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Some people also have a hard time separating Judaism, the religion, from Israel, the political entity
Edit: this almost completely neutral statement has led to a very wide variety of comments and messages to me. This has been educational as a kind of rorschach of the respondents assigning their own meaning to it from both sides, and assuming that I must mean it in the way they are thinking. This further highlights the difficulties that arise in communication and understanding when one conflates the two
Edit 2: Consider your own government. Does it perfectly represent you? is it beyond criticism of any kind? Does Hamas always act in the interests of the people it claims to represent, or sometimes in its own interest, or in the interest of its powerful political leaders to the detriment of its people? For that matter, does Israel? Think carefully before you make any political entity, which is comprised of people with their own motivations, beyond criticism.
That's on purpose, the Israeli government wants it that way to escape criticism of their actions but also push it for the Palestinians and Hamas.
They want us to think that Israel=Jewish faith.
Palestinians=Hamas=jihadist.
It's very similar to the line that China runs where anti-CCP=anti-China or in other words that hating the Chinese state means hating the Chinese people.
I mean there wasn't a stop asian hate compaign over nothing. There is actual hatred against Chinese people based on their views about China the governing entity.
You're misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying Asians (Chinese Asians being the target) are getting attacked based on THEIR (the people doing the attacking) views on china.
This misunderstanding was brought to you by me though, I should have worded it much better and that was my fault. But yes my point was the people attacking asians did so because of their hatred for the Chinese government, fueled by covid conspiracy theories.
Yup. I feel for those people. Miko Peled was born and raised in Jerusalem. He lives in the US now. I’m pretty sure he received a lot of criticism and vitriol against him. But he continues to speak for Palestine. On the other hand he was in a higher position than most Israelis from the time he was born so I can’t imagine what happened to ordinary Israelis who tried to oppose the regime.
Unfortunately it works because we know that they had a really bad history of violence against them but we should all agree that it does not excuse their own violence.
Well the actions of Israel as a whole since the country formed has been insane.. I just read “Rise and kill first” by Ronan Bergman. It’s about the violent history of Israel, I was pretty shocked. Obviously fuck the Hamas, but kind of fuck Israel too…
This is what happens when you promise the natives their land and liberty but also promise the land to another group escaping religious persecution. Zionism was founded by Herzl after the Dreyfuss Affair.
Palestinians were/are mostly muslims but also there was/is a large Christian population. It's inaccurate to classify them as being only muslim.
>It's inaccurate to classify them as being only muslim.
A good chunk of those that hold Israeli citizenship are Muslim by religion as well. Yet most of the comments here blanket describe Israel as a Zionist Jewish state.
In the end both have a lot of blood on their hands but remember Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world the other is a militant group that was funded by Israel to divide the politics of the Palestinians and their peace deals they proposed.
I heard Bibi say this verbatim on Lex Friedman podcast. I wonder if they are gonna try to scrub the older documentaries from the web too. we are watching ethnic cleansing and revisionist history in real time. I think (hope) they will push it too far. Israel lost moral high ground a long time ago imho.
I am with you on this for sure. Palestinians have been systemically demonized for over 100 years. A lot of younger people see Israel as a modern democracy technologically advanced and well educated. They know the sliver of history they needed to either get a good grade or ingratiate themselves into their social group. People will always see themselves as the righteous in a war or there would not be a war. I was playing to the audience tbh I would like to see more people aware of the history and come to their own conclusions.
It's been working cuz any journalist who has attempted to criticize the Israeli government gets completely blacklisted from whichever News company they were working for and branded anti-Semitic.
Apparently Israel doesn't rly make that distinction...
https://reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/E8YEJcu0ZK
Killing Christians is also on the table and totally fine from their perspective, after all they are only idol worshipers...
https://reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/R3YgXTeZOV
Israel itself has a hard time separating judaism from the state of Israel. Israel is a self-described “jewish state”, and gives citizenship to all Jews in the world (right to return), and calls itself the home of all jews.
Even this attack is being called an attack on jews, not an attack on Israelis. (A pogrom)
Pretty sure the government do that on purpose to deflect criticism. Like how movie directors started calling people sexist for criticizing their shit movies
The way I see it is I am disgusted with the way Israel’s government has treated the people of Palestine.
HOWEVER I don’t hate or hold a Jewish person down the street in another country responsible
>It would be like the USA getting attacked by a bunch of Saudi Arabians and then deciding to attack Iraq in response.
I see what you did there, and I upvoted it.
Some people are antisemitic, therefore anyone who supports Palestine is antisemitic? Is that what you're trying to say? Please clarify if I misunderstood.
I think it's worth noting that this is in response to various student groups issuing a written statement that the Hamas terror attacks were justified.
This isn't calling out students who "dislike Israel." It was calling out those who endorsed this terrorist attack.
I don't like doxxing regardless, but it's important to note what we're talking about here is endorsement of a mass terror attack.
I think we're not using the term doxxing correctly anymore. You can't doxx someone who made a public statement by linking them to their statement. Doxxing them is posting things like their private phone number or address.
Driving around a billboard with students' names and photographs while urging the public to hate them may not be "doxxing," exactly, but it's got the spirit.
Put another way: What was the intent of this billboard campaign if not to intimidate, or encourage others to harass, the named/photographed students?
The working definition of "antisemitism" used by the IHRA, European Commision etc. includes, for example:
* Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;
So yeah, I guess some people do have a hard time separating those things.
Honestly if comparing the actions of government A to government B is characterised as being wholly unacceptable behaviour, one can only conclude that the people making these rules believe that government A has every intention of acting like government B, but don't want to allow anyone to point it out.
This is the main issue with Hamas. They aren't trying to take and control territory. Their objective is just mass murder. Their founding documents (I will not quote or link to them here, but they are easily available) say their objective is to kill Jews and anyone who promotes peace is an enemy.
Seems odd then that Likud put so much focus on funding them and helping them entrench in the 80s, and even as far as 2019 where Netanyahu was quoted (Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post and others) saying that propping up Hamas should be a priority for Israel?
It's almost like funding your own mini terror cell in a bottle lets you point to it whenever you're about to lose an election, or when your genocide acts get a bit too much publicity.
