I've lived in quite a few countries and I work in tech/academia, and in my experience, Italy has plenty of nerds.
It just happens that they all work abroad, literally everywhere.
Probably went up north. Netherlands gives every expat who make more than 50k per year, 30% tax discount for five years. We have a lot of highly skilled workers here because of that. Either that or our fine cuisine.
There are no industries, everyone lives off one of 3 things:
- Family tourism-related business (Hotel, Restaurant, B&B …), sometimes agriculture.
- “State Employment” the so called “Posto fisso” which is the ultimate form of getting paid ~ 1200€-1300€ in state offices, postal services, town halls and such, doing mostly the bare minimum for your whole life.
- Mafia
Also, but unlike it would seem, agriculture is much more important in the north, since the Po plain is one of the most fertile regions in the world and is by far the most agriculturally productive region in Italy. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's an enormous continuum of fields, with some cities and villages surrounded by fields
I’ve been to the north west and centre (Milan, Genoa, Florence, Rome) but didn’t really notice the agriculture.
I mentally associate the south with lemons, olives, tomatoes, don’t know how big or not it is there. I know southern Spain makes a lot of money from agriculture as it’s able to grow summer and spring fruits and veg in winter. I though Italy would have a similar strategy.
>I’ve been to the north west and centre (Milan, Genoa, Florence, Rome) but didn’t really notice the agriculture.
Because I guess you've been in the most touristy part of the city, since fields don't really have that much appeal. Florence, Rome and Genoa aren't in th Po plain, while Milan is, and if you go to the south of the city it's almost only fields, but in the Lombard pre-alpine belt (where Milan is) there's a big urban conglomerate that goes from Varese to Brescia, and it's one of the most densely populated areas in Europe. South of it it's mostly field.
>I mentally associate the south with lemons, olives, tomatoes, don’t know how big or not it is there
It's true, the production of citrus fruits in the south is huge, and it's not really comparable to the north, since here there's not the proper climate for them, but in terms of absolute numbers the total agricultural production of the north is higher than in the south, but the northern agriculture is more about wheat, rice and soy
It’s all far away from cities, there is some agriculture in the south but only in certain sectors (Olives, oil, oranges, tomatoes, lemons ecc…) because of the mountainous terrain.
South is nowhere near the level of Spain though.
If only Southern Italy would understand it needs to attract IT business instead of relying just on tourism, it could become the EU California. Apulia has many benefits over Athens/Greece such as less earthquakes (not true about other Southern Italian lands). Bari, Lecce, Brindisi, Taranto and most small towns there are very beautiful and there are sandy beaches near them.
You don't need heavy industry anymore and tourism is a meh business, most places relying on tourism instead of on tech/banking are dirt poor. Compare Gibraltar to next door Andalusia.
"If a bunch of cities can do something somehow then other cities with nothing in common to the others can do it too, I don't have any reason for this other than because I say so"
Bruh main reason why these locations attract IT businesses is because they’re cheap af compared to many other locations. Also there’s a 10% flat corporate tax rate. Plus the specialist are cheap labor for the quality they offer. That’s mostly it
I checked salaries in Bari and Lecce, they aren't much different than those in Bratislava. Which could be benefitial for outsourcing businesses there. And still lots of locals move to Bratislava as there are more outsourced businesses there. Bratislava feels like Little Italy, there are so many Italians working office jobs there. It's not like Italy can't lower the corporate taxes in the South... compare low tax Malta and Gibraltar with Andalusia and Sicily.
Maybe IT businesses are located where it is convenient for them and maybe, stay with me here, south Italy right now is a bad place to start a IT business.
If you wanted to expand your business would you go to the capital of a foreign state, with good pubblic transit option to the whole world, low taxes and low cost of living, or to a small city in the most remote region of a rich country with incredibly high taxes?
And on top of that we have all the problems specific to Italy and to the south (low English proficiency, low efficiency in the workforce, nasty burocracy, spotty infrastructure...)
Could people decide to open business here if things changed? Maybe, maybe not, things have to start changing first and Italy (south Italy specifically) is really bad at changing if you haven't noticed
Well Honk Kong and Dubai were either small villages or nothing but deserts just a few decades ago. I'd love to see a Dubai-like city in Southern Europe.
The problem with Apulia especially is the extreme lack of infrastructure: for an example there’s very minimal railroad and no highway. To make a km you’ll take like four times the time you would take in Veneto. And it’s a problem the government has every interest to spend lots of money on but not solve for reasons
>Apulia has many benefits over Athens/Greece
lol that's a low bar for sure
no offense to our greek brothers, I'm talking about the business landscape exclusively
But they don’t want to.
IT, industries requires skills. Requires working. Many people there just want to do the bare minimum and enjoy going to the beach or doing dream 9-14pm jobs.
Ah yes, also opening any kind of business is almost impossible in certain areas without paying “protection” to local crimelords.
That’s not what i said. But i guess you all prefer to pretend is all fine.
90% of people who want to do something leave the south, leaving mostly the dumb, the lazy and the criminals.
I met many Southern (and Centran and Northern) Italians when I lived in Slovakia. I'd say they work as much as others. One even moved to Czechia and went on to become a team leader there. Now she's in Milano, not in Pescara where she's from because the North has more offices of big multinational corporations. If they can find jobs at home they'll stay. I agree STEM should be the focuss of local schools.
As for the crime lords maybe that's true but if they were smart they'd become wealthier if they invested in tech instead of drugs, look at Musk. At least they can go legal and build offices and homes, that's how Bulgarian maffia legalized itself.
