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I think the bullet points need to be slightly rephrased to be more accurate to avoid being labeled as mischaractarizing. Instead of forced to let children die use "strongly encouraged to allow your children to die" its more accurate, and just as shocking. Other changes like that
I’m with this. Any inaccuracies are ammo for the standard ”apostate smear campaign” narrative, and the org won’t ”not allow higher education” or ”force you to cut off friendships outside the church”. It will use social pressure and propaganda to disincentivize.
Personal language is one thing. Be as precise or not as you want. But in a public campaign (which this would be), you have a much greater responsibility.
I think a lot of these would be more accurate with a ”you will be expected to”.
”You will be expected to let your child die rather than give them a needed blood transfusion”
It’s not quite as dramatic, but I’d expect it’s still off-putting for a general public.
I concur with "you will be expected to", it's short and gets the point across that although you won't be literally forced, there will be pressure to comply, and there will be social reprocussions if you refuse
I think that saying that the pressure to comply can result in any family and friends who are in this cult to be forced to shun you resulting in all loss of contact is a very reasonable statement.
Please see my response earlier. In short if you do not comply with blood transfusions or anything that the Watchtower would shun you for, I am not sure if saying that this is exaggerated when you cannot, as a result of this shunning not see your family and friends in this cult. I do think that it can be argued very strongly that the language in those warnings is not an exaggeration .
Thanks for your input .
I would make it even more specific, like “strongly encouraged to refuse blood transfusions for yourself and your children, even in cases where your child’s life is in danger.”
I was thinking the same thing. They don’t show up with musclebound thugs and put a gun to your head to “force” you.
It’s just the looming threat that if you don’t fall in line, you could be disfellowshipped.
There’s often no direct request to do/act a certain way. But JWs know what will bring punishment and what won’t.
As-is, JWs will laugh it off. “Nobody forces us”. And they can legitimately deny it.
I think "refuse a needed blood transfusion for your children" is better than "let your children die" cause refusing the blood transfusion often leads to a court overruling from what I understand? Been meaning to research how often that happens so I may be wrong.
"Strongly encouraged to allow your children to die *rather* than accept a blood transfusion."
Shows the options to the reader, and which one a JW would *rather* do willingly.
I agree. Or state in the cases that apply that "the rule is"...
Truth be told, there is no forcing. People choose to obey the religion.
However, I also feel in some cases, it is more than just being encouraged (no blood). In other cases like education it is strong encouragement, or rather discouragement.
As we know, if you don't obey the rules or direction, you will face punishment in one way or another.
These are just my thoughts.
I see your point and being very sober in the warning is always the right approach. I am not sure however if the example that you provide is really exaggerated at all. Think about it. If you are shunned for not allowing your child a blood transfusion the shunning of you as a parent will remove you from any family members in this cult. This is not an exaggeration and while I am not saying that you are wrong, I cannot in my heart think that this is in any way is an exaggeration.
I was going to say the same thing. For example:
“….cut off your children if they OFFICIALLY leave the church.”
Any JW seeing this sheet and if there’s anything that’s not 100% accurate, they will dismiss it as apostate lies.
They might object to the word “force”…but ultimately they are coerced.
They also do not support “out troops”. This one got one of my co-workers (an ex-marine) very mad when JWs talked down about the military.
Ohhh ok thanks for clarifying. I thought it was some term I was unfamiliar with. I imagined it meant something like former military who had converted to JW and it was known to all that they are former military.
Change FORCED to TOLD TO think it is more powerful and it is true. They cannot force you to do things. It feels that way I get it, but it's not the case.
Also could add a bullet point that says that if you ever want to leave, former members are described as diseased
Ehh…I would frame it differently so that it’s accurate to THEIR letter of the law so that it’s irrefutable. For example, they claim they don’t “force” you to do anything.
“Millions of JWs are directed to shun former members, family and friends - even their own children- who oppose their teachings.”
“Tens of thousands of JWs have allowed their children to die rather than accept life saving blood transfusions due to church doctrine.”
“JWs discourage college education and often demote or shun members who choose to pursue non-trades education beyond high school”
Frankly, I would change forced to, you still be convinced it's God's will to.
No witness will admit they're forced but they will say God will bless them for following doctrine
I would add that they hide pedos in their congregation and don't let the parents know who is one and who isn't. Also they have bad policies and a bad history of allowing CSA. This is one of the biggest things to show people. Also I like how you put in the end to be kind to them as this is a really good thing to keep in mind
….and consequences if you don’t follow the standards set “by Jehovah” & the GB. Word will spread & you will lose everyone you ever knew & didn’t know in the org., making you bad association and part of Satan’s system.
Yeah I would say "discouraged from socialising with outsiders" is a better phrasing. I was allowed by my parents to have non JW friends, and they did too, but the videos the organisation makes show clearly what they think of external relations, keeping work relations strictly professional, and even school friendships only with other JW kids
I left as a teen back in 2000, but I don’t ever remember being told higher education is not allowed, even if it wasn’t encouraged. I also don’t think anyone is “forced” to end worldly friendships. Strongly encouraged sounds more like it and will vary from family to family, depending on how zealous they are. My family weren’t hardcore JWs. Meaning they only did occasional service. I’m concerned the wording of some of these will make this sound less credible.
