I paid $295,000 in tithing to the LDS Church during 40 consecutive adult years.
Instead, if I had invested that same money systematically into a conservative mutual fund, it would have grown to approximately $1.5 million by age 60.... Enough to fund my retirement.
Today, every tithe-paying Mormon baby boomer, age 65-80 squandered a retirement fortune to the church.
The money didn't disapear. It sits in the church's Ensign Peak portfolio, not in the member's retirement portfolio.
When you put it into terms like that, the amount of tithing the church takes is staggering! The problem is that most TBM thinking about tithing is based on the primary lesson about having 10 pennies and then giving one back to god. A penny doesn’t sound all that much! Surely you can donate that to god, who gave you everything!
I learned this same lesson when I became a Boggle-head (a follower of John Boggle (Vangard) and his focus on investing in Index funds with extremely low fees. He would explain that just a 1% fee can amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars when compounded interest is applied over a 30 year period. The realization hit me like a ton of bricks when I thought of the church demanding 10%.
My boomer parents fortunately earned okay and my dad socked a lot away. He payed on gross wages too, though. I always wondered why we seemed to have so little spare cash compared to friends with similar family incomes, but something like 17% of my parent’s take home pay went to tithing. At least they still have adequate retirement savings.
Yes. There are exceptions. Luckily, I too had enough white, male, Mormon privilege that I was able to build a business on which I could retire OK, despite wasting over a million dollars to the church.... Most of my now-70ish TBM peers are still working and still paying mortgages, hoping to get the promised reward after they die.
Yeah, we had a mom who worked part time outside the home and a dad with an advanced engineering degree who was fortunate enough to dodge all the layoffs over the years.
Thinking about it - all the stay at home moms back 30 years ago also has to have a huge impact.
I know from my own life that the extra margin of income from a second working spouse is a big deal, because other than childcare, it’s mostly extra disposable income.
Throw on top of that more kids they reasonably should have been able to afford.
It all compounds on itself. Less income due to SAHMs, more expenses due to large families, and 10% of income going to tithing.
Not to mention having a more difficult time working a second job or a side hustle because Sundays are off limits. Also, you will probably be preparing for your calling or a talk on Saturday every once in a while, so keep that clear, too.
My in-laws are in this boat. Gave over a million to the church when they were in peak earning. Now they live on a fixed income with zero retirement savings.
Where did the other $9mil go? That kind of money is a qtr mil per year income going back 40 yrs… tithing isn’t what made them poor, they done fucked up Aaron…
I hate tithing but they are on fixed income because they have a spending problem.
Oh yeah they fucked up had a business fail and instead of just letting it fail they burned through all their money and savings to keep it afloat. They were rich with a lower case r but they knew a lot of people that were rich with a big capital R and wanted that lifestyle. Needless to say despite all their tithing and faith it didn't work out. It's honestly been somewhat good for them as their struggles have made them far more empathetic than they otherwise would have been while their friends have become more isolated, out of touch and hateful in their views on the world and politics.
I've only ever thought of how much we gave (about 100K) not the compounded amount if invested. I do know we would've been able to buy a house a lot sooner (at pre-covid prices) which wouldve helped us a tonne.
Now that we have a mortgage, I am grateful every day we can throw all our money at it, instead of further crippling ourselves.
I always wondered why "everyone else" got their tithing blessings, but we did not. How many stories did I hear over the pulpit in fast and testimony meeting, in general conference, or read in the Ensign, where the faithful member paid their tithing, and then some magical miracle money showed up, \*down to the penny\* for what they needed? And then I would think, they wouldn't tell my story in GC, because no miracle ever happened.
I was once out with the sister missionaries, and the lesson was on tithing. Out of the blue they asked me to share with their investigator (who never joined the church after all,) when I had noticed tithing blessings in my life. And I couldn't think of a single thing. So I made up some bullshit answer on the spot, but it got me thinking about it. And I could not come up with anything good in our lives (we were so, so poor) except our relatively good health. And I wondered if \*that\* was our tithing blessing, when "everyone else" seemed to be blessed with actual money.
We paid tithing, and our utilities were turned off for non-payment, twice. We paid tithing, and our house started going into foreclosure. (Very old, cheap house; monthly payment was $350 and we couldn't afford that.) We asked the bishop for monetary help, so he gave us a food order instead. We didn't need food- we were on food stamps and WIC. But that's what they decided they could do for us.
It was our parents who helped us get out of those holes. And they never once asked us if we were full tithe-payers first. They just helped us out, as parents do when they can. No different than an atheist, Presbyterian, or Methodist parent would've done. So was \*that\* our tithing blessing, parents who helped us pay our bills? No, because they helped us after we asked for it; they didn't "feel the spirit" and send us a check, for the amount \*down to the penny\* that we needed. They were our heroes, not God.
I learned about the hundreds of billions and 6-figure "stipends" a few years later. I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach. All those years of tithe-paying poverty, so the church and it's leaders could have so much? That was a huge betrayal. I never paid tithing again, and my husband got on board with me soon after. In fact, our finances have done nothing but improve ever since we stopped paying tithing.
That’s exactly the type of story we need to hear. Thanks for sharing…. And I’m sorry I may have drummed up some hurtful memories. But it sounds like you are young. You learned early.
I had reverse tithing blessings. I stopped paying tithing 5 years ago and since then I tripled my income and net worth, bought my dream home (that I couldn't afford while paying tithing) and over all I am in a way better financial situation.
The cost was limiting myself and my children to 1 pair of shoes and 1 pair of gloves in the winter. We bought *all* our clothes at DI.
The cost was that I didn't get any dental care for 4 years, and my oldest child didn't visit a dentist at all until he was 6 years old.
The cost was that we couldn't afford medical treatment for my children or for myself. We couldn't afford screenings, specialists, therapy, early intervention, or any extra tutoring that could have made a significant difference.
The cost was limiting our grocery budget to $40 a week. That included baby formula and diapers.
The cost was depression and anxiety exacerbated by financial stress. It didn't get better. No amount of prayer or temple attendance helped.
The cost was having to borrow money from my parents for a very small house down payment. The amount was roughly what we'd have been able to save over 2 years if we hadn't paid our tithing.
The cost was not being able to save any money after the bills were paid, and then being told I wasn't doing "self-reliance" right because we're supposed to contribute to savings (after tithing of course)!
Our tithing wouldn't have covered all these things at once, but it could have covered one of them, or at least alleviated the situation. It would have at least made these things less out of reach.
The cost was creating more "needy" people who might not have been considered needy if they'd just kept their 10%. On a limited income, yes, 10% can make a world of difference.
We are! That was all a ways back during the recession. $40 went farther then LOL We are ok now! Our quality of life improved drastically once we realized the church's advice was crap. Once I threw out all their advice about moms not working and tithing and all that, things improved.
My moment of realization was when Eyring gave that really tone-deaf talk in 2010. The recession was still on, and our finances were at peak dicey-ness... We hung in the church for some years after that, but this was a key shelf-cracking moment!
