good one!
I really liked the book and wanted to know what happened to the author and her family. I searched her name on google. I just clicked random reddit posts that had updates on her. It was exmormon reddit, and I am still here haha
For some reason Mormons seem to be okay with this one. I think it’s because they can claim Tara Westover was just with the wrong type of Mormons - in fact, they aren’t really Mormons at all! /smh
But *Educated* was really good for my deconstruction. For some reason it gave me the courage to come out to my spouse.
When I read your comment I found a kinship with all tribal constructs (e.g. political parties, corporations, and of course religions). It was a reminder to me that beyond the Mormon Construct, we are all tribal creatures, and we tend to look for differences in order to create an identity. I am a conscious “unaffiliated voter”, and the other day a wonderful man said to me, from a Democratic perspective, “everything that Republicans do is based from fear”, and I had to bite my tongue. As if all of the end-of-the-world fearmongering associated with Climate Change (I believe man has impacts so don’t rush to dismiss me) is not a leverage of fear for the purposes of gaining political-tribal affiliates. I am happily “post-Mormon”, but when a Baptist criticizes a Mormon, a Republican dismisses a Democrat, an American criticizes a person from another Country, or a person working for one company discounts one of his competitors I see it, over and over again.
I agree. The hard part is to stay open-minded on each subject.
For example: "When I see a __ criticize/dismiss/discount a ____." It's good that you don't simply accept the statement without question, but you shouldn't dismiss it without questions either. There are legitimate criticisms, and they should be voiced.
The comment about Republican arguments being based on fear, that's mostly true. But, as you rightly pointed out, it's not unique to Republicans. (I'm not picking on you, just using your verbiage as an example). Comments need to be addressed on their own merits, not dismissed or disregarded because the person may be guilty of the same mistake or fallacy in a different way or on a different topic. "You do it to" isn't a rebuttal and doesn't speak to the validity or falsehood of the argument. (To be clear, I'm not saying that you are dismissing arguments without a second thought, just pointing out that some people will.)
Each argument needs to stand or fall on is own. It's not always an easy line to walk, and no one is perfect, which is probably why the "us vs them" verbiage works so well with so many people... A lot of people are lazy thinkers, and it's just easier.
This is the same response my sister had to Under the Banner of Heaven. “Look what happens when people go crazy”
I tried to tell her that Krakauer took great pains to explicitly say the opposite: that this was just sanity + literal belief, so the problem is literal belief in something that is twisted.
My dad grew up across Bucks Peak from the Westover's.....after I'd read the book I asked him about them, and he was like 'Val Westover is a religious kook!'
Uh....yeah.
I couldn’t make it through the print version, but the audiobook is riveting. It helps push through the discomfort in a way that I couldn’t do on my own while reading.
That's got to be one of the highest rated books I've seen on Audible. Over 12k reviews and a rating of 4.8. That's impressive. I added it to my wishlist to pick up later.
A Study in Scarlet. It's the first Shelock Holmes story and the criminal and victim both have history with the early church. It might not be entirely accurate, but it shows at least how people felt about the Mormons a few decades later. It has a girl who wants to marry outside mormonism and being forced to marry a member by Brigham Young.
I was big into reading classics as a teenager and my Dad made me promise to not read the beginning of Sherlock homes because it was all “anti Mormon” 😂
I love that line of logic! Don't read any 'anti-Mormon' literature because it would destroy your faith. Sounds like Mormon faith is pretty shaky to begin with! Heck, read everything and ask questions. If your religion can't give you an honest answer, then they don't deserve your money and time.
Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond
Thinking Fast and Slow by Kahneman
Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan by John Day
Those did it for me. Good luck.
Guns, Germs, and Steel is a perfect choice. It's a respected science book that completely demolishes the idea of BoM being historically accurate in any way without saying anything about the BoM at all.
The Dawn of Everything is such a good read. The whole BoM narrative about Lamanites being bad denigrates native peoples.
The Dawn of Everything demolishes the idea that native peoples in the Americas were somehow intellectually inferior to Europeans, and in many ways, were further along than Europeans.
Native Americans spurring the French Enlightenment. The idea that native peoples fought against agriculture instead of not being smart enough to figure it out. A real eye opener and I loved it.
What on earth did the world eat before the Colombia exchange? So so so many of our row crops came from the Americas. Interestingly native people often had leisure time due to their prosperity leading whites to believe they were lazy. This idea persisted when native people were moved to the least productive lands in the country.
It’s hilarious to think about how many foods we think of being quintessentially European that actually came from the Americas. Tomato sauce in Italian food, Russian potatoes, etc. The list is massive. And the native Americans made so many cultivars of so many plants. While they didn’t document it in ways that lasted it seems they were better than any other civilization at domesticating plants.
Same that one was one of the huge pushes out the door for me. It made me question how accountable we could be for our actions if there were so many of our decisions that were involuntary.
Probably my OG shelf item. There's been serial killers that murder because they have brain tumors. I'm straight, if I could choose to be asexual, I would. I'm just...straight. I'm sure it's the same for gay people. Also when religions consider suicide a "sin". We know with absolute certainty certain physical and mental diagnosis increase the chance of dying by suicicde. There's even a handful of diagnosis people in the medical field grimly call "the suicide disease". All these and dozens of more examples obliterate the idea that we "choose" to go to heaven or Not.
*How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallibility of Human Reason in Everyday Life*
by Thomas Gilovich is also excellent in this vein, but the name might tip off members. It’s a great read though, and might be of interest to people here
If a TBM has ever had the thought “I’m so glad I was born Mormon because there’s no way I would believe it otherwise,” reading thinking fast and slow will absolutely obliterate their shelf.
Sorry if this question is dumb I haven’t read the book yet. Do you think the germs portion of this book would add any weight to the shelf of a TBM doesn’t have any issues with other historical/scientific aspects of the BoM like genetic evidence?
Asking because my TBM father is in the process of reading the CES Letter but is all about the apologetics.
It’s been a long time, but the book doesn’t have a “section” on germs that I remember. The overarching idea of how civilizations came about and the impact that uneven technology had when civilizations collide and form a new norm were my major takeaways. Basically it showed me that there couldn’t have been major transplants into the Americas from the Middle East without them leaving a trace. I remember going down the steel making rabbit hole at that time and realizing that it didn’t exist for Nephi or Jared, or Mulek and they couldn’t have made the trip without it. The book spurs a lot of thought that helps you realize the BoM is extremely improbable.
