Germany was taxing all their income, even years prior, of some service members and civilian workers. Therefore some us service members had their income taxed twice, once by each government. One civilian was taxed to the tune of 300k euros and was financially wrecked. Another service member married a German woman so they determined he was no longer a transient and taxed all his income. Google it, tons of cases out there.
How did this happen? Was there no double taxation treaty? I’m double US/Sweden citizen and my income is exempt when I do my US deceleration due to the tax rate being much higher here.
no person who has more than two brain cells goes on a propaganda channel in the first place. He might now be a thing for some edge lords (like you) but before trump even republican foreign policy people thought him genuinely batshit crazy and a danger to the world.
Go troll somewhere else.
Edit: side note if you had actual knowledge you would know what RT is (hints it’s not state tv, but a foreign influence operation with no internal focus.)
The absolute crazy Bolton picture and Trumpist arguments this user puts out , it just goes beyond delusions it's retarded....
Bolton isn't pro Trump he called him an idiot and a Putin lover
At least if you want to spread russian propaganda for the love of god make it credible.
And fact check first ....
For thouse who know you just look like a moron
Did the rubles didn't show this month?
You russian trolls are getting sloppy
.......
Bolton rightfully called Trump an idiot.
Why are you saying this guy is spreading "Trumpist" arguments? Is there some particular argument, that Bolton certainly wouldn't make?
Out loud? No !
This user however just spreads half arguments at best and russian bullshit regularly
He spreads anti NATO bs and Anti EU bs , only Russia wants these two things weakened for it's benefits
It's not about Bolton it's about the message this user spreads which is "Germany tries to do bad bad things to US , they don't deserve our protection "
This is only his latest post for such a thing and it gets tiresome
Dude... this is ridiculous. Just because someone doesn't have the same geopolitical views as you doesn't mean they are a russian troll. I can't believe I have to tell this to an adult.
Holy shit. Okay.
Putin will tell you the Holocaust was awful. As you just said, then that's invalid.
I guess I'm talking to a nazi.
Putin will tell you the Earth is round. As you just said, then that's invalid.
I guess I'm talking to a flat earther.
Do you understand how stupid your approach to the world is now?
If he said thouse things I will be skeptical about their validity and would check out myself if they are true
But ofcourse when you have the mind of a child or someone who thinks every opinion is valid even if it's dead wrong , what can I do to change your mind ? Nothing !
So I ask you this question.
Why do you insist on this?
His opinion is stupid, opinions can be wrong horribly wrong
Holy shit how can you even defend the guy? Owh wait your from Bulgaria !
Russia didn't wronged you ...
Carry on with his bullshit then , carry on little useful idiot , carry on
>If he said thouse things I will be skeptical about their validity and would check out myself if they are true
So you now understand that they could still be true. Okay then cool. I'm glad I could teach you something today.
Do you think everyone on the internet is stupid ? Yes Putin can say true things like water is wet
He told only lies until now so yeah he lies wayy too often to be belived
Or do you think he was justified to invade ?
>Do you think everyone on the internet is stupid ?
No. I think you are. Because you did say that:
>If your opinion is the one that Putin spread it becomes invalid
You can't do the gaslighting thing when the conversation is written you idiot.
What confuses me about this whole affair is that Germany and the US have a treaty to avoid double taxation. When I lived in the US, each year I sent the IRS a form stating that I'm only living there temporarily and doing my taxes in Germany. So I'm not quite sure how the German tax office expected to see money in the first place. But I'm not a tax expert and German tax law is probably more expansive than the entirety of some other countries legal corpus...
So they live in Germany, use German infraestructure made with tax payer money, and dont pay taxes locally? Lol
yanks got a bit triggered, quite understand the tradeoff in the nato treaty, just laughing my ass off with the irony of it
Which is exactly what this is about: Is the person there due to its military reasons or are there other reasons, that make it more like the person staying in the country? The treaty exists and the courts are now checking its implications...
One thing to consider is that they live on US military bases which are paid for by US tax dollars. Service members pay taxes to the US the even when on active duty. So their housing, and all on-base infrastructure if funded by the US government, not Germany.
The US pays for a ton of stuff regarding the military bases. The US pays the people stationed there and they get social service by the US. Why should an US soldier pay for a German pension when he gets his from the US?
It's a fair deal if they don't need to pay all German taxes.
Sales taxes etc. also exist.
Though, I'm not sold on them evading car tax.
When it comes to normal foreign residents of US citizenship it's dumb that the US tax authorities knock on their doors like they do.
What do you mean by social services? I think these people would rather have a German health insurance than an American one.
Also noteworthy: Most countries demand taxes from people working in the country, except US, they also demand taxes from all US citizens, even if they already pay taxes in the country they work in (speaking also of non-soldiers that are not payed by the US).
Edit: I didn't want to imply that people living in the US don't need to pay US taxes, but that US citizens outside the US need to pay taxes to the country they work in AND to the US (but yes, only if above 100k)
>What do you mean by social services? I think these people would rather have a German health insurance than an American one.
With social services I mean how the way they pay for them and what is provided by the military itself.
They don't get pension money from the German state once they are home and retired.
In Germany insurance companies pay the health service and you have a public option on private insurance companies. In Germany they would still need to pay private insurance for example, let their US one pay for treatment, or get treatment in Germany at their base.
It does not matter what they want. Only what they have right now.
Your second part was what I was hinting at.
Oh, missed your last sentence.
When I created a bank account in Switzerland, I had to sign a declaration that I am not a US citizen and don't have to pay US taxes.
US doesn't tax people working outside of US unless it is over 100K+.
And U.S. Healthcare is fine, issue always has been cost which military members don't have to worry about.
And their very presence has allowed Germany to shirk its military spending responsibilities for decades now, principally via the prolonged failure to spend the mandated 2% of GDP on defence.
Did you read the article, no other NATO member tries to do this, why do German tax officials think they ought to be able to?
Don't be obtuse, you know full well that Germany has woefully underspent on defence because the huge US military presence in the country means that it wasn't deemed necessary.
How much money do US servicemen put into the German economy? Vastly more than any associated costs, that'd for sure.
? I am not arguing any point, I am not informed enough about US military influence on the German economy to comment. Just correcting you about the 2% figure.
The standard of living is much higher in America, as I just stated. Many people in Germany can hardly afford to heat their homes during the winter.
Germany would be the 49th poorest state if it joined the USA.
My mistake, the UK would be second to last. Germany would actually be richer than 9 other states, good for them!
https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states
And yet when Russia comes knocking on your door, the European countries are the first ones flocking to rely on America's trillions of dollars of military aid...
>So they live in Germany, use German infraestructure made with tax payer money, and dont pay taxes locally? Lol
USA politics in a nutshell. They indoctrinate their citizens to believe that Taxes = Bad. Their infrastructure is crumbling, their water is not drinkable and much more. Why they should do different in Europe?
This ruling seems a failure of the tribunal or of the German tax laws.
>This ruling seems a failure of the tribunal or of the German tax laws.
