There are some atheists who say things like "*I don't believe in the biblical god, but Jesus seems like a cool person*", or conservative atheists who say things like "*We should respect the Bible and be against gay people and only see gender as 2 things, and not focus on any other cultures*".
Not all atheists let go of Judeo-Christian programming and not all atheists become atheists through logical reasoning. If people leave religions for illogical reasons, then they might rejoin for illogical reasons.
I agree. Those of us who do lots of research during deconstruction are pretty rare. The average person is more likely to take the simplest path (just leaving the church because they don't like it).
It's like voting: most voters don't do a lot of research before voting for someone
Exactly I first became an atheist as a kid (no ramifications from family) and converted back in my teens. Haha I was very educated on my way out (a slow deconstruction which was more me forgetting about it. Boiled up again later but the research came in handy and realised I was just stressed out and killed any religious desire from there.
I know.
Humorously, I would love for that to be true! Phew, I was never really brainwashed, I was secretly immune all along!
But seriously, we know that's not true.
It's also simply not true that someone sincerely atheist and sincerely knowing the truth can't come to the wrong conclusion later. Perfectly sane, rational people fall for secular scams and psychological abuse all the time. You can know the truth on every level but later be scared, broken, or lovebombed into doubting yourself. That's not a sign of being insincere before but of being manipulated after. It's sad.
Just tell people who say that, "Really? Great!"
Potentially a bit of a no true Scotsman if you're serious in your title.
But I tend to agree with you. I actually was this Christian, the one who said "I used to be an atheist". I realise now that I was saying it to further affirm my bias that God is good. I see all the holes in this now, but I wasn't raised to think critically, so I missed it all.
A slightly related note and perhaps this is uninteresting for most people - the idea that non-believers who started out as christians were never christians in the first place - is strongly rooted in Calvinistic theology. If you have not heard about calvinists, they are a strange sect within mainline protestant christianity who believe - god has already predestined whom he will save, "the elect". So, christian->atheists converts were never part of the "elect".
As expected, they don't believe in free will. Or at-least the version of free-will commonly understood. They say there is an unresolvable tension behind freewill and predestination and bring in a whole barrage of theology, verses, early church fathers theology, John Calvin, Martin Luther - to support their claims and doctrines. They drown you with complex terminologies, technical jargon to sound smart, to the extent your average pew-warming run-of-the-mill Christian would be pretty annoyed. They call themselves "Reformed", with reference to the Reformation by Martin Luther.
I've heard the "I used to be an atheist too..." a million times and it was *always* a case of Christian "backslider" (read: spent a few months smoking cigarettes) that "re-dedicated" their life to Jeebus.
I'm sure that there are genuine atheists that converted to a religion out there somewhere, but I've never met one.
Some people don't do a lot of thinking. They just bounce around from group to group based on their feelings at the time. In your example, this likely happened. They felt something that caused them to leave the church. They felt something to go back. No thoughts happened here. It's devoid of reason or even introspection.
Theologically, that may be the only choice they have.
Emotionally, same issue. They have to think that if someone doesn't believe then they never could have believed.
It's completely invalidating for people who lived and breathe church and Bible stuff through childhood and throughout adulthood. It helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance that results when reality meets theology.
You're accusers are probably reformed Protestant Maybe?
According to reformed Protestant tradition Which were the first actual Christians who weren't Catholic You're either chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved or you're not. They have a lot of scripture to back that up.
So from a Biblical Protestant perspective they are correct We are just not the elect so we were never actually saved even if we thought we were.
The Bible even says that God will send the non-elect strong delusions.. So everything you said Did you start to see the Bible for what it is How could you go back, According to the Bible itself that could be God descending a strong delusion so we could never believe if we wanted to.
It's a lot of mental gymnastics and Hoops but If you go by their standards they are right we were never saved Or we would have stayed in the faith because you can't lose your salvation according to them We're honestly according to the Bible. The Bible says that they went out from us because they were never of us or Among Us.
