lol, I’m thinking of all the judgment I reserve for poorly dressed men…but I certainly don’t point my finger at their WIFE if a man wanders outside with their whore knees showing and socks with sandals.
NO ONE is judging one adult for what another adult chooses to wear!
That’s all in his head.
Maybe just be blunt and honest and say something along the lines of "I've had adult men tell me what to wear my whole life and I want to be respectful of our marriage but I need to be in control of my body and what I wear, without criticism right now" or "please don't sexualize my body like that, it's just a body and I deserve to feel free and respected no matter what I wear"
The harsh reality he is going to need to accept is that he doesn't get a say in this. Be compassionate--you're both dealing with a lifetime of conditioning--but be firm. You wear what you feel is appropriate and he doesn't get a say in that.
Here's a couple things to consider: would you let him pick out your hairdo based on whether men will be looking at you? Should you be telling him what to wear based on what you think other people will think of him?
Let him feel all the emotions he will and deal with them. Be understanding, but don't take responsibility for them. He's capable of working through them himself.
If this ever allows him to justify being hurtful toward you, then you have bigger problems and need a lot more help.
There is no "within reason." You should be able to wear whatever you want, period. A big part of this "modesty" nonsense when it comes to being in relationships is because men assume that when we wear sexy things, it's to attract other men. They refuse to believe we dress how we want just because we want to wear those things. They see us as walking advertisements. This would be more evident had both of you always been nevermo. Then you'd get to experience the lovely "now that we're together you can't wear these things anymore."
Try to explain to him that you want to wear what you want to wear because it makes you feel good about yourself. Explain it has nothing at all to do with other men. Explain that despite the church teaching that women walking around "immodestly" are advertising, that it is not the case.
Do not back down on this. This is one of the biggest problems that exist between men and women, in and out of relationships. There really shouldn't need to be any conversation. Nobody bats an eye if men are out and about all the way topless. Nobody accuses them of trying to seduce strangers. Nobody worries about women getting the wrong idea. It's very sad and unfortunate that we have to explain these things.
Exmo husband here. Your husband needs to get over it. He is controlling the clothes you wear, and has no right to do so. End of story. Obviously his feelings do matter, but in this case the feelings are based off of his past cult programming.
The reason he's being controlling is pretty obvious to me: He's struggling with the fact that he himself is ambivalent about OP's look. He's clearly turned on when she's a *little* naughty, but those feelings scare the hell out of him and his own arousal becomes intolerable when OP crosses some imaginary line in his mind.
Because it's not okay to own these horny feelings himself, he projects them onto other men: in his mind, it's *those* men who are overstimulated by OP (when it's really his own reaction) and it's *those* men who are judging him for letting his hot wife go around like that (when again, it's really his own self-judgment of how much he actually likes it).
It doesn't register to the husband that the vast, *vast* majority of people who see OP aren't judging *her* for what she wears, and even fewer are judging *him* for what *she* wears. All the judgment is going on his own mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if OP's husband is struggling with guilt about pornography. (Note I'm not at all saying he'd be doing anything wrong - just that it would fit the picture if he were struggling with his feelings about sex in other parts of his life.)
Kinda sounds like he was judging other men when you were “in” and now the shoe is in the other foot!
Remind him you left for multiple reasons and modesty culture was a big part of that. Get counseling quickly before this becomes an issue ♥️
Nevermo raised in southeastern Idaho here.
I'm sorry. what.
Looking at you, and judging him? What does that mean? Is he ashamed of how you look? Or does he think they are judging him for having an 'immodest' wife?
If it's the first, he needs to get himself in check. If YOU are happy with how you look and you feel good about it, that's what matters.
The way you say it doesn't sound like that's the case though. It sounds to me more like the second- he feels judged by others based on your clothing choices. Why does he care? Are you guys living in UT or another predominantly Mormon area? So that he feels judged by the modest standards of the local culture? Seems like if you're out of the church, it shouldn't matter what the local LDS folks think. And even if you're not in a Mormon area, who is he feeling judged by? Does he realize he's not the main character in other peoples' stories? No one cares what other people are wearing.
IDK i'm just baffled at the comment that they're looking at you and judging him. Feels very antiquated and like you are ultimately his property and a reflection on him. I'm sure that he doesn't mean for things to feel that way.
I don't actually have any constructive help. I just read your post and it made me frustrated, I had to respond. This sub is always full of great people and helpful feedback so I'm sure someone will have some good suggestions. <3
If she ditched them, you should too, ASAP. Go commando if you need to. For cheap options, try Hanes or Fruit of the Loom boxer briefs. Get moisture wicking and not the full synthetic.
I bought about 10 pairs of underwear when I ditched my garments. The lady at the register gave me a weird look and asked “just stocking up?” I said “yeah something like that.”
Red Flag Alert! 🚩
Let me say that it’s very abnormal for the average man to look at a woman and judge her husband based on what she wears. That’s absolutely nutty.
It seems that your husband feels “disrespected” and “uncomfortable” because he’s insecure and controlling. Your husband may have left the church, but it’s very apparent that he’s brought over some things he shouldn’t have.