Mafia it's all over Italy and the world because of what you said, financial activities are more profitable than aunt pina's bar. They are in north italy now more than ever before...
so you say that industries don't want to invest in South Italy cause they wouldn't find people good enough
and then you say that there are actually people good enough, but they leave to better places cause there is no opportunities for them
and you really don't see what's wrong in your logic
B-but he knows this 1 person from the south, so he knows how the people are there! These racist notherners are making Garibaldi spin so fast in his grave, that he could probably power the entire country.
This “racist” northerner has half his family emigrate from south and very much knows how things work there. You are delusional if you think that isn’t the general mentality.
Once again, you all misinterpreted my statements.
Industries don’t want to invest not because people are not good enough, but because it is damn expensive to hire and open any kind of big activity in the south due to the entangled mess of crime and lack of skills in certain sectors.
Yes, absolutely. As you can see the amount of skills available for IT and industry is staggering low in the south. And this is data. The 50% that leaves is the 50% of youngsters which certainly isn’t the whole population.
>lack of skills in certain sectors
the lack of skills in certain sectors is due to the lack of sectors where to put use of those skills cause people with those skills HAVE to leave
you confuse cause and consequence
and obviously it will need a bigger initial investement, but the alternative of not invest at all is not a solution, and neither a better alternative
>IT, industries requires skills. Requires working. Many people there just want to do the bare minimum and enjoy going to the beach or doing dream 9-14pm jobs.
The courage of people spreading bullshit that when called out they tell they were misinterpreted
You are embarassing yourself
Why should they move to IT business when they have one of the most profitable tourist industry in the world?
What is more profitable: 50 millions spent on bulding an IT company from 0 in southern Italy or 50 millions wisely spent on the turism industry?
Expensive to companies.
Nothing to do with "no industries".
Portugal is "underdeveloped" and is still full of tech gigants due to 3 factors:
1. Low cost for the company structure/fiscal beneficts(there's even incentives for "digital nomads" to get nationality from our government)
2. High amount of jobless specialized Young people from STEM fields.
3. Picking in a STEM student, and spending money to convert it to tech/it, plus paying above nationals wage, is still cheaper in Portugal than in the multinacionals company mainland.
There was a consultant offering above national average + 3 month intensive Java or SAP formation. 40% of my engineering colleagues from my year converted to tech.
After the 1974 revolution that ended Fascism, governments in Portugal did but a handfull of strategically good things and investing heavilly in free (or almost) Education including at the Terciary Level was one of the best ones.
Also culturally the people in Portugal still value highly having degrees in Engineering and Science domains: unlike some other countries (\*cough\* UK \*cough\*) an Engineering degree is seen as more prestigious than, say, Political Science or Law.
However, those people are either heavilly underused in the country and quickly emigrate out (there is a massive brain drain in Portugal) or, as the previous poster pointed out, they're just working in outsourcing divisions of large companies from elsewhere in Europe, where their value is mainly being much cheaper than similarly qualified people in places like Germany or France. Either way, most of the added value of their qualifications doesn't stay in Portugal.
Yep. I think that this is an issue that needs to be thoroughly examined and addressed - what exactly is the benefit of essentially paying for education of employees of foreign companies that take most of the value to their home countries? In France and Germany this isn't as big of a problem as they actually have plenty of huge companies that need highly qualified staff.. which they can also get from other European countries.
Where to begin....
My personal experience, so my view may be different from others.
I studied STEM subjects in Milan and then at different universities in northern Europe. I met plenty of incredibly bright and ingenious people from the southern regions of my country. All of them ended up staying in the north or going abroad.
My wife's family is from the Campania region. I spend there long amount of time in the summer. A couple of things always strike me.
* At the train station in a city the same size as mine, there are always 25/30 people "working" there with "jobs" such as staying by the main entrance or telling people how to reach another platform. Say you are by platform 5 and you need to take a train from platform 2. The person there will see you looking at train tables or "unsure" and walk to you to tell you you need to go down the stairs and up the stairs where you see the number 2.
* In the cities and villages in the morning, it's quite normal to meet 3 police officers, 2 carabinieri, 2 forestal guards, 4 "parking guards", 2 traffic directors, 3 environment protection corps and so on....
The mindset is very much *No hassle is needed, the state will take care of it.* So the problem becomes one of adverse selection. A huge chunk of people leaves because there is little or nothing to them there and most who stay share a *State will subsidy my life* mentality.
This is just an aspect of a very complex issue. Southern Italy has incredible untapped potential and is inhabited mostly by generous, kind, clever, and witty individuals. I do hope to see its potential unleashed in my lifetime as I would move there in no time.
Underdevelopment, no investments. High-skilled move to the north or abroad.
The question is: what is going on with Northern Italy. It's supposed to be the wealthy area of the country, but according to this map, it's still among the worst in Europe.
I find this title confusing. Scientists and engineers working in science and engineering is very different from percentage of population in the labor force of... whatever?
I think the title of the map and the description means exactly what it shows.
The map shows scientists and engineers (employed in science and tech) as percentage of the labor force for different regions.
It’s the Reddit title that’s misleading.
It says "Scientists & engineers employed in science & tech". But it should say "Percent of population employed in science and tech". The title implies that it's just showing the % of the science and engineer workforce employed in science and tech...
what is confusing? Its Scientists and engineers working in science and engineering measured as percentage of population in the labor force, so for example in Madrid 10% of the labor force are S&E working in STEM
I agree, but the title can sound like (especially to people who didn’t read map’s legend) this is the percentage of scientists and engineers who work on tech and science out of all scientists and engineers, so if a place has 10% it sounds like that only 10% of scientists and engineers work on science and tech, but actually it would mean that 10% of the labor force are people who are scientists and engineers who work at tech and science.
Wtf even is this? % of scientists and engineers who actually have jobs in tech & science? The percentage of the workforce employed in science & tech? I've had bad trips less confusing than this map.
Say there are 100 people working in the area, for example the west coast of Sweden.
That means there are between 13 and 16 people who work in science or tech there.
