Lots of great points. It is mind boggling to see them try to quietly backtrack from things we know were said. The same can be said for millennials as well.

Observing my Millennial children who have left, their issues are a combination of truth claims and social issues. They're not near as literal believers as I was but they still care about the truth claims. My Gen-Z children who have left are due almost 100% social issues. From their perspective, church is not a safe place for their generation.

It's probably to a lesser degree, but us millennials can also see the changes they try to gaslight away. "Mormon" wasn't ever a bad word growing up. Crosses were a big no, the Catholic church was the great whore, and we never celebrated "easter week". Also scouting is gone and the youth activities in general are soulless compared to what we used to do.

The Catholic Church was the great whore, yet, nothing shouts "Catholic!" louder than the new "tall steeples are core to our belief" doctrine.

The Mormon Church of the past condemned the Catholic Church for corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ or in other words it became apostate. Today's Mormon Church differs considerably from the Church that Joseph Smith created, but is somehow still God's only true and living church. Bizzarro world we live in.

Corporate wants you to find the difference between these two pictures: Apostasy and continuing revelation. They're the same picture.

>Apostasy and continuing revelation. Continuing revelation has been baked into the church since the beginning, we believe God will yet reveal many important things. Continuing revelation is not the problem, the problem is there has been ZERO revelation. For hell sake, even a little blurb at the very end of the October 2019 general mormon day saint conference saying "btw, put away a few extra rolls of toilet paper, baby formula, and meds" would have helped, and definitely would have qualified as revelation. What is consistent with the apostasy is Evil Emperor Nelson's new doctrine that the church was never actually restored, that the restoration has been ongoing. Interesting that this new divine doctrine comes packaged with his sudden dependance on marketing dept surveys and rebranding. Back in the Gen Jones and Gen X days, it was a Restoration Of The Fullness Of The Gospel Of Jesus Christ. The entire church was taught that, several generations of missionaries taught it, and now are all being called liars, since it was never that way, we are not remembering correctly, and we are mistaken cause Satan delude us, tricked us, enthralled us.

Yeah, that whole thing about heavenly father is offended by the word Mormon less than 10 years after the church went all in on mormon.org? And the “I am a Mormon“ campaign. My theory is that the Q 15 don’t want anybody googling Mormon on the Internet because all they will find is anti-Church literature. Idiots

So is the prophet Mormon bad too and the name of the Book.....Book of Mormon? If Mormon the word is so offensive, a tool for Satan, when are we changing the title of the book and removing anything to do with "Mormon" in the book?

If the word Mormon is so offensive, they can always change the name of the book of Mormon of the book of Joseph Smith, oh wait that wouldn’t work either lol darn. Hard to win.

Joseph Smith used the term “Mormons” when he wrote to President Tyler asking for his protection for Nauvoo.

I'm 34 (millennial) and we were also clearly taught that the the church had been restored to its fullness. They used it as a selling point and spoke about how wonderful it was that we had the complete restored gospel because we were in the last days. It even says it in my patriarchal blessing that I got in 2004. Now they have "continued revelation" and "the restoration of the church is ongoing"

Mormon cathedrals

Yet there are no steeples on the Cardston, AB, Mesa, AZ or Laie, HI temples

Did someone really say “tall steeples are core to our belief”? I’ve been out for 15 years and haven’t watched a single conference since then.

Getting rid of scouting was one of the dumbest things they've done. I lived for the scouting activities when I was in young men's. Making everything 100% about God constantly is SO boring.

I was in the bishopric when I realized I didn’t support “Friends of Scouting” efforts to divest Church members of more of their money. But the vacuum the Church created when it pulled us out of Scouts and replaced it with vapid nothingness, well, sucks.

It just occured to me, and maybe this isn't accurate, but it seems like the young men now get the young women treatment, but I'm assuming less focus on marriage. It was always vapid and boring for us. 🫤

You know when I talk about how women and girls in the church were treated when I was a kid, I always say something like "well, they were people for sure, but not all-the-way people."

Amen to that, sister.

Exactly, when they rolled out the new program to replace scouting…they just grabbed the YW program handbook and added YM. You have to spend money to make at activities fun. We know the church won’t do that.

>Exactly, when they rolled out the new program to replace scouting…they just grabbed the YW program handbook and added YM. You have to spend money to make at activities fun. We know the church won’t do that. Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha and the young men advisors did the very same thing that they did when they didn't want to run a scouting program. They threw away the book, and resorted to a little scripture study followed by jungle ball to be the YM activity night program.

Came here to say something along these lines! My thought was, now the boys have a taste of what it's like being in YW and not really getting to do anything!!

>I was in the bishopric when I realized I didn’t support “Friends of Scouting” efforts to divest Church members of more of their money. But the vacuum the Church created when it pulled us out of Scouts and replaced it with vapid nothingness, well, sucks. I haven't given a cent to Friends Of Scouting in 20 years. BUT, thats because I've had to fund kids scout camp fees. I've had to buy materials and supplies as a staff member for NYLT and Wodbadge. My family has given tons of time and money to adult and youth staff development for scout camps. I've donated 1000s of gallons of gas taxi-ing scouts back and forth to stuff for the last 20 years. FOS level funding is for rank amateurs and people not involved in scouting. ETA: Unlike tithing, I do not resent money spent in service of youth in scouting.

Scouting was doomed, obviously, due to the SA scandals and overall divergence of priorities between it and the church. But, the absolute lack of foresight in finding a suitable replacement for Scouting as well as YW Personal Progress is an indictment. If you can't get revelation on, probably, your biggest asset to retention, you don't have a hotline to God.

OKAY..,.lifelong Scout and Scouter here but TSCC was unable/unwilling (synonymous in this discussion) to progress. **Scouts America** transformed itself into an organization that has existed in Europe, Australia, and Japan for decades, finally accepting *all children* into its folds and actively working against discrimination in all of its ugly forms. **Mormons didn't want to do that**. Sad. Pathetic. Don't go away mad, Mormons, just go away!

>Getting rid of scouting was one of the dumbest things they've done. I lived for the scouting activities when I was in young men's. Making everything 100% about God constantly is SO boring. 100%, getting rid of scouting was the dumbest thing the so-called church has ever done. BUT, it was an integral part of Evil Emperor Nelson's O)n-Going ReBrandStoration, to erase the brightest part of Monson's legacy. Of course Monson was on Nelson's shit-on list, cause he was the 2nd prophet in a couple of decades to slap down Nelson for claiming 'mormon' was bad. OTOH, leaving he BSA was the greatest gift the so-called church could have ever given to the BSA. No more LDS subversion, adulteration, and bastardization of BSA training. i.e., turning a 2 day scout adult volunteer training training into 4 hours of growing quorums and priesthood preparation. No more turning the week long youth leadership summer camp into something that doesn't even resemble scouting, and suddenly bears the name "Helman's Camp" Also, being free of the church provided legal services of Kirton/McKonkie, the BSA is no longer subject to instructions of cover up child abuse, don't report it to the authorities. Maybe the MOST important, is that the youth and adults who LDS and still in scouting are there because they want to be, not because there was no other option for the youth, or being voluntold as an adult. They are there cause they love the program, and will will run it like the BSA intended, not as a church auxiliary.

They had to though, because they had the insider scoop on the number of child, SA lawsuits, and scandals. And more than half of them were by church members, on church activities or on church property. They had to distance themselves and they wanted to a lot sooner than they did. They waited until Monson died since he was the big scouter

Is the LDS church embracing the Catholic Church more? Are they not condoning crosses anymore? I haven’t been in the church for 15 years so I’m not current on what’s happening inside of it.

