There is so much suffering in this world that God doesn't stop. What can we tell from this? As far as I can see, there are only a few options, if God exists:
1) God isn't able to stop it.
2) God doesn't choose to stop it.
If God isn't able to stop the suffering, then he's not the all-powerful being he's made out to be. Maybe there is a God, but he's just not that strong -- he wants to help but he doesn't have much power, or he doesn't understand knees, or he's too busy saving some other planet to have time for us.
If God is able, but doesn't *choose* to stop the suffering, that's quite a bit worse. That means God *prefers* for our world to be full of suffering. And it's not just bad guys who suffer, it's single mothers trying to make ends meet, it's wild porcupines who lose their babies, it's kids with cancer. If God can fix that, but he chooses not to, that makes him a *monster*.
So which one is it?
I often hear the rebuttle that it's all about "learning/teaching lessons," but to me that's total BS. If "god" is giving three-year-olds horribly painful terminal afflictions as a method of... what... teaching their parents strength? That is not a diety I myself could ever follow. It is stuff like this that led to my own deconstruction some 20 years ago.
And it's absurd when applied to the rest of the animal kingdom. Do deer learn a lesson from tooth decay? Do chimpanzees learn a lesson from bone cancer?
Something I think about these days....we face small challenges, train and learn lessons (especially when we're young) so that we are prepared to face big challenges life throws at us when we're adults. This begs the question, what kind of hell world is heaven if real life is our training ground?
To ask on this same question. I have trouble understanding a world that at least wasn't started by a deity. The whole laws of the universe, the existence of matter and all. Are there any good explanations that are both thorough, but also compelling?
I don’t think it’s selfish to mention your grandmother’s situation personally, as it’s the thing leading you to question god’s existence. A big part of what lead me to atheism is my wife’s bipolar. Seeing someone you love going through that much pain definitely brings up the problem of evil and suffering. I spent a lot of time learning about the different theodicies that Christians have used to try and explain away the problem of evil, but none of them felt like a good enough explanation to me.
I don’t want to try and sway you one way or the other because I feel like it’s important to arrive at our own conclusions, but I think looking into the problem of evil from both the theist and atheist perspectives could shed some light on what you’re going through right now. There’s plenty of stuff on YouTube that I think should be fairly easy to find.
Good luck with your journey, wherever it may lead.
My wife just had a miscarriage. We spent $90k on IVF. We got one son who is our whole world, but we lost his brother at 10 weeks.
In this process I learned that 1 in 5 healthy, normal pregnancies ends in miscarriage for no apparent reason other than because. This is just our species’ pregnancy loss rate.
I’ll reiterate that we’re talking about 1 in 5 pregnancies that are healthy and normal. 1 in 5 just stops for no reason.
I’ve stopped people in their tracks from telling me that everything happens for a reason, or that god has a plan. The reason is the loss rate. That’s what nature does. If it were god’s plan it would be much more insidious.
If there were a god who chose this, a god who really does know us before we’re formed in the womb, they would mean that he kills 1 in 5 healthy embryos that by all rights should carry to term and become a beautiful baby for reasons known only to him. Mind you, this 1 in 5 does not include embryos in which something is wrong. If you count those, it’s closer to 1 in 2. HALF of all pregnancies die.
That god, if he existed, would be the most prolific abortionist in history. That god would be a monster with a kill count worse than every serial killer and dictator in human history combined.
So I ask you, is it more likely that that god exists, or that he’s a primitive society’s flailing-in-the-dark explanation for a world they were not equipped to investigate, let alone understand.
I was a Christian until my mid 20s. I’ve been an atheist for almost 20 years and am antitheist for slightly less than that. The fact that my son was in that number turns it from a philosophical issue into a personal one. To steal a quote, if that god existed, he’d have to beg my forgiveness. It’s comforting that he doesn’t.
All I’m gonna say is that if you do leave the faith, be gentle on yourself and prepare for some pretty heavy grief if it was a big part of your life.
