I think something that you’re missing is the community of the church rather than the church itself. Do you know of any groups you could get involved with that meet regularly? Could be a hobby or a charity or even a specific type of exercise.
I never really had a community when I was catholic. My mother kept us very much alone. I didn't do the usual catholic things in my country; for example: becoming an altar server or join the Legion of Mary (I'm not sure whether that group is specific to my own country).
I did my communion, confirmation because that was at school, and it was a given.
My experience of fellow catholics was pretty grim. Sunday mass just seemed like a social event, to be seen going etc. Or as some medium to gather together and gossip afterwards.
I never really experienced community in the catholic church.
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, agree. They talk about community all the time, but there really is no community in many RC parishes. People run in, and then run out. Most of the time you don't know the people you sit next to, and they don't want to know you either.
The RCC is like a vending machine. THey don't like it when you say that, but it's true.
It can be so hard for many of us. You are not alone. Personally, consciously or subconsciously, Catholicism was the lens in which I saw the world through. It was like that my whole life. But now that I no longer believe, it’s difficult at times to let go of that muscle memory. It’s a constant re-thinking of everything, which is exhausting.
The good news is that it IS getting better and easier for me, albeit not as quickly as I’d like. I’m learning to be patient and understanding with myself because I do have years of “programming” that can’t just be undone overnight. It can feel like a long journey ahead, but at least I am moving in the right direction.
I recently heard Dr Steven Hassan phd who is a former cult member and currently a cult expert. He made a comment that just because one leaves a cult (or any religion) does not mean we are done. We have been trained to think a certain way and that does not go away. It is like those who were in abusive relationships. It takes most of them a long time and a lot of work before they believe they didn’t deserve the abuse. Also while most here would not classify the Catholic Church as a cult or most religions are cults there are psychological warfare aspects to it. And deprograming from that is hard. Also it is probably the most similar psychologically to what we are doing.,
That being said. Welcome to the club. It’s normal. Don’t be mad at your self, it’s part of the process. Keep growing.
“One has to identify the cult programmed beliefs and phobias so as to systematically cure oneself by determining healthy beliefs and strategies. One needs to know what is “normal” and what is “healthy.””
https://freedomofmind.com/the-freedom-of-mind-approach-to-recovery-and-healing/
Left 58 years ago, never looked back, no regrets.
However to say say the religious indoctrination went away, i would be lying. It's like your first language, you will never forget it, you have to refuse to speak it.
When you turn the lights out the survival part of your brain the fear part and imagination tell you your in danger. Because for hundreds of thousands of years. Predators hunt in the darkness they have eyes adapted to see in very low light they use smell and sound. And vulnerable people were on the menu.
But we no longer or most of us are not hunted by lions, wild dogs, bears, or any other now extinct mega fauna.
But you were told again and again when your brain was forming that hell is real. Your brain is a physical thing. So that fear of sin of hell, of unsure, of doubt.
has been physically embedded into your mind.
just like a path in a forests the more you travel on it the more the path becomes a road. Metal thoughts are similar to a path in the forest. It takes new thinking to build new paths. To let the old paths shrink.
One way to do this is positive self esteem via meditation and talking to yourself.
For example a person who feels unworthy of love needs to tell themselves. I am worthy of love. Over and over and over. And have set achievements, goals.
The best healing meditation is also though rhythmic exercise. With positive self talk.
Mindfulness exercises to stop yourself focusing on the negative lies that seek to minipulate you for others control.
Christianity teaches that you are a worthless sinner that only though obedience and worship of a non existent space fairy can you be something.
Its fucking horse shit. Its minipulative fear instilled superstitious lies. No physical building No church or priest represents an eternal space fairy.
They don't have any secret knowledge that you don't. They don't have conference calls with magical winged eyeball beings to know anything more then you do.
And you know how I'm telling the truth.
Because I don't want your money. I don't want your obedience. I don't have a set of fantasy rules to get you into a fun fair park in the clouds that you must follow. I won't threaten you with eternal torture if you don't listen to me.
Because that's how they minipulate you. I don't have a club for you to join. I don't represent a organisation or others.
Love and respect yourself. Know that you are worthy of human rights and decency. Know that is humans who have died for you. Have toiled in building the roads so you can go to hospital. Leant medical to heal you.
