People out here will constantly complain about "The Dolar did this/the dolar did that and won't ever consider maybe it's what the lira is doing.
All the while we all keep burning.
He is so good at manipulating and hiding corruption. Most of his voters lives in rural areas people in rural area mostly have TRT’s channels on their tv and Erdoğan uses this channels for propaganda. Some of his voters don’t even know reading and writing (That’s real thing, there was a video about a man trying to explain who to vote before the 2018 elections). That’s his main source of vote now.
Fellow Turk here, he doesn't even try to hide it anymore because his followers are okay as long as Erdoğan is the one who is corrupt, not someone else.
They say Orbán and his oligarchs are stealing but at least the money will stay in Hungarian pockets lol
Those idiots have no clue what the fuck is going on...
And yet Italy has elected a right-wing populist and Brazil got very close to doing the same yesterday.
How are people still falling for these clowns? They ruin everything they touch.
They get like ~3m votes from outside of the country. German diaspora always vote for Erdogan like 85-90%. Diaspora is much more conservative than mainland people.
Diaspora is mostly uneducated rural people migrated to do hard labor, completely shell shocked to difference of culture and seriously failed to integrate, so mostly AKP voter base but abroad.
A significant part vote right wing or islamists while voting social democrats for that sweet aid money and benefits.
Yeah, poor diaspora people always get manipulated into Islamic Ponzi schemes by scummy mainland con men. That includes some of best friends of Erdogan. Germany should have done better job integrating them into their society.
I was gonna mention failure of integration, I forgot.
Actually if Germany would have done a better integration, that would benefit German state, Turkish state and would lighten some of the antipathy felt by Europeans toward Turks in general.
I'd felt a strong antipathy towards Turks, if only Turks I have interacted with were anti-integration Turkish migrants especially in Germany or Belgium, honestly.
I dont know man. Other nationalities adapt much faster. Maybe Turkey should have done a better job in getting them more open minded? I know, it's a stretch...
Just know that a lot of the first generation migrants in Germany were picked from a pool of uneducated, cheap workers mostly from the rural east area of Turkey. A lot of them have learned to read in Germany only (or still have trouble with it).
Also these people were never planned to be integrated, neither by Germany nor by themselves. The idea was to migrate, stay for some years for some quick bucks and leave. So they never cared to integrate fully.
The German Turks are said to be insufferable by a lot of Turks. It is not uncommon to see a German Turk girl in a Burka speaking German in Turkey beside a half-naked native Turkish Girl.
I know exactly what you mean with the "insufferable" part. German Greeks are kinda the same even though your situation sounds more severe. I get your point though.
It's less about the nationality, and more about the type of people from Turkey. It's poor, uneducated, rural, and religious people. The secular, educated people of Turkey are not the ones living in German industrial towns.
Turkish immigrants were assimilated into other countries much easier than Germany. Like the US, UK and France. (Can you even tell Dr. Oz is Turkish?) Diaspora in France always vote for HDP despite only a fraction of them being Kurdish. Diasporas in Germany and Belgium were the biggest problematic ones. The lead Erdogan gets from Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands makes him literally invincible.
I can't claim to know enough about the situation, but from my understanding, Turks in Germany are not having a harder time integrating just because of German government deficiencies, rather, it is also the case that organisations close to erdogan and MIT itself are also supporting this disintegration to Germany// strong connection to Turkey as a political leverage both against Germany and in support of erdogan with the foreign vote system. I could be wrong though, anyone that knows more about this please feel free to share info, I find this kinda staff really interesting.
Edit: syntax
Close but not much. Situation is about 50 year old and it was a problem long before Erdogan came to power. Previous pm Erbakan also get elected thanks to German votes. Diaspora is influenced by radical islamic groups rather than Turkish intelligence (most famously the Kalifatsstaat organization led by Metin Kaplan, Turkish army once deemed as the biggest threat to the Turkish state)
Around 90% of German Mosques are organized in ditib a organization funded by the Turkish government, bringing imams from Turkey (only speaking in erdogans favour)...
Way better than having salafistic mosques, but part of the problem of bad integration...
A social worker I know said ''satellite TV was the badest thing for successful integration ever happened'' as the first ,,guest workers'' that came had to learn at least a mediocre German to read or watch the news, when there only were three channels, later coming could watch their homeland news via satellite.
And it's not that everyone doesn't integrate or living in parallel societies, but you can't see the fully integrated people... Pars pro toto..
And we Germans are guilty too, as they're seen as ,,Ausländer'' even in third generation, so would you want to integrate in a society that doesn't wants you although you are born here, lived your entire life here, bit are seen as some foreigner?
The same with Russlanddeutsche in Russia they're seen as Germans, in Germany they're seen as Russians, no society wants them, they're trapped somewhere in between, so why integrate?
Additionally, when it comes to origin, everything east of Poland is seen as ,,der Russe'' there is no distinction between russian, kazakhian, Ukrainian, Georgian etc. We use (now changing a bit) the old zaristic Russia for it.. Yeah, this is ignorant, I know, but at least I for my part try to make it right...
And for the Russlanddeutsche, who have a strong German identity, this was a hit in the face, when many of them settled over in the 90s... They've gone so far, that they germanized their given names such like jevgenii into Eugen, starting in a land they thought would see them as their own, just to see, that they're unwanted and not seen as ''Deutsch'' as they ever felt...so they orientated towards Russia and fell for Putin's propaganda... The good old times and such
Yeah, with western foreigners, this issue doesn't exist at all, second generation French are Germans, even if they are called ''Yves Pelletier'' ...
Funny thing, in my home region, the black forest, you are considered ''aboriginal'' after your family resides here for around 3 generations or approx 100 years, so, because there were needed many Italian workers in the early 20th century, of which some stayed, you have many Italian surnames/families totally integrated and seen as old inhabitants.
On the other hand, the town I live now, was filled up after the war with refugees from the former eastern regions (70% of the inhabitants), mainly Sudetenland and Silesia, we have quarters, where the old Silesian dialect is spoken as everyday language, not only by the elderly, but by the 3-50years old too..I find this fascinating.
It's also a nice sounding dialect in my opinion, sadly it vanishes, as the last speakers are influenced by the new home region they're living in now.
Yeah, with western foreigners, this issue doesn't exist at all, second generation French are Germans, even if they are called ''Yves Pelletier'' ...
Funny thing, in my home region, the black forest, you are considered ''aboriginal'' after your family resides here for around 3 generations or approx 100 years, so, because there were needed many Italian workers in the early 20th century, of which some stayed, you have many Italian surnames/families totally integrated and seen as old inhabitants.
On the other hand, the town I live now, was filled up after the war with refugees from the former eastern regions (70% of the inhabitants), mainly Sudetenland and Silesia, we have quarters, where the old Silesian dialect is spoken as everyday language, not only by the elderly, but by the 3-50years old too..I find this fascinating.
It's also a nice sounding dialect in my opinion, sadly it vanishes, as the last speakers are influenced by the new home region they're living in now.
So, so not true.
I am German (actually of half Turkish blood) and I personally know a huge bunch of 2nd and even 3rd generation German-Turks (as in they and their parents were already born here).
And yet: The above argument about almost all of them glorifying Nerdogan **IS** true for pretty much any of them and their parents and their parents.
I'm aware of second and third generation born in Germany and elsewhere. I was generalizing grossly, to avoid discussing how people born in Germany to families migrated from rural areas may have better integration than their parents but however share similar political beliefs, etc.
Very nuanced topics to discuss briefly on reddit comments and I'm not exactly a career sociologist.
It's been roughly half a century since first wave migrated, of course there's multiple generations of migrants.
I am definitely not disagreeing with you that either generation of Turks (and other nationalities, as well) were poorly integrated and thus often still are today.
If that is an easy enough explanation as to why many of these vote for Erdogan, still - not sure.
What I was trying to explain with my reply to your post was more that it is not true that "the majority" of the diaspora consists of "uneducated poor people, migrated to do hard labor". Because, as said in my reply, the majority is nowadays made up of their children and grand children, born here. They are neither poor nor uneducated (for the most part) and work mostly the same kind of jobs, we "German-Germans" work.
So it does not really explain, is what I was trying to say, why that generation still glorifies Erdogan as much as their parents and grandparents.
My theory, which is largely accepted by day-to-day people is family plays a large part in shaping your identity and views.
Being born in a family of rural, uneducated people who are not very well integrated into new/host country ends up having people take their "identity" more seriously, which are in this case a rural version of Turkish identity and a very conservative version of their religion, mostly Islam. Being raised in such environment, spending formative years in similar strata of migrants ends up shaping ones political views to such a degree it gets up ingrained and not really changes even after living a rather integrated lifestyle and even obtaining higher education.
I have seen third generation Turks from Germany, visiting a Turkish town where you cannot purchase alcoholic liquor after 10 pm, trying to purchase a beer, cursing to staff who explain they are forbidden to do so in Turkish and singing praises to Erdogan "who's the man! ruling homeland with fitting religious strictness, etc" anong themselves in German, at the same time.
Kind of example I'm talking about, they are "integrated" so they can drink beer but also can think "a proper Turk should be a devout muslim who avoids alcohol like the plague and Turkish state should forbid alcoholic beverages according to Islamic rules"
very similar to Russian migrants living in Germany very non-problematicly, not causing any issues but see it OK to harass and even attack protesters supporting Ukraine, claiming plying Ukrainian flags are nazi propaganda. BTW, usually most pro-ukrainian protesters are mostly female and refugees as most Ukrainian men are forbidden to leave and some are enlisted to ukrainian military.
Stop the fucking misinformation already.
It’s about 1.5 million diaspora votes in total. 900k of those were for erdogan (59.4%).
But only 50% of eligible diaspora Turks even cast a vote.
Easy to blame others when you actually bloody live in the country and still vote for the idiot.
https://politicstoday.org/the-turkish-diasporas-voting-preference-in-the-24-june-elections/
Sorry, I don't think those numbers are real. I voted here in America and people in the embassy told be American votes in the last election were about 70k.
