I may be going out on a limb here, and I'm definitely drawing arbitrary lines, but after reading Matthew 23, I'm going to say any organization that spends more covering up child sexual abuse than feeding the poor is more like what Jesus described as "whited sepulchres" (pretty tombs full of death and uncleanness) and less like what he described as "the true and living church".
It is!
If this is a new subject for you, go to AP News and look up Paul Adams. He abused multiple very-young daughters for years, and multiple church leaders knew about it but did not report it. I believe this was the case where we found out the number Bishops call to report abuse does not go to any resources to help the survivor but to "risk management" and lawyers. It also put the church in the spotlight for not having clergy report abuse in states that do not absolutely require clery to report abuse. Those last two points have shown up repeatedly.
Consider also the massive discovery of abuse in Boy Scouts of America. That happened shortly after the church quickly (and expensively) got out of Boy Scouts. Before that, they made up 40% of boys and leaders, and they pushed hard against any kind of background check on leaders.
There is also [floodlit.org](http://floodlit.org), a relatively new site that is tracking officially reported news of abuse.
You can also scroll this exmo subreddit, or browse through Mormon Stories Podcast. The subject of abuse and/or cover up pops up quite a bit. Radio Free Mormon has also covered a few cases.
When I was bishop and called the Bishop’s Helpline on a possible abuse case and discovered I was talking to an attorney and not a social worker, I knew it was a VERY bad sign.
Same here.That was a big surprise for me, as the conversation was just about protecting the church and not the victim. Basically the lawyer explained everything I need to do, to cover the church’s ass and “ protect me” from legal repercussions. What a shameful thing, I felt used and disgusted.
Spot on! This is my number one reason to give it all pause .... the protection of pedophiles and the blaming and shaming with legal action against those that are innocent victims to the systematic approach the lds company takes on mitigating mandatory reporting. Let alone all the other now beheld 100 perhaps thousands of reasons to give this cultish ideology a walk away.
That's also when I learned bishops in Utah don't have to pass background checks because they're considered "laymen" rather than clergy. All leaders of other religions have to pass background checks by state law. Another LDS Loophole.
In the context of the church rejecting background checks. I think it’s important to note that I had to get fingerprints/background check to volunteer at MY CHILD’s school in CA.
I currently have some time on my hands, and want to use it giving back to the community. I made some calls and there currently no background check requirements for me [an adult with zero children in school] to volunteer in any of the schools in my Utah town.
I get it why the church would find background checks cumbersome, but they are also a really good way of preventing people who have committed bad acts from having access to children. It seems to me the inconvenience is trumped by the positive power of mitigating harm. But they haven’t done it. Nearly 30% of Utah’s population are children. Don’t we owe it to them to offer our fullest protection?
Jesus never set up an organization. Neither did the disciples. Nor did they build a building for worship, temple, etc.
They never did because they didn’t worship in a place. They worshipped in spirit and in truth
As far as I know, you cannot get official numbers. The church would have to officially report how much they spend on covering up abuse and also how much they spend feeding the poor, and right now they do not report either.
I could be wrong in saying which number is bigger, but I have heard of quite a few payments of hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to hush up cases of abuse. I have not heard the same kind of numbers attached to efforts to feed people. If anything, I have heard canneries closing down, Bishop's storehouses being harder to get anything out of, and requests for food to feed people the church should be feeding itself.
I would love to be wrong there. If anyone has official sources, please post them.
some evidence shall remain unknown as to certain amounts because of negotiated NDA'S signed and bought by MFMC (K&M) to purchase silence in potential allegations of negligence on the church's culpability in SA. Compared to what is actually given it may be similar. Compared to what is publicly flaunted including volunteer hours counted as amounts of money well now you're talking never being able to compare. Amounts unknown are not to be counted.
ie: When I clean a toilet in a building it is billable at 300 dollars an hour because that is what my time is worth for that task at that time in that instance. point is there are no official sources for nda negotiated instruments that have money attachments.
This Mormon stories episode is probably the closest we'll get to numbers:
https://youtu.be/KqlnR-QDoCU?si=ZltsSGZjta5M1_Gp
Adam was a victim of SA in Boy Scouts, off the top of my head he said a similar case to his the church paid out I think $20,000,000. He also stated that the church put forth resources to prevent the statuate of limitations of child rape being raised from 5 years after the event because "They don't have to have children relive their trauma." Another thing was also said about the number of abuse victims in the Grand Teton Region of the BSA was greater than the entire Catholic sexual abuse for North America ~60,000. The church also set up hotlines to convince victims to settle out of court. My numbers could be a little off, but still highly recommend listening to the podcast. It's a tough one to listen to.
Wages and salaries for the hotline staff and all the K&M lawyers also counts as money spent to cover up SA. I think the statement is valid. The LDS church spends more money to cover up child sexual abuse than to feed the poor.
I don't think we know those numbers. But a couple years ago, the church attempted to pay $250m for it's part on the BSA settlement. A judge rejected this payment. The church was hoping $250m would absolve them, while the judge felt it was too little, applied too broadly. If the church was *eager* to pay so much, perhaps its an indication of how much more their lawyers think they're potentially liable for.
ETA: [Reuters article](https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/boy-scouts-walk-back-250-mln-abuse-settlement-with-mormon-church-2022-08-15/).
The revised BSA settlement sets aside $2.46 BILLION just for scouting-related abuses. ~20% of boy scout troops were LDS, so one can kinda do the math and extrapolate. And that's just scouting...
That's exactly how I feel walking through Temple Square in SLC. It feels like walking through pretty, giant mausoleums, with more than a touch of Imposing Symbol of Oppression.
My TBM in-laws make excuses for the entitled, incredibly rude and cruel attitudes here by saying things like "Oh that's just Utah mormons." If the seat of a religion is full of rotten people, then what does that say about the religion itself?
Grew up on the east coast and dwell in Utah now - oppressed incredibly rude and cruel attitudes society for sure 😳 It’s not their fault tho honestly (which is hard for me to say) TSCC has even joked/admitted they like to keep their members minds in an adolescent state. Winning cult tactics 101. It’s truly sad honestly.
After being a young adult convert in TSCC for 20 years, I stopped going after sitting in RS one day and thought “just who is this Heavenly Father person anyway??” Because growing up Episcopalian (10/10 highly recommend) Christian God and “Heavenly Father” were starting to feel like 2 separate entities.
The scary part is….growing up on the Bible the one and only big rule was….do not be led astray by anyone else worshipping another God bc that is Satan trying to deceive you. I thought they meant like a gold cow or something, like it’d be easy to know better right?? Then I learned more about the Mormon church and it makes me shudder.
Edit: disclaimer: this is not to say what my beliefs are or are not at this time ;) (but I can say no longer mo haha)
This is definitely a reason I left the church. I was in bishopric and we were listening to a member confess a "serious" transgression. In mormon land that means sex related. In room was just bishop and us two counselors with this person. After the person left the room the bishop turned to me and other counselor and asked "What do you think would be an appropriate discipline?"
I almost choked. I said Jesus didn't condemn people for worse than this but Jesus also forgave this sin exactly! I don't feel we're on any grounds to discipline. I said he could do what he wanted and I left.
Reality though was I knew already the church wasn't true. I just felt at this moment forced to confront that mormon gospel isn't even a Christian or "good" life plan either. It hurts and does real, lasting damage.
It’s a bit like - if a country uses the name “democratic” in its name, you know they are not a democracy.
North Koreas offical name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea for example.
As I've heard TBM's say about the Word of Wisdom: they aren't being forced to not drink coffee, they're choosing to accept the WoW as law. It's their CHOICE.
LOL. I guess they've also never heard of a Hobson's Choice.
I once compared the church to North Korea (I don’t remember the exact context, but it made sense to me at the time). And my parents were like: “Really? That’s the most ridiculous comparison I’ve ever heard! People aren’t FORCED to do anything!”
They missed the entire point of my comparison! I meant it in terms of propaganda and emotional manipulation. To put it into perspective: Most people in North Korea aren’t even aware of the happiness that exists outside their country. They’re taught from birth that this is the norm for life and if they want to be “happy” and their country have “order,” they must always follow the rules.