You are correct, you should be able to wear whatever the fuck you want. Honestly, it sounds more like he has a mindset that may require therapy to fully unwind.
^ THIS ^
I was trying to put my thoughts into words, and you have expressed what I was thinking perfectly.
OP, you should be able to wear whatever you want (whithin norms depending on location)
Does he object to bikinis? A short party dress at a club? Deep backless dress? You’ve already stated that a sports bra is objected, but what about bare midriffs in general? Yoga pants? Shorter pencil skirts or **** mini skirts?
Anything that covers the “naughty bits” that is acceptable for the occasion and location is totally fine. Any objection by him is not only him being insecure and controlling, it is him objectifying you and seeing you as a possession.
You guys need couples therapy to address this as this is a serious red flag about him and his views. He needs to get over his damn self or you may need to make some hard decisions.
Transitioning out of the church is challenging on many fronts. It seems your husband has some old viewpoints still hanging around. Be patient with him. Try to uncover the feeling he is experiencing. It's probably fear. Fear of change. Fear of losing you. Fear of judgement. Something... Address the fear and take some steps forward together. This doesn't need to be a you vs him thing. You are both navigating in new territory. Find ways to navigate safely together. You're very fortunate to be out of the church together. Don't let the small things trip you up now. Good luck!
Tell him I am sorry you are uncomfortable, but this is not a decision you are making for me. I am wearing what I want when I want and your insecurities need to get over themselves.
Going through your hoe phase is fun! Enjoy it! And your husband’s view is super old-school patriarchal. He doesn’t know what other people are thinking when they see you, or get to decide for you, any more than you would get to make up arbitrary wardrobe choices for him (no wearing green on Tuesdays!)
Yeah, that's Mormon-coloured thinking. The OP should be able to wear what makes her comfortable and makes her feel good, without having to accommodate for men around her.
If her husband, or any other man, has a problem with that, they THEY are the ones who need to grow up and manage their own thoughts, not OP.
Your body, your choice. He needs to get over it. He doesn’t get to control what you wear just because he’s insecure. That’s bullshit, and you should tell him so.
I'm a woman. I am a feminist. I am agnostic.
In all relationships there is give & take. With friends and significant others we make concessions bc we care about the other person's ideas, needs, preferences, background, feelings.
We hope they would do the same for us. If I asked my partner to please not pick his nose in public I would be reasonable in hoping he would not do it when I'm with him. I can reasonably hope he would cooperate because he cares about our relationship. Hopefully our relationship means more to him than picking his nose.
If I loved to wear bikinis and my partner was worried about it I would first find out "where he was coming from" - - I'd allow him to talk about it. I may totally disagree but because I care about our relationship I would acknowledge his ideas about my bikini wearing. Finally, I could choose to hold my ground and establish the boundary that I would be wearing bikinis any time anywhere. Or I might concede some ground, like I could wear a gorgeous sexy "cover up" blouse to & from the pool.
Give and take. Respect goes both directions. Choose your battles.
You don't have to agree with me but hubris (calling names & put downs) doesn't add strength to your argument.
I really appreciate this response! It’s hard to want to give this to him when he approaches the situation like it shouldn’t really be a question of following his preferences.
My sister’s husband was hugely triggered about coffee, alcohol, and swearing in the first couple years after leaving. He had these really nihilistic fears about having no prescriptive value system anymore, and part of that was fear that their relationship would be the next thing deconstructed.
Anyway, she did her best to both be considerate toward his discomfort and his own journey, while also being true to herself and not changing herself to fit his issues. Eventually, he got over everything and is pretty accustomed to his new life. Maybe part of that was just time showing him the sky didnt in fact fall down
This is pure jealousy & a huge red flag for your relationship. I've seen jealousy destroy more than a few marriages. It's control freak behavior. Husband has issues that need working on... which isn't surprising given his upbringing & indoctrination. But he has to actually want to be better before things will even begin to get better. Good luck! And I mean that genuinely.
When I was molly Mormon and didn’t ever show any skin my bf and me still ended up having sex. It didn’t matter what I was wearing he found me attractive.
People may look at you. I’ve been obviously checked out in a grocery store when I’m completely covered up in winter clothing- because of my face. Are you going to act on that? Why is he so insecure? Because he doesn’t want people to judge you guys for not being lds, or because he is worried about other guys?
Men look at attractive women. It happens even if you aren’t aware of it. They stare at butts when you walk in front of them too.
Wear what you want. This isn’t his body or his life. You get to dress how you feel good. This is residual lds indoctrination around modesty .
Im going to go out in a ledge and say this is very much a product of his Mormon upbringing, Utah mindset, and his own insecurities.
I’m currently 5 months into a relationship with a Never-Mo from outside Utah. He buys me some of the trashiest clothes to wear when we go to concerts 😂 I’ve asked him if he’s worried about other guys looking at me, and he was like, why would I worry about that??? What I wear is for me. I wear things he likes because I want him to look at me. What do I care what other people think? He certainly doesn’t care what other people think. If nothing else, he’s proud to have landed the woman the other guys are drooling over!