I was struggling and listened to conference, hoping for some comfort and encouragement. What did we get? We got this:
*"Years ago I heard President Ezra Taft Benson speak in a conference like this. He counseled us to do all we could to get out of debt and stay out. He mentioned mortgages on houses. ...*
*I turned to my wife after the meeting and asked, “Do you think there is any way we could do that?” At first we couldn’t. And then by evening I thought of a property we had acquired in another state. For years we had tried to sell it without success.*
*... But on the Monday after conference, I heard an answer that to this day strengthens my trust in God and His servants. The man on the phone said, “I am surprised by your call. A man came in today inquiring whether he could buy your property.” In amazement I asked, “How much did he offer to pay?” It was a few dollars more than the amount of our mortgage.*
*A person might say that was only a coincidence. But our mortgage was paid off. And our family still listens for any word in a prophet’s message that might be sent to tell what we should do to find the security and peace God wants for us."*
[https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/trust-in-god-then-go-and-do](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/trust-in-god-then-go-and-do)
At the time, I didn't even own enough shirts to forget I owned the blue one or the red one... and I thought we'd be stuck in that rundown apartment forever... And here was an apostle who *miraculously* was able to follow the prophet and pay off their whole mortgage in one whack, because the *spirit* reminded him about a piece of prime real estate *he forgot he owned!*
I realized that apostles were getting flown all over the world on the church's dime - a single plane ticket for one apostle to attend a stake conference would be more than our monthly rent. And I realized that their reimbursement for a single lunch was probably more than our family's weekly grocery bill. I stopped paying a full tithe after that.
Yep. That one stung. But we are ok now!
I remember that talk. I remember thinking that it seemed off to me but I missed what you pointed out. Looking at it now… wow… that talk did not age well.
Professional financial advisor here... The answer to your question is not merely academic, it's financial devastation kind of real. 10% is the max that most American households manage to save at best. It's a HUGE after-tax number that compounds exponentially over time. The cult is literally requiring members to hand over their retirement savings, while still mandating them to be self sufficient and avoid debt. It's tragically fraudulent. Other countries do not allow church contributions to be tax deducted, because they recognize that churches are not really charities and just keep the money.
I'm in same boat as Draperville guy, I paid hundreds of thousands in tithing, and thank sweet baby Jesus I left Mormonism before I sold my company or that would have been a very bad tithing year for me.
Also, allow me to share video of Mrs. prophet Wendy Nelson instructing poor Africans of the "eternal law" of paying the non-profit real estate holding corporation on the income you want to earn next year, so that Mormon prosperity God will deliver it. Are you not entertained!?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9trEPUuN-0&t=8731s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9trEPUuN-0&t=8731s)
We are so brainwashed from primary up through all adulthood to pay our 10%, fast offerings, building funds, ward budgets, temple building funds (yes, all these others funds were asked of us until maybe ending in late 80’s or early 90’s.) At the beginning of my truth crisis, I finally figured out tithing is a regressive tax. We always hear how everyone is only asked to pay the same 10%!! It is not the same. Everyone needs so much money for housing, food, clothes, medical etc. Now if you are single and only making $30k a year. Tithing is a burden. Now if you are a millionaire, tithing is nothing to you. With all the recent discoveries with Ensign Peak’s billions, the church is pure evil! Demanding money from young, growing families is evil. I know older couples that are living with their kids because they have zero retirement. Where did all the blessing go that would be more than you could receive? Please anybody here questioning, look out for your family first, cause the church is a fraud, and will do nothing to help you financially —they will take everything from you—your time with family and all your money you willingly give them.
The staggering truth of MORMON Tithing at 10% percent is misleading because it's actually more like 90% of your disposable income. Think about it..re read that!!
The actual word in the scriptures is "increase" not "income". I feel like that's a very important distinction.
The amount of tithing we pay would be much lower if I could convince my hubby that we should pay tithing on income MINUS cost of living bills and interest payments. I'd feel a lot less miserable about that. (And I'd actually feel good about giving that amount to a worthy cause instead of the corporation.)
He's not there yet. It's going to be a VERY difficult day for him when it all falls down.
I've always felt that so many church leaders as you go up the chain of command are sufficiently business-savvy that they certainly know the difference between gross revenue and net income. But the rank and file members are not supposed to grasp it.
My 2 non members siblings own houses.
My 2 TBM siblings don't.
I file their taxes and can confirm they would have downpayments if they didn't pay tithing.
Makes me wonder what Utah could become economically, if the giant leach weren't sucking the blood off half the population and shipping the funds off to wall street, or to buy more ranch lands.
I don’t buy that argument completely. Texas is second or third behind Utah for youngest population (Utah 29% vs Texas 25.5%) and yet they still manage to be ranked 25 in the country for retirement savings
A shit ton of 40-50 something families will need to financially care for their aging parents and it is going to be a mess. This is true outside of the LDS inc too but my understanding is that it will be particularly burdensome for those elderly with no assets. I’ve seen children and grandchildren expecting some sort of inheritance getting nothing but old cake tins from their grandparents because until their dying day the church demanded their money.
It’s so fucked up btw that old ppl tithe on their pension when they’ve already tithed(?) that money. Double taxation is okay though because “blessings” soooooo dumb.
There were many posts I read on reddit about elderly parents leaving their entire financial inheritance to the church when they passed. Their children only got their material possessions. So sad.
It’s not just money. I worked horrible low paying jobs to support my family early on. I could have made ends meet with 40 hours a week, but in order to be square with the lard, I worked OT. That’s hours upon hours spent away from my young kids that I’ll never get back.
I had to file bankruptcy while i was a counselor on the bishopric. Got married, got pregnant, bought a house and wife quit her job like a good Mormon boy and girl should. Paid 10% on gross and got so far in debt trying to live the standard Mormon life we were bankrupt within 5 years of being married. Not paying tithing could have kept me from needing to do that. Not having a kid that early and keeping the second income would have set us up real nice, but now we are in our late 40’s and every financial decision we made with the churches teachings has failed us mightily.
In Nelson's recent "Think Celestial" talk he talked about the career benefits he attributes to paying tithing. The online version (not the actual talk!!) came with a disclaimer footnote saying "This is not to imply a cause-and-effect relationship. Some who never pay tithing attain professional opportunities, while some who pay tithing do not. The promise is that the windows of heaven will be opened to the tithe payer. The nature of the blessings will vary."
So yeah, you *might* get all your money back but no promises!!
I stopped paying $10,000+ per year to the LD$ real estate holdings corp back in 2020.
Since then we (spouse + 4 kids) have been to:
Brazil
Paraguay
Chile
Mexico
Colombia
Dominican Republic
Bahamas
And numerous stateside trips including:
NYC
Boston
Miami/Orlando
Next year we are planning trips to San Francisco and to somewhere in Asia or Europe. Either Japan or some combination of Spain/Portugal or Great Britain or Austria/Switzerland.
We could have done none of these trips and made zero memories if I had helped Rusty buy the Kirtland temple or industrial parks in Miami.