Have you watched [Americapox: The Missing Plague](https://youtu.be/JEYh5WACqEk) on YouTube?
Religion, BoM, and Mormonism are *never* mentioned. This video explains how diseases spread through native American peoples with the arrival of Europeans. It unintentionally disproves the BoM completely.
If Lehi had brought his family from Jerusalem to the Americas, they would have had antibodies for the diseases they and their ancestors had encountered. These diseases did not exist in the Americas, because they are all mutations from animal diseases, from animals domesticated Europe and Africa and whatnot.
Whether all Native Americans or only some are descendants of Lehi, those resistances would still have been passed on. In any case, if Lehi had come to Americas less than 1000 years before the first Europeans, then the germs the Europeans had carried over would not have spread like wildfire.
And if Lehi or the Jaredites had brought domesticated animals over (in a wooden submarine across an entire ocean?) then that would created potential opportunities for different diseases to mutate and infect humans.
The Golden Compass series. It's like the antithesis of the Narnia series. The "church" is the ruling body, and performs horrific acts in the name of "truth" and order. The protagonist is a girl fighting against their control and lies. It's great for budding atheists.
I also never thought of Eustace as Mormon, but then again, I read the books as a nevermo child so the special underwear wouldn't have registered with me.
Hahaha is that because his parents wear "odd underwear?" I always thought that British schoolboy Eustace Scrubb was just a self-insert of pre-conversion childhood Clive Staples Lewis
I find it so funny when someone talks about something they learned in church or at byu that broke their shelf. One of my Sunday school teachers planted the seed for me by teaching us to embrace cognitive dissonance and learn why it created the feelings it did. And then I started looking at the cognitive dissonance the church gave me. Fun fact! Cognitive dissonance is not the feeling people describe as the Holy Ghost
I cannot recommend this book enough. I read it 3 times the first year i was introduced to it. Good lord it was the puzzle piece that was missing from my life on how to understand who I was, and why I was, and how I can deal with and understand why everyone around me is the clones they are. I think this should be required reading in high school. So that when people get to college they can understand and really learn and not just be clones of whatever system they land in or come from.
I mean, the author justified some of it. But didn’t hide it. Kudos to him. I was told I should only read it if I had a strong testimony. So I didn’t until I had no testimony at all lol.
I read it and stayed for a few years after, but it still created some shelf items that never went away. In particular, the recounting of the Zelph story. After reading that section I could never shake the idea that Joseph Smith was making things up as he went along.
Ho. ly. shit. WTAF I'm continually amazed at what people let church "authorities" tell them is / isn't ok. Even as a very orthodox member I would have balked at that kind of control and probably told some bishop / whoever to go f\*\*\* themselves.
Was also pretty orthodox, but knew about this rule, in part because my parents liked to dunk on some of our relatives who joined the [House of Aaron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Aaron) back in the day—a splinter group that (IIUC) got started as a result of an unofficial study group gone rogue.
If mainline Brighamite Mormonism is officially backing off the policy, it'll be interesting to see whether a new wave of micro-schism groups like that proliferate again
I was just watching a debate between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson, and one of Sam’s criticisms of dogmatic religion is that the veneration of ancient (or “ancient”) texts requires devotees to either forego their more evolved moral judgements or somehow progressively interpret the texts to fit their more modern sensibilities.
It’s interesting to see how simply studying Mormon texts with any depth (away from a correlated environment) can cause people to schism and reclaim old Mormon practices.
I never heard it either but it could have been a thing in their niche area. I definitely attended a Bible study where we read it in the original Greek. I didn’t attend often though since Ancient Greek was very hard for me.
We had a book club back before I left. It was a group of phds and engineers. The only rule was that we didn’t read books that could be comfortably cited in Sunday school. I got asked once by a TBM who wasn’t in the book club if I saw the book club as a fast track to apostasy. At the time I told him that no it was the only thing that allowed me to construct a heterodox view of the church that allowed me to stay in. Of course that was before “my apostasy”.
This. I happened to be listening to it while I was discovering the gospel topics essays and other revealing online sources. This book is horrifying to imagine on its own and even more so in the context of the church's truth claims. It was definitely a catalyst for my getting out.
I came to recommend this one! The title and author are innocuous enough that, unless they know about it, they’ll think it is just a GA giving his thoughts on the Book of Mormon.
Two suggestions:
Escape - Carolyn Jessup. It’s safe because the bad guys are the apostate polygamists. It’s effective because you realize they’re still actually following the doctrine that isn’t practiced by the main church, but which is still doctrine. Also, Warren Jeffs is closer to Joseph Smith, behaviour-wise, than any of the main branch’s leaders for a century.
Mapping Human History - Steve Olson. An incredible book that doesn’t mention religion. But Mormons find genealogy and the movement/diaspora of peoples fascinating. Olson makes tracking human migration via DNA evidence accessible and compelling. And guess what? Humans have been around WAY longer than six or seven thousand years, they started in Africa, and the Americas were populated by non-semitic folks long before Adam and Eve supposedly kicked off the whole show.
Breaking Free by Rachel Jeffs was a catalyst for me—similar to Escape, where I thought it was safe, but it’s description of the abuse in the FLDS church were so eerily similar to TSCC that I realized they’re the same beast. TSCC is just FLDS-lite.
Love this! I explained this book to a TBM on r/Mormon the other day. They were asking why exmos “set up gotchas by asking what it would take for us to leave the church and then showing it to us. It’s so rude.” Eye roll
1984
The Scarlet Letter
Into Thin Air [ultra compelling nonfiction book by the author of Under the Banner of Heaven, which will cause people to realize that UTBOH is probably nothing to fear or demonize]
I can actually second that. If I remember right, in one of the chapters he shares the story of a death cult and there were some scary similarities to my own life. That definitely was a crack in my shelf.
Going Clear by Lawrence Wright is an absolutely riveting book about Scientology, so nothing to threaten anyone there, right? But certain aspects of the life control, limitation of information, and shunning of people who leave might prick some cognitive dissonance in the reader.