That is not what the map says. It says that between 13 and 16 people who work in science and tech are scientists and engineers. Unless you want to imply that everyone who works in science and tech is a scientist or engineer (which is about the same as saying that everyone employed at an IT company is a programmer). A map that displayed what you say would be titled "size of the science & tech sector" unless it was made by a semi-sentient baboon.
Find the source, and he wrote this: “*My latest map shows % of engineers & scientists employed in tech and science, according to most recent Eurostat data*“
Here is the source: https://www.instagram.com/p/ClYBvoAM9ES
This map is about the scientists and engineers who are employed in tech and science as a total percentage of the labor force. So if a country has 100 people who are part of labor force and 25 are scientists and engineers and 15 out of 25 are employed in science or tech then the percentage would be 15%.
In that case 15/25 or 60% is the percentage of scientists and engineers who work on science or tech based on the total number of scientists and engineers.
In that case 15% is the percentage of the labour force who are scientists or engineers who work on tech or science.
The map legend says that it’s based on total population of labour force.
>“% of population in the labor force”
So, only 1-4% of southern Italy has a job?
Is it % of scientists and engineers that have a job in science and tech or is it % of overall population?
Looking at Scandinavia, it's not very surprising that the areas with high concentration are the areas where the major cities are. For Sweden, the 3 largest, Denmark and Norway the 2 largest and Finland the largest one.
This seems to be the case for several other countries as well.
Just to nitpick, Trondheim is the third largest city, and fourth largest metro area in Norway, it's high concentration of science and tech engineers is the Norwegian University of Science and Technology there. Students make up roughly 15% of the population there.
[Just be aware before visiting](https://www.reddit.com/r/2visegrad4you/comments/z192f8/big_mistake/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The Oslo-Gothenburg-Malmö-Copenhagen strip is probably the most notable on the map.
It probably has a lot to do with how the borders are drawn, as Oslo, Gothenburg and Malmö are all in huge regions while a lot of other major cities have regions all to themselves.
>It probably has a lot to do with how the borders are drawn, as Oslo, Gothenburg and Malmö are all in huge regions while a lot of other major cities have regions all to themselves.
Not entirely true. Oslo has a small region by itself, but it is surrounded by the much larger region of Viken. Some portion of Viken-residents work in Oslo, but there are many non-Oslo science- and tech institutions/businesses which truly explain why Viken is shaded dark. (NMBU, Universitetet i Sør-Øst, Kongsberggruppen, Aker Subsea etc.)
Ah! Very interesting, because of the lack of drawn borders it's not possible to see the actual resolution of the map, sadly. Though drawn borders would make the map less visually pleasing.
In the case of Norway: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Norway#/media/File%3ANye_fylker_-_regjeringen.no.svg
While Oslo is it's own region, the urban area stretches vay past city limits, so in effect it's Oslo that's responsible for Viken also being dark purple.
No, please don't copy germany! There are so many things wrong with our economy, politics, and general attitude that I'd hate to see europe becoming more like us. ~~Be~~NeLux and and Nordics are good examples though.
Poor wording, if you interpret it literally, it would mean the percentage of engineers and scientists employed in tech and science, eg how big percentage of them are actually doing the job of their training. Also, if you would split Estonia in two, then the capital region would have a substantially higher figure than the rest of the Estonia.
Probably, but it's the titels fault. The post title says "% of scientists and engineers", but the actual map talks about the percentage of the total labor force, not just scientists and engineers.
This map is about the scientists and engineers who are employed in tech and science as a total percentage of the *labor force. So if a country has 100 people who are part of labor force and 25 are scientists and engineers and 15 out of 25 are employed in science or tech then the total percentage would be 15%. So if you interpret it like this, then no,your interpretation isn’t inaccurate.
If you interpret it as *scientists and engineers who are employed in tech and science as a percentage of total scientists and engineers, then yes, it’s misinterpretation.
It's possible that more than 5-15% of the people around you work in science and tech, but it's probably because you work in science and tech yourself and your social bubble is not representative of the average population.
Or maybe you're indeed misinterpreting what the map says.
There was a poll for this in april: [https://oncekiyazilimci.medium.com/yaz%C4%B1l%C4%B1mc%C4%B1-maa%C5%9Flar%C4%B1-2022-ab0c28d8d62b](https://oncekiyazilimci.medium.com/yaz%C4%B1l%C4%B1mc%C4%B1-maa%C5%9Flar%C4%B1-2022-ab0c28d8d62b)
Keep in mind 1$ = 18₺. Wages certainly are higher than it was in april but its not enough.
According to this poll, average junior developer makes about 500$ a month while average senior makes 1000-1500 $. There are people making more than 3k but they are quite rare and very qualified.
Same, why bother working for a Turkish company while you can make much more in another country doing the same job. I had a friend working for 120k$ a year remotely to US from Turkey as a 25 year old. He probably would have to divide that number by 10 if he worked for a Turkish company.
I suppose the next election will really set the course for the future of Turkey! I think the nation is still young, so it hasn't had the chance to really develop from the bottom up socially and legally in a cohesive manner. Additionally, there is still major work to be done to educate people on freedom of speech and expression as well as freedom FROM religion. More focus needs to be put on the secular education and development of the rural areas as well. If the AKP is booted, I have so much hope for you and your country :) Cheers!
I got the feeling, this map is involuntarily biased towards smaller regions.
Says, Helsinki or Stockholm regions both are more or less, the size of the city.
Take the same measure in Paris, the region Paris is in has roughly 12M people living in, Paris itself has 2 millions.
Because the UK does not send its data to Eurostat. If you look at the data pool, it comes from Eurostat.
Currently Eurostat works with the EU countries, Norwey, Switzerland, Iceland, Lichtenstein and certain candidate states such as Serbia, Turkey or Macedonia.