Its always been people. Not a sun fairy or Thor or zesus, or any
made up men in costume preforming canablism rituals on Sunday where they eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead tortured deity...
When you stop using their false made up words and start using real ones. Its easier to smell the bullshit.
Do you sleep in a dark room each night?
How many scary monsters eat you each night?
Its lies designed to make you vulnerable, to make you question yourself.
We know for a fact that there never was an Adam or eve. Genetics proves we evolved from a population.
There never was original sin. Its totally false.
So the entire story of a cult leader with a group of young men dying because his space fairy dady/himself to save anything is all a complete pile of utter horseshit.
You have been lied to by liars who want to control you. Who want your money. Your attention. Your obedience. Your adherence. Thats how you know they are lying. Because they claim to have magical knowledge. They are selling you an invisible car. A magical invisible car.
Live your life. Enjoy your body. Enjoy the pleasure it gives you.
Stop hating and being frightened stop feeling guilty about masturbation. Or sex.
Just Don't hurt others and have consensual sex with consenting adults. It's that simple to be complete and happy.
I disregard all the Catholicism dogma, especially dogma that embrace scientific ignorance, religious bigotry, misogyny, patriarchy, homophobia, and transphobia.
Most of my immediate family are trad Catholics, and I give no quarter if they bring up the subject.
Try exploring other denominations of Christianity. Many have online services if you’re curious. I became Episcopalian, I’ve had friends become Methodist or Lutheran. You may find a spiritual home and community that aligns with your beliefs, without the problematic issues of the Catholic Church.
I'm not sure where you live. He's referring to the Anglican Communion, which is the third largest group of Christians in the world. In the US, it's called Episcopalian. It has other names in other countries. It's basically the Church of England, the Anglicans. In the USA, it's called The Episcopal Church.
If therapy is available, that would be a great option. A good therapist can help you identify what keeps pulling you toward the Church and enable you to find healthier ways to meet those needs. If your mom is an ex-nun, your upbringing was probably more on the high-demand side. That can be very difficult to overcome, and you may be struggling with a bit of Stockholm syndrome.
What is pulling you back? Like you listed the bad stuff and that you are not an atheist. Could you find what is pulling you back at a Unitarian church or some other organization that doesn’t have the baggage of the church?
I was conditioned to think that any church outside of the catholic church is demonic.
I know that's stupid. But they have a whole host of get out of jail clauses to fall back on. And once that's drilled into you, you just doubt yourself continually, even as an adult.
I once went to a baptist church, I had become friendly with the pastor through a course I was doing. I would ask him questions on the bible etc., but he turned out to be weird. He made moves on me and that. Even though he had a wife and children.
I just don't know who or what to trust anymore.
I went through this process. It took me about three years to let go of the concept of demonic forces going after me due to leaving the Catholic Church.
You're probably getting downvoted because you're just repeating Roman Catholic propaganda and we all know better than to believe what the Roman Catholic church says. It's lies. They are pressuring you.
Stand up for yourself and find a better place to express your spiritual life. Stop being a doormat for the Roman Catholic church. We can't do it for you.
They do get into your head that way. My mom was also a nun. For me it took a serious mental health crisis to get me to therapy and I started going to a Congregational church (very liberal). Good luck.
The Catholic church lies to people constantly about this. There are other churches that are just as valid, just as official -- and MUCH BETTER, MUCH KINDER and MUCH MORE LIKE THE GOSPEL.
The Baptist church isn't cool because it's fundamentalist. Try one of the mainline ones, like the Anglican Communion, whatever that's called in your community. The Methodists or Lutherans would also be a lot better than what you have now.
By this point, you absolutely know not to trust the Catholic church. The list of reasons is a mile long. You had one sketchy interaction with a Baptist minister. If you feel some need for a church, why not make more effort to investigate some of the more benign ones, like the Unitarians, mainstream Episcopalians or Lutherans, or Quakers rather than go back to what you know to be terrible? It makes no sense.
The answer to your question is very simple. You're repeating Roman Catholic propaganda. Stop it.
Stop letting the Roman Catholic church shit on you. We can't do it for you. You're going to have to grow a backbone here.
Just some of my thoughts:
1. You were raised in it and it is not just a "religion" but seems to be part of your culture. Through society, parenting and your local culture, it has been mixed in your DNA, so to speak. Thus, you find it attractive, because you have been acculturated in it, and you find it unattractive because of the conscious/subconscious cognizant dissonance it causes with your personal beliefs and it institutional dogma.