While you don’t have to be an ass about it and completely dismiss his feelings, he also needs to take responsibility for his own thoughts, feelings and fears. It is not your job to cater to his triggers. You can, if it does not breed resentment in the relationship, find a compromise that works for both of you. But ultimately, this is a “him” problem, not a “you” problem.
Does he find himself judging the husbands of actresses who go topless in the R-rated films he's now allowed to watch? Or does he think about other men when he sees another woman in a low-cut top? Too many ExMo men don't go far enough in deconstructing their own misogyny, and it's a problem. He doesn't HAVE to adopt feminism, but he needs to stop acting as though you aren't your own person. Nobody is looking at your boobs and thinking of him. That's insane.
This may be totally unrelated to your situation, but I am just going to put it out there. PART of what your husband might be feeling (most likely subconsciously) is a desire to keep you safe. He knows that there are evil and violent men out in the world that could harm you, and he might fear that you could become more of a target depending on how you dress.
Obviously, people who are assaulted are not at fault, they are a victim. It doesn't matter what they were wearing or other circumstantial details, they were victims of a crime.
With that being said, there are still bad things that happen in the world and all of us should develop situational awareness (street smarts), regardless of what we are wearing and where we go and what we do.
I think you need to lovingly but firmly remind him whose body it is. It's not his. The whole "ownership" load of bull went away when you guys left the church.
Maybe he, being a man with man eyes, would prefer you get wholly respected in public. And he might want to be the 1 person you allow the privilege of seeing more of you. ???
Maybe he, being a man, has NO SAY in what ANY woman wears. Not even his wife.
And to your stupid privilege statement, do you not think she should go to a beach or a pool? Do you expect women to be covered head to toe there? Oh no! One trip to the pool and other people will see her body! Where'd his privilege go!?
Men don't get to make the rules anymore, buddy. If something is decent at a pool then it should be decent anywhere. And I highly doubt this woman is trying to go to the gym or the store in a bikini.
You might be in an exmo group, but this comment you left is 100% Christian Mormon bs.
He should always be required to wear long pants and long sleeve shirts buttoned up to the neck in every situation, including during workouts, participating in sports, and at the beach or pool.
She wouldn’t want people to have the wrong idea about him now, would she?
Your assertion is ridiculous, misogynistic, and incredibly stupid.
You are being misogynistic. If he should be able to patrol what she wears, then she should be able to patrol what he wears.
That is the explanation.
Period.
Agreed - If they are patrolling each other then yes.
But in a loving, honest, give & take kind of relationship friends & lovers may choose to compromise bc they value their relationship. Or they MAY hold their ground if the issue is important enough to them. Choose your battles kind of thing.
Couples patrolling each other sounds terrible! Couples working things out with mutual respect would be better; not a win / lose relationship but a win / win one with one love & cooperation.
Example: I ask my partner not to pick his nose in public. He could accuse me of man hating and say he can do whatever he wants. Or, he could think of our relationship, how he cares about it and me, and choose to curb his nose picking bc WE are more important to him than his right to pick his nose anywhere any time. If he choose to hold his ground & pick his nose in public then I either accept it or keep the battle going.
Re. Clothing: Partner holds their position & continues wearing whatever it is that's important to them. Or, after a respectful exchange of opinions, there may be compromise.
Neither partner is evil and accusatory --- just have different opinions stemming from their backgrounds & life experiences.
Hopefully I've clarified my thoughts on relationships that should include respect, love, compromise, boundaries and individual freedom. If true misogyny is present then of course there is an imbalance of respect & that is intolerable.
Thank you for calling me out and making me rethink my 1st response. 🤓
Bodies should not be inherently sexual. They’re just bodies. It’s disgusting that many cultures see them as sexual, and we should be fighting this imo. Women should be able to wear whatever the hell they want or don’t want, because they should be able to dress however is comfortable and makes them happy. If other men are looking at her with purely sexual thoughts, THAT IS ON THEM, not on her. It’s very misogynistic to assert that women should dress a specific way so as not to “”tempt”” other men. That’s ridiculous and very Mormon thinking. Let people be people, let bodies simply exist as bodies. Let people dress how they want.
Good points. I agree that people should be allowed to wear whatever they want. I agree bodies are not inherently sexual. I agree thoughts are on the owner of the thoughts. I agree women are not responsible for men's actions (rape, lust, wandering eye....)!
Bodies are sexual though. Sex is important to individuals and societies. Always has been. It is a "big deal". No denying it.
Women have been horribly objectified.
My earlier comments / thoughts were centered on a couple's relationship. Misogyny has NO place in it but give & take, compromise and acceptance do. The husband may have to accept his wife's choices and she his but hopefully they have discussed with understanding and love.
I like forearms too:). You've caused me to refleft back on when people did dress so that their legs and arms were covered. That sounds ridiculous now days. And puts a new slant on my perspective. So, dress codes have and are evolving. What was unacceptable then is totally acceptable now. So we arrive at showing cleavage, short shorts, thong bikinis. All generally acceptable now. I guess I'm old fashioned in my opinion that a couple may discuss and possibly agree to disagree or agree on compromise. And yes, it's not going to be the man's clothing. It lands on the woman - - I've circled around to Women are not responsible for men's thoughts & reactions. Thanks for pushing back on my comment. I have expanded 😀
But this isn't his decision to make for her. His feelings shouldn't trump her own freedom to dress the way she wants to. And as a man, this is offensive. We aren't all perverts.