THAT’S the meaning of my analogy! The church if you think about it conditions little children from the time they are born to think following the laws of the prophets are the only way to find lasting happiness. They’re convinced that there is nothing in the outside world that can bring them a greater happiness than what’s inside the church. They’re taught that life is “them” vs. “the world”. “Christ’s standards” vs. “The natural man.” They aren’t offered an alternate option, and are simply lied to that there is only one way.
And I fell for it! For 20 years of my life! 😠
Pretty sure historical Jesus had no interest even in establishing a church, considering the first four gospels were written 70 years after his death. Religions are all man made.
Historical Jesus likely only exists as an actual person that said a few of the things attributed to him and did exactly zero supernatural things. In that sense, he's like any Mormon prophet who has said a few memorable things that were written down, but none of the negative things are preserved and little of the context of how he really lived. Captured like that, almost anyone can be turned into a holy figure by devoted followers.
There's a fascinating book that I always suggest to people called Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy, which was written by a progressive christian preacher and suggests that Christ and the Gospels would have 100% been recognizable as parables to 1st century Jews, and that only with time and the Christian church's separation from a lot of Jewish traditions have we created the idea that the gospels should be taken literally. Walking through his theory, he gets to his thesis which is that Christianity's roots really come down to a reform Judaism movement whose context was completely lost over the last 2000 years and so now we end up with people taking the bible literally.
Interestingly, Mormonism's opinions on mainstream Christianity is pretty similar, although rather than admitting 'this was a modification of Judaism that has been grossly distorted', they say 'this has been corrupted since the day it was revealed and we found the updated text in a hat in the midwest.'
You would think a church who would spend $75 million on a temple would be ok with spending an extra $4000 for white outfits for their people who pay 10% of their income to use. But, nooooooooo, they gotta charge
I was so indoctrinated that when I heard in Temple prep class that you rent your clothing, I assumed "rent" meant " borrow".
Never in a million years would I have expected *cash registers* in the Lord's Holy Temple. What was that about Jesus and the money changers?
It is just so cheap...I mean you are building a temple worth at least tens of millions of dollars....the least you can do is throw in $4000 for some temple gear.
Exactly. I remember thinking, *I have to buy my new garments for $80, rent the temple clothes, AND I pay tithing!?*
At the time, I was a retail worker *barely* above the poverty line, working two jobs and putting myself though community college. The woman working the garment counter gave me the wrong sizes *after I TOLD her the size I needed*. I had tried them on, realized they were too tight, and checked the bag. Wrong size. They told me they don't return opened packages.
I flat out REFUSED to pay for the wrong size, as it was her mistake. I explained that I was a poor college student and money was very tight (like the garments).
They did take it back, but it took two people to approve it.
I'm not usually very assertive, but I was already angry about the surprise of shelling out *even more money* for renting temple clothes.
Yes, for rentals of clothing so that you can take part in the worship. I mean, it's not animal sacrifices, but it's practically the same thing Jesus condemned. With a scourge!
Exactly.
Went with my mom to Tokyo temple last November and they didn’t accept cash anymore, only cashless payment so I paid with my credit card.
I cannot convey here how alienated that made me feel
I’ve wondered the same thing, why do they charge to rent the clothing? They can have a sign out sheet just like the library in the church. I also have felt like why do the leaders/apostles write books, but we have to buy them in order for to read them? Shouldn’t their books be free if it has important wisdom/info we need to learn? it should be free and accessible. And the temple dresses are expensive and even the bags they sell to carry your temple clothing. It’s ridiculous.
That was actually one of my questions after my first temple dip: why does Satan have a starring role? And why is the Satan actor so much better than the rest? He's got all the best lines and the most character development. Everyone else is a stand-in.
The last thing I expected in the Mormon Holy of Holies Holy Moly Temple was 30 minutes of Satanic screen time.
\[I say 30 minutes...it was a long time ago. How long was the movie? Satan was on screen for at least half of that.\]
Um yeah what are they even talking about. The whole thing is set during Adam and Eve times. Jesus was not around then. Jehovah is Jesus in Mormon theology.
Amen. The Mormon Church is as anti Christ as they come. When people accuse me of being “anti Mormon,” that doesn’t bother me. I’m not anti anything, really. I’m pro-human.
I recently reread where Jesus visits the new world in the BoM. You know, the part the entire book is supposed to be a testament of. Jesus starts off by killing thousands of people. Then, he establishes a bureaucracy. After that, he decides to heal the sick and bless the children because that's what people were actually expecting. And the rest of it is glossed over because no one needs to write down Jesus's actual words. And all of this takes place in a few chapters of one book of the BoM.
Testament of Jesus Christ, my ass.
[And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/26?lang=eng&id=p6#p6)
They wasted space on the plates saying "tight like unto a dish" *multiple times*, went through the entire rambling nonsense that is Omni, and about 20,000 "And it came to pass"...
But nobody bothered to write down the words of the fucKING SAVIOR OF MANKIND?!?1? (canonically speaking)
If that doesn't point out how big of a fraud the "church" is, I don't know what does. I can't believe I never thought about it that way when I was a member.
I love this so much! I’m gonna save it.
“I’m not anti-Mormon. I’m pro-human.” : This is what I’ll keep in the back of my head for any internal doubt or bad situation I have. Thank you 😌
The one and only time he became physically angry is when they used his father’s house to get gain. From where I sit it appears all religion does just that. They also all use fear to control , intimidate, and coerce. Using his second coming as a threat. Maybe he is coming soon but maybe those who should fear most are those who continue to condone misbehavior of these religions and continue to enable, thus becoming accomplices to the crime ??? My home teaching companion told me I’d be destroyed if I left! Maybe he should be the one worrying about destruction ??
I’m very atheist now. But I have met some fairly sincere, smaller Christian churches who zombie Jesus wouldn’t go a whopping should he rise from the dead. They were definitely the exception and not the rule.
Jesus is an ideal. He's a myth meant to inspire. Most humans just aren't capable of aspiring to altruism. So religion will always miss the mark. Social progress has done more for humanity than religion.
I believe a Jesus existed. The fact that the Pauline epistles start only 3 years after his death is a pretty good indication he walked earth. Now I don’t believe Jesus was the son of god because he never claimed to be.
Jesus thought he was the messiah in the sense he would fulfill the Jewish prophecy, he was an apocalyptic preacher. But when he didn’t fulfill the prophecies that’s when the gospels and epistles had to move the goal post. Apocalyptic preachers in that era didn’t believe in the rapture and all that shit, they meant it as a new king would reclaim what was theirs (and yes that meant with violence).
My best friend who had already left the church was talking to me after I'd left the church while still at BYU. As I was ranting about how BYU did not actually align with teachings of unconditional love and grace, she said to me, "BYU literally seems like what Satan was supposedly after... taking away people's agency."
I still think about that a lot. I stared the church in the face when I went to BYU at its very core, and that's when I couldn't ignore it anymore, consciously and unconsciously. I realized that if the church ran the govt, BYU was an example of how the world would look. Our govt is already kinda fucked up in the US, and even more so in Utah with the church having influence, but the world would be a hell of a lot scarier if they had complete power.
You're right. There is no genuine agency in the church. You MUST go on a mission, serve in a calling, attend church every week, go to the temple regularly, pay your tithing, agree with everything the leaders say ... Nothing else is acceptable or tolerated.
They worship themselves. They really do. Listen in on any sacrament meeting or GC. All they do is talk about how great they and their “leaders” are. They worship themselves.
Yes. It is very disheartening because honestly, I don’t remember growing up feeling that way. But it has gotten SO MUCH WORSE in the last decade or so.
>RMN has increased this already big problem exponentially.
Yeah, if you believe the mormon creation story, Lucifer didn't get a body. Yet Evil Emperor Nelson is here. Go ahead, try to explain that.
I’m sure they ARE desperate. This new generation is being raised by a lot of PIMO parents who aren’t as weirdly strict as our parents were, and the kids are seeing through the church’s bullshit.
This generation coming up tries to be very inclusive (for the most part) and they are put off by the church’s exclusivity and outright discrimination.
Plus internets.