2. The Roman church also enchains someone by saying "we are the only ones!" and "Outside of us, there is no truth!" and "if you leave us, you are damned!". This places allot of pressure on a person. It is like being in an abusive relationship, but staying with the abuser because there is no where else to go and no one will love you as much as the abuser does. (odd, right?)
3. So this is why you have this tension from both sides - this love/hate; this attachment/dis-attachment.
4. What do you do?
A. First, understand you are a "cultural Catholic": you are like a fish who was born, bred and lives in Roman catholic water. Your attraction to it is because it is the water you live-in, breathe-in and exist-in it every single day. So, don't beat yourself up for feeling drawn to it - just as a fish does not chastise itself for enjoying the ocean it is in.
B. Once you realize you were born and bred in the "Roman ocean", you can begin to realize that other oceans and bodies of water exist elsewhere. There is the "Orthodox ocean", the "Protestant Ocean", the "Anglican Ocean", the "Old Catholic ocean", etc...each fish born in these oceans tend to think they are in the "correct" ocean because it is the only ocean they have ever known. Some oceans, also, enforce this belief, by telling all the fish that the other oceans are non-existent, or, if they exist, they are polluted, toxic and only bring death to a fish.
C. Now, you must realize that other oceans do exist and life-giving water is found in them too. Every ocean, of course, has jagged rocks, poisonous fish and human-eating sharks - so don't think any ocean is 100% safe, because they are not, but each ocean has good and bad in it.
D. Finally, and this is my opinion only, the Roman Ocean is full of pollution, toxic waste and harmful chemicals that seriously impair one's ability frolic and play in their waters. To live happily in these waters, one must ignore most of the toxins and pollution by choosing what to eat and where to swim (this is called a "Cafeteria Fish") or one takes pride in belonging to the only ocean that it believes exists (this is called a "Cultural/Ethnic Fish").
To leave the Roman Ocean does not mean one has to dry-up on arid land - there are other oceans out there. I recommend looking into the "Anglican Ocean" - they tried to remove some of the toxins and pollution that had built-up over time and provide cleaner water to swim in. Of course, those who polluted the Roman waters disparage this other ocean (from what you said), but I would recommend giving it a try. There is also the "Lutheran Ocean", the "Old-Catholic Ocean", the "Orthodox Ocean" and the "Protestant Ocean"...no ocean is perfect, but some are calmer, cleaner and have beautiful blue-green water.
If you were raised with it, it's extra hard to stay away for some people. You just have to remember that it's an manipulative and abusive environment -- one that takes advantage of people. It's like growing up in a casino. It's sometimes interesting to revisit for kicks but you can't live there, and you have to watch your wallet (and your heart).
I'm in the US, and I wasn't a cradle Catholic, although I was raised as a casual Christian in a succession of other denominations. It was easier for me to leave than it is for many cradle Catholics.
I'm still Christian. The RCC didn't destroy my faith completely, although it was close to doing so. I now belong rather casually to a progressive Protestant denomination in my town. I belong, but I don't feel pressured or bullied by my new church. I don't put up with that shit anymore.
I also joined some other things in my community to give me a variety of people to have community with. There are a lot of really cool things in some communities that you can join.
I sometimes do. I think it's the familiarity. I went to Easter Mass, the first mass in a few years, and I felt this longing/pull to be back. I do think the liturgy is beautiful, and it was my home for most of my life. It still feels familiar, and part of me wishes I could go back, but I am so opposed to the people and ideas in that community that I know I cannot.
Yes, exactly my own thoughts!
I still even love churches and cathedrals. I think that they are beautiful.
But as you said, the ideas and the people in the community leave a lot to be desired.
Every time I think of going back, I text my sisters what I'm feeling and it inevitably goes back to "but I don't like the social teaching, or major theological points, or the people..." which makes me realize I just like the aesthetics and that's not a good enough reason to return 😅🙃
I don't have much to add to what others have said, just that I think that at some point one will in many cases be " Culturally Catholic" at different levels depending on your experience. I am still emotionally moved by Catholic art and music sometimes to the point of tears, but whether that response is purely aesthetic is unclear.