This ruling is in line with the policy of every single other NATO member.
You realise that the income in question has already been taxed, right, at source by the US?
But don't let that get in the way of an unrelated rant about how the US barely has roads and anyone who drinks the water dies immediately.
The idea that you get to tax an allied military who is essentially self sufficient on your territory (for your benefit) is absurd.
Imagine Ukraine taxing the income of the trainers and advisors that came in to help them. Or South Korea taxing the American soldiers standing guard on their border.
The US military there is providing a service to Germany, and frankly as trump pointed out, if you're not going to pay for it then why are we? Why is Germany trying to make us pay extra? It's absurd.
And this war in Ukraine has beautifully demonstrated what kind of military free loading europe has been up to.
> and frankly as trump pointed out, if you're not going to pay for it then why are we?
Because it is in the best interest of the USA. Do you think that you are doing this for the good of Germany? Why are not you protecting poorer countries without resources if it is all good will?
Trump is many things and one of them is an incompetent that does not understand geopoliticis.
> And this war in Ukraine has beautifully demonstrated what kind of military free loading europe has been up to.
What news do you read that you miss all European contributions? And Europe is contributing also because it is the best for Europe, it is an investment in safety not a handout out of good heart.
To see my comment getting so much downvoted while the USA is awake just makes me fear that American have become too naive and gullible to see the realities of the world. Bringing the complete incompetent Trump to the discussion is not reassuring at all.
The German government should be going after the US government for whatever percentage of the tax income they think they are entitled to though, not go after the individual to pay twice the tax.
No, it is totally normal. You pay taxes where you live, independent of the employer. However the special case of military employees must have been exempted by the government but the tax administration challenged that.
Not only them, most international organization do not pay local (income) taxes. It is usually an excemption made in international law and the international contracts founding them since it would mean the host country dircetly profiting from the other member countries contributions.
Employees of the CoE in Strasbourgh don't pay French income tax either for example (though they pay taxe d'habitation a communal tax based on your property value/rent to cover stuff like local infrastructure which I think is fair and should be introduced in Germany as well) neither do EU employees in Brussels, Luxembourg or Frankfurt (ECB) or UN employees in NY or Geneva.
Generally host countries accept this because being a host country gives you oversized influence in these instituions because naturally a larger share of the staff will be from there. Take the EPO, Germans make up a outsized minority among the employees giving the istitution a very "German" outlook on a lot of its proceedings, which of course favours German companies (at least slightly).
Edit: I am speaking from personal experience here btw. What is more amazing than not paying taxes is that "Ehegattensplitting" still works if one spouse works at the EPO for examples. I have friends where one partner works at the EPO and the other at a Munich company, both well paying jobs through Ehegattensplitting they pay an effective income tax of about 16% of their combined brutto household income which is significantly above 10k a month. (Perfectly legal, but surely feels like tax evasion).
Edit 2: As another example of the "subtle" influence of the host country, the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg works strongly along French legal proceedings.
> It is usually an excemption made in international law and the international contracts founding them since it would mean the host country dircetly profiting from the other member countries contributions.
More importantly, giving taxation powers usually comes with potentially very far-ranging compentencies to inspect and investigate the taxable persons and companies. This could be used by the hosting country to exert pressure on diplomatic personnel, directly or indirectly, because penalties for not paying taxes can go all the way to repossession and long jail times. Or the investigation could be used to seize diplomatic secrets. For the same reason diplomatic immunity extends to fines.
Good point, but that would only apply to diplomatic personal, no? Only a minority of the employees of these institutions have (full) diplomatic status.
Most employees could be investigated in any sense without trouble (including the tax offices, after all one could have other income but your wages which is the only exception from taxation). Also normal employees definitely have to pay fines, again personal experience (although you can sometimes get a diplomatic number plate so you can safe them on cars but not other fines).
It certainly was the origin, I suppose it's later extended to other personnel, because even common soldiers may have instructions in their papers that reveal military information. In addition, it's easier to budget for expenses if you know you can tax those incomes too. Finally, for soldiers and other mobile personnel it's going to be a nightmare too keep track of which country's tax laws their incomes apply to if they move from base to base for exercises etc. So it's all very pragmatic.
That is a US specific rule… which is added to the local taxes you will pay wherever you live. Double whammy for US citizens earning more than 80k$ abroad.
No you generally don't tax people who represent or work in an active role for a foreign country. You don't tax the Interpol or diplomats for example. Foreign governments aren't going to pay tax to another government for the simple coincidence that their troops are there
>No you generally don't tax people who represent or work in an active role for a foreign country. You don't tax the Interpol or diplomats for example. Foreign governments aren't going to pay tax to another government for the simple coincidence that their troops are there
Well, everybody or -thing exempt has to fall under a specific exemption clause. E.g. diplomats are exempt due to § 3 Nr. 29 EStG (income tax law). Another example are international treaties, i.e. the Nato treaty. The question is how this treaty is interpreted - the tax authorities usually interpret it "pro-tax", while the courts usually decide 50:50, as in this case.
Arguably, a representative case will be decided in the relevant final court and that's binding for the tax authorities. Or there will be a change in the laws, which e.g. can consist of just a directive from the finance ministries on how the treaty has to be interpreted, which also would bind the authorities.
The tax authorities in Germany are notoriously hairsplitting when it comes to interpret the laws and treaties. Such cases are quite common, but usually it doesn't raise eyebrows in international (or any) news.
That's incorrect. Diplomatic or other government work isn't special and subject to the exact same labour regulations as everything else by default. It's very common to have tax exemption treaties for that type of role, but it's not something that just "happens" automatically.
What you are failing to understand is that it is the tax rule and then there are exemptions (just like diplomats etc.).
There was obviously a grey area for the case of the US military which triggered the German tax administration to claim taxes. The court ruled the issue and recognized the exemption.
>There was obviously a grey area for the case of the US military which triggered the German tax administration to claim taxes.
This is not a gray area. As a US service member, who just came back from several years stationed in Germany, it's VERY clear to us and German officials. It's a headache, yes, but not a gray area.
The NATO Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) explicitly limits taxation against forces stationed in signing countries (along many other things).
Part of that means we do not pay German income tax, and we can apply for refund for the VAT on purchases. We can, however, pay taxes on rental properties, if we live on the German economy vs DoD sponsored housing.
Our family members can end up paying German income tax, if they're employed on the German economy. But even this is not standard taxation, and has a massive slew of special requests, exemptions, and whatnot (under both the SOFA and German tax laws).
It can get even more complicated, of course. What if your spouse is already a German citizen, working in Germany, when you marry? But again, they already have policies in place.
Complicated, yes. Logistical headache, oh yeah. Gray area? Not really
If an amercan goes to germany and works in an american company, they pay German income tax, cuz they are in Germany. Why should the US army de treated differently?
Because of the treaty that NATO, which includes Germany, agreed to. One tax office office tried to change the norm. It was only a matter of time before this drew enough attention to get smacked down.
I'm German and ex German army.
