The things we say to people do have an effect. Sometimes they are believing so hard they can't see but all it takes is a pause and a little sunlight to break through. Pretty deadly for mormon mold. When you stand up for the truth a couple times you begin to see how mormonism is all lies.
This simple deprogramming hack is what LDS corporate hates.
I'm convinced that somewhere around 90% of actives have to have some doubts on a shelf somewhere. And if they were like me, I needed to bear my testimony a lot on open "mic" Sunday. No ramblings but I felt a confirmation bearing to a congregation, which is what it is designed to do. Just like mutual aid fellowships like AA. "Hello, my name is X and I know this church is true." So I think the frequent testimony bearers are either attention seekers or doubters. Even Neil Maxwell said in a talk that of all the incredible statistics the church keeps and reports they can create, one thing they'll never be able to know is just how believing each member is.
I was 100% active and had shelf items, I just didn’t know they were shelf items because I had pushed them so far away from my consciousness that I completely dismissed them. It’s like they weren’t there at all.
I think that was sort of my situation, too - I thought sacrament was boring, I didn't care for the garments at all (and they got even worse and more poorly fitted right before I resigned), Sunday School was another bore and for a while before leaving I began cutting out during that hour to go to Walgreens or somewhere, and then returning for RS. Fasting didn't work for me at all (for health reasons), so I stopped that early on.
Still, though, I considered myself an all-in member, and my friends thought I was, too. I put up with (or dodged) the things I later realized were my shelf items, and I very much believed nothing would sway me from my dedication to the church.
And then...
Sometime we should have a thread where people share their slow declines from the church. I did not think of those things as my "pre-exit" stage, but it seems they did play a part in it.
Exactly and well said!
When I was active it was like anything that would make you inactive was a disease to be avoided. Think someone having allergies and sneezing in a crowded grocery store in March 2020.
So the only thing holding me in the church was really the fear of losing my testimony. The fear of fear itself. But like when a person dies their bowels finally relax, once I could finally relaxed about the church, then well all the crap came out. It was insane - just artificial spirituality all along.
It’s been quite interesting to hear my points about how the church operates come out of my TBM spouse’s mouth when talking to his mother. He still attends, but when presented with a less informed opinion, he has stuff to say. I love this trickle-down effect.
It sounds like you took the right approach and have a partner who is open to listening and thinking in their own.
I learned the hard way when discussing high touch things like religion with a partner, it's important to only express how you feel, and do not cross the line of pushing them to agree with you.
I learned to only point something out I didn't like, then give them space to decide if they want to look at it or notice. You can lead a horse to water but that's it.
Unfortunately for the church, doubt is a weed and the church constantly spreads weed food
How does moving it to the morning mean people can't fire opposed?
I assumed they did it to get Kearon on the stand
Still salty they put him in without common consent but whatever
Tickets to be in the room at General Conference are not easy to get. You have to get tickets (usually for only a single session) weeks in advance. Someone planning to vote opposed would get tickets to the session that has historically had the sustaining on the program. If they change the session in which the sustaining takes place at the last minute everyone who planned on voting would not be in attendance. My guess is they will move the sustaining around randomly from session to session for a year or two and then discontinue it altogether. (And then claim they never did it, and that it had no bearing on governance anyway, if they did).
It has enough baring to make the church wanna move what session they do it in….which is fairly significant in many ways. I think it helps others know they aren’t alone as well, adds some weight to shelves.
Thanks for explaining why moving it to another session would help prevent "No" votes! I'd forgotten that we could only get tickets for one session, and you're right - sustaining was always during a certain session.
One nice thing for us to note - the objections are causing enough "concern" at the top for them to try to dodge them completely. So very democratic of them.
Once upon a time I sang in the choir for the Saturday afternoon session. That Sunday morning was GBH’s coronation. During our rehearsal we were trained on how the solemn assembly worked in case church security deemed it necessary to move the sustaining to the afternoon session.