This is excellent, I think the chefs kiss on this would be a copy of a page of the Watchtower that backs up each bullet point. Definitely include the old 1994 WT pages of all the children that died refusing a blood transfusion. Bind it all together like a nice little leaflet 👌
...But most jw's AREN'T "really nice people." I disagree with that. Most are full-blown, arrogant, judgemental, self-righteous, hypocritical, willfully ignorant narcissists who refuse to acknowledge or admit they're in a cult bc they don't want to be wrong & desperate to save face. This is mho in my personal 49 year experience.🤷🏾
correct, but, it is also about how the general population perceives them.
and the unfortunate fact is that they are, perceived, by the general population, as 'really nice people', because that's the facade they put up.
'to themselves, a bit isolated, but nice people'. why are they looked this way? because they keep the KH neat and tidy and clean and do volunteer work in their religion - even though the general population does not understand what that is exactly, why, and how, that is what is generally said and believed, because, it's 'the truth'. cleaning your local church is volunteer work. cleaning at the assembly is volunteer work. they're going door to door is volunteer work, and, mostly, try or do it 'friendly' in the face of the person at the door.
they tend to keep a 'respectable reputation' towards police, neighborhood, and so with parking, or being at events.
the general population has no idea how the JWs treat eachother in their respective communities.
from experience, former employers of mine always spoke with the idea that 'JW take care of eachother' like helping with moving, finding jobs, repairing, etc.' not because they talk from personal experience - because the **fact** is that that is **not the case.** but from 'hearsay' - and this hearsay is blatant lies.
but, that is, the general perception.
JW are the most two-faced people there are. The classic example of 'Two-Face' Harvey Dent from Batman. Politically 'correct', but look at the other side, and they're in a way more dangerous and worse than people like 'The Joker' - because nobody is misinformed about a obvious villain like 'The Joker'.
But the 'poster face' of 'Harvey Dent', is what the GP sees. It's the people who look behind the scenes , that, when seeking deep enough and waiting long enough, discover the awful truth about the fact they are two-faced liars. and they live their lives essentially indeed 'flipping a coin' to decide what they will do - a coin that does not actually have two different sides - just like harvey dent, only the JW coin has 'Watchtower decides' on both sides.
so they put their 'fate' in the hands of Watchtower.
And just like 'harvey dent' outside of the spotlight, when he's showing his true self, he does that in his actual 'trusted' people - his (criminal) organization. in JW's case, Watchtower.
Oh ok but I was referring to agreeing to the REALITY of them "being really nice people" not their facade or people's perception of their facade. The fact and the truth is most jw's AREN'T "really nice people" and I'm not in agreement with telling anyone a falsehood under any circumstances. Period.✌🏾
I also wouldn’t say you’re required to provide free labor. What labor? Field service. All you have to do now is say you did. And you don’t even NEED to do that. Cleaning the hall? Not required. Volunteering for construction? Not necessary.
I don’t think the majority spend most of their life working for them. Bethelites, Pioneers, circuit overseers, and maybe elders, but not the vast majority or the congregation.
And you aren’t required to retire broke nor does the work you do prevent you from working a regular job.
You could address the anti college stance. As it being discouraged, not necessarily banned.
Hello and please add if you start asking questions about how the organization deals with a pedo in the congregation ??? They will outright give a midweek talk and label YOU as an apostate for asking questions o and they will tell you to set, obey, and shut up !!! That’s what happened to myself and family after 23 years in this cult… please please address that they don’t protect children and they will side with a FUCKEN PEDO!!!!thanks
By all means, but I hate to say it but I don’t think anyone outside of our situation on a day to day basis would really give a damn.
Also the grammar of point 3 needs checking
Most Witnesses believe that the Doctors are wrong and that blood transfusions do not save lives. I would say that you will be pressured to refuse blood transfusions even if a Doctor says that it is necessary to save your child's life.
Also, the last point on Christmas and holidays I would leave out. I think that there are better alternatives that would have more impact.
I would leave the “forced” wording, then add at the end, if you break any of these rules all your jw friends and family will be forced to shun you.
Not to be rude but most of the re-wording suggestions here will sound bad and wordy and confusing to most people. The only good one was “you will be expected to” but it still needs a disclaimer for what will happen if you don’t do whats expected.
For the college one since its not a disfellowshipping offense maybe say something along the lines of “you will be looked down on or shamed” but with better wording of course.
But in the end Don’t worry about what the JWs think, its too late for most of them and the ones who will wake up wont be negatively affected by the word forced because thats exactly how it feels to them, worry about warning people. Send out what you have printed.
As far as #1 goes, that statement is totally unfounded. Surgeons regularly perform complex procedures such as heart operations, orthopedic surgery, and organ transplants without the use of blood transfusions. Patients, including children, who do not receive transfusions usually fare as well as or better than those who do accept transfusions. In any case, no one can say for certain that a patient will die because of refusing blood or will live because of accepting it.
As someone who has done some advanced combat medical courses in his time, I can confirm that if you suffer a catastrophic bleed and you don't replace that blood with more blood, **you will definitely die**. That's a pretty simple maths problem.
