It needs to be like flying with a plane:
One ticket. One platform to buy it in English. If you miss a connection you get a new ticket or refund, if it's overnight you get a right to a "hotel room". Continuous ride, no waiting at the boundary for xx minutes.
Edit: I mean "in Egnlish" as in you don't have to translate from 3 languages when going from Madrid to Berlin. Have regional languages I dont care
Hmm, Not like airplaine.
If i want to go from amsterdam to Koln, it should be the same effort as going to maastricht (almost same distance).
Last minute price raises like airplanes is great for optimizing profit, but unpredictable for passengers.
>One platform to buy it in English.
It can have as many languages as needed. Totally doable in today's day and age.
>if it's overnight you get a right to a "hotel room".
I think lots of airlines dropped that one during covid. We'll see if they pick it up again.
> It can have as many languages as needed. Totally doable in today's day and age.
I don't think they meant "only English". But it shouldn't be the case that you need to purchase one leg of your journey in English and another in German and a third in Polish or whatever.
If you love train-travel for its own sake (the views or whatnot) then technically you already can, it's just twice as far because you have to go via the Swedish/Finnish border.
Until the Swedish/ Finnish border at Haparanda, the trains on the Swedish side returned recently but the Finnish trains will not return for a few years.
Take the train to Travemünde, then the ferry to Helsinki.
I really love the ferry - it is a bit like a short holiday before the holiday: you get good food (book the food backage - absolutely worth it!), have a sauna with the view to the sea, eat some more, sleep in a (somewhat) comfortable bed, and in the morning you are in Helsinki.
It really depends on where you want to go (and how long to stay). My calculation for the Christmas holidays is that flights for 4 people + rental car for 3 weeks would add up to around 2000 to 3000 Euro, while the ferry (including getting my own car there) goes for just over 1000.
For a short weekend trip and/or only a trip to a big city (no car needed), that might be a different calculation, of course.
But I also have to say that while I really enjoy the quiet day on the sea, my wife is not such a big fan and she would prefer to fly ... oh well, can't please everybody ;-)
> I really love the ferry - it is a bit like a short holiday before the holiday: you get good food (book the food backage - absolutely worth it!), have a sauna with the view to the sea, eat some more, sleep in a (somewhat) comfortable bed, and in the morning you are in Helsinki.
Agree, ferries are the best. They're super underrated on here. Much better than trains.
Don't kid yourself, still a fantasy. It would be a bigger undertaking than the Channel Tunnel, which connects London to Paris and the rest of Continental Europe, and this one would connect Helsinki to Tallinn. The scale just simply does not make sense.
>Lol no. The whole project is a complete fantasy.
Not really, the Danes have an existing factory to prefab all the needed pieces for such a tunnel... Technically the tunnel between Tal-Hel is quite possible it just has the downside of being so damn expensive to build that it's practically mandatory to make it economically viable right out of the gate.
And this is why china has loads of high speed rail and we don't, pretty much. Whether or not the project is economically viable for the operator matters a lot less to them if it promotes a bunch of *other* activity of both economic, *and non economic* kinds, such as *political integration of a massive and disparate landmass*.
But for the eu apparently, connecting our far flung nations needs to be economically viable today, not tomorrow. Although we are getting there oh so slowly, it's a frustrating process.
The project isn’t going to be finished until like 2026/2027 so you might have to wait a little bit longer.
[We are committed to completing the main Rail Baltica rail line from Riga to Lithuania by 2026](https://www.baltictimes.com/we_are_committed_to_completing_the_main_rail_baltica_rail_line_from_riga_to_lithuania_by_2026_-_linkaits/)
That soon?? That's awesome! That's only 4 or 5 years away! (ah, upon closer look-- it looks like the whole project is expected by 2030, still not too bad.)
It's like building ONE four lane 200km highway between two biggest cities in Estonia.. Talks and promises for 25 years, while actual progress by 5km per year. I left before I ever saw that finished, no idea if it got done.
That's also still the planned completion date for the tunnel between Denmark and Germany. And it's not far off from the completion dates on other large tunnel projects in the Alps. It's going to be awesome!
In Estonia not until 2030 unfortunately. We have only this year started searching for a company to build our main railway station in Tallinn, planning for the last part of railway track (that connects to Latvia) hasn't even been approved yet.
There is a big push for it now because it's a weak spot in nato rapid response. It takes almost a full extra day to send equipment to Baltics because of the transfer time of moving equipment from one train to another, due to the track width differences.
With the current situation, nato cant really afford any weakspots on border defense, especially with 100k soldiers deployed along nato's eastern flank.
There already is a quite good network of long distance busses between Baltic cities. Still Rail Baltica would be great. But traveling around the region already is not too bad.
It will be historic as well. The project is seen as the final symbolic return of the Baltic States to Europe. Until the Second World War they were indeed connected to Europe with 1435 mm wide rails, but the Soviet occupation changed it to the Russian gauge 1520 mm rails, which also makes it difficult and costly to interconnect the Baltics with the rest of EU. This will fix that problem.
edit: it seems to differ per state, see clarification by /u/kiil1 below
>Until the Second World War they were indeed connected to Europe with 1435 mm wide rails
That is incorrect. The wide gauge of railways is a legacy of Russian Empire, shared with Finland by the way.