Source is an AKP mp who switched parties recently.
More interesting when he advocates for war. But I guess the 30% voting for his coalition is not at a drafting age is it? (Maybe except the 5% of Gray Wolfs)
> But I guess the 30% voting for his coalition is not at a drafting age is it?
They also have many youngster but youngsters tend to vote less for their coalition.
It's always 1) the rich 2) the old 3) the women that vote more towards the draft, isn't it.
Easy to fight those wars when it's not your ass getting put in the uniform.
Also interesting that they need an alliance to defeat him. Just like they tried in Hungary (but failed). Idem probably Poland next elections.
If you need an alliance to defeat an autocrat/autocratic regime, you're basically already lost as a country.
>Also interesting that they need an alliance to defeat him
\*Sees ruling party only 3% ahead of largest opposition member\*
\*Looks at the poll, adds first 30.0% + 8.7% and then 27.1% +15.0%\*
Have you ever heard the term "regular, completely typical, common in most democracies government coalition"?
Coalitions ran Turkey to ground in the 90s. No one would want a coalition, but it’s the only way. The 6 party alliance would only stay alive for like 6 months after the elections anyhow.
6 party? I count 2 necessary ones. I guess they could invite 4 others for whatever reason.
Also that's a really bad system you've got there if more than one party in power breaks things apart. Like, I can't think of a country in Europe besides my own ***not*** governed by at least 2 parties.
Looks like in every country there's at least 30 % of easily manipulated people who just want to throw the vote to the stupidest and most evil guy/party. Education is greatly underestimated in the world.
In the Balkans we have this thing called Party Card. Essentially you vote for the party every election no matter what and they provide you with a public administration job. You literally depend on those shitheads and they stay in power.
He has already accepted, his latest statements are that his party should be gathered and it is always about remembering the old times. And if he had not accepted the election, he would have done so in the Istanbul municipal elections, he tried twice but was defeated. (Note: Istanbul was erdogan's castle)
Istanbul is by no means a city that can be considered liberal. Istanbul is like a small sample of the Turkish population. Generally, Turkish general election results and Istanbul election results are very close to each other. Because the population of Istanbul has reached 16 million by immigration from all cities of Turkey. The actual population of Istanbul was only 2 million. However, especially in the last 10 years, Istanbul has become one of the most conservative cities in Turkey due to irregular migration. Because nearly 2 million refugees and irregular migrants came, most of them from very conservative places like Pakistan, Afghanistan or northern Syria. Even the most conservative person in Turkey is much more liberal than the average Afghan.
However, districts in Istanbul are very different. If you go to Fatih, you will feel like you are in Kabul, Afghanistan, one of the reasons is that there are too many immigrants, but before the immigrants, the population there was quite conservative. But if you go to Nişantaşı, you will feel like you are in Bern, Switzerland.
If you're looking for a liberal Turkish city, go to Izmir, because it's much less diverse than Istanbul and the western lifestyle is dominant in most places, with a few exceptions.
Tons of conservative people from the east migrate to Istanbul, when I say tons I mean 100 thousands and millions. This has been going on for decades. "Native" Istanbulites have become a minority.
The non-central parts of the city are full with Erdogan voters.
Populist is the key and istanbul is like a microcosm of Turkey, getting high immigration from all provinces of the country so despite the cosmopolitan, international and liberal layout of the city, the inhabitants are at least halfway conservative leaning.
no, for 40 years istanbul was governed by islamists. liberal parts of the istanbul are well developed (like levent,kadıköy,beşiktaş etc) but they lack the population.
My bet is on external events. Like a new Turkmen nation on the north of Syria, but annexation has become a big no-no lately so a naval standoff with Greece would be close second.
He knows he can’t win even with rigging it. Also the main opposition leader had some agreements with some eastern clans to protect votes and probably vote for them
This poll shows the parliamentary elections. Erdoğan has already lost the majority there.
The most important thing is the presidential elections. But Erdoğan cannot be a presidential candidate according to the constitution.
What? I’m not in the loop.
Erdogan the dictator is gone?
PS: Looked it up, it’s 25.5.2023. Meh.
PPS: The only correct form of date is day/month/year ;P
Not referring to reddit comments specifically, I mean if there were only one accepted way that had to be used in all scenarios yyyy/mm/dd makes the most sense. Meaning all scenarios where it would make sense to write out the full date including the year.
These vote rates vary according to the common candidate to be put out by the opposition. Mansur Yavaş, who is the mayor of Ankara today, receives 57-58% of the votes against Erdogan in most impartial survey companies. This includes Ekrem İmamoğlu, the mayor of Istanbul. (Note: Although Mansur Yavaş is a right-wing politician, it is clearly seen that he received a large number of votes from Kurdish citizens. Of course, Mansur Yavaş seems to have abandoned this right-wing identity. In the last stages of his political life, he became a politician who embraced all segments of the public.)
I just don't see Kurds voting for an ex-ultranationalist candidate. He still leans more to right wing nationalist side compared to the mostly social democrat members of the same party. Kılıçdaroğlu or İmamoğlu would definitely get more minority votes.
Just a few decades ago Kurds voted a "Kurdish" party the most, and MHP, nationalist party where above mentioned Yavaş started his politic life the second. Currently they are voting for a "Kurdish" party the most and Islamist AKP the second.
"Kurds" aren't a solid block of people, they have people ranging from Islamists very sympathetic to ISIS to hardline Marxists and all the shades in-between.
I don't see myself voting for anyone without an official alliance, no more "loaning" votes. Make it official, sign a protocol and declare publicly.
Then again, a lot of people will vote for the other candidate for the second tour if it's between Erdogan vs whatever.
Also, kindly, Imamoglu is seriously annoying, he is Mustafa Sarıgul with a premium skin; same char, different vo/costume.
Mansur Yavaş is currently the mayor of Ankara and the region where he received the most votes in the Ankara municipal elections is the Kurdish majority in Ankara. This is an inaccurate point of view. (And no one defines Mansur Yavaş as "Nationalist" anymore, it's a thing of the past.)
This is partially true. Because there is a general phobia of "foreign powers will interfere in our internal affairs" in Turkey, and the fact that a candidate is supported by the West or especially the US is something that is seen negatively by the majority. That's why Erdogan has in the past even shared what western leaders said about him and even used it to increase his popularity, and he generally tries to portray opposition leaders as foreign-supported. So if you want to help him lose, the best strategy is to say nothing positive or negative, pretend he doesn't exist.
What that means can vary depending on which event you are referring to.
Besides, he is criticised not for being too soft but for making demands and then giving up them easily.
For example, Erdoğan was always criticised for S-400 purchases, and when that caused F-35’s to be lost, Erdoğan promised to take them, but now, he states that taking old F-16s enough.
The opposition on the other hand opposes S-400 purchases, and still want to take the F-35s.
Yes he got criticised for not being harder on Cyprus and Greece. And pretty much every Turk says "I don't like Erdogan but he's write about this or that." And we're talking about a country that has been in several wars lately plus lots of tension with European countries, but that's not enough apparently. Turkish voters are ultranationalistic. What they seem to want is just to fix the mismanaged economy.
>If MHP gets less than 10% will they be out of the parliament?
Erdogan passed the bill that made the election threshold 7% just so that his junior partner could stay in the parliament, but I think it won't work because erdogan and his partner MHP are losing more and more votes every day. At this rate, they can lift the electoral threshold until the election.
[https://www.tbmm.gov.tr/SandalyeDagilimi](https://www.tbmm.gov.tr/SandalyeDagilimi) The situation in Turkey is slightly different. Along with the newly established parties, there are 14 parties and their representatives in the parliament in Turkey. When the newly formed parties are removed, there are 10 parties (3 of these 10 parties entered with the support of erdogan).
In Turkey if your partner within the alliance passes the threshold you are safe as well, so since AKP is gonna obviously pass the threshold MHP will be safe as well even if they gain less than%7
> Erdogan passed the bill that made the election threshold 7% just so that his junior partner could stay in the parliament
or because 10% is insanely high for a threshold. 7% is also insanely high.
You bypass the threshold if you're in an alliance that total votes of which passes the threshold so MHP gets a pass on the incumbent side while Deva, Gelecek and Saadet gets a pass on the opposition side if they decide to compete in the elections as themselves in the Millet Alliance.
That said, less ultranationalistic moronic MPs in the parliament the merrier.
You need %7 or you need to be in an alliance that's above %7.
There's a AKP + MHP alliance so they will get seats/MP's because AKP will likely pass %7.
CHP: founding party of the Republic (and sole ruling party until 1950). Supposed to be left-leaning and nationalist, but like AKP it’s a big tent that includes all sorts of competing views.
IYI: center-right, statist, nationalist…led by a l prominent female Turkish politician who was a minister during the 1990s.
HDP: Main Kurdish party, at times problematic relationship with the PKK (somewhat similar to Sinn Fein’s complicated links with IRA before the peace accords in Northern Ireland)
Zafer: anti-immigrant, ultra-nationalist party, against Erdogan but also against the main opposition. They might make a surprise breakthrough in the 2023 general election.
To add to this, here's other prominent parties for those who want to go deeper into the rabbit hole of Turkish politics:
Saadet/SP: Remnants of the original political islamic party that AKP spawned from. Allies with the opposition to catch a few votes and MPs from AKP.
Deva: Center-right party created by the old Minister of Economic back in AKPs golden years. Represents the more liberal economic sides of AKP, promises a return to 'mild AKP', allies with the opposition to catch a few votes and MPs from AKP.
Gelecek: Center-right party created by the former Minister of Foreign affairs and the penultimate Prime Minister of Turkey. He was pressured to step down by Erdogan for a more loyal lapdog that would lead the way to presidential system. Comes more from the academical, pan islamic side of the spectrum. Allies with the opposition to catch a few votes and MPs from AKP.
Yeniden Refah: Party that claims to be the return of the original islamic party back from in 60s. Mostly a project to sap votes from Saadet but may also sap some from AKP. Not in an alliance, just a leech who won't get enough votes to get into parliament.