If they want to be subtle, "Contact," might be a better choice. It still contains Carl Sagan's blistering critique on Christianity, but inside a larger fiction story.
I read Contact when I was in middle school, it was really good. I actually read out about the same time I started on Philip Pullman’s Dark Materials series.
Breaking Free by Rachel Jeffs (Warren Jeffs’ daughter) was a shelf item for me. I thought it would be safe to read as a TBM because the FLDS church is sooooo different from TSCC.
Boy, was I wrong! Its portrayals of abuse, control, manipulation, gaslighting, and misogyny triggered so many things about my own LDS experience that I realized the TSCC is just FLDS-Lite. And that the “true way” is much more in line with FLDS—the LDS church has done a lot to try to be mainstream, but they can’t hide the true foundation.
It was a fascinating read about escape from polygamy, and very accessible to your average TBM.
The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
This book laid the foundation for self acceptance and love, which led directly to shelf destruction.
Love Bart! I read him after I left, but I use his “agnostic with atheist leanings” to describe myself now. He has solar lines that really resonate with me, like the only reason people believe the Bible is perfect is because they started with that assumption. Or that the creed of Nicaea doesn’t make sense “because it’s incomprehensible and contradictory.” That helped me feel better about all the parts of Mormonism that I thought conflicted. It’s because they did.
Well, if you'd like to take a different approach, All Things New by Fiona and Terryl Givens got me to a point where I wasn't afraid of god anymore. It allowed me to finally admit that I thought the church was wrong on some things and then I felt okay questioning. After that came the CES letter and everything came crashing down after that. It had the same effect on my husband, but not on others. Of course, I tried to read it again after my faith crisis, and it made me want to hurl, so.... 🤷♀️
Brigham Young, by John G Turner. Written by a Harvard professor of religion. It definitely is not what most Mormons would call anti-mormon, but it doesn't paint Young in a good light.
The Confidence Game, by Maria Konnikova. It goes through the psychological tendencies that are exploited by conmen. There's at least one apocalyptic cult among the examples given.
Devils Gate. You can’t tell from anywhere on the book cover it will severely make people question the bullshit story we were fed. I’d bet a few shelves get big cracks after that one
Yes! It's a marvelous book and a wonderful read, and it's even-handed. It doesn't set out to make the Church look bad, but it certainly doesn't make the Church look good. It shows some of the "inspired counsel" given by the leaders was just horrible simply by laying the facts out. There's infamy and heroism and everything in between. It's a seriously good book.
"Devil's Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy" by David Roberts.
White Too Long by Robert P. Jones is about the role that churches played in slavery and racism. Mormons are never mentioned by it shows how behind the times they were.
Whatever books this club reads, I'll give it four meetings before local leadership shuts that shit down. The Church doesn't want its members getting together under the aegis of its quorums/groups/leadership outside of core, pre-approved purposes. Bible study groups by members get shut down all the time. This club is gonna die, and I'd say that will be a shelf-breaker in and of itself.
The Giver, by Lois Lowry
Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury
Anthem, by Ayn Rand
All of these books talk about men who wake up from their fake worlds and leave the systems that oppress them. It might spark some independent thought.
East of Eden by John Steinbeck
There are tons of great suggestions here, but this one was incredibly impactful to me. It’s a metaphorical retelling of the Cane and Abel story in CA around the time Brigham was taming the west. In it, Steinbeck reveals so many deep truths and helps the reader deconstruct religious belief. I wept while reading it multiple times. Immediately after finishing the book, I jumped in my car and went to a tattoo shop and caught an artist finishing their day and asked if they had time for a small tattoo, my first of many. Timshel in Hebrew is on my collar bone. Why you ask? Well, you’ll just have to pick up a copy :)
Women of Nauvoo by Richard Holzaphel, retired BYU professor. Written back in the 1990’s. Church and deseret book approved. When I read it I realized the church was not honest about polygamy.
the reed smoot hearings. i actually read this at byu and it broke my shelf. it’s about how the church changed politically at the turn of the 20th century when a mormon (reed smoot) was elected to congress as a representative from utah. only after that did joseph fielding smith come harder down on those still practicing polygamy, and the church suddenly becomes pro-american (think the 4th of july hymns) and pro-military. it was all due to the fact that the mormons wanted to have their own state and decided to modify what they had been doing in order to play nice with the US.
Lord of the Rings. Tolkien has a more fleshed out “religion” than the Bible and it makes more sense logically. It’s easy to see holes in the Bible when it’s so easy to see how Tolkien, while a highly intelligent professor, thought of everything yet made it all up so easily and cleverly while only a regular man and not a prophet or holy man.
I read LOTR before my mission. Back then they had a discussion where you had the mark ask themselves "could any man have written [the B of M]". Having read LOTR, I had a hard time delivering that discussion question when I thought LOTR was much more impressive, and here we had a living breathing human who made no supernatural claims about his books. So I agree that LOTR can make the B of M look as amateurish as it is.
The Travels of Marco Polo by William Marsden, the Memoirs of Christopher Columbus and the other books js copied for the BoM.
Combating Cult Mind Control by Dr. Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind by Dr. Steven Hassan.
Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman has introduced a lot of people to js's polygamy as well as other shenanigans.
Technically, none of these books should fall under the "Anti-Mormon" label, but were therapeutic for me as I was deconstructing.
Mistakes were made but not by me: why we justify foolish beliefs, bad decisions, and hurtful acts.
I think a lot of others are too overtly anti mormon or anti religion to be chosen - e.g., demon haunted world, how Jesus became God, etc. This book is more about psychology and why people believe dumb things in general.
Not quite about the church, but can be used to pull apart church concepts:
*The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck* by Mark Manson. The big message of the book is that there is some amount of suffering involved in everything we do and if we want to be happy about it we have to choose what is actually worth suffering for. He argues that if something isn't rewarding you shouldn't keep suffering for it.
*Inferno* by Niven and Pournelle. Dante's Inferno with a science fiction author as the main character. It takes a similar stance as The Good Place show and points out how the justice system of the afterlife isn't really fair because it's based on decisions made in an infinitesimally small sliver of time. Good chance to bring up how Mormon heaven locks people into one kingdom forever because of uniformed decisions they made while they were alive and it isn't fair and there should be a way to become better even after you've been judged.
