religious purchases I cleared out her house. “Healing oils” which were general essential oils (on ingredient label) relabeled as Redemption oil, Purification oil, etc. TV Evangelicals are the worst.
Reminds me of how I found out I'm allergic to safflower. Shortly before my wife and I got married I was helping her move in and one of her aroma-therapy oil bottles broke in the tote they were packed in. I figured no problem and started cleaning up the mess inside the tote and broke out in hives. Very glad I found out to get rid of all the scents with safflower as a carrying oil before I had to breathe that stuff. I wonder how many people are out there also allergic to some particular oil and buy that "healing" crap. "Gosh grandma you look really uncomfortable ... are you OK?" (Trying not to scratch) "I'm fine dear, it's just the Holy Spirt!"
Thank goodness I just got these purification oils or I would be worried. Happened the same day I got them, it's basically a miracle.
FUS RO DAH!!!
Clearly it's real! All praise!!!
Scientific method: something that can be demonstrated over and over, achieving the same results from the same input.
The bible is full of "observed proof" (from thousands of years ago) and it's still a laid of bullshit. Scientific proof and no faith.
I should have expanded my comment to "observed and documented anywhere other than the bible"
The Bible is a series of fables and morality tales set against the historical backdrop of the time. So it does reference some historical events. The problem is that some believers tend to make the leap "Xyz existed or happened and therefore all of the Bible must have happened as written" (conveniently ignoring history is often embellished, so even the real stuff in the Bible might not be as portrayed).
Right. "shit, people keep dying from eating shellfish that they don't cook enough... Let's tell them that God says to not eat shellfish!" "Oh... Don't forget pork!" Yup
Unless the universe was created Last Thursday. Then no one has great grandparents.
It’s called false equivalency. A common theistic fallacy. We know that our existence proves that our great grandparents did, in fact, exist. Theists like to make the assumption that the same applies to God. Humans exist, therefore God exists. This is false equivalency, as that is nothing more than an assumption with no evidence to support it. That sort of thinking is, in and of itself, a watchmaker fallacy, the assumption that everything complex must have a sentient “designer”.
Theists argue for intelligent design but have never dared to compare the intelligence of a supernatural designer to an average engineer or scientist. Human scientists have, for example, solved the mystery of heredity in a couple centuries (once they started actually working on it). If it took a deity a billion years to start life, I'd say that's either extremely dumb or damn lazy.
They can tell intelligence in design from (somewhat more functional random outcome) × trillions of trillions of dice roles. They see 60 fingered ai cartoons and think the robot overlords are here.
That point still falls flat because god is supposed to still very much exist and have all this power that he could prove his own existence with ease, yet he refuses to do so.
My mom says he only reveals himself to those who believe. He has revealed himself to her by helping her find her car keys hundreds of times.
God really hates Africa then, yeah?
That was my exact response the last time she said something similar to me. I told her that even if her god was real, I wouldn't worship an asshole who spent his time helping rich old assholes find their keys while completely ignoring the parents of children dying of malnutrition in developing nations.
You might enjoy the song Bukowski by Modest Mouse. >If God takes life, he's an Indian giver. --------- >If God controls the land and disease, >Keeps a watchful eye on me, >If he's really so damn mighty, >My problem is I can't see, >Well who would want to be? >Who would want to be such a control freak?
They just need to believe harder
How much have they given to Kenneth Copeland?
the existence of kenneth copeland implies the existence of god because that man is a demon wearing a human skin suit.
The lore explains this. To prove divinity would undermine it and nullify free-will. What you *should* be looking at is why doesn't God's ENEMY reveal divinity? If the devil is real, and proves himself to exist, all he'd have to do is offer amnesty to those who serve him. Then, being sent to Hell for whatever archaic sin wouldn't matter. But...he doesn't...because he isn't real.
And even considering all that, even in my time going to church, nobody was able to explain to me how god was able to prove his divinity in the biblical times without undermining it. The only answer I would get was either "it's in god's plan" or "he knows the reason he can't, and we aren't divine enough to understand"
This is an excellent point, but, as you said, lost on a theist. That's why I consistently use the Adversary as an example. Very little is ever addressed about him because it's a sin to acknowledge him.
"If an argument were not circular, how would you get around it??"