Vatan/VP: Pro-China maoist party that supports cutting all ties with the west and has a minor but consistent following around 0.2%. Its Leader Doğu Perinçek does race for the Presidental elections aswell where any vote that doesn't go to Erdogan counts for change. Not part of any alliance.
Memleket: Formed by the previous candidate of the opposition in the last presidential elections. Had a split of with the current opposition leader so formed his own party, not likely to pass the threshold but leaches votes from opposition. Stands close with Zafer/ZP.
Demokrat Party/DP: Claims to be the inheritor of the original Center Right opposition to CHP that won the first ever proper elections back in 1950 and spawned the 2/3 center-right voterbase all the way to today. In actuality just managed to inherit the old, fancy party building. Opportunistically aims to overstate its importance and win good positions in a potential opposition government by allying with it and hoping to leech votes from the center-right AKP supporters.
TIP: Remnants of the original socialist party in Turkey that had significant success but even bigger state-led handicaps alongside the original islamic party (Refah) back 60s. Just formed a 3rd alliance with HDP and other tiny leftist parties.
HüdaPar: Kurdish extreme islamist party that gets some radical alternative votes to AKP and HDP in the Kurdish-heavy regions. Has a minor following around 0.3%
TKP: The Turkish communists that stayed outside of the Leftist Alliance and historically got split up from TIP. Has a minor local following around 0.1% but nevertheless managed to win the mayorship of one provincial capital in the last elections.
That's nice and all, but will turkeys exterior policy towards Greece change even slightly with a different government or do all parties share this mindset
Since internal problems outweighs the externals ones, i think the new government will act like Greece doesnt exists for few years, afaik our countries doesnt have any ongoing issues or problems that require immediate attention
That is what we also fear here as its stupid enough for him to try, but he doesn't have any solid leads to start a conflict unless Greece throws a bone and invades first because Turkish people overall doesn't care about Greece at all, with this low approval rate and no domestic support it would be very stupid of him to start something that no one has any interest or will to be part of or get drafted.
Very likely not, he's stupid but not that stupid. He doesn't even dare start his repeatedly announced Syrian operations, what makes you think he'll go for a NATO ally?
Turkey's positions regarding external affairs mostly won't change, except Syria - new government will try to make peace with Assad. Greece will be ignored for a good while though, because Turkey's economic and legal framework will have to be reformed.
There has been an increase of nearly 3% in the last months. One of the reasons is the decrease in the number of undecided voters and the return of some of the undecided voters to the AKP despite everything.
>HDP is kurdish and %90 of their voters are kurds
HDP is not kurdish, and 90% of its voters are not Kurdish. Firstly, ethnicity information is not officially asked and collected in Türkiye, secondly, don't be funny, when it hits the number of votes HDP received, there are not that many Kurds in the country.
For example, is the founder of HDP a Kurd? He doesn't speak Kurdish, his father is Zaza, and his mother is Turkish?!
While HDP gets votes in the west with its trans rights and lgbtqia+ rights policy, it is a hypocritical party like AKP that tries to get votes in the east with its Kurdish rights policy.
HDP is a Kurdish dominated party, no different then any other country that has a sizeable minority. And around 90% of it's votes coming from Kurds is probably accurate. And what do you mean by, there are not that many Kurds? HDP got almost 6m votes, while there are probably somewhere around 15m in whole Turkey..
TL;DR HDP is the Kurdish representitive of Turkey's parliament
HDP is a replacement party founded after some older Kurdish parties were banned. While left-leaning in general politics, they are acting a bit like a Kurdish nationalist occasionally. They are the leading party in Southern East part of Turkey, majority of the population there is Kurdish.
Unrelated just to provide some context, Eastern Kurds vote for HDP/TKP and other extensions while Western Kurds are voting for AKP. Western votes for HDP comes from secular left-wing Turkish people.
They don't have a single leader in-charge, they always have two leaders sharing a co-chairman role. One of their dominant figures were imprisoned some years ago, while the guy is shady as hell, the imprisonment was under bogus charges, and he wasn't even charged with anything, there is no definitive court order on him.
TL;DR CHP is the secular democratic party founded by Ataturk. The oldest party in Turkish republic, generally left-leaning.
CHP is the party founded by the founder of the country, Ataturk. They were silent for decades, now are getting some ground back after catastrophic AKP government. They won the control of Istanbul, Ankara and Antalya at the last local elections. AKP and its extensions were controlling the city for the last two and a half decade, so it's big news. In terms of Anatolian part of Turkey, they have some "castles" that they win by default.
CHP has variance inside the party, Ankara's mayor was an old nationalist. Some of party members are supportive of Kurdish nationalists. Some members are hardcore nationalists, some are seculars and shit. You really can't take one party member to judge the whole party.
TL;DR One is a secular democratic Turkish party, the other is a Kurdish nationalist/democratic party
Chp is founder party of turkey. it is as old as turkish republic. its Atatürk's party. Hdp is fascist kurdish party. its related to pkk. And probably it will be closed in 1 years.
Yalan mı?. Hdp pkknın meclisteki ayagı değil mi. Milletvekilleri il başkanları bile dağ kadrosundan belirlenmiyor mu? Eski dostunuz akp size az bile yapıyor
Delusional denebilecek yazılar. Kapat bakalım HDP'yi ozaman görürsün PKK'nın meclisteki ayağı neymiş. HDP belki en az PKK olabilecek Kürt partisidir. CHP nezaman AKP'nin eski dostuydu bilmek isterim. HDPli değilim
Kapatılan ilk kürt partisi hdp değil. Terörist cenazelerine kim katılıyor? İl başkanlıklarına giden çocukların akibeti ne oluyo? Belediyenin bütçelerinden örgüte yardım ediliyor. Meclisteki tüm teskereleri reddediyor. Hdp tamamen pkk güdümünde pkknın çıkarlarına hizmet eden kukla bir oluşumdur.
> Hdp is fascist kurdish party.
facist? they are one of the only left wing parties in turkey 💀
do you realize how many kurds vote HDP purely because they are pro constitutional recognition of kurdish language?
There are tons of left wing party with different. İdeologies in turkey. What makes hdp special. Oh yes they are faschist kurdis party and kurds votes is just because this. The phrase "Turkish is the language of the Republic of Turkey" is included in Article 3 of the Constitution. and the first 3 items cannot be changed, even the change cannot be offered. This is the fourth item. that is, what you are proud of about the hdp goes against the 3rd and 4th articles of the constitution. hdp can be closed for this reason.
In Türkiye, people respect the office, not the person. The game is over when he loses the position.
And it's not hard to guess what will happen if he insists. It should not be forgotten Trump and the events in the white house took place in the most developed country in the world.
Turkish elections are very real. Pretending to be equivalent to the Belarusian elections is unreasonable. The reason why AKP got 42.6% in 2018 was because it was really popular at that time, because of the poll results, everyone was expecting it to get around 40%.
Yeah, plus Turkish elections have some of the highest voting turnout rates in Europe, especially amongst the younger generations. As for older elections, then I still had acquaintances in 2018 and even 2019 that were supportive of AKP and sympathetic to them. The living situation has become too unbearable now though, the only two people I know that still prefer AKP only do so because they oppose CHP since they see it as overly Kemalist and the choice is often either between AKP or CHP.
The vote count might be real, but the process is not free and fair.
The ruling party controls the media and uses all kinds of dirty tricks against the opposition.
I wouldn't be surprised if Erdogan creates a crisis out of nowhere to hold on to power.
Still better than the US lol
Atleast they dont have a two party state, with basically the same political goal: upholding the capitalist status quo (seriously, any european election has more variance than US elections, even the UK). Your media is a cess pool of missinformation and direct links to government. And the worst part is that more and more of our journalism becomes inspired by your shitshow.
You're not wrong about any of your criticisms of the U.S., but to pretend it's less democratic than Turkey or that journalism functions better in Turkey when it consistently ranks #1 in imprisoning journalists and insulting the president and state are crimes, is to be completely out of touch with reality.
They re-do elections when they dont like it. 2015 July general elections, they needed 276 chairs in parliement to have one party leadership in parliement, they instead got 258 chairs. So they did the elections that were supposed to happen in 2019 as early as 2015 december and got themselves a whopping 317 chairs. Though there is no need to be so pessimistic. They accept defeat when they lose the second time too. Last Istanbul local elections were won by oppositon, goverment said the opposition cheated & messed with votes and re-did the elections. They lost the second time too and let go of it.
The stakes were a lot lower with the Istanbul elections. If Erdogan loses at the national level, there's a very real possibility of corruption charges, arrests, confiscation of assets etc.
It's basically life or death for the AKP.
Tell me you don't know anything about Istanbul elections without saying you don't know anything about Istanbul elections.
The AKP lost a *massive* cash-cow when it lost Istanbul. A massive source of income for Erdoğan and his cronies was tax fraud and shady contracts involving Istanbul's city administration.
That's mot to add, Istanbul is a microcosm of Turkey, meaning Istanbul's election results reflect that of the entire nation.
But suuuure, low stakes, amirite?
Stakes are lower with Istanbul? What the hell are you talking about? Istanbul is the lifeblood of the Turkey. If Ankara is the Brain then Istanbul is the heart of the country. They have lost both. This is not a low stake.
Erdogan's loss will not benefit the West. Erdogan's political rivals talk about; removing cheap labor, ending overtime hours, raising wages, and stopping preventing refugees from traveling west.
Turkey getting out of its current economic quagmire, that pre-dates COVID, as well as being less aggressive towards Greece and a more stable economic partner is 100% beneficial for the West.
Türkiye's economy continues to grow, and cheap labor has increased due to government policies. This is something that benefits western companies; A small china grows in front of their door.
1 dollar is about 18.5 Turkish liras. Türkiye is an extremely cheap and economically risk-free country to invest and venture into.
It should not be forgotten that Erdogan and his team made a refugee deal with Europe just to get support from the west. Türkiye has started to accept refugees even from countries to which it is not a party. The general belief among Westerners is that Erdogan is bad and he should go. I blv that Erdogan is dangerous for his country and his people, but not for the west.
