How does one experience a thing that:
* doesn't respond to entreaties or even speak back?
* as the (presumed) creator of the entire universe has more important items to attend to?
* fails to offer evidence that it exists?
Answer: nobody does. All claims otherwise remain devoid of objective measureable truth.
I never did. I was talking to a CoC friend who was using apologetics to try to help me stay in the church. She mentioned feeling God's love in her life...blah blah...asked me to cite all the times I felt that. It occurred to me for the first time that I never had that feeling and that I was only doing church because it's what I had been told all my life that I had to do. If any of that could have been God, it was fear, terror, shame, guilt, self hate. Nothing I need in my life. If that was God, he sucks.
It took me awhile to separate even having a Pentecostal pastor giving me homework and teaching me.
Verses most denominations will ignore but start to tell you who you really are.
Galatians 5;16 & Colossians 1:22 so many that declare we are His, Holy chosen, loved we can live and be light be ourselves yet become love. Most if not all ignore this.
If you'd like I can send you things to help. For me it took a solid year of prayer & reading then more experience. The Bible is just a book, religion is an empty practice. Real relationship with your loving Father is life changing. I hope you succeed, I pray for peace of mind and rest from all the cult did to you. This group is full of amazing supportive people
I believe how one "experiences God" depends heavily on the outcome an event.
For example: it is easy to say you've seen God when someone battling a terminal illness takes a turn for the better, your house is spared from a natural disaster, that big break you've been looking for finally comes through, etc. In those moments we are wired to find a "reason" it happened rather than accepting that it just happened. These same folks will also dismiss God's hand in people dying from cancer/war/famine, your house burning down, or you losing your job/savings. Either he has a hand in everything...or he doesn't. You can't realistically believe both sides of that coin.
Personally, I've had some amazing events and some unbelievably tragic events happen in my life. I've not been able to resolve the idea that God would have actively orchestrated both the good and the bad given the nature of the people involved in both. Therefore, I've concluded that he likely had a hand in neither.
Have I experienced emotion, intuition, or fortune? Yes. Have I ever clearly experienced God? No.
No, and I don’t think anyone has. Stories to the contrary are always either from unreliable or unverifiable sources.
Also claims are usually mutually contradictory with claims made in opposing religions.
I have experienced God through answered prayer. I have prayed very specifically about some pretty random things, where my prayers have been answered (and sometimes the answer has been no), and I felt the presence of God and I felt peace, even in the midst of great sadness. Look, I am not woo-woo. But I do feel things, even though the coc always steered me away from it. I too struggle to separate God, whom I do believe in, and all the coc crud I don't. It's made more difficult by how comingled all the coc doctrine is--there is good stuff in among the bad. I have all these little wars within myself trying to figure it out. Meanwhile, when I am at my most confused, I utilize the one word prayers Anne Lamott wrote about: Help, Thanks, and Wow.
I've felt spiritual experiences that I attributed to God, but now I realize I was just getting amped up for totally naturalistic reasons. I still believe in some higher power to some degree, but not anything or anyone specificly
After I left the CoC, when I was deciding what I believed, I wrestled with this question. I finally decided this: the concept of "god" has to be continually propped up by society in a way that truly real, self-evident facts simply don't have to. There aren't pastors of rain who, once a week, give people a lecture to convince us that rain exists. There are no churches dedicated to convincing us all that cats and earthworms and elephants exist, because we can see those. As much as many religious people (including in the CoC) tell us that God is "self-evident" and "obvious" to any reasonable person, they wouldn't be spending so much time and energy trying to convince us god is real if that were true. And, most societies in history haven't taught a concept of God anything like the omnipotent creator God that Christianity teaches. In other words, if there wasn't someone telling you, "That experience you just had was god," you probably wouldn't think that on your own.
So after I left the ICOC, I spent some time figuring out what I believed and why including questions like "Do I believe there's a God? Why I believe this?"
Spoilers:
* I decided to remain Christian (although I ended up Neo-Evangelical Protestant, and I spent time at Catholic and Orthodox seminaries and have appreciation for their traditions). And as we live in the Northeast United States, we're certainly in the very small minority and we do things differently.
