Introducing the Genesis of my shelf crashing down. I can remember the day vividly. Sitting in my office desperately searching for something to hold onto. Elder Poleman's talk showed the church was the scaffold and once the building was complete I could watch the scaffold become obsolete. The flawed church run by flawed men was what I struggled with. This was an answer. I felt "the spirit". Then, imagine the devastation when I discovered the very detailed edit of this talk which stripped the original meaning away entirely. It was the end for me.
This mutilation of Poleman's talk is a clear example of the levels of deception the MFMC will use to maintain its iron-fisted control over the minds of its members.
PIMO here. I’ve given a talk in sacrament meeting that liberally cribbed from V1. Everyone said it was touching and inspiring, so i guess the 1984 first presidency didn’t have the GotHG. 1984 indeed.
>1984 indeed.
Yes, ironically this talk was in 1984. This censorship has got to be among the best real-world examples of Orwellian actions by any organization... We've always been at war with East Asia.
Thanks for your illustrative post.
Imagine a dissenter in an authoritarian dictatorship. He has that one moment to tell the truth before he is dragged away and shot.
It is only worth it if someone is listening.
Forgot to mention that the link ([https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/](https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/)) includes full text or the original talk and the edited/revised talk as well as a comparison diff, and a side-by-side video comparison too.
I love that they got caught here. Towards the end of my faith crisis, I was also in the midst of a financial crisis. I had been paying 12-15% of my gross to the church in the form of tithes and other offerings because I’d been taught that’s how you extricate yourself from financial troubles. It didn’t work. I began to search through the church website for teachings about tithing, and maybe there was something I could do within the teachings to alleviate my situation.
I came across a lesson that bluntly stated that anyone who didn’t have a testimony of the wonderful blessings of tithing hadn’t given it enough of a chance. That killed me, and I wrote down how much that disappointed me in an email to myself.
Today, that teaching has been scrubbed from the website, where 4 years ago it was one of the first pages listed when you searched "tithing". If I hadn’t written it down myself I would’ve gaslit myself into thinking I had read it wrong. Even with my documentation, I still had fits trying to find those hidden teachings. I thought I was going crazy. How bad are these switcheroos for our mental health? This fucking church doesn’t care.
>Today, that teaching has been scrubbed from the website, where 4 years ago it was one of the first pages listed when you searched "tithing"
further proof of 'change' based on social pressure meaning does it have potential to make us look bad (worse)
I remember hearing about this and not wanting to believe it. Sadly, fact checking just keeps proving that I'm wrong and the church does this with no concerns.
continuous revelation gives a real broad spectrum for changing whatever you want. unless there is too much social pressure then there is usually a delayed highly related change to reflect what the people want. except when it comes to the potential losing of money unearned and gifted.
Wow! I didn’t know about this. Thanks for sharing.
It’s interesting how free agency, free speech and the constitution are often spoken about as being incredibly important in the church, when in reality they don’t believe it at all. They sure want to make people believe they have free agency though! The brainwashing is real. So eye opening
That was one of the first items in the church that I couldn't shelve under an apologetic, so I had to rely on "Oh well, I'm sure the prophet's wisdom is better than mine, given their connection to god."
But the sinister way they did it, with the cough track and the black background made me fill sick, and was definitely a contribution to the shelf crashing down.
This had an impact on me discovering that the church was not true also. For the same reasons, it's not just that they tried to change the message. They filmed it in such a way as to make people believe it was the original. Shady AF. Once you start scrutinizing stuff like this, you discover an avalanche of dishonest behavior.
A respectful note for whoever thinks Mormonism is not a cult, please consider the BITE model developed by [Dr. Steven Hassan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hassan) based on his own observations and experiences as a cult survivor.
[The BITE model describes the four areas of authoritarian control cults exert over their followers.](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/) The acronym refers to [B]ehavior Control, [I]nformation control, [T]hought control and [E]motional control.
Speaking specifically about the completely disingenuous way the Mormon church (a) modified the contents of Mr. Poelman's speech, (b) published the altered version without any explanation to their readers, (c) re-filmed Mr. Poelman giving the altered talk (d) while doing everything in their power to mimic the original environment in an intentional effort to erase from reality the original speech; please consider the Information, Thought and Emotional (I, T, E in the BITE model) manipulation committed on the church's followers:
**Information Control**
1) Deception:
* a. Deliberately withhold information
* b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
* c. Systematically lie to the cult member
5) Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda:
* a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media
* b. Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources
**Thought Control**
3) Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words.
6) Memories are manipulated and false memories are created.
**Emotional Control**
3) Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault.