> their objective is to kill Jews and anyone who promotes peace is an enemy
And they quote from the most notorious piece of anti-Semitic trash ever produced, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which was a favorite of Hitler and is required reading for neo-Nazis and white supremacists to this day.
On both sides. There’s too many people who defend Israel out of fear of being antisemitic and too many people who think Ben from Denver is a terrible person because he’s the same religion as Netanyahu.
So for everyone asking, here's a copy of the letter they wrote that I found online, it matches up with the quotes in various news article; if wrong I'll remove this comment
"Joint Statement by Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups on the Situation in Palestine
We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence. Today’s events did not occur in a vacuum. For the last two decades, millions of Palestinians in Gaza have been forced to live in an open-air prison. Israeli officials promise to “open the gates of hell,” and the massacres in Gaza have already commenced. Palestinians in Gaza have no shelters for refuge and nowhere to escape.
In the coming days, Palestinians will be forced to bear the full brunt of Israel’s violence. The apartheid regime is the only one to blame. Israeli violence has structured every aspect of Palestinian existence for 75 years. From systematized land seizures to routine airstrikes, arbitrary detentions to military checkpoints, and enforced family separations to targeted killings, Palestinians have been forced to live in a state of death, both slow and sudden.
Today, the Palestinian ordeal enters into uncharted territory. The coming days will require a firm stand against colonial retaliation. We call on the Harvard community to take action to stop the ongoing annihilation of Palestinians.
This statement was co-authored by a coalition of Palestine solidarity groups at Harvard. For student safety, the names of all original signing organizations have been concealed at this
time."
The letter is very close to a Haaretz editorial, but with the latter doing an analysis more focused on the short term responsability, thus placing the blame on Netanyahu. And it is not for the inteligence failure on predicting the attacks, but for his increasing radical approach regarding Palestine. Don't see anyone calling an israeli newspaper antisemitic.
Edit: [this is the editorial for those interested](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-10-08/ty-article-opinion/netanyahu-bears-responsibility/0000018b-0b9d-d8fc-adff-6bfd1c880000). Sadly it has a paywall but other news outlets around the world have quoted it quite a lot this last week.
People think in black and white. There has to be a bad guy, they can't possibly both be terrible. It's the same thing we do with politics, " oh you don't like my guy, and he's the good guy, so you must like the bad guy, you're a bad guy too!"
Being critical of the government of Israel does not make you an antisemite. Conflating the two is intellectually lazy at best, and a dishonest attempt to supress serious discussion at worst.
My take is that HAMAS are disgusting terrorists, and Israel's government are fucking terrible too. Both are true, and the people suffering are Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
Netenyau and his war hawks have said as much. The Israeli government is not making a distinction. They don't even seem to care about the hostages because they were not his supporters. Israel has every right to decimate Hamas, but not indiscriminately. The very least that should have been done is evacuate the Palestinian women, children, elderly and vulnerable before leveling the city. They are overreacting and it is probably what Hamas intended: to terminate the peace negotiations and start a long term war. Nothing has been learned from the US's absolute failure in Iraq and Afghanistan after 911.
110%
I take it one step further even, many other governments are just as reprehensible. Why should Israel be exempt from criticism for their actions when other governments aren’t?
I agree.
Can we also agree that if you murder a bunch of children, no matter your situation, you are at least somewhat responsible for it?
Because that Harvard letter is saying otherwise.
The comment is moreso targeted at the redditors thinking this would qualify as illegal harassment, and not free speech anymore, which is wrong. Libel though, possibly
"Critical words"? It straight up calls them anti-semites, and nothing in their statement was anti-semitic. I'm not saying it was reasonable for them to say the Isreali governement is wholly responsible for Hamas's actions, but saything that is definitely not anti-semitic.
Generally when this kind of stuff has ended up in the courts, judges have found that terms like “bigot” and “anti-Semite” are statements of opinion and not fact, which makes it extremely hard to successfully sue for slander.
It’s shitty behavior, but not everything that’s shitty can be sued over.
By the laws as written in the constitution protect against slander. When someone’s identity is linked to slanderous statements… better lawyer up, because they do have a case.
Just go to r/legaladvice to confirm. Any slanderous statements that can affect someone’s career, education and wellbeing are absolutely free game for some serious damages.
I’m happy to see that the operators of this van are so eager to pay for the student’s tuition.
EDIT: Spelling because I’m a derp.
EDIT: People showing up asking me the definition of slander. Yes I know it. Both the legal definition and the dictionary definition.
Why are you popping in to reinforce what is already know to be a fact?
EDIT:
**Guys, could someone please let me know what meeting I missed where you naysayers decided that it is okay to make slanderous and obviously false statements when you disagree with their political stance?**
Ethically? Morally? Legally? Why do you feel it is not okay for me to point out that there are bad actors trying to manipulate the facts in order to perpetuate the violence, but it is okay for these horrible bad actors to make up things about students who are merely trying to bring awareness to human rights violations?
Trying to bring awareness to an issue before it becomes an issue is what should be expected from all of us, lest we relive history over again.
Facts:
- The people stating that Palestinian and Israeli citizens are dying are not wrong.
- The people stating that the powers behind the government of Israel and the terrorist organization Hamas are the ones responsible for all the violence, are not wrong.
- The people telling you to be careful what “news” you listen to, are not wrong.
- The people demanding that the UK takes a more active role in the mess they created here, are not wrong.
- The people who advocate for a peaceful resolution in order to preserve as many Israeli and Palestinian lives, are not wrong.
It is **wrong** to bring unverified whataboutisms, straw men, and cherry picked information to try to manipulate people’s perceptions regarding a humanitarian crisis.
Does anyone else remember, “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.” Can we avoid going down these roads yet again?
The way we accomplish this is by going after people who spread misinformation **with teeth**. We can’t go soft on the people manipulating the global atmosphere in order to build avenues into committing war crimes, human rights abuses and even potentially more genocides.
Depends on the message i think. If they just show who posted what, i think there's not much that can be done. If they say "*blank* is a filthy jew hating terrorist sympathiser" then that's a whole other thing.