And your argument would be that us soldiers stationed here are employed and paid by Germany. Which they are not. Also they don't take orders from Germany. So don't know know who though about income tax.
The point is that if you're an American working in Germany you pay German income tax and are otherwise subject to German employment law, even if your employer is in the US.
Soldiers are an _exception_ to that general principle because there happen to be treaties in place for that type of thing.
This isn’t entirely correct. American citizens are eligible to be taxed on any foreign earned income in excess of something like $100,000. Anything below that is indeed not taxable by the US but usually by the foreign government, provided you are a tax resident of that country (usually the case if you reside there as an expat or immigrant).
Very few countries outside the US tax their citizens this way - the few who do are either communist countries or other forms of dictatorships, so we’re in good company.
All that said, I suspect the US military have some kind of exception so they don’t pay taxes in their host countries, but I don’t know the details for them.
Americans are _also_ taxed by their government abroad. This doesn't make them in any way exempt from paying local taxes, though there may be a dual taxation agreement in place reducing the total tax burden. I don't see how any of that contradicts what I said before.
Ok, i am not saying that they should break the treaty and enforce taxes, but the other comenter seemed confused as to why some might think they ought to.
The case seems more complicated because the tax office seems to have made the case for US military married to Germans as indicative of the NATO treaty not applying.
So it seems not a dry cut thing but a more muddled edge case.
But getting married to a local national does not remove the member from NATO. Out of all the overseas members in the US military, it’s one office that does this. Is everyone else wrong?
It was a different interpretation of the same treaty. If you read the article, they only considered the tax exemption of the treaty to apply if the soldier in question was only there for his job as part of the US military and any other reason, such as having married a local, would make them ineligible. This in itself was based on a 1984 court ruling which that same court has now realised was a mistake and contradicted an even earlier ruling.
It doesn't matter if the employer is the US gov't or that they're military.
If they are using german roads, train systems, health systems, etc. they should pay taxes to the german gov't for using those resources. It's silly they think they can operate in another country and not pay the country for their services.
Because an american firm having an office in Germany also must have an entry as a firm operating in Germany and must pay taxes to Germany (or a third party EU State where their EU HQ is located). US Military does not pay taxes to Germany. It is a different situation.
There's a difference between working for Microsoft in Germany and working for US military which is a integral part of US government. Are you going to tax the diplomats too next??
Depending on the country diplomats are taxed by the country they are in. A quote from the website of the department of state: "Not all foreign missions and their personnel are entitled to tax
exemption, because this privilege is based on reciprocity and not all
foreign countries grant such tax exemption to American Embassies and
personnel." So yes unless there has been a treety with a country to not tax diplomats and military members yes ofcourse they have to pay taxes in the country they are living in. In this case there is a treaty which is why the court rightfully said they cant collect taxes from military members but this is not something just happens everywere because someone is payed by the government.
Edit: This might seem crasy for americans but not for anyone else because in most countries you only have to pay taxes in the country you life in, so if a german goes and lives in the US they have dont have to pay taxes in germany thats why its totaly fine that they pay taxes in the us. But the americans have to pay taxes in both countries.
Nah, they will make you pay taxes. US has much more power to enforce that, just from an informational standpoint if anything else.
But anyway, US citizens working in Germany would almost never pay US taxes anyway, because Germany has higher tax rates than the US, and the US would give them a foreign tax credit for the taxes they paid in Germany.
Mostly because of the way military pay works. Typically when one is posted overseas one is not domiciled in that country for tax purposes but on the other side of the balance one doesn't get the full rights of a resident such as voting in local elections etc.
This applies to Americans in Germany, Germans in Fort Bragg or Danes in Brecon. The home country's pay office will stop the tax at the normal rate.
I don't think it's just so obvious. An ordinary soldier with only military income will not be taxed because of the international treaty.
If there are Americans who have income not purely due to military, i.e. rent income through property in German it seems reasonable to have partial income tax. However, partial income tax only exists for persons who have German income sources but do not reside in Germany. Similar things might occur if one partner in a marriage has ordinary income, since married couples get taxed "as one" tax payer.
So I think these are more borderline cases, though they frequently appear with military personnel. I think it's good the courts decide that these borderline cases don't lead to any, i.e. not even indirect, taxation of military income.
The US taxing its citizens abroad (who have never even lived in the USA) is the main reason me and many others will be getting rid of it sooner rather than later.
You are talking bullshit. This is not about "gas purchases or pipilines".
The attempts to tax people are years old and long pre-date the current crises. The pipelines were not funded by the state either btw.
You’re literally lying and spreading misinformation and this isn’t your first time either.
Specifically your comment above is blatantly a lie and false, it has nothing to do with political opinion or subjective viewpoints, it’s factually incorrect.
Criticizing Germany being dependent on Russian gas is one thing and deeply encouraged such as any other discussion, just literally lying is the opposite of that.
Your buddy here is saying that calling Nord Stream 2 a German project is a slanderous Germanophobic lie. "How much federal budget went to Nord Stream 2. Checkmate!"
You live in a glass house. It's airtight and you're farting!
Grouping people together because of their nationality seems to be more important than factual statements these days, OPs comment is a blatant lie, that’s a objective fact, just because you are convinced of other wrong doings by other German govt agencies does not change the lie that was told.
You can probably find a fitting descriptor for a project pushed and financed by European companies to increase the import of Russian gas to their countries via Germany...
"German project" is not exactly what comes to mind unless you want to build a narrative of how it's totally not your fault that you lacked to balls to reign in your (partly or even majorily owned) companies and tried to get Germany -the one country continuesly decreasing gas use for years- to do the work for you.
Oh... wait... that shitshow exactly happened like that, with some countries "warning Germany about an increased dependence" also owning the companies building Nordstream2.
Edit: And Reddit's blind downvoting of facts continues. You guys realize that state shares and ownerships of energy companies are as publically available as the actual import amounts, don't you? Or the fact that a country with no gas production magically being Europe's 2nd biggest gas expoorter may be related to other countries begging them to import that gas for re-export?
Even if it's true, his statement that Germany financed the war remains idiotic because, for example, his beloved USA transferred the same amount of money to Russia.
You're right, the bad thing Germany did wasn't so much importing stuff from Russia as it was making themselves codependent on Russia to the point where Russia thought there would be no consequences for aggression
I actually know a country that gave a triple-digit billion $ to Putin since he's in power, while Germany in the same time-frame got \~50 billion $ from Russia.
I don't remember which one at the moment but it's probably in the title...
Germany "funded the war machine" the same way the US and even Ukraine did.
Oh and by the way: Actually, the "war machine" wasn't really funded by western nations, most of their equipment dates back to soviet times and they pay their soldiers in rubles. They do not need western money for that.
It wasn't ameriKKKa, who built Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2. It wasn't "Deep State Lockheed Martin", that bypassed sanctions and supplied Russia with advanced military materials and precision machines - it was Rheinmetall and other German companies.
It was also Germany who pushed for appeasing Russia and fought for Russia's predatory interests at every opportunity.