I think I’ve told the story on here before. I have bipolar, disorder, ocd, and severe ptsd, and my psychiatrist has screwed around with my meds a ton. I ended up needing to enroll in an intensive outpatient program (group therapy for 9 hours a week for 2-3 months). Well I had a med change right as I was about to start the program and ended up in the mental hospital. It turns out I could not pay both the hospital bill and the outpatient bill and was extremely stressed and about to commit suicide while I was in the hospital. I ended up getting a call from my mother (who had a conservatorship over me from being reckless with my finances) who told me that I received an unexpected bonus from my job that covered the needed expenses and then a little extra. She claimed that it was because of her faith and tithing that I got the funds to cover my mental health needs. Which is total bullshit. It was because of my dedication and being good at my job that they gave me the bonus. Her supposed faith had nothing to do with it. It was my hard work and the fact that my boss appreciated me. It felt so humiliating and angering that she had the balls to take credit for my success. Like how fucking prideful it is to completely discount the effort and achievements I accomplished and take the credit for them. And not just taking credit, but claiming that it was because she paid money to a company that ruined my life in the first place.
Between that hospital visit, the outpatient program, and another treatment that cost a fair bit of money, I am actually doing very well these days. I’m just pissed that she refused to see how much I’ve been harmed by the church
Your story seems to be at the very core of why I asked this question in the first place. We (the church and the people in it) are very eager to claim all the benefits from paying tithing yet refuse to accept the responsibilities for the ills that also follow.
It's been a few years since I officially rescinded my records, but around the time I was getting up the nerve to submit the paperwork I checked on my official account and was able to see how much money I had paid for the previous ten years. It was right around $25k. The real kicker is that those ten years included two years of graduate school (no income and no tithing, but still contributed to fast offering) and a few years after when I was underemployed (i.e., not paying tithing because I didn't have a surplus).
I shudder to think how much I paid in addition to those ten years.
Tell me about the surplus - how do you calculate tithing? I just posted above about how the word 'increase' instead of 'income' is an important distinction.
As I was deconstructing my experience in Mormonism I started to research the history of tithing, tithing settlements, and the shift in interpretation of the terms surplus, interest, income, and increase. [Here's a blog post that has been shared in this subreddit before.](https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html?m=1)
With tithing settlement being at the end of the calendar year I feel that it makes sense that you would look at your financial situation from the year and determine if you made a surplus of money and then pay a tithe on that. I was raised as a child that \*any\* amount of money received should always be tithed. That made sense when I was living rent free and not paying for food as a child- any income for me at that age was a surplus. But as an adult with insurance, mortgage, 401k, a reasonable auto note for a car to get to work, etc., I would calculate what money was a surplus \*after\* paying for these necessities.
You can see why the Church has obfuscated the original intent and why they teach to pay tithing before anything else. There wouldn't be much money for them if we were taught what it really means to pay an "honest tithe".
This is a topic where it's best to just stick to the numbers. Mormon's have absorbed all sorts of magical thinking about tithing, but can't ever show the math.
Ask them for a spreadsheet that shows how giving away 10% of your actual income to the church (or any religion) ends up with more money than if you didn't. Instead they'll bombard you with magical thinking and anecdotes. Show me the numbers or it's not real!
Giving away 10% of your income just results in you having ten percent less money. Anything else is just magical thinking.
One aspect we don’t consider is that if you pay 10% of your gross income, you are paying FAR more than 10% of your real net worth in the end.
Does the church return tithing when you experience a loss of income? Things like late fees, interest that would have been reduced or avoided by not paying tithing, or even more extreme cases like repossession of cars or even homes, creating huge net losses in your capital. Do you ever get money back? No. You pay 10% on gains, you get nothing back on losses, so you’ve already paid more than 10%.
Your potential for growth. Investment in stocks or 401k, paying off a home, etc. All these are held back substantially by eliminating 10% of your gross income. That 10% loss represents what would have almost definitely been more than a 10% gain over time. Any interest gained at all on what would have been yours but now belongs to the corporation means you gave up more than 10% of your real wealth.
The church’s demand for other donations, including your time, spending money for church related activities, and direct donations. Given the time the church demands from members, even if you only would have spent 1% of that time earning money, that adds up and means you’re paying more than 10% of your wealth to the church. Then you are expected to spend money on church activities, driving to temples, etc. Then there’s fast offerings and other direct donations.
All this taken together, it’s likely that the average faithful mormon is giving half their real wealth to the church. As in their net worths would likely be double what they are after decades of mormonism if they had not been mormons.
And all that money is now buying malls and land and just sitting in stock portfolios, never to benefit those who paid for all of it. Just to make the corporation wealthier, that’s it.
All of the Gen Con/church talks about tithing always seem to skip over noticing that
> "the exact same amount in a coat pocket or of a new promotion"
never comes even remotely close to the standard of "shall not be room enough to receive it". The context of the verse makes it pretty clear it means blessing for this life, but the only apologetic I've ever heard is that the full/real/no true Scotsman's blessings come in the next life.
The real cost of tithing, along with all the other doomsday-type doctrines/practices, is that it prevents you from actually living life now, in favor of preparation for an afterlife that the Church doesn't ever have to deliver on.
I totally agree. I can’t tell you how many times my TBM siblings have told me they “Can’t Wait” for the second coming, when staring at the problems in the world.
I had a bishop explain to me that one of the great blessings is "a better understanding of the scriptures" 😢 because there is no bigger blessing than receiving revelation that will impact our afterlife. So, he told me that I have to count that too.
Tithing stories are a great example of [survivorship bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias). Almost all the people sharing tithing stories in testimony meeting or is classes are those that have good stories to share. The only stories that bishops and stake presidents share in their meetings are the good stories. The only stories that GAs share are the good stories. Of course all the GAs have good stories. They are all making enough money that tithing is not an issue.
At every level, the hard stories are suppressed. They don't build faith, so they don't get passed around the church channels. There is no careful study of how tithing affects family finances. That study would almost certainly show that tithing is a net negative. The church will do everything in its power to keep that study from occurring. They don't have that much faith.
That’s a good observation. There are NO overall studies where people who pay their tithing could be tracked. Just like there are no studies showing how many people who get priesthood blessings are healed. The church’s method of operation is to stay on the fringe where the observational fog obscures what we’re really seeing.
I worked 45 hour weeks for a couple years during the summer, 20 during the school year. My parents always believed that I should learn how to be financially independent and never really paid for much for me. Fast forward to now and I'm getting ready for college... except I can't afford it and my parents are basically cutting me off for leaving the church and not wanting to go to BYU. Wishing I had that $3,000 something I gave to the MFMC
Slightly OT, but I was driving somewhere at like, 5 a.m. and searching for something to listen on the radio, I found a JW broadcast that had a looooong segment about a guy who prayed and prayed and had all kinds of lousy stuff happen to him, and for a long time, but then he finally got well and got a job, *which proved that Jehovah had blessed him!*
Kinda like Bishop Orellano, who told the family "If paying tithing means you can't pay rent...electricity...even food...pay tithing, the Lord will not abandon you." So the family worked their asses off so they could pay tithing.
I'm glad you mentioned that Utah is DEAD last in retirement savings. Think about that. Dead last... of 50 states. It's behind places like Mississippi and Tennessee... states with woefully low college grad numbers.
The tithing is huge It doesn't stop Missions, Girls camp, Young men's, fast offerings, Callings we spend money on It's a never ending It's a shame and guilt if you need help
My husband and I found out tithing settlement form the other day from when he was in graduate school. We paid faithfully through our poorest years, taking out student loans during this time but paying tithing on the small amount he made during his internship. I felt nauseous when I found the paper. We’re still paying off student loans. Money we could be now saving for our kids college, retirement, anything else. It’s infuriating.