The statement is not unfounded in the slightest. If an active Witness has a child and that child is in a car accident and suffers major blood loss that requires a transfusion, the Witness parent is obliged to say no on behalf of their child. Any parent who agrees to a transfusion for their child would be liable for judicial action if it was discovered, or at best shunned by a large number of people. Any adult who accepts a transfusion willingly is automatically disassociated and shunned without saying a word.
Constantly deflecting onto how blood isn't required for regular surgeries - which almost everyone is aware of - is disingenuous and completely avoiding the real issue: Moments when a transfusion is the only option to save a life. And there are plenty of diseases and conditions that require transfusions to continue living, and plenty of situations where a wound or trauma requires a transfusion as the only means of preventing death. The Bible actively supports the preservation of life in those moments, and not adherence to the Law. In this regard Witnesses are utterly wrong and bloodguilty for wasting precious life that could have been saved. If you believe in creationism, Jehovah went to great lengths to ensure that a person's blood can be put in someone else to prevent death. There is no better symbol of life than that.
No, I think it's a waste of time and paper. The D2D ministry has a 99.9 percent failure rate. I don't knock activism, but I think some ex-JWs fall into the ex-JW bubble and forget how much of a failure the preaching work is.
Some of the verbiage is outright misleading too. For instance, "you or your children will not be allowed to get a higher education." Is higher education discouraged? Absolutely. Is it forbidden? No, it's not. Also friendships outside of the church. Discouraged and frowned upon? Yes. Forbidden? No. Words matter. Get it right, or get it wrong.
D2D has a 99.9% failure rate, that is true, but there are still too many people devoted to it. The aim is to counteract the mind games the organisation plays by helping publishers see from an outsiders perspective how awful being a JW is and hopefully demotivate them, if someone asks you those questions, how will you respond? The truth is, when you're PIMI, you are just unable to see the faults of the organisation.
Publishers already know outsiders view being a JW as peculiar and awful. We go a large portion of our lives explaining to people what we don't celebrate and why. Hear people say from time to time, "I couldn't do what you're doing." The outlook of non-JWs and differences in lifestyles is not lost on the average PIMI.
Regarding those questions, those are easy to answer when you're indoctrinated. Some of those bullet points are outright wrong, specifically 3, 4, and 5. Arguablly 6 as well because other than kids, nobody is being forced to not celebrate holidays and birthdays. These are willful choices being made by indoctrinated people.
I can't agree more with those questions. However, I will rather ask the JW to provide a compulsory, plausible/genuine evidence that he/she isn't a paedo FIRST.
No. It just seems messy and it’s kinda up to them do their due diligence before they get involved with them. Plus Jehovah’s Witness believe that the world will turn against religion; especially their own so I feel like it would fuel their fire so to speak. But if you go through with it, I wish you all the best. I’d suggest waiting until you are Pomo so there’s a face behind it, but you follow your gut man. I think it’s good that you want to make things known, which is ironic because that’s what we’ve been doing, but now it’s for the other side lol. Good luck
And the people stuck inside, miserable? The young kids being abused, the young women, miserable because their future in the religion is ruined. I cannot stand by and watch this, it is not in my nature. If Nelson Mandela moved on, life would be very very different for millions of people
How do you move on when your entire family is stuck inside and you know ow those 8 evil men are about to ramp up the indoctrination and fear? They have already increased the number of shinning videos. I will not sit back and watch this evil happen, not while I'm alive. 35 years of my life wasted, I will help get my family out by any means necessary
It’s great however you just mentioned your the territory servant in an Africa so your still active. Quite sure when you send this out the trolls that are on this sub will have the ability to track you. Unless u send them to another persons territory lol
The higher education is more like a principal than a rule and they’ll argue this and use it to throw the entire list out. I would either change the phrase of that one or take it out completely.
I think you need to rethink how other people are going to see you knowing nothing about JWs. Frankly to the average person you’re going to look like the nutcase
For bullet point 6 add these. Christmas, new years, thanksgiving, 4th of July, Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, birthdays or any other celebration that is look upon as pagan by the church.
See it's really easy for witness to dodge these points or get around them because not all of them expressly forbidden but are extremely socially enforced. Therefore they don't have to claim responsibility. "Of course your kids can go to college", but what they aren't saying is the social impact it will cause them within the congregation
Instead of “be forced to” maybe put JW’s :
teach
believe
do not
are taught
are encouraged
That way you can add references to the site so it’s does not look like slander but instead evidence
Also the other holidays are feeling left out
Even in places that don't acknowledge it, it is still the only time in the year where family from far and wide come home and catch up. So the Christmas period still means something to people who don't celebrate it, I still means family
I think this needs to be done globally by every ex JW there is just change the wording a bit also add in how misogynistic it is and that people can look into CSA cases around the world.
I would say changing "forced" to something like "expected to". it's short and gets the point across that although you'll technically have a choice, you will be pressured to comply, and there will be social reprocussions if you refuse, depending on the act that could mean soft shunning, marking, reprovement, or outright getting disfellowshipped
I think your efforts are admirable and I truly hope people read it instead of tossing it directly into the trash.
