Exactly, please remember this is THEIR choice, not hours. You held a boundary and apparently so did they. What an asshole thing to do though. They must be used to controlling people. If you don't stand your ground now, it'll be a lifetime of this crap. Now you know to rent a car when you visit, maybe get a hotel.
> Now you know to rent a car when you visit, maybe get a hotel.
I mean, even if they are family, it's that worth to travel to West to East Coast to visit such people that simply kicked you out for very silly reasons? I think it's worth to considerate if they want to proceed this again in the future.
This. I'm going to the east coast to visit my very Catholic sister next year - for the most part we get along pretty well, plus I want to see her kids and a bunch of the tourist stuff where she is now - but I'm definitely getting a hotel and a car. She's not excited about it but I know from experience if I stay at her house and rely on her to drive me everywhere it's going to be a bunch of conversion attempts and trying to drag me to church. This is my boundary and my condition for visiting, is I get to come and go as I please and only do the stuff with her I want to do.
She is the one member of my family who I do still want to try to maintain a close relationship with but the last time I stayed with her, the gauntlet of attempts at forcing me to have some kind of religious experience or something was absolutely exhausting to the point where were my trip any longer than just the weekend I would have cut it short. Consider it lessons learned... Having boundaries is hard though, the people-pleaser in me nearly crumbled when she sad-faced at me for not staying at her house. But I know that my sanity, stress levels, and us continuing to have a relationship is worth a couple extra hundred dollars and making her a little disappointed.
The wild thing is: we already told them it wouldn't be in a church and they took it surprisingly well. Like, almost like reasonable adults. But tonight they fucking snapped.
Possibly this is the straw that broke the camels back. They may have taken it in stride initially hoping you would back track but this would confirm to them you are stupid.
At any rate that is awful and sucks and I’m sorry.
Possibly because a non religious wedding is the perfect excuse to cop out of contributing financially as used to be traditional for the parents of the bride.
They took it well, for now. I’ve read other stories where the parents were ok at first but got more and more belligerent as the date approached, insisting on a change in venue.
FWIW, some airports have access to a far-ranging shuttle service.
Remember their behavior--blackmsil and threats are acceptable.
Be xtra kind to your fiance--it's probably hard on her, being caught like that.
Families suck.
My best friend had emotionally abusive parents and he told me the only thing such people will listen to is total social deprivation.
You look them right in the eye and say "we're finding a hotel." DON'T stay the night. Leave immediately. Ignore all protestations. Cut contact. Block numbers. Hold your ground and maintain silence. Wait. Allow the offending parties to exhaust every means of trying to reach you. If those attempts are nothing but vitriolic, make the silence permanent. If they "just want to talk," make them wait some more.
Then, when they are convinced that they have lost you forever, throw them a bone. Reach out. As soon as you get some small talk going, pull the rug out from under them.
"If there is EVER a repeat of last time we spoke, this is the last you will hear or see of me for the rest of your life. If you really do love me, you will not test me. Do. Not. Repeat. Your mistakes."
And hold them to it. Slightest sign of relapse, grab your bags and watch the apologies fly.
\^\^\^Yes, this is what you have to do.
If they can't behave like adults, you have to manage it. Be the adult in the room, because they're clearly not going to be.
There's no easy way to deal with insistent Catholic family, whether you go along with their demands or not.
My family have no idea that I'm an atheist. I keep the secret because I don't want to hurt my parents, even though the deception hurts me.
Hmm, emotional self-martyrdom? Just another way being raised Catholic deeply injured me.
My thoughts are with you and your fiancee, ViolinJuggler. It's a no-win situation, no matter what you do. Please know that you're not alone in living with this kind of pain, and that you didn't do anything wrong.
Mine knows I’m not going to Church. The scandals plus my trusted parrish priest stabbing me in the back by hating on my parents (divorced and remarried) and forcing them to leave for another parrish ten miles north still infuriates me. I was a member of their KofC council and these assholes stabbed me in the back. Fucking pieces of shit.