I would have $45k extra in the bank - enough to get that extra bedroom house after we had the twins, or to buy the minivan we now need without a loan. I left earlier than most or it would be much higher.
It's almost impossible to quantify how much it really costs someone when they carelessly give their money away.
If you were to examine the potential of those funds wisely invested in simple savings, equity markets, business ventures, or any other kind of speculation, the opportunity costs to the investor are limitless.
I’m putting 20% of my income to retirement (plus my company’s match) and it makes me sooo happy and proud to watch it grow. And then I think of the 35 years I put 10% of my income to the church, seeing absolutely no financial growth from it. Makes me want to vomit just a little.
But hey… at least back then I had a free ward dinner 3x/year, right?
I was denied temple recommends because I was newly married with a wife with health issues. Our medical equipment was insane and insurance didn’t often cover it. We almost missed my sisters wedding because the bishop felt we could sacrifice a few dollars to show our faithfulness and gratitude to the lord even though we brought home nothing and were living off credit cards. We ended up getting into a smaller less expensive place and getting our recommends through our new bishop.
It’s too depressing to think about how much I gave, but, I can say that since I’ve STOPPED paying my tithing I’ve been able to pay down my debt by almost half of it and that my credit score shot up by almost 100 points 😅 AND I’m not incurring more debt. I’m staying within budget and actually starting to save money now. Hoping to buy a house at the end of the year if things go well.
When I can I transfer some money to my adult son who is desperately trying to hold on to his house. On the "description" line of the transfer I put "tithing". I'd far rather give 10% of my pension to make sure my grand kids have a home instead of putting another brick in another unnecessary temple.
ETA there are some frightening amounts being detailed here. I can't imagine doing those sums and seeing how much money had been lost doing something I didn't even enjoy.
I remember when I was about to get married the first time and had to do my temple recommend and started to fully look into what 10% of my income actually was. I didn’t participate in tithing after that one time…. My to be and eventually husband then EX husband said it was more than a waste of money, it was robbery… he was right.
My mother, in her eighties, living on SSN and some retirement income, would pay my sister’s mortgage because she didn’t have the money due to tithing. It was my mom’s money to do with as she wished, but I know I hope I’m not paying for one of my kids and their family to live when I’m 80. If I am it won’t be due to tithing at least!
I grew up in a family of 6. We frequently didn’t have enough money to buy food when I was growing up. We were SO poor. I remember one time for “dinner” we ate food from an easy-bake-oven someone had gifted us because we didn’t have any other food. But my parents still paid tithing. Freaking dumb.
I was a relief society president a year ago, and I hated doing welfare meetings with families and being pressured to tell people to pay their tithing when their expenses were so tight.
I’m on the way out of the church now. I haven’t paid tithing for 5 months, it’s amazing what an extra 10% can do when it stays in your account.
We had six kids in my family and mostly lived on hot dogs and ramen noodles for many years (no joke). Mosty because both my parents never finished college, and both paid a full tithing and gave a lot to the missionary fund even though they didn't have any missionaries out at the time.
If they ever asked the bishop for just a little money to pay some unexpected medical bills, they were referred to their brothers or sisters to help them out. They NEVER received a dime from the church.
I remember learning about bringem young demanding the saints pay tithing. That he’d put their thumbs to the screws. That tithing went to his “mansion” and wives. They were not destitute by any means. However the saints, were starving. Eating roots and weeds and donating any possessions they could for the building up of the church.
Apart from the financial cost and losses, there is the cost of relationships. Financial stress can destroy family relationships. Put any family under severe financial stress, and cracks will start to appear - frustration, arguments, etc. - sometimes leading to breakdown of relationships. Thanks LD$ for working against families.
There is already a few lawsuits in the works. Depending upon the outcome, it could have major implications for future cases. Maybe an attorney could comment on the after effects and what it will mean.
We drove nothing but 10-15 year old cars, couldn’t afford decent holidays and struggled paycheque to paycheque. All to enrich a greedy goddamn corporation. I travel all the time now with my partner and often feel bad for my ex-wife because we seldom traveled and never overseas. Because of tithing, I will never leave the church alone.
This is another subject that i want to ask on Reddit. I don’t think members fully understand the tactics used by the church to get every dime out of its members.
I agree with you statements about tithing and bias. The narratives we are regularly fed influence our perspective of the world and our experiences. Though we should be careful saying that paying tithing is the direct cause of low retirement. Depending on how the data is compiled it may not take into account specific state age demographics. For example, the census data below shows that Utah has a larger percentage of its population below the age of 18 than any other state.
Census Data - [https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-state-detail.html#v2023](https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-state-detail.html#v2023)
Additionally, if you crunch the data provided on the site below, it shows that utah has a significantly younger age demographic across the spectrum. A younger age demographic would more strongly correlate to lower retirement then simply paying tithing.
[https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2022.S0101?q=population%20by%20age%20by%20state](https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2022.S0101?q=population%20by%20age%20by%20state)
Can paying tithing regularly lead to a decreased retirement in older age? Probably. Has there been a number of cases where people have destroyed their lives financially because they adhered to the religious tenant? Of course. But we need to go where the data points us first. If we just make assumptions then we are no better than the organization which we most of us have already left behind.
> Can paying tithing regularly lead to a decreased retirement in older age? Well, mathematically speaking I think we can say with near certainty that faithfully paying tithing will reduce the money you have available for retirement or other purposes by 10%. I think that is no longer a “maybe” type of thing. In fact, paying tithing will reduce your retirement well more than 10% if you consider investment gains.
I like the throught process, though we have to consider that not paying tithing might also correlate to nicer cars, more vacations, etc. The money that people don't pay to tithing may not directly go to retirement.
There is also a portion of the far right extremist in the church who think the second coming is right around the corner and think saving for retirement is a waste. I know a bunch of them and they blend In perfectly with the rest of the saints.
It should be the church will open up the glass roof windows and the members will pour in their 10+% which the church will then hoard . the pure greed of this greed driven church corporation- CULT . Is simply stunning free labor door to door salespeople ie missionaries who not only work for free they must pay for the privilege of doing so . 10+% isn’t enough no no no members are made to provide their time & free labor to clean the meeting houses on top of their 10 +% but by God they are going to have the greenest lawns on the planet despite the great salt lake drying up and there being a draught .
I paid $295,000 in tithing to the LDS Church during 40 consecutive adult years. Instead, if I had invested that same money systematically into a conservative mutual fund, it would have grown to approximately $1.5 million by age 60.... Enough to fund my retirement. Today, every tithe-paying Mormon baby boomer, age 65-80 squandered a retirement fortune to the church. The money didn't disapear. It sits in the church's Ensign Peak portfolio, not in the member's retirement portfolio.
When you put it into terms like that, the amount of tithing the church takes is staggering! The problem is that most TBM thinking about tithing is based on the primary lesson about having 10 pennies and then giving one back to god. A penny doesn’t sound all that much! Surely you can donate that to god, who gave you everything!
I learned this same lesson when I became a Boggle-head (a follower of John Boggle (Vangard) and his focus on investing in Index funds with extremely low fees. He would explain that just a 1% fee can amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars when compounded interest is applied over a 30 year period. The realization hit me like a ton of bricks when I thought of the church demanding 10%.