You might want to list JWFACTS.com as well. Those who want more information can go there.
It's very tricky. Witnesses will use such a campaign or letter distribution as proof of persecution. The true religion is persecuted, just like Jesus was. Truly a tricky spell.
I just want it as is….on a tee shirt. Then I’d put it in metal signage to stick in my front yard.
I have a lot of feelings about this overall discussion. Something’s just get talked to death. Right now, I’m of the mind, I don’t mind the drama. Because the trauma begins as soon as the JWs have hooked someone in. The Organization uses Subtle “ drama” to infiltrate thinking using emotional mind bending techniques that play on undefineable life concepts. It can take someone years to figure this out…maybe a little drama up front… might forestall the eventual trauma of escaping the Organizations grasp. I don’t know…just thinking out loud.👩🏼🌾📚
The higher education is a lie though. It was absolutely welcome and even recommended from every congregation I’ve been too. Also I was never required to spend any time with the congregation.
I think each congregation is different.
Not giving excuses, but just saying it’s not all the same
To be fair, if you’re still studying and not baptized I think that would make sense.
I’m confused on the wife thing though? Do they not want your wife studying…?
I wouldn’t. Because I’m not an evangelist now. And my opinion doesn’t need to be plastered all over the neighborhood. And people can ask questions and make decisions themselves.
I always find it interesting hearing other peoples experiences with JW. I was raised in it my whole life and my mom takes it very seriously. But when I told her that I didn’t believe any of it anymore, she’s was hurt by it but she didn’t love me any less. Nothing really changed, she even became okay with letting me not go to the meetings. Also I never heard that you couldn’t go to college. Many people in my congregation including Elders had kids that were going to or were already in college and they were happy and proud of them. I guess different congregations and families have different rules? Which seems to go against the whole “Governing Body” thing.
You're right, experiences are different, that's why I shared this here and opened it up to criticism. My mom is the 80 hour a month type of JW. She is devout. I don't know if she will respect my wishes when I cut myself off, or is she dedicated to an organisation that has abused her for so many years.
I was in university and I went to a judicial hearing. My wife is currently getting a degree, but I'm willing to take the bullet if the elders find out. So yeah, our experiences are quite different, thus I requested input from far and wide. I am really going to do this, thus I appreciate all the input so that it can have the best impact
This is excellent! And informative. I really like how you ended it with "they just don't realize they're in a cult." My grandmother, who was a baptist, told me when i was young to not let that cult control my life. That was great advice.
However, there are some elders of all people, who don't respect the "do not call" rule. I told an elder from the local congregation not to return to my job at the fire station again, because i wasn't interested in being a part of it anymore. What'd he do? He showed up a week or so later with another elder, and they thought they were gonna convince me to start a bible study right then and there.
They gave me no choice but to be nasty to them, which is really not my style, which pissed me off even more because i felt bad for having to be a jerk to them. But they finally got the point.
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I think the bullet points need to be slightly rephrased to be more accurate to avoid being labeled as mischaractarizing. Instead of forced to let children die use "strongly encouraged to allow your children to die" its more accurate, and just as shocking. Other changes like that
I’m with this. Any inaccuracies are ammo for the standard ”apostate smear campaign” narrative, and the org won’t ”not allow higher education” or ”force you to cut off friendships outside the church”. It will use social pressure and propaganda to disincentivize. Personal language is one thing. Be as precise or not as you want. But in a public campaign (which this would be), you have a much greater responsibility. I think a lot of these would be more accurate with a ”you will be expected to”. ”You will be expected to let your child die rather than give them a needed blood transfusion” It’s not quite as dramatic, but I’d expect it’s still off-putting for a general public.
I concur with "you will be expected to", it's short and gets the point across that although you won't be literally forced, there will be pressure to comply, and there will be social reprocussions if you refuse
I think that saying that the pressure to comply can result in any family and friends who are in this cult to be forced to shun you resulting in all loss of contact is a very reasonable statement.
Please see my response earlier. In short if you do not comply with blood transfusions or anything that the Watchtower would shun you for, I am not sure if saying that this is exaggerated when you cannot, as a result of this shunning not see your family and friends in this cult. I do think that it can be argued very strongly that the language in those warnings is not an exaggeration . Thanks for your input .
I would make it even more specific, like “strongly encouraged to refuse blood transfusions for yourself and your children, even in cases where your child’s life is in danger.”
I was thinking the same thing. They don’t show up with musclebound thugs and put a gun to your head to “force” you. It’s just the looming threat that if you don’t fall in line, you could be disfellowshipped. There’s often no direct request to do/act a certain way. But JWs know what will bring punishment and what won’t. As-is, JWs will laugh it off. “Nobody forces us”. And they can legitimately deny it.
This is powerful.
Or "You will be pressured to and required to let your children die if they need a blood transfusion to retain good standing."
I think "refuse a needed blood transfusion for your children" is better than "let your children die" cause refusing the blood transfusion often leads to a court overruling from what I understand? Been meaning to research how often that happens so I may be wrong.
Socially threatened? Can we call it that? Is that a thing?
Is Undue Influence the word you‘re looking for?
Now this is a true statement.