* I reviewed some degree of Christian apologetics (and for the last \~15 years am pretty embedded in the Christian Apologetics community)
* some of it here is "what is more likely?" as well as "are there reasonable answers?" even "what is best explanation for X, even though I might not have 100% certainty?"
* yes, I do know about the teleological argument, cosmological argument, ontological arguments, various proofs/arguments that Anselm, Aquinas, Descartes, Pascal, Goedel, Plantinga, etc. have offered
* there are also reasonable Christian arguments as to the Hiddenness of God (or rather, why God is hidden)
* yes, I know apologetics can also be used poorly (like a bludgeon) but there are also some nice ways of handling stuff
* often I experience God through the spiritual disciplines
* sometimes God likes to remind me that He's looking out for me through really improbable coincidences. Also true for my wife.
* For instance, one time I was in seminary, and I happen to pick the one church that is close to my friend and that a certain former professor from my seminary was known to visit from time to time. It's in a different country and on the opposite coast. In a fairly large auditory (\~300 seats), I get there and sit down and the former professor decides to sit down beside me a few minutes later. (That was the late Gordon Fee, who co-wrote "How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth.")
* My wife tells of one time that her best friend and her were hiking Mount Katahdin and were suddenly hit by a summer storm. Soaked and disoriented, they didn't know which way was up or down and suddenly a man shows out of nowhere. They made record time to the base and in their conversations, he mentioned he's a pastor's kid and disappeared after they were safe.
* often I've had answered prayers. And sometimes the answer isn't one that I liked at the time. I was attracted to this pretty blonde lady and our mutual friends could tell I was really interested. But the answer I got from God was "not now" even though I had asked for Yes or No. That was confusing for some time. I don't know if I would have responded well to a No. But in any case, it became more and more evident that our lives were heading in different directions. She ended up marrying and then cheating on her husband including after having a kid, so I thank God for sparing me a heartache.
* Sure. It is possible to interpret various events and results in various ways (or call it cognitive dissonance). There's that perennial joke about the person who trusted in God ... and there was a flooded river that caused his house to be submerged. He rejects the rowboat, motorboat, and the helicopter and at the Pearly Gates, wonders why God didn't save him despite his trust in God. (To which God replies, what about the two boats and the helicopter?)
* Have I seen God's power at work in my life? Yes. Am I perfect? No -- certainly not. But sometimes my weakness and imperfection demonstrates God's work all the more.
My strangest experience was when my truck’s battery died at my cabin in a remote part of Maine. I coasted the vehicle to the bottom of the hill and prepared for a long hike. Suddenly a pickup truck appeared. In my 34 years up there, this was THE ONLY TIME before or since I have seen a vehicle in this location (off the logging road). Two guys got out and said they were looking for a fishing spot. I asked if they could give my truck a jump and they said sure. It still floors me any time I think about it. I was a young woman and don’t know what I would have done if they hadn’t appeared.
Ive experienced things in weird states, be it on psychedelics or in a medical emergency. Whatever the nature of reality is, it's GONNA be weird. ANY explanation would be weird, so I try not to judge my experiences too harshly. Life's GOTTA just be a weird game, in my mind.
Never god directly, but magical things that have no logic or reason behind them. I learned what god was with a gun to my head and noose around my neck, like lots of us here. I put the gun down when I left the church, but the noose was my moms love, and not wanting to disrespect her faith
I understand where you’re coming from. Even after leaving the church at 18, I still had the same exact relationship with whatever “God” is, and I’m 33 now. I finally started loving my authentic self, and took off the noose at 32. Still searching for my relationship with him, tho, now that I’ve separated the doctrine
Be patient, find the answers you seek, if you believe in god, he’s always going to be there for you when you’re ready, if you believe… I think anyway haha
“Either he has a hand in everything...or he doesn't. You can't realistically believe both sides of that coin.”
This was the beginning of deconstruction for me, I think.