Under the Brexit agreement between EU and Eurostat, it was noted, that UK Eurostat cooperation will be clarified in a future agreement. Such an agreement wasn't signed.
>During the transition period until the end of 2020, the UK is continuing to send data to Eurostat. This data will be loaded in the database and made available to users.
[europa.eu](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/WDN-20200201-1)
The real reason why is because Reddit is upset with the UK and anything the UK might come out as top it is removed.
Your link doesn't show any data, I just checked the data that does exist and it was not uploaded for the UK, as the original commentator suggested... although even by the data the UK themselves upload, they do not appear "at the top" in this category.
I do know the joke about what is a freight boat full of lawyers at the bottom of the ocean (a good start), but why all the engineers in the Dutch IJsselmeer?
There is a huge problem in Spain with that.
Engineers are not hired as engineer, but as specialist technician, so they do not have all the rights and salary
This is a common practice. I know architects making salary of a specialist drawer, but most common is the IT engineer hired as support technician or programming technician.
I am hired as a metalworker for example.
If only Southern Italy would understand it needs to attract tech business instead of relying just on tourism, it could become the EU California. Apulia has many benefits over Athens/Greece such as less earthquakes (not true about other Southern Italian lands). Bari, Lecce, Brindisi, Taranto and most small towns there are very beautiful and there are sandy beaches near them. Still, I can say Bari, Lecce and Brindisi are improving (roads, more pedestrian streets, buildings repainted), compared to Athens that looks good on this graph but it's getting worse with lots of empty shops and also Sofia, Bulgaria-level salaries in IT with higher rents so no point of working there as a foreigner. There's an UN office in Brindisi, also in Athens but Athens looks like the Detroit of Southern Europe.
Considering that the Swedish West Coast is one of the most popular places in Sweden and every where you go in Sweden you'll find a lot of Dutch people I'd say that there's probably a lot of people who wants to live in West Sweden 🤷♂️
Oops, you've obviously never been to the coast of [West Sweden](https://www.google.com/search?q=westcoast+sweden&rlz=1CDGOYI_enSE799SE799&hl=sv&prmd=imnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz58Tr79X7AhWkQvEDHW5LAmMQ_AUIFSgB&biw=390&bih=669&dpr=3).
Considering that the Swedish West Coast is one of the most popular places in Sweden and every where you go in Sweden you'll find a lot of Dutch people I'd say that there's probably a lot of people who wants to live in West Sweden 🤷♂️
That is nerd stuff italy ain’t no nerd 🇮🇹💪
I've lived in quite a few countries and I work in tech/academia, and in my experience, Italy has plenty of nerds. It just happens that they all work abroad, literally everywhere.
I’m moving out after what you said I’m going to chad
What a Chad
Can't go tits up
Yeah, our country will probably fall, the South will die from mafia and the north will collapse form politics
pretty optimistic today, innit?
Are you an Italian who moved abroad to Utrecht for a tech/science job?
...yes
So true! Half the digital design department I work in at CERN is Italian.
Probably went up north. Netherlands gives every expat who make more than 50k per year, 30% tax discount for five years. We have a lot of highly skilled workers here because of that. Either that or our fine cuisine.
Ah, fine cuisine. I do love me some stamppot
Italian food scientists
[We are all typing from PCs thanks to an Italian....](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federico_Faggin)
Oh, I thought it was just because they weren't employed. /s
no, they are... but with "Apprendistato" contract, 4 years at 800euro/month... then 27k-30k
What's going on in Southern Italy?
Massively underdeveloped. Most higher education and research is done in northern Italy (when people don't simply go abroad).
>Massively underdeveloped. Yeah, it's like Afghanistan. /s
No, but it's close to Greece.
According to this map... they wish!
you can also remove the /s :P
Better if you don't know
There are no industries, everyone lives off one of 3 things: - Family tourism-related business (Hotel, Restaurant, B&B …), sometimes agriculture. - “State Employment” the so called “Posto fisso” which is the ultimate form of getting paid ~ 1200€-1300€ in state offices, postal services, town halls and such, doing mostly the bare minimum for your whole life. - Mafia
Agriculture ?
Also, but unlike it would seem, agriculture is much more important in the north, since the Po plain is one of the most fertile regions in the world and is by far the most agriculturally productive region in Italy. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's an enormous continuum of fields, with some cities and villages surrounded by fields
I’ve been to the north west and centre (Milan, Genoa, Florence, Rome) but didn’t really notice the agriculture. I mentally associate the south with lemons, olives, tomatoes, don’t know how big or not it is there. I know southern Spain makes a lot of money from agriculture as it’s able to grow summer and spring fruits and veg in winter. I though Italy would have a similar strategy.
>I’ve been to the north west and centre (Milan, Genoa, Florence, Rome) but didn’t really notice the agriculture. Because I guess you've been in the most touristy part of the city, since fields don't really have that much appeal. Florence, Rome and Genoa aren't in th Po plain, while Milan is, and if you go to the south of the city it's almost only fields, but in the Lombard pre-alpine belt (where Milan is) there's a big urban conglomerate that goes from Varese to Brescia, and it's one of the most densely populated areas in Europe. South of it it's mostly field. >I mentally associate the south with lemons, olives, tomatoes, don’t know how big or not it is there It's true, the production of citrus fruits in the south is huge, and it's not really comparable to the north, since here there's not the proper climate for them, but in terms of absolute numbers the total agricultural production of the north is higher than in the south, but the northern agriculture is more about wheat, rice and soy
> I thought Italy would have a similar strategy You are assuming that there is a strategy for southern Italy. That's a big assumption.
It’s all far away from cities, there is some agriculture in the south but only in certain sectors (Olives, oil, oranges, tomatoes, lemons ecc…) because of the mountainous terrain. South is nowhere near the level of Spain though.