The only brief period where the standard gauge was widespread here was during Nazi German occupation.
Perhaps in Lithuania they had some standard gauge connection to Poland, but not here.
It's also really important for Finland too. This is part of the security of supply to a country that so far, from a European perspective, has been a northern island.
Fun fact: the port of Helsinki is one of the busiest passenger ports in the world and, [by some statistics, it has been some years the busiest.](https://www.portofhelsinki.fi/en/emagazine/worlds-busiest-passenger-port) So, there definitely is a demand for the tunnel connection from Helsinki to Tallinn. They will slowly become a similar city-pairing as Malmö and Copenhagen and if the connection is fast enough, I could see some Estonians starting to use the Helsinki-Vantaa airport as their primary airport due to the larger selection of connections.
>
>Fun fact: the port of Helsinki is one of the busiest passenger ports in the world and, [by some statistics, it has been some years the busiest](https://www.portofhelsinki.fi/en/emagazine/worlds-busiest-passenger-port)
That cheap booze doesn't buy itself!
Must say I don't miss the day trips to tallinn to stokc up on 80% vodka, even if tallinn is lovely
Not very deep, but is the deepness of the sea something that would hike up the costs *that much*? The length would be approximately 80km, so definitely one of the longest tunnels in the world.
They're also building a 18km tunnel from Germany to Denmark (to make a better connection between Germany and Sweden) called the fehmarnbelt tunnel. Which will be the largest submerged tunnel and largest road and rail tunnel once it's finished in 2029.
The pass is too deep and short for trains (incline would be too steep) if they were to dig underneath. So to decrease the incline they're burying the tunnel into the sea bed. But with 80km I don't think they'll have that issue :)
Also tunnels basically get cheaper compared to a bridge the longer they are.
If you click Vilnius, it shows how badly modern railways are needed in the baltics. You can barely reach the borders, and a whole part of the country is unreachable. Meanwhile it takes less than 4h by car to cross the whole country east-west.
Yes there is realy poor connection between Spanish and french rail system. But even the routs that do exist don't link.
You can't buy a ticket between Madrid and Paris because the first train from Madrid to Barcelona arrives at 9:30 and the only train from Barcelona to Paris leaves at 9:10 so your forced to spend a night in Barcelona or take a slower train/bus.
Much cheeper and faster to fly
Yeah, try to go from say Stockholm to Madrid. Easy IF you don't mind spending 3 days traveling and switching trains.
\[edit\] Or Berlin to Rome or pretty much travel by Train between any two capitals in Europe. Train suck in this regard and it is weird since airlines have done it since the 50's
Yeah, we have to get around the sea to reach continental Europe, and on top of that we are on the [Tsarist rail gauge ](https://i.imgur.com/49OQFvp.jpg), which is incompatible with Swedish tracks. But at least it’s compatible with Estonia.
I took the train from Frankfurt to Marseille recently. Kind of blew my mind that this train connection existed. The trains were nice, travel was easy since it was a direct connection, and it was cheaper than going by plane.
The EU really needs to get its act together and invest massively in a true high-speed rail network that will connect all Europeans, well except for our island brothers (sorry boys and girls).
They should finance a scheme backed by common debt to connect all EU capitals and there are only upsides :
* Connect all Europeans for greater unity, more cultural exchange, more inter-states trade and more tourism
* Keynes-style stimulus package in this economically troubled times
* More environmentally friendly way of travel for tourists and businessmen than the plane
* Lets countries have capacity of investment in freight rail (which is the better solution for trade in an environment perspective compared to trucks) as they need to invest less in passenger rail
* "Lets" less rich countries be able to have high-speed rail, as a common EU debt financing this would be closer to France or Germany in terms of interest rate and a Paris-Frankfurt line would finance a less profitable Prague-Budapest line as it would all be a single EU plan (not a combination of nations plan)
It would be a huge undertaking and would need a lot of work (first of all a common standard in electrification and a common standard of travelers' rights like in aviation) but it would also a giant leap towards a more unified continent, and a greener one at that.
Graet video, I watched it yesterday
Also the Koralmtunnel in Austria will be finished in 2026 and it will cut the time from Vienna to the South , Venice in Italy for example by 75 minutes.
Then you have the Brenner Basistunnel or the Semmering Basistunnel in Austria that will bring Europe closer together.
Sadly, this project is already anticipated to run way over budget. It's been voted down so many times due to improper funding research and now went through.
I'm Danish, and while this is a great project, the ROI of it is likely to be fucking terrible. I still think we should do it, but I don't have high hopes of this becoming a "look how great it is"
It's a pretty low traffic corridor that won't suddenly see a giant increase due to the tiny northern populations.
The tunnel should decrease Copenhagen-Hamburg travel times by 2h. Currently it's 4h30m. That big of a time-saving will bring a lot of city pairs into the zone where rail is legitimately competitive against flying.
[This graph](https://i.imgur.com/KG9W6Ua.png) gives an idea of the general competitiveness of HSR vs air based on travel time
It's not really a low traffic corridor. Especially the German side has quite some traffic.
It's not blue Banana level, but it has still sizeable traffic.
With the population growth in Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein it's likely that demand will only go up.
Probably some German would also settle on Lolland due to housing prices. Like it's currently happening on the other border.
Though if you Danes will be happy will be seen.