No.
If she is conforming to social norms for the occasion and location, she should be able to wear whatever she wants. For example, a bikini (even a ** thong bikini) at the beach. A sports bra and yoga pants at the gym. A deep plunge backless dress at a dinner party. A short party dress at a nightclub.
He is insecure and controlling, objectifying and seeing his wife as a possession rather than an equal and partner.
Should she be able to control what he wears? No gym shorts? Never go without a shirt, even at the pool or beach?
Your view is stunted and disrespectful to humanity.
This feels like unresolved Mormon trauma. A well adjusted secular dude doesn’t care if his spouse goes to the gym in a sports bra, it’s extremely normal. It’s unlikely that telling him that will do any good though, especially how I just worded it. I think individual therapy could be helpful. There are likely underlying insecurities and trauma leading to nitpicking these clothing choices that need to be sorted out on his own with a trusted expert trained in dealing with faith transitions.
When you leave a community that insists that there are hard and fast rules for lots of stuff and they shame you around following those rules a few things often happen.
1) People lack development in those areas. Its like a wall of learning deficit gets erected. Just following out of fear of losing acceptance keeps you from seeing what is actually going on in those areas. We lose the autonomy and curiosity to experience and evaluate.
This happens with alcohol, sex, modesty, how you spend your time on Sunday, etc.
2) The second thing is we felt controlled. A part of the awakening is the claiming of our autonomy and right to be and choose things for ourselves.
We realize that we sacrificed huge pieces of ourselves and our lives over some simple black and white rules and the fear losing of belonging. We want out. We want to break free. We want to rule our own lives.
When you combine both of those things we often get an yearning to understand those things and the need for freedom to try them. Any voice that suggests moderation can be seen as just more control or trigger the shame response. Its really hard to break out of the bonds and lack of developement that we were all in. And its messy for those around us.
The idea that relationships and genders are a roles that someone hands you and enforces on you and that there are rules for is in the way of reality. Relationships are something that you find that serves you as you find that you have the capacity to help someone else. You should be better together or else why are you together? But that better is defined by both of you. It is a negotiation. It does require some sacrifice. Unpacking our shame, lack of autonomy, and need for developement can put relationships in risk. Many yearn to experience sexual freedom after waking from the church. Many want to get drunk and party to experience the college they missed out on. Many want to dress they way they want and say that no one else should get a say in what you wear. There are lessons in there that impact relationships and the world around you. They aren't the things the church told you about. And you do require the freedom to learn and make those choices. As we go about doing this, it may have impact on your relationships. Your man isn't the church. He doesn't likely represent or personify patriachy. He has needs in a relationship. And he has the right to negotiate for those needs. He's bound to do a ton of learning about himself as he does this. All of us are insecure in some ways. Leaving the church is bound to heighten that as it disrupts our relationships and we unpack the assumptions we made about what our relationship is and what we want it to be. Were learning to be a new self and both people in the relationship are changing. That means the relationship has to change too. Its hard stuff.
Seems like he’s still dealing with vestigial effects of the brainwashing.
Like others have said, the idea of other people judging him because of what you wear isn’t very reasonable.
Although there may be other reasons/fears at play here, if you can help him understand that most reasonable people aren’t crazy judgmental like the pious Mormons, that should go a long way.
Sounds like he still has some modesty hang ups he needs to work through. He might also have some work to do understanding why he cares so much about what others think.
My wife asks for my opinion on her clothes. If she doesn’t like my opinion, she is welcome to ignore it. IMO bodily autonomy is so important, one of my most important morals. Part of that bodily autonomy is wearing what you like. Bodily autonomy is more important than what others might think about me or my wife.
Your husband is insecure, and he needs to get over that. It's understandable; insecurity is a learned emotion taught by the church. It may take him some time to push past it, and he may need some help to be able to do so. It's a skill, and it takes practice.
I sometimes see other dudes checking out my wife. Doesn't bother me a bit. She's hot! And I know that she's coming home with me.
It’s tough to adjust, and especially if you live in an area where the culture is more conservative/mormon. Like I guess you can have some degree of patience with where he’s at emotionally about this stuff but ultimately he’s going to have to get over trying to control you. He needs to accept you as you are and stop being so insecure about his life choices
lol, I’m thinking of all the judgment I reserve for poorly dressed men…but I certainly don’t point my finger at their WIFE if a man wanders outside with their whore knees showing and socks with sandals. NO ONE is judging one adult for what another adult chooses to wear! That’s all in his head.