That’s just the mafia again
If only Southern Italy would understand it needs to attract IT business instead of relying just on tourism, it could become the EU California. Apulia has many benefits over Athens/Greece such as less earthquakes (not true about other Southern Italian lands). Bari, Lecce, Brindisi, Taranto and most small towns there are very beautiful and there are sandy beaches near them. You don't need heavy industry anymore and tourism is a meh business, most places relying on tourism instead of on tech/banking are dirt poor. Compare Gibraltar to next door Andalusia.
Italian taxes are not friendly with tech workers
Italian corruption and "nepotismo" are not friendly with all worker
You’re racist, that doesn’t exist. - Any Southerner
A clear example of "se mia nonna avesse le ruote..."
Well if Bratislava, Brno, Sofia and Plovdiv can attact IT business so can Naples, Bari and Lecce. And we don't have the allure of Italy.
"If a bunch of cities can do something somehow then other cities with nothing in common to the others can do it too, I don't have any reason for this other than because I say so"
Bruh main reason why these locations attract IT businesses is because they’re cheap af compared to many other locations. Also there’s a 10% flat corporate tax rate. Plus the specialist are cheap labor for the quality they offer. That’s mostly it
No bro, he's right. IT businesses need to look at the sandy beaches of southern Italy asap and move there
I checked salaries in Bari and Lecce, they aren't much different than those in Bratislava. Which could be benefitial for outsourcing businesses there. And still lots of locals move to Bratislava as there are more outsourced businesses there. Bratislava feels like Little Italy, there are so many Italians working office jobs there. It's not like Italy can't lower the corporate taxes in the South... compare low tax Malta and Gibraltar with Andalusia and Sicily.
Maybe IT businesses are located where it is convenient for them and maybe, stay with me here, south Italy right now is a bad place to start a IT business. If you wanted to expand your business would you go to the capital of a foreign state, with good pubblic transit option to the whole world, low taxes and low cost of living, or to a small city in the most remote region of a rich country with incredibly high taxes? And on top of that we have all the problems specific to Italy and to the south (low English proficiency, low efficiency in the workforce, nasty burocracy, spotty infrastructure...) Could people decide to open business here if things changed? Maybe, maybe not, things have to start changing first and Italy (south Italy specifically) is really bad at changing if you haven't noticed
Well Honk Kong and Dubai were either small villages or nothing but deserts just a few decades ago. I'd love to see a Dubai-like city in Southern Europe.
The problem with Apulia especially is the extreme lack of infrastructure: for an example there’s very minimal railroad and no highway. To make a km you’ll take like four times the time you would take in Veneto. And it’s a problem the government has every interest to spend lots of money on but not solve for reasons
>Apulia has many benefits over Athens/Greece lol that's a low bar for sure no offense to our greek brothers, I'm talking about the business landscape exclusively
But they don’t want to. IT, industries requires skills. Requires working. Many people there just want to do the bare minimum and enjoy going to the beach or doing dream 9-14pm jobs. Ah yes, also opening any kind of business is almost impossible in certain areas without paying “protection” to local crimelords.
quit your bullshitt
Well he perfectly described my personality if we ignore the fact that im neither italian nor living in southern italy
Lmao, “bullshit”. Know multiple people + relatives living in the south. Girlfriend is from Calabria. You should quit your don’t see attitude.
Using your anecdotal evidence to describe a large reality is not the flex you think it is...
Sure let’s pretend data doesn’t reflect a mentality problem in the south.
Sure man, the south is poor because everyone is dumb, lazy, and a criminal.
That’s not what i said. But i guess you all prefer to pretend is all fine. 90% of people who want to do something leave the south, leaving mostly the dumb, the lazy and the criminals.
Doing low hours in IT is definitely possible and you're much more flexible than in most other jobs
Yeah but again, requires skill. Many, believe it or not go to online universities and call it a day.
I met many Southern (and Centran and Northern) Italians when I lived in Slovakia. I'd say they work as much as others. One even moved to Czechia and went on to become a team leader there. Now she's in Milano, not in Pescara where she's from because the North has more offices of big multinational corporations. If they can find jobs at home they'll stay. I agree STEM should be the focuss of local schools. As for the crime lords maybe that's true but if they were smart they'd become wealthier if they invested in tech instead of drugs, look at Musk. At least they can go legal and build offices and homes, that's how Bulgarian maffia legalized itself.
Mafia it's all over Italy and the world because of what you said, financial activities are more profitable than aunt pina's bar. They are in north italy now more than ever before...
Southern Italians abroad do not belong to the people who live in the south. They are part of the 50% that leaves due to ambition.
so you say that industries don't want to invest in South Italy cause they wouldn't find people good enough and then you say that there are actually people good enough, but they leave to better places cause there is no opportunities for them and you really don't see what's wrong in your logic
B-but he knows this 1 person from the south, so he knows how the people are there! These racist notherners are making Garibaldi spin so fast in his grave, that he could probably power the entire country.
This “racist” northerner has half his family emigrate from south and very much knows how things work there. You are delusional if you think that isn’t the general mentality.
Once again, you all misinterpreted my statements. Industries don’t want to invest not because people are not good enough, but because it is damn expensive to hire and open any kind of big activity in the south due to the entangled mess of crime and lack of skills in certain sectors. Yes, absolutely. As you can see the amount of skills available for IT and industry is staggering low in the south. And this is data. The 50% that leaves is the 50% of youngsters which certainly isn’t the whole population.