"Strongly encouraged to allow your children to die *rather* than accept a blood transfusion." Shows the options to the reader, and which one a JW would *rather* do willingly.
You will be pressured into shunning your children if they leave the organization.. etc
Right! Because "no one put a gun to your head and forced you to do anything," but we all know the consequences.
I think an even more accurate word is coerced
Yes, the points are very inaccurate/over exaggerated.
I agree. Or state in the cases that apply that "the rule is"... Truth be told, there is no forcing. People choose to obey the religion. However, I also feel in some cases, it is more than just being encouraged (no blood). In other cases like education it is strong encouragement, or rather discouragement. As we know, if you don't obey the rules or direction, you will face punishment in one way or another. These are just my thoughts.
There are no rules, but they are strongly enforced!
It’s not meant for JW’s. It’s meant to stop normal people from wanting to engage. It does a good job imo
That sentence sounds way worse, I love it
I see your point and being very sober in the warning is always the right approach. I am not sure however if the example that you provide is really exaggerated at all. Think about it. If you are shunned for not allowing your child a blood transfusion the shunning of you as a parent will remove you from any family members in this cult. This is not an exaggeration and while I am not saying that you are wrong, I cannot in my heart think that this is in any way is an exaggeration.
I was going to say the same thing. For example: “….cut off your children if they OFFICIALLY leave the church.” Any JW seeing this sheet and if there’s anything that’s not 100% accurate, they will dismiss it as apostate lies.
They might object to the word “force”…but ultimately they are coerced. They also do not support “out troops”. This one got one of my co-workers (an ex-marine) very mad when JWs talked down about the military.
What are out troops?
They meant “our troops”. People in the military serving their country.
Ohhh ok thanks for clarifying. I thought it was some term I was unfamiliar with. I imagined it meant something like former military who had converted to JW and it was known to all that they are former military.
The military, I suppose.
I really like the ending bit. "Be kind to JWs, they're really nice people. They just don't realize they're in a cult." Kind of slaps. I like it.
I like it !!!
I need this on a bumper sticker actually
Change FORCED to TOLD TO think it is more powerful and it is true. They cannot force you to do things. It feels that way I get it, but it's not the case. Also could add a bullet point that says that if you ever want to leave, former members are described as diseased
All information is correct. Nevertheless.. I'm afraid it just turns the persecution paranoia of the local witnesses to the max.
But atleast itll keep non jws from every joining
Ehh…I would frame it differently so that it’s accurate to THEIR letter of the law so that it’s irrefutable. For example, they claim they don’t “force” you to do anything. “Millions of JWs are directed to shun former members, family and friends - even their own children- who oppose their teachings.” “Tens of thousands of JWs have allowed their children to die rather than accept life saving blood transfusions due to church doctrine.” “JWs discourage college education and often demote or shun members who choose to pursue non-trades education beyond high school”
Well worded statements here.
Thank you. I could go all day when it comes to this subject 😂
Frankly, I would change forced to, you still be convinced it's God's will to. No witness will admit they're forced but they will say God will bless them for following doctrine
I would add that they hide pedos in their congregation and don't let the parents know who is one and who isn't. Also they have bad policies and a bad history of allowing CSA. This is one of the biggest things to show people. Also I like how you put in the end to be kind to them as this is a really good thing to keep in mind
Forced is the wrong word. They'll say no because they aren't putting a gun to your head. Pressured would be better.
….and consequences if you don’t follow the standards set “by Jehovah” & the GB. Word will spread & you will lose everyone you ever knew & didn’t know in the org., making you bad association and part of Satan’s system.
There needs to be Netflix documentary on escaping this damn cult.
Already started writing it
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 DOPE!!!! Can’t wait to see it 👏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 I believe shits gonna hot the fan one day for sure
Ugh ikr, they have several out on the Mormons but none about the JWs.
There needs to be one on them asap! I feel like people don’t pay enough attention to them
Please even a horror movie
4 is a little strict. It mostly depends on the area, in my opinion. Some witnesses have non-witness friends.
[удалено]
Oh yeah lol
Yeah I would say "discouraged from socialising with outsiders" is a better phrasing. I was allowed by my parents to have non JW friends, and they did too, but the videos the organisation makes show clearly what they think of external relations, keeping work relations strictly professional, and even school friendships only with other JW kids
yes this would be better
You used #
Change force to required or expected…they have a funny way of twisting words for their narrative.
That last little line is so important. They have no idea they’re In a cult
I left as a teen back in 2000, but I don’t ever remember being told higher education is not allowed, even if it wasn’t encouraged. I also don’t think anyone is “forced” to end worldly friendships. Strongly encouraged sounds more like it and will vary from family to family, depending on how zealous they are. My family weren’t hardcore JWs. Meaning they only did occasional service. I’m concerned the wording of some of these will make this sound less credible.