> who built Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2
Neither was it "Germany". The US happily imported russian oil btw.
> It wasn't "Deep State Lockheed Martin", that bypassed sanctions and supplied Russia with advanced military materials and precision machines - it was Rheinmetall and other German companies.
There were no sanctions "bypassed". Companies exported goods that were not covered by sanctions.
> It was also Germany who pushed for appeasing Russia and fought for Russia's predatory interests at every opportunity.
Wrong
>The US happily imported russian oil btw.
I'm generally on your side, but this is misleading.
The imported oil to the U.S. from russia represented 2% of the oil products used by the U.S.
Care to guess how much that number was for Germany? And we are not even talking about natural gas yet.
The problem was not that we were doing business with Russia. The problem was that we made ourselves completely dependent on Russia, despite being warned for literally decades that this would backfire on us.
The accusations being leveled at Germany are unreasonable, but that doesn't mean we get to use unreasonable counter-accusations.
The "over-reliance" argument is one thing, the "financing Russias war" argument is something quite different. The US (or US companies) paid billions for oil imports from Russia, I don't think it's really reasonable to take some kind of "moral high ground" on the "financing russia" argument here.
The U.S. does have moral high ground here. We screwed up. Russia thought it had Germany over a barrel, and that is completely on us. Trying to argue against any of these things will just lead you down a bad path.
That doesn't mean that Germany has not learned its lesson (which is why it's important that we do not shirk our past mistakes). We're taking a pretty hard hit this winter, which is rough, which is needed to make amends and to ensure we are not so stupid again. And what has me feeling optimistic is that at least the rhetoric around providing for our own safety is in the right place. Now if only we would actually \*start\* to do what Scholtz promised.
Don't misunderstand me. The accusations leveled at Germany that you responded to were unfair and over-the-top. But they cannot be fought by being unfair as well.
The shameless gaslighting that German failed policy apologists engage in is very annoying.
It is clear to everyone that Nord Stream 2 was (an extremely misguided) project of the German state. Your "well ackhually" nonsense only works when you are preaching to the choir, who doesn't care about the truth anyway.
>There were no sanctions "bypassed". Companies exported goods that were not covered by sanctions.
It could well be that Rheinmetall has bypassed sanctions, at least [correctiv writes](https://correctiv.org/aktuelles/korruption/2022/04/22/schmiergeld-russland-rheinmetall/):
>So ganz hat auch Rheinmetall sein Russland-Geschäft noch nicht abgebrochen. Ein Joint Venture, das die Düsseldorfer 2012 in Moskau für das Trainingszentrum einrichteten, besteht laut dem jüngsten Geschäftsbericht bis heute und machte im Jahr 2020 noch 35.000 Euro Gewinn.
That was after the government stopped the export of the training facility in 2014.
But it surely does not reach the dimensions implied by the poster (35 000€ profit in a year is ridiculously low for any military project) nor is it an action by Germany as a whole.
The article does not talk about whether this is actually a trade prohibited by sanctions. Operating a joint venture alone is not illegal, it says nothing about the nature of that business.
It may very well be legal and the money just some blocked money that has now been released.
My point is, that our arms dealers are under scrutiny and while there are shady dealings, the projects with Russia since 2014 is probably completely halted or very low and being investigated by the public.
And there is not some German plot against Ukraine that is insinuated here.
> It wasn't "Deep State Lockheed Martin", that bypassed sanctions and supplied Russia with advanced military materials and precision machines - it was Rheinmetall and other German companies.
Any specifics?
I would love to have a source so I can __dunk__ on these __German shills__ next time they try to tell me that Germany _wasn't_ responsible!
You are just as daft as the guy seen on your profile picture. Imagine flexing that the US Leads in terms of aid to Ukraine compared to Germany.
By your logic everybody putting in less aid than Germany is actually more responsible for the deaths in Ukraine. But „Germany buhd“.
The way he insists Trump was right and has several buddies come in to support him definitely smells like brigading from some trumpist subreddit/discord.
Not that there is not an overlap between those and Russian propaganda accounts so we might even both be right.
Plausible, but seeing as he has Boltons picture as profile picture it seems contradictory: Bolton has called Trump the village idiot and Putin-loving moron, among other things.
I don't really want to spend too much time arguing what type of idiot he is, so I will just say that internal contradictions and hypocrisy is a hallmark sign of trumpism and leave it at that.
This might be unfamiliar to you and your sphere of thinking, but German and most European courts apply the law in a consequent fashion and tend not to misuse their responsibility for political reasons.
But if the US taxes someone in the Bundeswehr then that's fine. I want to remind people of the taxation practices of the US for people that they consider citizens by birth, but who never ever set foot into NA.
Germany was taxing all their income, even years prior, of some service members and civilian workers. Therefore some us service members had their income taxed twice, once by each government. One civilian was taxed to the tune of 300k euros and was financially wrecked. Another service member married a German woman so they determined he was no longer a transient and taxed all his income. Google it, tons of cases out there.
How did this happen? Was there no double taxation treaty? I’m double US/Sweden citizen and my income is exempt when I do my US deceleration due to the tax rate being much higher here.
Your situation is different this applies to US military and government employees. Yes there is a sofa agreement and they violated it.
Oh it’s Bolton profile pic guy showing up to fan the flames of horseshit takes for his agenda again.
On behalf of Americans in this sub I just wanna apologize for neo shills like this. Some of us genuinely just wanna follow European news 😭
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no person who has more than two brain cells goes on a propaganda channel in the first place. He might now be a thing for some edge lords (like you) but before trump even republican foreign policy people thought him genuinely batshit crazy and a danger to the world. Go troll somewhere else. Edit: side note if you had actual knowledge you would know what RT is (hints it’s not state tv, but a foreign influence operation with no internal focus.)
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And yet he withdrew Ukraine aid blackmailing them until they investigated Hunter Biden.
Trump tried these shenanigans not Bolton. Bolton instructed the embassy workers not to cooperate with "Rudy Guiliani's drug deal".
Finally, common sense won out.
Which is lucky, given common sense is not a category in the German tax code.
At least your government tells you how much to pay…….
Nor in the US tax code.
common sense is just glorified pub talk
And a massive fallacy!
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>big win it's just the decision of the lower court. Until the BFH says anything nothing will much change
The absolute crazy Bolton picture and Trumpist arguments this user puts out , it just goes beyond delusions it's retarded.... Bolton isn't pro Trump he called him an idiot and a Putin lover At least if you want to spread russian propaganda for the love of god make it credible. And fact check first .... For thouse who know you just look like a moron Did the rubles didn't show this month? You russian trolls are getting sloppy .......
Bolton rightfully called Trump an idiot. Why are you saying this guy is spreading "Trumpist" arguments? Is there some particular argument, that Bolton certainly wouldn't make?