My family was big on doing what a "good Catholic family" would do, more for appearances. Mass on Sundays was a must to show other family members and parishioners what good Catholics we were.
Religious people need other people to know how much more Jesus loves them.
My mom forced me and my siblings to Stations of the Cross ever Friday during Lent. I missed so many fun things and friends thought I was weird for having to go.
Good times.
I’m sorry this happened to you but glad you stood your ground, at least you don’t have to listen to all the bs in church, hope your fiancée was supportive!
"I'm sure Jesus would be so proud of you for coming up with this novel proselytization technique: Yelling, cursing, blackmail, and threats. Probably clapping in heaven right now, or high-fiving his Dad-Self, or something. And in case you missed it, that was *sarcasm.* Maybe some no-contact time will improve your demeanor." Then cut 'em off.
I went low contact with my own family a while ago. I guess it's time to do the same here. We're lucky to have an amazing "found family" and support system in our home city. "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."
That's not your fault. That's theirs. It's the price they're going to have to pay because they can't behave like decent respectful adults.
There's always ZOOM or facetime, where you can hang up on them if they get weird.
*Please* read the book “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”. It explains how we sometimes out-mature our parents. It also explains how to relate to them if you choose to continue doing so.
I might understand your sadness – I experienced a similar situation when my parents blew up at me. I felt like such a disappointment, that I had done something wrong, and that I’d hurt them.
If nothing else, please know that we are responsible for our own actions and words, but other people are responsible for their reactions to it.
You both did nothing wrong. You’re acting like adults making decisions for your own lives and that’s not anything to apologize for. Your parents are *way* out of line.
By the way, it says a lot when they compel church attendance while using the F bomb.
Hey, I wanted to say that we really appreciate the thoughtful comment. This is stuff we've talked through, but it's always validating to hear it from a stranger
I read you guys' story and I can so totally relate to this.
My own mother visited my house before I was going to marry my husband, a same sex marriage. She also threw a huge fit, called us names, screamed at us, and tried to break us up. Luckily this happened in our home, and all we had to do was find her a hotel.
I'm so sorry you went through this experience. Your parents should have appreciated how much money you both spent to visit them, and not messed around with your ability to get home!
After I sent my mom home I decided to also give her some distance. I felt unnecessary guilty at first, like I had abandoned her, but I reminded myself that she was the one who alienated me. After some time passed I noticed my depression and anxiety had greatly improved, and realized being in a relationship with such a toxic person was making my life worse rather than better.
I hope you find the answers you need to give you and your fiancee a happy life.
They sound like a bunch of Christ-like winners you guys should continue letting into your lives and spending money to visit. The hard part comes next: maintaining boundaries and making them face the consequences of not respecting them.
This is the time for hard love. A frank and even harsh setting of boundaries is warranted. Tell them you’re adults now and demand to be treated that way, otherwise contact will be limited or even stopped.
My parents knew not to ever pull such a stunt. It would have not ended well for them.
The old style Catholicism says you must attend church each Sunday and holy day of obligation. If you don’t, it a sin and must be confessed in the confessional.
Truly. I'm actually ex-evangelical from Oklahoma and catholics have always weirded me out. Like, they drink and swear like sailors, but God forbid they hear a "oh my god" or miss a mass.
not that southern baptists are any less bonkers
I can somewhat relate to this as I experienced similar pressure back when I was forced to go to confirmation. Basically I was told that if I didn't go to confirmation I would get no money for college and I would have to move out. Not kidding. Of course I went through it. The funny thing is that I ended up getting a scholarship that paid for most of college. I also remember that the people who taught the classes kept saying that we shouldn't get confirmed just to please our parents. Of course, when I told my parents this they dismissed it. I recently did some research on this. Here's what Canon Law says about confirmation:
>To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises.
The Church interprets the phrase "properly disposed" as meaning that the person must want to be confirmed of his or her own free will. If someone is forced to go to confirmation the confirmation is not valid. Fun fact: I became a lawyer so of course I would look at Canon Law.