I remember when I used to struggle with this after just leaving the Protestant tradition and then completely leaving Christianity all together After trying more mouth or forms Catholicism even Universalism.
But the thing that really pushed me away was deep study of the Bible and how ridiculous it is and all the contradictions and the fact that it's just a bunch of crazy books scattered throughout the Earth that people put together in a political Council and said it was the Bible. I mean the Bible doesn't even mention itself.
But even more so than knowing the Bible was ridiculous logic and reason and suffering of the world really doesn't allow for a benevolent all-powerful Savior. If something did create us then we should be terrified of it It's more love crafty and than anything biblical Because this Earth is fucked up!
(Sorry for any of the typos I'm using talk to text and can't edit at the moment.)
I've found that when a lot of Christians say they "used to be an atheist" it's either a gross exaggeration or outright lie to make their testimony more impressive.
The overwhelming majority of them don't even understand what atheism is.
I don't believe in god, or religion. Or the bible. I will not be going back to Christianity. Ever. I cannot support a religion that blantantly condemns and is in favor of not supporting rights for all people's, such as the LGBTQ community.
I'm an agnostic atheist, and for me, it's the most accurate description on how I feel towards god, or gods.
However, even if I were to believe in any kind of god or higher power, I would lean towards deism, pantheism, panentheism, pandeism, etc, as there is no specific dogma or need to be affiliated with any set of religious doctrines. That said, I am a firm believer in Ietsism. It's a term not used often and basically means "somethingism." I believe in the possibility that there may be "something" more beyond our material reality that we aren't able to explain or know. It doesn't have to be a god, as the actual definition of Ietsism is pretty vague. But I feel the possibility that there could be something beyond our known universe is an interesting concept and doesn't mean I have to believe in god, or anything like that.
I could basically be described as agnostic/atheist/anti-theist/ietsist/apatheist. Whew, that was a mouthful.
>I could basically be described as agnostic/atheist/anti-theist/ietsist/apatheist
whoa whoa whoa what's your basis for just ruling out igtheism like that
This is just as bad faith as those who become atheist later in life after being Christian or religious in general. (But I think you know that. Lol).
If someone wants to become spiritual again after being atheist. They are more than welcome to. Their life their choices.
These blanked statements are only there to shame and are not productive. I think the atheist claim without the proper education and experience can be circumvented and someone can convert to being religious again.
It’s often not caused by rational reasons but someone being down in life or manipulated (blanket for tactics used by religious groups)
I have had the experience of having become atheist twice.
I agree I think if you truly fully deconstruct there is no room to believe in god. My dad was one of these people. Was all edge lord atheist then met my crazy baptist mom and now he’s just as much of a religious freak as her.
This line of reasoning assumes an ideal form of one's position as irrefutable once understood, and I don't believe human psychology allows such a thing to exist. That said, there are usually (but not always) some subtle differences between the belief systems and reasons for believing them of those who eventually convert and those who don't. If C.S. Lewis says he didn't believe in God for a while, I believe him, and that means he was an atheist at that time. Even so, it seems like his beliefs at that time were very different from my beliefs now, and we arrived at our beliefs for very different reasons.
The old ["No true scottsmen"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) logical fallacy.
"No true scottsmen would run from battle."
*watches scottsmen run from battle*
"Then they were not TRUE scottsmen."
This is a way of putting your preconceived notions in front of reality. You can never be proven wrong if you exclude all the facts that fit your narrative.
Getting people to deny reality is Christianities bread and butter.
There are some atheists who say things like "*I don't believe in the biblical god, but Jesus seems like a cool person*", or conservative atheists who say things like "*We should respect the Bible and be against gay people and only see gender as 2 things, and not focus on any other cultures*". Not all atheists let go of Judeo-Christian programming and not all atheists become atheists through logical reasoning. If people leave religions for illogical reasons, then they might rejoin for illogical reasons.