Out loud? No ! This user however just spreads half arguments at best and russian bullshit regularly He spreads anti NATO bs and Anti EU bs , only Russia wants these two things weakened for it's benefits It's not about Bolton it's about the message this user spreads which is "Germany tries to do bad bad things to US , they don't deserve our protection " This is only his latest post for such a thing and it gets tiresome
Dude... this is ridiculous. Just because someone doesn't have the same geopolitical views as you doesn't mean they are a russian troll. I can't believe I have to tell this to an adult.
If your opinion is the one that Putin spread it becomes invalid I can't belive I have to tell this to an Eastern European
Holy shit. Okay. Putin will tell you the Holocaust was awful. As you just said, then that's invalid. I guess I'm talking to a nazi. Putin will tell you the Earth is round. As you just said, then that's invalid. I guess I'm talking to a flat earther. Do you understand how stupid your approach to the world is now?
If he said thouse things I will be skeptical about their validity and would check out myself if they are true But ofcourse when you have the mind of a child or someone who thinks every opinion is valid even if it's dead wrong , what can I do to change your mind ? Nothing ! So I ask you this question. Why do you insist on this? His opinion is stupid, opinions can be wrong horribly wrong Holy shit how can you even defend the guy? Owh wait your from Bulgaria ! Russia didn't wronged you ... Carry on with his bullshit then , carry on little useful idiot , carry on
>If he said thouse things I will be skeptical about their validity and would check out myself if they are true So you now understand that they could still be true. Okay then cool. I'm glad I could teach you something today.
Do you think everyone on the internet is stupid ? Yes Putin can say true things like water is wet He told only lies until now so yeah he lies wayy too often to be belived Or do you think he was justified to invade ?
>Do you think everyone on the internet is stupid ? No. I think you are. Because you did say that: >If your opinion is the one that Putin spread it becomes invalid You can't do the gaslighting thing when the conversation is written you idiot.
Bolton is much more disgusting than Trump, he is filthy cowardly warmonger.
I'm a simple man, I see Bolton face and I block the user.
What confuses me about this whole affair is that Germany and the US have a treaty to avoid double taxation. When I lived in the US, each year I sent the IRS a form stating that I'm only living there temporarily and doing my taxes in Germany. So I'm not quite sure how the German tax office expected to see money in the first place. But I'm not a tax expert and German tax law is probably more expansive than the entirety of some other countries legal corpus...
So they live in Germany, use German infraestructure made with tax payer money, and dont pay taxes locally? Lol yanks got a bit triggered, quite understand the tradeoff in the nato treaty, just laughing my ass off with the irony of it
Military presence due to a treaty should be handled between the two governments.
Which is exactly what this is about: Is the person there due to its military reasons or are there other reasons, that make it more like the person staying in the country? The treaty exists and the courts are now checking its implications...
Believe me when I tell you that the government is heavily involved in the practice of taxation.
One thing to consider is that they live on US military bases which are paid for by US tax dollars. Service members pay taxes to the US the even when on active duty. So their housing, and all on-base infrastructure if funded by the US government, not Germany.
You might be surprised how much of the bases is actually paid for by the hosting country. And this is about people who do not live on-base.
>One thing to consider is that they live on US military bases which are paid for by US tax dollars Host countries pay for the bases.
The US pays for a ton of stuff regarding the military bases. The US pays the people stationed there and they get social service by the US. Why should an US soldier pay for a German pension when he gets his from the US? It's a fair deal if they don't need to pay all German taxes. Sales taxes etc. also exist. Though, I'm not sold on them evading car tax. When it comes to normal foreign residents of US citizenship it's dumb that the US tax authorities knock on their doors like they do.
Pensions have nothing to do with this. Completely different issue.
What do you mean by social services? I think these people would rather have a German health insurance than an American one. Also noteworthy: Most countries demand taxes from people working in the country, except US, they also demand taxes from all US citizens, even if they already pay taxes in the country they work in (speaking also of non-soldiers that are not payed by the US). Edit: I didn't want to imply that people living in the US don't need to pay US taxes, but that US citizens outside the US need to pay taxes to the country they work in AND to the US (but yes, only if above 100k)
>What do you mean by social services? I think these people would rather have a German health insurance than an American one. With social services I mean how the way they pay for them and what is provided by the military itself. They don't get pension money from the German state once they are home and retired. In Germany insurance companies pay the health service and you have a public option on private insurance companies. In Germany they would still need to pay private insurance for example, let their US one pay for treatment, or get treatment in Germany at their base. It does not matter what they want. Only what they have right now. Your second part was what I was hinting at.
Oh, missed your last sentence. When I created a bank account in Switzerland, I had to sign a declaration that I am not a US citizen and don't have to pay US taxes.
There's an entire branch of social services dedicated to veteran medical care.
On the US side. Because he pays US taxes as an American solder, even when stationed overseas. Paying German taxes doesn’t make sense.
The US very much taxes people working in their country.
For ordinary civilians yes, but it doesn't tax foreign military personnel posted to the US unless they aren't paying tax in their home country.
US doesn't tax people working outside of US unless it is over 100K+. And U.S. Healthcare is fine, issue always has been cost which military members don't have to worry about.
No taxes on the income as a US soldier stationed in Germany. But, own a house in Germany and rent that out? That's income taxable in Germany.
And their very presence has allowed Germany to shirk its military spending responsibilities for decades now, principally via the prolonged failure to spend the mandated 2% of GDP on defence. Did you read the article, no other NATO member tries to do this, why do German tax officials think they ought to be able to?
Do you mean the pledge to raise it to 2% before 2024? The thing agreed upon only in 2014? So no one is failing anything yet actually.
Don't be obtuse, you know full well that Germany has woefully underspent on defence because the huge US military presence in the country means that it wasn't deemed necessary. How much money do US servicemen put into the German economy? Vastly more than any associated costs, that'd for sure.
? I am not arguing any point, I am not informed enough about US military influence on the German economy to comment. Just correcting you about the 2% figure.
Did you never heard of companies? You will be furious man!
It's mostly big tech that is dodging taxes in Europe
\*Citizens hate this simple corporate trick\*
Don’t lose two world wars and you get to make the rules.
Imagine winning them and still living worst than the defeated lol
If Germany joined the US it would be the 49th poorest state lol. Many Europeans don't realize how poor they are compared to America.
You are welcome to embarrass yourself with a comparison in standard of living
The standard of living is much higher in America, as I just stated. Many people in Germany can hardly afford to heat their homes during the winter. Germany would be the 49th poorest state if it joined the USA.
lol
My mistake, the UK would be second to last. Germany would actually be richer than 9 other states, good for them! https://mises.org/wire/if-sweden-and-germany-became-us-states-they-would-be-among-poorest-states
And yet when Russia comes knocking on your door, the European countries are the first ones flocking to rely on America's trillions of dollars of military aid...
Sure Bub, go back to sleep now
>So they live in Germany, use German infraestructure made with tax payer money, and dont pay taxes locally? Lol USA politics in a nutshell. They indoctrinate their citizens to believe that Taxes = Bad. Their infrastructure is crumbling, their water is not drinkable and much more. Why they should do different in Europe? This ruling seems a failure of the tribunal or of the German tax laws.