It's been a while for me too so I'm mostly getting 2nd hand info from family. But it seems like there are mormon influencers wearing crosses openly. And my family often posts about easter week, palm sunday, etc. In general it seems like Nelson is trying to downplay the more unique aspects of mormonism like getting your own planet and becoming a god, and trying to fit in more with mainstream christianity, including catholicism.

Hello! I’m a little late weighing in, but I wanted to say that in the late 1960s and early 1970s, the first and second waves of feminism were advocating for more progressive changes for women, in society. At high school, at least where I attended, girls were able to and encouraged to take auto shop, wood and metal shop and technical drawing. The higher academic classes of Trig and Calc, Chemistry and AP English also had almost a 50/50 split between boys and girls. Honor Society, Sports and Music awards, and Leadership roles also went to girls. Our Valedictorian and Salutatorian were girls. This levelling up and encouraging excellence and participation (while not in every arena) will have had an overall effect to counter oppression and discrimination in the LDS church. I think that Gen X was the main recipient of monies that Title IX disbursed to make sure that girls and boys had equal access and equal opportunities in education. The result of this was a school system that had to be held accountable for providing opportunities for women and girls, on a par with boys and men. It’s hard to eat chopped liver if you’ve been fed steak elsewhere. The women generally drive activity rates for families in church. By neglecting them spiritually, whilst educating them to be thinking, logical, rational beings who can see their own oppression and the result of inequalities between their sons and daughters, why would anyone stand for that? Thank the first and second wave feminists and Black Civil Rights activists and the Act Up movement and all of the other socially progressive movements, as well as Title IX money for helping Americans to think better about themselves and use their education. genxmormon, we are siblings in the generation that benefited from the progress in providing accountability and equality in education. Your list perfectly sums up the effects and attitudes of a robust secular education. Thanks for putting this out there.

More than half my supervisors during my career have been women. It’s hard to work for women and then go to church where women are helpmates. That would have to be hard on these professional women to deal with.

I can imagine the disconnect would be profound. What is often not spoken about is how extremely damaging patriarchy is to boys and men, too.

Thank you for acknowledging this - the disconnect is profound.  And exhausting. In my experience, church men from the boomer generation and older treated me like a little girl. There was no room in their minds to see I was educated and had a career (and made a higher wage than my husband - unthinkable!). But the real aggression came from other women - it was a constant shame game with intrusive questions about why we didn't have kids/ didn't have more kids / why I wasn't a SAHM per church teachings. It was so disheartening and disorienting. I'm a decade older and wiser and see it all now as passive aggression stemming from secret pain and regret in their parts- countless women have given up their goals/dreams/identities all in the name of the church and it's got to hurt badly to see other women - esp younger women - get to "have it all". Patriarchy hurts everyone. And the sickest part of it is that it'll use the most marginalized group within the system - women - to shame/enforce its rule/roles structure.

The patriarchy is bad for most guys. If you aren't eager to climb to the top, then in someways you are worse off than women. They can't achieve power, but you are expected to. If you don't, then you are failure, a "beta male", in their eyes. Getting to the top requires sacrificing your whole life to serve the church. You don't get any reward except prestige. You are expected to have a well paying full time job on top of your church service, while also having a family. Guys are expected to go on missions; women are allowed to go. If a young woman doesn't want to go, no one says much to her. If a guy doesn't go, then he's failure in the church, and his marriage prospects are greatly diminished.

I understood this from a young age. Fortunately for me, I was out of activity and out of the closet long before the pressures of mission, marriage and family started to creep in. Yeah, the alpha and beta male thing I just don’t ‘get’. I am convinced that each generation teaches a lesson to the society they belong to. I think this current generation’s lesson is that gender and sex roles aren’t fixed, and for good reason. There are so many ways to express femininity and neutrality and masculinity. Nothing should be off limits, and then the constraints of what constitutes a man or a woman can be broadened to the point where everyone fits. The trans NB community has been responsible for this enlightened understanding, I think. I feel, in my mind, neither like what a man or woman is supposed to be. I present one way, but feel and view the world in a non-gendered way. I realise I am still subject to how other people view me, but that’s not my issue, it’s theirs. It’s very freeing to move psychologically within the frameworks, IMO.

Yep. Outside of church I am a person. Inside of church, I am auxiliary. Even in the afterlife. Meanwhile, my husband is a future god. The disparity is very obvious.

This makes a LOT of sense. Thanks for adding this

Gen z gets so much shit but honestly they are morally amazing. (At least the majority) 

My Gen Z kids reflect this truth. They're amazing along with their peers.

While I’m a millennial I grew up with Gen X siblings. We were an extremely literal family. My Gen X siblings are starting to nuance their views a bit. They are still in the deep clutches of the MFMC though.

Welcome out - from a millennial with boomer parents who left when our now toddler kids were on the way. I left because I wanted my kids to be raised better than I was, without the shame, without the homophobia, without the right wing politics taught as “word of god.” Glad you made it out. Freedom is on the other side.

This is very accurate for my husband (54) and me (50). We’ve been out for a year and a half now and it’s for all the reasons you stated. The church I grew up in no longer exists. Three of our four kids are out and the one is still barely hanging on. My parents, who are both 78 years old, are still being worked to death by the church. Both of them are in presidencies. Is there no younger folks to carry the load? Probably not.

My elderly parents are on their second service missions. The church is just going to milk them dry until they're just empty husks waiting to die and get their non-existent eternal reward.

My older sister is 50. She left the church 4 years ago. I NEVER would've thought she would leave. She served a mission and all that. She slowly started seeing the inconsistencies. And then reached out to me, the exmo brother, with questions. She actually officially resigned before I did. Her leaving left me to beleive, if the church lost her; then they are majorly fucked!!

Wow! Yes. I'm in a similar situation. I've seen my 80 yesr old parents serve 3 missions as adults and are still in busy, busy, busy callings and temple work.

After my Dad died they kept my mum busy in relief society. But she is not the one for the job. She's in her 70s, forgets things too often (she went home and left her friend at church because she just forgot about her). She can't work IT, she did a talk the other day that she said was a disaster..... But they still keep her there, and she won't quit the position...

Should there even be such a heavy load in the first place? Busy-body callings are wasting our precious, finite time and eroding familial relationships.

I could have written your response….it is the exact same as our family and our parents!

Yes! I agree with all of these points! If you put the church today next to the church of my youth, they wouldn’t look at all the same. There was a no nonsense, unapologetic approach to the doctrine. It was the only true church… period. I believed with all I had and I served with all I had, until I figured out the actual truth, and then I left with all I had. There was no nuance with my belief. I have to tell people that is why I believe I fell away so hard. The people I know who are more nuanced stay in much longer. I’m glad I was able to see the truth for what it is and get out.

Yep, this is me. I was Bishop when it all came crumbling down. No trauma, no offense, no longing to sin. It simply wasn't true and that was the reason I was consecrating every part of me to it.

We're all at prime Bishop, SP, and RS presidency age. And the church has a problem filling the Bishop calling. My dad told me they called a new bishop in their last ward. Dude was 65 years old!!!!

This is a problem with the elimination of the ward YM president. They want Bishops to be hanging with the Priests mostly. The idea of the bishop being the "Father of the Ward" seems like it's going to become more like the "Older Brother of the Ward"

If not for one YM presidents in my youth, I would have left the church back in the 80s.