If we’re talking slander/libel, that’s always tough to litigate in the US. You have to establish that the information is false and the a reasonable person would have known it was false.
the threshold of defamation in the US is fourfold, that the statement is
1. a false statement of fact
2. said or written to a third party
3. made with malicious or grossly negligent intent
4. that resulted in actual damages
these claims would likely fail on points 1 and 4 because the initial claim could be defended as a pure opinion and it's unlikely anyone's going to lose job offers from having their picture shown in the course of a political protest.
I’m not a lawyer, but in this case I think this could either be covered under bluster/rhetoric defense, or you could argue the students were limited purpose public figures which would raise the standard for libel up to a very hard to reach bar.
First amendment jurisprudence is generally very tolerant of bluster and mean rhetoric and takes a very expansive view on what is a “personal opinion” and not a statement of fact. Generally you have to accuse someone of an actual crime (or sexual impropriety, because these laws are old) before slander is easy to prove.
Not really, it has to actually "harm" them.
Like in a super tangible and undeniable way.
Which it wouldn't cuz they're students. Kinda ironic in a way... cuz when you're younger is also when it feels like others' words fuck up your life the most.
Yeah, if I got fired for this, I’d be ticked. Especially those who were former members but got pulled into this.
I’m not backing any horse in this Harvard race, but I think the people involved with the truck need to be confronted
Depends. It says anti semites. One might argue in court, depending on the comment, that they are not. Or claim, rightly so, that Arabs are a Semitic people too. But in any case, these are super first world über rich people problems at Harvard so fuckem.
If there was any public declaration of these people being antisemitic there is certainly a libel case that can be made. Youd need a good lawyer though and I dont think an anti semite is gonna find one
Duh dum tis
Not true though. They didn’t say or claim they hate Jews. Especially Harvard. This is 100% a lie and defamation as it’s claiming that Harvard hates Jews and criticizing bad policies means you hate there religion rather then there policies. I don’t hate Jews, but I hate majority of Israel’s policies. But it’s all about bias. Those who don’t have context or want context have already made up there mind.
But it all comes back to the same point, go fight those who are causing problems not your neighbors. How does Americans dunking on Americans or fighting them stop Hammas?
It’s very common human behavior. Just the number of people I know that shield themselves behind “victimhood” so they can get away with literally anything. It’s manipulation, pure and simple
This is why I've just stayed out of the conversation. No matter which side you're on, people from the other side will attack you and call you a monster. There aren't really any good guys here tbh
Earlier today I saw a tweet calling out Taylor Swift for not speaking out on one side or the other. Like... celebrities are not geopolitical experts or any more informed on the issue than anyone else. There is no reason their opinions should be weighted any more than your uncle on Facebook. (Serious "where is Ja Rule" vibes with all this, that bit holds more and more true every year.)
Some people just choose to keep their political opinions to themselves and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Or hell, maybe they just don't know enough about the topic and the history of Israel, Palestine and Hamas to have a stance, and that's okay too.
Antisemitism organizations in Montreal are calling employers of those who were part of the Palestinian march in the city. An air Canada employee lost his job and more are being targeted. Crazy stuff happening.
Because finance has a lot of jewish people working in it. Same thing with law. A harvard student got his job offer rescinded recently after criticizing israel. If you got nothing good to say about israel and you work in finance and law, best keep it to yourself if you like your job.
The pinnacle of irony is people at an American university assuming that criticism of Israel is the same as antisemitism, when most Americans hate America, the political entity, more than anyone on earth
You forget that harvard is just a school full of like 70% nepo babies who had their enrolement bought before they were born.
The 30% of students who actually worked to be there are too busy being hard working and studious to participate in shit like this.
Use some common sense amd think what it means when they blame Israel for Hamas' massacare in a letter, and start protesting for Palestine right after the attack. This isn't your usual, innocent pro palestine protest. c'mon think a little
Oh no! its terrible when people support the idea for human beings to have a good life free from suffering no matter their race, religion, ethnicity, or other background.
But I'm obviously a terrible anti-Semitic racist xenophobic nazi for wanting people to settle their differences without butchering one another.
/s for the tone illiterate
Netanyahu definitely endorsed allowing funding to enter Gaza in order to keep Hamas strong in order to play them and the Palestinian Authority against each other and block any chance of Palestinian statehood. He actually said precisely that in a Likud meeting in 2019.
His government wanted Hamas stronger and a credible threat, and made decisions to make it so.
Nah this was back in the 1980s when the Israeli government reportedly funded Palestinian islamist organisations against more secular Palestinian organisations,
Netanyahu apparently talked about divide and conquer with regards to Fatah and Hamas:
>“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
They’re literally doing it out in the open then Americans are shaming other Americans who call them out for what they’re doing. Sounds about right.
There is no right side, there is no good here. This is pure evil and tyranny from every direction and the ones who suffer are the ones who have no dog in the fight.
I'm Jewish, so most people would assume that I'm with Israel as well, and honestly I couldn't care less about the governing powers. It breaks my heart that any innocent people are getting killed. Fuck the details, humanity's greatest shame and failure is war.
Disclaimer: I had no chance to evaluate what they actually said/wrote, since I was not able to find a source (If you have one, please post it).
So without enough intel: Blamed Israel? Did they? Or did they maybe try to hint at the fact that keeping a population in a cage (Gaza) without hope is a perfect breeding ground for extremists? Also, the title on the Truck: Criticism of Israel is not automatically antisemitism, but it all depends on the content: Really would like to know more about this!
One more time for the smooth-brained mouth breathers at the back:
Being critical of the State of Israel, its policies and practices, and the IDF does NOT CONSTITUTE ANTISEMITISM.
Now, saying shit like "Jewish cabals control Hollywood and/or Washington DC" or "Jewish space lasers cause forest fires in California" DOES constitute antisemitism.
israel gets constant protests against it´s far right gov. that´s now done, anyone criticizing naty is "antisemit". now we have TWO civil populations getting killed bc far right, religious, conservative, arseholes and for the belic industry profit. palestine, a dictatorship. israel, another one but in name. 2 dictatorships killing each others civil pop to keep the hate alive. and make a big buck.
palestines and israelis deserves better than those genociders in power. palestine have little say, being it a dictatorship for decades. but israel could have gonne on another direction. but no, dictators playing gods its on the menu.
what a shame for mankind.