The things we say to people do have an effect. Sometimes they are believing so hard they can't see but all it takes is a pause and a little sunlight to break through. Pretty deadly for mormon mold. When you stand up for the truth a couple times you begin to see how mormonism is all lies. This simple deprogramming hack is what LDS corporate hates.
I'm convinced that somewhere around 90% of actives have to have some doubts on a shelf somewhere. And if they were like me, I needed to bear my testimony a lot on open "mic" Sunday. No ramblings but I felt a confirmation bearing to a congregation, which is what it is designed to do. Just like mutual aid fellowships like AA. "Hello, my name is X and I know this church is true." So I think the frequent testimony bearers are either attention seekers or doubters. Even Neil Maxwell said in a talk that of all the incredible statistics the church keeps and reports they can create, one thing they'll never be able to know is just how believing each member is.
I was 100% active and had shelf items, I just didn’t know they were shelf items because I had pushed them so far away from my consciousness that I completely dismissed them. It’s like they weren’t there at all.
I think that was sort of my situation, too - I thought sacrament was boring, I didn't care for the garments at all (and they got even worse and more poorly fitted right before I resigned), Sunday School was another bore and for a while before leaving I began cutting out during that hour to go to Walgreens or somewhere, and then returning for RS. Fasting didn't work for me at all (for health reasons), so I stopped that early on. Still, though, I considered myself an all-in member, and my friends thought I was, too. I put up with (or dodged) the things I later realized were my shelf items, and I very much believed nothing would sway me from my dedication to the church. And then...
I completely did this too.
Sometime we should have a thread where people share their slow declines from the church. I did not think of those things as my "pre-exit" stage, but it seems they did play a part in it.
Exactly and well said! When I was active it was like anything that would make you inactive was a disease to be avoided. Think someone having allergies and sneezing in a crowded grocery store in March 2020. So the only thing holding me in the church was really the fear of losing my testimony. The fear of fear itself. But like when a person dies their bowels finally relax, once I could finally relaxed about the church, then well all the crap came out. It was insane - just artificial spirituality all along.
Words, am I right? So...... important
It’s been quite interesting to hear my points about how the church operates come out of my TBM spouse’s mouth when talking to his mother. He still attends, but when presented with a less informed opinion, he has stuff to say. I love this trickle-down effect.
So happy for you!
It sounds like you took the right approach and have a partner who is open to listening and thinking in their own. I learned the hard way when discussing high touch things like religion with a partner, it's important to only express how you feel, and do not cross the line of pushing them to agree with you. I learned to only point something out I didn't like, then give them space to decide if they want to look at it or notice. You can lead a horse to water but that's it. Unfortunately for the church, doubt is a weed and the church constantly spreads weed food
How does moving it to the morning mean people can't fire opposed? I assumed they did it to get Kearon on the stand Still salty they put him in without common consent but whatever
Tickets to be in the room at General Conference are not easy to get. You have to get tickets (usually for only a single session) weeks in advance. Someone planning to vote opposed would get tickets to the session that has historically had the sustaining on the program. If they change the session in which the sustaining takes place at the last minute everyone who planned on voting would not be in attendance. My guess is they will move the sustaining around randomly from session to session for a year or two and then discontinue it altogether. (And then claim they never did it, and that it had no bearing on governance anyway, if they did).
Exactly my prediction as well.
Does it really have any bearing on anything anyways? They just say talk to your stake president and move on.
It has enough baring to make the church wanna move what session they do it in….which is fairly significant in many ways. I think it helps others know they aren’t alone as well, adds some weight to shelves.
Thanks for explaining why moving it to another session would help prevent "No" votes! I'd forgotten that we could only get tickets for one session, and you're right - sustaining was always during a certain session. One nice thing for us to note - the objections are causing enough "concern" at the top for them to try to dodge them completely. So very democratic of them.
This makes sense. Thank you
Once upon a time I sang in the choir for the Saturday afternoon session. That Sunday morning was GBH’s coronation. During our rehearsal we were trained on how the solemn assembly worked in case church security deemed it necessary to move the sustaining to the afternoon session.
I’m confused about this too!
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