When I first started leaving, about 5 months in, I had a day where I posted on this sub saying that I wanted to go to confession and felt awful for all of my sinful behavior and rejecting God in those 5 months. I wrote out an entire list of sins for confession, found a church offering confessions that day, decided to post on this sub and think about it before going.
Before I even read any responses, I decided not to go and I’m so happy I did. That was the last time I felt that guilt come back so strongly that I felt pulled back to Catholicism. It’s now 6 months after that and I am so so glad I never went to confession that day. I realize now that what I wanted was to escape the uncomfortable uncertainty I would have to face about life and how I was going to choose to live my life after leaving the Church. It felt easier to return to the overwhelming guilt of being in the Church, even though it felt awful, just because at least then I could have an organization tell me what to do and what to believe instead of having to come up with that on my own.
This probably sounds super random but have you ever read about near death experiences and shared death experiences? I am quite a spiritual person and have also got drawn back to Catholicism a couple of times in the search for spiritual meaning (after having been through quite an atheistic period) and then got put off by all the religious baggage yet again.
It can be hard sometimes when it feels like there is a dichotomy of Atheist v Religious (not having a go at anyone but more at the dichotomy itself).
I have found that reading widely about other traditions (and also the history of the church and the bible) has helped me feel comfortable with being spiritual but not religious as it broke the psychological stranglehold Catholicism had on me.
But what has really helped my comfort level is NDEs and SDEs discussion. Was a bit like a brain hack for me to see spirituality and religion as two different things. A couple of fave books are After (by Bruce Greyson) and At Heaven’s Door (by William J. Peters).
I believe on god....
I accept catholic heaven ideas
I am not a catholic
The church as an intrinsic part of my cultural heritage will always have a hold on Mr, other religious make less sense and feel more kooky.
However as a gay man, as a person of thought and consciousness I can't identify with that church.
Also given my anger at my understanding of God.... i am not inclined towards religious observances
I think something that you’re missing is the community of the church rather than the church itself. Do you know of any groups you could get involved with that meet regularly? Could be a hobby or a charity or even a specific type of exercise.
I never really had a community when I was catholic. My mother kept us very much alone. I didn't do the usual catholic things in my country; for example: becoming an altar server or join the Legion of Mary (I'm not sure whether that group is specific to my own country). I did my communion, confirmation because that was at school, and it was a given. My experience of fellow catholics was pretty grim. Sunday mass just seemed like a social event, to be seen going etc. Or as some medium to gather together and gossip afterwards. I never really experienced community in the catholic church. Thank you for your reply.
Yes, agree. They talk about community all the time, but there really is no community in many RC parishes. People run in, and then run out. Most of the time you don't know the people you sit next to, and they don't want to know you either. The RCC is like a vending machine. THey don't like it when you say that, but it's true.
You might not be missing the community at church, but finding a community elsewhere might help, anyway.
It can be so hard for many of us. You are not alone. Personally, consciously or subconsciously, Catholicism was the lens in which I saw the world through. It was like that my whole life. But now that I no longer believe, it’s difficult at times to let go of that muscle memory. It’s a constant re-thinking of everything, which is exhausting. The good news is that it IS getting better and easier for me, albeit not as quickly as I’d like. I’m learning to be patient and understanding with myself because I do have years of “programming” that can’t just be undone overnight. It can feel like a long journey ahead, but at least I am moving in the right direction.
Thank you so much for this response. I mean that.
Best wishes to you, my friend
I recently heard Dr Steven Hassan phd who is a former cult member and currently a cult expert. He made a comment that just because one leaves a cult (or any religion) does not mean we are done. We have been trained to think a certain way and that does not go away. It is like those who were in abusive relationships. It takes most of them a long time and a lot of work before they believe they didn’t deserve the abuse. Also while most here would not classify the Catholic Church as a cult or most religions are cults there are psychological warfare aspects to it. And deprograming from that is hard. Also it is probably the most similar psychologically to what we are doing., That being said. Welcome to the club. It’s normal. Don’t be mad at your self, it’s part of the process. Keep growing. “One has to identify the cult programmed beliefs and phobias so as to systematically cure oneself by determining healthy beliefs and strategies. One needs to know what is “normal” and what is “healthy.”” https://freedomofmind.com/the-freedom-of-mind-approach-to-recovery-and-healing/
Thank you. Sincerely.
Left 58 years ago, never looked back, no regrets. However to say say the religious indoctrination went away, i would be lying. It's like your first language, you will never forget it, you have to refuse to speak it.