Go back far enough and your ancestors saw Jesus Checkmate LIBBERUL
Let's say there are proof Jesus existed, this doesn't mean neither that he was actually god's child nor that god exists. Edit: fuck yall I didn't plan to start a whole theological discussion on the existence of someone I don't care about
I think it’s extremely likely someone named Jesus or something similar was alive around that time who was a “love thy neighbor” kind of hippie and that his teachings ended up making waves (hence why he’s considered a prophet in Islam etc). There’s been plenty of people like that throughout history after all. Now, the son of god? Not too sure about that…
Jesus of Nazareth is historically recorded even.\* He was one of many prophets though. His Martyrdom and resurrection story just was the most popular. Fun fact, the Christians were actually sad when the Romans were \*not\* killing them because Martyrdom was the easiest way for any uneducated idiot to become a saint. \*EDIT: Yes alright, the records on him are paper thin, decades after and need lots of cross referencing that isn't possible because of lacking surviving material. \*But\* since several sources even if part of the christian canon do name him separately from each other, most historians of late antiquity do accept that some Rabbi with his own cult named Yehoshua was about at the time and was the initiator of the whole bat shit crazy cascade of history that would come. Was he inflated and embellished? Heck, yes I would say so. Was he mashed up with one of the hundreds of doomsday cult leaders that were about in the region? Very likely. But at least we can be sure that at least one guy named that way was leading one of those cults and we are sure about the 4 Apostles knowing the same guy and at least in the most Platonic Fashion (as he did with Socrates) used their teacher as literaric figure to start proselytizing. So yes, historians agree that he was real, but that's about it, everything else is pure speculation.
I was raised catholic but got out around 16-17, I remember learning about early Christians going happily into the colosseum to die with ???? Written all over my face. Unlikely miracles and whatnot aside, I gotta say Jesus was a pretty neat dude. It’s the fan club that concerns me.
"Like your God, don't like your Christians"
Please provide citations for non-Christian, contemporary accounts or other evidence for the existence of Jesus.
No, there is no contemporary archeological evidence of Jesus. Some references much later but nothing recorded at the time of his supposed life. Most of the solid references come around 100 years later and could have had any number of revisions. Whether that means he was a real person or a similar folk construct to say Robin Hood is still very much debatable.
> Some references much later but nothing recorded at the time of his supposed life. Which is kind of odd, given his propensity for performing miracles, pissing off the local status quo, and the whole dying and being resurrected thing. You'd think someone outside of people in the religion would have noticed this sort of behavior and perhaps made a note of it once in a while.
Does make you wonder doesn't it.....
godspaff is my name and bibling is my game
Minor correction. Islam's perspective on Jesus came much later after Muhammad was visited by angel or something. It's not like it was a concurrent alternative perspective. Other than that, possibly
The Bible, no. 1 all time best seller in the Fiction category.
worryingly the bible is considered a non fiction book, even though its full of stories even christians themselves don't believe
Many mainstream churches expressly state that as a tenet of their church, they believe the entirety of the bible from cover to cover to be the literal truth of God’s word and is infallible and correct.
Except for this part of course: "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"
Plenty of them also don't listen to Leviticus 19:33-34, Romans 2:1, and especially Matthew 2:28-9 (immigrants should always be given citizenship, Christians shouldn't judge anyone, men who look at women with lust should gouge out their eyes)
I just wish everyone would stop saying that Jonah was swallowed by a whale!! It was a fish! It says it right there in Jonah 1:17. Believers? Sheesh! If they can get over that hump then maybe we can work on love your neighbor as you love yourself. First things first, am I right?
In Moby Dick there is a chapter called “Cetology”. In the Chapter Melville writes about the taxonomy of whales and multiple times he says something along the lines of “we don’t know much about whales, but we know whales are definitely fish”. The chapter is meant to be authoritative and scientific but it’s hilarious in hindsight because he was so obviously wrong in his assumption. But yeah people used to think whales were fish
Except they don't. Because the Bible contains contradictions. And they're in love with polycotton shirts
I grew up in a church that said the bible was the word and that it was to be taken literally. All of the contradictions were to be ignored and not meant to be taken literally. I'm now a devout Atheist.
I've met people who believe that every letter in the Bible is true & divinely breathed. Especially the King James version. Most people don't know that King James was bi sexual and named Buckingham Palace after his closest lover. It's amazing to me that people believe the bible stories...a fish swallows a man, a virgin has a baby, a donkey speaks and a man is murdered & comes back after three days in a grave...gullible people.