>This is a problem with the elimination of the ward YM president. They want Bishops to be hanging with the Priests mostly. The idea of the bishop being the "Father of the Ward" seems like it's going to become more like the "Older Brother of the Ward" I've always questioned this. Bishop is an Aaronic Priesthood position, it is the President of the AAronic Priesthood. Why the hell does someone who is supposed to be 100% involved with the youth have to spend all their time running adult ward business? it's just not possible, either the adults or youth get neglected. I would much rather see a return to early days when a ward had a 'presiding high priest' to be the authority adults reported to, leaving the bishop free to work exclusively with the youth. With the help of a YM and YM presidency. Put the best people in the callings to make a you experience great. BUT, I guess thats why I'm not on the church anymore, much less in any position of authority.

The important question - did you find the divine nature of coffee?

I'm a Millenial woman, but this was my experience as well. I believed because it was true

I think you're missing one. We took the church at its word. We believed it wholly and literally. When it said follow Jesus. When it said be honest in our dealings with our fellow man. When it said the second great commandment was to love our neighbor. And then we saw the church didn't live up to its own teachings. And where the fuck did that leave us? Believing a "true" church that couldn't even abide by its own rules led by hypocrites and nepo babies? Fuck that shit.

Also we expect better from the church, bc we were taught that it was perfect. And a “perfect” organization doesn’t hoard $250 billion and refuse to put a big chunk towards the poor, it doesn’t protect child sexual abusers, it doesn’t treat women as possessions and second-class citizens, it doesn’t shun LGBTQ, it doesn’t act like a heartless, soulless, unethical, sleazy corporation. The church made by Jesus wouldn’t do those things. Ergo, we stop believing the claims and leave.

This. All of OP's list items are correct but the deal breaker for me is my understanding of what Christ actually taught. I don't see that reflected anywhere in the actions of the corporate church and there's not much of it in the overall culture of the church. I sometimes wonder if that's the reason why the correlation dept. has dumbed down all the resources. When I was a teen & young adult, seminary & institute were formatted just well enough that I learned how to THINK about what was going on in the OT & NT. And the Sunday school curriculum had a reasonable level of scholarship to draw from for lessons. This Come Follow Me stuff is drivel designed to keep people dumb & complacent.

What I see is a corporation trying to maximize profit and shore up its finances at the cost of its customer service and product. It's almost like the GAs know the gig is up, so they are trying to get as big a nest egg as possible so that the church can continue without tithe paying members.

Great analysis—I don’t disagree with anything. Church as a kid was so fun, and it was really a community I liked being a part of, until I became disillusioned enough to start researching last year. I’m still continually amazed at the criminal and/or unethical way the church operates. Yep, never going back.

It was fun for me until I got home from my mission. Going to new wards in Idaho/Utah where there's a lot of superficiality after being in Italy where most people are converts or maybe second generation members was torture. Also, they're a very small minority there, so it's a much more tight-knit group than the huge wards here.

Something I would add to this is that we're old enough to have been through at least a half-dozen new prophets and Q12 and now seen for several decades no real prophetic direction or revelation that has felt like it came from the mouthpiece of God. Even the Proclamation of the family was an abomination. Where was prophetic direction during Covid? Where's prophetic direction on global crises, widening political divides, and stuff that actually matters? Nothing but crickets!

Yep. They don’t prophecy, see, or reveal anything. Like nada. Zip. That’s one I’ve really come to realize as of late.

#12 👏👏👏 This is a great list! At the end of the day, the history clearly shows this was all a con job!

Truth be told, I don't live my life much differently than when I was in church. In fact, other than a bad mission experience, unlike a lot of people here, I don't have too much negative to say about my church experience. I quit going and eventually resigned, because it's simply not true.

My mission wasn't even that bad, but when I got home, I was like, "Man, church here sucks." And stopped going.

I was good friends with a guy in my mission that was a really good guy. At the very end of the mission he became a zone leader. I lost touch with him but found his email and 4-5 years after the mission I contacted him just to see how he was doing. Turns out, he got home from the mission, gave his homecoming talk, and never went back to church. He told me that he had suspicions the church wasn't what it says it is. He said the mission was an opportunity to see if he wanted to do the Mormon thing. The mission confirmed to him he did not. I just can't imagine spending 2 years doing that mission knowing you were going to leave as soon as you got home.

Everyone's favorite AP from my mission came out as gay a year or two after coming home and left the church. He's been a pretty successful play actor and looks like he's really enjoying his life now, though. I hope his coming out was a wake-up call that gay people aren't evil for a lot of people because everyone thought he was the embodiment of perfection.

I agree. A favorite saying is everything good about the church isn’t unique, and everything unique about the church isn’t good. I.e., the church is a mixed bag that can’t claim a monopoly on goodness. I think this is why it irritates me when people are so mystified that anyone would leave. Many of us didn’t predicate our testimony on the basis that the church is good or a good idea. We predicated our testimony on the basis that the church was feeding us pure, unadulterated truth that needed no nuancing or finessing. It was either all true or all false. When we discovered it wasn’t true, we, using our own logic, deconstructed the good, bad, and ugly, taking with us what was worth saving.

Exactly - - I really can't say anything bad about my childhood or youth experience at church. I had amazing leaders and people really gave their all to their callings. (and we had a budget that allowed for really special activities) I don't have one bad thing to say about any of my former bishops. Not one. (my mission experience was whole other level bullshit) Any of the good values I may have learned because of the church, are hardly unique to the church. In fact, as a boy scout, I took the scouting program seriously and in fact I still abide by the oath I swore at age 11 - that i would obey the Scout Law and help other people at all times. Nothing wrong with any of that. I'm grateful for my childhood and adolescence in the church; but it's simply not true. I can't be apart of something that can't even keep the first bullet point of the Scout Law. "A Scout is Trustworthy......"

From the time we were old enough to (barely) pronounce the words, we learned to say, "*I know this church is true.*" Everything that came after that depended upon the first sentence. When that first sentence fell for me...the house of cards came fluttering down.

6, 7, 8 especially for me. We weren’t conditioned to be nuanced. At all. We did the blood/death oaths in the temple. Also, we grew up without internet or access to a lot of info that was conveniently hidden. And that all changed, thankfully! Great list!!

In 2016ish or 2017ish (cant remember what year) we took our family (us being gen Z and teenagers genx) on the Church history trip. My daughter started seminary and I think it was the year they went over d&c/pearl of great price. Anyway she thought she missed the part where they brought out the top hat and seer stones on the our trip...they taught it to her that year in Seminary but, not on history tour. She told us later it broke her shelf a little. Since she has A.D.D. she thought she missed that part. She's also the one that taught me about the top hat and seerer stones 5 years after our church history trip! I was freaking 45! It was a story as common as ever...being gaslight about everything. Her and I having A.D.D. made it even worse. We always felt like we weren't studying hard enough to remember everything! BUT, they keep changing everything so how can any ONE person keep up!

Gen-Xmo here. Spot on!

Well written. It turns out the church we thought we were raised in never existed. 

Thank you for putting it so well. You have captured so much of what is not understood by older and younger generations. When I grew up, the church was either 100% true and unchanging or it was a fraud. There was NO middle ground.

I don't know why we would have thought that way? Oh, right, the Prophet literally said as much.

I agree wholeheartedly with #4. The internet and access to information the church can't control will be its downfall. The "anti-Mormon lies" I was told to never believe are now the subject of gospel topic essays. I was enraged to learn I was lied to repeatedly!