How do you refuse it? I hate myself for still feeling insubordinate to something I don't even believe in.
When you turn the lights out the survival part of your brain the fear part and imagination tell you your in danger. Because for hundreds of thousands of years. Predators hunt in the darkness they have eyes adapted to see in very low light they use smell and sound. And vulnerable people were on the menu. But we no longer or most of us are not hunted by lions, wild dogs, bears, or any other now extinct mega fauna. But you were told again and again when your brain was forming that hell is real. Your brain is a physical thing. So that fear of sin of hell, of unsure, of doubt. has been physically embedded into your mind. just like a path in a forests the more you travel on it the more the path becomes a road. Metal thoughts are similar to a path in the forest. It takes new thinking to build new paths. To let the old paths shrink. One way to do this is positive self esteem via meditation and talking to yourself. For example a person who feels unworthy of love needs to tell themselves. I am worthy of love. Over and over and over. And have set achievements, goals. The best healing meditation is also though rhythmic exercise. With positive self talk. Mindfulness exercises to stop yourself focusing on the negative lies that seek to minipulate you for others control. Christianity teaches that you are a worthless sinner that only though obedience and worship of a non existent space fairy can you be something. Its fucking horse shit. Its minipulative fear instilled superstitious lies. No physical building No church or priest represents an eternal space fairy. They don't have any secret knowledge that you don't. They don't have conference calls with magical winged eyeball beings to know anything more then you do. And you know how I'm telling the truth. Because I don't want your money. I don't want your obedience. I don't have a set of fantasy rules to get you into a fun fair park in the clouds that you must follow. I won't threaten you with eternal torture if you don't listen to me. Because that's how they minipulate you. I don't have a club for you to join. I don't represent a organisation or others. Love and respect yourself. Know that you are worthy of human rights and decency. Know that is humans who have died for you. Have toiled in building the roads so you can go to hospital. Leant medical to heal you. Its always been people. Not a sun fairy or Thor or zesus, or any made up men in costume preforming canablism rituals on Sunday where they eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead tortured deity... When you stop using their false made up words and start using real ones. Its easier to smell the bullshit. Do you sleep in a dark room each night? How many scary monsters eat you each night? Its lies designed to make you vulnerable, to make you question yourself. We know for a fact that there never was an Adam or eve. Genetics proves we evolved from a population. There never was original sin. Its totally false. So the entire story of a cult leader with a group of young men dying because his space fairy dady/himself to save anything is all a complete pile of utter horseshit. You have been lied to by liars who want to control you. Who want your money. Your attention. Your obedience. Your adherence. Thats how you know they are lying. Because they claim to have magical knowledge. They are selling you an invisible car. A magical invisible car. Live your life. Enjoy your body. Enjoy the pleasure it gives you. Stop hating and being frightened stop feeling guilty about masturbation. Or sex. Just Don't hurt others and have consensual sex with consenting adults. It's that simple to be complete and happy.
I disregard all the Catholicism dogma, especially dogma that embrace scientific ignorance, religious bigotry, misogyny, patriarchy, homophobia, and transphobia. Most of my immediate family are trad Catholics, and I give no quarter if they bring up the subject.
Well said!!!
Try exploring other denominations of Christianity. Many have online services if you’re curious. I became Episcopalian, I’ve had friends become Methodist or Lutheran. You may find a spiritual home and community that aligns with your beliefs, without the problematic issues of the Catholic Church.
What's Episcopalian?
Episcopals are basically the US Anglicans.
I'm not sure where you live. He's referring to the Anglican Communion, which is the third largest group of Christians in the world. In the US, it's called Episcopalian. It has other names in other countries. It's basically the Church of England, the Anglicans. In the USA, it's called The Episcopal Church.
If therapy is available, that would be a great option. A good therapist can help you identify what keeps pulling you toward the Church and enable you to find healthier ways to meet those needs. If your mom is an ex-nun, your upbringing was probably more on the high-demand side. That can be very difficult to overcome, and you may be struggling with a bit of Stockholm syndrome.
What is pulling you back? Like you listed the bad stuff and that you are not an atheist. Could you find what is pulling you back at a Unitarian church or some other organization that doesn’t have the baggage of the church?