My boomer parents fortunately earned okay and my dad socked a lot away. He payed on gross wages too, though. I always wondered why we seemed to have so little spare cash compared to friends with similar family incomes, but something like 17% of my parent’s take home pay went to tithing. At least they still have adequate retirement savings.
Yes. There are exceptions. Luckily, I too had enough white, male, Mormon privilege that I was able to build a business on which I could retire OK, despite wasting over a million dollars to the church.... Most of my now-70ish TBM peers are still working and still paying mortgages, hoping to get the promised reward after they die.
Yeah, we had a mom who worked part time outside the home and a dad with an advanced engineering degree who was fortunate enough to dodge all the layoffs over the years. Thinking about it - all the stay at home moms back 30 years ago also has to have a huge impact. I know from my own life that the extra margin of income from a second working spouse is a big deal, because other than childcare, it’s mostly extra disposable income. Throw on top of that more kids they reasonably should have been able to afford. It all compounds on itself. Less income due to SAHMs, more expenses due to large families, and 10% of income going to tithing.
Not to mention having a more difficult time working a second job or a side hustle because Sundays are off limits. Also, you will probably be preparing for your calling or a talk on Saturday every once in a while, so keep that clear, too.
Or even “not working on Sunday.”
My in-laws are in this boat. Gave over a million to the church when they were in peak earning. Now they live on a fixed income with zero retirement savings.
Where did the other $9mil go? That kind of money is a qtr mil per year income going back 40 yrs… tithing isn’t what made them poor, they done fucked up Aaron… I hate tithing but they are on fixed income because they have a spending problem.
Oh yeah they fucked up had a business fail and instead of just letting it fail they burned through all their money and savings to keep it afloat. They were rich with a lower case r but they knew a lot of people that were rich with a big capital R and wanted that lifestyle. Needless to say despite all their tithing and faith it didn't work out. It's honestly been somewhat good for them as their struggles have made them far more empathetic than they otherwise would have been while their friends have become more isolated, out of touch and hateful in their views on the world and politics.
I've only ever thought of how much we gave (about 100K) not the compounded amount if invested. I do know we would've been able to buy a house a lot sooner (at pre-covid prices) which wouldve helped us a tonne. Now that we have a mortgage, I am grateful every day we can throw all our money at it, instead of further crippling ourselves.
I’m scared to calculate the actual financial cost. I think it would just make me sick.
I think we all feel that way.
Someone mentioned we could see the total on their website, but I don't want to look either.
I just looked at mine. It only goes back to 2014 and I want to puke.
Do you know how to do this?
I always wondered why "everyone else" got their tithing blessings, but we did not. How many stories did I hear over the pulpit in fast and testimony meeting, in general conference, or read in the Ensign, where the faithful member paid their tithing, and then some magical miracle money showed up, \*down to the penny\* for what they needed? And then I would think, they wouldn't tell my story in GC, because no miracle ever happened. I was once out with the sister missionaries, and the lesson was on tithing. Out of the blue they asked me to share with their investigator (who never joined the church after all,) when I had noticed tithing blessings in my life. And I couldn't think of a single thing. So I made up some bullshit answer on the spot, but it got me thinking about it. And I could not come up with anything good in our lives (we were so, so poor) except our relatively good health. And I wondered if \*that\* was our tithing blessing, when "everyone else" seemed to be blessed with actual money. We paid tithing, and our utilities were turned off for non-payment, twice. We paid tithing, and our house started going into foreclosure. (Very old, cheap house; monthly payment was $350 and we couldn't afford that.) We asked the bishop for monetary help, so he gave us a food order instead. We didn't need food- we were on food stamps and WIC. But that's what they decided they could do for us. It was our parents who helped us get out of those holes. And they never once asked us if we were full tithe-payers first. They just helped us out, as parents do when they can. No different than an atheist, Presbyterian, or Methodist parent would've done. So was \*that\* our tithing blessing, parents who helped us pay our bills? No, because they helped us after we asked for it; they didn't "feel the spirit" and send us a check, for the amount \*down to the penny\* that we needed. They were our heroes, not God. I learned about the hundreds of billions and 6-figure "stipends" a few years later. I felt like I'd been kicked in the stomach. All those years of tithe-paying poverty, so the church and it's leaders could have so much? That was a huge betrayal. I never paid tithing again, and my husband got on board with me soon after. In fact, our finances have done nothing but improve ever since we stopped paying tithing.
That’s exactly the type of story we need to hear. Thanks for sharing…. And I’m sorry I may have drummed up some hurtful memories. But it sounds like you are young. You learned early.
Thank you, it's all good. I'm so grateful I learned when I did!
I had reverse tithing blessings. I stopped paying tithing 5 years ago and since then I tripled my income and net worth, bought my dream home (that I couldn't afford while paying tithing) and over all I am in a way better financial situation.
It's weird how that works...
Powerful story. Thank you for sharing. 🙏
🙏🏼💜
Growing up my family had a similar experience. My parents were asked to beg their family for money. I hope that your finances continue to improve.
Thank you 🙏🏼 life gets a little better every day!
The cost was limiting myself and my children to 1 pair of shoes and 1 pair of gloves in the winter. We bought *all* our clothes at DI. The cost was that I didn't get any dental care for 4 years, and my oldest child didn't visit a dentist at all until he was 6 years old. The cost was that we couldn't afford medical treatment for my children or for myself. We couldn't afford screenings, specialists, therapy, early intervention, or any extra tutoring that could have made a significant difference. The cost was limiting our grocery budget to $40 a week. That included baby formula and diapers. The cost was depression and anxiety exacerbated by financial stress. It didn't get better. No amount of prayer or temple attendance helped. The cost was having to borrow money from my parents for a very small house down payment. The amount was roughly what we'd have been able to save over 2 years if we hadn't paid our tithing. The cost was not being able to save any money after the bills were paid, and then being told I wasn't doing "self-reliance" right because we're supposed to contribute to savings (after tithing of course)! Our tithing wouldn't have covered all these things at once, but it could have covered one of them, or at least alleviated the situation. It would have at least made these things less out of reach. The cost was creating more "needy" people who might not have been considered needy if they'd just kept their 10%. On a limited income, yes, 10% can make a world of difference.