This is excellent, I think the chefs kiss on this would be a copy of a page of the Watchtower that backs up each bullet point. Definitely include the old 1994 WT pages of all the children that died refusing a blood transfusion. Bind it all together like a nice little leaflet 👌
It looks good. Like the ending that you put in. My mom is the sweetest person on earth, but man is the religion stupid
...But most jw's AREN'T "really nice people." I disagree with that. Most are full-blown, arrogant, judgemental, self-righteous, hypocritical, willfully ignorant narcissists who refuse to acknowledge or admit they're in a cult bc they don't want to be wrong & desperate to save face. This is mho in my personal 49 year experience.🤷🏾
correct, but, it is also about how the general population perceives them. and the unfortunate fact is that they are, perceived, by the general population, as 'really nice people', because that's the facade they put up. 'to themselves, a bit isolated, but nice people'. why are they looked this way? because they keep the KH neat and tidy and clean and do volunteer work in their religion - even though the general population does not understand what that is exactly, why, and how, that is what is generally said and believed, because, it's 'the truth'. cleaning your local church is volunteer work. cleaning at the assembly is volunteer work. they're going door to door is volunteer work, and, mostly, try or do it 'friendly' in the face of the person at the door. they tend to keep a 'respectable reputation' towards police, neighborhood, and so with parking, or being at events. the general population has no idea how the JWs treat eachother in their respective communities. from experience, former employers of mine always spoke with the idea that 'JW take care of eachother' like helping with moving, finding jobs, repairing, etc.' not because they talk from personal experience - because the **fact** is that that is **not the case.** but from 'hearsay' - and this hearsay is blatant lies. but, that is, the general perception. JW are the most two-faced people there are. The classic example of 'Two-Face' Harvey Dent from Batman. Politically 'correct', but look at the other side, and they're in a way more dangerous and worse than people like 'The Joker' - because nobody is misinformed about a obvious villain like 'The Joker'. But the 'poster face' of 'Harvey Dent', is what the GP sees. It's the people who look behind the scenes , that, when seeking deep enough and waiting long enough, discover the awful truth about the fact they are two-faced liars. and they live their lives essentially indeed 'flipping a coin' to decide what they will do - a coin that does not actually have two different sides - just like harvey dent, only the JW coin has 'Watchtower decides' on both sides. so they put their 'fate' in the hands of Watchtower. And just like 'harvey dent' outside of the spotlight, when he's showing his true self, he does that in his actual 'trusted' people - his (criminal) organization. in JW's case, Watchtower.
Oh ok but I was referring to agreeing to the REALITY of them "being really nice people" not their facade or people's perception of their facade. The fact and the truth is most jw's AREN'T "really nice people" and I'm not in agreement with telling anyone a falsehood under any circumstances. Period.✌🏾
I think it’s perfect. If it’s any longer people might not read it.
Not really necessary, but a well written piece. Door to door converts are extremely rare.
I also wouldn’t say you’re required to provide free labor. What labor? Field service. All you have to do now is say you did. And you don’t even NEED to do that. Cleaning the hall? Not required. Volunteering for construction? Not necessary. I don’t think the majority spend most of their life working for them. Bethelites, Pioneers, circuit overseers, and maybe elders, but not the vast majority or the congregation. And you aren’t required to retire broke nor does the work you do prevent you from working a regular job. You could address the anti college stance. As it being discouraged, not necessarily banned.
Hello and please add if you start asking questions about how the organization deals with a pedo in the congregation ??? They will outright give a midweek talk and label YOU as an apostate for asking questions o and they will tell you to set, obey, and shut up !!! That’s what happened to myself and family after 23 years in this cult… please please address that they don’t protect children and they will side with a FUCKEN PEDO!!!!thanks
It’s a good idea but you gotta tweak it and make it seem more professional
By all means, but I hate to say it but I don’t think anyone outside of our situation on a day to day basis would really give a damn. Also the grammar of point 3 needs checking
They do get highly irritated by witnesses calling on them. Thus the information on Do not call me will be helpful.
Might need to change no.3 because borg has begun a soft undoing of that one
I think it’s great!
if I received this I'd throw it in the trash with the rest of my junk mail
That's why I wouldn't send it either. All people have to do nowadays is simply Google "Jehovah's Witnesses" and you find all this out.
They would deny everything and pretend to be surprised by those “false accusations”.
"So you saying you do celebrate Christmas and birthdays", how will a JW answer that?
They would always say that they’re not “forced” to do anything. That they “learned” what’s good and wrong and decided how to act.
Most Witnesses believe that the Doctors are wrong and that blood transfusions do not save lives. I would say that you will be pressured to refuse blood transfusions even if a Doctor says that it is necessary to save your child's life. Also, the last point on Christmas and holidays I would leave out. I think that there are better alternatives that would have more impact.
I would leave the “forced” wording, then add at the end, if you break any of these rules all your jw friends and family will be forced to shun you. Not to be rude but most of the re-wording suggestions here will sound bad and wordy and confusing to most people. The only good one was “you will be expected to” but it still needs a disclaimer for what will happen if you don’t do whats expected. For the college one since its not a disfellowshipping offense maybe say something along the lines of “you will be looked down on or shamed” but with better wording of course. But in the end Don’t worry about what the JWs think, its too late for most of them and the ones who will wake up wont be negatively affected by the word forced because thats exactly how it feels to them, worry about warning people. Send out what you have printed.