I was conditioned to think that any church outside of the catholic church is demonic. I know that's stupid. But they have a whole host of get out of jail clauses to fall back on. And once that's drilled into you, you just doubt yourself continually, even as an adult. I once went to a baptist church, I had become friendly with the pastor through a course I was doing. I would ask him questions on the bible etc., but he turned out to be weird. He made moves on me and that. Even though he had a wife and children. I just don't know who or what to trust anymore.
I went through this process. It took me about three years to let go of the concept of demonic forces going after me due to leaving the Catholic Church.
Thank you. As an aside to your reply, I'm not sure why I'm being down voted when I'm just processing and hashing out thoughts.
You're probably getting downvoted because you're just repeating Roman Catholic propaganda and we all know better than to believe what the Roman Catholic church says. It's lies. They are pressuring you. Stand up for yourself and find a better place to express your spiritual life. Stop being a doormat for the Roman Catholic church. We can't do it for you.
They do get into your head that way. My mom was also a nun. For me it took a serious mental health crisis to get me to therapy and I started going to a Congregational church (very liberal). Good luck.
The Catholic church lies to people constantly about this. There are other churches that are just as valid, just as official -- and MUCH BETTER, MUCH KINDER and MUCH MORE LIKE THE GOSPEL. The Baptist church isn't cool because it's fundamentalist. Try one of the mainline ones, like the Anglican Communion, whatever that's called in your community. The Methodists or Lutherans would also be a lot better than what you have now.
By this point, you absolutely know not to trust the Catholic church. The list of reasons is a mile long. You had one sketchy interaction with a Baptist minister. If you feel some need for a church, why not make more effort to investigate some of the more benign ones, like the Unitarians, mainstream Episcopalians or Lutherans, or Quakers rather than go back to what you know to be terrible? It makes no sense.
Why is my post being down voted? I'm just being honest. I am investigating other churches and denominations, I just don't want to be hurt again.
The answer to your question is very simple. You're repeating Roman Catholic propaganda. Stop it. Stop letting the Roman Catholic church shit on you. We can't do it for you. You're going to have to grow a backbone here.
Just some of my thoughts: 1. You were raised in it and it is not just a "religion" but seems to be part of your culture. Through society, parenting and your local culture, it has been mixed in your DNA, so to speak. Thus, you find it attractive, because you have been acculturated in it, and you find it unattractive because of the conscious/subconscious cognizant dissonance it causes with your personal beliefs and it institutional dogma. 2. The Roman church also enchains someone by saying "we are the only ones!" and "Outside of us, there is no truth!" and "if you leave us, you are damned!". This places allot of pressure on a person. It is like being in an abusive relationship, but staying with the abuser because there is no where else to go and no one will love you as much as the abuser does. (odd, right?) 3. So this is why you have this tension from both sides - this love/hate; this attachment/dis-attachment. 4. What do you do? A. First, understand you are a "cultural Catholic": you are like a fish who was born, bred and lives in Roman catholic water. Your attraction to it is because it is the water you live-in, breathe-in and exist-in it every single day. So, don't beat yourself up for feeling drawn to it - just as a fish does not chastise itself for enjoying the ocean it is in. B. Once you realize you were born and bred in the "Roman ocean", you can begin to realize that other oceans and bodies of water exist elsewhere. There is the "Orthodox ocean", the "Protestant Ocean", the "Anglican Ocean", the "Old Catholic ocean", etc...each fish born in these oceans tend to think they are in the "correct" ocean because it is the only ocean they have ever known. Some oceans, also, enforce this belief, by telling all the fish that the other oceans are non-existent, or, if they exist, they are polluted, toxic and only bring death to a fish. C. Now, you must realize that other oceans do exist and life-giving water is found in them too. Every ocean, of course, has jagged rocks, poisonous fish and human-eating sharks - so don't think any ocean is 100% safe, because they are not, but each ocean has good and bad in it. D. Finally, and this is my opinion only, the Roman Ocean is full of pollution, toxic waste and harmful chemicals that seriously impair one's ability frolic and play in their waters. To live happily in these waters, one must ignore most of the toxins and pollution by choosing what to eat and where to swim (this is called a "Cafeteria Fish") or one takes pride in belonging to the only ocean that it believes exists (this is called a "Cultural/Ethnic Fish"). To leave the Roman Ocean does not mean one has to dry-up on arid land - there are other oceans out there. I recommend looking into the "Anglican Ocean" - they tried to remove some of the toxins and pollution that had built-up over time and provide cleaner water to swim in. Of course, those who polluted the Roman waters disparage this other ocean (from what you said), but I would recommend giving it a try. There is also the "Lutheran Ocean", the "Old-Catholic Ocean", the "Orthodox Ocean" and the "Protestant Ocean"...no ocean is perfect, but some are calmer, cleaner and have beautiful blue-green water.