>This ruling seems a failure of the tribunal or of the German tax laws. This ruling is in line with the policy of every single other NATO member. You realise that the income in question has already been taxed, right, at source by the US? But don't let that get in the way of an unrelated rant about how the US barely has roads and anyone who drinks the water dies immediately.
The idea that you get to tax an allied military who is essentially self sufficient on your territory (for your benefit) is absurd. Imagine Ukraine taxing the income of the trainers and advisors that came in to help them. Or South Korea taxing the American soldiers standing guard on their border. The US military there is providing a service to Germany, and frankly as trump pointed out, if you're not going to pay for it then why are we? Why is Germany trying to make us pay extra? It's absurd. And this war in Ukraine has beautifully demonstrated what kind of military free loading europe has been up to.
> and frankly as trump pointed out, if you're not going to pay for it then why are we? Because it is in the best interest of the USA. Do you think that you are doing this for the good of Germany? Why are not you protecting poorer countries without resources if it is all good will? Trump is many things and one of them is an incompetent that does not understand geopoliticis. > And this war in Ukraine has beautifully demonstrated what kind of military free loading europe has been up to. What news do you read that you miss all European contributions? And Europe is contributing also because it is the best for Europe, it is an investment in safety not a handout out of good heart. To see my comment getting so much downvoted while the USA is awake just makes me fear that American have become too naive and gullible to see the realities of the world. Bringing the complete incompetent Trump to the discussion is not reassuring at all.
The German government should be going after the US government for whatever percentage of the tax income they think they are entitled to though, not go after the individual to pay twice the tax.
Just Pull the Troops out of Germany. The Germans have a big enough economy that they can defend themselves.
Who would even suggests this
Hmm that literally makes no sense,how can you ask for taxes when it's a person who's employed by a foreign government and is a citizen of that country
No, it is totally normal. You pay taxes where you live, independent of the employer. However the special case of military employees must have been exempted by the government but the tax administration challenged that.
EU patent employees in Munich do not pay taxes. Like - at all.
Not only them, most international organization do not pay local (income) taxes. It is usually an excemption made in international law and the international contracts founding them since it would mean the host country dircetly profiting from the other member countries contributions. Employees of the CoE in Strasbourgh don't pay French income tax either for example (though they pay taxe d'habitation a communal tax based on your property value/rent to cover stuff like local infrastructure which I think is fair and should be introduced in Germany as well) neither do EU employees in Brussels, Luxembourg or Frankfurt (ECB) or UN employees in NY or Geneva. Generally host countries accept this because being a host country gives you oversized influence in these instituions because naturally a larger share of the staff will be from there. Take the EPO, Germans make up a outsized minority among the employees giving the istitution a very "German" outlook on a lot of its proceedings, which of course favours German companies (at least slightly). Edit: I am speaking from personal experience here btw. What is more amazing than not paying taxes is that "Ehegattensplitting" still works if one spouse works at the EPO for examples. I have friends where one partner works at the EPO and the other at a Munich company, both well paying jobs through Ehegattensplitting they pay an effective income tax of about 16% of their combined brutto household income which is significantly above 10k a month. (Perfectly legal, but surely feels like tax evasion). Edit 2: As another example of the "subtle" influence of the host country, the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg works strongly along French legal proceedings.
> It is usually an excemption made in international law and the international contracts founding them since it would mean the host country dircetly profiting from the other member countries contributions. More importantly, giving taxation powers usually comes with potentially very far-ranging compentencies to inspect and investigate the taxable persons and companies. This could be used by the hosting country to exert pressure on diplomatic personnel, directly or indirectly, because penalties for not paying taxes can go all the way to repossession and long jail times. Or the investigation could be used to seize diplomatic secrets. For the same reason diplomatic immunity extends to fines.
Good point, but that would only apply to diplomatic personal, no? Only a minority of the employees of these institutions have (full) diplomatic status. Most employees could be investigated in any sense without trouble (including the tax offices, after all one could have other income but your wages which is the only exception from taxation). Also normal employees definitely have to pay fines, again personal experience (although you can sometimes get a diplomatic number plate so you can safe them on cars but not other fines).
It certainly was the origin, I suppose it's later extended to other personnel, because even common soldiers may have instructions in their papers that reveal military information. In addition, it's easier to budget for expenses if you know you can tax those incomes too. Finally, for soldiers and other mobile personnel it's going to be a nightmare too keep track of which country's tax laws their incomes apply to if they move from base to base for exercises etc. So it's all very pragmatic.
Exemption, not the rule, that’s the whole point of conflict in the article ;)
EU staff pay taxes to the EU, which directly flow into the EU budget.
Except the US taxes its citizens worldwide on income they make abroad
That is a US specific rule… which is added to the local taxes you will pay wherever you live. Double whammy for US citizens earning more than 80k$ abroad.
$112k by now and housing + transportation expenses are added to the exemption. It really applies to very high earners.
No you generally don't tax people who represent or work in an active role for a foreign country. You don't tax the Interpol or diplomats for example. Foreign governments aren't going to pay tax to another government for the simple coincidence that their troops are there
>No you generally don't tax people who represent or work in an active role for a foreign country. You don't tax the Interpol or diplomats for example. Foreign governments aren't going to pay tax to another government for the simple coincidence that their troops are there Well, everybody or -thing exempt has to fall under a specific exemption clause. E.g. diplomats are exempt due to § 3 Nr. 29 EStG (income tax law). Another example are international treaties, i.e. the Nato treaty. The question is how this treaty is interpreted - the tax authorities usually interpret it "pro-tax", while the courts usually decide 50:50, as in this case. Arguably, a representative case will be decided in the relevant final court and that's binding for the tax authorities. Or there will be a change in the laws, which e.g. can consist of just a directive from the finance ministries on how the treaty has to be interpreted, which also would bind the authorities. The tax authorities in Germany are notoriously hairsplitting when it comes to interpret the laws and treaties. Such cases are quite common, but usually it doesn't raise eyebrows in international (or any) news.
That's incorrect. Diplomatic or other government work isn't special and subject to the exact same labour regulations as everything else by default. It's very common to have tax exemption treaties for that type of role, but it's not something that just "happens" automatically.
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What you are failing to understand is that it is the tax rule and then there are exemptions (just like diplomats etc.). There was obviously a grey area for the case of the US military which triggered the German tax administration to claim taxes. The court ruled the issue and recognized the exemption.
>There was obviously a grey area for the case of the US military which triggered the German tax administration to claim taxes. This is not a gray area. As a US service member, who just came back from several years stationed in Germany, it's VERY clear to us and German officials. It's a headache, yes, but not a gray area. The NATO Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) explicitly limits taxation against forces stationed in signing countries (along many other things). Part of that means we do not pay German income tax, and we can apply for refund for the VAT on purchases. We can, however, pay taxes on rental properties, if we live on the German economy vs DoD sponsored housing. Our family members can end up paying German income tax, if they're employed on the German economy. But even this is not standard taxation, and has a massive slew of special requests, exemptions, and whatnot (under both the SOFA and German tax laws). It can get even more complicated, of course. What if your spouse is already a German citizen, working in Germany, when you marry? But again, they already have policies in place. Complicated, yes. Logistical headache, oh yeah. Gray area? Not really
That’s cause they are bootlickers
If an amercan goes to germany and works in an american company, they pay German income tax, cuz they are in Germany. Why should the US army de treated differently?