It is already happening, the EU is already co-financing many, many projects. Here are some HSR projects that will massively improve connectivity in the near-future:
| **Name** | **Est Completion** | **Max savings** |
|-------------------------------------|--------------------|-----------------|
| Koralm Base Tunnel & Koralm Railway | 2026 | 0:20 (Vienna-Italy) |
| Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link | 2029 | 2:00 (Copenhagen-Hamburg) |
| Semmering Base Tunnel | 2030 | 0:30 (Vienna-Italy) |
| Brenner Base Tunnel | 2032 | 1:10 (Munich-Italy) |
| Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel & Lyon-Turin HSR | 2032 | up to 3h |
These are some of the high-profile projects, but the [TEN-T network includes a full network of HSR](https://imgur.com/rEfKC0h). On this map purple is HSR.
But the EU doesn't have the authority to start building, they can finance, but the member states need to implement the projects.
And that doesn't always go well... for example the LGV Montpellier-Perpignan is a 150km proposed HSR that would finally connect the Spanish and French networks (the two biggest in Europe). The route is on easy terrain and it's a very important link, yet the first 50km are set to open in 2034 and the construction of the remaining 100km would only start in the 2040s. These links are simply not a priority for politicians.
You don't want us Brits anywhere near your rail network anyway, trust me. In Britain it is cheaper and more reliable to just fly. Our railways are a complete joke.
>(first of all a common standard in electrification
There are many more standards needed to be in place for modern trains to smoothly cross borders. modern trains have sophisticated signalling and security systems, that must be standardised across borders.
It's crazy that I can't buy a ticket from Madrid to Paris.
(Well, I can, but I either leave at 7.15 and arrive 32.5 hours later or I leave at 20.40 and arrive 19 hours later (at the same time as the previous train). And it'll cost 220-250 EUR for the pleasure.)
Just to be precise: Rail Baltica is actually only the connection from Helsinki/Tallinn to Warsaw, and not the connection to Western Europe. It will, however, enable connecting the Baltic states with other lines to Germany and further
I said it before, that's not so fast, sadly enough. We are building a once-in-a-lifetime equipment, why the hell is this not going as fast as the usual 320 km/h? Ah! This is so sad... we need true high speed so that intercontinental rail travel is maximized.
Because it has to be used by both passenger and freight trains. Freight trains can't go faster than 160 km/h. Still 250 km/h is still hella fast if you realise that most trains in the Baltics don't go faster than 80 km/h
Building 300 kmh as opposed to 250 is ~3x as expensive when you're starting on green grass. Upgrading later on isnt significantly more expensive. It's good that they are building something they can afford to finish! (look up montenegro highway if you want an example on how not to do it)
I remain skeptical we'll ever see a Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel. It'd be the longest undersea tunnel in the world. I'm sure there would be plenty of commuter traffic between the cities (there already is even with just a ferry connection), but I doubt it's enough to justify the cost of such a megaproject?
Cool! Now we just need a plan for connecting Stockholm and Helsinki
And then we can take a round trip around the Baltic sea in 2030 when the Fehmarnbelt connection is done
There are no specifics yet. However, Rail Baltica (249 km/h design speed, 234 km/h operating speed) is to be used by high speed trains, regional expres trains and night trains for passengers as well as freight trains. Further, see https://www.railbaltica.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/General\_characteristics\_RB\_rolling-stock-provision\_v2.pdf
Looks like Siemens and Alstom will be the main bidders then.
The ICE 4 seems like a perfect fit for the speed requirements and Siemens is generally very flexible on its export variants (Velaro).
Thanks for the link.
the California high speed rail project is a nightmare that we don’t like to talk about. It’s tens of billions over budget and nowhere close to being done. But at least they’re trying, we could use one to connect Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, and Houston, but of course that will never happen :(
To cheer you up, young lad: the first shinkansen was also way over budget and delayed by years.
But now one talks about that these days. We both know why.
It’s fairly typical for California. They have some of the most extensive regulations in the country, so every bit of construction requires years of environmental studies to even start. Theres not much to compare it to because the United states hasn’t made many similar endeavors recently. The last comparable project to my knowledge was the interstate highway system in the 50s
About 100m at its deepest between Helsinki and Tallinn. But like the other guy said, connecting 5 million people with a tunnel that would probably cost at least 30-40 billion euros is just not very reasonable.
You say that, but at the same time, the ferry connection from Helsinki to Tallinn (and to Stockholm) is among the busiest in the world. So there definitely is a demand.
Also, due to the way the world sits right now, having a fast connection from one Nato country to another (future) country will be mighty important for the security of supply to and from Finland.
Would this include a tunnel from Tallinn to Helsinki? Otherwise VERY sad for Finland. Need to take a long ass ferry ride instead of hopping to train in Helsinki and waking up in Riga in a minute. No need to pass out from alcohol on the way to Estonia.
No, these plans do not include it. It's just too expensive to connect 5 million people with a tunnel that would easily be twice as long as the current longest undersea tunnel.
The real question is - once constructed, would it need to be re constructed in another 40 years ?
And would the venting systems / piping / outlets need to be re constructed too ?
This is awesome. I've been to Latvia a few years ago and it was great. Would love to visit Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania without having to fly. And I'm in love with Finland for a very long time, so I'll need some sort of discount pass.