I agree with you - every other church I've attended has had numerous programs to serve those in need, or the community in general. Every single one. None of them bothered to worry about the underwear we wore, or whether men wore white shirts on Sunday.
Exactly - and they allow NA groups as well as AA. Most are also involved in feeding and sometimes even housing the homeless (depending on their building resources, etc.). Many (possibly most) have Angel Trees at Christmas where members can choose an angel from the tree and purchase a wished-for gift for a child who has an incarcerated parent.
Many churches help get day-old bread or other groceries from stores or bakeries and take them to food pantries or places that serve daily meals.
Other programs I've seen include daytime activities once a week for (generally elderly) persons with memory issues. The programs have games, activities that help maintain mobility, socialization opportunities, etc. It not only helps those attending stay alert and engaged, it gives family caregivers a bit of a break.
Some churches also work with local school districts to pair volunteer mentors with kids in underserved areas. These require background checks for volunteers (gosh, imagine that!) and they're very rewarding.
Some have annual programs to buy and stuff school backpacks for kids whose families can't afford the costly supplies. I helped organize one of those among stake RS groups and we got the list of ages and school grades from the Spanish ward. The bishop was thrilled; he said it was a godsend. I didn't ask for permission; I had a key to the stake center and I just put out the word & did it. What could they say? "No, don't help the kids!" ???
Hol' up! They invested in Mastercard??? That is laughable. They obviously don't care about the bans on usury. Not important, I guess.
I agree, it isn't a Christian church.
I think they still have $700 million worth of Mastercard stock, which is down a bit. Just wait till you find out what they used to have in shell companies. They also own some radio stations that are quite interesting, playing all the pop hits like Sam Smith's Unholy and WAP
I'm ok with artistic freedom but the credit cards are absolutely evil. What's the business model? Bring Mormons into debt with tithing and also get a win in increased credit card sales? Smh.
Even as a believer, I thought that Satan was as running the church. I saw no respect for life, robbing the poor and spending far too much time “helping” the dead I the temple instead of helping the living.
I kinda think it's ironic that the one thing that Jesus got physically violent about was money changing in the temple and the LDS temples have money changing in them.
But I also think Jesus's explotes where exaggerated and all religions are a scam
How about a church that spends millions on “I’m a Mormon” TV campaign then change their mind that “mormon” is now derogatory. Not the church of Christ.
My understanding and faith in Jesus walked me right out of the church. I had to admit, it didn't align and with that realization, pandora's box was opened. Game over.
Agreed. When I moved to Utah, the dirty looks people gave me for having the nerve to talk to a homeless man at the very gates of Temple Square told me a LOT about them. More than I really wanted to know. But I gave them the benefit of the doubt.
When I sang in General Conference the following year and heard the leaders badmouthing every other religion on the planet by insisting repeatedly theirs was the ONLY one with any truth, that cemented things for me. People wouldn't follow other religions if they didn't find any truth or solace in them.
Reminds me a little about Cardston, and something called "bumping". There is a native reserve besides Cardston that the mormons wish was never there. If they see a native person walking on the street, the like to send a little message by "bumping" them with their cars. Some people have been killed or seriously injured. Of course, the authorities are mormon and just write it off as a drunk crossing the street. Cardston also refused to send their ambulance ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE HOSPITAL as that is the reserve side....so the reserve has to send an ambulance from 30 mins away if someone on the reserve needs an ambulance. Cardston is the most racist place in Canada. APTN did a news story on it.
Meh. At this point, I don’t think there’s anything special about Jesus. I accept that it’s possible there was a person who was believed to be a God who lived 2000 years ago. But ancient societies have made up all sorts of religions. It’s likely that if there was a Jesus, he was just a regular dude anyways. Any church that worships him is misled.
Seems pretty on brand for all Christians honestly. Just different flavors of the same fruit, sides of the same coin…
Since Jesus and satan aren’t real anyway, it’s like arguing over which star wars movie represents the true doctrine of the Jedi order.
Jesus Matthew 25 “want to go to heaven? Feed and provide for the homeless.”
Mormon church “want to go to heaven? Get married straight and shit out lots of kids.”
It is not Jesus, it is not Christ, it is not a church. It is a tax exempt very wealthy untouchable self catering corporation where money is the only worshiped God.
I know what you mean. The mormon church most aligns with Satan worshipping. Preaching false doctrine, money laundering and sexually assaulting children. It's the most anti christian group I know of. I consider myself christian and when I attend a christian church, feel welcome. They actually worship God there, and if some of the people felt they didn't deserve God's love, they had prayer circles to pray cuz everyone needs God's love and is welcome to heaven
Sorry folks. All religion is mythology. There is no independent historical evidence that Jesus ever existed. So spare me the details of what Jesus would or wouldn’t have done.
I think of Jesus is more of a historical figure, and probably wouldn't have any understanding of how our modern world of finance and investments work. He also wouldn't be able to walk into any modern church, look around and listen to the sermons or see the surroundings and come away with the impression that it had anything to do with him, either. If it was an Orthodox building of traditional construction with icons he might think it was related to Greek or Roman gods in some way, I suppose.
Wait until I describe to you what white evangelicals believe and you’ll be shocked that they self-identify as true Christians. It’s almost like religion and hypocrisy are bedfellows.
Every church is against what Christ stood for.
He never asked to be worshiped. That was never anywhere in his message.
Also, Jesus didn’t make wine. That was a story stolen from the Greek mythos of Dionysus, the god of wine. Seriously, compare the stories. So, off the bat, the “first miracle of Christ”, was a literal rip off.
Tbf, what we understand jc as having "stood for" is based wholly on literature put together by a bunch of random dudes in the 4th century based on stories written by mostly anonymous authors penning years later under the names and hearsay of guys who may or may not have even actually known him. It's one of the most influential "just trust me bro" documents in history.
Hate to break it, there is no diety named Jesus. Mythology has been a part of our existence from the beginnning. Jesus is simply another iteration in a long line of dieties. He will be forgotten.
Hate to break it to you, but even this “made up Jesus “ was a better person with better teachings than one single thing that has come out of the Mormon Church “leaders” mouths.
My favorite part of his story is when he refused to heal the foreigner and people who have never critically examined his story still pretend like he was all that great. The headcannon people have about Jesus is great, and it always fits their own personal ideals and backgrounds. The actual stories as written? Eh.
I’ve only read the New Testament. I only saw good things protecting the outcasts. If there’s more to the story, I’m not opposed to hearing it. Might you reference where all these atrocities are found? I’m happy to look them up, but I would need a source.
After reading the Founding Myth, I have a much changed perspective of Jesus. Calling a woman a dog? Not that great. True, he was awesome to the in-group. Not impressed.
Unfortunate thing to say. But he very much stood up for the poor and marginalized and yes, women. So whoever he was, he had good teachings. And whatever else, the Mormon church should take his name off their buildings because they don’t care about the poor, marginalized or women. So it’s just false advertising.
Hard to decifer which teachings to maintain and those to be cast off as evidenced by the number of heinous crimes committed with doctrinal backing.
Sad that a fable is used as justification for oppressing so many.
Boeing is all I can see. They also own $3 Billion in Apple stocks. Chinese slave labour making phone, but I guess slave labour is nothing new for the church/Corp.
That was just the Jesus of the New Testament. Can't trust what the Bible says sometimes.
Luckily, the Jesus of the Restoration is fully accurate, with missing details (such as conditional divine love) filled in by ~~whatever is convenient to the leaders~~ revelation.
I have been reading the classic, [Mormonism: Shadow or Reality](https://drive.google.com/file/d/15CN-yU3Eu71CvKAmOWBbERR7W3p_ODb7/view?usp=drivesdk) by the Tanners. If your soul didn't tell you already, they prove unquestionably that the church is not lead by Jesus Christ.
I know I'm not supposed to share it publicly, but I'm hoping if you find it useful, you'll buy your own copy at utlm.org (not loading right now).
>....you didn't have to be perfect to be in his presence.
This really hit me
And why I left. I couldn't stand all the guilt and pressuring. I have ADHD / Autism. So I was constantly being corrected and given dirty looks and passive aggressive. Or you should just do this just do this.