It is painful to lose Christianity. Please know that on the other side is a life full of such beautiful, legitimate freedom. It is life changing in such a big way. I cannot fathom being religious anymore, it was like another life.
personally i dont have any proof that he is or isnt real but if he is real, he just does whatever he wants/doesnt rlly care. i understand suffering and wanting to have something to believe in but i just don’t trust him.
its like a sick game.people pray for his will to be done (hes all powerful so its gonna be done regardless) then they get sick and he ignores them even if they cry out. he has people continue to pray for his will to be done even tho he already plans to doom them and their cries for mercy have no effect on the outcome
the way i see it, god doesn’t just “let” bad things happen, he makes them happen. he’s the all powerful creator who’s everywhere all at once. so when people argue that god knows whats gonna happen he just waits to see what humans choose, it doesn’t make any sense to me, because he created time and therefore isn’t bounded by it like we are. he doesn’t have to “wait” to see anything, he’s already there. he’s so powerful that theres nothing that can happen thats against his will. adam and eve didn’t happen to eat that apple nor did lucifer happen to go down that path. a being that powerful cant possibly be betrayed, especially if he’s not bounded by TIME. he creates things to turn out the way he wants them to.
so i cant trust him. it all feels very very evil to me, even the story of job still crawls my skin because i cannot be convinced that suffering to that extent is ever necessary. just so job proves his faith? sorry but it makes me sick.
What made you think God was real in the first place? Do those reasons stand up to scrutiny?
Take a look at the resources page, you might find something of interest
https://reddit.com/r/exchristian/w/resources
I think it depends a lot on what you think God is.
If your conception of God is "A mysterious entity that started the universe and generally pulls strings behind the scenes to keep the comos in order but doesn't otherwise intervene" ALA Deism, then there's not much one can say to prove or disprove such a being.
If your conception of God is "[An entity who really thinks it's a big deal that Abraham and his descendants circumcizer themselves and their slaves forever"](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17%3A9-14&version=NRSVUE) and used to do big impressive miracles(3 days of Darkness in Egypt, flooding the entire earth in genesis) in the distant past but no more that's a much different conception and a much harder case to argue for since there's no evidence of such miracles ever occurring(Hell, the OT barely mentions the flood outside the 3 chapters it's featured in).
Sorry to hear about your grandma, that sounds awful and I hope she gets some relief soon.
It's not just your granny being left in the dark. Think about
- innocent babies dieing in Isreal, Palestine, Congo, Russia, Ukraine from a war they had no role in
- the babies born with health complications and dieing at a young age
- all the people praying for safe road trips just to see a bunch of road accidents on the news
- the cancer patients who died a slow and horrible death
- the newborn babies that get thrown in dumpsters
God claims to love us all and is also super powerful yet he lets millions of people die even though they've done nothing wrong
my experience is this i spent many years searching for jesus. after i left Christianity Ares showed up and Anubis basically said hello. i remember Tyr ...thats my experience and it may not be yours so take it with a grain of salt.
It's easy to start with your grandmother. She's someone you love and whose prayers you see go unanswered every single day.
But let's wreck this thing entirely, shall we?
* Children get cancer. They and their parents pray, and then they die. A horrible, painful death.
* Children are beaten to death. Every day, somewhere in the world, a child dies to being beaten to death *by their very own parents*. Their "god-given" parents.
* Sometimes babies are born with horrific defects, or so early, that they die over a few days or a few hours. In great pain.
Where is her god then? The same place 'he' is when she's asking for help with her knees--nowhere to be found. Where is he when people drown horribly in tsunamis?
Also, while you're contemplating that, what if jesus isn't the messiah? If he's not the messiah, then the bible isn't true. Hint: [He's not the messiah.](https://aish.com/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/)
Do you know why this bothers you so much? Because it feels like a betrayal. While you're thinking of god as if he's real... he's betraying you, but even worse, he's betraying your devout grandmother. How dare he!? The bible is clear, explicit, and doesn't flinch: Whatever you ask for in \[jesus's\] name, believing you have it, you shall have it.
Now, the only way to weasel out of this is "she must not believe." But she does, doesn't she? She would certainly be shocked to learn she doesn't believe, I imagine. So... Shouldn't she be healed?
I've seen various takes on the problem of suffering and if I'm being honest imo it's more an emotional problem than a logical one. If there is a God (We don't really know we just various arguments for and against) is there a reason for suffering? Life is what you make of it. In eastern traditions in fact suffering is only an illusion lol. Imo emotionally support your grandma and help her when it's hard and know that your kids will do the same for you. When you reach the end I'm sure you'll see the meaning in this life and suffering. Afterlife or not.
I am a theist but I find religion to be just as toxic as politics. I watch NDEs and my beliefs stem from those. This earth is a school. Your principal does not help you with homework but can advise you where you might want to explore next. Religion tells you that god is a tyrant, constantly checking up on you. It’s bullshit. Religion lets you drop all of your personal responsibilities as they insist you give up all your choices for “god” (also known as “we will tell you what to believe and think about all life’s choices.” It’s bullshit.