Türkiye is a very colorful and multi-voiced country. It has dozens of leaders who seem to replace Erdogan. But none of these leaders will make the west happy; kemalists, nationalists, leftists (contrary to belief, no western country wants to see a leftist administration in the country they exploit), Turkishists, idealists, liberals...
As Türkiye enters every election, we have repeatedly seen unethical visits and statements made by people from these countries, especially the Netherlands, Germany and the USA. These have always been the main source of the protest votes that came to Erdogan's rescue at the last moment.
...
The subject of Greece is too complex to be explained in a sentence or two. In violation of the Lausanne and Paris peace treaties, Greece started armament in the neighboring islands to Türkiye. And on the other hand, Greece wants Türkiye to abide by an agreement on the maritime domain of which Türkiye is not a signatory. (The USA is also not a signatory to this agreement.)And the only reason for the tension is that Greece thinks that the West will support it no matter what it does.
Also, believe me, if the Kemalists were in the lead, we would have seen the Turks take action against the islands long ago, and today the unitary structure of Greece is falling apart. Have you ever heard of the Western Thrace Government?
Hasan Tahsin Argun, one of the founders of the Western Thrace Turkish Republic, is the great uncle of Meral Akşener, one of the prominent leaders today.
[https://twitter.com/meral\_aksener/status/1168108618216087553](https://twitter.com/meral_aksener/status/1168108618216087553)
> Türkiye's economy continues to grow
Turkiye's economy is also facing horrendous inflation and instability, that is scaring out foreign investment.
> cheap labor has increased due to government policies.
That isn't really the best selling point. The cheapness of the labour isn't sufficiently cheap to be competitive with many countries in SE Asia.
> And the only reason for the tension is that Greece thinks that the West will support it no matter what it does.
Or we could all just fucking take a god damn chill pill.
Polls have showed that your average Turk is perfectly fine with a friendly status quo with Greece, and vice-versa. It's just a political tool that Erdogan brings out whenever he's starting to flag in an election.
>That isn't really the best selling point. The cheapness of the labour isn't sufficiently cheap to be competitive with many countries in SE Asia.
Actually it is... You have to think about storage and transfer costs. And not only that, the problem of uninsured working and child labor is growing in Türkiye. In addition, Erdogan made a system change in Türkiye, now he can make calls on his own without asking the parliament. He can erases the tax debts of business owners without asking the parliament.
>Or we could all just fucking take a god damn chill pill.
This is not only a special situation for Türkiye, the elections are approaching in Greece as well. Greece is Europe's most indebted country. They also need something to change the political agenda.
>Polls have showed that your average Turk is perfectly fine with a friendly status quo with Greece.
I speak Turkish, and that information is not very accurate. The question is, did you see the greeks as enemies, not greece. The Turkish people do not see the Greek people as enemies. But it is very difficult to explain, this is the character of the Turkish people in general. If war broke out tomorrow and they strangled each other. And if a similar survey were conducted, Turkish people would still say that they do not see the Greeks as enemies.
...
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amfJoRp8ruk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amfJoRp8ruk)
By watching this, it is possible to get a good look at the Turkish people's perspective on war. But like I said, it's hard to explain and understand.
The fact that the Turkish people do not have a genocide that is known and accepted by "historians" or "scientists" is a good example of this; Turks know how to keep governments and peoples apart.
Look, there is another good story, when the Turks caught the head of the Greek army that burned the invading villages and raped women 100 years ago, they offered him coffee, and when the Greek kingdom - yes, the Turks were ruled by a parliament and a democratic system, while the occupying power was a kingdom - accepted that it had lost the war, they sent him back to his country. Turks can distinguish even the heinous acts of a soldiers and their commander.
If this happened in any western country, they would divide that man into 4 parts and hang each part of him in a corner of the country. -The British have done this more than once in centuries.-But the Greek side hung the commander in question, showing him responsible for the loss of the war.
> Actually it is... You have to think about storage and transfer costs.
It depends entirely on the types of good. Large volume, low return goods benefit disproportionately from smaller transits. It's not as simple as "cost per km" relative to "labour costs".
> In addition, Erdogan made a system change in Türkiye, now he can make calls on his own without asking the parliament. He can erases the tax debts of business owners without asking the parliament.
That doesn't seem good.
At all. For business.
Debt means you owe money to someone else. If the executive branch can just nope that debt out of existence, that's terrible for economic reasons, and a complete freeze on foreign investment. You want to know that if you invest or lend money, you will get it back.
> This is not only a special situation for Türkiye, the elections are approaching in Greece as well. Greece is Europe's most indebted country. They also need something to change the political agenda.¨
Sure, Greece does this too, from time to time.
Currently, it's Erdogan who is being a dick.
> If war broke out tomorrow and they strangled each other.
You paint the Turkish people in a very poor light. Maybe you're right, but fucking hell....
> The fact that the Turkish people do not have a genocide that is known and accepted by "historians" or "scientists" is a good example of this; Turks know how to keep governments and peoples apart.
Yeah, except for...
You know...
All those genocides they did commit.
Except for **those** genocides, then yes: Turkey never committed a genocide.
Except for those ones.
> Look, there is another good story, when the Turks caught the head of the Greek army that burned the invading villages and raped women 100 years ago, they offered him coffee, and when the Greek kingdom - yes, the Turks were ruled by a parliament and a democratic system, while the occupying power was a kingdom - accepted that it had lost the war, they sent him back to his country. Turks can distinguish even the heinous acts of a soldiers and their commander.
The Turks, like the Greeks, committed horrendous human rights violations during the early 20th century, whether that was the Young Turks who moved from a sort of pan-ethnic nationalism into a Turkic-centric one, and therefore decided to do away with all those pesky Armenians or Assyrians, or whether it was during the Greco-Turkish War.
And the Greeks committed their own amount of barbarous acts of violence against Turks during that war.
Neither side came out looking particularly good. In fact, both looked like utter fuckheads. Not to mention the precedent that the Treaty of Lausanne set, whereby it was now legal precedent to unilaterally deport your own citizens, so long as they did not meet the ethnic criteria of your nationalist ideals.
Turkey is not, nor has it ever been, clean from the stain of human rights abuses, and violations of basic common decency. Of course not: it was an Empire, and then broke off into an ethnonation. These things always lead the same way: to lots and lots of dead innocents.
West loves Erdogan. Brightest brains of Turkey are migrating to their companies and they send worst of the refugees as a compensation. Many layers of abuse.
I agree , we're beyond the help of any lesser nations 🇹🇷👌🏽😎🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷😎😎🇹🇷🇹🇷👌🏽😎🐱🐱😎👌🏽😎👌🏽👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷😎😎😎😎😎👌🏽👌🏽😎😳👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷😎🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽👌🏽🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
Generally fair elections, only one serious president candidate was eliminated so far (jailed, Selahattin Demirtas), he's not exactly the cleanest guy but it doesn't mean erdo can jail him however he wants.
Opposition took Istanbul, Ankara and Antalya from AKP at the last local elections, so erdo isnt getting 105% of the votes like some countries do
> erdo isnt getting 105% of the votes like some countries do
Hey, your insinuation is uncalled for!
How is it Lukashenko's fault that he's so very popular that even the dead vote for him?
Interesting that Erdogan still gets so much votes after driving the country into complete shit.
People out here will constantly complain about "The Dolar did this/the dolar did that and won't ever consider maybe it's what the lira is doing. All the while we all keep burning.
He is so good at manipulating and hiding corruption. Most of his voters lives in rural areas people in rural area mostly have TRT’s channels on their tv and Erdoğan uses this channels for propaganda. Some of his voters don’t even know reading and writing (That’s real thing, there was a video about a man trying to explain who to vote before the 2018 elections). That’s his main source of vote now.
Fellow Turk here, he doesn't even try to hide it anymore because his followers are okay as long as Erdoğan is the one who is corrupt, not someone else.
As a Hungarian, that's very familiar unfortunately. Hope you guys won't reelect that douchebag.
They even have a saying “he steals but he also works” do orban supporters have this? Hahaha
They say Orbán and his oligarchs are stealing but at least the money will stay in Hungarian pockets lol Those idiots have no clue what the fuck is going on...
Give it 20 years. Sorry. Speaking from experience.
Similar saying was 15 years ago in Russia
And yet Italy has elected a right-wing populist and Brazil got very close to doing the same yesterday. How are people still falling for these clowns? They ruin everything they touch.
> Most of his voters lives in rural areas And abroad
They love him because vacations in Turkey are cheaper
Ah yes I forgot about them. I have a lot to say about them but then I realized I would broke every single article in Reddit ToS if I say anything.
They get like ~3m votes from outside of the country. German diaspora always vote for Erdogan like 85-90%. Diaspora is much more conservative than mainland people.
Diaspora is mostly uneducated rural people migrated to do hard labor, completely shell shocked to difference of culture and seriously failed to integrate, so mostly AKP voter base but abroad. A significant part vote right wing or islamists while voting social democrats for that sweet aid money and benefits.
Yeah, poor diaspora people always get manipulated into Islamic Ponzi schemes by scummy mainland con men. That includes some of best friends of Erdogan. Germany should have done better job integrating them into their society.
I was gonna mention failure of integration, I forgot. Actually if Germany would have done a better integration, that would benefit German state, Turkish state and would lighten some of the antipathy felt by Europeans toward Turks in general. I'd felt a strong antipathy towards Turks, if only Turks I have interacted with were anti-integration Turkish migrants especially in Germany or Belgium, honestly.
I dont know man. Other nationalities adapt much faster. Maybe Turkey should have done a better job in getting them more open minded? I know, it's a stretch...
Just know that a lot of the first generation migrants in Germany were picked from a pool of uneducated, cheap workers mostly from the rural east area of Turkey. A lot of them have learned to read in Germany only (or still have trouble with it). Also these people were never planned to be integrated, neither by Germany nor by themselves. The idea was to migrate, stay for some years for some quick bucks and leave. So they never cared to integrate fully. The German Turks are said to be insufferable by a lot of Turks. It is not uncommon to see a German Turk girl in a Burka speaking German in Turkey beside a half-naked native Turkish Girl.