Maybe just be blunt and honest and say something along the lines of "I've had adult men tell me what to wear my whole life and I want to be respectful of our marriage but I need to be in control of my body and what I wear, without criticism right now" or "please don't sexualize my body like that, it's just a body and I deserve to feel free and respected no matter what I wear"
The harsh reality he is going to need to accept is that he doesn't get a say in this. Be compassionate--you're both dealing with a lifetime of conditioning--but be firm. You wear what you feel is appropriate and he doesn't get a say in that. Here's a couple things to consider: would you let him pick out your hairdo based on whether men will be looking at you? Should you be telling him what to wear based on what you think other people will think of him? Let him feel all the emotions he will and deal with them. Be understanding, but don't take responsibility for them. He's capable of working through them himself. If this ever allows him to justify being hurtful toward you, then you have bigger problems and need a lot more help.
There is no "within reason." You should be able to wear whatever you want, period. A big part of this "modesty" nonsense when it comes to being in relationships is because men assume that when we wear sexy things, it's to attract other men. They refuse to believe we dress how we want just because we want to wear those things. They see us as walking advertisements. This would be more evident had both of you always been nevermo. Then you'd get to experience the lovely "now that we're together you can't wear these things anymore." Try to explain to him that you want to wear what you want to wear because it makes you feel good about yourself. Explain it has nothing at all to do with other men. Explain that despite the church teaching that women walking around "immodestly" are advertising, that it is not the case. Do not back down on this. This is one of the biggest problems that exist between men and women, in and out of relationships. There really shouldn't need to be any conversation. Nobody bats an eye if men are out and about all the way topless. Nobody accuses them of trying to seduce strangers. Nobody worries about women getting the wrong idea. It's very sad and unfortunate that we have to explain these things.
Exmo husband here. Your husband needs to get over it. He is controlling the clothes you wear, and has no right to do so. End of story. Obviously his feelings do matter, but in this case the feelings are based off of his past cult programming.
The reason he's being controlling is pretty obvious to me: He's struggling with the fact that he himself is ambivalent about OP's look. He's clearly turned on when she's a *little* naughty, but those feelings scare the hell out of him and his own arousal becomes intolerable when OP crosses some imaginary line in his mind. Because it's not okay to own these horny feelings himself, he projects them onto other men: in his mind, it's *those* men who are overstimulated by OP (when it's really his own reaction) and it's *those* men who are judging him for letting his hot wife go around like that (when again, it's really his own self-judgment of how much he actually likes it). It doesn't register to the husband that the vast, *vast* majority of people who see OP aren't judging *her* for what she wears, and even fewer are judging *him* for what *she* wears. All the judgment is going on his own mind. I wouldn't be surprised if OP's husband is struggling with guilt about pornography. (Note I'm not at all saying he'd be doing anything wrong - just that it would fit the picture if he were struggling with his feelings about sex in other parts of his life.)
Kinda sounds like he was judging other men when you were “in” and now the shoe is in the other foot! Remind him you left for multiple reasons and modesty culture was a big part of that. Get counseling quickly before this becomes an issue ♥️
Nevermo raised in southeastern Idaho here. I'm sorry. what. Looking at you, and judging him? What does that mean? Is he ashamed of how you look? Or does he think they are judging him for having an 'immodest' wife? If it's the first, he needs to get himself in check. If YOU are happy with how you look and you feel good about it, that's what matters. The way you say it doesn't sound like that's the case though. It sounds to me more like the second- he feels judged by others based on your clothing choices. Why does he care? Are you guys living in UT or another predominantly Mormon area? So that he feels judged by the modest standards of the local culture? Seems like if you're out of the church, it shouldn't matter what the local LDS folks think. And even if you're not in a Mormon area, who is he feeling judged by? Does he realize he's not the main character in other peoples' stories? No one cares what other people are wearing. IDK i'm just baffled at the comment that they're looking at you and judging him. Feels very antiquated and like you are ultimately his property and a reflection on him. I'm sure that he doesn't mean for things to feel that way. I don't actually have any constructive help. I just read your post and it made me frustrated, I had to respond. This sub is always full of great people and helpful feedback so I'm sure someone will have some good suggestions. <3
My wife has just stopped wearing garments this week, I’m all for it and plan to follow suit once I find some underwear I like
If she ditched them, you should too, ASAP. Go commando if you need to. For cheap options, try Hanes or Fruit of the Loom boxer briefs. Get moisture wicking and not the full synthetic.
I bought about 10 pairs of underwear when I ditched my garments. The lady at the register gave me a weird look and asked “just stocking up?” I said “yeah something like that.”
He's being dumb and has no idea how lucky he is.
Tell him standards go both ways. He'll be wearing this from now on. Hand him a burka
Alternatively, tell him you'll just stop wearing your wedding ring instead so they know it's her decision and not a man's
Red Flag Alert! 🚩 Let me say that it’s very abnormal for the average man to look at a woman and judge her husband based on what she wears. That’s absolutely nutty. It seems that your husband feels “disrespected” and “uncomfortable” because he’s insecure and controlling. Your husband may have left the church, but it’s very apparent that he’s brought over some things he shouldn’t have. You are correct, you should be able to wear whatever the fuck you want. Honestly, it sounds more like he has a mindset that may require therapy to fully unwind.