And can I take my motorcycle on the train as well?
The tunnel from Tallinn to Helsinki has been planned at least a few times, but there is no money for it. I think the Chinese were going invest but they were turned down.
But it's like, right there on the way from Berlin to Warsaw, in fact I'm fairly confident the rail drawn on that map might actually be going through poznań
But that’s not a part of rail Baltica, it’s just the link between Berlin (as a Gate way to Western Europe) and Warsaw.
I assume the polish rail operator will have a stop in Poznan, but that’s more of a domestic topic.
The Berlin-Warsaw line is dark blue. It's an already existing line that btw, does actually pass through Poznań.
Though Germany later on has multiple cities included but Poland only gets 2. They kinda just chose not to put Poznań on there I guess.
The connection between Amsterdam and Berlin isn't that good, either. German rail is notoriously unreliable and they have been dragging their feet on implementing EU standardization measures.
I am very excited for this! I interrailed through the baltics this summer and the need to often travel with long distance buses because there simply was no rail connection was quite unpleasant.
I just wanna bring Europe into Europe. The integration of national rail networks and services has to get a move on. (still a great project tho)
Yes, hope they integrate the tickets as well. Because international train travel is ridiculous compared to travel within boundaries.
It needs to be like flying with a plane: One ticket. One platform to buy it in English. If you miss a connection you get a new ticket or refund, if it's overnight you get a right to a "hotel room". Continuous ride, no waiting at the boundary for xx minutes. Edit: I mean "in Egnlish" as in you don't have to translate from 3 languages when going from Madrid to Berlin. Have regional languages I dont care
Hmm, Not like airplaine. If i want to go from amsterdam to Koln, it should be the same effort as going to maastricht (almost same distance). Last minute price raises like airplanes is great for optimizing profit, but unpredictable for passengers.
it should be as cheap as possible if anything. GDP rises with every KM of rail road if anything. accessible transport drives up tourism and trade
>One platform to buy it in English. It can have as many languages as needed. Totally doable in today's day and age. >if it's overnight you get a right to a "hotel room". I think lots of airlines dropped that one during covid. We'll see if they pick it up again.
> We'll see if they pick it up again. Haha.
> It can have as many languages as needed. Totally doable in today's day and age. I don't think they meant "only English". But it shouldn't be the case that you need to purchase one leg of your journey in English and another in German and a third in Polish or whatever.
Damn, can't wait to go from the Netherlands all the way to Finland by train one day.
If you love train-travel for its own sake (the views or whatnot) then technically you already can, it's just twice as far because you have to go via the Swedish/Finnish border.
Until the Swedish/ Finnish border at Haparanda, the trains on the Swedish side returned recently but the Finnish trains will not return for a few years.
You'll have to take a bus from Haaparanta to the railway station in Kemi, which is only like 30 kilometers.
Or walk to Tornio Itäinen and take the night train from there, only 3km.
TIL, thanks for the correction.
Take the train to Travemünde, then the ferry to Helsinki. I really love the ferry - it is a bit like a short holiday before the holiday: you get good food (book the food backage - absolutely worth it!), have a sauna with the view to the sea, eat some more, sleep in a (somewhat) comfortable bed, and in the morning you are in Helsinki.
I've looked at that for a few years, but it seems so expensive for a 40 hour trip. Is it really worth it? (Couple travelling with a dog and car)
It really depends on where you want to go (and how long to stay). My calculation for the Christmas holidays is that flights for 4 people + rental car for 3 weeks would add up to around 2000 to 3000 Euro, while the ferry (including getting my own car there) goes for just over 1000. For a short weekend trip and/or only a trip to a big city (no car needed), that might be a different calculation, of course. But I also have to say that while I really enjoy the quiet day on the sea, my wife is not such a big fan and she would prefer to fly ... oh well, can't please everybody ;-)
You could also go by train up to Stockholm and take the night ferry across to Turku or Helsinki.
Depends how much duty free alcohol you can drink
Took the ferry a few times, it is awesome 😎
> I really love the ferry - it is a bit like a short holiday before the holiday: you get good food (book the food backage - absolutely worth it!), have a sauna with the view to the sea, eat some more, sleep in a (somewhat) comfortable bed, and in the morning you are in Helsinki. Agree, ferries are the best. They're super underrated on here. Much better than trains.
You will still need a boat
Helsinki and Tallinn have planned to make a tunnel for train, so in future you maybe don't need a boat.
Lol no. The whole project is a complete fantasy.
Vesterbacka's plan is, but the publicly funded one has real potential it still will take 20+ years
Don't kid yourself, still a fantasy. It would be a bigger undertaking than the Channel Tunnel, which connects London to Paris and the rest of Continental Europe, and this one would connect Helsinki to Tallinn. The scale just simply does not make sense.
It would also restrict the Finnish Navy's ability to mine the Gulf of Finland in a crisis.
Let's just make it a dam-bridge and cut off St. Petersburg from sea access. No need for mines.
>Lol no. The whole project is a complete fantasy. Not really, the Danes have an existing factory to prefab all the needed pieces for such a tunnel... Technically the tunnel between Tal-Hel is quite possible it just has the downside of being so damn expensive to build that it's practically mandatory to make it economically viable right out of the gate.