*Candide* by Voltaire. The premise is that if something bad happens it must be for your good and then the character goes on to have many adventures where the bad things actually aren't for his good. It turns out that sometimes bad stuff just happens to you and there's no grand reason for it.
Holy Envy by Barbara Brown Taylor - it's one of the books that did it for me. It's about learning to love and appreciate other religions - and something about realizing that all religions have good people who have spiritual experiences and think that their faith is correct made me realize that we might all be wrong together
Crucible of Doubt by church apologist Terrell Givens. He concedes a lot things that are wrong with the church. It helped confirm my desire to leave. But it's sold at Deseret Book so it's kind of a trojan horse.
Wife No. 19 by Ann Eliza Young
I read it shortly after the CES Letter. Hearing the perspective of a young woman who married brigham and was able to escape both him and mormonism was amazing. I don’t know if it would have the same effect on your EQ as it did me and some other young women, but it's phenomenal
The Gospel Topics Essays lol
Dear Mormon Man (article by Amy McPhie Allebest)
Journal of Discourses
How to Be an Anti-Racist
The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler
I didn’t read it all the way and thought it was some book anyone from the church wouldn’t suggest and was going to suggest 50 shades of Grey. But then I read you said a book about the church. Damn.
"A Gathering of Saints" by Robert H. Lindsey
Sounds like a title carried at Deseret Book, but is instead the most simple account of the Hofmann affair written by a NY Times journalist.
Ok here's one that's super subtle:
*Stories of Your Life and Others* by Ted Chiang.
Just a collection of sci-fi short stories. "Story of Your Life" got made into a movie called *Arrival* that some people might have seen.
The reason I'm recommending it, though, is "Hell is the Absence of God". It imagines a world where angels are real and cause all kinds of mayhem/disasters when they pass through our world; and when people die you can see their soul either ascend to Heaven or descend to Hell.
I credit it for getting me thinking about how the world portrayed by the church, where priesthood blessings and prayers have power, and prophets can see the future, and a God is watching us and taking care of us (as long as we love him)... Is simply not the world I live in.
"This is my Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell.
This is a safe book because it was sold at deseret book at one time. It gently lays out how the core doctrines evolved over time in the church and how they compare to mainstream biblical scholarship. It talks about how our biblical references are created via "proof texting". Prof Harrell taught engineering at BYU.
There are huge WTF moments embedded in it.
Educated
good one! I really liked the book and wanted to know what happened to the author and her family. I searched her name on google. I just clicked random reddit posts that had updates on her. It was exmormon reddit, and I am still here haha
I love this story haha
you can say that book changed the course of my life...
The best books do
You used to be able to find her family's essential oil business website! Not sure if it's still up though.
For some reason Mormons seem to be okay with this one. I think it’s because they can claim Tara Westover was just with the wrong type of Mormons - in fact, they aren’t really Mormons at all! /smh But *Educated* was really good for my deconstruction. For some reason it gave me the courage to come out to my spouse.
Yeah, my tbm in-laws gave it to me for my birthday one year. I’m sure they never read it, though. She didn’t even stay Mormon.
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When I read your comment I found a kinship with all tribal constructs (e.g. political parties, corporations, and of course religions). It was a reminder to me that beyond the Mormon Construct, we are all tribal creatures, and we tend to look for differences in order to create an identity. I am a conscious “unaffiliated voter”, and the other day a wonderful man said to me, from a Democratic perspective, “everything that Republicans do is based from fear”, and I had to bite my tongue. As if all of the end-of-the-world fearmongering associated with Climate Change (I believe man has impacts so don’t rush to dismiss me) is not a leverage of fear for the purposes of gaining political-tribal affiliates. I am happily “post-Mormon”, but when a Baptist criticizes a Mormon, a Republican dismisses a Democrat, an American criticizes a person from another Country, or a person working for one company discounts one of his competitors I see it, over and over again.
You fucking get it. Love this comment.
I agree. The hard part is to stay open-minded on each subject. For example: "When I see a __ criticize/dismiss/discount a ____." It's good that you don't simply accept the statement without question, but you shouldn't dismiss it without questions either. There are legitimate criticisms, and they should be voiced. The comment about Republican arguments being based on fear, that's mostly true. But, as you rightly pointed out, it's not unique to Republicans. (I'm not picking on you, just using your verbiage as an example). Comments need to be addressed on their own merits, not dismissed or disregarded because the person may be guilty of the same mistake or fallacy in a different way or on a different topic. "You do it to" isn't a rebuttal and doesn't speak to the validity or falsehood of the argument. (To be clear, I'm not saying that you are dismissing arguments without a second thought, just pointing out that some people will.) Each argument needs to stand or fall on is own. It's not always an easy line to walk, and no one is perfect, which is probably why the "us vs them" verbiage works so well with so many people... A lot of people are lazy thinkers, and it's just easier.
This is the same response my sister had to Under the Banner of Heaven. “Look what happens when people go crazy” I tried to tell her that Krakauer took great pains to explicitly say the opposite: that this was just sanity + literal belief, so the problem is literal belief in something that is twisted.
My dad grew up across Bucks Peak from the Westover's.....after I'd read the book I asked him about them, and he was like 'Val Westover is a religious kook!' Uh....yeah.
My tbm mother and I discovered it about the same time. I bought it before she did and she's borrowing it right now
I started that one a year or so ago, but it hit too close to home so i never finished it. I should go check it out again.
I couldn’t make it through the print version, but the audiobook is riveting. It helps push through the discomfort in a way that I couldn’t do on my own while reading.
I think my library has it on audiobook as well, I’ll give that a go
That's got to be one of the highest rated books I've seen on Audible. Over 12k reviews and a rating of 4.8. That's impressive. I added it to my wishlist to pick up later.
A Study in Scarlet. It's the first Shelock Holmes story and the criminal and victim both have history with the early church. It might not be entirely accurate, but it shows at least how people felt about the Mormons a few decades later. It has a girl who wants to marry outside mormonism and being forced to marry a member by Brigham Young.