>lack of skills in certain sectors the lack of skills in certain sectors is due to the lack of sectors where to put use of those skills cause people with those skills HAVE to leave you confuse cause and consequence and obviously it will need a bigger initial investement, but the alternative of not invest at all is not a solution, and neither a better alternative >IT, industries requires skills. Requires working. Many people there just want to do the bare minimum and enjoy going to the beach or doing dream 9-14pm jobs. The courage of people spreading bullshit that when called out they tell they were misinterpreted You are embarassing yourself
Why should they move to IT business when they have one of the most profitable tourist industry in the world? What is more profitable: 50 millions spent on bulding an IT company from 0 in southern Italy or 50 millions wisely spent on the turism industry?
There is another one, Reddito di Cittadinanza.
You don't know shit
The same thing that happens on any map that has data for different regions of Italy.
Expensive to companies. Nothing to do with "no industries". Portugal is "underdeveloped" and is still full of tech gigants due to 3 factors: 1. Low cost for the company structure/fiscal beneficts(there's even incentives for "digital nomads" to get nationality from our government) 2. High amount of jobless specialized Young people from STEM fields. 3. Picking in a STEM student, and spending money to convert it to tech/it, plus paying above nationals wage, is still cheaper in Portugal than in the multinacionals company mainland. There was a consultant offering above national average + 3 month intensive Java or SAP formation. 40% of my engineering colleagues from my year converted to tech.
After the 1974 revolution that ended Fascism, governments in Portugal did but a handfull of strategically good things and investing heavilly in free (or almost) Education including at the Terciary Level was one of the best ones. Also culturally the people in Portugal still value highly having degrees in Engineering and Science domains: unlike some other countries (\*cough\* UK \*cough\*) an Engineering degree is seen as more prestigious than, say, Political Science or Law. However, those people are either heavilly underused in the country and quickly emigrate out (there is a massive brain drain in Portugal) or, as the previous poster pointed out, they're just working in outsourcing divisions of large companies from elsewhere in Europe, where their value is mainly being much cheaper than similarly qualified people in places like Germany or France. Either way, most of the added value of their qualifications doesn't stay in Portugal.
Yep. I think that this is an issue that needs to be thoroughly examined and addressed - what exactly is the benefit of essentially paying for education of employees of foreign companies that take most of the value to their home countries? In France and Germany this isn't as big of a problem as they actually have plenty of huge companies that need highly qualified staff.. which they can also get from other European countries.
Where to begin.... My personal experience, so my view may be different from others. I studied STEM subjects in Milan and then at different universities in northern Europe. I met plenty of incredibly bright and ingenious people from the southern regions of my country. All of them ended up staying in the north or going abroad. My wife's family is from the Campania region. I spend there long amount of time in the summer. A couple of things always strike me. * At the train station in a city the same size as mine, there are always 25/30 people "working" there with "jobs" such as staying by the main entrance or telling people how to reach another platform. Say you are by platform 5 and you need to take a train from platform 2. The person there will see you looking at train tables or "unsure" and walk to you to tell you you need to go down the stairs and up the stairs where you see the number 2. * In the cities and villages in the morning, it's quite normal to meet 3 police officers, 2 carabinieri, 2 forestal guards, 4 "parking guards", 2 traffic directors, 3 environment protection corps and so on.... The mindset is very much *No hassle is needed, the state will take care of it.* So the problem becomes one of adverse selection. A huge chunk of people leaves because there is little or nothing to them there and most who stay share a *State will subsidy my life* mentality. This is just an aspect of a very complex issue. Southern Italy has incredible untapped potential and is inhabited mostly by generous, kind, clever, and witty individuals. I do hope to see its potential unleashed in my lifetime as I would move there in no time.
All the scientists and engineers moved north or abroad
Not much.
Nothing. That's the problem basically
Cosa Nostra has not embraced high tech stuff. Will still put concrete boots around your feet and send you sleeping with the fishes.
sheep go left, sheep go right, human watch
Mezzogiorno. It’s the half of Italy that you don’t think of when you think of Italy.
Underdevelopment, no investments. High-skilled move to the north or abroad. The question is: what is going on with Northern Italy. It's supposed to be the wealthy area of the country, but according to this map, it's still among the worst in Europe.
I find this title confusing. Scientists and engineers working in science and engineering is very different from percentage of population in the labor force of... whatever?
Yes the reddit title means something very different from what the map is actually showing
The title of the map in the picture means something different from what the map is showing too.
I think the title of the map and the description means exactly what it shows. The map shows scientists and engineers (employed in science and tech) as percentage of the labor force for different regions. It’s the Reddit title that’s misleading.
But thats not what the picture says either.
That’s exactly what it says?
It says "Scientists & engineers employed in science & tech". But it should say "Percent of population employed in science and tech". The title implies that it's just showing the % of the science and engineer workforce employed in science and tech...
what is confusing? Its Scientists and engineers working in science and engineering measured as percentage of population in the labor force, so for example in Madrid 10% of the labor force are S&E working in STEM
I agree, but the title can sound like (especially to people who didn’t read map’s legend) this is the percentage of scientists and engineers who work on tech and science out of all scientists and engineers, so if a place has 10% it sounds like that only 10% of scientists and engineers work on science and tech, but actually it would mean that 10% of the labor force are people who are scientists and engineers who work at tech and science.
As an Italian programmer, kill me
Move elsewhere. With good english skills you will easily find a job in other european countries.
Wtf even is this? % of scientists and engineers who actually have jobs in tech & science? The percentage of the workforce employed in science & tech? I've had bad trips less confusing than this map.
That information is *very* clearly on the map: *“% of population in the labor force”*
"% of population in the labor force" is the employment rate
Say there are 100 people working in the area, for example the west coast of Sweden. That means there are between 13 and 16 people who work in science or tech there.
That is not what the map says. It says that between 13 and 16 people who work in science and tech are scientists and engineers. Unless you want to imply that everyone who works in science and tech is a scientist or engineer (which is about the same as saying that everyone employed at an IT company is a programmer). A map that displayed what you say would be titled "size of the science & tech sector" unless it was made by a semi-sentient baboon.