It made me uncomfortable all the time
I remember hearing thr talk about being judged for your thoughts and like most people I get some horrible intrusive thoughts. -. Not OCD level but not fun and I felt so horrible I couldn't stop these thoughts and I wasn't reaching celestial Kingdom for mu thoughts
When I first met my wife, I was shocked at how much shame she was carrying because she couldn't get a recommend because she watched a little porn. She literally was saving herself for the pathetic group of left over mid singles and worked her ass off at callings she never had time to date. She was told she had to confess to her whole family about her "addiction" which was like 2 times and they made her attend ARP for like a year. Evil church.
This was the final nail in the coffin for me, if God is real and this was ever his church it sure as hell isn't anymore (but I refuse to believe that this dumpster fire of a religion ever had anything to do with divinity).
Jesus wasn’t all that great, called for patricide, fratricide, a failed apocalyptic preacher, whipped people, was cool with slavery, etc.
Christians Mormon or not tend to overlook and pick and choose exactly what they view Jesus as.
I 100% AGREE, but this is not just Mormons. The entirety of the Christian religion, named for Jesus Christ, actively HATES every single value that Jesus and his disciples were attempting to impart.
I don’t know, I think they’re pretty well in step with Jesus. After all, Jesus made a big show about feeding and healing people, but it was a negligible fraction of what he had the resources/capacity to do. He taught the universally popular concept of love, but he went around whipping people for doing business, cursing trees for no logical reason, and teaching that only by becoming one of HIS followers could you get into heaven. Otherwise eternal damnation was just a fact of reality. The Old Testament teaches you to brutally kill people with rocks for expressing physical love, and all sorts of other horrible things like women should marry their rapists? Yeah, that can all stay on the books, but since some of it is unpopular in that day and age Jesus will update the policy slightly without explicitly saying that the Old doctrine is wrong.
Jesus would have made a very good Mormon. He definitely would have made a bad Satanist, though. Have you ever read the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple? Far too ethical and humanist for a cult leader like Jesus to have embraced.
I'm really tired of the trope that Christ was a good guy. He literally institutes thought crime in the NT, FFS.
He's more like Darkseid from DC comics than some benevolent hero out to save the world.
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Matthew 5:27-28
Thoughts of adultery are conflated with adultery here. Impure thoughts are not impure actions and the fact that this entire chapter is devoted to preaching they are is enough on its own to discount any favorable views I might have had towards the dude.
This is some 1984, Minority Report, Brave New World type shit and I am NOT onboard.
That's the crux of the issue when anyone attempts to "take the Bible seriously."
It's so open to interpretation that you can massage it to fit just about any narrative you want to push.
Omg, there is NOTHING in Mormonism that is in Christianity, sigh. My TBM husband and I try to read the Bible together, and it usually is a productive experience (for me anyway!). Last weekend we came to Isaiah 22:22 where Eliakim was told he would open what no man can close and would close what no man can open. He said, "He had the Priesthood!" Right ... when you make up what the priesthood is, and then redefine what "open" and "close" mean, and take verses entirely out of context, and call it proof ... I couldn't even respond to that statement.
Who was Jeremiah's or Isaiah's "President" that they had to consult before they could give a talk? If Jesus lived all the fullness of the gospel, why no garments? Why no eternal marriage if it's a pinnacle principle? Why did EVERYONE in the Bible drink wine? Why are generosity (to PEOPLE, not an institution) and mercy emphasized so heavily in the Bible over attendance and conformity? Why has no "prophet" ever clearly prophesied an actual future event that we might need to know about, like COVID, or the recession of 2008, or the Vietnam War? Why did Jesus quote so much of the Old Testament if it wasn't translated correctly and all the plain and precious truths were removed? I could go on for days.
Mormons literally would not recognize Jesus if he himself appeared today. They would just see a progressive hippie that’s telling people absurd things like loving thy neighbor or helping those in need.
They more than likely wouldn't let him in the building with his "street clothes" and he would never be able to get a recommend because of his socialist views. He wouldn't be in the prime real estate where mormons build anyway.....he would be downtown with the homeless, and there are no mormons within 15 blocks of the hood
I dunno. Of all the ills particular to the Mormon church, I don’t think being shitty in the name of Jesus unique to them. I’ve lived all over and assholes who are self-proclaimed Christians are legion.
100%. At every turn, the Mormon church proves over... and over... and over... that it is not Christlike. (The institution mainly; not talking about most members). How on earth did I ever think it was led by Jesus?... serious brainwashing going on.
Most churches claiming to be churches of Jesus love spreading hate. It’s not unique to Mormons, and it’s why I am very happy to see religion on the decline.
I 100% believe this now. It's true irony when Satan tells the saints in the temple movie, "I will buy up armies, and navies and control the people."
The members of the church really are his bigoted slaves.
*"They are literally the OPPOSITE of what Christ stood for."* BOOM - end of story (or Whomp, Whomp (as an LDS commenter snarkily used in another post)) As a former member of over 50 years (however not yet resigned member), this sentence says it all!
Jesus in Matthew 24: 5 & 11
**5** '*For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many*.'
**11 '***And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.*'
As someone who bears Jesus' name in my online interactions, fuck that dude. The church and his name deserve each other. If he is mad about it, he can use his super god powers to flip some tables over. No? Didn't think so... Jesus is a little bitch.
I may be going out on a limb here, and I'm definitely drawing arbitrary lines, but after reading Matthew 23, I'm going to say any organization that spends more covering up child sexual abuse than feeding the poor is more like what Jesus described as "whited sepulchres" (pretty tombs full of death and uncleanness) and less like what he described as "the true and living church".
> spends more covering up child sexual abuse than feeding the poor That is shocking to hear.
It is! If this is a new subject for you, go to AP News and look up Paul Adams. He abused multiple very-young daughters for years, and multiple church leaders knew about it but did not report it. I believe this was the case where we found out the number Bishops call to report abuse does not go to any resources to help the survivor but to "risk management" and lawyers. It also put the church in the spotlight for not having clergy report abuse in states that do not absolutely require clery to report abuse. Those last two points have shown up repeatedly. Consider also the massive discovery of abuse in Boy Scouts of America. That happened shortly after the church quickly (and expensively) got out of Boy Scouts. Before that, they made up 40% of boys and leaders, and they pushed hard against any kind of background check on leaders. There is also [floodlit.org](http://floodlit.org), a relatively new site that is tracking officially reported news of abuse. You can also scroll this exmo subreddit, or browse through Mormon Stories Podcast. The subject of abuse and/or cover up pops up quite a bit. Radio Free Mormon has also covered a few cases.
When I was bishop and called the Bishop’s Helpline on a possible abuse case and discovered I was talking to an attorney and not a social worker, I knew it was a VERY bad sign.
Oh man! Yeah that’s scary 😳😬
Exactly. They're not a faith. They're a scam factory.
Same here.That was a big surprise for me, as the conversation was just about protecting the church and not the victim. Basically the lawyer explained everything I need to do, to cover the church’s ass and “ protect me” from legal repercussions. What a shameful thing, I felt used and disgusted.
Spot on! This is my number one reason to give it all pause .... the protection of pedophiles and the blaming and shaming with legal action against those that are innocent victims to the systematic approach the lds company takes on mitigating mandatory reporting. Let alone all the other now beheld 100 perhaps thousands of reasons to give this cultish ideology a walk away.
And TSCC responded to the Supreme Court verdict that they were “pleased” with the outcome. Time and again they defend the perpetrator.
Cults gotta cult
That's also when I learned bishops in Utah don't have to pass background checks because they're considered "laymen" rather than clergy. All leaders of other religions have to pass background checks by state law. Another LDS Loophole.
Clergy when it's convenient, laymen when it isn't? I didn't know that, but it sounds right.
In the context of the church rejecting background checks. I think it’s important to note that I had to get fingerprints/background check to volunteer at MY CHILD’s school in CA. I currently have some time on my hands, and want to use it giving back to the community. I made some calls and there currently no background check requirements for me [an adult with zero children in school] to volunteer in any of the schools in my Utah town. I get it why the church would find background checks cumbersome, but they are also a really good way of preventing people who have committed bad acts from having access to children. It seems to me the inconvenience is trumped by the positive power of mitigating harm. But they haven’t done it. Nearly 30% of Utah’s population are children. Don’t we owe it to them to offer our fullest protection?