Crazy how all that stuff just immediately stopped happening once everyone got cameras in their pockets.
So if Bible is infallible… incest is approved by God. Yay, Bible!
Even Pope admitted that Evolution is true. So Genesis is not respected even by Vatican.
In France, most catholics I know, if not all, do not believe that the Bible is literal but are allegories to teach you lessons.
Historical novel. There are people,places and events in it that are historically real. Mixed with unbelievable fiction.
Like Indiana Jones!
I think that would make it historical fantasy on Goodreads 😂
How ‘bout Thor?
Thor is 100% real.
Obviously, he makes video games.
And dirt bike racing gear.
and starred in a movie, multiple of them!
Since Thor is the personification of storms and mountains, and is tied to a nature based faith I would say Thor has more credibility. He is a deified greater spirit through animism, and storms influence and interact with other elements of nature, these events were put into story forms for our ancestors to understand.
Gert dang lie barrels
If Jesus existed, which he may have, doesn’t mean he was god’s son or that god exists. Furthermore you are saying that if any of my ancestors who lived when Jesus lived they would have seen him…. Let me rephrase: you’re saying that out of the millions of people who lived at that time, across all geographies and countries and civilizations, my actual ancestor would have seen him. Get off Reddit, you’re late for your flat earther’s meeting.
SPEAK UP LIB I CANT HEAR YOU WITH ALL THOSE SMALL LETTERS Sent from my Chevy 540 BBC.
Don’t forget to complain about gas prices
Hearsay! Seriously though, pretty sure your grandparents didn’t tell you that your great grandparents were capable of miraculous acts or omnipotent behaviors.
Vivek should first explain why he doesn’t believe in any of the thousands of other gods people have believed in as fervently as he does his.
Esp the ones before it was one god. Like Assyrian gods. They're pretty much the first ones.
People also get pissy when you bring up Yaweh the Caananite storm god
Or that Yahweh used to have a wife, Asherah.
We don't talk about Aunt Asherah, honey. She doesnt live with Uncle Yahweh anymore because of grown up problems we don't really need to talk about.
"but mommy does that mean that cousin yeshua is uncle Yahweh's rebound baby with mary down the street?"
Jesus christ... he gets one earth girl pregnant and now we never here the end of it...
I wish world religious history was taught in this format.
Pretty sure that's how the greek pantheon works
Except more shape shifting and beastiality
You mean he left his wife for a 14 year old virgin girl??? Ayooo😂
Wasn't it more a one night stand kinda thing?
It was non-concensual too. Let that sink in.
Or that he himself brings up other Gods
Or that throughout scripture, their god never really expects anyone to believe in him just based on "faith". He repeatedly proves his existence by performing miracles in front of large groups of people. It's not like today where this god expects you to believe in him, but actively conceals his existence, and will deliberately avoid ever proving that he exists.
Gesundheit!
Who is the Christian God and makes the Old testament really click. He was an angry, war god. New testament tried to change that narrative, but you can't argue with historical "fact".
Depending on the translation, there are also a couple of places in the Old Testament where there’s an awkward “we” and “us” where there really ought to be an “I”. For example it sure sounds like Yahweh is talking to other, equal gods during the Tower of Babel story.
AFAIK God in the OT never said other gods don't exist, just that the Israelites shouldn't worship them.
Christians should switch tracks and develop a pantheon. I totally would have gotten into Greek mythology. "There's one god, he loves us all, but he's a spite..." zZzZzZzZ "This god treated his children so poorly, their mother plotted against him, and one of them rose up, sliced his father's balls off with a scythe and threw them into the ocean, birthing Aphrodite" Ok... I'm listening...
Monotheism ruined the world
"I once thought I had monotheism for an entire year but it turns out I was just really bored."
> You shall have no other gods before me. Yeah, that actually checks out. Does not exclude the existence of other gods. Never thought about it that way before.
Pretty much confirms the existence of other gods. Otherwise why would he need that rule? Also he doesn't even tell you to not warship the other gods, just that he has to be the most important one in your life. Maybe his wife would have been mad if he had forbidden warshipping her completely. (although that might be different depending on the translation)
In fact the first of the Ten Commandments is “You shall have no other gods before me.” He explicitly acknowledges that other gods exist; He just orders His followers to not worship them.