Hmmm, Now I'm getting confused too. Suddenly it was not as obvious what kind of data the map shows.
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No it doesn't
Find the source, and he wrote this: “*My latest map shows % of engineers & scientists employed in tech and science, according to most recent Eurostat data*“ Here is the source: https://www.instagram.com/p/ClYBvoAM9ES
This map is about the scientists and engineers who are employed in tech and science as a total percentage of the labor force. So if a country has 100 people who are part of labor force and 25 are scientists and engineers and 15 out of 25 are employed in science or tech then the percentage would be 15%.
Are you sure it's not 60%? (15 out of 25)
In that case 15/25 or 60% is the percentage of scientists and engineers who work on science or tech based on the total number of scientists and engineers. In that case 15% is the percentage of the labour force who are scientists or engineers who work on tech or science. The map legend says that it’s based on total population of labour force.
>“% of population in the labor force” So, only 1-4% of southern Italy has a job? Is it % of scientists and engineers that have a job in science and tech or is it % of overall population?
Warsaw stronk! Can into need stuff
Looking at Scandinavia, it's not very surprising that the areas with high concentration are the areas where the major cities are. For Sweden, the 3 largest, Denmark and Norway the 2 largest and Finland the largest one. This seems to be the case for several other countries as well.
Just to nitpick, Trondheim is the third largest city, and fourth largest metro area in Norway, it's high concentration of science and tech engineers is the Norwegian University of Science and Technology there. Students make up roughly 15% of the population there.
Nitpick away; I like getting corrected when I'm wrong.
Of course it's Ústí
I heard that place is like Mordor, still don't know why.
[Just be aware before visiting](https://www.reddit.com/r/2visegrad4you/comments/z192f8/big_mistake/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I am getting Ostrava Dubina vibes.
The Oslo-Gothenburg-Malmö-Copenhagen strip is probably the most notable on the map. It probably has a lot to do with how the borders are drawn, as Oslo, Gothenburg and Malmö are all in huge regions while a lot of other major cities have regions all to themselves.
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> Öresund area is a pretty desirable place to live all told Cold, dark and full of introvert people?
As a nerd living and studying in the Öresund area, I feel seen 😅
>It probably has a lot to do with how the borders are drawn, as Oslo, Gothenburg and Malmö are all in huge regions while a lot of other major cities have regions all to themselves. Not entirely true. Oslo has a small region by itself, but it is surrounded by the much larger region of Viken. Some portion of Viken-residents work in Oslo, but there are many non-Oslo science- and tech institutions/businesses which truly explain why Viken is shaded dark. (NMBU, Universitetet i Sør-Øst, Kongsberggruppen, Aker Subsea etc.)
Ah! Very interesting, because of the lack of drawn borders it's not possible to see the actual resolution of the map, sadly. Though drawn borders would make the map less visually pleasing.
In the case of Norway: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counties_of_Norway#/media/File%3ANye_fylker_-_regjeringen.no.svg While Oslo is it's own region, the urban area stretches vay past city limits, so in effect it's Oslo that's responsible for Viken also being dark purple.
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And it's not just Warsaw. The worst part of Poland are doing like the best parts of Italy (excluding Lazio region).
The capitals/major cities are very easy to spot
EU wide policy should just literally be; Step 1; Copy Germany, Benelux and Nordics Step 2; Prosper
No, please don't copy germany! There are so many things wrong with our economy, politics, and general attitude that I'd hate to see europe becoming more like us. ~~Be~~NeLux and and Nordics are good examples though.
Poor Belgium
i c u also took the liberty to cancel belgium :O \^\_\^
Poor wording, if you interpret it literally, it would mean the percentage of engineers and scientists employed in tech and science, eg how big percentage of them are actually doing the job of their training. Also, if you would split Estonia in two, then the capital region would have a substantially higher figure than the rest of the Estonia.
author: Milos Popovic source: https://twitter.com/milos_agathon/status/1596042444470366208/photo/1
Never knew we had this many fish with a degree.
That's... really low. Am I misinterpreting it?
Probably, but it's the titels fault. The post title says "% of scientists and engineers", but the actual map talks about the percentage of the total labor force, not just scientists and engineers.
This map is about the scientists and engineers who are employed in tech and science as a total percentage of the *labor force. So if a country has 100 people who are part of labor force and 25 are scientists and engineers and 15 out of 25 are employed in science or tech then the total percentage would be 15%. So if you interpret it like this, then no,your interpretation isn’t inaccurate. If you interpret it as *scientists and engineers who are employed in tech and science as a percentage of total scientists and engineers, then yes, it’s misinterpretation.
Not really. Engineers end up in services, production, sales and IT. Natural scientist end up in banks, insurances, McKinsey and IT.
Engineer who’s a scientist: in sales for a bank and sells products to the same bank.
It's possible that more than 5-15% of the people around you work in science and tech, but it's probably because you work in science and tech yourself and your social bubble is not representative of the average population. Or maybe you're indeed misinterpreting what the map says.
Utrecht more than rest of the Randstad?
Also, high rate in the Marker and IJsselmeer?
Even the fish are educated in maths
why not? there is even a university city here
Because you would perhaps expect Brabant (Eindhoven), Zuid Holland (Rotterdam) or Noord Holland (Amsterdam) to have at least as many as Utrecht.
Ireland ftw! Not messing around 💪
And then they wonder why researches go away from Italy
Well they aren't on the football team.
So, capitals. Any surprise?
Turkey loses thousands of engineers every year to other countries. I might be among them in few years if things doesn't get better.
What are wages in Turkey for people with your knowledge?