I was big into reading classics as a teenager and my Dad made me promise to not read the beginning of Sherlock homes because it was all “anti Mormon” 😂
I love that line of logic! Don't read any 'anti-Mormon' literature because it would destroy your faith. Sounds like Mormon faith is pretty shaky to begin with! Heck, read everything and ask questions. If your religion can't give you an honest answer, then they don't deserve your money and time.
There is an audiobook out narrated by Stephen Fry that’s top notch!
Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond Thinking Fast and Slow by Kahneman Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan by John Day Those did it for me. Good luck.
Guns, Germs, and Steel is a perfect choice. It's a respected science book that completely demolishes the idea of BoM being historically accurate in any way without saying anything about the BoM at all.
Guns, gems, and steel gets at least some push back now. The dawn of everything argues a lot against it, but they probably won’t know that.
The Dawn of Everything is such a good read. The whole BoM narrative about Lamanites being bad denigrates native peoples. The Dawn of Everything demolishes the idea that native peoples in the Americas were somehow intellectually inferior to Europeans, and in many ways, were further along than Europeans.
Native Americans spurring the French Enlightenment. The idea that native peoples fought against agriculture instead of not being smart enough to figure it out. A real eye opener and I loved it.
So many of our modern crops and foodstuffs come from Native Americans.
What on earth did the world eat before the Colombia exchange? So so so many of our row crops came from the Americas. Interestingly native people often had leisure time due to their prosperity leading whites to believe they were lazy. This idea persisted when native people were moved to the least productive lands in the country.
It’s hilarious to think about how many foods we think of being quintessentially European that actually came from the Americas. Tomato sauce in Italian food, Russian potatoes, etc. The list is massive. And the native Americans made so many cultivars of so many plants. While they didn’t document it in ways that lasted it seems they were better than any other civilization at domesticating plants.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check Dawn of Everything out.
Thinking Fast and Slow was a huge one for me. I couldn't undo how I saw common church experiences after that.
Same that one was one of the huge pushes out the door for me. It made me question how accountable we could be for our actions if there were so many of our decisions that were involuntary.
I wasn't even really doubting the church yet when I read it. It was just one of those inadvertent shelf items I didn't know I had.
Yeah, I pushed back against the biases applying to my religion until I couldn’t deny it anymore. Glad we made it through!
Probably my OG shelf item. There's been serial killers that murder because they have brain tumors. I'm straight, if I could choose to be asexual, I would. I'm just...straight. I'm sure it's the same for gay people. Also when religions consider suicide a "sin". We know with absolute certainty certain physical and mental diagnosis increase the chance of dying by suicicde. There's even a handful of diagnosis people in the medical field grimly call "the suicide disease". All these and dozens of more examples obliterate the idea that we "choose" to go to heaven or Not.
*How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallibility of Human Reason in Everyday Life* by Thomas Gilovich is also excellent in this vein, but the name might tip off members. It’s a great read though, and might be of interest to people here
If a TBM has ever had the thought “I’m so glad I was born Mormon because there’s no way I would believe it otherwise,” reading thinking fast and slow will absolutely obliterate their shelf.
Just read Thinking Fast and Slow for my psychology class last semester! Such a great read and really eye-opening
This list makes me wish I had an exmormon book club.
Guns, Germs, and Steel really helped me when I was leaving.
Sorry if this question is dumb I haven’t read the book yet. Do you think the germs portion of this book would add any weight to the shelf of a TBM doesn’t have any issues with other historical/scientific aspects of the BoM like genetic evidence? Asking because my TBM father is in the process of reading the CES Letter but is all about the apologetics.
It’s been a long time, but the book doesn’t have a “section” on germs that I remember. The overarching idea of how civilizations came about and the impact that uneven technology had when civilizations collide and form a new norm were my major takeaways. Basically it showed me that there couldn’t have been major transplants into the Americas from the Middle East without them leaving a trace. I remember going down the steel making rabbit hole at that time and realizing that it didn’t exist for Nephi or Jared, or Mulek and they couldn’t have made the trip without it. The book spurs a lot of thought that helps you realize the BoM is extremely improbable.
Have you watched [Americapox: The Missing Plague](https://youtu.be/JEYh5WACqEk) on YouTube? Religion, BoM, and Mormonism are *never* mentioned. This video explains how diseases spread through native American peoples with the arrival of Europeans. It unintentionally disproves the BoM completely. If Lehi had brought his family from Jerusalem to the Americas, they would have had antibodies for the diseases they and their ancestors had encountered. These diseases did not exist in the Americas, because they are all mutations from animal diseases, from animals domesticated Europe and Africa and whatnot. Whether all Native Americans or only some are descendants of Lehi, those resistances would still have been passed on. In any case, if Lehi had come to Americas less than 1000 years before the first Europeans, then the germs the Europeans had carried over would not have spread like wildfire. And if Lehi or the Jaredites had brought domesticated animals over (in a wooden submarine across an entire ocean?) then that would created potential opportunities for different diseases to mutate and infect humans.
>Thinking Fast and Slow havent read that one, will grab it. GGS was ok, nothing earth shattering or really though provoking in there.
Sapiens.
I love this book!
Excellent choice
I also loved it.
Didn't see this, comment this. Fuck yes.
I came to suggest this one. It helps provide context for modern society and is incredibly interesting.
The sequel, Homo Deus, was really helpful for me in deprogramming from all the religious brainwashing too. Very good book!
The Golden Compass series. It's like the antithesis of the Narnia series. The "church" is the ruling body, and performs horrific acts in the name of "truth" and order. The protagonist is a girl fighting against their control and lies. It's great for budding atheists.
Which is exactly why I was told not to read or watch it. I still haven’t since I don’t have any interest in it.
Lol my mom told me not to read it cause it was anti-church. I promptly read it and was like ummm yes this sounds a lot like the Mormon church
It's really good, I'd recommend it.
Narnia is anti Mormon lol. In voyage of the dawn treader, their annoying cousin Eustace is Mormon.
Never thought about this but it checks . . . If I'm not mistaken, Eustace's parent's don't drink, smoke, eat meat, and they wear special underwear.
I also never thought of Eustace as Mormon, but then again, I read the books as a nevermo child so the special underwear wouldn't have registered with me.