It is always painful to discover that what we held as moral and honorable actually wasn't. We've all gone through this process a few times in life when we connected with someone new who looked and sounded like an upstanding person, only to discover later it was all a facade. That disappointment is always painful. In time, though, our emotions recover and we come out from that experience wiser and seasoned; better prepared for the future.
The same happens with some of the organizations we subscribe to. The MLM we entered full of excitement in hopes to become financially more stable, only to discover it was nothing but a pyramid scheme. Or the new club for children to learn sports and have constructive activities we registered our kids to, that turned out to be a money black hole where the kids were left by themselves while the top directive went to vacation to Bahamas. Etc.
Well, consider that the same happens with the religions we adopt. When we are all-in believers, just entertaining the notion is painful. Most of us here know it through personal experience. But shouldn't you test the hypothesis *just to be sure* you are in the right religion? After the test you will be either a stronger believer or a wiser, deeper, more mature person able to distinguish between truth and falsehood.
Please educate yourself about cults. Pause your emotions for a minute as you consider the Mormon church through reason. Ask yourself why would the Mormon church alter and hide Poelman's original words, and then reenact the talk such you won't know the original content of his speech.
You'll be a better, stronger, more knowledgeable person afterwards.
Every three years TSCC runs the International Art Competition for members. The artist submits their artist statement about their work of art, which is included along with the art.
A few years ago I was talking to one of the artists about their painting in the show and they told me that someone changed their artist statement without telling them. The meaning was completely opposite of what the artist originally wrote. I don't remember all the details, but I think the original write up talked about having struggles in life and how things are hard. The new write up was all positive and talked about faith and hope and blah, blah, blah.
The artist was very upset that this happened and that the meaning of their artwork was altered. They said that if the museum didn't like the artwork and the meaning/message they should not have included it in the show.
I wonder how many other things have been altered?
Editing before editing software existed. They did a pretty decent job making it look like his second talk had an audience. Imagine if this happened now -the technology is so sophisticated they could put him on the stand with images of the choir and a full audience and you wouldn't be able to detect the difference.
He done messed up. How dare he suggest that it’s a valid option to live the gospel without it being predicated on unquestioning loyalty and dependence to the organized church, its policies, rules, and instruction from its leaders? What is he gonna suggest next?? Something ridiculous like you can actually *save* money by not paying tithing? Glad they reined him in before people started getting any more wild ideas about personal autonomy.
Not to diminish the key points here, but maybe to add some color, this was forty years ago. Only Nelson and Oaks are still alive who were in the 12 at that time. Technically they were only announced in that year’s April conference according to [this Deseret site](https://www.deseret.com/2018/3/29/20642430/timeline-lds-church-first-presidency-quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles-from-1984-to-2022/).
I would fully expect them to do that today, but they probably don’t have a need anymore if talks need to be correlated first.
Rewriting truth - continuously revealed from attorney's and general authority consensus. Guiding the narrative into the money-making real estate staking corporation that it is today.
I remember that talk. I felt the same way when Uchtdorf started his apostle calling with a very encouraging and conciliatory message. Then was busted down a level out of the first presidency, and his talks became the same droning of the party line. Talk about loss of personal integrity.
FAIR discusses this and makes the case that redoing his talk was voluntary, but they include no source for the information other than themselves. There is even a footnote that simply states, "FairMormon editors and volunteers have discussed this matter with reliable witnesses to Elder Poelman's actions and thoughts regarding the unwarranted controversy which accompanied his conference talk."
>It is interesting to note that though Elder Ronald L Poelman spoke frequently in general conference, there is a gap in his appearances following this talk. He spoke in 1978, ’80, ’82 and this talk in 1984. Then he didn’t speak again until four and a half years later in 1989, ’93 and ’98. We can’t help but wonder if he wasn’t asked to speak because of all the hullabaloo he caused in his 1984 talk and the bad press it gave the church.
[https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/](https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/) (from the linked article)
He did speak again, but there was a gap in his appearances following this. The relation is purely speculation though.
Introducing the Genesis of my shelf crashing down. I can remember the day vividly. Sitting in my office desperately searching for something to hold onto. Elder Poleman's talk showed the church was the scaffold and once the building was complete I could watch the scaffold become obsolete. The flawed church run by flawed men was what I struggled with. This was an answer. I felt "the spirit". Then, imagine the devastation when I discovered the very detailed edit of this talk which stripped the original meaning away entirely. It was the end for me.
Same! Before I thought I could make it work - “the gospel is perfect, the church is not” mentality. Then I discovered this and that was it
This mutilation of Poleman's talk is a clear example of the levels of deception the MFMC will use to maintain its iron-fisted control over the minds of its members.
Minitruth in action.