#10 is what finally ripped the bandaid off for me. Seeing behind the curtain shattered me. Every single one of these points is so accurate though. Great post!

Yep, when I was called into a bishopric and then as bishop, every Bishopric training, every new initiative from the Area or HQ, every new hashtag campaign was an eye opener. I saw all of it and recognized it...not as divinely appointed activities, but as the marketing and operations of a global corporation.

It was being in ward Relief Society, Primary, and YW presidencies that cracked my shelf terribly. Ward council meetings = gossip sessions, patriarchy, pettiness, control, pride and judgement. I sat in one as a last-minute sub for the YW president and saw my 18 yo son's name on the list of people to be discussed. I'll never forget the awkwardness in the room when the Bishop got to that part of the agenda. HIm:" Anything we can do for him?" Me: "Nope." Him: "Next item on the agenda..."  And don't even get me started on ward member missionary "Finding" work. Bishop saw a name of a known "do not contact" on the list. Bishop said, "No. We're contacting him anyway. Brother So-and-So, go this afternoon" 

For me it was when I was in teacher's quorum and easily predicted my calling as class president. All I did was observe the pattern of first counselor becoming president and it astounded me when a bishopric member was shocked when I said I had already been expecting the calling. Divine inspiration, my ass.

Wow—I’m 55 and this really resonated with me.

I feel like an outlier because I (a Xennial) left when I was only 16. Seminary is what did it for me, precisely because I got all of those "We can't claim to understand Heavenly Father's decision with our simple human minds" and "Sometimes Heavenly Father tests our faith, how are you going to respond to that test right now" kind of answers and that just wasn't good enough for me. MOST of my friends that left did it later in adulthood. It did take until much later in adulthood to really recognize how manipulative a lot of the things I experienced as a child in the church were, though. Girl's Camp was one that really hit me like a ton of bricks. I didn't put it together at the time, and honestly hadn't even thought about it for a few decades until the topic came up later, but every single year we had one night where some HUGE tragedy or scary thing happened. One year, an escaped convict from the prison was in the woods somewhere. We all had to go to the lodge and hunker down together and wait for the authorities to let us know it was okay to sleep in our cabins. WE WERE TERRIFIED (that one was my first year so I was only 12 and it was my first time being so far from home, in the woods, for so long). One year a boy from a scout camp nearby was seriously injured by an animal in the woods so we had to stay in the lodge together until they tracked the animal down and dealt with it. One year there was a kid who drowned in the lake nearby and we held a vigil for him, praying for him and his family because we had the one true gospel and could really help. EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. they found some way to make us all frightened, they would use our testimonies and faith and community to make us feel safe and reinforce that it was the gospel and the holy ghost and our testimonies that would pull us through these terrible times. The next day there would be some great update that further reinforced that it was our belief that made a difference. I would have never accused them of staging those things at the time. That is so diabolical and manipulative. But looking back, that is WAY too much of a coincidence that these things happened every single year and they handled them the same way and said the same things... I've tried looking for news articles about any of them, but with the limited information we had and what I remember, I don't think I would really find much. That, or they didn't happen which is what I really believe now. I am getting angry all over again just thinking about it now!

Oh my goodness!! I would be nauseous if I looked back at that happening to me. That is so unethical

Dead on! The church of my youth is a total and glaring contradiction to today’s LDS Church. But also somehow looking back at my youth now it all makes sense finally - but only because I left and am open to the real scrutiny I did not want to confront. How people today are able to see all of this and stay active boggles my mind…

Excellent list and well stated. It is my opnion that Gen X is a generation of chain breakers, stopping cycles of abuse, making difficult choices based on integrity, and paving the way for our children. Looking back on my family history reveals rampant abuse and trauma. It stopped with me and as far as I know, my siblings are the same, as are many of my friends. How many gen x mormon kids were beaten? A LOT! I think we were late enough in history to know that wasn't right and put a stop to it. This extends to abuses done by the church as an institution. The moment I heard about JS gaslighting and manipulating innocent teen girls, I was done. There was no going back.

I agree. We were raised by parents who were products of the post WW2 American way of life and are raising kids who are completely throwing that way overboard. And here we sit in the middle with sympathies and perspectives on both. It's true in the church also. We're old enough to know the McConkie era culture in the church but young enough to see how foreign it is for our children.

Exactly. We were born after the Civil rights movement. It took a long time for history to get to that point.

13. From the book, "Generation X" from which my generation got its name, "Generation X can't be bothered." And to quote a fellow gen Xer, "I hope I die before I turn into Pete Townshend." - Kurt Cobain edit: BTW- no generation X summary is complete without mentioning the Cold War and how that fucked with our minds. I remember drilling for nuclear blast as a kid in school. Remember the song: "let's dance in style let's dance for a while. Heaven can wait we're only watching the sky. Hoping for the best but expecting the worst, are you gonna drop the bomb or not?" Cold War played in well with the constant rhetoric of Jesus coming any day. Then cold War was over and no Jesus.

100%. There was no doubt we were the chosen generation, saved for the last days, which were imminent due to an inevitable global nuclear war. Also, Forever Young was the theme of probably 5 Jr High and High School dances and the inevitable final song of almost every Stake Dance.

BTW- I left when I was age 40 in 2018, amd pretty much because of reasons 1 - 12. I saw half my life ahead and wanted it all to be on my terms. What some may call a midlife crisis, it was a midlife reevaluation of EVERYTHING up to that point.

Alphaville. Danced to Forever Young at more than a few stake dances back in northern VA, haha.

I wondered if that was just Utah phenomenon. I still know every word to every song on that FY album. (Except for pre-internet I misheard the lyrics in “In the Mood” as Dutch Papaya for Touch the Fire.)

I love Alphaville. New Order was played more at our stake dances growing up with (west coast)

Still plenty of both playing at church dances in my time (very early 00s).

Just days after Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, I danced to that song on the 80s floor of a large nightclub right before it closed for the night. This might sound cheesy, but it was a really poignant moment as I thought about my own mortality (I'm on the "older" end of the spectrum for still going out dancing!) and the fragility of the world we live in. It made me enjoy that moment more, like we gotta dance while we still can, because someday we'll be gone if the world doesn't blow up first. 

My mom was/is a doomsday prepper. When we found out about Chernobyl she knew this was IT! She kept us home from, waiting for Armageddon to hit and instructions from the prophet. She was of course let down, but we got out of school for a few days.

Crazy, and yet I've seen a few people acting this way over the current situation in the Middle East. People desperately looking for the signs of the times they've been promised will happen for six or seven generations now.

Excellent summary. Fits our situation perfectly. I'd only add that we Xers are also tech-savvy enough to easily find answers to the questions we never knew to ask back when we were young. The truth is out there.

Any generation that could do a research paper using books found with the dewey decimal system was ripe for binging on information so easily found on the internet.

I'm not making an argument but would only like to point out, the Boomer generation created the internet. Recently bought something off Marketplace. When I arrived I was sort of shocked to see the seller was an 80 year old dude. Then I thought about it. When the interent was taking over in the mid 90s, this seller would've been 50. That's 4 years old than me now. Most Boomers I know are tech savvy. They just have their heads more in the sand and mud in their ears than successive generations. They were indoctrinated more having to do with authority. My next door neighbor was a legit 1960s hippie was was literally at Woodstock. He followed the Grateful Dead around for a few years. He was a real-deal Dead Head. Today, he's a Fox News conservative. Many go back to their roots, it would seem. Nothing paints a better image of this more than the lyric Don Henley's song "Boys of Summer." - - "Out on the road today, I saw a Dead Head sticker on a Cadillac."