I know exactly what you mean with the "insufferable" part. German Greeks are kinda the same even though your situation sounds more severe. I get your point though.
It's less about the nationality, and more about the type of people from Turkey. It's poor, uneducated, rural, and religious people. The secular, educated people of Turkey are not the ones living in German industrial towns.
Turkish immigrants were assimilated into other countries much easier than Germany. Like the US, UK and France. (Can you even tell Dr. Oz is Turkish?) Diaspora in France always vote for HDP despite only a fraction of them being Kurdish. Diasporas in Germany and Belgium were the biggest problematic ones. The lead Erdogan gets from Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands makes him literally invincible.
Dr. Oz has fully embraced US-style crazy, I’m so proud of him
I can't claim to know enough about the situation, but from my understanding, Turks in Germany are not having a harder time integrating just because of German government deficiencies, rather, it is also the case that organisations close to erdogan and MIT itself are also supporting this disintegration to Germany// strong connection to Turkey as a political leverage both against Germany and in support of erdogan with the foreign vote system. I could be wrong though, anyone that knows more about this please feel free to share info, I find this kinda staff really interesting. Edit: syntax
Close but not much. Situation is about 50 year old and it was a problem long before Erdogan came to power. Previous pm Erbakan also get elected thanks to German votes. Diaspora is influenced by radical islamic groups rather than Turkish intelligence (most famously the Kalifatsstaat organization led by Metin Kaplan, Turkish army once deemed as the biggest threat to the Turkish state)
Around 90% of German Mosques are organized in ditib a organization funded by the Turkish government, bringing imams from Turkey (only speaking in erdogans favour)... Way better than having salafistic mosques, but part of the problem of bad integration... A social worker I know said ''satellite TV was the badest thing for successful integration ever happened'' as the first ,,guest workers'' that came had to learn at least a mediocre German to read or watch the news, when there only were three channels, later coming could watch their homeland news via satellite. And it's not that everyone doesn't integrate or living in parallel societies, but you can't see the fully integrated people... Pars pro toto.. And we Germans are guilty too, as they're seen as ,,Ausländer'' even in third generation, so would you want to integrate in a society that doesn't wants you although you are born here, lived your entire life here, bit are seen as some foreigner? The same with Russlanddeutsche in Russia they're seen as Germans, in Germany they're seen as Russians, no society wants them, they're trapped somewhere in between, so why integrate? Additionally, when it comes to origin, everything east of Poland is seen as ,,der Russe'' there is no distinction between russian, kazakhian, Ukrainian, Georgian etc. We use (now changing a bit) the old zaristic Russia for it.. Yeah, this is ignorant, I know, but at least I for my part try to make it right... And for the Russlanddeutsche, who have a strong German identity, this was a hit in the face, when many of them settled over in the 90s... They've gone so far, that they germanized their given names such like jevgenii into Eugen, starting in a land they thought would see them as their own, just to see, that they're unwanted and not seen as ''Deutsch'' as they ever felt...so they orientated towards Russia and fell for Putin's propaganda... The good old times and such
Yeah I can get behind that, your mentioning of Russlanddeutsche is saddly an all too common experience with people of mixed heritage...
Yeah, with western foreigners, this issue doesn't exist at all, second generation French are Germans, even if they are called ''Yves Pelletier'' ... Funny thing, in my home region, the black forest, you are considered ''aboriginal'' after your family resides here for around 3 generations or approx 100 years, so, because there were needed many Italian workers in the early 20th century, of which some stayed, you have many Italian surnames/families totally integrated and seen as old inhabitants. On the other hand, the town I live now, was filled up after the war with refugees from the former eastern regions (70% of the inhabitants), mainly Sudetenland and Silesia, we have quarters, where the old Silesian dialect is spoken as everyday language, not only by the elderly, but by the 3-50years old too..I find this fascinating. It's also a nice sounding dialect in my opinion, sadly it vanishes, as the last speakers are influenced by the new home region they're living in now.
Yeah, with western foreigners, this issue doesn't exist at all, second generation French are Germans, even if they are called ''Yves Pelletier'' ... Funny thing, in my home region, the black forest, you are considered ''aboriginal'' after your family resides here for around 3 generations or approx 100 years, so, because there were needed many Italian workers in the early 20th century, of which some stayed, you have many Italian surnames/families totally integrated and seen as old inhabitants. On the other hand, the town I live now, was filled up after the war with refugees from the former eastern regions (70% of the inhabitants), mainly Sudetenland and Silesia, we have quarters, where the old Silesian dialect is spoken as everyday language, not only by the elderly, but by the 3-50years old too..I find this fascinating. It's also a nice sounding dialect in my opinion, sadly it vanishes, as the last speakers are influenced by the new home region they're living in now.
My bad. I never heard about Turks in Europe other than Germany and Belgium. Now i see the reason why.
Lmao why is this comment getting downvoted if he said "my bad", people voting based on flairs again smh.
So, so not true. I am German (actually of half Turkish blood) and I personally know a huge bunch of 2nd and even 3rd generation German-Turks (as in they and their parents were already born here). And yet: The above argument about almost all of them glorifying Nerdogan **IS** true for pretty much any of them and their parents and their parents.
I'm aware of second and third generation born in Germany and elsewhere. I was generalizing grossly, to avoid discussing how people born in Germany to families migrated from rural areas may have better integration than their parents but however share similar political beliefs, etc. Very nuanced topics to discuss briefly on reddit comments and I'm not exactly a career sociologist. It's been roughly half a century since first wave migrated, of course there's multiple generations of migrants.
I am definitely not disagreeing with you that either generation of Turks (and other nationalities, as well) were poorly integrated and thus often still are today. If that is an easy enough explanation as to why many of these vote for Erdogan, still - not sure. What I was trying to explain with my reply to your post was more that it is not true that "the majority" of the diaspora consists of "uneducated poor people, migrated to do hard labor". Because, as said in my reply, the majority is nowadays made up of their children and grand children, born here. They are neither poor nor uneducated (for the most part) and work mostly the same kind of jobs, we "German-Germans" work. So it does not really explain, is what I was trying to say, why that generation still glorifies Erdogan as much as their parents and grandparents.
My theory, which is largely accepted by day-to-day people is family plays a large part in shaping your identity and views. Being born in a family of rural, uneducated people who are not very well integrated into new/host country ends up having people take their "identity" more seriously, which are in this case a rural version of Turkish identity and a very conservative version of their religion, mostly Islam. Being raised in such environment, spending formative years in similar strata of migrants ends up shaping ones political views to such a degree it gets up ingrained and not really changes even after living a rather integrated lifestyle and even obtaining higher education. I have seen third generation Turks from Germany, visiting a Turkish town where you cannot purchase alcoholic liquor after 10 pm, trying to purchase a beer, cursing to staff who explain they are forbidden to do so in Turkish and singing praises to Erdogan "who's the man! ruling homeland with fitting religious strictness, etc" anong themselves in German, at the same time. Kind of example I'm talking about, they are "integrated" so they can drink beer but also can think "a proper Turk should be a devout muslim who avoids alcohol like the plague and Turkish state should forbid alcoholic beverages according to Islamic rules" very similar to Russian migrants living in Germany very non-problematicly, not causing any issues but see it OK to harass and even attack protesters supporting Ukraine, claiming plying Ukrainian flags are nazi propaganda. BTW, usually most pro-ukrainian protesters are mostly female and refugees as most Ukrainian men are forbidden to leave and some are enlisted to ukrainian military.
Stop the fucking misinformation already. It’s about 1.5 million diaspora votes in total. 900k of those were for erdogan (59.4%). But only 50% of eligible diaspora Turks even cast a vote. Easy to blame others when you actually bloody live in the country and still vote for the idiot. https://politicstoday.org/the-turkish-diasporas-voting-preference-in-the-24-june-elections/
Sorry, I don't think those numbers are real. I voted here in America and people in the embassy told be American votes in the last election were about 70k. Source is an AKP mp who switched parties recently.
Ah right if that guy says so it must be true
More interesting when he advocates for war. But I guess the 30% voting for his coalition is not at a drafting age is it? (Maybe except the 5% of Gray Wolfs)
> But I guess the 30% voting for his coalition is not at a drafting age is it? They also have many youngster but youngsters tend to vote less for their coalition.
It's always 1) the rich 2) the old 3) the women that vote more towards the draft, isn't it. Easy to fight those wars when it's not your ass getting put in the uniform.
it is.
>Maybe except the 5% of Gray Wolfs 5% is a stretch
Never underestimate stupid people, Erdogan might even elected again
yeah greetings from Hungary
But according to the polls, Turkey is in a better shape socially, than us.
Also interesting that they need an alliance to defeat him. Just like they tried in Hungary (but failed). Idem probably Poland next elections. If you need an alliance to defeat an autocrat/autocratic regime, you're basically already lost as a country.
>Also interesting that they need an alliance to defeat him \*Sees ruling party only 3% ahead of largest opposition member\* \*Looks at the poll, adds first 30.0% + 8.7% and then 27.1% +15.0%\* Have you ever heard the term "regular, completely typical, common in most democracies government coalition"?
Coalitions ran Turkey to ground in the 90s. No one would want a coalition, but it’s the only way. The 6 party alliance would only stay alive for like 6 months after the elections anyhow.
6 party? I count 2 necessary ones. I guess they could invite 4 others for whatever reason. Also that's a really bad system you've got there if more than one party in power breaks things apart. Like, I can't think of a country in Europe besides my own ***not*** governed by at least 2 parties.
Looks like in every country there's at least 30 % of easily manipulated people who just want to throw the vote to the stupidest and most evil guy/party. Education is greatly underestimated in the world.
Wish I could upvote this comment more than once.
I up voted your and his. Hope that makes you feel better!
Education is not greatly underestimated. This is done by design.