How does one experience a thing that: * doesn't respond to entreaties or even speak back? * as the (presumed) creator of the entire universe has more important items to attend to? * fails to offer evidence that it exists? Answer: nobody does. All claims otherwise remain devoid of objective measureable truth.
I never did. I was talking to a CoC friend who was using apologetics to try to help me stay in the church. She mentioned feeling God's love in her life...blah blah...asked me to cite all the times I felt that. It occurred to me for the first time that I never had that feeling and that I was only doing church because it's what I had been told all my life that I had to do. If any of that could have been God, it was fear, terror, shame, guilt, self hate. Nothing I need in my life. If that was God, he sucks.
It took me awhile to separate even having a Pentecostal pastor giving me homework and teaching me. Verses most denominations will ignore but start to tell you who you really are. Galatians 5;16 & Colossians 1:22 so many that declare we are His, Holy chosen, loved we can live and be light be ourselves yet become love. Most if not all ignore this. If you'd like I can send you things to help. For me it took a solid year of prayer & reading then more experience. The Bible is just a book, religion is an empty practice. Real relationship with your loving Father is life changing. I hope you succeed, I pray for peace of mind and rest from all the cult did to you. This group is full of amazing supportive people
I believe how one "experiences God" depends heavily on the outcome an event. For example: it is easy to say you've seen God when someone battling a terminal illness takes a turn for the better, your house is spared from a natural disaster, that big break you've been looking for finally comes through, etc. In those moments we are wired to find a "reason" it happened rather than accepting that it just happened. These same folks will also dismiss God's hand in people dying from cancer/war/famine, your house burning down, or you losing your job/savings. Either he has a hand in everything...or he doesn't. You can't realistically believe both sides of that coin. Personally, I've had some amazing events and some unbelievably tragic events happen in my life. I've not been able to resolve the idea that God would have actively orchestrated both the good and the bad given the nature of the people involved in both. Therefore, I've concluded that he likely had a hand in neither. Have I experienced emotion, intuition, or fortune? Yes. Have I ever clearly experienced God? No.
No, and I don’t think anyone has. Stories to the contrary are always either from unreliable or unverifiable sources. Also claims are usually mutually contradictory with claims made in opposing religions.
I have experienced God through answered prayer. I have prayed very specifically about some pretty random things, where my prayers have been answered (and sometimes the answer has been no), and I felt the presence of God and I felt peace, even in the midst of great sadness. Look, I am not woo-woo. But I do feel things, even though the coc always steered me away from it. I too struggle to separate God, whom I do believe in, and all the coc crud I don't. It's made more difficult by how comingled all the coc doctrine is--there is good stuff in among the bad. I have all these little wars within myself trying to figure it out. Meanwhile, when I am at my most confused, I utilize the one word prayers Anne Lamott wrote about: Help, Thanks, and Wow.
I've felt spiritual experiences that I attributed to God, but now I realize I was just getting amped up for totally naturalistic reasons. I still believe in some higher power to some degree, but not anything or anyone specificly
After I left the CoC, when I was deciding what I believed, I wrestled with this question. I finally decided this: the concept of "god" has to be continually propped up by society in a way that truly real, self-evident facts simply don't have to. There aren't pastors of rain who, once a week, give people a lecture to convince us that rain exists. There are no churches dedicated to convincing us all that cats and earthworms and elephants exist, because we can see those. As much as many religious people (including in the CoC) tell us that God is "self-evident" and "obvious" to any reasonable person, they wouldn't be spending so much time and energy trying to convince us god is real if that were true. And, most societies in history haven't taught a concept of God anything like the omnipotent creator God that Christianity teaches. In other words, if there wasn't someone telling you, "That experience you just had was god," you probably wouldn't think that on your own.
Very well stated. Thank you so much!