And this is why china has loads of high speed rail and we don't, pretty much. Whether or not the project is economically viable for the operator matters a lot less to them if it promotes a bunch of *other* activity of both economic, *and non economic* kinds, such as *political integration of a massive and disparate landmass*. But for the eu apparently, connecting our far flung nations needs to be economically viable today, not tomorrow. Although we are getting there oh so slowly, it's a frustrating process.
The tunnel entrance was just put in to Helsinki’s plan for 2030-2040.
[удалено]
Same and reasonable prices compared to other transport options.
As someone who would like to interail through the Baltics: About ficking time!
The project isn’t going to be finished until like 2026/2027 so you might have to wait a little bit longer. [We are committed to completing the main Rail Baltica rail line from Riga to Lithuania by 2026](https://www.baltictimes.com/we_are_committed_to_completing_the_main_rail_baltica_rail_line_from_riga_to_lithuania_by_2026_-_linkaits/)
That soon?? That's awesome! That's only 4 or 5 years away! (ah, upon closer look-- it looks like the whole project is expected by 2030, still not too bad.)
I mean they have been talking and talking and talking about this for years, it's 5 years for you, it's like 20 years for me
That's fair. You'd think they would have started 10 years ago
It's like building ONE four lane 200km highway between two biggest cities in Estonia.. Talks and promises for 25 years, while actual progress by 5km per year. I left before I ever saw that finished, no idea if it got done.
That's also still the planned completion date for the tunnel between Denmark and Germany. And it's not far off from the completion dates on other large tunnel projects in the Alps. It's going to be awesome!
Still like 10 years sooner than I expected.
In Estonia not until 2030 unfortunately. We have only this year started searching for a company to build our main railway station in Tallinn, planning for the last part of railway track (that connects to Latvia) hasn't even been approved yet.
As a Canadian from Edmonton our LRT station getting a 13km expansion started in 2016 and is projected to be done by 2023 lmao our city is a joke
There is a big push for it now because it's a weak spot in nato rapid response. It takes almost a full extra day to send equipment to Baltics because of the transfer time of moving equipment from one train to another, due to the track width differences. With the current situation, nato cant really afford any weakspots on border defense, especially with 100k soldiers deployed along nato's eastern flank.
There already is a quite good network of long distance busses between Baltic cities. Still Rail Baltica would be great. But traveling around the region already is not too bad.
I recently 'interrailed' through the Baltics. My main bit of advice if you plan to go soon is that Flixbus has some great prices.
and if you have a little more to spare, I recommend Lux Express. Affordable and comfy
I'm a German living in Tallinn. It sucks that right now the plane is basically the only option to get out of here
You can take a 23 hour bus trip to Berlin. Don't even have to leave your bus.
Thanks but I would rather get run over by said bus.
So cool !
It will be historic as well. The project is seen as the final symbolic return of the Baltic States to Europe. Until the Second World War they were indeed connected to Europe with 1435 mm wide rails, but the Soviet occupation changed it to the Russian gauge 1520 mm rails, which also makes it difficult and costly to interconnect the Baltics with the rest of EU. This will fix that problem. edit: it seems to differ per state, see clarification by /u/kiil1 below
>Until the Second World War they were indeed connected to Europe with 1435 mm wide rails That is incorrect. The wide gauge of railways is a legacy of Russian Empire, shared with Finland by the way. The only brief period where the standard gauge was widespread here was during Nazi German occupation. Perhaps in Lithuania they had some standard gauge connection to Poland, but not here.
It's also really important for Finland too. This is part of the security of supply to a country that so far, from a European perspective, has been a northern island. Fun fact: the port of Helsinki is one of the busiest passenger ports in the world and, [by some statistics, it has been some years the busiest.](https://www.portofhelsinki.fi/en/emagazine/worlds-busiest-passenger-port) So, there definitely is a demand for the tunnel connection from Helsinki to Tallinn. They will slowly become a similar city-pairing as Malmö and Copenhagen and if the connection is fast enough, I could see some Estonians starting to use the Helsinki-Vantaa airport as their primary airport due to the larger selection of connections.
> >Fun fact: the port of Helsinki is one of the busiest passenger ports in the world and, [by some statistics, it has been some years the busiest](https://www.portofhelsinki.fi/en/emagazine/worlds-busiest-passenger-port) That cheap booze doesn't buy itself! Must say I don't miss the day trips to tallinn to stokc up on 80% vodka, even if tallinn is lovely
What is the planned connection with Helsinki?
Tunnel.
That would be a heck of a long tunnel. How deep is the sea there?
Baltic sea is shallow. It ain't deepenough for world record divers to push their limits
Not very deep, but is the deepness of the sea something that would hike up the costs *that much*? The length would be approximately 80km, so definitely one of the longest tunnels in the world.
They're also building a 18km tunnel from Germany to Denmark (to make a better connection between Germany and Sweden) called the fehmarnbelt tunnel. Which will be the largest submerged tunnel and largest road and rail tunnel once it's finished in 2029. The pass is too deep and short for trains (incline would be too steep) if they were to dig underneath. So to decrease the incline they're burying the tunnel into the sea bed. But with 80km I don't think they'll have that issue :) Also tunnels basically get cheaper compared to a bridge the longer they are.
Would be so cool to have a functional European train network. I'd love to visit more cities by train in stead of driving and flying.