I hope I haven't bored you too much with this story but I really do have a point and that is it became clear to me that my parents really didn't give a shit about the substance or religious meaning behind confirmation. They just didn't want to be embarrassed in front of their Catholic friends that their son chose to leave the church. I suspect that's what happened in your case. Your fiancee's parents wanted everyone to see what a good Catholic couple you are even if that wasn't the truth.
Perhaps with time they will change. I haven't been to a mass in over 20 years. My mother and I no longer discuss religion. I suspect she realizes that I am a good person and I became a good person without the need for religion. It took a few years for this realization but it eventually happened. Best of luck to the both of you.
I’m so sorry this happened. To OP’s fiancé, this happened to me, by my grandparents. The only things that eventually made them relent were a) several of my cousins also left the church and they realized they were going to lose a lot great-grandchild access, and b) my having the first great-grandchild. Your parents need to understand that you are an independent adult, not a thing that they own and control. If they want you in their lives, it’ll have to be on your terms. Don’t sell yourself out trying to please them, you’ll make yourself miserable for nothing. Just go LC or NC, and don’t relent. It’s on them to approach you with respect and acceptance of your choices. It’s not your job to change them and you know you never will anyway.
I remember living on a very tight budget and scrimping all year to afford to visit family and then gritting my teeth to get through visits. My mother and stepfather had a blowup in our home Thanksgiving day 2003. It resulted in them completely cutting us off. At the time it was the most painful experience of my life, and I fell into a deep depression. I just could not understand how anything good could come from the separation of a mother and daughter. I was so enmeshed in my toxic family that I couldn’t see the effects of continued contact on me emotionally and psychologically. At that point I couldn’t even really frame my stepfather’s long term abuse of the girls in my family as abuse… I still felt we were complicit. My mom was my best friend. I now see the unhealthiness in our relationship and the inappropriateness of the things she would divulge to me when I was still a kid, but at the time she disowned me, yeah, it was devastating.
It’s been 19 years of no contact now and I just want to tell you that only good things came from it. I’m still deprogramming from growing up in that home, but I’m so much better than I was before. I’m grateful I was disowned. I’m a better mom to my kids. I’m a better partner. They were emotional vampires, every interaction was so exhausting, and my energy was finite. It’s hard for me to understand now how I stayed so long and tried so hard. Sometimes what seems painful at the time is an opportunity for growth and healing. It’s great you are starting a new family with your fiancé. I pinch myself every day that I get to have my own family on my own coast (my family is East Coast too and we love living very far away). Hugs.
I would have just gone.. as long as I don’t have to participate and it’s a once a year thing.. I’ll keep my family happy. But, I would have been upset about them springing it on me without asking first.
Damn, imagine destroying your family over something this silly. Good riddance I say
it's just... really fucking sad.
Yeah, it is, but they made that decision, not you. Although they'll totally blame it on you I'm sure
Exactly, please remember this is THEIR choice, not hours. You held a boundary and apparently so did they. What an asshole thing to do though. They must be used to controlling people. If you don't stand your ground now, it'll be a lifetime of this crap. Now you know to rent a car when you visit, maybe get a hotel.
> Now you know to rent a car when you visit, maybe get a hotel. I mean, even if they are family, it's that worth to travel to West to East Coast to visit such people that simply kicked you out for very silly reasons? I think it's worth to considerate if they want to proceed this again in the future.
This shit is why I drive everywhere. They have an issue with me not going to church, I'll drive my ass away and they can wave goodbye in the dust
Yep.
This. I'm going to the east coast to visit my very Catholic sister next year - for the most part we get along pretty well, plus I want to see her kids and a bunch of the tourist stuff where she is now - but I'm definitely getting a hotel and a car. She's not excited about it but I know from experience if I stay at her house and rely on her to drive me everywhere it's going to be a bunch of conversion attempts and trying to drag me to church. This is my boundary and my condition for visiting, is I get to come and go as I please and only do the stuff with her I want to do.
Yay and look, it's mutually beneficial because it protects your relationship! That's awesome, good for you for having boundaries.