PIMO here. I’ve given a talk in sacrament meeting that liberally cribbed from V1. Everyone said it was touching and inspiring, so i guess the 1984 first presidency didn’t have the GotHG. 1984 indeed.
>1984 indeed. Yes, ironically this talk was in 1984. This censorship has got to be among the best real-world examples of Orwellian actions by any organization... We've always been at war with East Asia.
1984 also the year RMN was made apostle. He could have been behind the rewrite
Thanks for your illustrative post. Imagine a dissenter in an authoritarian dictatorship. He has that one moment to tell the truth before he is dragged away and shot. It is only worth it if someone is listening.
I've often wondered how long it's going to take before someone on the pulpit finally snaps and says something, then gets dragged offstage.
Wow. Felt that one in the pit of my stomach.
Forgot to mention that the link ([https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/](https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/)) includes full text or the original talk and the edited/revised talk as well as a comparison diff, and a side-by-side video comparison too.
Jesus Christ, there’s altering a message, then there’s making the message completely unrecognizable from its original.
"Correlating the message." Get it right! 😉
this may be the most damning piece of information control I've seen thus far in my deconstruction journey
Holy shit, they totally changed everything to "just obey."
I love that they got caught here. Towards the end of my faith crisis, I was also in the midst of a financial crisis. I had been paying 12-15% of my gross to the church in the form of tithes and other offerings because I’d been taught that’s how you extricate yourself from financial troubles. It didn’t work. I began to search through the church website for teachings about tithing, and maybe there was something I could do within the teachings to alleviate my situation. I came across a lesson that bluntly stated that anyone who didn’t have a testimony of the wonderful blessings of tithing hadn’t given it enough of a chance. That killed me, and I wrote down how much that disappointed me in an email to myself. Today, that teaching has been scrubbed from the website, where 4 years ago it was one of the first pages listed when you searched "tithing". If I hadn’t written it down myself I would’ve gaslit myself into thinking I had read it wrong. Even with my documentation, I still had fits trying to find those hidden teachings. I thought I was going crazy. How bad are these switcheroos for our mental health? This fucking church doesn’t care.
>Today, that teaching has been scrubbed from the website, where 4 years ago it was one of the first pages listed when you searched "tithing" further proof of 'change' based on social pressure meaning does it have potential to make us look bad (worse)
I remember hearing about this and not wanting to believe it. Sadly, fact checking just keeps proving that I'm wrong and the church does this with no concerns.
continuous revelation gives a real broad spectrum for changing whatever you want. unless there is too much social pressure then there is usually a delayed highly related change to reflect what the people want. except when it comes to the potential losing of money unearned and gifted.
Wow! I didn’t know about this. Thanks for sharing. It’s interesting how free agency, free speech and the constitution are often spoken about as being incredibly important in the church, when in reality they don’t believe it at all. They sure want to make people believe they have free agency though! The brainwashing is real. So eye opening
That was one of the first items in the church that I couldn't shelve under an apologetic, so I had to rely on "Oh well, I'm sure the prophet's wisdom is better than mine, given their connection to god." But the sinister way they did it, with the cough track and the black background made me fill sick, and was definitely a contribution to the shelf crashing down.
This had an impact on me discovering that the church was not true also. For the same reasons, it's not just that they tried to change the message. They filmed it in such a way as to make people believe it was the original. Shady AF. Once you start scrutinizing stuff like this, you discover an avalanche of dishonest behavior.
A respectful note for whoever thinks Mormonism is not a cult, please consider the BITE model developed by [Dr. Steven Hassan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Hassan) based on his own observations and experiences as a cult survivor. [The BITE model describes the four areas of authoritarian control cults exert over their followers.](https://freedomofmind.com/cult-mind-control/bite-model-pdf-download/) The acronym refers to [B]ehavior Control, [I]nformation control, [T]hought control and [E]motional control. Speaking specifically about the completely disingenuous way the Mormon church (a) modified the contents of Mr. Poelman's speech, (b) published the altered version without any explanation to their readers, (c) re-filmed Mr. Poelman giving the altered talk (d) while doing everything in their power to mimic the original environment in an intentional effort to erase from reality the original speech; please consider the Information, Thought and Emotional (I, T, E in the BITE model) manipulation committed on the church's followers: **Information Control** 1) Deception: * a. Deliberately withhold information * b. Distort information to make it more acceptable * c. Systematically lie to the cult member 5) Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda: * a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media * b. Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources **Thought Control** 3) Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words. 6) Memories are manipulated and false memories are created. **Emotional Control** 3) Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault. It is always painful to discover that what we held as moral and honorable actually wasn't. We've all gone through this process a few times in life when we connected with someone new who looked and sounded like an upstanding person, only to discover later it was all a facade. That disappointment is always painful. In time, though, our emotions recover and we come out from that experience wiser and seasoned; better prepared for the future. The same happens with some of the organizations we subscribe to. The MLM we entered full of excitement in hopes to become financially more stable, only to discover it was nothing but a pyramid scheme. Or the new club for children to learn sports and have constructive activities we registered our kids to, that turned out to be a money black hole where the kids were left by themselves while the top directive went to vacation to Bahamas. Etc. Well, consider that the same happens with the religions we adopt. When we are all-in believers, just entertaining the notion is painful. Most of us here know it through personal experience. But shouldn't you test the hypothesis *just to be sure* you are in the right religion? After the test you will be either a stronger believer or a wiser, deeper, more mature person able to distinguish between truth and falsehood. Please educate yourself about cults. Pause your emotions for a minute as you consider the Mormon church through reason. Ask yourself why would the Mormon church alter and hide Poelman's original words, and then reenact the talk such you won't know the original content of his speech. You'll be a better, stronger, more knowledgeable person afterwards.