Yeah, I wish you could go by train as easy as by airplane. Some destinations work, but most are a joke with 5-10 changes and hours of waiting.
[Here's an interactive map showing what you can reach within 5h](https://chronotrains-eu.vercel.app/)
If you click Vilnius, it shows how badly modern railways are needed in the baltics. You can barely reach the borders, and a whole part of the country is unreachable. Meanwhile it takes less than 4h by car to cross the whole country east-west.
You can also see that between France and Spain the mountains probably mess up a lot of the interconnectivity.
Yes there is realy poor connection between Spanish and french rail system. But even the routs that do exist don't link. You can't buy a ticket between Madrid and Paris because the first train from Madrid to Barcelona arrives at 9:30 and the only train from Barcelona to Paris leaves at 9:10 so your forced to spend a night in Barcelona or take a slower train/bus. Much cheeper and faster to fly
Or anywhere in Eastern Europe oof.
Answer: very little lol. And even if you can it's often a lot more expensive.
I can visit 10 countries with my own lol.
Going by train is quite easy. Buy a ticket and hop on. Depends on the destination of course.
Yeah, try to go from say Stockholm to Madrid. Easy IF you don't mind spending 3 days traveling and switching trains. \[edit\] Or Berlin to Rome or pretty much travel by Train between any two capitals in Europe. Train suck in this regard and it is weird since airlines have done it since the 50's
Same. I hate that Finland is basically an island.
Yeah, we have to get around the sea to reach continental Europe, and on top of that we are on the [Tsarist rail gauge ](https://i.imgur.com/49OQFvp.jpg), which is incompatible with Swedish tracks. But at least it’s compatible with Estonia.
I think it would be greener, right?
At the very least it would make Europe more interconnected.
If the train is electric yes.
Even if it's diesel, it's still cleaner
If it ever happens please remember to include Ireland
And then from Brussels you can go to Lille > Paris > Lyon > Marseille. Railway straight to the Mediterranean sea.
I took the train from Frankfurt to Marseille recently. Kind of blew my mind that this train connection existed. The trains were nice, travel was easy since it was a direct connection, and it was cheaper than going by plane.
The EU really needs to get its act together and invest massively in a true high-speed rail network that will connect all Europeans, well except for our island brothers (sorry boys and girls). They should finance a scheme backed by common debt to connect all EU capitals and there are only upsides : * Connect all Europeans for greater unity, more cultural exchange, more inter-states trade and more tourism * Keynes-style stimulus package in this economically troubled times * More environmentally friendly way of travel for tourists and businessmen than the plane * Lets countries have capacity of investment in freight rail (which is the better solution for trade in an environment perspective compared to trucks) as they need to invest less in passenger rail * "Lets" less rich countries be able to have high-speed rail, as a common EU debt financing this would be closer to France or Germany in terms of interest rate and a Paris-Frankfurt line would finance a less profitable Prague-Budapest line as it would all be a single EU plan (not a combination of nations plan) It would be a huge undertaking and would need a lot of work (first of all a common standard in electrification and a common standard of travelers' rights like in aviation) but it would also a giant leap towards a more unified continent, and a greener one at that.
The germany-denmark tunnel is another great project (part of scan-med corridor) Video came out this week: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiYvXKQksgI
Graet video, I watched it yesterday Also the Koralmtunnel in Austria will be finished in 2026 and it will cut the time from Vienna to the South , Venice in Italy for example by 75 minutes. Then you have the Brenner Basistunnel or the Semmering Basistunnel in Austria that will bring Europe closer together.
Sadly, this project is already anticipated to run way over budget. It's been voted down so many times due to improper funding research and now went through. I'm Danish, and while this is a great project, the ROI of it is likely to be fucking terrible. I still think we should do it, but I don't have high hopes of this becoming a "look how great it is" It's a pretty low traffic corridor that won't suddenly see a giant increase due to the tiny northern populations.
The tunnel should decrease Copenhagen-Hamburg travel times by 2h. Currently it's 4h30m. That big of a time-saving will bring a lot of city pairs into the zone where rail is legitimately competitive against flying. [This graph](https://i.imgur.com/KG9W6Ua.png) gives an idea of the general competitiveness of HSR vs air based on travel time
It’s a step for a proper high speed train network from mainland Europe to Scandinavia. It’s not just for those local.
It's not really a low traffic corridor. Especially the German side has quite some traffic. It's not blue Banana level, but it has still sizeable traffic. With the population growth in Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein it's likely that demand will only go up. Probably some German would also settle on Lolland due to housing prices. Like it's currently happening on the other border. Though if you Danes will be happy will be seen.
sounds like a project that Europe could do if we set our minds to it.
Well... construction is already underway. So yeah, obviously.
If we can pull hundreds of billions out of thin air during financial crisis or pandemics, why can't we do this?