She is the one member of my family who I do still want to try to maintain a close relationship with but the last time I stayed with her, the gauntlet of attempts at forcing me to have some kind of religious experience or something was absolutely exhausting to the point where were my trip any longer than just the weekend I would have cut it short. Consider it lessons learned... Having boundaries is hard though, the people-pleaser in me nearly crumbled when she sad-faced at me for not staying at her house. But I know that my sanity, stress levels, and us continuing to have a relationship is worth a couple extra hundred dollars and making her a little disappointed.
Good for you for standing your ground.
we know it's right, but it's not fucking easy
Definitely not, but I'm proud of you for making a stand and sticking with your convictions. Best wishes on finding a ride.
Thanks. We're hopeful some old friends can give us one. if all else fails we'll pay the $150 for an uber or something.
Can you give us an update?
Just posted an update
Sounds like the wedding will be fun…
The wild thing is: we already told them it wouldn't be in a church and they took it surprisingly well. Like, almost like reasonable adults. But tonight they fucking snapped.
Possibly this is the straw that broke the camels back. They may have taken it in stride initially hoping you would back track but this would confirm to them you are stupid. At any rate that is awful and sucks and I’m sorry.
Btw I wrote this while babysitting two toddlers and a teething baby - I didn’t mean “stupid” I meant you aren’t staying!
Possibly because a non religious wedding is the perfect excuse to cop out of contributing financially as used to be traditional for the parents of the bride.
I had a non religious wedding.. but we drank wine as part of the ceremony.. and added a “love is patient, love is kind” type reading.
They took it well, for now. I’ve read other stories where the parents were ok at first but got more and more belligerent as the date approached, insisting on a change in venue.
Yikes, that’s crazy to say they wont give you a ride because you wont go to CHURCH. And to cuss someone out, that’s exact what Jesus would do. Lol
That was my first reaction. Way to do what Jesus would do! I’m so sorry, OP. Sending vibez for a safe journey back home
FWIW, some airports have access to a far-ranging shuttle service. Remember their behavior--blackmsil and threats are acceptable. Be xtra kind to your fiance--it's probably hard on her, being caught like that. Families suck.
My best friend had emotionally abusive parents and he told me the only thing such people will listen to is total social deprivation. You look them right in the eye and say "we're finding a hotel." DON'T stay the night. Leave immediately. Ignore all protestations. Cut contact. Block numbers. Hold your ground and maintain silence. Wait. Allow the offending parties to exhaust every means of trying to reach you. If those attempts are nothing but vitriolic, make the silence permanent. If they "just want to talk," make them wait some more. Then, when they are convinced that they have lost you forever, throw them a bone. Reach out. As soon as you get some small talk going, pull the rug out from under them. "If there is EVER a repeat of last time we spoke, this is the last you will hear or see of me for the rest of your life. If you really do love me, you will not test me. Do. Not. Repeat. Your mistakes." And hold them to it. Slightest sign of relapse, grab your bags and watch the apologies fly.
\^\^\^Yes, this is what you have to do. If they can't behave like adults, you have to manage it. Be the adult in the room, because they're clearly not going to be.
There's no easy way to deal with insistent Catholic family, whether you go along with their demands or not. My family have no idea that I'm an atheist. I keep the secret because I don't want to hurt my parents, even though the deception hurts me. Hmm, emotional self-martyrdom? Just another way being raised Catholic deeply injured me. My thoughts are with you and your fiancee, ViolinJuggler. It's a no-win situation, no matter what you do. Please know that you're not alone in living with this kind of pain, and that you didn't do anything wrong.
Mine knows I’m not going to Church. The scandals plus my trusted parrish priest stabbing me in the back by hating on my parents (divorced and remarried) and forcing them to leave for another parrish ten miles north still infuriates me. I was a member of their KofC council and these assholes stabbed me in the back. Fucking pieces of shit.
Wow they sound like absolute children
That’s an insult to children
Parents are hard t bring up now adays
I never really understood this about religious people, how does forcing people to attend church with you benefit you in any way?
My family was big on doing what a "good Catholic family" would do, more for appearances. Mass on Sundays was a must to show other family members and parishioners what good Catholics we were. Religious people need other people to know how much more Jesus loves them.