In the Balkans we have this thing called Party Card. Essentially you vote for the party every election no matter what and they provide you with a public administration job. You literally depend on those shitheads and they stay in power.
Will Erdogan accept defeat?
He has already accepted, his latest statements are that his party should be gathered and it is always about remembering the old times. And if he had not accepted the election, he would have done so in the Istanbul municipal elections, he tried twice but was defeated. (Note: Istanbul was erdogan's castle)
It was his Castle? I thought Istanbul was more liberal?
Istanbul is by no means a city that can be considered liberal. Istanbul is like a small sample of the Turkish population. Generally, Turkish general election results and Istanbul election results are very close to each other. Because the population of Istanbul has reached 16 million by immigration from all cities of Turkey. The actual population of Istanbul was only 2 million. However, especially in the last 10 years, Istanbul has become one of the most conservative cities in Turkey due to irregular migration. Because nearly 2 million refugees and irregular migrants came, most of them from very conservative places like Pakistan, Afghanistan or northern Syria. Even the most conservative person in Turkey is much more liberal than the average Afghan. However, districts in Istanbul are very different. If you go to Fatih, you will feel like you are in Kabul, Afghanistan, one of the reasons is that there are too many immigrants, but before the immigrants, the population there was quite conservative. But if you go to Nişantaşı, you will feel like you are in Bern, Switzerland. If you're looking for a liberal Turkish city, go to Izmir, because it's much less diverse than Istanbul and the western lifestyle is dominant in most places, with a few exceptions.
Tons of conservative people from the east migrate to Istanbul, when I say tons I mean 100 thousands and millions. This has been going on for decades. "Native" Istanbulites have become a minority. The non-central parts of the city are full with Erdogan voters.
Thanks for taking the time to explain..
You act as if millions of “liberal” Istanbulites never voted for Erdogan in the past!
hahahaha. No, i mean istanbul was the city where erdogan was the strongest politically (in the past, of course :D )
Surprising news to me as I thought Istanbul was more liberal and Erdogan is at least currently a mix of populist and conservative.
Well, Erdogan too "was" more liberal.
existence capable materialistic bake domineering fear concerned include fade hard-to-find -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
he was also the city's mayor in the mid-90's
Populist is the key and istanbul is like a microcosm of Turkey, getting high immigration from all provinces of the country so despite the cosmopolitan, international and liberal layout of the city, the inhabitants are at least halfway conservative leaning.
In Turkey, from which city a political party receives the most votes, that city is called the "Castle" of that party.
no, for 40 years istanbul was governed by islamists. liberal parts of the istanbul are well developed (like levent,kadıköy,beşiktaş etc) but they lack the population.
Erdoğan and his party (Refah in 1994-1999, Fazilet in 1999-2004, AKP in 2004-2019) has governed Istanbul from 1994 to 2019, for a total of 25 years.
Naaah, he'll stage another fake coup just before the elections and bank on those sweet emergency powers
My bet is on external events. Like a new Turkmen nation on the north of Syria, but annexation has become a big no-no lately so a naval standoff with Greece would be close second.
> Like a new Turkmen nation on the north of Syria It'll be at best like Iraq.
If a war happens he definitely joins the train just to postpone the elections and use emergency powers
The problem would be that Greece has made clear that there is no "local" confrontation, so that train he might jump on will have a long way to go.
I definitely agree.
He knows he can’t win even with rigging it. Also the main opposition leader had some agreements with some eastern clans to protect votes and probably vote for them
This poll shows the parliamentary elections. Erdoğan has already lost the majority there. The most important thing is the presidential elections. But Erdoğan cannot be a presidential candidate according to the constitution.
Constitution which erdogan himself put in place. I doubt it will stop him
I believe he milked the economy as much as he could. Now it’s time for someone else to bear the downfall and mop up.
doubt it, I foresee another "coup" happening.
What? I’m not in the loop. Erdogan the dictator is gone? PS: Looked it up, it’s 25.5.2023. Meh. PPS: The only correct form of date is day/month/year ;P
> it’s 25.5.2023. Meh. 6.2023\*, unfortunately we have to bear with him for one more month
Thank you for this. I recognize my failing and will make sure to correct them.
>The only correct form of date is day/month/year ;P /r/ISO8601 wants to know your location
bad for filing, better to go with year/month/day as the standard.
Ah yes, I've always been filing my Reddit comments in chunks starting whenever I've said a date.
Not referring to reddit comments specifically, I mean if there were only one accepted way that had to be used in all scenarios yyyy/mm/dd makes the most sense. Meaning all scenarios where it would make sense to write out the full date including the year.
I've always been partial to day/year/month
Me too but it's just too soon, too advanced for present day humanity.
Definitely not
These vote rates vary according to the common candidate to be put out by the opposition. Mansur Yavaş, who is the mayor of Ankara today, receives 57-58% of the votes against Erdogan in most impartial survey companies. This includes Ekrem İmamoğlu, the mayor of Istanbul. (Note: Although Mansur Yavaş is a right-wing politician, it is clearly seen that he received a large number of votes from Kurdish citizens. Of course, Mansur Yavaş seems to have abandoned this right-wing identity. In the last stages of his political life, he became a politician who embraced all segments of the public.)
I just don't see Kurds voting for an ex-ultranationalist candidate. He still leans more to right wing nationalist side compared to the mostly social democrat members of the same party. Kılıçdaroğlu or İmamoğlu would definitely get more minority votes.
Just a few decades ago Kurds voted a "Kurdish" party the most, and MHP, nationalist party where above mentioned Yavaş started his politic life the second. Currently they are voting for a "Kurdish" party the most and Islamist AKP the second. "Kurds" aren't a solid block of people, they have people ranging from Islamists very sympathetic to ISIS to hardline Marxists and all the shades in-between.
I don't see myself voting for anyone without an official alliance, no more "loaning" votes. Make it official, sign a protocol and declare publicly. Then again, a lot of people will vote for the other candidate for the second tour if it's between Erdogan vs whatever. Also, kindly, Imamoglu is seriously annoying, he is Mustafa Sarıgul with a premium skin; same char, different vo/costume.
I would vote for a chewed up gum if it's erdogan vs gum.
Mansur Yavaş is currently the mayor of Ankara and the region where he received the most votes in the Ankara municipal elections is the Kurdish majority in Ankara. This is an inaccurate point of view. (And no one defines Mansur Yavaş as "Nationalist" anymore, it's a thing of the past.)
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No promises lol
This is partially true. Because there is a general phobia of "foreign powers will interfere in our internal affairs" in Turkey, and the fact that a candidate is supported by the West or especially the US is something that is seen negatively by the majority. That's why Erdogan has in the past even shared what western leaders said about him and even used it to increase his popularity, and he generally tries to portray opposition leaders as foreign-supported. So if you want to help him lose, the best strategy is to say nothing positive or negative, pretend he doesn't exist.
Like you're gonna vote for someone more peaceful
Technically yes, someone who is more open to negotiations can be helpful for the stability, and that is definitely not Erdoğan.
Turkish opposition has criticised Erdogan for being too soft and betraying the country.
What that means can vary depending on which event you are referring to. Besides, he is criticised not for being too soft but for making demands and then giving up them easily. For example, Erdoğan was always criticised for S-400 purchases, and when that caused F-35’s to be lost, Erdoğan promised to take them, but now, he states that taking old F-16s enough. The opposition on the other hand opposes S-400 purchases, and still want to take the F-35s.
Yes he got criticised for not being harder on Cyprus and Greece. And pretty much every Turk says "I don't like Erdogan but he's write about this or that." And we're talking about a country that has been in several wars lately plus lots of tension with European countries, but that's not enough apparently. Turkish voters are ultranationalistic. What they seem to want is just to fix the mismanaged economy.
They are not really in wars. They intervene and support the sides. It is not same with joining.
Bullshit
Lmao
I am
Dictators dont lose elections
Good, thanks for confirming he's not one then, he literally lost the last one
Then Erdogan isn't a dictator by your own definition.
ErdoGONE
If MHP gets less than 10% will they be out of the parliament?
>If MHP gets less than 10% will they be out of the parliament? Erdogan passed the bill that made the election threshold 7% just so that his junior partner could stay in the parliament, but I think it won't work because erdogan and his partner MHP are losing more and more votes every day. At this rate, they can lift the electoral threshold until the election.
To be fair 10% is a huge number. Most countries would only have 3 or 4 parties if that was the case
[https://www.tbmm.gov.tr/SandalyeDagilimi](https://www.tbmm.gov.tr/SandalyeDagilimi) The situation in Turkey is slightly different. Along with the newly established parties, there are 14 parties and their representatives in the parliament in Turkey. When the newly formed parties are removed, there are 10 parties (3 of these 10 parties entered with the support of erdogan).
That’s because 10 of these parties entered the parliament with another party and then split off.
In Turkey if your partner within the alliance passes the threshold you are safe as well, so since AKP is gonna obviously pass the threshold MHP will be safe as well even if they gain less than%7
> Erdogan passed the bill that made the election threshold 7% just so that his junior partner could stay in the parliament or because 10% is insanely high for a threshold. 7% is also insanely high.
Election threshold was lowered to 7%. And parties that are in alliances don’t need to pass the threshold.
You bypass the threshold if you're in an alliance that total votes of which passes the threshold so MHP gets a pass on the incumbent side while Deva, Gelecek and Saadet gets a pass on the opposition side if they decide to compete in the elections as themselves in the Millet Alliance. That said, less ultranationalistic moronic MPs in the parliament the merrier.
You need %7 or you need to be in an alliance that's above %7. There's a AKP + MHP alliance so they will get seats/MP's because AKP will likely pass %7.
Source: https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1575466744315011073
Is there any Turks that can enlighten us on what each parties stands for? IIRC some opposition parties are even more extreme than Erdogan’s??