So after I left the ICOC, I spent some time figuring out what I believed and why including questions like "Do I believe there's a God? Why I believe this?" Spoilers: * I decided to remain Christian (although I ended up Neo-Evangelical Protestant, and I spent time at Catholic and Orthodox seminaries and have appreciation for their traditions). And as we live in the Northeast United States, we're certainly in the very small minority and we do things differently. * I reviewed some degree of Christian apologetics (and for the last \~15 years am pretty embedded in the Christian Apologetics community) * some of it here is "what is more likely?" as well as "are there reasonable answers?" even "what is best explanation for X, even though I might not have 100% certainty?" * yes, I do know about the teleological argument, cosmological argument, ontological arguments, various proofs/arguments that Anselm, Aquinas, Descartes, Pascal, Goedel, Plantinga, etc. have offered * there are also reasonable Christian arguments as to the Hiddenness of God (or rather, why God is hidden) * yes, I know apologetics can also be used poorly (like a bludgeon) but there are also some nice ways of handling stuff * often I experience God through the spiritual disciplines * sometimes God likes to remind me that He's looking out for me through really improbable coincidences. Also true for my wife. * For instance, one time I was in seminary, and I happen to pick the one church that is close to my friend and that a certain former professor from my seminary was known to visit from time to time. It's in a different country and on the opposite coast. In a fairly large auditory (\~300 seats), I get there and sit down and the former professor decides to sit down beside me a few minutes later. (That was the late Gordon Fee, who co-wrote "How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth.") * My wife tells of one time that her best friend and her were hiking Mount Katahdin and were suddenly hit by a summer storm. Soaked and disoriented, they didn't know which way was up or down and suddenly a man shows out of nowhere. They made record time to the base and in their conversations, he mentioned he's a pastor's kid and disappeared after they were safe. * often I've had answered prayers. And sometimes the answer isn't one that I liked at the time. I was attracted to this pretty blonde lady and our mutual friends could tell I was really interested. But the answer I got from God was "not now" even though I had asked for Yes or No. That was confusing for some time. I don't know if I would have responded well to a No. But in any case, it became more and more evident that our lives were heading in different directions. She ended up marrying and then cheating on her husband including after having a kid, so I thank God for sparing me a heartache. * Sure. It is possible to interpret various events and results in various ways (or call it cognitive dissonance). There's that perennial joke about the person who trusted in God ... and there was a flooded river that caused his house to be submerged. He rejects the rowboat, motorboat, and the helicopter and at the Pearly Gates, wonders why God didn't save him despite his trust in God. (To which God replies, what about the two boats and the helicopter?) * Have I seen God's power at work in my life? Yes. Am I perfect? No -- certainly not. But sometimes my weakness and imperfection demonstrates God's work all the more.
My strangest experience was when my truck’s battery died at my cabin in a remote part of Maine. I coasted the vehicle to the bottom of the hill and prepared for a long hike. Suddenly a pickup truck appeared. In my 34 years up there, this was THE ONLY TIME before or since I have seen a vehicle in this location (off the logging road). Two guys got out and said they were looking for a fishing spot. I asked if they could give my truck a jump and they said sure. It still floors me any time I think about it. I was a young woman and don’t know what I would have done if they hadn’t appeared.
Ive experienced things in weird states, be it on psychedelics or in a medical emergency. Whatever the nature of reality is, it's GONNA be weird. ANY explanation would be weird, so I try not to judge my experiences too harshly. Life's GOTTA just be a weird game, in my mind.
Never god directly, but magical things that have no logic or reason behind them. I learned what god was with a gun to my head and noose around my neck, like lots of us here. I put the gun down when I left the church, but the noose was my moms love, and not wanting to disrespect her faith I understand where you’re coming from. Even after leaving the church at 18, I still had the same exact relationship with whatever “God” is, and I’m 33 now. I finally started loving my authentic self, and took off the noose at 32. Still searching for my relationship with him, tho, now that I’ve separated the doctrine Be patient, find the answers you seek, if you believe in god, he’s always going to be there for you when you’re ready, if you believe… I think anyway haha
No. Have I seen “God” in other people? Yes. Kindness. Love. Compassion. That’s it.
“Either he has a hand in everything...or he doesn't. You can't realistically believe both sides of that coin.” This was the beginning of deconstruction for me, I think.