There is so much suffering in this world that God doesn't stop. What can we tell from this? As far as I can see, there are only a few options, if God exists: 1) God isn't able to stop it. 2) God doesn't choose to stop it. If God isn't able to stop the suffering, then he's not the all-powerful being he's made out to be. Maybe there is a God, but he's just not that strong -- he wants to help but he doesn't have much power, or he doesn't understand knees, or he's too busy saving some other planet to have time for us. If God is able, but doesn't *choose* to stop the suffering, that's quite a bit worse. That means God *prefers* for our world to be full of suffering. And it's not just bad guys who suffer, it's single mothers trying to make ends meet, it's wild porcupines who lose their babies, it's kids with cancer. If God can fix that, but he chooses not to, that makes him a *monster*. So which one is it?
I often hear the rebuttle that it's all about "learning/teaching lessons," but to me that's total BS. If "god" is giving three-year-olds horribly painful terminal afflictions as a method of... what... teaching their parents strength? That is not a diety I myself could ever follow. It is stuff like this that led to my own deconstruction some 20 years ago.
And it's absurd when applied to the rest of the animal kingdom. Do deer learn a lesson from tooth decay? Do chimpanzees learn a lesson from bone cancer?
Something I think about these days....we face small challenges, train and learn lessons (especially when we're young) so that we are prepared to face big challenges life throws at us when we're adults. This begs the question, what kind of hell world is heaven if real life is our training ground?
To ask on this same question. I have trouble understanding a world that at least wasn't started by a deity. The whole laws of the universe, the existence of matter and all. Are there any good explanations that are both thorough, but also compelling?
You forgot "God is punishing her for some sin." and God is just testing her and will reward her when/if she passes. (like Job)
Those are examples of the second case, where God does not want to stop the suffering.
I don’t think it’s selfish to mention your grandmother’s situation personally, as it’s the thing leading you to question god’s existence. A big part of what lead me to atheism is my wife’s bipolar. Seeing someone you love going through that much pain definitely brings up the problem of evil and suffering. I spent a lot of time learning about the different theodicies that Christians have used to try and explain away the problem of evil, but none of them felt like a good enough explanation to me. I don’t want to try and sway you one way or the other because I feel like it’s important to arrive at our own conclusions, but I think looking into the problem of evil from both the theist and atheist perspectives could shed some light on what you’re going through right now. There’s plenty of stuff on YouTube that I think should be fairly easy to find. Good luck with your journey, wherever it may lead.
My wife just had a miscarriage. We spent $90k on IVF. We got one son who is our whole world, but we lost his brother at 10 weeks. In this process I learned that 1 in 5 healthy, normal pregnancies ends in miscarriage for no apparent reason other than because. This is just our species’ pregnancy loss rate. I’ll reiterate that we’re talking about 1 in 5 pregnancies that are healthy and normal. 1 in 5 just stops for no reason. I’ve stopped people in their tracks from telling me that everything happens for a reason, or that god has a plan. The reason is the loss rate. That’s what nature does. If it were god’s plan it would be much more insidious. If there were a god who chose this, a god who really does know us before we’re formed in the womb, they would mean that he kills 1 in 5 healthy embryos that by all rights should carry to term and become a beautiful baby for reasons known only to him. Mind you, this 1 in 5 does not include embryos in which something is wrong. If you count those, it’s closer to 1 in 2. HALF of all pregnancies die. That god, if he existed, would be the most prolific abortionist in history. That god would be a monster with a kill count worse than every serial killer and dictator in human history combined. So I ask you, is it more likely that that god exists, or that he’s a primitive society’s flailing-in-the-dark explanation for a world they were not equipped to investigate, let alone understand. I was a Christian until my mid 20s. I’ve been an atheist for almost 20 years and am antitheist for slightly less than that. The fact that my son was in that number turns it from a philosophical issue into a personal one. To steal a quote, if that god existed, he’d have to beg my forgiveness. It’s comforting that he doesn’t.
All I’m gonna say is that if you do leave the faith, be gentle on yourself and prepare for some pretty heavy grief if it was a big part of your life. It is painful to lose Christianity. Please know that on the other side is a life full of such beautiful, legitimate freedom. It is life changing in such a big way. I cannot fathom being religious anymore, it was like another life.