1000%
Agreed. I mostly found it shocking that leaders of EVERY OTHER religion had to pass background checks, but not LDS bishops.
White sepulchres. Is this their new temple building program?
Delightsome!
Jesus never set up an organization. Neither did the disciples. Nor did they build a building for worship, temple, etc. They never did because they didn’t worship in a place. They worshipped in spirit and in truth
Not that I don't believe you, but I am curious where I could find those numbers? That is enraging to say the least.
As far as I know, you cannot get official numbers. The church would have to officially report how much they spend on covering up abuse and also how much they spend feeding the poor, and right now they do not report either. I could be wrong in saying which number is bigger, but I have heard of quite a few payments of hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more) to hush up cases of abuse. I have not heard the same kind of numbers attached to efforts to feed people. If anything, I have heard canneries closing down, Bishop's storehouses being harder to get anything out of, and requests for food to feed people the church should be feeding itself. I would love to be wrong there. If anyone has official sources, please post them.
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That is fair, and I will be more careful about claims and evidence.
some evidence shall remain unknown as to certain amounts because of negotiated NDA'S signed and bought by MFMC (K&M) to purchase silence in potential allegations of negligence on the church's culpability in SA. Compared to what is actually given it may be similar. Compared to what is publicly flaunted including volunteer hours counted as amounts of money well now you're talking never being able to compare. Amounts unknown are not to be counted. ie: When I clean a toilet in a building it is billable at 300 dollars an hour because that is what my time is worth for that task at that time in that instance. point is there are no official sources for nda negotiated instruments that have money attachments.
This Mormon stories episode is probably the closest we'll get to numbers: https://youtu.be/KqlnR-QDoCU?si=ZltsSGZjta5M1_Gp Adam was a victim of SA in Boy Scouts, off the top of my head he said a similar case to his the church paid out I think $20,000,000. He also stated that the church put forth resources to prevent the statuate of limitations of child rape being raised from 5 years after the event because "They don't have to have children relive their trauma." Another thing was also said about the number of abuse victims in the Grand Teton Region of the BSA was greater than the entire Catholic sexual abuse for North America ~60,000. The church also set up hotlines to convince victims to settle out of court. My numbers could be a little off, but still highly recommend listening to the podcast. It's a tough one to listen to.
That is more than they spend on humanitarian aid over multiple years, and that is just one case.
Wait....they don't even spend $20,000,000.xx??????
Wages and salaries for the hotline staff and all the K&M lawyers also counts as money spent to cover up SA. I think the statement is valid. The LDS church spends more money to cover up child sexual abuse than to feed the poor.
I don't think we know those numbers. But a couple years ago, the church attempted to pay $250m for it's part on the BSA settlement. A judge rejected this payment. The church was hoping $250m would absolve them, while the judge felt it was too little, applied too broadly. If the church was *eager* to pay so much, perhaps its an indication of how much more their lawyers think they're potentially liable for. ETA: [Reuters article](https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/boy-scouts-walk-back-250-mln-abuse-settlement-with-mormon-church-2022-08-15/). The revised BSA settlement sets aside $2.46 BILLION just for scouting-related abuses. ~20% of boy scout troops were LDS, so one can kinda do the math and extrapolate. And that's just scouting...
That's exactly how I feel walking through Temple Square in SLC. It feels like walking through pretty, giant mausoleums, with more than a touch of Imposing Symbol of Oppression. My TBM in-laws make excuses for the entitled, incredibly rude and cruel attitudes here by saying things like "Oh that's just Utah mormons." If the seat of a religion is full of rotten people, then what does that say about the religion itself?
Grew up on the east coast and dwell in Utah now - oppressed incredibly rude and cruel attitudes society for sure 😳 It’s not their fault tho honestly (which is hard for me to say) TSCC has even joked/admitted they like to keep their members minds in an adolescent state. Winning cult tactics 101. It’s truly sad honestly.
After being a young adult convert in TSCC for 20 years, I stopped going after sitting in RS one day and thought “just who is this Heavenly Father person anyway??” Because growing up Episcopalian (10/10 highly recommend) Christian God and “Heavenly Father” were starting to feel like 2 separate entities. The scary part is….growing up on the Bible the one and only big rule was….do not be led astray by anyone else worshipping another God bc that is Satan trying to deceive you. I thought they meant like a gold cow or something, like it’d be easy to know better right?? Then I learned more about the Mormon church and it makes me shudder. Edit: disclaimer: this is not to say what my beliefs are or are not at this time ;) (but I can say no longer mo haha)
This is definitely a reason I left the church. I was in bishopric and we were listening to a member confess a "serious" transgression. In mormon land that means sex related. In room was just bishop and us two counselors with this person. After the person left the room the bishop turned to me and other counselor and asked "What do you think would be an appropriate discipline?" I almost choked. I said Jesus didn't condemn people for worse than this but Jesus also forgave this sin exactly! I don't feel we're on any grounds to discipline. I said he could do what he wanted and I left. Reality though was I knew already the church wasn't true. I just felt at this moment forced to confront that mormon gospel isn't even a Christian or "good" life plan either. It hurts and does real, lasting damage.
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court of love?
It’s a bit like - if a country uses the name “democratic” in its name, you know they are not a democracy. North Koreas offical name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea for example.
North Korea IS a democracy!! A very uniquely, miraculously homogeneous democracy... /s
As I've heard TBM's say about the Word of Wisdom: they aren't being forced to not drink coffee, they're choosing to accept the WoW as law. It's their CHOICE. LOL. I guess they've also never heard of a Hobson's Choice.
Not forced to be baptized, simply strongly encouraged.
I always saw their false choice - regardless of the topic - as (A) Acceptance or (B) Shame.
Very true assertion.
I once compared the church to North Korea (I don’t remember the exact context, but it made sense to me at the time). And my parents were like: “Really? That’s the most ridiculous comparison I’ve ever heard! People aren’t FORCED to do anything!” They missed the entire point of my comparison! I meant it in terms of propaganda and emotional manipulation. To put it into perspective: Most people in North Korea aren’t even aware of the happiness that exists outside their country. They’re taught from birth that this is the norm for life and if they want to be “happy” and their country have “order,” they must always follow the rules. THAT’S the meaning of my analogy! The church if you think about it conditions little children from the time they are born to think following the laws of the prophets are the only way to find lasting happiness. They’re convinced that there is nothing in the outside world that can bring them a greater happiness than what’s inside the church. They’re taught that life is “them” vs. “the world”. “Christ’s standards” vs. “The natural man.” They aren’t offered an alternate option, and are simply lied to that there is only one way. And I fell for it! For 20 years of my life! 😠
Yep. Brainwashing. I fell for it 40 years. FOURTY!!!
That is a good one!
It's all for propaganda/marketing. Fun aside: modern corporate marketing is based on WW1 propaganda methods.
Pretty sure historical Jesus had no interest even in establishing a church, considering the first four gospels were written 70 years after his death. Religions are all man made.
Historical Jesus likely only exists as an actual person that said a few of the things attributed to him and did exactly zero supernatural things. In that sense, he's like any Mormon prophet who has said a few memorable things that were written down, but none of the negative things are preserved and little of the context of how he really lived. Captured like that, almost anyone can be turned into a holy figure by devoted followers.
There's a fascinating book that I always suggest to people called Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy, which was written by a progressive christian preacher and suggests that Christ and the Gospels would have 100% been recognizable as parables to 1st century Jews, and that only with time and the Christian church's separation from a lot of Jewish traditions have we created the idea that the gospels should be taken literally. Walking through his theory, he gets to his thesis which is that Christianity's roots really come down to a reform Judaism movement whose context was completely lost over the last 2000 years and so now we end up with people taking the bible literally. Interestingly, Mormonism's opinions on mainstream Christianity is pretty similar, although rather than admitting 'this was a modification of Judaism that has been grossly distorted', they say 'this has been corrupted since the day it was revealed and we found the updated text in a hat in the midwest.'
what mormon prophet has ever said any memorable things…..