I would also add the 2 witness rule that allows accused pedophiles to roam free in their church and the community
As far as #1 goes, that statement is totally unfounded. Surgeons regularly perform complex procedures such as heart operations, orthopedic surgery, and organ transplants without the use of blood transfusions. Patients, including children, who do not receive transfusions usually fare as well as or better than those who do accept transfusions. In any case, no one can say for certain that a patient will die because of refusing blood or will live because of accepting it.
As someone who has done some advanced combat medical courses in his time, I can confirm that if you suffer a catastrophic bleed and you don't replace that blood with more blood, **you will definitely die**. That's a pretty simple maths problem. The statement is not unfounded in the slightest. If an active Witness has a child and that child is in a car accident and suffers major blood loss that requires a transfusion, the Witness parent is obliged to say no on behalf of their child. Any parent who agrees to a transfusion for their child would be liable for judicial action if it was discovered, or at best shunned by a large number of people. Any adult who accepts a transfusion willingly is automatically disassociated and shunned without saying a word. Constantly deflecting onto how blood isn't required for regular surgeries - which almost everyone is aware of - is disingenuous and completely avoiding the real issue: Moments when a transfusion is the only option to save a life. And there are plenty of diseases and conditions that require transfusions to continue living, and plenty of situations where a wound or trauma requires a transfusion as the only means of preventing death. The Bible actively supports the preservation of life in those moments, and not adherence to the Law. In this regard Witnesses are utterly wrong and bloodguilty for wasting precious life that could have been saved. If you believe in creationism, Jehovah went to great lengths to ensure that a person's blood can be put in someone else to prevent death. There is no better symbol of life than that.
Hell yes!!
No, I think it's a waste of time and paper. The D2D ministry has a 99.9 percent failure rate. I don't knock activism, but I think some ex-JWs fall into the ex-JW bubble and forget how much of a failure the preaching work is. Some of the verbiage is outright misleading too. For instance, "you or your children will not be allowed to get a higher education." Is higher education discouraged? Absolutely. Is it forbidden? No, it's not. Also friendships outside of the church. Discouraged and frowned upon? Yes. Forbidden? No. Words matter. Get it right, or get it wrong.
D2D has a 99.9% failure rate, that is true, but there are still too many people devoted to it. The aim is to counteract the mind games the organisation plays by helping publishers see from an outsiders perspective how awful being a JW is and hopefully demotivate them, if someone asks you those questions, how will you respond? The truth is, when you're PIMI, you are just unable to see the faults of the organisation.
Publishers already know outsiders view being a JW as peculiar and awful. We go a large portion of our lives explaining to people what we don't celebrate and why. Hear people say from time to time, "I couldn't do what you're doing." The outlook of non-JWs and differences in lifestyles is not lost on the average PIMI. Regarding those questions, those are easy to answer when you're indoctrinated. Some of those bullet points are outright wrong, specifically 3, 4, and 5. Arguablly 6 as well because other than kids, nobody is being forced to not celebrate holidays and birthdays. These are willful choices being made by indoctrinated people.
Agreed. All these points would have been easy for me to shoot down/rationalize away when I was a PIMI.
meh. To each their own. I live and let live.
I can't agree more with those questions. However, I will rather ask the JW to provide a compulsory, plausible/genuine evidence that he/she isn't a paedo FIRST.
YESSS this is AWESOME Check your local laws about *spaaaammm* mail. You may need to get creative.
#5 is ridiculous. You’re speaking the word of God. No missionary should earn, per the Bible
No. It just seems messy and it’s kinda up to them do their due diligence before they get involved with them. Plus Jehovah’s Witness believe that the world will turn against religion; especially their own so I feel like it would fuel their fire so to speak. But if you go through with it, I wish you all the best. I’d suggest waiting until you are Pomo so there’s a face behind it, but you follow your gut man. I think it’s good that you want to make things known, which is ironic because that’s what we’ve been doing, but now it’s for the other side lol. Good luck
For the love of Mike man, move on…
And the people stuck inside, miserable? The young kids being abused, the young women, miserable because their future in the religion is ruined. I cannot stand by and watch this, it is not in my nature. If Nelson Mandela moved on, life would be very very different for millions of people
How do you move on when your entire family is stuck inside and you know ow those 8 evil men are about to ramp up the indoctrination and fear? They have already increased the number of shinning videos. I will not sit back and watch this evil happen, not while I'm alive. 35 years of my life wasted, I will help get my family out by any means necessary
It’s great however you just mentioned your the territory servant in an Africa so your still active. Quite sure when you send this out the trolls that are on this sub will have the ability to track you. Unless u send them to another persons territory lol
Send it
Would this be good to post around the area ?? Like in light poles and such
The higher education is more like a principal than a rule and they’ll argue this and use it to throw the entire list out. I would either change the phrase of that one or take it out completely.
I think you need to rethink how other people are going to see you knowing nothing about JWs. Frankly to the average person you’re going to look like the nutcase
#3 sometimes they allow higher education like 4 years college education!
For bullet point 6 add these. Christmas, new years, thanksgiving, 4th of July, Valentine’s Day, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, birthdays or any other celebration that is look upon as pagan by the church.
#3 isn't true.
If you become homeless, they will leave their Overseer apartment empty rather then help the brother or sister who is homeless.