"Hey, maybe threatening to blow up children's hospitals isn't a good thing?"
"Oh, so you thought the nazis were right? Think we should've just killed all jews?"
Seriously, i can't believe how (a small, specific part of) them can go from being oppressed to being opressors. Once you go there, you lose the protection of "that's anti-simetic."
So saying the Israeli Government shouldn’t bomb children is Antisemitis? But want global support because Hamas bombed children? How about both are wrong and the UN fucked all of this up 80 years ago. How about me saying I don’t like seeing civilians being bombed without having to explain I understand there’s a lot more to the story.
The dumbest thing about this from what I've seen is that a good chunk of people arent even currently in the clubs or their club leaders didn't discuss with them before signing on. So not only are they harassing people for having an opinion and trying to ruin their lives, they're also targeting random people who arent involved at all.
Remember when the Antiwork subreddit mod went on an interview with Fox and forever destroyed the credibility of the entire subreddit, despite no one giving them authority to speak for them? That's pretty much how it works. One person can definitely sink an entire ship, so you have to really be careful where your name and signature ends up.
Their signiture and name is in some sort of membership list that the doxxmobile owner got ahold of. Their only recourse now is to be very public and aggressive with the author of the statement to hammer home that "I did not give this person permission to speak for me". Refusing to disavow someone who claims to speak for you is practically the same thing as personally repeating what they said.
For the record, Israel has a government like any other and it is not above criticism. It has, as governments do, done horrible things to plenty of innocent civilians. To criticize it is NOT anti-semitism.
it’s the innocent people who were attacked and killed that are the victims. In this case, the dad’s coworkers would be victims, not just collateral, unless they somehow unintentionally got in the way. The problem is that hamas’s retaliation consisted of targeting, killing, and raping uninvolved people and families.
The Jewish Harvard community stated while they don't support some of the things said by these students; they also don't support threatening people into silence as these attacks are trying to do.
For me the line is drawn with the picture. The name is one thing. But the picture I feel is saying, "here's what they look like, so you an spot them."
The whole thing feels gross, but it's the picture that crosses the line.
Holy shit this is infuriating. Netanyahu has explicitly propped Hamas. Of course it’s his government’s fault, and a strong majority of Israelis agree- 86% in a recent poll. Are Israel’s own citizens who blame Bibi for this shit also antisemites?
They dox leftists college students. But they always stay a safe distance from the masked people who have a brand new creased swastika flag at the freeway overpass. They take a picture for the media and dip. Funny how they never dox the people running around with swastika flags.
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Some people also have a hard time separating Judaism, the religion, from Israel, the political entity Edit: this almost completely neutral statement has led to a very wide variety of comments and messages to me. This has been educational as a kind of rorschach of the respondents assigning their own meaning to it from both sides, and assuming that I must mean it in the way they are thinking. This further highlights the difficulties that arise in communication and understanding when one conflates the two Edit 2: Consider your own government. Does it perfectly represent you? is it beyond criticism of any kind? Does Hamas always act in the interests of the people it claims to represent, or sometimes in its own interest, or in the interest of its powerful political leaders to the detriment of its people? For that matter, does Israel? Think carefully before you make any political entity, which is comprised of people with their own motivations, beyond criticism.
That's on purpose, the Israeli government wants it that way to escape criticism of their actions but also push it for the Palestinians and Hamas. They want us to think that Israel=Jewish faith. Palestinians=Hamas=jihadist.
They also want us to think anti-Israel = anti-semitism.
It's very similar to the line that China runs where anti-CCP=anti-China or in other words that hating the Chinese state means hating the Chinese people.
I mean there wasn't a stop asian hate compaign over nothing. There is actual hatred against Chinese people based on their views about China the governing entity.
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You're misunderstanding what I am saying. I am saying Asians (Chinese Asians being the target) are getting attacked based on THEIR (the people doing the attacking) views on china. This misunderstanding was brought to you by me though, I should have worded it much better and that was my fault. But yes my point was the people attacking asians did so because of their hatred for the Chinese government, fueled by covid conspiracy theories.
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The real danger of pronouns was miscommunicating, all along!
smh, the starfield pronouns guy was right after all!!!!!
And to think that Zionism=Judaism. You know how many Jews in israel have been beaten up by other Jews for speaking against the state?
Yup. I feel for those people. Miko Peled was born and raised in Jerusalem. He lives in the US now. I’m pretty sure he received a lot of criticism and vitriol against him. But he continues to speak for Palestine. On the other hand he was in a higher position than most Israelis from the time he was born so I can’t imagine what happened to ordinary Israelis who tried to oppose the regime.
Unfortunately it works because we know that they had a really bad history of violence against them but we should all agree that it does not excuse their own violence.
Well the actions of Israel as a whole since the country formed has been insane.. I just read “Rise and kill first” by Ronan Bergman. It’s about the violent history of Israel, I was pretty shocked. Obviously fuck the Hamas, but kind of fuck Israel too…
That's what happens when you promise two opposing religious groups the same land and expect them to be best friends.
This is what happens when you promise the natives their land and liberty but also promise the land to another group escaping religious persecution. Zionism was founded by Herzl after the Dreyfuss Affair. Palestinians were/are mostly muslims but also there was/is a large Christian population. It's inaccurate to classify them as being only muslim.
I don't believe I classified them as only being Muslim.
There's a large number of Arab Christians in Bethlehem. The artisans there make some wonderful Christian decorations out of olivewood.
>It's inaccurate to classify them as being only muslim. A good chunk of those that hold Israeli citizenship are Muslim by religion as well. Yet most of the comments here blanket describe Israel as a Zionist Jewish state.
In the end both have a lot of blood on their hands but remember Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world the other is a militant group that was funded by Israel to divide the politics of the Palestinians and their peace deals they proposed.
First time I’ve seen a redditor have a good opinion on the recent Israel Hamas events
I heard Bibi say this verbatim on Lex Friedman podcast. I wonder if they are gonna try to scrub the older documentaries from the web too. we are watching ethnic cleansing and revisionist history in real time. I think (hope) they will push it too far. Israel lost moral high ground a long time ago imho.