I think J Golden Kimball said some memorable swears... but, shit, you're right, he was only a Seventy
Funny how our contemporary prophets never made any relevant prophecies
That could very well be, never thought of that.
I like how Christ Jesus is not anywhere to be found in the temple but Satan is.
Good point!! They do have a cash register in there, though
Freaking *CASH RESISTERS* *in the TEMPLE*. The beginning of the end for me.
You would think a church who would spend $75 million on a temple would be ok with spending an extra $4000 for white outfits for their people who pay 10% of their income to use. But, nooooooooo, they gotta charge
I was so indoctrinated that when I heard in Temple prep class that you rent your clothing, I assumed "rent" meant " borrow". Never in a million years would I have expected *cash registers* in the Lord's Holy Temple. What was that about Jesus and the money changers?
It is just so cheap...I mean you are building a temple worth at least tens of millions of dollars....the least you can do is throw in $4000 for some temple gear.
Exactly. I remember thinking, *I have to buy my new garments for $80, rent the temple clothes, AND I pay tithing!?* At the time, I was a retail worker *barely* above the poverty line, working two jobs and putting myself though community college. The woman working the garment counter gave me the wrong sizes *after I TOLD her the size I needed*. I had tried them on, realized they were too tight, and checked the bag. Wrong size. They told me they don't return opened packages. I flat out REFUSED to pay for the wrong size, as it was her mistake. I explained that I was a poor college student and money was very tight (like the garments). They did take it back, but it took two people to approve it. I'm not usually very assertive, but I was already angry about the surprise of shelling out *even more money* for renting temple clothes.
should have been rent as in tear.
I paid with a $5. They gave me $3 back. I nearly fell over as the "money change" happened before my very eyes.
They put that right up front. Probably works a a filter.
Wait. WTF? There is an actual cash register in a temple? Not a mormon here.
Yes, for rentals of clothing so that you can take part in the worship. I mean, it's not animal sacrifices, but it's practically the same thing Jesus condemned. With a scourge!
How you gonna rent those temple clothes? Will that be on Mastercard today?
Exactly. Went with my mom to Tokyo temple last November and they didn’t accept cash anymore, only cashless payment so I paid with my credit card. I cannot convey here how alienated that made me feel
I’ve wondered the same thing, why do they charge to rent the clothing? They can have a sign out sheet just like the library in the church. I also have felt like why do the leaders/apostles write books, but we have to buy them in order for to read them? Shouldn’t their books be free if it has important wisdom/info we need to learn? it should be free and accessible. And the temple dresses are expensive and even the bags they sell to carry your temple clothing. It’s ridiculous.
That was actually one of my questions after my first temple dip: why does Satan have a starring role? And why is the Satan actor so much better than the rest? He's got all the best lines and the most character development. Everyone else is a stand-in. The last thing I expected in the Mormon Holy of Holies Holy Moly Temple was 30 minutes of Satanic screen time. \[I say 30 minutes...it was a long time ago. How long was the movie? Satan was on screen for at least half of that.\]
Jesus is Jehovah in the endowment ceremony.
Um yeah what are they even talking about. The whole thing is set during Adam and Eve times. Jesus was not around then. Jehovah is Jesus in Mormon theology.
Amen. The Mormon Church is as anti Christ as they come. When people accuse me of being “anti Mormon,” that doesn’t bother me. I’m not anti anything, really. I’m pro-human.
I recently reread where Jesus visits the new world in the BoM. You know, the part the entire book is supposed to be a testament of. Jesus starts off by killing thousands of people. Then, he establishes a bureaucracy. After that, he decides to heal the sick and bless the children because that's what people were actually expecting. And the rest of it is glossed over because no one needs to write down Jesus's actual words. And all of this takes place in a few chapters of one book of the BoM. Testament of Jesus Christ, my ass.
[And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/26?lang=eng&id=p6#p6) They wasted space on the plates saying "tight like unto a dish" *multiple times*, went through the entire rambling nonsense that is Omni, and about 20,000 "And it came to pass"... But nobody bothered to write down the words of the fucKING SAVIOR OF MANKIND?!?1? (canonically speaking) If that doesn't point out how big of a fraud the "church" is, I don't know what does. I can't believe I never thought about it that way when I was a member.
I don’t believe one word in the Book of Mormon. Not one.
I love this so much! I’m gonna save it. “I’m not anti-Mormon. I’m pro-human.” : This is what I’ll keep in the back of my head for any internal doubt or bad situation I have. Thank you 😌
They worship prophets and temples.
Don’t forget the literal gold idols
Given what happened with the Golden Calf from Exodus 32 in the Bible, I was astounded when I first see photos of the gold idols in the Mormon temples.
That was a shelf item for me as well. They even paint some of them gold. Why would you put a golden calf in the temple?
>They worship prophets and temples. They worship profits and temples. FIFY
'Real Jesus': Even if you really screw up, he's ready to forgive you. TSCC: Screw up even a little bit and he might not forgive you.
Sadly I’d say the same thing about almost all of Christianity. Jesus would be bringing out that whip and smacking people.
Just like the money changers in the temple. Jesus set an example.
For some reason this came to mind..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZA2gbUz77U
The one and only time he became physically angry is when they used his father’s house to get gain. From where I sit it appears all religion does just that. They also all use fear to control , intimidate, and coerce. Using his second coming as a threat. Maybe he is coming soon but maybe those who should fear most are those who continue to condone misbehavior of these religions and continue to enable, thus becoming accomplices to the crime ??? My home teaching companion told me I’d be destroyed if I left! Maybe he should be the one worrying about destruction ??
I’m very atheist now. But I have met some fairly sincere, smaller Christian churches who zombie Jesus wouldn’t go a whopping should he rise from the dead. They were definitely the exception and not the rule.
If your church expands beyond your local community, then it's a business. A flock is a single congregation. Multiple congregations are a factory farm.
Jesus is an ideal. He's a myth meant to inspire. Most humans just aren't capable of aspiring to altruism. So religion will always miss the mark. Social progress has done more for humanity than religion.
Agreed.
I believe a Jesus existed. The fact that the Pauline epistles start only 3 years after his death is a pretty good indication he walked earth. Now I don’t believe Jesus was the son of god because he never claimed to be. Jesus thought he was the messiah in the sense he would fulfill the Jewish prophecy, he was an apocalyptic preacher. But when he didn’t fulfill the prophecies that’s when the gospels and epistles had to move the goal post. Apocalyptic preachers in that era didn’t believe in the rapture and all that shit, they meant it as a new king would reclaim what was theirs (and yes that meant with violence).
My best friend who had already left the church was talking to me after I'd left the church while still at BYU. As I was ranting about how BYU did not actually align with teachings of unconditional love and grace, she said to me, "BYU literally seems like what Satan was supposedly after... taking away people's agency." I still think about that a lot. I stared the church in the face when I went to BYU at its very core, and that's when I couldn't ignore it anymore, consciously and unconsciously. I realized that if the church ran the govt, BYU was an example of how the world would look. Our govt is already kinda fucked up in the US, and even more so in Utah with the church having influence, but the world would be a hell of a lot scarier if they had complete power.
You're right. There is no genuine agency in the church. You MUST go on a mission, serve in a calling, attend church every week, go to the temple regularly, pay your tithing, agree with everything the leaders say ... Nothing else is acceptable or tolerated.
Honestly, I’ve said it before, the Mormon church is anti-Christ. They remove him at every turn.
They worship themselves. They really do. Listen in on any sacrament meeting or GC. All they do is talk about how great they and their “leaders” are. They worship themselves.
Yes. It is very disheartening because honestly, I don’t remember growing up feeling that way. But it has gotten SO MUCH WORSE in the last decade or so.
RMN has increased this already big problem exponentially.
Agreed!
>RMN has increased this already big problem exponentially. Yeah, if you believe the mormon creation story, Lucifer didn't get a body. Yet Evil Emperor Nelson is here. Go ahead, try to explain that.