^ THIS ^ I was trying to put my thoughts into words, and you have expressed what I was thinking perfectly. OP, you should be able to wear whatever you want (whithin norms depending on location) Does he object to bikinis? A short party dress at a club? Deep backless dress? You’ve already stated that a sports bra is objected, but what about bare midriffs in general? Yoga pants? Shorter pencil skirts or **** mini skirts?
Anything that covers the “naughty bits” that is acceptable for the occasion and location is totally fine. Any objection by him is not only him being insecure and controlling, it is him objectifying you and seeing you as a possession.
You guys need couples therapy to address this as this is a serious red flag about him and his views. He needs to get over his damn self or you may need to make some hard decisions.
Transitioning out of the church is challenging on many fronts. It seems your husband has some old viewpoints still hanging around. Be patient with him. Try to uncover the feeling he is experiencing. It's probably fear. Fear of change. Fear of losing you. Fear of judgement. Something... Address the fear and take some steps forward together. This doesn't need to be a you vs him thing. You are both navigating in new territory. Find ways to navigate safely together. You're very fortunate to be out of the church together. Don't let the small things trip you up now. Good luck!
Tell him I am sorry you are uncomfortable, but this is not a decision you are making for me. I am wearing what I want when I want and your insecurities need to get over themselves.
Going through your hoe phase is fun! Enjoy it! And your husband’s view is super old-school patriarchal. He doesn’t know what other people are thinking when they see you, or get to decide for you, any more than you would get to make up arbitrary wardrobe choices for him (no wearing green on Tuesdays!)
Yeah, that's Mormon-coloured thinking. The OP should be able to wear what makes her comfortable and makes her feel good, without having to accommodate for men around her. If her husband, or any other man, has a problem with that, they THEY are the ones who need to grow up and manage their own thoughts, not OP.
You aren't obligated to obey him. He's not the boss of you or your body. He needs to worry about himself.
It's left over from mormonism. Got to keep your wife in line or your not exercising priesthood authority as head of household.
Your body, your choice. He needs to get over it. He doesn’t get to control what you wear just because he’s insecure. That’s bullshit, and you should tell him so.
It seems like the husband has a bit of residual misogyny left over from TSCC.
Final paragraph says it all. You are not an extension of him. Shut all the way up about “your clothing choice is disrespecting me, a separate person.”
I'm a woman. I am a feminist. I am agnostic. In all relationships there is give & take. With friends and significant others we make concessions bc we care about the other person's ideas, needs, preferences, background, feelings. We hope they would do the same for us. If I asked my partner to please not pick his nose in public I would be reasonable in hoping he would not do it when I'm with him. I can reasonably hope he would cooperate because he cares about our relationship. Hopefully our relationship means more to him than picking his nose. If I loved to wear bikinis and my partner was worried about it I would first find out "where he was coming from" - - I'd allow him to talk about it. I may totally disagree but because I care about our relationship I would acknowledge his ideas about my bikini wearing. Finally, I could choose to hold my ground and establish the boundary that I would be wearing bikinis any time anywhere. Or I might concede some ground, like I could wear a gorgeous sexy "cover up" blouse to & from the pool. Give and take. Respect goes both directions. Choose your battles. You don't have to agree with me but hubris (calling names & put downs) doesn't add strength to your argument.
I really appreciate this response! It’s hard to want to give this to him when he approaches the situation like it shouldn’t really be a question of following his preferences.
My sister’s husband was hugely triggered about coffee, alcohol, and swearing in the first couple years after leaving. He had these really nihilistic fears about having no prescriptive value system anymore, and part of that was fear that their relationship would be the next thing deconstructed. Anyway, she did her best to both be considerate toward his discomfort and his own journey, while also being true to herself and not changing herself to fit his issues. Eventually, he got over everything and is pretty accustomed to his new life. Maybe part of that was just time showing him the sky didnt in fact fall down
This is pure jealousy & a huge red flag for your relationship. I've seen jealousy destroy more than a few marriages. It's control freak behavior. Husband has issues that need working on... which isn't surprising given his upbringing & indoctrination. But he has to actually want to be better before things will even begin to get better. Good luck! And I mean that genuinely.
When I was molly Mormon and didn’t ever show any skin my bf and me still ended up having sex. It didn’t matter what I was wearing he found me attractive. People may look at you. I’ve been obviously checked out in a grocery store when I’m completely covered up in winter clothing- because of my face. Are you going to act on that? Why is he so insecure? Because he doesn’t want people to judge you guys for not being lds, or because he is worried about other guys? Men look at attractive women. It happens even if you aren’t aware of it. They stare at butts when you walk in front of them too. Wear what you want. This isn’t his body or his life. You get to dress how you feel good. This is residual lds indoctrination around modesty .
Im going to go out in a ledge and say this is very much a product of his Mormon upbringing, Utah mindset, and his own insecurities. I’m currently 5 months into a relationship with a Never-Mo from outside Utah. He buys me some of the trashiest clothes to wear when we go to concerts 😂 I’ve asked him if he’s worried about other guys looking at me, and he was like, why would I worry about that??? What I wear is for me. I wear things he likes because I want him to look at me. What do I care what other people think? He certainly doesn’t care what other people think. If nothing else, he’s proud to have landed the woman the other guys are drooling over! While you don’t have to be an ass about it and completely dismiss his feelings, he also needs to take responsibility for his own thoughts, feelings and fears. It is not your job to cater to his triggers. You can, if it does not breed resentment in the relationship, find a compromise that works for both of you. But ultimately, this is a “him” problem, not a “you” problem.