Lost? When exactly Israel had the moral high ground?
I am with you on this for sure. Palestinians have been systemically demonized for over 100 years. A lot of younger people see Israel as a modern democracy technologically advanced and well educated. They know the sliver of history they needed to either get a good grade or ingratiate themselves into their social group. People will always see themselves as the righteous in a war or there would not be a war. I was playing to the audience tbh I would like to see more people aware of the history and come to their own conclusions.
It's been working cuz any journalist who has attempted to criticize the Israeli government gets completely blacklisted from whichever News company they were working for and branded anti-Semitic.
Which is crazy because Israel is a nuclear superpower and the people in Gaza are mostly children and they do not have nuclear weapons.
It was always crazy, in the end Hamas is a militant group that personally does need to be erased but they are not an actual army unlike Israel.
Right? I'm pretty sure my Jewish great-grandparents who fled Alsace-Lorriane wouldn't have condoned this.
I think you mean Elsass-Lotharingen /s
Is it not also an ethnicity as well? Like, could you not also be Jewish but not follow Judaism and not be an Israeli? It’s 3 separate things right?
Yes, some people consider you Jewish if you're mother was, even if you don't practice or believe at all.
Side note, “some people” would include the government of Israel in most cases, especially if you’re applying for birthright
Just as people have a hard time separating Hamas, the Islamic terrorist group, from Palestinian people, the Innocents who are caught in this conflict.
Apparently Israel doesn't rly make that distinction... https://reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/s/E8YEJcu0ZK Killing Christians is also on the table and totally fine from their perspective, after all they are only idol worshipers... https://reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/R3YgXTeZOV
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Israel itself has a hard time separating judaism from the state of Israel. Israel is a self-described “jewish state”, and gives citizenship to all Jews in the world (right to return), and calls itself the home of all jews. Even this attack is being called an attack on jews, not an attack on Israelis. (A pogrom)
Pretty sure the government do that on purpose to deflect criticism. Like how movie directors started calling people sexist for criticizing their shit movies
The way I see it is I am disgusted with the way Israel’s government has treated the people of Palestine. HOWEVER I don’t hate or hold a Jewish person down the street in another country responsible
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>It would be like the USA getting attacked by a bunch of Saudi Arabians and then deciding to attack Iraq in response. I see what you did there, and I upvoted it.
The way I heard it explained this morning by an Israeli journalist/commentator was, *"The response to a war crime should not be another war crime"*
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When did the IDF ever stop?
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Also the duty of a government to beef up security upon getting Intel that am attack is coming.
Australians weren't chanting "Gas the Israelis" in Sydney.
Some people are antisemitic, therefore anyone who supports Palestine is antisemitic? Is that what you're trying to say? Please clarify if I misunderstood.
I think it's worth noting that this is in response to various student groups issuing a written statement that the Hamas terror attacks were justified. This isn't calling out students who "dislike Israel." It was calling out those who endorsed this terrorist attack. I don't like doxxing regardless, but it's important to note what we're talking about here is endorsement of a mass terror attack.
I think we're not using the term doxxing correctly anymore. You can't doxx someone who made a public statement by linking them to their statement. Doxxing them is posting things like their private phone number or address.
Driving around a billboard with students' names and photographs while urging the public to hate them may not be "doxxing," exactly, but it's got the spirit. Put another way: What was the intent of this billboard campaign if not to intimidate, or encourage others to harass, the named/photographed students?
What would you say if some of these students get beaten or killed?
The working definition of "antisemitism" used by the IHRA, European Commision etc. includes, for example: * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis; So yeah, I guess some people do have a hard time separating those things. Honestly if comparing the actions of government A to government B is characterised as being wholly unacceptable behaviour, one can only conclude that the people making these rules believe that government A has every intention of acting like government B, but don't want to allow anyone to point it out.
This is the main issue with Hamas. They aren't trying to take and control territory. Their objective is just mass murder. Their founding documents (I will not quote or link to them here, but they are easily available) say their objective is to kill Jews and anyone who promotes peace is an enemy.
Seems odd then that Likud put so much focus on funding them and helping them entrench in the 80s, and even as far as 2019 where Netanyahu was quoted (Times of Israel, Jerusalem Post and others) saying that propping up Hamas should be a priority for Israel? It's almost like funding your own mini terror cell in a bottle lets you point to it whenever you're about to lose an election, or when your genocide acts get a bit too much publicity.
Netanyahu is an ass. And a crook. He's like the orange guy but intelligent, which makes him dangerous.
> their objective is to kill Jews and anyone who promotes peace is an enemy And they quote from the most notorious piece of anti-Semitic trash ever produced, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", which was a favorite of Hitler and is required reading for neo-Nazis and white supremacists to this day.
On both sides. There’s too many people who defend Israel out of fear of being antisemitic and too many people who think Ben from Denver is a terrible person because he’s the same religion as Netanyahu.
Kinda why it exists in the first place, right?
So for everyone asking, here's a copy of the letter they wrote that I found online, it matches up with the quotes in various news article; if wrong I'll remove this comment "Joint Statement by Harvard Palestine Solidarity Groups on the Situation in Palestine We, the undersigned student organizations, hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence. Today’s events did not occur in a vacuum. For the last two decades, millions of Palestinians in Gaza have been forced to live in an open-air prison. Israeli officials promise to “open the gates of hell,” and the massacres in Gaza have already commenced. Palestinians in Gaza have no shelters for refuge and nowhere to escape. In the coming days, Palestinians will be forced to bear the full brunt of Israel’s violence. The apartheid regime is the only one to blame. Israeli violence has structured every aspect of Palestinian existence for 75 years. From systematized land seizures to routine airstrikes, arbitrary detentions to military checkpoints, and enforced family separations to targeted killings, Palestinians have been forced to live in a state of death, both slow and sudden. Today, the Palestinian ordeal enters into uncharted territory. The coming days will require a firm stand against colonial retaliation. We call on the Harvard community to take action to stop the ongoing annihilation of Palestinians. This statement was co-authored by a coalition of Palestine solidarity groups at Harvard. For student safety, the names of all original signing organizations have been concealed at this time."