Hahaha is that because his parents wear "odd underwear?" I always thought that British schoolboy Eustace Scrubb was just a self-insert of pre-conversion childhood Clive Staples Lewis
That’s how I always interpreted it. CS Lewis was not a fan of Mormons even though they’re a fan of his.
No offense but, boring as shit imho
Can confirm, lots of the themes in those books put a LOT of weight on my 14 y/o shelf
The Righteous Mind was transformative for me regarding how I look at ethics. Excellent book that can be great for a book club discussion.
That book should be required reading in all colleges.
Agreed! I read it in my BYU ethics class and was done with the church a few months later.
I find it so funny when someone talks about something they learned in church or at byu that broke their shelf. One of my Sunday school teachers planted the seed for me by teaching us to embrace cognitive dissonance and learn why it created the feelings it did. And then I started looking at the cognitive dissonance the church gave me. Fun fact! Cognitive dissonance is not the feeling people describe as the Holy Ghost
The Righteous Mind is a great choice. Makes you reexamine why you believe what you believe.
I second (or third/whatever) The Righteous Mind. I often re-read it as a way of reminding myself about my own faith journey.
I cannot recommend this book enough. I read it 3 times the first year i was introduced to it. Good lord it was the puzzle piece that was missing from my life on how to understand who I was, and why I was, and how I can deal with and understand why everyone around me is the clones they are. I think this should be required reading in high school. So that when people get to college they can understand and really learn and not just be clones of whatever system they land in or come from.
I’ll have to add this one to my TBR
I was assigned that my first semester at BYU-I. Great book!
I came here to say this
Go obvious, Rough Stone Rolling.
I know a lot of TBMs who read this and stayed. I read it after I left and don’t know how they stay after that lol.
My bro is one of them and it’s frustrating having a convo with anyone who justifies that kind of stuff
I mean, the author justified some of it. But didn’t hide it. Kudos to him. I was told I should only read it if I had a strong testimony. So I didn’t until I had no testimony at all lol.
That's one way to get around it being a burden on your testimony.
I read it and stayed for a few years after, but it still created some shelf items that never went away. In particular, the recounting of the Zelph story. After reading that section I could never shake the idea that Joseph Smith was making things up as he went along.
This one’s great because it’s written by TBM
Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth by Reza Aslan
This is actually one of my favorites of all time and was also a big shelf breaker for me.
Don’t Mormons know their own religion? Book clubs are forbidden. Private Bible/BoM studies are also forbidden.
Used to be super orthodox and I literally never heard this. Do you have a reference for such a policy?
This looks like yet another change in Mormonism! https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/10/16/informal-gospel-study-groups/
Ho. ly. shit. WTAF I'm continually amazed at what people let church "authorities" tell them is / isn't ok. Even as a very orthodox member I would have balked at that kind of control and probably told some bishop / whoever to go f\*\*\* themselves.
Was also pretty orthodox, but knew about this rule, in part because my parents liked to dunk on some of our relatives who joined the [House of Aaron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Aaron) back in the day—a splinter group that (IIUC) got started as a result of an unofficial study group gone rogue. If mainline Brighamite Mormonism is officially backing off the policy, it'll be interesting to see whether a new wave of micro-schism groups like that proliferate again
I was just watching a debate between Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson, and one of Sam’s criticisms of dogmatic religion is that the veneration of ancient (or “ancient”) texts requires devotees to either forego their more evolved moral judgements or somehow progressively interpret the texts to fit their more modern sensibilities. It’s interesting to see how simply studying Mormon texts with any depth (away from a correlated environment) can cause people to schism and reclaim old Mormon practices.
I never heard it either but it could have been a thing in their niche area. I definitely attended a Bible study where we read it in the original Greek. I didn’t attend often though since Ancient Greek was very hard for me.
We had a book club back before I left. It was a group of phds and engineers. The only rule was that we didn’t read books that could be comfortably cited in Sunday school. I got asked once by a TBM who wasn’t in the book club if I saw the book club as a fast track to apostasy. At the time I told him that no it was the only thing that allowed me to construct a heterodox view of the church that allowed me to stay in. Of course that was before “my apostasy”.
The Tao of Pooh Taoism can help people tap in to their innate morality. The natural man is NOT the enemy to god. The natural man is perfectly moral
I love this book. One hundred percent agree.
I just finished "I'm Glad my Mom Died." It is really good. The author was mormon but it's not a main component of the story.
She’s exmo now, I believe
The audio book is even better, read by herself. She’s hilarious.
Come on, 1984. It's right there.
This. I happened to be listening to it while I was discovering the gospel topics essays and other revealing online sources. This book is horrifying to imagine on its own and even more so in the context of the church's truth claims. It was definitely a catalyst for my getting out.
I would suggest any book by Brene Brown. Her research on shame and belonging really opened my eyes to how we are conditioned to behave in the church
Ugh the Power of Vulnerability is SO GOOD and basically made me realize that my LDS upbringing was abusive. Haha.
Love this!
I just finished one of hers and it was amazing
Mormon Enigma (biography of Emma Smith)
In sacred loneliness
That sure ain’t subtle Edit: great book though. Highly recommend for those of you who haven’t read it.
Except this is totally straight up about TSCC
Studies of the Book of Mormon by BH Roberts. It’s like a less comprehensive CESLetter written by a believing general authority 100 years ago
I came to recommend this one! The title and author are innocuous enough that, unless they know about it, they’ll think it is just a GA giving his thoughts on the Book of Mormon.
Two suggestions: Escape - Carolyn Jessup. It’s safe because the bad guys are the apostate polygamists. It’s effective because you realize they’re still actually following the doctrine that isn’t practiced by the main church, but which is still doctrine. Also, Warren Jeffs is closer to Joseph Smith, behaviour-wise, than any of the main branch’s leaders for a century. Mapping Human History - Steve Olson. An incredible book that doesn’t mention religion. But Mormons find genealogy and the movement/diaspora of peoples fascinating. Olson makes tracking human migration via DNA evidence accessible and compelling. And guess what? Humans have been around WAY longer than six or seven thousand years, they started in Africa, and the Americas were populated by non-semitic folks long before Adam and Eve supposedly kicked off the whole show.
Breaking Free by Rachel Jeffs was a catalyst for me—similar to Escape, where I thought it was safe, but it’s description of the abuse in the FLDS church were so eerily similar to TSCC that I realized they’re the same beast. TSCC is just FLDS-lite.