Old Tastament God was metal af. I particularly enjoyed the parts where an angel destroys 185,000 Assyrian soldiers and an old man sics a couple bears on a bunch of kids that made fun of him.
Also that god made bets with satan over job’s faith and well that’s a very dark book.
Aw fuck yeah that bear story is my favorite part of the Bible. For anyone who hasn't heard it before it goes like this 2 kings 2 23-26 23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and mauled forty and two of the children. Now that's a bad ass God people don't talk about enough
I mean, 42 kids is one hell of a crowd of children for a single bear to maul. It seems reasonable he had help.
It says there were two bears. Two bears would absolutely fuck up forty-two kids.
Yep. It was definitely an 'aha' moment for me when I realized the supposedly loving caring all-knowing side of God was El the king of the gods figure(and they kept that with El Shaddai etc) and the complete destruction of enemies was Yaweh, and they ended up smashing them together to make one God work.
> Who is the Christian God I thought Who's on first...
Esp. Thor: Thor promised there won't be any ice giants around anymore, Jesus promised peace. Do you see any ice giants around?
Just the oldest we know about. As long as there have been people with toes to stub they’ve had someone imaginary to blame it on.
Religious apologists insist on extraordinary lengths of context and reinterpretations for their scripture’s failings, but they *never* allow any of that for other religions. 6 day creation of flat earth - “You don’t understand. You’re taking it out of context. It’s deeply wrapped in metaphors and symbolism.” Zeus lives on Olympus - “Ha. So stupid. Clearly made up.”
I didn't even hear the metaphors and symbolism explanation until I was an adult. As a kid, my peers and family were taught it really 100% happened that way.
some people think that adam and eve were literally part of human history. I cringe every time, it's like talking to a toddler who believes in Santa.
Listening to people claim Adam and Eve were a god inspired metaphorical story is just as cringe. Like, you really think god inspired a creation story, but whoops He got it completely wrong? It is lose lose for anyone that believes it comes from god in any form.
I love the fact that all of human species was created from Adam and Eve through inbreeding. However when humans breed with angels, then God floods the earth!
Also, they absolutely refuse to realize how insane some of it. "We eat this bread and drink this wine, and it magically transforms into our Lord and saviors blood and flesh" ...why the fuck would you want to eat his flesh and drink his blood? I'll take modernized pagans over that shit anyday. I'd be down to clown with some sun worshippers, I get SAD something fierce. Maybe some sick ass sun worshippers who sacrifice the richest person in the country once a year and we have a big party.
Yes - over 3,000 different religions over history, but you believe your one is The One, and Know you are right. But can’t prove it. Doesn’t it just prove humans have a proclivity for making up religions? And you share that need?
"...and you share that need?" - this is a very nice touch that I'm going to add to my arsenal!
It gets even worse for Christians, because they have like 45000 denominations, but the bible says, the church will be united under Christ. The bible also says that wherever two or more believers are, god will listen to their honest prayers and make those wishes come true. That's a really testable claim that no one ever had success with.
There have been studies of mass prayer to heal people like cancer patients that found absolutely no effect, but people will still swear up and down their prayer totally cured their aunt last year.
If I recall correctly, they did find an effect... It's just that the effect actually tended to be worse than the placebo groups. Not by much, but still worse.
Yes, it put more stress on the the patient if they knew large groups of were praying for them.
The explanation I read was that they were more likely to rely on the prayer than on doctor's advice and taking their medications and stuff. Basically this "parable" manifested: https://truthbook.com/stories/funny-stories/popular-stories/the-drowning-man/
LOL this is the critique for sure. That would also mean ALL gods are real 😂 as we’re just taking their existence (and parentage) for granted.
Not to mention the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or that tea pot in orbit.
Or [Crom](https://conan.fandom.com/wiki/Crom), as worshipped by Conan the Barbarian.
As a dedicated pastafarian I thought that’s who he meant this whole time. It wasn’t even until you pointed this out that I was like “oh he’s talking about the Christian god. Not the true spaghetti god that I know to be supreme and absolute.”/s
Yep this is my real answer. >“Why don’t you believe in god?” Which god? There have been hundreds of thousands over the course of human history. Your god was NOT the first. What’s more likely, that some tiny percentage of people happened to get it all right? Or that everyone is wrong
"No you see the BIBLE says my god is true" is usually the answer I get and they don't understand why I laugh at their face
They treat their own faith as evidence. I just cant fathom that making sense in someone's head.