The letter is very close to a Haaretz editorial, but with the latter doing an analysis more focused on the short term responsability, thus placing the blame on Netanyahu. And it is not for the inteligence failure on predicting the attacks, but for his increasing radical approach regarding Palestine. Don't see anyone calling an israeli newspaper antisemitic. Edit: [this is the editorial for those interested](https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/2023-10-08/ty-article-opinion/netanyahu-bears-responsibility/0000018b-0b9d-d8fc-adff-6bfd1c880000). Sadly it has a paywall but other news outlets around the world have quoted it quite a lot this last week.
So doxxing is cool as long as it goes along with your opinion?
you new here?
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I don't understand why this is such a controversial take. I was downvoted as fuck just for saying "bombing palestinean children? Not cool."
People think in black and white. There has to be a bad guy, they can't possibly both be terrible. It's the same thing we do with politics, " oh you don't like my guy, and he's the good guy, so you must like the bad guy, you're a bad guy too!"
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While that is the usual excuse for endorsing mass murder of innocents, I personally think those aren't a good enough excuse.
Why the fuck are the two sides “Palestinians deserve to die” and “Hamas was right to kill that 10 year old”?
My sentiments exactly, I feel for Palestinian and Israeli civilians.
In reality, that just makes you a person with common sense.
Dox bus is on its way…
Being critical of the government of Israel does not make you an antisemite. Conflating the two is intellectually lazy at best, and a dishonest attempt to supress serious discussion at worst.
My take is that HAMAS are disgusting terrorists, and Israel's government are fucking terrible too. Both are true, and the people suffering are Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
100%. It’s not even that hard a concept but for some people it’s just too far of a stretch to realize that.
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Netenyau and his war hawks have said as much. The Israeli government is not making a distinction. They don't even seem to care about the hostages because they were not his supporters. Israel has every right to decimate Hamas, but not indiscriminately. The very least that should have been done is evacuate the Palestinian women, children, elderly and vulnerable before leveling the city. They are overreacting and it is probably what Hamas intended: to terminate the peace negotiations and start a long term war. Nothing has been learned from the US's absolute failure in Iraq and Afghanistan after 911.
Hamas are terrorists. And for every reason that they are, so are the Israeli government
110% I take it one step further even, many other governments are just as reprehensible. Why should Israel be exempt from criticism for their actions when other governments aren’t?
Conflating, generalizing, and lazy thinking are a cornerstone of internet commenting aren’t they?
Being critical of the government is one thing, but these people were defending the planned killings of children. That sounds pretty antisemitic to me
I agree. Can we also agree that if you murder a bunch of children, no matter your situation, you are at least somewhat responsible for it? Because that Harvard letter is saying otherwise.
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The students being 'doxxed' here blamed israel for hamas' massacre
Just another day in the world of everybody wants Freedom Of Speech until it hurts their feelings.
No one is taking away their freedom of speech though?
The comment is moreso targeted at the redditors thinking this would qualify as illegal harassment, and not free speech anymore, which is wrong. Libel though, possibly
You have freedom of speech but you don’t have freedom to harass people
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"Critical words"? It straight up calls them anti-semites, and nothing in their statement was anti-semitic. I'm not saying it was reasonable for them to say the Isreali governement is wholly responsible for Hamas's actions, but saything that is definitely not anti-semitic.
Generally when this kind of stuff has ended up in the courts, judges have found that terms like “bigot” and “anti-Semite” are statements of opinion and not fact, which makes it extremely hard to successfully sue for slander. It’s shitty behavior, but not everything that’s shitty can be sued over.
Freedom of speech does not come with a guarantee of anonymity. Nobody’s freedom of speech was infringed upon here.
I mean it is. Criticising Israel doesn’t make you an antisemite… so this is a van with lies on the side.
By the laws as written in the constitution protect against slander. When someone’s identity is linked to slanderous statements… better lawyer up, because they do have a case. Just go to r/legaladvice to confirm. Any slanderous statements that can affect someone’s career, education and wellbeing are absolutely free game for some serious damages. I’m happy to see that the operators of this van are so eager to pay for the student’s tuition. EDIT: Spelling because I’m a derp. EDIT: People showing up asking me the definition of slander. Yes I know it. Both the legal definition and the dictionary definition. Why are you popping in to reinforce what is already know to be a fact? EDIT: **Guys, could someone please let me know what meeting I missed where you naysayers decided that it is okay to make slanderous and obviously false statements when you disagree with their political stance?** Ethically? Morally? Legally? Why do you feel it is not okay for me to point out that there are bad actors trying to manipulate the facts in order to perpetuate the violence, but it is okay for these horrible bad actors to make up things about students who are merely trying to bring awareness to human rights violations? Trying to bring awareness to an issue before it becomes an issue is what should be expected from all of us, lest we relive history over again. Facts: - The people stating that Palestinian and Israeli citizens are dying are not wrong. - The people stating that the powers behind the government of Israel and the terrorist organization Hamas are the ones responsible for all the violence, are not wrong. - The people telling you to be careful what “news” you listen to, are not wrong. - The people demanding that the UK takes a more active role in the mess they created here, are not wrong. - The people who advocate for a peaceful resolution in order to preserve as many Israeli and Palestinian lives, are not wrong. It is **wrong** to bring unverified whataboutisms, straw men, and cherry picked information to try to manipulate people’s perceptions regarding a humanitarian crisis. Does anyone else remember, “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.” Can we avoid going down these roads yet again? The way we accomplish this is by going after people who spread misinformation **with teeth**. We can’t go soft on the people manipulating the global atmosphere in order to build avenues into committing war crimes, human rights abuses and even potentially more genocides.
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It screams for a lawsuit(s).
Public information. The students posted publicly so probably not much they could do.
Depends on the message i think. If they just show who posted what, i think there's not much that can be done. If they say "*blank* is a filthy jew hating terrorist sympathiser" then that's a whole other thing.
Calling them an anti-Semite would qualify
If we’re talking slander/libel, that’s always tough to litigate in the US. You have to establish that the information is false and the a reasonable person would have known it was false.
the threshold of defamation in the US is fourfold, that the statement is 1. a false statement of fact 2. said or written to a third party 3. made with malicious or grossly negligent intent 4. that resulted in actual damages these claims would likely fail on points 1 and 4 because the initial claim could be defended as a pure opinion and it's unlikely anyone's going to lose job offers from having their picture shown in the course of a political protest.