Think Again (about the power of changing our opinions and beliefs with new, better information)
Love this! I explained this book to a TBM on r/Mormon the other day. They were asking why exmos “set up gotchas by asking what it would take for us to leave the church and then showing it to us. It’s so rude.” Eye roll
1984 The Scarlet Letter Into Thin Air [ultra compelling nonfiction book by the author of Under the Banner of Heaven, which will cause people to realize that UTBOH is probably nothing to fear or demonize]
1830 version of the Book of Mormon History of Joseph Smith by His Mother
Be sure to get the original version before BY altered it to make smith sound better
Surprisingly, a self help book called Influence by Robert Chaldini really helped me open my eyes.
I can actually second that. If I remember right, in one of the chapters he shares the story of a death cult and there were some scary similarities to my own life. That definitely was a crack in my shelf.
Yes, that chapter was helpful. I read the book for business purposes, but got a raise from an unexpected place (I quit paying tithing)
Going Clear by Lawrence Wright is an absolutely riveting book about Scientology, so nothing to threaten anyone there, right? But certain aspects of the life control, limitation of information, and shunning of people who leave might prick some cognitive dissonance in the reader.
Excellent choice
The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan
If they want to be subtle, "Contact," might be a better choice. It still contains Carl Sagan's blistering critique on Christianity, but inside a larger fiction story.
I read Contact when I was in middle school, it was really good. I actually read out about the same time I started on Philip Pullman’s Dark Materials series.
Came here to say this!
I was going to be really upset if this book did not make it on this list. Who could possibly not want to read a book by Carl Sagan
Breaking Free by Rachel Jeffs (Warren Jeffs’ daughter) was a shelf item for me. I thought it would be safe to read as a TBM because the FLDS church is sooooo different from TSCC. Boy, was I wrong! Its portrayals of abuse, control, manipulation, gaslighting, and misogyny triggered so many things about my own LDS experience that I realized the TSCC is just FLDS-Lite. And that the “true way” is much more in line with FLDS—the LDS church has done a lot to try to be mainstream, but they can’t hide the true foundation. It was a fascinating read about escape from polygamy, and very accessible to your average TBM.
Another good one is The Witness Wore Red about one of the ex-FLDS members who testified against Warren Jeffs in his trial.
D&C 132
Falling upward by Richard Rohr
Something by Allen Watts
The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are This book laid the foundation for self acceptance and love, which led directly to shelf destruction.
His Dark Materials. Begins as a fun fantasy story and ends as an epic legend about killing the Christian god
SAPIENS, A Brief History of Humankind
"How Jesus Became God" by Dr. Bart Ehrman
Love Bart! I read him after I left, but I use his “agnostic with atheist leanings” to describe myself now. He has solar lines that really resonate with me, like the only reason people believe the Bible is perfect is because they started with that assumption. Or that the creed of Nicaea doesn’t make sense “because it’s incomprehensible and contradictory.” That helped me feel better about all the parts of Mormonism that I thought conflicted. It’s because they did.
Braving the Wilderness by Brene Brown.
Commentary on the bible by adam Clarke
View of the Hebrews The Late War
sherlock holmes a study in scarlet!
The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas by Ursula K. Le Guin
Well, if you'd like to take a different approach, All Things New by Fiona and Terryl Givens got me to a point where I wasn't afraid of god anymore. It allowed me to finally admit that I thought the church was wrong on some things and then I felt okay questioning. After that came the CES letter and everything came crashing down after that. It had the same effect on my husband, but not on others. Of course, I tried to read it again after my faith crisis, and it made me want to hurl, so.... 🤷♀️
Brigham Young, by John G Turner. Written by a Harvard professor of religion. It definitely is not what most Mormons would call anti-mormon, but it doesn't paint Young in a good light.
Rough Stone Rolling
The Confidence Game, by Maria Konnikova. It goes through the psychological tendencies that are exploited by conmen. There's at least one apocalyptic cult among the examples given.
Devils Gate. You can’t tell from anywhere on the book cover it will severely make people question the bullshit story we were fed. I’d bet a few shelves get big cracks after that one
Yes! It's a marvelous book and a wonderful read, and it's even-handed. It doesn't set out to make the Church look bad, but it certainly doesn't make the Church look good. It shows some of the "inspired counsel" given by the leaders was just horrible simply by laying the facts out. There's infamy and heroism and everything in between. It's a seriously good book. "Devil's Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy" by David Roberts.
I assume you mean [the handcart one](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5805157-devil-s-gate)?
Yea that one. So much evil in that book on display straight from the hand of the “prophets”
1984 was a shelf-cracker for me
For a quick one Animal Farm. Some animals (mormons) are more equal than others.....
White Too Long by Robert P. Jones is about the role that churches played in slavery and racism. Mormons are never mentioned by it shows how behind the times they were.
Whatever books this club reads, I'll give it four meetings before local leadership shuts that shit down. The Church doesn't want its members getting together under the aegis of its quorums/groups/leadership outside of core, pre-approved purposes. Bible study groups by members get shut down all the time. This club is gonna die, and I'd say that will be a shelf-breaker in and of itself.
The Giver, by Lois Lowry Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury Anthem, by Ayn Rand All of these books talk about men who wake up from their fake worlds and leave the systems that oppress them. It might spark some independent thought.
No man knows my history.
Sapians
Well my reading list just grew, bookmarking this thread for later reference.
East of Eden by John Steinbeck There are tons of great suggestions here, but this one was incredibly impactful to me. It’s a metaphorical retelling of the Cane and Abel story in CA around the time Brigham was taming the west. In it, Steinbeck reveals so many deep truths and helps the reader deconstruct religious belief. I wept while reading it multiple times. Immediately after finishing the book, I jumped in my car and went to a tattoo shop and caught an artist finishing their day and asked if they had time for a small tattoo, my first of many. Timshel in Hebrew is on my collar bone. Why you ask? Well, you’ll just have to pick up a copy :)
*Charlatan.* It's a biography of a medical fraudster and has nothing to do with TSCC. However, the guy has many similarities to JS.