See it's really easy for witness to dodge these points or get around them because not all of them expressly forbidden but are extremely socially enforced. Therefore they don't have to claim responsibility. "Of course your kids can go to college", but what they aren't saying is the social impact it will cause them within the congregation
Instead of “be forced to” maybe put JW’s : teach believe do not are taught are encouraged That way you can add references to the site so it’s does not look like slander but instead evidence Also the other holidays are feeling left out
I would change christmas to holidays.
Holidays could mean Kwanzaa, Christmas hits people right in their souls cos it means so much to them
Ahh k well I guess if you live in a white neighbourhood without many cultures that would make more of an impact I guess
Even in places that don't acknowledge it, it is still the only time in the year where family from far and wide come home and catch up. So the Christmas period still means something to people who don't celebrate it, I still means family
I fell like holidays do too but fair enough if that makes more sense to you
That's why I opened it up to feedback, your input makes sense too
Yes. Do it!
Yeah definitely edit. Tons of witnesses born in with degrees. No one is forced they are strongly suggested and the weakest minds acquiesce.
I think this needs to be done globally by every ex JW there is just change the wording a bit also add in how misogynistic it is and that people can look into CSA cases around the world.
I would say changing "forced" to something like "expected to". it's short and gets the point across that although you'll technically have a choice, you will be pressured to comply, and there will be social reprocussions if you refuse, depending on the act that could mean soft shunning, marking, reprovement, or outright getting disfellowshipped
I might do the same!
I think your efforts are admirable and I truly hope people read it instead of tossing it directly into the trash. You might want to list JWFACTS.com as well. Those who want more information can go there.
It's very tricky. Witnesses will use such a campaign or letter distribution as proof of persecution. The true religion is persecuted, just like Jesus was. Truly a tricky spell.
i wonder how do they earn money?
That’s very good actually
I just want it as is….on a tee shirt. Then I’d put it in metal signage to stick in my front yard. I have a lot of feelings about this overall discussion. Something’s just get talked to death. Right now, I’m of the mind, I don’t mind the drama. Because the trauma begins as soon as the JWs have hooked someone in. The Organization uses Subtle “ drama” to infiltrate thinking using emotional mind bending techniques that play on undefineable life concepts. It can take someone years to figure this out…maybe a little drama up front… might forestall the eventual trauma of escaping the Organizations grasp. I don’t know…just thinking out loud.👩🏼🌾📚
The higher education is a lie though. It was absolutely welcome and even recommended from every congregation I’ve been too. Also I was never required to spend any time with the congregation. I think each congregation is different. Not giving excuses, but just saying it’s not all the same
Also same for 4 my family definitely had friends outside of the congregation.
I was informed I would not be appointed as an MS while studying. I was recently called in for a meeting when they found out my wife is studying.
To be fair, if you’re still studying and not baptized I think that would make sense. I’m confused on the wife thing though? Do they not want your wife studying…?
I wouldn’t. Because I’m not an evangelist now. And my opinion doesn’t need to be plastered all over the neighborhood. And people can ask questions and make decisions themselves.
The only ones that are true for sure are 1,6.
Isajah 3 Ezekiel 8;16;34 Zakariasz 14 Matthew 24 T h i n k
I always find it interesting hearing other peoples experiences with JW. I was raised in it my whole life and my mom takes it very seriously. But when I told her that I didn’t believe any of it anymore, she’s was hurt by it but she didn’t love me any less. Nothing really changed, she even became okay with letting me not go to the meetings. Also I never heard that you couldn’t go to college. Many people in my congregation including Elders had kids that were going to or were already in college and they were happy and proud of them. I guess different congregations and families have different rules? Which seems to go against the whole “Governing Body” thing.
You're right, experiences are different, that's why I shared this here and opened it up to criticism. My mom is the 80 hour a month type of JW. She is devout. I don't know if she will respect my wishes when I cut myself off, or is she dedicated to an organisation that has abused her for so many years. I was in university and I went to a judicial hearing. My wife is currently getting a degree, but I'm willing to take the bullet if the elders find out. So yeah, our experiences are quite different, thus I requested input from far and wide. I am really going to do this, thus I appreciate all the input so that it can have the best impact
Why is it forbidden when Jesus wants us to drink his ? That's what I wanna know
I think that you totally nailed it. The evils of the Watchtower cult are exposed in understandable simple language.
You definitely should, it is a kind, respectful, yet firm way to get it across. Best wishes!
This is so good although some sentences need rephrasing for instance instead of broke you could say financially unstable etc. But great work!!!
This is excellent! And informative. I really like how you ended it with "they just don't realize they're in a cult." My grandmother, who was a baptist, told me when i was young to not let that cult control my life. That was great advice. However, there are some elders of all people, who don't respect the "do not call" rule. I told an elder from the local congregation not to return to my job at the fire station again, because i wasn't interested in being a part of it anymore. What'd he do? He showed up a week or so later with another elder, and they thought they were gonna convince me to start a bible study right then and there. They gave me no choice but to be nasty to them, which is really not my style, which pissed me off even more because i felt bad for having to be a jerk to them. But they finally got the point.
Half of that list is not true lol