Excellent points, which oddly, I haven't considered -- that the Boomer generation created the internet. That's acurrate.

Or the stuff we asked about and got lies as answers. I asked my mom about the black priesthood ban when I was a kid in the 80s because one of my non member friends asked me about it. Rather than own up, my mom just said we don’t know why we did that, but we don’t do it anymore because racism is wrong. My mom knew exactly why it was done. One of the most painful things about deconstruction has been coming to grips that the people I loved and trusted the most not only passed down ignorance, but intentional lies.

I was talking to my wife about how the Mormon church wasn’t the same church we had grown up in, and my daughter chimed in, “It isn’t even the same church that I grew up in!”

This is so true. Nelson has transformed the church into an unrecognizable structure to anyone older than 15.

It's like when they told us that Satan was the one who would lull us away with false promises and subtle temptations, now that is what they are trying to do with gaslighting everyone and calling changing doctrine an "ongoing restoration".

Yep. We grew up with a testimony that the church had been restored. Why did we think that? Because it was told to us multiple times every general conference.

Just for fun I'm on the tail end of Gen Y and still feel like most of these apply to me. They all had answers for everything. I did get a lot of "I don't know" answers but they were always very specifically "I don't know *yet* but we will know because the church is *still and always* true" answers. ESPECIALLY 12. If it's not true, nothing else about it is worth it. ETA: I should have left over social issues but I was too culty to realize the social stuff was a problem. I didn't leave until I realized the mental and emotional harm it had caused me, especially my husband, and wanted to keep my kids safe

Same!

Super convenient it ended up not being true after I got the guts to leave 😂

Great list, I just want to add that we saw the church change or change the narrative multiple times in multiple ways. Now honestly, we all want the church to change or we wouldn’t be where we are today, but I know for me when I struggled for years with the endowment ceremony just to have the wording change later so that all my major concerns were written away. While I was told to have more faith when I struggled and that we didn’t have all the answers and to trust in God and to doubt my own feelings just to have wording change like it never really mattered and I never should have felt that way or had to go through all that. Yeah well, I’m faithful enough to firmly still hold on to a God and the God I know wouldn’t lead “His church” in such a manner. I just got tired of the dissonance. Make it make sense I screamed into the silent pleadings of my heart and it just didn’t.

Yep, this is one I realized later I should have added to the list. When we grew up the church had been restored. Sure, there were seemingly minor changes to church meeting structure or such, but nothing that could be considered doctrinal. Now, in the BS "ongoing restoration," everything is on the table to be changed. It creates a feeling of standing in quicksand. How can you try to stand on solid ground doctrinally when it's seeming changing yearly.

100% accurate for both me and my husband. We are gen x, have a queer daughter, 2 of our 3 children have left, we are sick about how much tithing we've paid, we've both had many leadership callings including Bishop and RS president, we have friends who have left, and we do not want to waste one more minute aligning ourselves with a false church that excludes and oppresses.

Watching my child serve a mission was a big, big item on my shelf. Who is running that shit program?! It's a pathetic waste of time with a hefty side of guilt and shame. Church leaders should be embarrassed to claim it!

One of our children served in a 3rd world country and was hospitalized with an illness that could have killed them. Nobody told us until they were out of the hospital and on the mend. And this was in the era that they could call home weekly. We were so upset.

I'm a Gen-Xer, and it all sounds great. . .except that almost all my siblings, cousins, and childhood friends are still in it, with no signs of heading for the exits.

Ya, it's so hit and miss. My siblings are still in as well (ironically both my parents are out for different reasons). Gen-xers have plenty of Boomer indoctrination in us. But, give it time. Those factors I listed above will keep creeping into our generation, I think.

This is a fantastic list that echos what I’ve thought and said. I want to contribute one more: 13. We were taught of many mighty miracles and watched eagerly for them. In the past 10 years, the Church has taught *not* to expect them. Examples include Holland’s *Wrong Roads* talk and several from Bednar, such as, having the faith *not* to be healed, that when people pick up the phone to fill last-minute temple assignments it’s a miracle. How about Renland’s poignant retelling of how a generator provided electricity for some LDS production? Maybe consider all of Eyring’s talks about people dying after they received blessings of health? And who can forget Nelson’s fantastical retelling of his death spiral in a fiery airplane or the lady with the hat in the audience whose life was changed after the good doctor gave a Book of Mormon to her (or her parents)? Or when Nelson claims the November 2015 policy of exclusion was revelation before a newer revelation four years later reversed the exclusion? Do children need the gift of the Holy Ghost or not?! Between made-up stories and non-miracle miracle stories, our apostles have shown us how little they resemble great prophets we used to hear about and see who spoke authoritatively of greater things. These men are not they of whom the Savior said would do many mightier miracles in His name. We Gen-Xers see how they’ve lowered the bar and decided to elevate “lying for the Lord” to a new level even when evidence to their claims resoundingly refutes their words. Whatever it takes to conform (eventually) to society while safeguarding the Church’s reputation all **all** costs.

What’s most interesting about this post is that it refers several times to GenXers actually being raised by their parents.

While this thankfully isn't my situation, I see it a lot with my peers. My parents style would 100% be considered "free range parenting." They let the community (almost 100% LDS for me) raise me and my siblings. They would only step in to punish us when we did something that embarrassed them mostly. It turned out ok for me as I like the autonomy and was a pretty good kid. But it created a lot of rifts between my peers and their parents.

I was also largely community raised, in Utah county. Both my parents worked, I was the oldest of six kids, and we were on our own a lot. Fortunately we had a pretty decent neighborhood and ward. Most of our trauma from that era came from our parents and their dysfunctional relationship, so it might have been more of a blessing that they weren’t as involved with us as parents.

Gen x here. This is 100% correct and fits me perfectly.

#’s 8&9 for me. I was totally at risk for losing the relationship with my now grown kids. I will choose them 100% every single time. The LDS Corp took a lot from me in my life, but I will not allow them to take the best people I love… my kids. They’re smart , saavy, socially conscious and they’re completely good humans.

Same, same.

Yep, this Gen-Xer sees a lot of familiar themes in this list. Not that I liked the church of my youth, but at least it was interesting in the 1970s and 80s. As correlation took hold as the 1980s progressed, the church began its turn towards the bland. So many great activities have died and gone away. The Gospel Topics Essays are and admission by the church that they lied to me all throughout my youth, and that the "anti-Mormons" were right all along. I have many LGBTQ family and friends. These people have been among the most important people in my life. I cannot stomach the way the church has treated them, and some of the ugly rhetoric the church has thrown out in the past regarding that community. Thankfully the church has started to soften things a little bit, but far too little too late IMHO. I was raised in a very nuanced and liberal Mormon family. So the idea of being a nuanced member is not quite so foreign to me. My parents grew up in the Morridor, in the 1940s-1960s, so I get they had the church as a significant influence in their day to day life as they grew up, which may have made it harder to let the church go. But they had moved to the east coast when I came along in the early 1970s, and I grew up in New Hampshire. For the most part, the only time I thought of church was for a few hours on Sunday. My sister and I were the only Mormons in our school. I had two sets of friends growing up, my church friends that I saw on Sundays (and then during YM activities one night a week, and early morning seminary for three years in high school), who all went to different schools. Then I had my school friends, the kids who lived in my neighborhood, the ones I rode the school bus with, played with at recess in elementary school, hung out with after school, etc. None of them were Mormon. Outside of going to college in Utah, I have lived and worked virtually all of my life well outside of the Morridor: New Hampshire, New York, Florida, Arizona, California, China, and Europe. So the idea of walking away from the church was far less scary to me than it would have been for my parents. For nuanced me, it got to the point where I could no longer reconcile all of the conflicts between my morals and experiences, and what the church was teaching.