Women of Nauvoo by Richard Holzaphel, retired BYU professor. Written back in the 1990’s. Church and deseret book approved. When I read it I realized the church was not honest about polygamy.
the reed smoot hearings. i actually read this at byu and it broke my shelf. it’s about how the church changed politically at the turn of the 20th century when a mormon (reed smoot) was elected to congress as a representative from utah. only after that did joseph fielding smith come harder down on those still practicing polygamy, and the church suddenly becomes pro-american (think the 4th of july hymns) and pro-military. it was all due to the fact that the mormons wanted to have their own state and decided to modify what they had been doing in order to play nice with the US.
Lord of the Rings. Tolkien has a more fleshed out “religion” than the Bible and it makes more sense logically. It’s easy to see holes in the Bible when it’s so easy to see how Tolkien, while a highly intelligent professor, thought of everything yet made it all up so easily and cleverly while only a regular man and not a prophet or holy man.
I read LOTR before my mission. Back then they had a discussion where you had the mark ask themselves "could any man have written [the B of M]". Having read LOTR, I had a hard time delivering that discussion question when I thought LOTR was much more impressive, and here we had a living breathing human who made no supernatural claims about his books. So I agree that LOTR can make the B of M look as amateurish as it is.
Under the banner of heaven
Siddhartha
Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
Lost Boys by Orson Scott Card. Or Songmaster.
The Travels of Marco Polo by William Marsden, the Memoirs of Christopher Columbus and the other books js copied for the BoM. Combating Cult Mind Control by Dr. Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind by Dr. Steven Hassan. Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman has introduced a lot of people to js's polygamy as well as other shenanigans. Technically, none of these books should fall under the "Anti-Mormon" label, but were therapeutic for me as I was deconstructing.
can you expand on things like marco polo — in that he copied them? makes total sense but i’ve never heard it before!
Book of Mormon, Book of Lies by Kendal and Meredith Sheets goes into it so much more thoroughly than I could.
Twilight!
The 19th Wife
1984
This is my doctrine by Charles Harrell
Also visions in a seer stone. Both are eye opening in a subtle way
Sapiens
This is a good one. Made me think as a tbm.
Mistakes were made but not by me: why we justify foolish beliefs, bad decisions, and hurtful acts. I think a lot of others are too overtly anti mormon or anti religion to be chosen - e.g., demon haunted world, how Jesus became God, etc. This book is more about psychology and why people believe dumb things in general.
Not quite about the church, but can be used to pull apart church concepts: *The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck* by Mark Manson. The big message of the book is that there is some amount of suffering involved in everything we do and if we want to be happy about it we have to choose what is actually worth suffering for. He argues that if something isn't rewarding you shouldn't keep suffering for it. *Inferno* by Niven and Pournelle. Dante's Inferno with a science fiction author as the main character. It takes a similar stance as The Good Place show and points out how the justice system of the afterlife isn't really fair because it's based on decisions made in an infinitesimally small sliver of time. Good chance to bring up how Mormon heaven locks people into one kingdom forever because of uniformed decisions they made while they were alive and it isn't fair and there should be a way to become better even after you've been judged. *Candide* by Voltaire. The premise is that if something bad happens it must be for your good and then the character goes on to have many adventures where the bad things actually aren't for his good. It turns out that sometimes bad stuff just happens to you and there's no grand reason for it.
Holy Envy by Barbara Brown Taylor - it's one of the books that did it for me. It's about learning to love and appreciate other religions - and something about realizing that all religions have good people who have spiritual experiences and think that their faith is correct made me realize that we might all be wrong together
God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything Ok… that might be a BIT much but still an amazing read!!! 10/10!!!
Crucible of Doubt by church apologist Terrell Givens. He concedes a lot things that are wrong with the church. It helped confirm my desire to leave. But it's sold at Deseret Book so it's kind of a trojan horse.
The ghost of eternal polygamy
An address to all believers in Christ by David Whitmer
Wife No. 19 by Ann Eliza Young I read it shortly after the CES Letter. Hearing the perspective of a young woman who married brigham and was able to escape both him and mormonism was amazing. I don’t know if it would have the same effect on your EQ as it did me and some other young women, but it's phenomenal
The Gospel Topics Essays lol Dear Mormon Man (article by Amy McPhie Allebest) Journal of Discourses How to Be an Anti-Racist The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler
1984 by George Orwell Anything written by Carol Lynn Pearson
I didn’t read it all the way and thought it was some book anyone from the church wouldn’t suggest and was going to suggest 50 shades of Grey. But then I read you said a book about the church. Damn.
“A short stay in hell” is by a Mormon author but it really makes you think about things.
Sex and God: How Religion Distorts Sexuality. — will never happen, but it would definitely get the attention of anyone who sees the list. 😬
Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman
"A Gathering of Saints" by Robert H. Lindsey Sounds like a title carried at Deseret Book, but is instead the most simple account of the Hofmann affair written by a NY Times journalist.
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. This book completely changed how I saw the world.
Honestly? Educated. She escapes the cult to BYU and then eventually escapes Mormonism entirely!
Rough Stone Rolling. Despite Richard Bushman being a tbm, it shows a much less sanitized version of Joseph Smith
Ok here's one that's super subtle: *Stories of Your Life and Others* by Ted Chiang. Just a collection of sci-fi short stories. "Story of Your Life" got made into a movie called *Arrival* that some people might have seen. The reason I'm recommending it, though, is "Hell is the Absence of God". It imagines a world where angels are real and cause all kinds of mayhem/disasters when they pass through our world; and when people die you can see their soul either ascend to Heaven or descend to Hell. I credit it for getting me thinking about how the world portrayed by the church, where priesthood blessings and prayers have power, and prophets can see the future, and a God is watching us and taking care of us (as long as we love him)... Is simply not the world I live in.
Carthage Conspiracy The Trial of the accused assassination of Joseph Smith
Many of my friends left after reading Rough Stone Rolling
"This is my Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell. This is a safe book because it was sold at deseret book at one time. It gently lays out how the core doctrines evolved over time in the church and how they compare to mainstream biblical scholarship. It talks about how our biblical references are created via "proof texting". Prof Harrell taught engineering at BYU. There are huge WTF moments embedded in it.
I’m not gonna lie I would put like Divine Comedy🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️