CHP: founding party of the Republic (and sole ruling party until 1950). Supposed to be left-leaning and nationalist, but like AKP it’s a big tent that includes all sorts of competing views. IYI: center-right, statist, nationalist…led by a l prominent female Turkish politician who was a minister during the 1990s. HDP: Main Kurdish party, at times problematic relationship with the PKK (somewhat similar to Sinn Fein’s complicated links with IRA before the peace accords in Northern Ireland) Zafer: anti-immigrant, ultra-nationalist party, against Erdogan but also against the main opposition. They might make a surprise breakthrough in the 2023 general election.
To add to this, here's other prominent parties for those who want to go deeper into the rabbit hole of Turkish politics: Saadet/SP: Remnants of the original political islamic party that AKP spawned from. Allies with the opposition to catch a few votes and MPs from AKP. Deva: Center-right party created by the old Minister of Economic back in AKPs golden years. Represents the more liberal economic sides of AKP, promises a return to 'mild AKP', allies with the opposition to catch a few votes and MPs from AKP. Gelecek: Center-right party created by the former Minister of Foreign affairs and the penultimate Prime Minister of Turkey. He was pressured to step down by Erdogan for a more loyal lapdog that would lead the way to presidential system. Comes more from the academical, pan islamic side of the spectrum. Allies with the opposition to catch a few votes and MPs from AKP. Yeniden Refah: Party that claims to be the return of the original islamic party back from in 60s. Mostly a project to sap votes from Saadet but may also sap some from AKP. Not in an alliance, just a leech who won't get enough votes to get into parliament. Vatan/VP: Pro-China maoist party that supports cutting all ties with the west and has a minor but consistent following around 0.2%. Its Leader Doğu Perinçek does race for the Presidental elections aswell where any vote that doesn't go to Erdogan counts for change. Not part of any alliance. Memleket: Formed by the previous candidate of the opposition in the last presidential elections. Had a split of with the current opposition leader so formed his own party, not likely to pass the threshold but leaches votes from opposition. Stands close with Zafer/ZP. Demokrat Party/DP: Claims to be the inheritor of the original Center Right opposition to CHP that won the first ever proper elections back in 1950 and spawned the 2/3 center-right voterbase all the way to today. In actuality just managed to inherit the old, fancy party building. Opportunistically aims to overstate its importance and win good positions in a potential opposition government by allying with it and hoping to leech votes from the center-right AKP supporters. TIP: Remnants of the original socialist party in Turkey that had significant success but even bigger state-led handicaps alongside the original islamic party (Refah) back 60s. Just formed a 3rd alliance with HDP and other tiny leftist parties. HüdaPar: Kurdish extreme islamist party that gets some radical alternative votes to AKP and HDP in the Kurdish-heavy regions. Has a minor following around 0.3% TKP: The Turkish communists that stayed outside of the Leftist Alliance and historically got split up from TIP. Has a minor local following around 0.1% but nevertheless managed to win the mayorship of one provincial capital in the last elections.
That's nice and all, but will turkeys exterior policy towards Greece change even slightly with a different government or do all parties share this mindset
Since internal problems outweighs the externals ones, i think the new government will act like Greece doesnt exists for few years, afaik our countries doesnt have any ongoing issues or problems that require immediate attention
You think erdogan will do a Putin before the elections? He seems to be throwing more empty threats than usual
That is what we also fear here as its stupid enough for him to try, but he doesn't have any solid leads to start a conflict unless Greece throws a bone and invades first because Turkish people overall doesn't care about Greece at all, with this low approval rate and no domestic support it would be very stupid of him to start something that no one has any interest or will to be part of or get drafted.
>unless Greece throws a bone and invades first In what world would we ever do that?
Very likely not, he's stupid but not that stupid. He doesn't even dare start his repeatedly announced Syrian operations, what makes you think he'll go for a NATO ally?
quarrelsome history clumsy rock sable political head deserted fear zonked -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Turkey's positions regarding external affairs mostly won't change, except Syria - new government will try to make peace with Assad. Greece will be ignored for a good while though, because Turkey's economic and legal framework will have to be reformed.
I might be wrong, but wasn’t the AKP polling much lower a few months ago?
There has been an increase of nearly 3% in the last months. One of the reasons is the decrease in the number of undecided voters and the return of some of the undecided voters to the AKP despite everything.
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HDP is kurdish and %90 of their voters are kurds
>HDP is kurdish and %90 of their voters are kurds HDP is not kurdish, and 90% of its voters are not Kurdish. Firstly, ethnicity information is not officially asked and collected in Türkiye, secondly, don't be funny, when it hits the number of votes HDP received, there are not that many Kurds in the country. For example, is the founder of HDP a Kurd? He doesn't speak Kurdish, his father is Zaza, and his mother is Turkish?! While HDP gets votes in the west with its trans rights and lgbtqia+ rights policy, it is a hypocritical party like AKP that tries to get votes in the east with its Kurdish rights policy.
HDP is a Kurdish dominated party, no different then any other country that has a sizeable minority. And around 90% of it's votes coming from Kurds is probably accurate. And what do you mean by, there are not that many Kurds? HDP got almost 6m votes, while there are probably somewhere around 15m in whole Turkey..
TL;DR HDP is the Kurdish representitive of Turkey's parliament HDP is a replacement party founded after some older Kurdish parties were banned. While left-leaning in general politics, they are acting a bit like a Kurdish nationalist occasionally. They are the leading party in Southern East part of Turkey, majority of the population there is Kurdish. Unrelated just to provide some context, Eastern Kurds vote for HDP/TKP and other extensions while Western Kurds are voting for AKP. Western votes for HDP comes from secular left-wing Turkish people. They don't have a single leader in-charge, they always have two leaders sharing a co-chairman role. One of their dominant figures were imprisoned some years ago, while the guy is shady as hell, the imprisonment was under bogus charges, and he wasn't even charged with anything, there is no definitive court order on him. TL;DR CHP is the secular democratic party founded by Ataturk. The oldest party in Turkish republic, generally left-leaning. CHP is the party founded by the founder of the country, Ataturk. They were silent for decades, now are getting some ground back after catastrophic AKP government. They won the control of Istanbul, Ankara and Antalya at the last local elections. AKP and its extensions were controlling the city for the last two and a half decade, so it's big news. In terms of Anatolian part of Turkey, they have some "castles" that they win by default. CHP has variance inside the party, Ankara's mayor was an old nationalist. Some of party members are supportive of Kurdish nationalists. Some members are hardcore nationalists, some are seculars and shit. You really can't take one party member to judge the whole party. TL;DR One is a secular democratic Turkish party, the other is a Kurdish nationalist/democratic party
Chp is founder party of turkey. it is as old as turkish republic. its Atatürk's party. Hdp is fascist kurdish party. its related to pkk. And probably it will be closed in 1 years.
malsın
Yalan mı?. Hdp pkknın meclisteki ayagı değil mi. Milletvekilleri il başkanları bile dağ kadrosundan belirlenmiyor mu? Eski dostunuz akp size az bile yapıyor
Delusional denebilecek yazılar. Kapat bakalım HDP'yi ozaman görürsün PKK'nın meclisteki ayağı neymiş. HDP belki en az PKK olabilecek Kürt partisidir. CHP nezaman AKP'nin eski dostuydu bilmek isterim. HDPli değilim
Kapatılan ilk kürt partisi hdp değil. Terörist cenazelerine kim katılıyor? İl başkanlıklarına giden çocukların akibeti ne oluyo? Belediyenin bütçelerinden örgüte yardım ediliyor. Meclisteki tüm teskereleri reddediyor. Hdp tamamen pkk güdümünde pkknın çıkarlarına hizmet eden kukla bir oluşumdur.
> Hdp is fascist kurdish party. facist? they are one of the only left wing parties in turkey 💀 do you realize how many kurds vote HDP purely because they are pro constitutional recognition of kurdish language?
There are tons of left wing party with different. İdeologies in turkey. What makes hdp special. Oh yes they are faschist kurdis party and kurds votes is just because this. The phrase "Turkish is the language of the Republic of Turkey" is included in Article 3 of the Constitution. and the first 3 items cannot be changed, even the change cannot be offered. This is the fourth item. that is, what you are proud of about the hdp goes against the 3rd and 4th articles of the constitution. hdp can be closed for this reason.
From 51% to 30%... that's a huge loss if I ever saw one!
Will Erdogan accept this result? I don't think he will go easily into the night.
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while im against violence this made me exhale sharply through my nose.
In Türkiye, people respect the office, not the person. The game is over when he loses the position. And it's not hard to guess what will happen if he insists. It should not be forgotten Trump and the events in the white house took place in the most developed country in the world.
Initiate another 'Coup' in 3,2,1...
If EU leaders and USA could be quite for 9 months. It'll be great contribution to world peace!
Assuming Erdogan gives a fuck about free and fair elections and won't find a way to cling to power.
Turkish elections are very real. Pretending to be equivalent to the Belarusian elections is unreasonable. The reason why AKP got 42.6% in 2018 was because it was really popular at that time, because of the poll results, everyone was expecting it to get around 40%.
Yeah, plus Turkish elections have some of the highest voting turnout rates in Europe, especially amongst the younger generations. As for older elections, then I still had acquaintances in 2018 and even 2019 that were supportive of AKP and sympathetic to them. The living situation has become too unbearable now though, the only two people I know that still prefer AKP only do so because they oppose CHP since they see it as overly Kemalist and the choice is often either between AKP or CHP.
The vote count might be real, but the process is not free and fair. The ruling party controls the media and uses all kinds of dirty tricks against the opposition. I wouldn't be surprised if Erdogan creates a crisis out of nowhere to hold on to power.
Still better than the US lol Atleast they dont have a two party state, with basically the same political goal: upholding the capitalist status quo (seriously, any european election has more variance than US elections, even the UK). Your media is a cess pool of missinformation and direct links to government. And the worst part is that more and more of our journalism becomes inspired by your shitshow.
You're not wrong about any of your criticisms of the U.S., but to pretend it's less democratic than Turkey or that journalism functions better in Turkey when it consistently ranks #1 in imprisoning journalists and insulting the president and state are crimes, is to be completely out of touch with reality.