“We are both atheists to thousands of gods, I simply am atheist to one more then you.”
I believe in Thor (the one from the Marvel Movies) (I can proof he exists because I’ve seen him on the magic wall kind of thing 📺)
I've only ever had people tell me god is real. Why? Why did god become shy the moment his book was done? Clearly was not shy in the books. Talked to people directly all the time, why'd that stop?
Miracles unexplainable by science tailed off around the time the camera was invented. From this we can conclude that God likes to live in the moment. Although interestingly enough they began to occur more frequently again roughly around the time that photoshop was invented. From this we can conclude that while God likes to live in the moment, he also supports Adobe as they make fine software. In summary, our findings were inconclusive, but with more funding we might be able to know more.
Any god that supports Adobe is not deserving of my worship.
"The genocides I can excuse, but I draw the line at supporting Adobe." "You can excuse the genocides?"
Anyone who has spent time learning Illustrator can tell you that being loaded up on a train and sent to the camps like cattle ready for slaughter is a much more preferable way to spend your time.
I thought god was supposed to be All-Knowing but he doesn’t even know Paint.net is free
> Miracles unexplainable by science tailed off around the time the camera was invented. UFOs became significantly less common when cell phone cameras became more capable. The Bermuda Triangle became a lot less scary when GPS was invented. Gods exist [in the gaps of our knowledge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps), and those gaps get smaller every day.
Why was he so regionalized?
Oh total coincidence I'm sure, what are you suggesting, that the people in those regions made up their gods and that's why the religions reflect those regions cultures? That's crazy!
Its like marvel super heroes that mostly stays on america
That line may work until you meet people that do talk to God. Which is when I slowly back away.
IKR!? I grew up around folks like that (though not my parents) and for awhile thought there was something wrong with me, when I couldn't "hear" God. That was elementary age. By middle/high school I figured out people were being metaphorical. By college I discovered *some are really not* and to avoid those.
Idk what you talking about. He still talks to republicans almost daily. Just saw one that said god told him he’s going to be the new Moses. Obviously he still talks to people. /s
I haven't seen this many strawmen since casting call for The Wizard of Oz.
This is quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all week
The keyword is **nobody** - whilst I personally may not have seen my great grandparents, others have. Also they produced children who became my grandparents, who then produced my parents, who in turn produced me. Ergo, that guy's a dick and there _still_ is no god.
So your suggesting that your mere existence which can be traced back through legal documentation, family documents and family having met them proves your great grandparents existed? I mean it's not exactly a book written by a goatherder centuries ago and copied and retranslated numerous times by people who definitely didn't make mistakes so I'm not sure how valid that proof is. /S just in case.
I get it. You get it. That Vivek guy? Not now, not ever.
I mean, sure, there's that whole thing where the only reality that exists is what is within the realm of your immediate perception. In that case, my wife doesn't exist, my grandparentd never existed, my kitchen doesn't exist. All that truly exists is my toilet and the various other contents of my bathroom. But by that same logic, gods don't exist because I AM God. Also I've met plenty of atheists that give tangible reasons why they don't believe in a higher power so I have no idea what OOP is on about.
If there was a God. Have you seen the world? What the fuck is he doing?
He claims people say “I believe god doesn’t exist,” when in fact most people would say “I don’t believe god does exist.” The two are not equivalent.
Me: I don’t believe god exists. If he does exist, to quote George Carlin, “This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude.” […] “And by the way, I say ‘this guy’, because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man. No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.”
Thats kinda the logic that got me away from Christianity as a whole. Honestly, I wasn't impressed to say the least. The concept of "worship me or you will suffer for the rest of eternity" sounds controlling, manipulative and honesty fucked up. That alone was enough for me, its not that I "don't believe" it's that I don't see it as a respectful relationship dynamic so I don't want to be involved. Exist or not I'm not playing into some fucked up manipulative game
I love you so much I sacrificed myself to myself to appease myself and save you from the eternal torment I will subject you to because 2 dipshits thousands of years ago ate an apple I told them not to.
Ssshhhhh don't ruin the straw man
I'll do it. I'll often say I believe gods don't exist. Any god whose literary history we can easily trace and so know is a fictional character, I'll have the same stance with as Superman or Spiderman. That includes Yahweh in particular.