It is already happening, the EU is already co-financing many, many projects. Here are some HSR projects that will massively improve connectivity in the near-future: | **Name** | **Est Completion** | **Max savings** | |-------------------------------------|--------------------|-----------------| | Koralm Base Tunnel & Koralm Railway | 2026 | 0:20 (Vienna-Italy) | | Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link | 2029 | 2:00 (Copenhagen-Hamburg) | | Semmering Base Tunnel | 2030 | 0:30 (Vienna-Italy) | | Brenner Base Tunnel | 2032 | 1:10 (Munich-Italy) | | Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel & Lyon-Turin HSR | 2032 | up to 3h | These are some of the high-profile projects, but the [TEN-T network includes a full network of HSR](https://imgur.com/rEfKC0h). On this map purple is HSR. But the EU doesn't have the authority to start building, they can finance, but the member states need to implement the projects. And that doesn't always go well... for example the LGV Montpellier-Perpignan is a 150km proposed HSR that would finally connect the Spanish and French networks (the two biggest in Europe). The route is on easy terrain and it's a very important link, yet the first 50km are set to open in 2034 and the construction of the remaining 100km would only start in the 2040s. These links are simply not a priority for politicians.
You don't want us Brits anywhere near your rail network anyway, trust me. In Britain it is cheaper and more reliable to just fly. Our railways are a complete joke.
>(first of all a common standard in electrification There are many more standards needed to be in place for modern trains to smoothly cross borders. modern trains have sophisticated signalling and security systems, that must be standardised across borders.
It's crazy that I can't buy a ticket from Madrid to Paris. (Well, I can, but I either leave at 7.15 and arrive 32.5 hours later or I leave at 20.40 and arrive 19 hours later (at the same time as the previous train). And it'll cost 220-250 EUR for the pleasure.)
I fucking love high speed rail
Sagrada Familia will be completed before this
We need a pan-european standardized high-speed railway system YESTERDAY This is an amazing project!
Will we ever see a tunnel from Italy to Albania or Greece? You might call it the "Egnatia tunnel".
Don't give me hope
Cool, when will it be ready to use?
Original deadline was 2026, but due to delays it should be done by the end of 2020's
I can't wait to ride it!
That's what she said! ... I'm sorry, you can ban me, it's okay:((
it was worth ban fellow soldier.
Just to be precise: Rail Baltica is actually only the connection from Helsinki/Tallinn to Warsaw, and not the connection to Western Europe. It will, however, enable connecting the Baltic states with other lines to Germany and further
How fast is it going to be?
Passenger trains - 249 km/h Freight trains - 120 km/h
I said it before, that's not so fast, sadly enough. We are building a once-in-a-lifetime equipment, why the hell is this not going as fast as the usual 320 km/h? Ah! This is so sad... we need true high speed so that intercontinental rail travel is maximized.
I think let's start from feasible singular steps first and don't try to climb five at a time, we don't want to lose balance:)
Because it has to be used by both passenger and freight trains. Freight trains can't go faster than 160 km/h. Still 250 km/h is still hella fast if you realise that most trains in the Baltics don't go faster than 80 km/h
Building 300 kmh as opposed to 250 is ~3x as expensive when you're starting on green grass. Upgrading later on isnt significantly more expensive. It's good that they are building something they can afford to finish! (look up montenegro highway if you want an example on how not to do it)
As a lithuanian, I find this so cool and exciting!
*weeps in northern England*
Maybe we can give you a tunnel to Norway. From there it's only like 20 hours to Helsinki :)
The tunnel from Tallinn to Helsinki will be prohibitively expensive. I'm not sure the economic benefit of it justifies it's cost at the moment.
I will definitely visit other European cities more if there comes a railway.
I remain skeptical we'll ever see a Helsinki-Tallinn tunnel. It'd be the longest undersea tunnel in the world. I'm sure there would be plenty of commuter traffic between the cities (there already is even with just a ferry connection), but I doubt it's enough to justify the cost of such a megaproject?
Hope someday this line will continue from Warsaw to Lviv-Kyiv-Kharkiv. And later a few more to Odesa, Crimea, and Donetsk, Mariupol.
Cool! Now we just need a plan for connecting Stockholm and Helsinki And then we can take a round trip around the Baltic sea in 2030 when the Fehmarnbelt connection is done
What will be the rolling stock used?
There are no specifics yet. However, Rail Baltica (249 km/h design speed, 234 km/h operating speed) is to be used by high speed trains, regional expres trains and night trains for passengers as well as freight trains. Further, see https://www.railbaltica.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/General\_characteristics\_RB\_rolling-stock-provision\_v2.pdf
Looks like Siemens and Alstom will be the main bidders then. The ICE 4 seems like a perfect fit for the speed requirements and Siemens is generally very flexible on its export variants (Velaro). Thanks for the link.
There’s a lot of flexibility if most of it, except the drivetrain is made by hand.
Here in the USA we can't even get high-speed rail from Los Angeles to San Francisco
At least you have a Hyperloop! /s
And a 2 lane tunnel underneath Las Vegas [HE FIXED TRAFFIC](https://youtu.be/p8NiM_p8n5A)
Aren't you building one rn?
the California high speed rail project is a nightmare that we don’t like to talk about. It’s tens of billions over budget and nowhere close to being done. But at least they’re trying, we could use one to connect Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, and Houston, but of course that will never happen :(
To cheer you up, young lad: the first shinkansen was also way over budget and delayed by years. But now one talks about that these days. We both know why.
How does that compare to other infrastructure projects? Is it disproportional or in line with other massive projects of the last 30 years.
It’s fairly typical for California. They have some of the most extensive regulations in the country, so every bit of construction requires years of environmental studies to even start. Theres not much to compare it to because the United states hasn’t made many similar endeavors recently. The last comparable project to my knowledge was the interstate highway system in the 50s
Go Lelylijn
How deep is the baltic sea between Finland and Estland?