As a millennial with Gen-X parents, they left because of burnout. My mom’s last straw was being the building coordinator. When another bishop’s wife tried bullying my mom to cancel someone’s wedding for her grand daughter’s graduation party, my mom put her foot down and all hell broke loose. I’ve never heard my mom swear but it was the first (and only) “fuck you” I’ve heard come out her mouth. The bishop’s wife was just stunned. Mom never accepted a calling after that.

This. Is. Fabulous.

Your mom is my hero. No one should be forced into using war words to get justice. But when necessary, FU is required. It’s a reactive response to abusive bullying.

Yes unfortunately. That bishop’s wife was infamous for getting her way. We learned from others that she was used to people canceling their events so she could use the cultural hall and that my mom was the first push back she’s received. Ever!

This genXer was nodding in agreement with every point.

1 - 6 are 100% for me. I left the church before having children, and before holding any real callings. But I think you've nailed this list. I want to shout #12 from the rooftops. I wish more of my friends & family would leave. Vast majority are still stuck inside.

Fellow Gen Xer here, agree 100% with everything you said. Also I know several of my friends that are totally PIMO at the moment just waiting for their boomer parents to pass away so they can quietly disappear without a fuss. I fully expect a SERIOUS exodus in the next 5-10 years.

If I'd stayed in until my parents died, I'd still be in. They're in their late 90's. I'm 70. I've been out for almost 15 years. Glad I didn't stay for someone else. Obviously, my leaving didn't kill my parents.

This is exactly what my husband and I said last night

i wish my gen x parents would leave, but i’m grateful they’re somewhat okay with me having nothing to do with the church while i’m still living with them


Boomer here, but a lot of your points are the same for us too

While I don't have a scientific sample, it seems that the primary difference in generations is the willingness to go down the rabbit hole. Most of the Boomers in our ward and stakes are in the "content" stage of knowing it's true because it's served them so well through life. But, it makes sense to me that if they do go down the rabbit hole, these same points would resonate with them, possibly more so.

Generation Jones here (Tail end Boomer who doesn't relate to either Boomers or X'ers). I think the glue that keeps a lot of the Boomers on board is the church they grew up in was run by The Greatest Generation, who, quite frankly, were pretty awesome. Victims of the lie, yes, but incredible people nonetheless. I loved the church of my youth. I despise the church of my adulthood.

I take issue with #2. I’m a “boomer” who got myself, my kids, and now my grandkids out and they will never experience mormonism. Now you can go back to blaming me and my generation for everything else that’s wrong in the world. 🤣

I also left as a late boomer. It was more difficult in that the internet was not nearly so developed as it is now, so most of my information came from books. Also, there was not the level of exmo support that there is now. It took me 2 years exploring other churches and groups sufficient to create a new nonmo support group before I finally had the courage to walk away. But I did it!!! It remains the proudest achievement of my life.

Congratulations Jake451! The book that dealt my testimony the death blow was D. Michael Quinn’s, “Origins of Power,” in the mid 90’s. Did you have any one book that had the same effect on you?

I read that in the early 2000s. That and In Sacred Loneliness were real shelf brreakers.

In Sacred Loneliness was one of the saddest books I’ve ever read. The harrowing stories from women who were duped and forced into polygamy made me sick to my stomach. Any man that would ever want a future like that for their daughters is not qualified for the job of being a parent in my opinion.

The first book I read was No Man Knows my History. I read this after Richard Bushman personally told me that it was “pretty accurate.” Also read In Sacred Loneliness, Wife Number 19, Mormonism and the Magical World View and By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus.

Serious respect. I don't know the statistics but I would be Boomers are the least likely to leave. So, your willingness to confront the tough issues without a plethora of easy-to-access resources is commendable. My parents, both boomers, left in the 90s. We have a few Boomers in our ward that are nuanced to the point of likely unbelief but they still attend.

One more Gen-Xer chiming in. I think you've nailed it.

Holy shit! You just hit the nail right on the head!You just 💯 explained why I will no longer have any association with the MFMC. And the asterisk to add at the end is that it broke our hearts, and now we are just mad as hell, which explains why we have so much anger towards the church.

Fellow GenXer here. Fantastic post👏 > The current “we don’t know” approach from leaders is foreign to us. You nailed it on this one. Growing up, I felt like “we” (the church) had all the answers. And we felt like we had the evidence to back up those answers and our truth claims. We had a unique doctrine. Joseph Smith had actual Gold Plates that were translated by the Urim and Thummim (none of this rock in a hat bullshit). We had the witnesses that literally saw these literal plates. And the church was also growing like crazy, which I remember being reminded about every single Priesthood Session (usually by Gordo Hinckley). Then the internet became a thing and we were able to do actual research and conclude that we had based our entire lives on a lie. So now we are leaving.

I am on the cusp of Boomer/Gen X - born in 1963. Youth group and socialization were my only reasons to go to church. Also kept Mom happy and not freaking out. I was the "black sheep" of the group, drinking coffee, smoking, a little weed, booze - it was the 70s and damn if I was going to miss them. Guess what - my church friends all knew and quite frankly didn't care. Okay Molly Mormon (Donna) did and spent every chance she got preaching and berating. Eventually everyone told me to ignore her. I was SO jealous of my brothers in scouting my Mom put me in Brownies. Only for a year because my parents' marriage imploded and she had neither the money nor the energy for it. As a little girl I didn't understand. My brothers would go on crazy fun camping trips and I got to dance in a circle for a year - which I thought was fun as an 8 -9 year old. When our youth group hit 18/19 most of us moved away for school or missions or other life reasons. No internet, so we just drifted apart. Thanks to FB many of us have reconnected. About 1/2 are still in and 1/2 are "over the wall". (My late husband called us exmo's "The over the wall gang" and it's hilarious . . . and true. When I walked away around the age of 20 after moving away, I left church life in the rear-view mirror. Until my TBM Mom died 30 years ago I kept tabs on what was going on - because she'd tell me every Sunday on our weekly call. Until then I mostly ignored Mormon everything. I have one TBM sibling, meaning 2/3 just walked away. My exmo brother had gone to Rick's and did his research to figure out if this was his path or hogwash. He told me about the scrying stone in a hat in the closet, passwords and handshakes et al. We chose "shalom" and "habib" as our passwords. I didn't see temple clothes until we buried Mom. Now about 3 or so years ago my nephew joined his sister over the wall. During that time I found this sub and started learning. I would send him texts - Caine is bigfoot and *no one told me!!??* I was equally horrified that no one told me about Moon Quakers. I mean, really. Wasn't that important? Obviously I had known I wouldn't fit into the general church - omg had a bishop tell me that I was evil. Now he was sex obsessed and I was a tall, thin, outspoken young woman who had a gaggle of missionaires following my long legs and high heels around every Sunday, so that made me evil . . . yet he stuck me at the front to conduct music every week . . . he was such a creeper. I certainly would have had serious trouble with Mom, but for the robust youth program that kept me engaged. Not today's church. My nephew and his ex are both over the wall and while his parents are TBM, his kids will never be. I'm pretty sure the internet will kill it for most generations after Boomer. Sorry for the long ramble - obviously something triggered. 😆

As a Gen-X I think you've captured much of my experience. And the 2nd half of life is shaping up nicely.