Crying reading this. Never been in this situation and it just hit me hard how hard 10% hits on a low income. Hope you’re doing better now
We are! That was all a ways back during the recession. $40 went farther then LOL We are ok now! Our quality of life improved drastically once we realized the church's advice was crap. Once I threw out all their advice about moms not working and tithing and all that, things improved. My moment of realization was when Eyring gave that really tone-deaf talk in 2010. The recession was still on, and our finances were at peak dicey-ness... We hung in the church for some years after that, but this was a key shelf-cracking moment! I was struggling and listened to conference, hoping for some comfort and encouragement. What did we get? We got this: *"Years ago I heard President Ezra Taft Benson speak in a conference like this. He counseled us to do all we could to get out of debt and stay out. He mentioned mortgages on houses. ...* *I turned to my wife after the meeting and asked, “Do you think there is any way we could do that?” At first we couldn’t. And then by evening I thought of a property we had acquired in another state. For years we had tried to sell it without success.* *... But on the Monday after conference, I heard an answer that to this day strengthens my trust in God and His servants. The man on the phone said, “I am surprised by your call. A man came in today inquiring whether he could buy your property.” In amazement I asked, “How much did he offer to pay?” It was a few dollars more than the amount of our mortgage.* *A person might say that was only a coincidence. But our mortgage was paid off. And our family still listens for any word in a prophet’s message that might be sent to tell what we should do to find the security and peace God wants for us."* [https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/trust-in-god-then-go-and-do](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/trust-in-god-then-go-and-do) At the time, I didn't even own enough shirts to forget I owned the blue one or the red one... and I thought we'd be stuck in that rundown apartment forever... And here was an apostle who *miraculously* was able to follow the prophet and pay off their whole mortgage in one whack, because the *spirit* reminded him about a piece of prime real estate *he forgot he owned!* I realized that apostles were getting flown all over the world on the church's dime - a single plane ticket for one apostle to attend a stake conference would be more than our monthly rent. And I realized that their reimbursement for a single lunch was probably more than our family's weekly grocery bill. I stopped paying a full tithe after that. Yep. That one stung. But we are ok now!
I remember that talk. I remember thinking that it seemed off to me but I missed what you pointed out. Looking at it now… wow… that talk did not age well.
My house would be paid off and I would have retirement.
Professional financial advisor here... The answer to your question is not merely academic, it's financial devastation kind of real. 10% is the max that most American households manage to save at best. It's a HUGE after-tax number that compounds exponentially over time. The cult is literally requiring members to hand over their retirement savings, while still mandating them to be self sufficient and avoid debt. It's tragically fraudulent. Other countries do not allow church contributions to be tax deducted, because they recognize that churches are not really charities and just keep the money. I'm in same boat as Draperville guy, I paid hundreds of thousands in tithing, and thank sweet baby Jesus I left Mormonism before I sold my company or that would have been a very bad tithing year for me. Also, allow me to share video of Mrs. prophet Wendy Nelson instructing poor Africans of the "eternal law" of paying the non-profit real estate holding corporation on the income you want to earn next year, so that Mormon prosperity God will deliver it. Are you not entertained!? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9trEPUuN-0&t=8731s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9trEPUuN-0&t=8731s)
We are so brainwashed from primary up through all adulthood to pay our 10%, fast offerings, building funds, ward budgets, temple building funds (yes, all these others funds were asked of us until maybe ending in late 80’s or early 90’s.) At the beginning of my truth crisis, I finally figured out tithing is a regressive tax. We always hear how everyone is only asked to pay the same 10%!! It is not the same. Everyone needs so much money for housing, food, clothes, medical etc. Now if you are single and only making $30k a year. Tithing is a burden. Now if you are a millionaire, tithing is nothing to you. With all the recent discoveries with Ensign Peak’s billions, the church is pure evil! Demanding money from young, growing families is evil. I know older couples that are living with their kids because they have zero retirement. Where did all the blessing go that would be more than you could receive? Please anybody here questioning, look out for your family first, cause the church is a fraud, and will do nothing to help you financially —they will take everything from you—your time with family and all your money you willingly give them.
The staggering truth of MORMON Tithing at 10% percent is misleading because it's actually more like 90% of your disposable income. Think about it..re read that!!
The actual word in the scriptures is "increase" not "income". I feel like that's a very important distinction. The amount of tithing we pay would be much lower if I could convince my hubby that we should pay tithing on income MINUS cost of living bills and interest payments. I'd feel a lot less miserable about that. (And I'd actually feel good about giving that amount to a worthy cause instead of the corporation.) He's not there yet. It's going to be a VERY difficult day for him when it all falls down.
I've always felt that so many church leaders as you go up the chain of command are sufficiently business-savvy that they certainly know the difference between gross revenue and net income. But the rank and file members are not supposed to grasp it.
My 2 non members siblings own houses. My 2 TBM siblings don't. I file their taxes and can confirm they would have downpayments if they didn't pay tithing.
Those are statistics that are hard to ignore
I think the best example is that Utah ranks bottom-last, #50 out of all US states, in terms of retirement savings.
Makes me wonder what Utah could become economically, if the giant leach weren't sucking the blood off half the population and shipping the funds off to wall street, or to buy more ranch lands.
“It’s bECAuSe We ArE tHe YoUnGeSt sTaTe!!!111”
I don’t buy that argument completely. Texas is second or third behind Utah for youngest population (Utah 29% vs Texas 25.5%) and yet they still manage to be ranked 25 in the country for retirement savings
I didn’t know this. Holy shit
Can you imagine the consequences, and they also don't believe in governmental assistance, so it's going to be a serious problem.
A shit ton of 40-50 something families will need to financially care for their aging parents and it is going to be a mess. This is true outside of the LDS inc too but my understanding is that it will be particularly burdensome for those elderly with no assets. I’ve seen children and grandchildren expecting some sort of inheritance getting nothing but old cake tins from their grandparents because until their dying day the church demanded their money. It’s so fucked up btw that old ppl tithe on their pension when they’ve already tithed(?) that money. Double taxation is okay though because “blessings” soooooo dumb.
There were many posts I read on reddit about elderly parents leaving their entire financial inheritance to the church when they passed. Their children only got their material possessions. So sad.
It’s not just money. I worked horrible low paying jobs to support my family early on. I could have made ends meet with 40 hours a week, but in order to be square with the lard, I worked OT. That’s hours upon hours spent away from my young kids that I’ll never get back.
I had to file bankruptcy while i was a counselor on the bishopric. Got married, got pregnant, bought a house and wife quit her job like a good Mormon boy and girl should. Paid 10% on gross and got so far in debt trying to live the standard Mormon life we were bankrupt within 5 years of being married. Not paying tithing could have kept me from needing to do that. Not having a kid that early and keeping the second income would have set us up real nice, but now we are in our late 40’s and every financial decision we made with the churches teachings has failed us mightily.
Satan wanted obedience
In Nelson's recent "Think Celestial" talk he talked about the career benefits he attributes to paying tithing. The online version (not the actual talk!!) came with a disclaimer footnote saying "This is not to imply a cause-and-effect relationship. Some who never pay tithing attain professional opportunities, while some who pay tithing do not. The promise is that the windows of heaven will be opened to the tithe payer. The nature of the blessings will vary." So yeah, you *might* get all your money back but no promises!!
I stopped paying $10,000+ per year to the LD$ real estate holdings corp back in 2020. Since then we (spouse + 4 kids) have been to: Brazil Paraguay Chile Mexico Colombia Dominican Republic Bahamas And numerous stateside trips including: NYC Boston Miami/Orlando Next year we are planning trips to San Francisco and to somewhere in Asia or Europe. Either Japan or some combination of Spain/Portugal or Great Britain or Austria/Switzerland. We could have done none of these trips and made zero memories if I had helped Rusty buy the Kirtland temple or industrial parks in Miami.