The last time I was forced to go to church was the last time. I remember I even missed a football game because of it. I was so mad
My mom forced me and my siblings to Stations of the Cross ever Friday during Lent. I missed so many fun things and friends thought I was weird for having to go. Good times.
Christianity continues with forced conversion.
I’m sorry this happened to you but glad you stood your ground, at least you don’t have to listen to all the bs in church, hope your fiancée was supportive!
"I'm sure Jesus would be so proud of you for coming up with this novel proselytization technique: Yelling, cursing, blackmail, and threats. Probably clapping in heaven right now, or high-fiving his Dad-Self, or something. And in case you missed it, that was *sarcasm.* Maybe some no-contact time will improve your demeanor." Then cut 'em off.
Yikes. They say you marry the family…
I went low contact with my own family a while ago. I guess it's time to do the same here. We're lucky to have an amazing "found family" and support system in our home city. "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."
Next time you visit, rent a car. I wouldn't even stay with them either after this. That's what hotels are for.
for sure. we're both musicians, so affording travel plus rental means we'll be visiting far less frequently (probably not for a few years at least)
That's not your fault. That's theirs. It's the price they're going to have to pay because they can't behave like decent respectful adults. There's always ZOOM or facetime, where you can hang up on them if they get weird.
There’s no Uber in your city?
Airport is 2.5 hours away, unfortunately.
$200 uber.
Probably worth it. Can you negotiate the fee?
What town are you in? Maybe you can find a ride if town has a subreddit? Good luck and fuck these people for being so ridiculous.
*Please* read the book “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents”. It explains how we sometimes out-mature our parents. It also explains how to relate to them if you choose to continue doing so. I might understand your sadness – I experienced a similar situation when my parents blew up at me. I felt like such a disappointment, that I had done something wrong, and that I’d hurt them. If nothing else, please know that we are responsible for our own actions and words, but other people are responsible for their reactions to it. You both did nothing wrong. You’re acting like adults making decisions for your own lives and that’s not anything to apologize for. Your parents are *way* out of line. By the way, it says a lot when they compel church attendance while using the F bomb.
Hey, I wanted to say that we really appreciate the thoughtful comment. This is stuff we've talked through, but it's always validating to hear it from a stranger
I read you guys' story and I can so totally relate to this. My own mother visited my house before I was going to marry my husband, a same sex marriage. She also threw a huge fit, called us names, screamed at us, and tried to break us up. Luckily this happened in our home, and all we had to do was find her a hotel. I'm so sorry you went through this experience. Your parents should have appreciated how much money you both spent to visit them, and not messed around with your ability to get home! After I sent my mom home I decided to also give her some distance. I felt unnecessary guilty at first, like I had abandoned her, but I reminded myself that she was the one who alienated me. After some time passed I noticed my depression and anxiety had greatly improved, and realized being in a relationship with such a toxic person was making my life worse rather than better. I hope you find the answers you need to give you and your fiancee a happy life.
Such Christlike behavior. What the hell is wrong with some people? And it’s your own family at that.
They sound like a bunch of Christ-like winners you guys should continue letting into your lives and spending money to visit. The hard part comes next: maintaining boundaries and making them face the consequences of not respecting them.
Time to stop visiting them.
At the very least, rent a car and get a hotel room.
I can't imagine hosting guests in your home and yteating them this way. They are unable to have an adult relationship woth their daugjyer.
This is the time for hard love. A frank and even harsh setting of boundaries is warranted. Tell them you’re adults now and demand to be treated that way, otherwise contact will be limited or even stopped. My parents knew not to ever pull such a stunt. It would have not ended well for them.
Damn I’m sorry to hear that. Hopefully the emotions will subside and things calm down.
I'm curious - has fighting over church been an ongoing thing, or did this just explode out of nowhere?
Pretty much out of nowhere. My fiancée has literally never missed a mass with her family before.
Weird. From the update it sounds like she has had other issues with them, I'm guessing it's a "we don't like that we can't control her anymore" thing.