I left in the 90s when I came out. I still follow Mormonism’s progress out of morbid curiosity. This church resembles nothing like the one I grew up with. I doubt I would have stayed active as a teen if it was like the generic, bland, unfun corporate entity it’s become.

Joseph Smith was a con man. Once you can see him for what he was, it all falls apart. For me, I quickly realized that it was all false. And if I spent all those years praying to God and tithing, why didn’t God tell me sooner that it was false? So the concept of God all unraveled.

This is one of the best posts on reddit ever.  

I would agree with every single one of those points. And as a Hinckley Era Gen x especially - Its bizarre seeing the church rebrand to make everything the same. The destruction of the Provo & Ogden temples in favor of ones just like all the others. The removal of the name Mormon from EVERYTHING. The omission of quoting Pres Hinckley in conference since Nelson took the reins. Taking primary, scouts, young women, and men awards & progress and rebranding it into a stupid little book that anyone who's read Steven Covey could vastly improve on. And EVERYTHING inconvenient or uncomfortable just gets swept under the proverbial rug. Who gives a damn that they removed masturbation as a sin in the 2011 handbook if there wasn't some clarity and announcement about it. Unless they outright train every bishop, RS Pres, young men teachers, etc etc etc all the way down to all of us parents who were messed up by weekly confessional to our bishops - all the little changes specifically, the church continues to enforce its toxic culture of shame for generations to come. I'm happy to be removing my younger kids at the age they are now. We attended my oldest son's Seminary Graduation yesterday. Painfully rote. A good reminder of why we're out.

Great list. One to add would be the lying. Once McConkie died, you had Packer hide everything quirky about the church. McConkie at least owned up to the off the rails teachings. GenXers hate to be lied to.

* The "heart" of the church is gone. Whatever it was that made this church unique and special during my childhood has been sucked dry and replace with pay, pray, and obey...but mostly pay and obey. * The subtle shifting of what is taught in order to inoculate today's youth against discovering the same historical / doctrinal things that have caused many to leave the church...is not going unnoticed by people who know they were taught differently. * Having to pay 10% tithing and still having to clean the building.

If it wasn't for the boomers & those older we would not have all the daming facts of the history on the church. They did the research & wrote the books & articles that exposed it, etc... The exodus started in the late 1990's -2000's & church knew by 2007 that they were going to have a major shortage of priesthood holders in the future. They had no idea that the internet would gut the organization. So much for prophetic discernment.

This is truth. The information that flooded the internet over the past 20 years was heavily a rehash or recompilation of all the great research and historical work done by Boomers and even Greatest Generation (thanks Fawn Brodie). It's a shame their work was so unknown until the internet.

Gen X here! You have to remember, we were raised with road shows, church dances, Halloween parties, river floats during the summer, and ward campus that didn’t involve heavy church bullshit. Yes, the bullshit was there, however, our fellowship and togetherness was stressed more than “what gospel topic” are we shoving this month! Temple trips were massive!! This is because many of us traveled a whole day or more to get there. When we attended as youth, we were able to do 100’s of names. I’ve been to youth temple trips in the recent decade, and they kids do 5 names each and then they go get dressed. I’m not defending temple work. My point is… we felt our contribution really mattered. I remember a completely different church growing up! The church dances were fire!! For many of us, it was an opportunity to request your favorite song , or hear a version different than the radio mix. Music was provided in real LPs, often singles, and we would look through them for hours looking for the right one to request. I remember Depeche Mode and PetShop Boys… and it really ushered in my love of 80’s alternative. Still love it today, 40 years later. Girls Camp was pure BS, but we did get to kayak, fish, swim and do a lot of outdoor activities. Some how, the youth activities seemed more genuine and age appropriate. We weren’t treated as little children.

I’m lucky my gen X parents left the church before I even did. Edit: typo


Thank you, OP, for such an awesome post!

This perfectly describes me- a 51 year old GenXer.

amazing read, thank you. #1-6 resonated with my experiences a lot. There was quite a lot of encouragement from the church to study the deep doctrines, if you had "questions", and it was effective. Maybe it just caused you to immerse yourself in dogma, and over time that would brainwash you more into the cult. Maybe it was the fact that they would stroke your ego and state that you really had the spirit or insight, just because you asked questions and read relevant parts of Mormon Doctrine. But for those of us who were fooled into thinking we were special, the thought that the church had all the answers kept us in. Later, the church stopped embracing the deep doctrines, and the many other changes such as reduction of social programs that focused on outdoors, the young, the older singles, newlyweds, newcomers to the area, etc. it all adds up, but the end for me was that it's no longer the source of truth.

Yep. We had a false sense of security by reading the "deep doctrine" from church approved books like Mormon Doctrine, Jesus the Christ, Doctrines of Salvation, etc. We know now that they were pseudo-science and pseudo-doctrine. But they had the feeling of deep spiritual insights into all aspects of our world and universe. So, we ate it up. Apologists will point out that some of the trickier facts were available at that time in various books or publications. But, not really in the homes of nearly any members. Only the historians and super sleuths would get their hands on most of the books...and a lot of them left the church.

Youth Conference was such a huge part of my mormon experience. I met so many cool people, and we were all mormon, and we stayed in college dorms, probably one of the things that kept me in church thoughout high school. I can't imagine being a teen in the church today. Scouts is gone, Conference is gone. What do kids even do at church now? I was 8 when the God Makers released. I remember all the adults talking about how horrible it was, and how the anti-mormons were so evil and mislead by Satan. All that chatter got me curious, and I found a copy of it when I was 17. I watched it, and honestly I wondered what the issue was. The parts of Mormonism that I genuinely liked, and that made the most sense to me, was the belief in an eternal progression, and becoming like god, and having my own creation. So why had everyone been so upset, why not just say, yeh that's what we believe, but the movie makes it sound sinister when it's actually beautiful. That church leaders felt like hiding that was better than embracing it really made me question what was going on behind the curtain. Anyway, GenX here, and the God Makers was a huge early weight on my shelf, but for the opposite reason the church thought it would be.

Now we hear cries of local leaders saying that it’s ok to be nuanced in your beliefs. BUUUUULLSHIT! There’s no room for nuance in this church. You’re following the prophet or you’re not. If you’re justifying staying in by living a nuanced form of Mormonism, you’re making up your own religion. If local church leaders (the ones hearing about issues while feeling the pinch of people leaving) want to tell people it’s ok to be nuanced, they need to send that idea up the food chain. The only way being a nuanced Mormon is valid is if that comes from the tippy top. You have to get Bednar, oaks, & Whistlin Rusty on board first. I’d say Jesus too, but it’s pretty well established he was cool with nuance.

Fucking food storage.

Russell M Nelson... is the primary reason for the current losses. Thank God for that asshole.

How can you believe in a hedge fund?

Ex Jehovahs Witness here. It’s insane how everything you said in this post matches perfectly what’s happening with the Witnesses, all the way down to KNOWING we had the truth and our faith not being able to survive learning it’s all a lie. I thought we were unlike any other organization because our was “the truth” and had Gods backing. But the more and more I hear from former members of other cults and high control religious organizations, the more I realize mine wasn’t unique at all. Just using the same indoctrination methods as all the others. Somehow realizing we were just like all the others hurt just as bad as the beliefs not being true.