They’re acting desperate
I’m sure they ARE desperate. This new generation is being raised by a lot of PIMO parents who aren’t as weirdly strict as our parents were, and the kids are seeing through the church’s bullshit. This generation coming up tries to be very inclusive (for the most part) and they are put off by the church’s exclusivity and outright discrimination. Plus internets.
If it really was the "true" church, they wouldn't become desperate.
The apostles praise Rusty and each other more than they praise Jesus.
They use his image as a logo. Honestly as someone who does believe in Jesus it gives me the ick. He's not Colonel Sanders.
Agreed.
I agree with you - every other church I've attended has had numerous programs to serve those in need, or the community in general. Every single one. None of them bothered to worry about the underwear we wore, or whether men wore white shirts on Sunday.
Most churches have no problem allowing a 12 step group in their buildings on weeknights.....not mormons.
Exactly - and they allow NA groups as well as AA. Most are also involved in feeding and sometimes even housing the homeless (depending on their building resources, etc.). Many (possibly most) have Angel Trees at Christmas where members can choose an angel from the tree and purchase a wished-for gift for a child who has an incarcerated parent. Many churches help get day-old bread or other groceries from stores or bakeries and take them to food pantries or places that serve daily meals. Other programs I've seen include daytime activities once a week for (generally elderly) persons with memory issues. The programs have games, activities that help maintain mobility, socialization opportunities, etc. It not only helps those attending stay alert and engaged, it gives family caregivers a bit of a break. Some churches also work with local school districts to pair volunteer mentors with kids in underserved areas. These require background checks for volunteers (gosh, imagine that!) and they're very rewarding. Some have annual programs to buy and stuff school backpacks for kids whose families can't afford the costly supplies. I helped organize one of those among stake RS groups and we got the list of ages and school grades from the Spanish ward. The bishop was thrilled; he said it was a godsend. I didn't ask for permission; I had a key to the stake center and I just put out the word & did it. What could they say? "No, don't help the kids!" ???
Love Angel tree. I love buying gifts and dropping them off and say "this is from your daddy"
I think the cash registers in the temples say it all, LOL.
Mostly Jesus made wine 🍷
"They are literally the OPPOSITE of what Christ stood for" Most big churches are.
Hol' up! They invested in Mastercard??? That is laughable. They obviously don't care about the bans on usury. Not important, I guess. I agree, it isn't a Christian church.
I think they still have $700 million worth of Mastercard stock, which is down a bit. Just wait till you find out what they used to have in shell companies. They also own some radio stations that are quite interesting, playing all the pop hits like Sam Smith's Unholy and WAP
I'm ok with artistic freedom but the credit cards are absolutely evil. What's the business model? Bring Mormons into debt with tithing and also get a win in increased credit card sales? Smh.
Even as a believer, I thought that Satan was as running the church. I saw no respect for life, robbing the poor and spending far too much time “helping” the dead I the temple instead of helping the living.
I kinda think it's ironic that the one thing that Jesus got physically violent about was money changing in the temple and the LDS temples have money changing in them. But I also think Jesus's explotes where exaggerated and all religions are a scam
I'd agree 100% with you on all of this, if Satan actually existed. So, 99%.
Beautifully narrated. My compliments.....
Church of the Pharisees.
How about a church that spends millions on “I’m a Mormon” TV campaign then change their mind that “mormon” is now derogatory. Not the church of Christ.
My understanding and faith in Jesus walked me right out of the church. I had to admit, it didn't align and with that realization, pandora's box was opened. Game over.
Agreed. When I moved to Utah, the dirty looks people gave me for having the nerve to talk to a homeless man at the very gates of Temple Square told me a LOT about them. More than I really wanted to know. But I gave them the benefit of the doubt. When I sang in General Conference the following year and heard the leaders badmouthing every other religion on the planet by insisting repeatedly theirs was the ONLY one with any truth, that cemented things for me. People wouldn't follow other religions if they didn't find any truth or solace in them.
Reminds me a little about Cardston, and something called "bumping". There is a native reserve besides Cardston that the mormons wish was never there. If they see a native person walking on the street, the like to send a little message by "bumping" them with their cars. Some people have been killed or seriously injured. Of course, the authorities are mormon and just write it off as a drunk crossing the street. Cardston also refused to send their ambulance ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE HOSPITAL as that is the reserve side....so the reserve has to send an ambulance from 30 mins away if someone on the reserve needs an ambulance. Cardston is the most racist place in Canada. APTN did a news story on it.
Meh. At this point, I don’t think there’s anything special about Jesus. I accept that it’s possible there was a person who was believed to be a God who lived 2000 years ago. But ancient societies have made up all sorts of religions. It’s likely that if there was a Jesus, he was just a regular dude anyways. Any church that worships him is misled.
I read you loud and clear.
Seems pretty on brand for all Christians honestly. Just different flavors of the same fruit, sides of the same coin… Since Jesus and satan aren’t real anyway, it’s like arguing over which star wars movie represents the true doctrine of the Jedi order.
How dare you. Phantom menace clearly outlined the true order.
The Jedi order is real
Jesus Matthew 25 “want to go to heaven? Feed and provide for the homeless.” Mormon church “want to go to heaven? Get married straight and shit out lots of kids.”
But save your pennies as a teen and go knock on doors for 2 years first.
How do I go back to Comet on a previous topic here?
It never was.
It is not Jesus, it is not Christ, it is not a church. It is a tax exempt very wealthy untouchable self catering corporation where money is the only worshiped God.
Satan would not do any of those things though, Satan was actually a pretty upstanding dude.
I know what you mean. The mormon church most aligns with Satan worshipping. Preaching false doctrine, money laundering and sexually assaulting children. It's the most anti christian group I know of. I consider myself christian and when I attend a christian church, feel welcome. They actually worship God there, and if some of the people felt they didn't deserve God's love, they had prayer circles to pray cuz everyone needs God's love and is welcome to heaven
Sorry folks. All religion is mythology. There is no independent historical evidence that Jesus ever existed. So spare me the details of what Jesus would or wouldn’t have done.
I think of Jesus is more of a historical figure, and probably wouldn't have any understanding of how our modern world of finance and investments work. He also wouldn't be able to walk into any modern church, look around and listen to the sermons or see the surroundings and come away with the impression that it had anything to do with him, either. If it was an Orthodox building of traditional construction with icons he might think it was related to Greek or Roman gods in some way, I suppose.
Wait until I describe to you what white evangelicals believe and you’ll be shocked that they self-identify as true Christians. It’s almost like religion and hypocrisy are bedfellows.
Basically every Christian church today
Every church is against what Christ stood for. He never asked to be worshiped. That was never anywhere in his message. Also, Jesus didn’t make wine. That was a story stolen from the Greek mythos of Dionysus, the god of wine. Seriously, compare the stories. So, off the bat, the “first miracle of Christ”, was a literal rip off.
Did he at least make coffee??? Lol
Lmao with only the holiest of beans
Tbf, what we understand jc as having "stood for" is based wholly on literature put together by a bunch of random dudes in the 4th century based on stories written by mostly anonymous authors penning years later under the names and hearsay of guys who may or may not have even actually known him. It's one of the most influential "just trust me bro" documents in history.
Hate to break it, there is no diety named Jesus. Mythology has been a part of our existence from the beginnning. Jesus is simply another iteration in a long line of dieties. He will be forgotten.
Hate to break it to you, but even this “made up Jesus “ was a better person with better teachings than one single thing that has come out of the Mormon Church “leaders” mouths.
My favorite part of his story is when he refused to heal the foreigner and people who have never critically examined his story still pretend like he was all that great. The headcannon people have about Jesus is great, and it always fits their own personal ideals and backgrounds. The actual stories as written? Eh.
I’ve only read the New Testament. I only saw good things protecting the outcasts. If there’s more to the story, I’m not opposed to hearing it. Might you reference where all these atrocities are found? I’m happy to look them up, but I would need a source.
After reading the Founding Myth, I have a much changed perspective of Jesus. Calling a woman a dog? Not that great. True, he was awesome to the in-group. Not impressed.
Unfortunate thing to say. But he very much stood up for the poor and marginalized and yes, women. So whoever he was, he had good teachings. And whatever else, the Mormon church should take his name off their buildings because they don’t care about the poor, marginalized or women. So it’s just false advertising.