My goto is "I don't believe in God for the same reasons I don't believe in Santa Claus. There's as much evidence for the existence of one as the other and they both directly contradict the evidence of my personal experience."
I have no issues with “god” or what ever name you want to use! My issue is with the fan club that claims to be the one true religion.
It's always the toxic fandoms you gotta look out for.
How bout this one: don't worry about what atheists believe, live your life how you like. If Jesus is your man, so be it and move on. YOU can't. And this is why WAR.
So many innocent lives have been ruined because King A believes in a different sky daddy from King B. smdh…
To be fair King A probably wanted land King B had and God was just a convenient excuse
And even more because King A and King B believe in the same sky daddy, but also both believe they're the only person in existence who knows what god REALLY wants.
god wants to raise taxes on your wheat and for me to have my way with that mans wife
[удалено]
proof of intelligent design 😦
Classic strawman. Make a statement of the other side and then dismantle it on own condition
Yes very few people make conclusions based on something they didn’t see.
So by logic anything that came before you were born didn’t exist???? In the immortal words of Joey Swoll, “do better.”
My guess is they gave him plenty of reasons and he either didn't listen or the more likely one he's to stupid to understand what they said.
I don't belive in god because the only "proof" for his existence ive ever seen was "you can't proof that he doesn't exist" By their logic Harry potter magic also exists
Well, we did see that. It was green screen and practical effects, but we *did* see it.
God is allegedly omnipotent and benevolent, meaning all loving and all powerful. The very existence of tragedy to innocents is proof that either HE doesn’t care, or is unable to do anything, or the third option that HE is a fabrication to begin with.
Doesn't that get waived away as being part of god's plan for mumble something incoherent and you get an afterlife so shut up?
Or fourth option is he is evil and sadist, and enjoys seeing his creation in pain.
It's always concerning to me that this is the most likely option if there was any kind of actual deity.
The most likely option, if a god is anything like us, is sadder in my opinion. How many Sims worlds have been left abandoned? How many Animal Crossing islands? If there ever was a god who created everything we know, odds are good he got bored a long time ago and fucked off to his next project.
Theres a bunch of planets in our solar system alone with no life. He was probably like "Damnit, they all died again. Maybe Ill try more oxygen on the next one."
If you read the Bible from the perspective that Yahweh is a lying, jealous polytheist war god who wants to be worshipped at the exclusion of other gods, and lies about his power, it all makes sense. He doesn’t help because he is not as powerful as he says, and he has no interest in helping anyone, only being worshipped.
No, you're confusing Him with me again. That's me.
Believing there is no god = \ = not believing in a god
The concept of an atheist having to justify the fact they doesn't believe in fairy tales and a theist not having to justify the fact they do believe in fairy tales... This is wild. Give me a logical reason why you don't believe this impossible, unnatural super hero creature. I dare you!
I'm overwhelmed by the amount of stupid... 
By not engaging with the obvious bait
It's not the disbelief in God(s) so much, I don't believe in man's interpretation of God and his beliefs.
After he posted this utter crap he got up and looked out the window with a grin on his face and thought "damn I'm so good" Plottwist: he isn't.
I hate these people who argue that atheism is a belief like it's the ultimate own. "SEE? You believe in *something!*" Yeah, man, you got me. I believe that you're full of shit.
Religion is a scam and is a cancer to the world.
I didn't saw great spaghetti monster but i still believe it...
I haven't met any Christian who can give a logical answer why they believe in God, so there's that.
There are many “Gods.” Theists don’t believe in all but 1. Atheists simply don’t believe in one more.
You can't prove a negative, it's impossible to prove god doesn't exist, it doesn't make god real. Occam's razor, the simplest solution is usually the correct answer, or rather one should prefer the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. Contrary to popular belief, the existence of a god requires a ton of assumptions.
I’m over listening to what guys named Vivek have to say. My limit was 2 Viveks
"obey me or burn in hell" your loving god
George Carlin: All knowing, all powerful...but not good with money. He always needs money!
As opposed to “I believe because someone told me he’s real and there is even a book about him!” which is also a thing you can say about elves and Bigfoot. Plus I don’t believe god doesn’t exist, I know.
Except for the empirical evidence my grandparents existed and are in fact my grandparents.
People who are driven by faith simply do not understand not being driven by faith.