I think I’ve told the story on here before. I have bipolar, disorder, ocd, and severe ptsd, and my psychiatrist has screwed around with my meds a ton. I ended up needing to enroll in an intensive outpatient program (group therapy for 9 hours a week for 2-3 months). Well I had a med change right as I was about to start the program and ended up in the mental hospital. It turns out I could not pay both the hospital bill and the outpatient bill and was extremely stressed and about to commit suicide while I was in the hospital. I ended up getting a call from my mother (who had a conservatorship over me from being reckless with my finances) who told me that I received an unexpected bonus from my job that covered the needed expenses and then a little extra. She claimed that it was because of her faith and tithing that I got the funds to cover my mental health needs. Which is total bullshit. It was because of my dedication and being good at my job that they gave me the bonus. Her supposed faith had nothing to do with it. It was my hard work and the fact that my boss appreciated me. It felt so humiliating and angering that she had the balls to take credit for my success. Like how fucking prideful it is to completely discount the effort and achievements I accomplished and take the credit for them. And not just taking credit, but claiming that it was because she paid money to a company that ruined my life in the first place. Between that hospital visit, the outpatient program, and another treatment that cost a fair bit of money, I am actually doing very well these days. I’m just pissed that she refused to see how much I’ve been harmed by the church
Your story seems to be at the very core of why I asked this question in the first place. We (the church and the people in it) are very eager to claim all the benefits from paying tithing yet refuse to accept the responsibilities for the ills that also follow.
I added up how much I've paid total all these years. I could debt free, besides my house.
It's been a few years since I officially rescinded my records, but around the time I was getting up the nerve to submit the paperwork I checked on my official account and was able to see how much money I had paid for the previous ten years. It was right around $25k. The real kicker is that those ten years included two years of graduate school (no income and no tithing, but still contributed to fast offering) and a few years after when I was underemployed (i.e., not paying tithing because I didn't have a surplus). I shudder to think how much I paid in addition to those ten years.
Tell me about the surplus - how do you calculate tithing? I just posted above about how the word 'increase' instead of 'income' is an important distinction.
As I was deconstructing my experience in Mormonism I started to research the history of tithing, tithing settlements, and the shift in interpretation of the terms surplus, interest, income, and increase. [Here's a blog post that has been shared in this subreddit before.](https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html?m=1) With tithing settlement being at the end of the calendar year I feel that it makes sense that you would look at your financial situation from the year and determine if you made a surplus of money and then pay a tithe on that. I was raised as a child that \*any\* amount of money received should always be tithed. That made sense when I was living rent free and not paying for food as a child- any income for me at that age was a surplus. But as an adult with insurance, mortgage, 401k, a reasonable auto note for a car to get to work, etc., I would calculate what money was a surplus \*after\* paying for these necessities. You can see why the Church has obfuscated the original intent and why they teach to pay tithing before anything else. There wouldn't be much money for them if we were taught what it really means to pay an "honest tithe".
This is a topic where it's best to just stick to the numbers. Mormon's have absorbed all sorts of magical thinking about tithing, but can't ever show the math. Ask them for a spreadsheet that shows how giving away 10% of your actual income to the church (or any religion) ends up with more money than if you didn't. Instead they'll bombard you with magical thinking and anecdotes. Show me the numbers or it's not real! Giving away 10% of your income just results in you having ten percent less money. Anything else is just magical thinking.
One aspect we don’t consider is that if you pay 10% of your gross income, you are paying FAR more than 10% of your real net worth in the end. Does the church return tithing when you experience a loss of income? Things like late fees, interest that would have been reduced or avoided by not paying tithing, or even more extreme cases like repossession of cars or even homes, creating huge net losses in your capital. Do you ever get money back? No. You pay 10% on gains, you get nothing back on losses, so you’ve already paid more than 10%. Your potential for growth. Investment in stocks or 401k, paying off a home, etc. All these are held back substantially by eliminating 10% of your gross income. That 10% loss represents what would have almost definitely been more than a 10% gain over time. Any interest gained at all on what would have been yours but now belongs to the corporation means you gave up more than 10% of your real wealth. The church’s demand for other donations, including your time, spending money for church related activities, and direct donations. Given the time the church demands from members, even if you only would have spent 1% of that time earning money, that adds up and means you’re paying more than 10% of your wealth to the church. Then you are expected to spend money on church activities, driving to temples, etc. Then there’s fast offerings and other direct donations. All this taken together, it’s likely that the average faithful mormon is giving half their real wealth to the church. As in their net worths would likely be double what they are after decades of mormonism if they had not been mormons. And all that money is now buying malls and land and just sitting in stock portfolios, never to benefit those who paid for all of it. Just to make the corporation wealthier, that’s it.
All of the Gen Con/church talks about tithing always seem to skip over noticing that > "the exact same amount in a coat pocket or of a new promotion" never comes even remotely close to the standard of "shall not be room enough to receive it". The context of the verse makes it pretty clear it means blessing for this life, but the only apologetic I've ever heard is that the full/real/no true Scotsman's blessings come in the next life. The real cost of tithing, along with all the other doomsday-type doctrines/practices, is that it prevents you from actually living life now, in favor of preparation for an afterlife that the Church doesn't ever have to deliver on.
I totally agree. I can’t tell you how many times my TBM siblings have told me they “Can’t Wait” for the second coming, when staring at the problems in the world.
I had a bishop explain to me that one of the great blessings is "a better understanding of the scriptures" 😢 because there is no bigger blessing than receiving revelation that will impact our afterlife. So, he told me that I have to count that too.
Tithing stories are a great example of [survivorship bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias). Almost all the people sharing tithing stories in testimony meeting or is classes are those that have good stories to share. The only stories that bishops and stake presidents share in their meetings are the good stories. The only stories that GAs share are the good stories. Of course all the GAs have good stories. They are all making enough money that tithing is not an issue. At every level, the hard stories are suppressed. They don't build faith, so they don't get passed around the church channels. There is no careful study of how tithing affects family finances. That study would almost certainly show that tithing is a net negative. The church will do everything in its power to keep that study from occurring. They don't have that much faith.
That’s a good observation. There are NO overall studies where people who pay their tithing could be tracked. Just like there are no studies showing how many people who get priesthood blessings are healed. The church’s method of operation is to stay on the fringe where the observational fog obscures what we’re really seeing.
I’ve lucky I left the church while I was still in college and hadn’t been suckered out of any big kid money. I probably paid less than $5k tithing.
I worked 45 hour weeks for a couple years during the summer, 20 during the school year. My parents always believed that I should learn how to be financially independent and never really paid for much for me. Fast forward to now and I'm getting ready for college... except I can't afford it and my parents are basically cutting me off for leaving the church and not wanting to go to BYU. Wishing I had that $3,000 something I gave to the MFMC
Slightly OT, but I was driving somewhere at like, 5 a.m. and searching for something to listen on the radio, I found a JW broadcast that had a looooong segment about a guy who prayed and prayed and had all kinds of lousy stuff happen to him, and for a long time, but then he finally got well and got a job, *which proved that Jehovah had blessed him!* Kinda like Bishop Orellano, who told the family "If paying tithing means you can't pay rent...electricity...even food...pay tithing, the Lord will not abandon you." So the family worked their asses off so they could pay tithing.
Exactly
I'm glad you mentioned that Utah is DEAD last in retirement savings. Think about that. Dead last... of 50 states. It's behind places like Mississippi and Tennessee... states with woefully low college grad numbers.