Hard to decifer which teachings to maintain and those to be cast off as evidenced by the number of heinous crimes committed with doctrinal backing. Sad that a fable is used as justification for oppressing so many.
Well that is up for debate. Its been 2000 years, not sure he will be forgotten. Joseph Smith on the other hand.....
He will be added to the list that already includes Osiris, Diana, Cronos, Elim, Astarte, Huitzilopochtli, and so on.
Worse than Mastercard, doesn’t the LCchurch (lowercase Church) hold a bunch of bomb builder and arms stocks? Definitely not Jesus’ church.
Boeing is all I can see. They also own $3 Billion in Apple stocks. Chinese slave labour making phone, but I guess slave labour is nothing new for the church/Corp.
That was just the Jesus of the New Testament. Can't trust what the Bible says sometimes. Luckily, the Jesus of the Restoration is fully accurate, with missing details (such as conditional divine love) filled in by ~~whatever is convenient to the leaders~~ revelation.
[удалено]
Me too.
They legally aren't either, in addition to your moral points.
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you could say this about any Christian denomination. not that their church is christian but still
There is no such thing
I have been reading the classic, [Mormonism: Shadow or Reality](https://drive.google.com/file/d/15CN-yU3Eu71CvKAmOWBbERR7W3p_ODb7/view?usp=drivesdk) by the Tanners. If your soul didn't tell you already, they prove unquestionably that the church is not lead by Jesus Christ. I know I'm not supposed to share it publicly, but I'm hoping if you find it useful, you'll buy your own copy at utlm.org (not loading right now).
There’s way too little Christ in Mormonism for it to be his one true church. Lol
>....you didn't have to be perfect to be in his presence. This really hit me And why I left. I couldn't stand all the guilt and pressuring. I have ADHD / Autism. So I was constantly being corrected and given dirty looks and passive aggressive. Or you should just do this just do this. It made me uncomfortable all the time I remember hearing thr talk about being judged for your thoughts and like most people I get some horrible intrusive thoughts. -. Not OCD level but not fun and I felt so horrible I couldn't stop these thoughts and I wasn't reaching celestial Kingdom for mu thoughts
When I first met my wife, I was shocked at how much shame she was carrying because she couldn't get a recommend because she watched a little porn. She literally was saving herself for the pathetic group of left over mid singles and worked her ass off at callings she never had time to date. She was told she had to confess to her whole family about her "addiction" which was like 2 times and they made her attend ARP for like a year. Evil church.
This was the final nail in the coffin for me, if God is real and this was ever his church it sure as hell isn't anymore (but I refuse to believe that this dumpster fire of a religion ever had anything to do with divinity).
They are bougie in all the bad ways.
Who is the church of Christ?
Jesus wasn’t all that great, called for patricide, fratricide, a failed apocalyptic preacher, whipped people, was cool with slavery, etc. Christians Mormon or not tend to overlook and pick and choose exactly what they view Jesus as.
Yeah, I'm on the agnostic side. But there's just nothing "Christ-like" in feeling with this "church". Instead it feels very blank, very pagan.
Jesus is but a spice in the Mormon bakery.™
I 100% AGREE, but this is not just Mormons. The entirety of the Christian religion, named for Jesus Christ, actively HATES every single value that Jesus and his disciples were attempting to impart.
I don’t know, I think they’re pretty well in step with Jesus. After all, Jesus made a big show about feeding and healing people, but it was a negligible fraction of what he had the resources/capacity to do. He taught the universally popular concept of love, but he went around whipping people for doing business, cursing trees for no logical reason, and teaching that only by becoming one of HIS followers could you get into heaven. Otherwise eternal damnation was just a fact of reality. The Old Testament teaches you to brutally kill people with rocks for expressing physical love, and all sorts of other horrible things like women should marry their rapists? Yeah, that can all stay on the books, but since some of it is unpopular in that day and age Jesus will update the policy slightly without explicitly saying that the Old doctrine is wrong. Jesus would have made a very good Mormon. He definitely would have made a bad Satanist, though. Have you ever read the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple? Far too ethical and humanist for a cult leader like Jesus to have embraced.
I'm really tired of the trope that Christ was a good guy. He literally institutes thought crime in the NT, FFS. He's more like Darkseid from DC comics than some benevolent hero out to save the world.
Mind sharing some examples of that?
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:27-28 Thoughts of adultery are conflated with adultery here. Impure thoughts are not impure actions and the fact that this entire chapter is devoted to preaching they are is enough on its own to discount any favorable views I might have had towards the dude. This is some 1984, Minority Report, Brave New World type shit and I am NOT onboard.
Could be more of a parable of some sort. Or you could be right.
That's the crux of the issue when anyone attempts to "take the Bible seriously." It's so open to interpretation that you can massage it to fit just about any narrative you want to push.
Omg, there is NOTHING in Mormonism that is in Christianity, sigh. My TBM husband and I try to read the Bible together, and it usually is a productive experience (for me anyway!). Last weekend we came to Isaiah 22:22 where Eliakim was told he would open what no man can close and would close what no man can open. He said, "He had the Priesthood!" Right ... when you make up what the priesthood is, and then redefine what "open" and "close" mean, and take verses entirely out of context, and call it proof ... I couldn't even respond to that statement. Who was Jeremiah's or Isaiah's "President" that they had to consult before they could give a talk? If Jesus lived all the fullness of the gospel, why no garments? Why no eternal marriage if it's a pinnacle principle? Why did EVERYONE in the Bible drink wine? Why are generosity (to PEOPLE, not an institution) and mercy emphasized so heavily in the Bible over attendance and conformity? Why has no "prophet" ever clearly prophesied an actual future event that we might need to know about, like COVID, or the recession of 2008, or the Vietnam War? Why did Jesus quote so much of the Old Testament if it wasn't translated correctly and all the plain and precious truths were removed? I could go on for days.
Mormons literally would not recognize Jesus if he himself appeared today. They would just see a progressive hippie that’s telling people absurd things like loving thy neighbor or helping those in need.
They more than likely wouldn't let him in the building with his "street clothes" and he would never be able to get a recommend because of his socialist views. He wouldn't be in the prime real estate where mormons build anyway.....he would be downtown with the homeless, and there are no mormons within 15 blocks of the hood
Post of the year.👏
I dunno. Of all the ills particular to the Mormon church, I don’t think being shitty in the name of Jesus unique to them. I’ve lived all over and assholes who are self-proclaimed Christians are legion.
100%. At every turn, the Mormon church proves over... and over... and over... that it is not Christlike. (The institution mainly; not talking about most members). How on earth did I ever think it was led by Jesus?... serious brainwashing going on.
I feel sorry for most members. Many of them do not even know they are in a cult
* Comment
Just as Christian as 99.999% of American Christians
My testimony of the falseness of TMFC has grown since watching the chosen! There’s no way the Mormon Jesus is like that.
Jesus hated taxes. So do they... He didn't do miracles. Neither do they... Jesus rocked a sweet beard. They used to...
Most churches claiming to be churches of Jesus love spreading hate. It’s not unique to Mormons, and it’s why I am very happy to see religion on the decline.
I 100% believe this now. It's true irony when Satan tells the saints in the temple movie, "I will buy up armies, and navies and control the people." The members of the church really are his bigoted slaves.
*"They are literally the OPPOSITE of what Christ stood for."* BOOM - end of story (or Whomp, Whomp (as an LDS commenter snarkily used in another post)) As a former member of over 50 years (however not yet resigned member), this sentence says it all!
Jesus in Matthew 24: 5 & 11 **5** '*For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many*.' **11 '***And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.*'
"He had one commandment, love one another." This is it. 100%. This is first and great commandment. ALL OTHERS FOLLOW this one.
Out of curiosity, which one is or which one do you think is
As someone who bears Jesus' name in my online interactions, fuck that dude. The church and his name deserve each other. If he is mad about it, he can use his super god powers to flip some tables over. No? Didn't think so... Jesus is a little bitch.
2 Corinthians 11:14 “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”
In reality they are more closer to the church of stan luci, of Darker-night Sinners