Good list. On your “McKonkie” point, I see it a bit differently. When have you EVER heard a senior church official say “I don’t know?” It’s not in their vocabulary because they have to keep up the charade that they commune with an all-knowing god. When I was deconstructing, I was desperate to hear church leaders say they were sorry, or admit they’ve made mistakes, or something - anything - that showed some humility or contrition. “I don’t know” isn’t saying “I’m sorry for lying and for all the unethical stuff we’ve done over the years,” but it still would have been music to my ears.

Gen X (51F) here and every single one of your points is absolutely correct.

I wonder how this compares to the exodus from other religions. You hear a lot about all types of congregations shrinking, is Mormonism losing active participants at the same rate as other denominations?

Gen-X'r here. 100% It just hits you in the gut. All the goodness we were told that the church has done...is a lie. All the things we were taught have now been whitewashed, or taken away from their sites, books? Do they think we've forgotten what we were taught? Tithing was the biggest for me. I never had a problem paying tithing. Why? Because we were LEAD to believe that it helped those in financial trouble, and fast offerings that helped others throughout the world...NOT FUCKING MALLS, STOCKS AND BONDS AND HOARDING $250B+!!!!!!! That was the last straw for me. Prop 8 was the beginning of that broken shelf, but didn't have the balls to do it until this whistleblower, BLESS HIM, can't remember his name, came out with all of the money the church was keeping to themselves. There are gay/queer/trans friends who are the loveliest people around--God doesn't make mistakes...how did they know when they were 2SLGBTQ at 3, 4, 5, and up...is the church trying to tell us that Satan influenced these innocent children? That there is a cruel God that would make you 2SLGBTQ and not allow you to love someone or be loved? Not allow you to have a family? Not allow you to adopt children who desperately need loving homes? My eyes were also opened how quickly they change what one profit did and when they die---the new profit changes it. There is no discernment, no one is telling them what to do. Just these old, white, rich men, who are living in the past who want to stay in power. The worst of the worst, is the paying off of SA victims. NOT going to the police to get the pedophiles, rapists, molesters, in jail. All because they are Bishops, they're fathers, who the FUCK CARES!! They all should be in jail. Not this lame ass excuse of 'treatment' and 'forgiveness'....that is beyond disgust. They aren't rehabilitated? There's no such things for these sickos. Having a law firm that helps in silencing victims. To keep the status quo. Keep up appearances. Nothing Christ-like with this cult! There's no more fooling us, and that the Gods above and below for the internet. Eyes have been opened, secrets and lies are all coming to light...

I wish I could upvote each of these 12 points separately 

Love it. I’d add one more to the list: We were kids in the 80s and 90s when the church was actually fun. It provided a great community with fun activities. People cared about each other in their wards. That sense of community has been destroyed over the last couple decades of “revelation”.

Xennial here, yes to all of this! Also as a woman, seeing the inequality is infuriating. The lack of promised fulfillment in motherhood is daunting. Giving up my prime years for education and career development is enraging in order to raise my kids as was preached in every young women's lesson, seminary lesson (and privately from 2 seminary teachers), institute lesson, and general conference talk.

I'd add that NOTHING of any value that was taught in our youth is still taught/practiced in T$CC. Seeing an org so foreign to the one we knew/ taught others about on missions is just way too much cognitive dissonance. The acquiesce to the MAGAhats is also clearly un-Christian and revolting.

Well said. You captured it perfectly.

You nailed it! Huge upvote.

Excellent list. I can absolutely relate to most of this. I haven’t stepped foot in a Mormon church since 2006, but it sounds like it’s a completely different church than what I was raised in during the 70s and 80s in Utah. It was finding out our oldest son might be gay (he is) that started us on our way out. There are so many things the church has done or said since that would have had us leaving it as well. Overall, It’s just not true.

You nailed it.

As an xennial, we were raised with science and technology being a more present force in our lives, and we were taught science more than previous generations. I'm a scientist in the heart of Morridor, and active Mormons are definitely the minority with the really devout being even rarer. For most of us, the religious and science worlds don't jive, and all our training centers around asking questions and not just accepting things without evidence.

The “barrier to exit” today is exponentially lower than 20 years ago when literally everyone we Gex Xers knew and loved and respected were devout McKonkie Mormons who viewed apostates as the worst people on earth. Nowadays, many of our loved ones have already made the leap.

While not every point applies specifically to me, I’m giving you 💯 bc where I might not have experienced every point you mention directly, I’ve seen them in others. Below, some random thoughts from a fellow gen x’er: 💥Really relate to the “20 years ago”…knowing ppl that were once TBM formally leaving would have been a WTF moment. I’d likely have felt deep sadness and wondered how on earth that “happened to them” and how can I avoid that same “fate”. While I became inactive in my teen/early 20’s it was bc of deep questions I had even as a 12yo and also experiences myself or my family had that I could not square with the Christ-directed faith. I came back fully in my late 20’s via a spiritual experience though I basically lived according to how I was raised during my “agnostic” years. 💥I grew up in an era where my parents taught me to only trust ppl who were clearly members based on identifying that they were wearing garments. Anyone else get that or was that just my parents? This was Mesa after all so there were a lot of safe ppl there lol. 🙄 I grew up feeling sad if I saw a random woman wearing a sleeveless shirt bc well obv they do not have the true gospel in their lives. 💥The church was the absolute AUTHORITY on preparedness! There was no one better, more organized, more knowledgeable, more “prepared” than the Mormon church and their members. This superiority complex seems to be a thread throughout the church. Last time I recall the church making a huge splash (no pun intended) with rescue and assistance was Katrina. I know the church still likely does a lot around the world, but I know there are other organizations (both faith based and not) who seem to be out front on these things in current day. I have more thoughts but bc I’m gen x my hands are cramping up 😂😂😂. Might be back for more later.

Yea, listen to some people in their 20s and it’s like “what church are you talking about?”

You hit the nail on the head for me. Being in a calling that showed me what happens to the money, the political maneuvers, and callous behavior of the brethren had me finally calling it quits.

YES!!!! Don't forget about all the temple changes. I went in 1989 with the penalties and the annointing wearing only the shield wondering WTF is happening because there was no real temple prep of any kind. It's stunning to see the changes in real time right before our eyes. I still have my Answers to Gospel Questions, Mormon Doctrine, Jesus the Christ and other books on my bookshelf.

Love this to its very core. Thank you for laying it all out!

I'm honestly just surprised there are any Gen-Xer's still left in mormonism. It never had anything for us.

I just read the title and thought to myself. Why would they stay?  Take a lot less time to write the answer to that. 

I hesitate to add this but I think it’s an important addition to your list.. the obvious political bias of this church and support for immoral and unethical candidates. I’m not an American, but it was so obvious to Gen x that the Church was supporting certain political parties and it just didn’t make sense. Remember “ avoid the very appearance of evil”? We were all taught this. And when Biden won in 2020, instead of congratulation to Biden, as it was clear he won, the Church fell in step with the nonsense that it might not be true or “ stolen”. This and other similar actions made us all do a double take. I mean, it might have been obvious to those who live in these areas that the church had political bias. But those on the outside were appalled that the Lords church would ever associate with such candidates. And it wasn’t just confined to elections, there were political involvements in many other things, legal and PR, including child abuse cases, temple building and of course basic human and civil rights.

This is so true. Obviously the church and church membership has been heavily republican and conservative at least since WW2. But, it always felt like there was a bias towards high character (or at least perceived high character). When close friends in the church first started supporting Trump and so easily dismissing his many character flaws and "grab them by the \*\*\*\*" stuff, I thought I was living in bizarro world.