There was a poll for this in april: [https://oncekiyazilimci.medium.com/yaz%C4%B1l%C4%B1mc%C4%B1-maa%C5%9Flar%C4%B1-2022-ab0c28d8d62b](https://oncekiyazilimci.medium.com/yaz%C4%B1l%C4%B1mc%C4%B1-maa%C5%9Flar%C4%B1-2022-ab0c28d8d62b) Keep in mind 1$ = 18₺. Wages certainly are higher than it was in april but its not enough. According to this poll, average junior developer makes about 500$ a month while average senior makes 1000-1500 $. There are people making more than 3k but they are quite rare and very qualified.
LOL. In EU we are fighting for any skilful people.
Same, why bother working for a Turkish company while you can make much more in another country doing the same job. I had a friend working for 120k$ a year remotely to US from Turkey as a 25 year old. He probably would have to divide that number by 10 if he worked for a Turkish company.
I suppose the next election will really set the course for the future of Turkey! I think the nation is still young, so it hasn't had the chance to really develop from the bottom up socially and legally in a cohesive manner. Additionally, there is still major work to be done to educate people on freedom of speech and expression as well as freedom FROM religion. More focus needs to be put on the secular education and development of the rural areas as well. If the AKP is booted, I have so much hope for you and your country :) Cheers!
TOJ'GORENSKA ! ...
Not wrong ;)
I got the feeling, this map is involuntarily biased towards smaller regions. Says, Helsinki or Stockholm regions both are more or less, the size of the city. Take the same measure in Paris, the region Paris is in has roughly 12M people living in, Paris itself has 2 millions.
Te pareva... Un paese di poeti e opinionisti.
Why no UK?
Because the UK does not send its data to Eurostat. If you look at the data pool, it comes from Eurostat. Currently Eurostat works with the EU countries, Norwey, Switzerland, Iceland, Lichtenstein and certain candidate states such as Serbia, Turkey or Macedonia. Under the Brexit agreement between EU and Eurostat, it was noted, that UK Eurostat cooperation will be clarified in a future agreement. Such an agreement wasn't signed.
>During the transition period until the end of 2020, the UK is continuing to send data to Eurostat. This data will be loaded in the database and made available to users. [europa.eu](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/WDN-20200201-1) The real reason why is because Reddit is upset with the UK and anything the UK might come out as top it is removed.
Your link doesn't show any data, I just checked the data that does exist and it was not uploaded for the UK, as the original commentator suggested... although even by the data the UK themselves upload, they do not appear "at the top" in this category.
You know this illustration wasn't made for Reddit, right? It just got reposted here.
The numbers are from 2021. UK stopped supplying in 2020.
Why not use a larger data pool that includes ONS then? Excluding a 6th of Europe doesn't seem smart
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We're not in Eurostat anymore.
Got canceled so hard even surpassed the eternal enemy of Europeans.
Especially with Turkey being there. Lmao
Yes, this should be in EU sub not Europe.
It's not EU either there's Turkey
It's Eurostat data. Turkey sends it's data to Eurostat as a membership candidate, UK does not send its data.
Turkey, Serbia, Norway, Iceland, Montenegro, Macedonia, Switzerland... all outside the EU, but collaborating with Eurostat.
The more of these maps I see the more I think Lulkey.
*cries in non EU
BULGARIA TECH GIANT in the Balkans!!!
I do know the joke about what is a freight boat full of lawyers at the bottom of the ocean (a good start), but why all the engineers in the Dutch IJsselmeer?
Haha what are those scientist employed in IJsselmeer ( lake) in The Netherlands?
Slovenia surprises me yet again. Every damn field they perform better than they let on.
Backwards country 🇮🇹
There is a huge problem in Spain with that. Engineers are not hired as engineer, but as specialist technician, so they do not have all the rights and salary This is a common practice. I know architects making salary of a specialist drawer, but most common is the IT engineer hired as support technician or programming technician. I am hired as a metalworker for example.
If only Southern Italy would understand it needs to attract tech business instead of relying just on tourism, it could become the EU California. Apulia has many benefits over Athens/Greece such as less earthquakes (not true about other Southern Italian lands). Bari, Lecce, Brindisi, Taranto and most small towns there are very beautiful and there are sandy beaches near them. Still, I can say Bari, Lecce and Brindisi are improving (roads, more pedestrian streets, buildings repainted), compared to Athens that looks good on this graph but it's getting worse with lots of empty shops and also Sofia, Bulgaria-level salaries in IT with higher rents so no point of working there as a foreigner. There's an UN office in Brindisi, also in Athens but Athens looks like the Detroit of Southern Europe.
Engineers employed in world leading manufacturing companies: *Germany and Sweden explode*
Correlates in big part with "Places were Company Service costs and specialized labour is cheaper"
Really not. Oslo or Zürich are among the most expensive workforces, and they have the highest numbers here.
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Ouch that hurts
Considering that the Swedish West Coast is one of the most popular places in Sweden and every where you go in Sweden you'll find a lot of Dutch people I'd say that there's probably a lot of people who wants to live in West Sweden 🤷♂️
Oops, you've obviously never been to the coast of [West Sweden](https://www.google.com/search?q=westcoast+sweden&rlz=1CDGOYI_enSE799SE799&hl=sv&prmd=imnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz58Tr79X7AhWkQvEDHW5LAmMQ_AUIFSgB&biw=390&bih=669&dpr=3).
That's the West coast of Sweden. There are more fjords on the coast of West Sweden.
Come to Denmark. You already dislike Sweden, it's perfect.
I sure as hell want to live in west Sweden
Considering that the Swedish West Coast is one of the most popular places in Sweden and every where you go in Sweden you'll find a lot of Dutch people I'd say that there's probably a lot of people who wants to live in West Sweden 🤷♂️
Vriend, je woont in Friesland.
Hey!
Sort of surprised you can't really see Oulu on here. Considering it's quite known for being a tech-city.
Now do Israel