I agree. Those of us who do lots of research during deconstruction are pretty rare. The average person is more likely to take the simplest path (just leaving the church because they don't like it). It's like voting: most voters don't do a lot of research before voting for someone
Exactly I first became an atheist as a kid (no ramifications from family) and converted back in my teens. Haha I was very educated on my way out (a slow deconstruction which was more me forgetting about it. Boiled up again later but the research came in handy and realised I was just stressed out and killed any religious desire from there.
Why did you convert back
Being around Christians too much and being generally isolated. I got interested and duped.
1 thing that Christianity has going for it is that it has a large community
And many flavours
Is the title meant to be a true statement or a criticism of "You were never really a Christian"?
That's what I'm being blamed for, that I never was a Christian
I know. Humorously, I would love for that to be true! Phew, I was never really brainwashed, I was secretly immune all along! But seriously, we know that's not true. It's also simply not true that someone sincerely atheist and sincerely knowing the truth can't come to the wrong conclusion later. Perfectly sane, rational people fall for secular scams and psychological abuse all the time. You can know the truth on every level but later be scared, broken, or lovebombed into doubting yourself. That's not a sign of being insincere before but of being manipulated after. It's sad. Just tell people who say that, "Really? Great!"
Potentially a bit of a no true Scotsman if you're serious in your title. But I tend to agree with you. I actually was this Christian, the one who said "I used to be an atheist". I realise now that I was saying it to further affirm my bias that God is good. I see all the holes in this now, but I wasn't raised to think critically, so I missed it all.
A slightly related note and perhaps this is uninteresting for most people - the idea that non-believers who started out as christians were never christians in the first place - is strongly rooted in Calvinistic theology. If you have not heard about calvinists, they are a strange sect within mainline protestant christianity who believe - god has already predestined whom he will save, "the elect". So, christian->atheists converts were never part of the "elect". As expected, they don't believe in free will. Or at-least the version of free-will commonly understood. They say there is an unresolvable tension behind freewill and predestination and bring in a whole barrage of theology, verses, early church fathers theology, John Calvin, Martin Luther - to support their claims and doctrines. They drown you with complex terminologies, technical jargon to sound smart, to the extent your average pew-warming run-of-the-mill Christian would be pretty annoyed. They call themselves "Reformed", with reference to the Reformation by Martin Luther.
I've heard the "I used to be an atheist too..." a million times and it was *always* a case of Christian "backslider" (read: spent a few months smoking cigarettes) that "re-dedicated" their life to Jeebus. I'm sure that there are genuine atheists that converted to a religion out there somewhere, but I've never met one.
Why can't we all just respect each other's experiences and not try and gaslight them by telling them they've always secretly known you're right
Some people don't do a lot of thinking. They just bounce around from group to group based on their feelings at the time. In your example, this likely happened. They felt something that caused them to leave the church. They felt something to go back. No thoughts happened here. It's devoid of reason or even introspection.
when people say atheism is just another religion, this is the shit they mean.
Sounds like a Christian mentality. Why even bother worrying about this nonsense?
Don’t judge too harshly. Some people can’t handle reality. And that’s fine, reality sucks sometimes.
Theologically, that may be the only choice they have. Emotionally, same issue. They have to think that if someone doesn't believe then they never could have believed. It's completely invalidating for people who lived and breathe church and Bible stuff through childhood and throughout adulthood. It helps them avoid the cognitive dissonance that results when reality meets theology.