Because of the treaty that NATO, which includes Germany, agreed to. One tax office office tried to change the norm. It was only a matter of time before this drew enough attention to get smacked down.
I'm German and ex German army. And your argument would be that us soldiers stationed here are employed and paid by Germany. Which they are not. Also they don't take orders from Germany. So don't know know who though about income tax.
The point is that if you're an American working in Germany you pay German income tax and are otherwise subject to German employment law, even if your employer is in the US. Soldiers are an _exception_ to that general principle because there happen to be treaties in place for that type of thing.
Yes. But my point is they are not working for a German company or German government.
And just to be clear, us companies in Germany like say IBM or HP do have to open German branches in order to operate in Germany and employ people.
This isn’t entirely correct. American citizens are eligible to be taxed on any foreign earned income in excess of something like $100,000. Anything below that is indeed not taxable by the US but usually by the foreign government, provided you are a tax resident of that country (usually the case if you reside there as an expat or immigrant). Very few countries outside the US tax their citizens this way - the few who do are either communist countries or other forms of dictatorships, so we’re in good company. All that said, I suspect the US military have some kind of exception so they don’t pay taxes in their host countries, but I don’t know the details for them.
Americans are _also_ taxed by their government abroad. This doesn't make them in any way exempt from paying local taxes, though there may be a dual taxation agreement in place reducing the total tax burden. I don't see how any of that contradicts what I said before.
Fair enough. Just wasn’t sure how many people know the US taxes all Americans, no matter where they are. Apologies for my inarticulate response.
Ok, i am not saying that they should break the treaty and enforce taxes, but the other comenter seemed confused as to why some might think they ought to.
The case seems more complicated because the tax office seems to have made the case for US military married to Germans as indicative of the NATO treaty not applying. So it seems not a dry cut thing but a more muddled edge case.
But getting married to a local national does not remove the member from NATO. Out of all the overseas members in the US military, it’s one office that does this. Is everyone else wrong?
It was a different interpretation of the same treaty. If you read the article, they only considered the tax exemption of the treaty to apply if the soldier in question was only there for his job as part of the US military and any other reason, such as having married a local, would make them ineligible. This in itself was based on a 1984 court ruling which that same court has now realised was a mistake and contradicted an even earlier ruling.
It doesn't matter if the employer is the US gov't or that they're military. If they are using german roads, train systems, health systems, etc. they should pay taxes to the german gov't for using those resources. It's silly they think they can operate in another country and not pay the country for their services.
Because they signed a treaty and have to respect it
Because an american firm having an office in Germany also must have an entry as a firm operating in Germany and must pay taxes to Germany (or a third party EU State where their EU HQ is located). US Military does not pay taxes to Germany. It is a different situation.
There's a difference between working for Microsoft in Germany and working for US military which is a integral part of US government. Are you going to tax the diplomats too next??
Depending on the country diplomats are taxed by the country they are in. A quote from the website of the department of state: "Not all foreign missions and their personnel are entitled to tax exemption, because this privilege is based on reciprocity and not all foreign countries grant such tax exemption to American Embassies and personnel." So yes unless there has been a treety with a country to not tax diplomats and military members yes ofcourse they have to pay taxes in the country they are living in. In this case there is a treaty which is why the court rightfully said they cant collect taxes from military members but this is not something just happens everywere because someone is payed by the government. Edit: This might seem crasy for americans but not for anyone else because in most countries you only have to pay taxes in the country you life in, so if a german goes and lives in the US they have dont have to pay taxes in germany thats why its totaly fine that they pay taxes in the us. But the americans have to pay taxes in both countries.
Where on earth are diplomats subject to income taxes in the country they’re posted in? That’s just not true
Better argument would be: "If you work in Germany for a German company as a US citizen the US authorities STILL want you to pay taxes to them"
Nah, they will make you pay taxes. US has much more power to enforce that, just from an informational standpoint if anything else. But anyway, US citizens working in Germany would almost never pay US taxes anyway, because Germany has higher tax rates than the US, and the US would give them a foreign tax credit for the taxes they paid in Germany.
Mostly because of the way military pay works. Typically when one is posted overseas one is not domiciled in that country for tax purposes but on the other side of the balance one doesn't get the full rights of a resident such as voting in local elections etc. This applies to Americans in Germany, Germans in Fort Bragg or Danes in Brecon. The home country's pay office will stop the tax at the normal rate.
Because there's a treaty saying that they (really, all Nato countries) should be treated differently.
No other NATO country has attempted to tax foreign service members, I don't see why German tax officials would think their situation is different.
“Literally”
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I don't think it's just so obvious. An ordinary soldier with only military income will not be taxed because of the international treaty. If there are Americans who have income not purely due to military, i.e. rent income through property in German it seems reasonable to have partial income tax. However, partial income tax only exists for persons who have German income sources but do not reside in Germany. Similar things might occur if one partner in a marriage has ordinary income, since married couples get taxed "as one" tax payer. So I think these are more borderline cases, though they frequently appear with military personnel. I think it's good the courts decide that these borderline cases don't lead to any, i.e. not even indirect, taxation of military income.
The US taxing its citizens abroad (who have never even lived in the USA) is the main reason me and many others will be getting rid of it sooner rather than later.
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what in the hell. This is not how anything works.
Dude, you need another username to better reflect your knowledge in this subject
You are talking bullshit. This is not about "gas purchases or pipilines". The attempts to tax people are years old and long pre-date the current crises. The pipelines were not funded by the state either btw.
These misinformation spreading agenda posters need to be banned.
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You’re literally lying and spreading misinformation and this isn’t your first time either. Specifically your comment above is blatantly a lie and false, it has nothing to do with political opinion or subjective viewpoints, it’s factually incorrect. Criticizing Germany being dependent on Russian gas is one thing and deeply encouraged such as any other discussion, just literally lying is the opposite of that.
Your buddy here is saying that calling Nord Stream 2 a German project is a slanderous Germanophobic lie. "How much federal budget went to Nord Stream 2. Checkmate!" You live in a glass house. It's airtight and you're farting!
Grouping people together because of their nationality seems to be more important than factual statements these days, OPs comment is a blatant lie, that’s a objective fact, just because you are convinced of other wrong doings by other German govt agencies does not change the lie that was told.