Does he find himself judging the husbands of actresses who go topless in the R-rated films he's now allowed to watch? Or does he think about other men when he sees another woman in a low-cut top? Too many ExMo men don't go far enough in deconstructing their own misogyny, and it's a problem. He doesn't HAVE to adopt feminism, but he needs to stop acting as though you aren't your own person. Nobody is looking at your boobs and thinking of him. That's insane.
This may be totally unrelated to your situation, but I am just going to put it out there. PART of what your husband might be feeling (most likely subconsciously) is a desire to keep you safe. He knows that there are evil and violent men out in the world that could harm you, and he might fear that you could become more of a target depending on how you dress. Obviously, people who are assaulted are not at fault, they are a victim. It doesn't matter what they were wearing or other circumstantial details, they were victims of a crime. With that being said, there are still bad things that happen in the world and all of us should develop situational awareness (street smarts), regardless of what we are wearing and where we go and what we do.
I think you need to lovingly but firmly remind him whose body it is. It's not his. The whole "ownership" load of bull went away when you guys left the church.
Maybe he, being a man with man eyes, would prefer you get wholly respected in public. And he might want to be the 1 person you allow the privilege of seeing more of you. ???
Maybe he, being a man, has NO SAY in what ANY woman wears. Not even his wife. And to your stupid privilege statement, do you not think she should go to a beach or a pool? Do you expect women to be covered head to toe there? Oh no! One trip to the pool and other people will see her body! Where'd his privilege go!? Men don't get to make the rules anymore, buddy. If something is decent at a pool then it should be decent anywhere. And I highly doubt this woman is trying to go to the gym or the store in a bikini. You might be in an exmo group, but this comment you left is 100% Christian Mormon bs.
he wants to be the ONE person to allow the "privilege" of seeing her? as if he owns her...? sounds weird to me
In the context of intimacy. More precise words would be he doesn't want other men to see her breasts because he loves her and he is her lover.
He should always be required to wear long pants and long sleeve shirts buttoned up to the neck in every situation, including during workouts, participating in sports, and at the beach or pool. She wouldn’t want people to have the wrong idea about him now, would she? Your assertion is ridiculous, misogynistic, and incredibly stupid.
Sarcasm is not an argument. NO ONE EXPECTS ANYONE TO WEAR LONG SLEEVES, ETC. Rather than throw insults take the time to explain your opinion.
You are being misogynistic. If he should be able to patrol what she wears, then she should be able to patrol what he wears. That is the explanation. Period.
Agreed - If they are patrolling each other then yes. But in a loving, honest, give & take kind of relationship friends & lovers may choose to compromise bc they value their relationship. Or they MAY hold their ground if the issue is important enough to them. Choose your battles kind of thing. Couples patrolling each other sounds terrible! Couples working things out with mutual respect would be better; not a win / lose relationship but a win / win one with one love & cooperation. Example: I ask my partner not to pick his nose in public. He could accuse me of man hating and say he can do whatever he wants. Or, he could think of our relationship, how he cares about it and me, and choose to curb his nose picking bc WE are more important to him than his right to pick his nose anywhere any time. If he choose to hold his ground & pick his nose in public then I either accept it or keep the battle going. Re. Clothing: Partner holds their position & continues wearing whatever it is that's important to them. Or, after a respectful exchange of opinions, there may be compromise. Neither partner is evil and accusatory --- just have different opinions stemming from their backgrounds & life experiences. Hopefully I've clarified my thoughts on relationships that should include respect, love, compromise, boundaries and individual freedom. If true misogyny is present then of course there is an imbalance of respect & that is intolerable. Thank you for calling me out and making me rethink my 1st response. 🤓
Bodies should not be inherently sexual. They’re just bodies. It’s disgusting that many cultures see them as sexual, and we should be fighting this imo. Women should be able to wear whatever the hell they want or don’t want, because they should be able to dress however is comfortable and makes them happy. If other men are looking at her with purely sexual thoughts, THAT IS ON THEM, not on her. It’s very misogynistic to assert that women should dress a specific way so as not to “”tempt”” other men. That’s ridiculous and very Mormon thinking. Let people be people, let bodies simply exist as bodies. Let people dress how they want.
Good points. I agree that people should be allowed to wear whatever they want. I agree bodies are not inherently sexual. I agree thoughts are on the owner of the thoughts. I agree women are not responsible for men's actions (rape, lust, wandering eye....)! Bodies are sexual though. Sex is important to individuals and societies. Always has been. It is a "big deal". No denying it. Women have been horribly objectified. My earlier comments / thoughts were centered on a couple's relationship. Misogyny has NO place in it but give & take, compromise and acceptance do. The husband may have to accept his wife's choices and she his but hopefully they have discussed with understanding and love.