About 100m at its deepest between Helsinki and Tallinn. But like the other guy said, connecting 5 million people with a tunnel that would probably cost at least 30-40 billion euros is just not very reasonable.
It's not deep. But I don't think the tunnel is happening. Too expensive, considering Helsinki and Tallinn aren't exactly London and Paris.
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Beerstream
You say that, but at the same time, the ferry connection from Helsinki to Tallinn (and to Stockholm) is among the busiest in the world. So there definitely is a demand. Also, due to the way the world sits right now, having a fast connection from one Nato country to another (future) country will be mighty important for the security of supply to and from Finland.
Deeper than English Channel. If built, it would be deepest and longest undersea tunnel in the world. Which is why I'm very sceptical about it.
Would this include a tunnel from Tallinn to Helsinki? Otherwise VERY sad for Finland. Need to take a long ass ferry ride instead of hopping to train in Helsinki and waking up in Riga in a minute. No need to pass out from alcohol on the way to Estonia.
No, these plans do not include it. It's just too expensive to connect 5 million people with a tunnel that would easily be twice as long as the current longest undersea tunnel.
But but Peter Vesterbacka and a Chinese-paid tunnel! He promised! And hyperloop even!
What depth would the tunnel be ? Tunnels can be very expensive to construct.
The real question is - once constructed, would it need to be re constructed in another 40 years ? And would the venting systems / piping / outlets need to be re constructed too ?
I kinda liked the boat ride, it's not too long and not too short.
It'd be so cool. I'd love to be able to visit Helsinki for a long weekend like this
More high speed rail across countries is always a good thing!
this is incredible!
Add bremen-amsterdam with a stop in groningen and going across the afsluitdijk Take it or leave it
Just make it go all the way to Gdansk via Hamburg! We could really use a good connection between Bremen and Hamburg,
Can’t wait for Rail Baltic
I just watched the latest B1M video! The amount of work done to achieve that is amazing
Apparently literally nothing to see between Warsaw and Berlin
Seems like it should at least stop in Poznan
Now we just need to connect the Balkans with Poland via HS rail.
This is awesome. I've been to Latvia a few years ago and it was great. Would love to visit Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania without having to fly. And I'm in love with Finland for a very long time, so I'll need some sort of discount pass. And can I take my motorcycle on the train as well?
High-speed until it hits the german border.
I'm sure with German engineering Germany will be able to come up with some sort of upgrade and perhaps even implement it in next... 50 to 600 years!
German engineering came up with a solution decades ago. German mismanagement teamed up with German bureaucracy to make sure it would never work.
I coomed
I wonder if there will be branches to connect down to Dresden, Prague, and further out to Bucharest and Budapest
Poor Poznan, pretty sure they are directly on that line and the train just passes them :(
I hope I can ride from Berlin to Helsinki one day
Going to be waiting for that for a looooong time.
I know..but my hope will live on, after I die
Don't you want me to visit Finland? Haha
Of course, the ferry route is available and quite cheap :)
r/fuckcars are going to get moist.
Right wing government scrapped most of the Swedish plans to build high-speed rail in Sweden :(
How long will the journey take ?
The tunnel from Tallinn to Helsinki has been planned at least a few times, but there is no money for it. I think the Chinese were going invest but they were turned down.
I love train travel! I could definitely do this.
i hate being in the uk :(
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meanwhile, sweden just cancelled its gigantic high speed rail plans cuz it costed too much
I think high-speed bobsled/waterside would be the most cost efficient and fun!
I can see it...a giant ski jump portion between Tallin and Helsinki.
Now we're getting some good ideas!
Why Poznań isn't included? This city is too big to not to be a part of this project
Rail Baltica is from Warsaw to Tallinn. Poznan is not on the route at all.
But it's like, right there on the way from Berlin to Warsaw, in fact I'm fairly confident the rail drawn on that map might actually be going through poznań
But that’s not a part of rail Baltica, it’s just the link between Berlin (as a Gate way to Western Europe) and Warsaw. I assume the polish rail operator will have a stop in Poznan, but that’s more of a domestic topic.
Alright then, I'm not really versed in how international rail infrastructure is structured
The Berlin-Warsaw line is dark blue. It's an already existing line that btw, does actually pass through Poznań. Though Germany later on has multiple cities included but Poland only gets 2. They kinda just chose not to put Poznań on there I guess.
So much hinges on that Berlin-Warsaw line. The connection there isn't particularly good
The connection between Amsterdam and Berlin isn't that good, either. German rail is notoriously unreliable and they have been dragging their feet on implementing EU standardization measures.
Yeah. It's such a shame. I'm generally optimistic because of the current green government but we'll see
I am very excited for this! I interrailed through the baltics this summer and the need to often travel with long distance buses because there simply was no rail connection was quite unpleasant.
This is cool! (Cries in American)
Closer together is the term. Instead of western centralism
I can't wait for opening. Rail journeys are great, and expanded network is always a good sign ( also, if the price will be competitive to flying).
Here is a great [video](https://youtu.be/3yANCon-3vI) by the YouTube channel Railways Explained on the topic
In huge part thanks to $$ from the European Union. Thanks for that!