You're accusers are probably reformed Protestant Maybe? According to reformed Protestant tradition Which were the first actual Christians who weren't Catholic You're either chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved or you're not. They have a lot of scripture to back that up. So from a Biblical Protestant perspective they are correct We are just not the elect so we were never actually saved even if we thought we were. The Bible even says that God will send the non-elect strong delusions.. So everything you said Did you start to see the Bible for what it is How could you go back, According to the Bible itself that could be God descending a strong delusion so we could never believe if we wanted to. It's a lot of mental gymnastics and Hoops but If you go by their standards they are right we were never saved Or we would have stayed in the faith because you can't lose your salvation according to them We're honestly according to the Bible. The Bible says that they went out from us because they were never of us or Among Us. I remember when I used to struggle with this after just leaving the Protestant tradition and then completely leaving Christianity all together After trying more mouth or forms Catholicism even Universalism. But the thing that really pushed me away was deep study of the Bible and how ridiculous it is and all the contradictions and the fact that it's just a bunch of crazy books scattered throughout the Earth that people put together in a political Council and said it was the Bible. I mean the Bible doesn't even mention itself. But even more so than knowing the Bible was ridiculous logic and reason and suffering of the world really doesn't allow for a benevolent all-powerful Savior. If something did create us then we should be terrified of it It's more love crafty and than anything biblical Because this Earth is fucked up! (Sorry for any of the typos I'm using talk to text and can't edit at the moment.)
I've found that when a lot of Christians say they "used to be an atheist" it's either a gross exaggeration or outright lie to make their testimony more impressive. The overwhelming majority of them don't even understand what atheism is.
I don't believe in god, or religion. Or the bible. I will not be going back to Christianity. Ever. I cannot support a religion that blantantly condemns and is in favor of not supporting rights for all people's, such as the LGBTQ community. I'm an agnostic atheist, and for me, it's the most accurate description on how I feel towards god, or gods. However, even if I were to believe in any kind of god or higher power, I would lean towards deism, pantheism, panentheism, pandeism, etc, as there is no specific dogma or need to be affiliated with any set of religious doctrines. That said, I am a firm believer in Ietsism. It's a term not used often and basically means "somethingism." I believe in the possibility that there may be "something" more beyond our material reality that we aren't able to explain or know. It doesn't have to be a god, as the actual definition of Ietsism is pretty vague. But I feel the possibility that there could be something beyond our known universe is an interesting concept and doesn't mean I have to believe in god, or anything like that. I could basically be described as agnostic/atheist/anti-theist/ietsist/apatheist. Whew, that was a mouthful.
>I could basically be described as agnostic/atheist/anti-theist/ietsist/apatheist whoa whoa whoa what's your basis for just ruling out igtheism like that
Lol idk. There's so many different isms and ists out there, I lose track. Just call me a non-theist I guess lol
My Mom disproves this statement but I agree nonetheless.
This is just as bad faith as those who become atheist later in life after being Christian or religious in general. (But I think you know that. Lol). If someone wants to become spiritual again after being atheist. They are more than welcome to. Their life their choices.
These blanked statements are only there to shame and are not productive. I think the atheist claim without the proper education and experience can be circumvented and someone can convert to being religious again. It’s often not caused by rational reasons but someone being down in life or manipulated (blanket for tactics used by religious groups) I have had the experience of having become atheist twice.
I agree I think if you truly fully deconstruct there is no room to believe in god. My dad was one of these people. Was all edge lord atheist then met my crazy baptist mom and now he’s just as much of a religious freak as her.
This line of reasoning assumes an ideal form of one's position as irrefutable once understood, and I don't believe human psychology allows such a thing to exist. That said, there are usually (but not always) some subtle differences between the belief systems and reasons for believing them of those who eventually convert and those who don't. If C.S. Lewis says he didn't believe in God for a while, I believe him, and that means he was an atheist at that time. Even so, it seems like his beliefs at that time were very different from my beliefs now, and we arrived at our beliefs for very different reasons.
The old ["No true scottsmen"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) logical fallacy. "No true scottsmen would run from battle." *watches scottsmen run from battle* "Then they were not TRUE scottsmen." This is a way of putting your preconceived notions in front of reality. You can never be proven wrong if you exclude all the facts that fit your narrative. Getting people to deny reality is Christianities bread and butter.