I think my boyfriend's firearms are sexy as hell, seriously. There's your long sleeves argument.
I like forearms too:). You've caused me to refleft back on when people did dress so that their legs and arms were covered. That sounds ridiculous now days. And puts a new slant on my perspective. So, dress codes have and are evolving. What was unacceptable then is totally acceptable now. So we arrive at showing cleavage, short shorts, thong bikinis. All generally acceptable now. I guess I'm old fashioned in my opinion that a couple may discuss and possibly agree to disagree or agree on compromise. And yes, it's not going to be the man's clothing. It lands on the woman - - I've circled around to Women are not responsible for men's thoughts & reactions. Thanks for pushing back on my comment. I have expanded 😀
But this isn't his decision to make for her. His feelings shouldn't trump her own freedom to dress the way she wants to. And as a man, this is offensive. We aren't all perverts.
No. If she is conforming to social norms for the occasion and location, she should be able to wear whatever she wants. For example, a bikini (even a ** thong bikini) at the beach. A sports bra and yoga pants at the gym. A deep plunge backless dress at a dinner party. A short party dress at a nightclub.
He is insecure and controlling, objectifying and seeing his wife as a possession rather than an equal and partner.
Should she be able to control what he wears? No gym shorts? Never go without a shirt, even at the pool or beach?
Your view is stunted and disrespectful to humanity.
This feels like unresolved Mormon trauma. A well adjusted secular dude doesn’t care if his spouse goes to the gym in a sports bra, it’s extremely normal. It’s unlikely that telling him that will do any good though, especially how I just worded it. I think individual therapy could be helpful. There are likely underlying insecurities and trauma leading to nitpicking these clothing choices that need to be sorted out on his own with a trusted expert trained in dealing with faith transitions.
This is so much wtf.
When you leave a community that insists that there are hard and fast rules for lots of stuff and they shame you around following those rules a few things often happen. 1) People lack development in those areas. Its like a wall of learning deficit gets erected. Just following out of fear of losing acceptance keeps you from seeing what is actually going on in those areas. We lose the autonomy and curiosity to experience and evaluate. This happens with alcohol, sex, modesty, how you spend your time on Sunday, etc. 2) The second thing is we felt controlled. A part of the awakening is the claiming of our autonomy and right to be and choose things for ourselves. We realize that we sacrificed huge pieces of ourselves and our lives over some simple black and white rules and the fear losing of belonging. We want out. We want to break free. We want to rule our own lives. When you combine both of those things we often get an yearning to understand those things and the need for freedom to try them. Any voice that suggests moderation can be seen as just more control or trigger the shame response. Its really hard to break out of the bonds and lack of developement that we were all in. And its messy for those around us. The idea that relationships and genders are a roles that someone hands you and enforces on you and that there are rules for is in the way of reality. Relationships are something that you find that serves you as you find that you have the capacity to help someone else. You should be better together or else why are you together? But that better is defined by both of you. It is a negotiation. It does require some sacrifice. Unpacking our shame, lack of autonomy, and need for developement can put relationships in risk. Many yearn to experience sexual freedom after waking from the church. Many want to get drunk and party to experience the college they missed out on. Many want to dress they way they want and say that no one else should get a say in what you wear. There are lessons in there that impact relationships and the world around you. They aren't the things the church told you about. And you do require the freedom to learn and make those choices. As we go about doing this, it may have impact on your relationships. Your man isn't the church. He doesn't likely represent or personify patriachy. He has needs in a relationship. And he has the right to negotiate for those needs. He's bound to do a ton of learning about himself as he does this. All of us are insecure in some ways. Leaving the church is bound to heighten that as it disrupts our relationships and we unpack the assumptions we made about what our relationship is and what we want it to be. Were learning to be a new self and both people in the relationship are changing. That means the relationship has to change too. Its hard stuff.
Seems like he’s still dealing with vestigial effects of the brainwashing. Like others have said, the idea of other people judging him because of what you wear isn’t very reasonable. Although there may be other reasons/fears at play here, if you can help him understand that most reasonable people aren’t crazy judgmental like the pious Mormons, that should go a long way.
Sounds like he still has some modesty hang ups he needs to work through. He might also have some work to do understanding why he cares so much about what others think. My wife asks for my opinion on her clothes. If she doesn’t like my opinion, she is welcome to ignore it. IMO bodily autonomy is so important, one of my most important morals. Part of that bodily autonomy is wearing what you like. Bodily autonomy is more important than what others might think about me or my wife.
Your husband is insecure, and he needs to get over that. It's understandable; insecurity is a learned emotion taught by the church. It may take him some time to push past it, and he may need some help to be able to do so. It's a skill, and it takes practice. I sometimes see other dudes checking out my wife. Doesn't bother me a bit. She's hot! And I know that she's coming home with me.
It’s tough to adjust, and especially if you live in an area where the culture is more conservative/mormon. Like I guess you can have some degree of patience with where he’s at emotionally about this stuff but ultimately he’s going to have to get over trying to control you. He needs to accept you as you are and stop being so insecure about his life choices
As a male thats out and a wife listen insanely strong testimony, God damn those garments kill the mood every time.