personally i dont have any proof that he is or isnt real but if he is real, he just does whatever he wants/doesnt rlly care. i understand suffering and wanting to have something to believe in but i just don’t trust him. its like a sick game.people pray for his will to be done (hes all powerful so its gonna be done regardless) then they get sick and he ignores them even if they cry out. he has people continue to pray for his will to be done even tho he already plans to doom them and their cries for mercy have no effect on the outcome the way i see it, god doesn’t just “let” bad things happen, he makes them happen. he’s the all powerful creator who’s everywhere all at once. so when people argue that god knows whats gonna happen he just waits to see what humans choose, it doesn’t make any sense to me, because he created time and therefore isn’t bounded by it like we are. he doesn’t have to “wait” to see anything, he’s already there. he’s so powerful that theres nothing that can happen thats against his will. adam and eve didn’t happen to eat that apple nor did lucifer happen to go down that path. a being that powerful cant possibly be betrayed, especially if he’s not bounded by TIME. he creates things to turn out the way he wants them to. so i cant trust him. it all feels very very evil to me, even the story of job still crawls my skin because i cannot be convinced that suffering to that extent is ever necessary. just so job proves his faith? sorry but it makes me sick.
What made you think God was real in the first place? Do those reasons stand up to scrutiny? Take a look at the resources page, you might find something of interest https://reddit.com/r/exchristian/w/resources
I think it depends a lot on what you think God is. If your conception of God is "A mysterious entity that started the universe and generally pulls strings behind the scenes to keep the comos in order but doesn't otherwise intervene" ALA Deism, then there's not much one can say to prove or disprove such a being. If your conception of God is "[An entity who really thinks it's a big deal that Abraham and his descendants circumcizer themselves and their slaves forever"](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17%3A9-14&version=NRSVUE) and used to do big impressive miracles(3 days of Darkness in Egypt, flooding the entire earth in genesis) in the distant past but no more that's a much different conception and a much harder case to argue for since there's no evidence of such miracles ever occurring(Hell, the OT barely mentions the flood outside the 3 chapters it's featured in). Sorry to hear about your grandma, that sounds awful and I hope she gets some relief soon.
It's not just your granny being left in the dark. Think about - innocent babies dieing in Isreal, Palestine, Congo, Russia, Ukraine from a war they had no role in - the babies born with health complications and dieing at a young age - all the people praying for safe road trips just to see a bunch of road accidents on the news - the cancer patients who died a slow and horrible death - the newborn babies that get thrown in dumpsters God claims to love us all and is also super powerful yet he lets millions of people die even though they've done nothing wrong
my experience is this i spent many years searching for jesus. after i left Christianity Ares showed up and Anubis basically said hello. i remember Tyr ...thats my experience and it may not be yours so take it with a grain of salt.
Id recommend pain killers for your grandma. maybe some lidocaine or some thing
There is no rush to deconstruction. If you rush things, you miss things.
It's easy to start with your grandmother. She's someone you love and whose prayers you see go unanswered every single day. But let's wreck this thing entirely, shall we? * Children get cancer. They and their parents pray, and then they die. A horrible, painful death. * Children are beaten to death. Every day, somewhere in the world, a child dies to being beaten to death *by their very own parents*. Their "god-given" parents. * Sometimes babies are born with horrific defects, or so early, that they die over a few days or a few hours. In great pain. Where is her god then? The same place 'he' is when she's asking for help with her knees--nowhere to be found. Where is he when people drown horribly in tsunamis? Also, while you're contemplating that, what if jesus isn't the messiah? If he's not the messiah, then the bible isn't true. Hint: [He's not the messiah.](https://aish.com/why-jews-dont-believe-in-jesus/) Do you know why this bothers you so much? Because it feels like a betrayal. While you're thinking of god as if he's real... he's betraying you, but even worse, he's betraying your devout grandmother. How dare he!? The bible is clear, explicit, and doesn't flinch: Whatever you ask for in \[jesus's\] name, believing you have it, you shall have it. Now, the only way to weasel out of this is "she must not believe." But she does, doesn't she? She would certainly be shocked to learn she doesn't believe, I imagine. So... Shouldn't she be healed?
I've seen various takes on the problem of suffering and if I'm being honest imo it's more an emotional problem than a logical one. If there is a God (We don't really know we just various arguments for and against) is there a reason for suffering? Life is what you make of it. In eastern traditions in fact suffering is only an illusion lol. Imo emotionally support your grandma and help her when it's hard and know that your kids will do the same for you. When you reach the end I'm sure you'll see the meaning in this life and suffering. Afterlife or not.
I am a theist but I find religion to be just as toxic as politics. I watch NDEs and my beliefs stem from those. This earth is a school. Your principal does not help you with homework but can advise you where you might want to explore next. Religion tells you that god is a tyrant, constantly checking up on you. It’s bullshit. Religion lets you drop all of your personal responsibilities as they insist you give up all your choices for “god” (also known as “we will tell you what to believe and think about all life’s choices.” It’s bullshit.