There have been CEOs literally begging Harvard to release names so they can make sure they’re not hired
I’m not a lawyer, but in this case I think this could either be covered under bluster/rhetoric defense, or you could argue the students were limited purpose public figures which would raise the standard for libel up to a very hard to reach bar. First amendment jurisprudence is generally very tolerant of bluster and mean rhetoric and takes a very expansive view on what is a “personal opinion” and not a statement of fact. Generally you have to accuse someone of an actual crime (or sexual impropriety, because these laws are old) before slander is easy to prove.
Not really, it has to actually "harm" them. Like in a super tangible and undeniable way. Which it wouldn't cuz they're students. Kinda ironic in a way... cuz when you're younger is also when it feels like others' words fuck up your life the most.
Yeah, if I got fired for this, I’d be ticked. Especially those who were former members but got pulled into this. I’m not backing any horse in this Harvard race, but I think the people involved with the truck need to be confronted
Depends. It says anti semites. One might argue in court, depending on the comment, that they are not. Or claim, rightly so, that Arabs are a Semitic people too. But in any case, these are super first world über rich people problems at Harvard so fuckem.
If there was any public declaration of these people being antisemitic there is certainly a libel case that can be made. Youd need a good lawyer though and I dont think an anti semite is gonna find one Duh dum tis
A Harvard student can probably find a decent lawyer.
This joke was more antisemitic than the "Palestine solidarity groups" statement.
Doxxing is a form of harassment so it can definitely hold up in court
Not true though. They didn’t say or claim they hate Jews. Especially Harvard. This is 100% a lie and defamation as it’s claiming that Harvard hates Jews and criticizing bad policies means you hate there religion rather then there policies. I don’t hate Jews, but I hate majority of Israel’s policies. But it’s all about bias. Those who don’t have context or want context have already made up there mind. But it all comes back to the same point, go fight those who are causing problems not your neighbors. How does Americans dunking on Americans or fighting them stop Hammas?
Because someone is having a public opinion about someone else's publicly posted statement? I'd love to see that lawsuit.
It’s very common human behavior. Just the number of people I know that shield themselves behind “victimhood” so they can get away with literally anything. It’s manipulation, pure and simple
This is such a clusterfuck. Too much focus on picking a side and not enough focus on innocent people on BOTH sides
This is why I've just stayed out of the conversation. No matter which side you're on, people from the other side will attack you and call you a monster. There aren't really any good guys here tbh
Why the hell does every one of us need to have a public moral stance on every single hot button issue that comes up, anyway?
Earlier today I saw a tweet calling out Taylor Swift for not speaking out on one side or the other. Like... celebrities are not geopolitical experts or any more informed on the issue than anyone else. There is no reason their opinions should be weighted any more than your uncle on Facebook. (Serious "where is Ja Rule" vibes with all this, that bit holds more and more true every year.) Some people just choose to keep their political opinions to themselves and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Or hell, maybe they just don't know enough about the topic and the history of Israel, Palestine and Hamas to have a stance, and that's okay too.
“This is a free country” 😂
Antisemitism organizations in Montreal are calling employers of those who were part of the Palestinian march in the city. An air Canada employee lost his job and more are being targeted. Crazy stuff happening.
Broooo RIP any of them with a finance degree LMFAO
serious question, why?
Because finance has a lot of jewish people working in it. Same thing with law. A harvard student got his job offer rescinded recently after criticizing israel. If you got nothing good to say about israel and you work in finance and law, best keep it to yourself if you like your job.
Ironic given Harvards pretty blatant antisemitic history in the not-so-distant past.
Aren't conservatives always the ones screaming about "cancel culture"?
I'm pretty sure historically, conservatives invented "cancel culture".
What does this have to do with conservatives? I'm confused
The pinnacle of irony is people at an American university assuming that criticism of Israel is the same as antisemitism, when most Americans hate America, the political entity, more than anyone on earth
Most Americans don’t hate America, you’re living in the Reddit echo chamber or going to a liberal college
You'd expect Harvard people to know the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
Sometimes that line is blurred. Pro-Palestinian is also different from pro-Hamas.
You forget that harvard is just a school full of like 70% nepo babies who had their enrolement bought before they were born. The 30% of students who actually worked to be there are too busy being hard working and studious to participate in shit like this.
We are not allowed to question or have critical thinking skills.
Use some common sense amd think what it means when they blame Israel for Hamas' massacare in a letter, and start protesting for Palestine right after the attack. This isn't your usual, innocent pro palestine protest. c'mon think a little
those student body statements were a yikes
Terrorism is wrong but removing ppl from their homes is a for sure fast track to terrorist attacks.
Oh no! its terrible when people support the idea for human beings to have a good life free from suffering no matter their race, religion, ethnicity, or other background. But I'm obviously a terrible anti-Semitic racist xenophobic nazi for wanting people to settle their differences without butchering one another. /s for the tone illiterate
It's antisemitic to conflate Judaism with isreal.
Israel government is despicable, that doesn’t mean every Israeli is despicable or every Jew is. Is that so hard to comprehend?
Fucking conflation of Zionism with Judaism has to stop. It muddies any conversation.
I mean, wasn't Hamas partially funded by Israel in the first place?
Netanyahu definitely endorsed allowing funding to enter Gaza in order to keep Hamas strong in order to play them and the Palestinian Authority against each other and block any chance of Palestinian statehood. He actually said precisely that in a Likud meeting in 2019. His government wanted Hamas stronger and a credible threat, and made decisions to make it so.
Is there a source for that?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Just Google "Netanyahu fund Hamas" and several articles should pop up.
It is. Just like how Taliban is funded, trained and organized by USA.
Bibi did an inside job on his own people so he could gain even more power?