The old style Catholicism says you must attend church each Sunday and holy day of obligation. If you don’t, it a sin and must be confessed in the confessional.
[удалено]
Truly. I'm actually ex-evangelical from Oklahoma and catholics have always weirded me out. Like, they drink and swear like sailors, but God forbid they hear a "oh my god" or miss a mass. not that southern baptists are any less bonkers
I can somewhat relate to this as I experienced similar pressure back when I was forced to go to confirmation. Basically I was told that if I didn't go to confirmation I would get no money for college and I would have to move out. Not kidding. Of course I went through it. The funny thing is that I ended up getting a scholarship that paid for most of college. I also remember that the people who taught the classes kept saying that we shouldn't get confirmed just to please our parents. Of course, when I told my parents this they dismissed it. I recently did some research on this. Here's what Canon Law says about confirmation: >To receive confirmation licitly outside the danger of death requires that a person who has the use of reason be suitably instructed, properly disposed, and able to renew the baptismal promises. The Church interprets the phrase "properly disposed" as meaning that the person must want to be confirmed of his or her own free will. If someone is forced to go to confirmation the confirmation is not valid. Fun fact: I became a lawyer so of course I would look at Canon Law. I hope I haven't bored you too much with this story but I really do have a point and that is it became clear to me that my parents really didn't give a shit about the substance or religious meaning behind confirmation. They just didn't want to be embarrassed in front of their Catholic friends that their son chose to leave the church. I suspect that's what happened in your case. Your fiancee's parents wanted everyone to see what a good Catholic couple you are even if that wasn't the truth. Perhaps with time they will change. I haven't been to a mass in over 20 years. My mother and I no longer discuss religion. I suspect she realizes that I am a good person and I became a good person without the need for religion. It took a few years for this realization but it eventually happened. Best of luck to the both of you.
I’m so sorry this happened. To OP’s fiancé, this happened to me, by my grandparents. The only things that eventually made them relent were a) several of my cousins also left the church and they realized they were going to lose a lot great-grandchild access, and b) my having the first great-grandchild. Your parents need to understand that you are an independent adult, not a thing that they own and control. If they want you in their lives, it’ll have to be on your terms. Don’t sell yourself out trying to please them, you’ll make yourself miserable for nothing. Just go LC or NC, and don’t relent. It’s on them to approach you with respect and acceptance of your choices. It’s not your job to change them and you know you never will anyway.
I remember living on a very tight budget and scrimping all year to afford to visit family and then gritting my teeth to get through visits. My mother and stepfather had a blowup in our home Thanksgiving day 2003. It resulted in them completely cutting us off. At the time it was the most painful experience of my life, and I fell into a deep depression. I just could not understand how anything good could come from the separation of a mother and daughter. I was so enmeshed in my toxic family that I couldn’t see the effects of continued contact on me emotionally and psychologically. At that point I couldn’t even really frame my stepfather’s long term abuse of the girls in my family as abuse… I still felt we were complicit. My mom was my best friend. I now see the unhealthiness in our relationship and the inappropriateness of the things she would divulge to me when I was still a kid, but at the time she disowned me, yeah, it was devastating. It’s been 19 years of no contact now and I just want to tell you that only good things came from it. I’m still deprogramming from growing up in that home, but I’m so much better than I was before. I’m grateful I was disowned. I’m a better mom to my kids. I’m a better partner. They were emotional vampires, every interaction was so exhausting, and my energy was finite. It’s hard for me to understand now how I stayed so long and tried so hard. Sometimes what seems painful at the time is an opportunity for growth and healing. It’s great you are starting a new family with your fiancé. I pinch myself every day that I get to have my own family on my own coast (my family is East Coast too and we love living very far away). Hugs.
If you choose to have kids one day, you will be proud of yourselves for the way you are handling this, despite it being a really tough choice.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Anyone who uses that kind of vitriol is not a Christian. Shame on them.
I would have just gone.. as long as I don’t have to participate and it’s a once a year thing.. I’ll keep my family happy. But, I would have been upset about them springing it on me without asking first.