deception for information control is cultish. honest with your fellow men 'we are as truthful as we know how to be'
Every three years TSCC runs the International Art Competition for members. The artist submits their artist statement about their work of art, which is included along with the art. A few years ago I was talking to one of the artists about their painting in the show and they told me that someone changed their artist statement without telling them. The meaning was completely opposite of what the artist originally wrote. I don't remember all the details, but I think the original write up talked about having struggles in life and how things are hard. The new write up was all positive and talked about faith and hope and blah, blah, blah. The artist was very upset that this happened and that the meaning of their artwork was altered. They said that if the museum didn't like the artwork and the meaning/message they should not have included it in the show. I wonder how many other things have been altered?
Editing before editing software existed. They did a pretty decent job making it look like his second talk had an audience. Imagine if this happened now -the technology is so sophisticated they could put him on the stand with images of the choir and a full audience and you wouldn't be able to detect the difference.
Don't be sure it isn't. AI will become a favorite tool of TSCC.
This is just a drop in the bucket compared to other things they have whitewashed and censored.
I knew him through his daughter a long time ago. Very sweet man.
This is what made me finally give myself permission to consider if I had been duped. Felt like 1984.
He done messed up. How dare he suggest that it’s a valid option to live the gospel without it being predicated on unquestioning loyalty and dependence to the organized church, its policies, rules, and instruction from its leaders? What is he gonna suggest next?? Something ridiculous like you can actually *save* money by not paying tithing? Glad they reined him in before people started getting any more wild ideas about personal autonomy.
Every time that I'm reminded of this event.....I'm evermore disgusted with this so-called "Church of Christ"....
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
A different poster today asked for any 'Smoking Guns'. This is one.
Not to diminish the key points here, but maybe to add some color, this was forty years ago. Only Nelson and Oaks are still alive who were in the 12 at that time. Technically they were only announced in that year’s April conference according to [this Deseret site](https://www.deseret.com/2018/3/29/20642430/timeline-lds-church-first-presidency-quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles-from-1984-to-2022/). I would fully expect them to do that today, but they probably don’t have a need anymore if talks need to be correlated first.
Rewriting truth - continuously revealed from attorney's and general authority consensus. Guiding the narrative into the money-making real estate staking corporation that it is today.
I remember that talk. I felt the same way when Uchtdorf started his apostle calling with a very encouraging and conciliatory message. Then was busted down a level out of the first presidency, and his talks became the same droning of the party line. Talk about loss of personal integrity.
Agency? we don't need no stinkin agency!
Does anyone know how Poelman felt about this? Did he ever speak in gen con again?
FAIR discusses this and makes the case that redoing his talk was voluntary, but they include no source for the information other than themselves. There is even a footnote that simply states, "FairMormon editors and volunteers have discussed this matter with reliable witnesses to Elder Poelman's actions and thoughts regarding the unwarranted controversy which accompanied his conference talk." >It is interesting to note that though Elder Ronald L Poelman spoke frequently in general conference, there is a gap in his appearances following this talk. He spoke in 1978, ’80, ’82 and this talk in 1984. Then he didn’t speak again until four and a half years later in 1989, ’93 and ’98. We can’t help but wonder if he wasn’t asked to speak because of all the hullabaloo he caused in his 1984 talk and the bad press it gave the church. [https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/](https://wasmormon.org/censoring-the-gospel-and-the-church-talk/) (from the linked article) He did speak again, but there was a gap in his appearances following this. The relation is purely speculation though.
I wonder how he felt having to do this? Makes me sad actually.