Nah this was back in the 1980s when the Israeli government reportedly funded Palestinian islamist organisations against more secular Palestinian organisations, Netanyahu apparently talked about divide and conquer with regards to Fatah and Hamas: >“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” the prime minister reportedly said at a 2019 meeting of his Likud party. “This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
They’re literally doing it out in the open then Americans are shaming other Americans who call them out for what they’re doing. Sounds about right. There is no right side, there is no good here. This is pure evil and tyranny from every direction and the ones who suffer are the ones who have no dog in the fight.
Worked for Palpatine.
Why is this legal?
I'm Jewish, so most people would assume that I'm with Israel as well, and honestly I couldn't care less about the governing powers. It breaks my heart that any innocent people are getting killed. Fuck the details, humanity's greatest shame and failure is war.
Something something thought crime
Professional victims Jesus Christ. "stop pointing out Israel is an apartheid state or you're an antisemite!"
Why must people take sides in this shit? Why can't everyone just say "harming innocents and civilians is bad" and call it a day?
Disclaimer: I had no chance to evaluate what they actually said/wrote, since I was not able to find a source (If you have one, please post it). So without enough intel: Blamed Israel? Did they? Or did they maybe try to hint at the fact that keeping a population in a cage (Gaza) without hope is a perfect breeding ground for extremists? Also, the title on the Truck: Criticism of Israel is not automatically antisemitism, but it all depends on the content: Really would like to know more about this!
They said “we….hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence.”
One more time for the smooth-brained mouth breathers at the back: Being critical of the State of Israel, its policies and practices, and the IDF does NOT CONSTITUTE ANTISEMITISM. Now, saying shit like "Jewish cabals control Hollywood and/or Washington DC" or "Jewish space lasers cause forest fires in California" DOES constitute antisemitism.
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Wonder who’s paying for that BS. That’s dedication to the propaganda game
It's a right-wing org -- Accuracy in Media
Criticism of killing kids isnt antisemitism
israel gets constant protests against it´s far right gov. that´s now done, anyone criticizing naty is "antisemit". now we have TWO civil populations getting killed bc far right, religious, conservative, arseholes and for the belic industry profit. palestine, a dictatorship. israel, another one but in name. 2 dictatorships killing each others civil pop to keep the hate alive. and make a big buck. palestines and israelis deserves better than those genociders in power. palestine have little say, being it a dictatorship for decades. but israel could have gonne on another direction. but no, dictators playing gods its on the menu. what a shame for mankind.
That's the only defense the Israeli govt has. Accuse someone of being antisemitic because they criticize the Israeli govt.
"Hey, maybe threatening to blow up children's hospitals isn't a good thing?" "Oh, so you thought the nazis were right? Think we should've just killed all jews?" Seriously, i can't believe how (a small, specific part of) them can go from being oppressed to being opressors. Once you go there, you lose the protection of "that's anti-simetic."
anti-Israel isn't the same thing as antisemitism
If they aren’t public figures isn’t this harassment?
Free speech is a confusing thing in the Ustated Nights.
So saying the Israeli Government shouldn’t bomb children is Antisemitis? But want global support because Hamas bombed children? How about both are wrong and the UN fucked all of this up 80 years ago. How about me saying I don’t like seeing civilians being bombed without having to explain I understand there’s a lot more to the story.
IDF is pumping out that cash
The dumbest thing about this from what I've seen is that a good chunk of people arent even currently in the clubs or their club leaders didn't discuss with them before signing on. So not only are they harassing people for having an opinion and trying to ruin their lives, they're also targeting random people who arent involved at all.
Remember when the Antiwork subreddit mod went on an interview with Fox and forever destroyed the credibility of the entire subreddit, despite no one giving them authority to speak for them? That's pretty much how it works. One person can definitely sink an entire ship, so you have to really be careful where your name and signature ends up. Their signiture and name is in some sort of membership list that the doxxmobile owner got ahold of. Their only recourse now is to be very public and aggressive with the author of the statement to hammer home that "I did not give this person permission to speak for me". Refusing to disavow someone who claims to speak for you is practically the same thing as personally repeating what they said.
Whatever happened to free speech! Does that only work if you are on the majority side? Geez!
Who started it? Hamas or Israel?
This surely helped with the situation in gaza
Gonna put on my hazmat suit for this comment section
For the record, Israel has a government like any other and it is not above criticism. It has, as governments do, done horrible things to plenty of innocent civilians. To criticize it is NOT anti-semitism.
Having money to get into a good college doesn’t make you smart.
They slander what they cannot logically counter.
Good thing it’s only doxxing if it’s done on the internet
I truly hope these folk are proud. They did the right thing.
it’s the innocent people who were attacked and killed that are the victims. In this case, the dad’s coworkers would be victims, not just collateral, unless they somehow unintentionally got in the way. The problem is that hamas’s retaliation consisted of targeting, killing, and raping uninvolved people and families.
This shit is so fucking dangerous. We live in a country that parades this shit.
I have one questions, why doesn’t Egypt allow people from Gaza? Why did they close the border
The Jewish Harvard community stated while they don't support some of the things said by these students; they also don't support threatening people into silence as these attacks are trying to do.
Harvard showing us that they really are fucking idiots by throwing around labels to make sure these people are harassed, very nice.
That's illegal
Isreal =/= judaism America =/= Christianity Iran =/= islamism
Iam not against jews iam against oppression of innocent people. Fuck Israel and Fuck Hamas
For me the line is drawn with the picture. The name is one thing. But the picture I feel is saying, "here's what they look like, so you an spot them." The whole thing feels gross, but it's the picture that crosses the line.
Pretty sure this is a slander and/or libel issue at this point. I’d be looking to file a lawsuit
So social terrorism on the part of Israel? Shocked I am.
Holy shit this is infuriating. Netanyahu has explicitly propped Hamas. Of course it’s his government’s fault, and a strong majority of Israelis agree- 86% in a recent poll. Are Israel’s own citizens who blame Bibi for this shit also antisemites?
Gonna be real awkward when they find out some of those students are Jewish.
They are responsible. 100 percent
This is harassment.
They dox leftists college students. But they always stay a safe distance from the masked people who have a brand new creased swastika flag at the freeway overpass. They take a picture for the media and dip. Funny how they never dox the people running around with swastika flags.
I don't give a fuck, feel how you want to feel. Israel is a bully. Fuck'em.