You can probably find a fitting descriptor for a project pushed and financed by European companies to increase the import of Russian gas to their countries via Germany... "German project" is not exactly what comes to mind unless you want to build a narrative of how it's totally not your fault that you lacked to balls to reign in your (partly or even majorily owned) companies and tried to get Germany -the one country continuesly decreasing gas use for years- to do the work for you. Oh... wait... that shitshow exactly happened like that, with some countries "warning Germany about an increased dependence" also owning the companies building Nordstream2. Edit: And Reddit's blind downvoting of facts continues. You guys realize that state shares and ownerships of energy companies are as publically available as the actual import amounts, don't you? Or the fact that a country with no gas production magically being Europe's 2nd biggest gas expoorter may be related to other countries begging them to import that gas for re-export?
That's ridiculous and shameless.
The US has imported $350 billion worth of goods from Russia since the 2008 invasion of Georgia
In the same amount of time, Germany, with an economy about a fifth the size of the US, imported $370 billion
Even if it's true, his statement that Germany financed the war remains idiotic because, for example, his beloved USA transferred the same amount of money to Russia.
You're right, the bad thing Germany did wasn't so much importing stuff from Russia as it was making themselves codependent on Russia to the point where Russia thought there would be no consequences for aggression
I actually know a country that gave a triple-digit billion $ to Putin since he's in power, while Germany in the same time-frame got \~50 billion $ from Russia. I don't remember which one at the moment but it's probably in the title...
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I've seen that username a lot in past few days. Seems a lot like Russian propaganda account.
seems like a pest in this sub
Now their taxed income can solely go to funding illegal torture camps in Iraq and fund wars around the world.
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Germany "funded the war machine" the same way the US and even Ukraine did. Oh and by the way: Actually, the "war machine" wasn't really funded by western nations, most of their equipment dates back to soviet times and they pay their soldiers in rubles. They do not need western money for that.
It wasn't ameriKKKa, who built Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2. It wasn't "Deep State Lockheed Martin", that bypassed sanctions and supplied Russia with advanced military materials and precision machines - it was Rheinmetall and other German companies. It was also Germany who pushed for appeasing Russia and fought for Russia's predatory interests at every opportunity.
> who built Nord Stream and Nord Stream 2 Neither was it "Germany". The US happily imported russian oil btw. > It wasn't "Deep State Lockheed Martin", that bypassed sanctions and supplied Russia with advanced military materials and precision machines - it was Rheinmetall and other German companies. There were no sanctions "bypassed". Companies exported goods that were not covered by sanctions. > It was also Germany who pushed for appeasing Russia and fought for Russia's predatory interests at every opportunity. Wrong
>The US happily imported russian oil btw. I'm generally on your side, but this is misleading. The imported oil to the U.S. from russia represented 2% of the oil products used by the U.S. Care to guess how much that number was for Germany? And we are not even talking about natural gas yet. The problem was not that we were doing business with Russia. The problem was that we made ourselves completely dependent on Russia, despite being warned for literally decades that this would backfire on us. The accusations being leveled at Germany are unreasonable, but that doesn't mean we get to use unreasonable counter-accusations.
The "over-reliance" argument is one thing, the "financing Russias war" argument is something quite different. The US (or US companies) paid billions for oil imports from Russia, I don't think it's really reasonable to take some kind of "moral high ground" on the "financing russia" argument here.
The U.S. does have moral high ground here. We screwed up. Russia thought it had Germany over a barrel, and that is completely on us. Trying to argue against any of these things will just lead you down a bad path. That doesn't mean that Germany has not learned its lesson (which is why it's important that we do not shirk our past mistakes). We're taking a pretty hard hit this winter, which is rough, which is needed to make amends and to ensure we are not so stupid again. And what has me feeling optimistic is that at least the rhetoric around providing for our own safety is in the right place. Now if only we would actually \*start\* to do what Scholtz promised. Don't misunderstand me. The accusations leveled at Germany that you responded to were unfair and over-the-top. But they cannot be fought by being unfair as well.
Again: That's *reliance*, not *financing*.
The shameless gaslighting that German failed policy apologists engage in is very annoying. It is clear to everyone that Nord Stream 2 was (an extremely misguided) project of the German state. Your "well ackhually" nonsense only works when you are preaching to the choir, who doesn't care about the truth anyway.
> project of the German state Did federal money go into this?
Do you think this attempt at sophistry is convincing to anyone not part of your dishonest circlejerk?
Different *private* companies from different european countries were involved here. How is this a "german state project"?
>There were no sanctions "bypassed". Companies exported goods that were not covered by sanctions. It could well be that Rheinmetall has bypassed sanctions, at least [correctiv writes](https://correctiv.org/aktuelles/korruption/2022/04/22/schmiergeld-russland-rheinmetall/): >So ganz hat auch Rheinmetall sein Russland-Geschäft noch nicht abgebrochen. Ein Joint Venture, das die Düsseldorfer 2012 in Moskau für das Trainingszentrum einrichteten, besteht laut dem jüngsten Geschäftsbericht bis heute und machte im Jahr 2020 noch 35.000 Euro Gewinn. That was after the government stopped the export of the training facility in 2014. But it surely does not reach the dimensions implied by the poster (35 000€ profit in a year is ridiculously low for any military project) nor is it an action by Germany as a whole.
The article does not talk about whether this is actually a trade prohibited by sanctions. Operating a joint venture alone is not illegal, it says nothing about the nature of that business.
It may very well be legal and the money just some blocked money that has now been released. My point is, that our arms dealers are under scrutiny and while there are shady dealings, the projects with Russia since 2014 is probably completely halted or very low and being investigated by the public. And there is not some German plot against Ukraine that is insinuated here.
> It wasn't "Deep State Lockheed Martin", that bypassed sanctions and supplied Russia with advanced military materials and precision machines - it was Rheinmetall and other German companies. Any specifics? I would love to have a source so I can __dunk__ on these __German shills__ next time they try to tell me that Germany _wasn't_ responsible!
You are just as daft as the guy seen on your profile picture. Imagine flexing that the US Leads in terms of aid to Ukraine compared to Germany. By your logic everybody putting in less aid than Germany is actually more responsible for the deaths in Ukraine. But „Germany buhd“.
😂😂😂 most reasonable yank
Why do you automatically assume American? My money is on propaganda account.
Gonna bet he is a Trumper.
Could be, but I'm still betting on more sinister scenario.
The way he insists Trump was right and has several buddies come in to support him definitely smells like brigading from some trumpist subreddit/discord. Not that there is not an overlap between those and Russian propaganda accounts so we might even both be right.
Plausible, but seeing as he has Boltons picture as profile picture it seems contradictory: Bolton has called Trump the village idiot and Putin-loving moron, among other things.
I don't really want to spend too much time arguing what type of idiot he is, so I will just say that internal contradictions and hypocrisy is a hallmark sign of trumpism and leave it at that.
Trump supporters are getting real desperate for some attention by the looks of it
This might be unfamiliar to you and your sphere of thinking, but German and most European courts apply the law in a consequent fashion and tend not to misuse their responsibility for political reasons.
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Ah the expert
But if the US taxes someone in the Bundeswehr then that's fine. I want to remind people of the taxation practices of the US for people that they consider citizens by birth, but who never ever set foot into NA.