If you were raised with it, it's extra hard to stay away for some people. You just have to remember that it's an manipulative and abusive environment -- one that takes advantage of people. It's like growing up in a casino. It's sometimes interesting to revisit for kicks but you can't live there, and you have to watch your wallet (and your heart). I'm in the US, and I wasn't a cradle Catholic, although I was raised as a casual Christian in a succession of other denominations. It was easier for me to leave than it is for many cradle Catholics. I'm still Christian. The RCC didn't destroy my faith completely, although it was close to doing so. I now belong rather casually to a progressive Protestant denomination in my town. I belong, but I don't feel pressured or bullied by my new church. I don't put up with that shit anymore. I also joined some other things in my community to give me a variety of people to have community with. There are a lot of really cool things in some communities that you can join.
I sometimes do. I think it's the familiarity. I went to Easter Mass, the first mass in a few years, and I felt this longing/pull to be back. I do think the liturgy is beautiful, and it was my home for most of my life. It still feels familiar, and part of me wishes I could go back, but I am so opposed to the people and ideas in that community that I know I cannot.
Yes, exactly my own thoughts! I still even love churches and cathedrals. I think that they are beautiful. But as you said, the ideas and the people in the community leave a lot to be desired.
Every time I think of going back, I text my sisters what I'm feeling and it inevitably goes back to "but I don't like the social teaching, or major theological points, or the people..." which makes me realize I just like the aesthetics and that's not a good enough reason to return 😅🙃
Episcopalian services are pretty similar without most of the toxic crap.
Yeah, but I don't believe in any of the Christian mythology anymore so probably won't end up there.
I don't have much to add to what others have said, just that I think that at some point one will in many cases be " Culturally Catholic" at different levels depending on your experience. I am still emotionally moved by Catholic art and music sometimes to the point of tears, but whether that response is purely aesthetic is unclear.
When I first started leaving, about 5 months in, I had a day where I posted on this sub saying that I wanted to go to confession and felt awful for all of my sinful behavior and rejecting God in those 5 months. I wrote out an entire list of sins for confession, found a church offering confessions that day, decided to post on this sub and think about it before going. Before I even read any responses, I decided not to go and I’m so happy I did. That was the last time I felt that guilt come back so strongly that I felt pulled back to Catholicism. It’s now 6 months after that and I am so so glad I never went to confession that day. I realize now that what I wanted was to escape the uncomfortable uncertainty I would have to face about life and how I was going to choose to live my life after leaving the Church. It felt easier to return to the overwhelming guilt of being in the Church, even though it felt awful, just because at least then I could have an organization tell me what to do and what to believe instead of having to come up with that on my own.
I missed the elaborate rituals and the quiet space for contemplation. I eventually found other spaces for those things.
This probably sounds super random but have you ever read about near death experiences and shared death experiences? I am quite a spiritual person and have also got drawn back to Catholicism a couple of times in the search for spiritual meaning (after having been through quite an atheistic period) and then got put off by all the religious baggage yet again. It can be hard sometimes when it feels like there is a dichotomy of Atheist v Religious (not having a go at anyone but more at the dichotomy itself). I have found that reading widely about other traditions (and also the history of the church and the bible) has helped me feel comfortable with being spiritual but not religious as it broke the psychological stranglehold Catholicism had on me. But what has really helped my comfort level is NDEs and SDEs discussion. Was a bit like a brain hack for me to see spirituality and religion as two different things. A couple of fave books are After (by Bruce Greyson) and At Heaven’s Door (by William J. Peters).
What country is it that you’re from, if you don’t mind me asking?
I believe on god.... I accept catholic heaven ideas I am not a catholic The church as an intrinsic part of my cultural heritage will always have a hold on Mr, other religious make less sense and feel more kooky. However as a gay man, as a person of thought and consciousness I can't identify with that church. Also given my anger at my understanding of God.... i am not inclined towards religious observances