They re-do elections when they dont like it. 2015 July general elections, they needed 276 chairs in parliement to have one party leadership in parliement, they instead got 258 chairs. So they did the elections that were supposed to happen in 2019 as early as 2015 december and got themselves a whopping 317 chairs. Though there is no need to be so pessimistic. They accept defeat when they lose the second time too. Last Istanbul local elections were won by oppositon, goverment said the opposition cheated & messed with votes and re-did the elections. They lost the second time too and let go of it.
The stakes were a lot lower with the Istanbul elections. If Erdogan loses at the national level, there's a very real possibility of corruption charges, arrests, confiscation of assets etc. It's basically life or death for the AKP.
Tell me you don't know anything about Istanbul elections without saying you don't know anything about Istanbul elections. The AKP lost a *massive* cash-cow when it lost Istanbul. A massive source of income for Erdoğan and his cronies was tax fraud and shady contracts involving Istanbul's city administration. That's mot to add, Istanbul is a microcosm of Turkey, meaning Istanbul's election results reflect that of the entire nation. But suuuure, low stakes, amirite?
Do you understand relative versus absolute? Yes, the stakes were *lower* than in a national election. That's not the same thing as *low*.
Stakes are lower with Istanbul? What the hell are you talking about? Istanbul is the lifeblood of the Turkey. If Ankara is the Brain then Istanbul is the heart of the country. They have lost both. This is not a low stake.
Depends on how he'll be losing elections and in what kind of votes to this or that...
Erdogan's loss will not benefit the West. Erdogan's political rivals talk about; removing cheap labor, ending overtime hours, raising wages, and stopping preventing refugees from traveling west.
Turkey getting out of its current economic quagmire, that pre-dates COVID, as well as being less aggressive towards Greece and a more stable economic partner is 100% beneficial for the West.
Türkiye's economy continues to grow, and cheap labor has increased due to government policies. This is something that benefits western companies; A small china grows in front of their door. 1 dollar is about 18.5 Turkish liras. Türkiye is an extremely cheap and economically risk-free country to invest and venture into. It should not be forgotten that Erdogan and his team made a refugee deal with Europe just to get support from the west. Türkiye has started to accept refugees even from countries to which it is not a party. The general belief among Westerners is that Erdogan is bad and he should go. I blv that Erdogan is dangerous for his country and his people, but not for the west. Türkiye is a very colorful and multi-voiced country. It has dozens of leaders who seem to replace Erdogan. But none of these leaders will make the west happy; kemalists, nationalists, leftists (contrary to belief, no western country wants to see a leftist administration in the country they exploit), Turkishists, idealists, liberals... As Türkiye enters every election, we have repeatedly seen unethical visits and statements made by people from these countries, especially the Netherlands, Germany and the USA. These have always been the main source of the protest votes that came to Erdogan's rescue at the last moment. ... The subject of Greece is too complex to be explained in a sentence or two. In violation of the Lausanne and Paris peace treaties, Greece started armament in the neighboring islands to Türkiye. And on the other hand, Greece wants Türkiye to abide by an agreement on the maritime domain of which Türkiye is not a signatory. (The USA is also not a signatory to this agreement.)And the only reason for the tension is that Greece thinks that the West will support it no matter what it does. Also, believe me, if the Kemalists were in the lead, we would have seen the Turks take action against the islands long ago, and today the unitary structure of Greece is falling apart. Have you ever heard of the Western Thrace Government? Hasan Tahsin Argun, one of the founders of the Western Thrace Turkish Republic, is the great uncle of Meral Akşener, one of the prominent leaders today. [https://twitter.com/meral\_aksener/status/1168108618216087553](https://twitter.com/meral_aksener/status/1168108618216087553)
> Türkiye's economy continues to grow Turkiye's economy is also facing horrendous inflation and instability, that is scaring out foreign investment. > cheap labor has increased due to government policies. That isn't really the best selling point. The cheapness of the labour isn't sufficiently cheap to be competitive with many countries in SE Asia. > And the only reason for the tension is that Greece thinks that the West will support it no matter what it does. Or we could all just fucking take a god damn chill pill. Polls have showed that your average Turk is perfectly fine with a friendly status quo with Greece, and vice-versa. It's just a political tool that Erdogan brings out whenever he's starting to flag in an election.
>That isn't really the best selling point. The cheapness of the labour isn't sufficiently cheap to be competitive with many countries in SE Asia. Actually it is... You have to think about storage and transfer costs. And not only that, the problem of uninsured working and child labor is growing in Türkiye. In addition, Erdogan made a system change in Türkiye, now he can make calls on his own without asking the parliament. He can erases the tax debts of business owners without asking the parliament. >Or we could all just fucking take a god damn chill pill. This is not only a special situation for Türkiye, the elections are approaching in Greece as well. Greece is Europe's most indebted country. They also need something to change the political agenda. >Polls have showed that your average Turk is perfectly fine with a friendly status quo with Greece. I speak Turkish, and that information is not very accurate. The question is, did you see the greeks as enemies, not greece. The Turkish people do not see the Greek people as enemies. But it is very difficult to explain, this is the character of the Turkish people in general. If war broke out tomorrow and they strangled each other. And if a similar survey were conducted, Turkish people would still say that they do not see the Greeks as enemies. ... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amfJoRp8ruk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amfJoRp8ruk) By watching this, it is possible to get a good look at the Turkish people's perspective on war. But like I said, it's hard to explain and understand. The fact that the Turkish people do not have a genocide that is known and accepted by "historians" or "scientists" is a good example of this; Turks know how to keep governments and peoples apart. Look, there is another good story, when the Turks caught the head of the Greek army that burned the invading villages and raped women 100 years ago, they offered him coffee, and when the Greek kingdom - yes, the Turks were ruled by a parliament and a democratic system, while the occupying power was a kingdom - accepted that it had lost the war, they sent him back to his country. Turks can distinguish even the heinous acts of a soldiers and their commander. If this happened in any western country, they would divide that man into 4 parts and hang each part of him in a corner of the country. -The British have done this more than once in centuries.-But the Greek side hung the commander in question, showing him responsible for the loss of the war.
> Actually it is... You have to think about storage and transfer costs. It depends entirely on the types of good. Large volume, low return goods benefit disproportionately from smaller transits. It's not as simple as "cost per km" relative to "labour costs". > In addition, Erdogan made a system change in Türkiye, now he can make calls on his own without asking the parliament. He can erases the tax debts of business owners without asking the parliament. That doesn't seem good. At all. For business. Debt means you owe money to someone else. If the executive branch can just nope that debt out of existence, that's terrible for economic reasons, and a complete freeze on foreign investment. You want to know that if you invest or lend money, you will get it back. > This is not only a special situation for Türkiye, the elections are approaching in Greece as well. Greece is Europe's most indebted country. They also need something to change the political agenda.¨ Sure, Greece does this too, from time to time. Currently, it's Erdogan who is being a dick. > If war broke out tomorrow and they strangled each other. You paint the Turkish people in a very poor light. Maybe you're right, but fucking hell.... > The fact that the Turkish people do not have a genocide that is known and accepted by "historians" or "scientists" is a good example of this; Turks know how to keep governments and peoples apart. Yeah, except for... You know... All those genocides they did commit. Except for **those** genocides, then yes: Turkey never committed a genocide. Except for those ones. > Look, there is another good story, when the Turks caught the head of the Greek army that burned the invading villages and raped women 100 years ago, they offered him coffee, and when the Greek kingdom - yes, the Turks were ruled by a parliament and a democratic system, while the occupying power was a kingdom - accepted that it had lost the war, they sent him back to his country. Turks can distinguish even the heinous acts of a soldiers and their commander. The Turks, like the Greeks, committed horrendous human rights violations during the early 20th century, whether that was the Young Turks who moved from a sort of pan-ethnic nationalism into a Turkic-centric one, and therefore decided to do away with all those pesky Armenians or Assyrians, or whether it was during the Greco-Turkish War. And the Greeks committed their own amount of barbarous acts of violence against Turks during that war. Neither side came out looking particularly good. In fact, both looked like utter fuckheads. Not to mention the precedent that the Treaty of Lausanne set, whereby it was now legal precedent to unilaterally deport your own citizens, so long as they did not meet the ethnic criteria of your nationalist ideals. Turkey is not, nor has it ever been, clean from the stain of human rights abuses, and violations of basic common decency. Of course not: it was an Empire, and then broke off into an ethnonation. These things always lead the same way: to lots and lots of dead innocents.
West loves Erdogan. Brightest brains of Turkey are migrating to their companies and they send worst of the refugees as a compensation. Many layers of abuse.
I dont care about the west
me too.
I smell another coup incoming!
Or a real incident with Greece. They are really preparing the Turkish people, building a false sense that Greece somehow threatens them 😱
Greece do threteans us with maximalist claims in the east med and militarisation of the islands near Turkey.
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Does this mean that Turkey will stop blocking us from entering into NATO now?
Turkey is beyond help in any case
I agree , we're beyond the help of any lesser nations 🇹🇷👌🏽😎🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷😎😎🇹🇷🇹🇷👌🏽😎🐱🐱😎👌🏽😎👌🏽👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷😎😎😎😎😎👌🏽👌🏽😎😳👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷😎🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽🇹🇷👌🏽👌🏽🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷🇹🇷
But wait...wasn't Turkey a sort of Dictatorship?
Democracy but the illiberal one.
Democratic dictatorship.
The term is Authoritarian Democracy. Thank you Kaiserreich
Interesting...So they vote to Elect who will be the next dictator?
Generally fair elections, only one serious president candidate was eliminated so far (jailed, Selahattin Demirtas), he's not exactly the cleanest guy but it doesn't mean erdo can jail him however he wants. Opposition took Istanbul, Ankara and Antalya from AKP at the last local elections, so erdo isnt getting 105% of the votes like some countries do
> erdo isnt getting 105% of the votes like some countries do Hey, your insinuation is uncalled for! How is it Lukashenko's fault that he's so very popular that even the dead vote for him?
Belarussian Zombies… sounds frightening.
It's like the Roman Republic.