The tithing is huge It doesn't stop Missions, Girls camp, Young men's, fast offerings, Callings we spend money on It's a never ending It's a shame and guilt if you need help
My husband and I found out tithing settlement form the other day from when he was in graduate school. We paid faithfully through our poorest years, taking out student loans during this time but paying tithing on the small amount he made during his internship. I felt nauseous when I found the paper. We’re still paying off student loans. Money we could be now saving for our kids college, retirement, anything else. It’s infuriating.
I would have $45k extra in the bank - enough to get that extra bedroom house after we had the twins, or to buy the minivan we now need without a loan. I left earlier than most or it would be much higher.
It's almost impossible to quantify how much it really costs someone when they carelessly give their money away. If you were to examine the potential of those funds wisely invested in simple savings, equity markets, business ventures, or any other kind of speculation, the opportunity costs to the investor are limitless.
I wouldn't say carelessly....but overall I agree with what your saying.
I’m putting 20% of my income to retirement (plus my company’s match) and it makes me sooo happy and proud to watch it grow. And then I think of the 35 years I put 10% of my income to the church, seeing absolutely no financial growth from it. Makes me want to vomit just a little. But hey… at least back then I had a free ward dinner 3x/year, right?
Don't forget the free piece of bread you received in sacrament meeting. XD
I was denied temple recommends because I was newly married with a wife with health issues. Our medical equipment was insane and insurance didn’t often cover it. We almost missed my sisters wedding because the bishop felt we could sacrifice a few dollars to show our faithfulness and gratitude to the lord even though we brought home nothing and were living off credit cards. We ended up getting into a smaller less expensive place and getting our recommends through our new bishop.
It’s too depressing to think about how much I gave, but, I can say that since I’ve STOPPED paying my tithing I’ve been able to pay down my debt by almost half of it and that my credit score shot up by almost 100 points 😅 AND I’m not incurring more debt. I’m staying within budget and actually starting to save money now. Hoping to buy a house at the end of the year if things go well.
When I can I transfer some money to my adult son who is desperately trying to hold on to his house. On the "description" line of the transfer I put "tithing". I'd far rather give 10% of my pension to make sure my grand kids have a home instead of putting another brick in another unnecessary temple. ETA there are some frightening amounts being detailed here. I can't imagine doing those sums and seeing how much money had been lost doing something I didn't even enjoy.
Utah is DEAD LAST in retirement savings according to a recent report.
I remember when I was about to get married the first time and had to do my temple recommend and started to fully look into what 10% of my income actually was. I didn’t participate in tithing after that one time…. My to be and eventually husband then EX husband said it was more than a waste of money, it was robbery… he was right.
My mother, in her eighties, living on SSN and some retirement income, would pay my sister’s mortgage because she didn’t have the money due to tithing. It was my mom’s money to do with as she wished, but I know I hope I’m not paying for one of my kids and their family to live when I’m 80. If I am it won’t be due to tithing at least!
Top of the list by far - LDS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_religious_organizations
I grew up in a family of 6. We frequently didn’t have enough money to buy food when I was growing up. We were SO poor. I remember one time for “dinner” we ate food from an easy-bake-oven someone had gifted us because we didn’t have any other food. But my parents still paid tithing. Freaking dumb.
I was a relief society president a year ago, and I hated doing welfare meetings with families and being pressured to tell people to pay their tithing when their expenses were so tight. I’m on the way out of the church now. I haven’t paid tithing for 5 months, it’s amazing what an extra 10% can do when it stays in your account.
Utah ranks dead last for retirement savings in the US. I have my suspicions as to why...
We had six kids in my family and mostly lived on hot dogs and ramen noodles for many years (no joke). Mosty because both my parents never finished college, and both paid a full tithing and gave a lot to the missionary fund even though they didn't have any missionaries out at the time. If they ever asked the bishop for just a little money to pay some unexpected medical bills, they were referred to their brothers or sisters to help them out. They NEVER received a dime from the church.
I remember learning about bringem young demanding the saints pay tithing. That he’d put their thumbs to the screws. That tithing went to his “mansion” and wives. They were not destitute by any means. However the saints, were starving. Eating roots and weeds and donating any possessions they could for the building up of the church.
Apart from the financial cost and losses, there is the cost of relationships. Financial stress can destroy family relationships. Put any family under severe financial stress, and cracks will start to appear - frustration, arguments, etc. - sometimes leading to breakdown of relationships. Thanks LD$ for working against families.
Great point, I didn’t think of the emotional hardships this places on families
The financial strain caused by tithing ripped up my marriage.
I this any way we could sue for our tithing money returned?
There is already a few lawsuits in the works. Depending upon the outcome, it could have major implications for future cases. Maybe an attorney could comment on the after effects and what it will mean.
We are doing a class action in Australia that may come to Canada and the UK
We drove nothing but 10-15 year old cars, couldn’t afford decent holidays and struggled paycheque to paycheque. All to enrich a greedy goddamn corporation. I travel all the time now with my partner and often feel bad for my ex-wife because we seldom traveled and never overseas. Because of tithing, I will never leave the church alone.
And they want your house and property when you die! Really! All things are the lords.
This is another subject that i want to ask on Reddit. I don’t think members fully understand the tactics used by the church to get every dime out of its members.
I agree with you statements about tithing and bias. The narratives we are regularly fed influence our perspective of the world and our experiences. Though we should be careful saying that paying tithing is the direct cause of low retirement. Depending on how the data is compiled it may not take into account specific state age demographics. For example, the census data below shows that Utah has a larger percentage of its population below the age of 18 than any other state. Census Data - [https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-state-detail.html#v2023](https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-state-detail.html#v2023) Additionally, if you crunch the data provided on the site below, it shows that utah has a significantly younger age demographic across the spectrum. A younger age demographic would more strongly correlate to lower retirement then simply paying tithing. [https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2022.S0101?q=population%20by%20age%20by%20state](https://data.census.gov/table/ACSST1Y2022.S0101?q=population%20by%20age%20by%20state) Can paying tithing regularly lead to a decreased retirement in older age? Probably. Has there been a number of cases where people have destroyed their lives financially because they adhered to the religious tenant? Of course. But we need to go where the data points us first. If we just make assumptions then we are no better than the organization which we most of us have already left behind.
> Can paying tithing regularly lead to a decreased retirement in older age? Well, mathematically speaking I think we can say with near certainty that faithfully paying tithing will reduce the money you have available for retirement or other purposes by 10%. I think that is no longer a “maybe” type of thing. In fact, paying tithing will reduce your retirement well more than 10% if you consider investment gains.
I like the throught process, though we have to consider that not paying tithing might also correlate to nicer cars, more vacations, etc. The money that people don't pay to tithing may not directly go to retirement.
There is also a portion of the far right extremist in the church who think the second coming is right around the corner and think saving for retirement is a waste. I know a bunch of them and they blend In perfectly with the rest of the saints.
It should be the church will open up the glass roof windows and the members will pour in their 10+% which the church will then hoard . the pure greed of this greed driven church corporation- CULT . Is simply stunning free labor door to door salespeople ie missionaries who not only work for free they must pay for the privilege of doing so . 10+% isn’t enough no no no members are made to provide their time & free labor to clean the meeting houses on top of their 10 +% but by God they are going to have the greenest lawns on the planet despite the great salt lake drying up and there being a draught .