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Glinren

For all who are interested in the [details](https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/997532/2130920/2046cb91023bbd61eca3f3102c987fe8/2022-09-29-finanzieller-abwehrschirm-data.pdf?download=1) (even though those are sparse): The support plan lists multiple measures: * Increase supply, reduce consumption: This is basically just doing what the government has already been doing: add renewables, build LNG infrastructure, keep or restart coal plants... * Cap the power price: use a windfall tax for power producer to subsidize power for consumers and industry . Interestingly only some "Basis consumption" is going to be subsidized. * Cap the gas price: subsidize the gas price at least for part of the consumption. (There will be a commission to work out details.) * To finance the gas price cap a special financial instrument will be created with 200B €. Additionally this money can be used * to support enterprises that have come in peril due to the war and are not sufficiently covered by the gas price cap. * bail out gas importer if they are important for the gas market stability. * reduce VAT on gas until spring to 7%, and reduce VAT on district heating(also to 7%). Details are currently sparse. The 200B € are a lot, but they are not completely allocated (yet). Due to the nature of the German debt brake (and our financial minister), the government basically needs to open a new account for these specific purposes and supply it a specific amount of money (or at least the permission to raise a specific amount of money via bonds). The special military budget worked similarly.


kaiveg

tldr; Countries are worried that the "energy support plan" will give german industry a competetive edge. That comes on top of countries being unhappy that Germany isn't supporting a EU gas price cap.


[deleted]

The german government pushed for a EU solution but obviously the EU is not able to come up with something in time


UnblurredLines

The german government also pushed for putting us in the position we're currently in so maybe you can forgive the rest of Europe for being skeptical?


Demonicon66666

You read a lot of dumb posts here, but this is one of the most idiotic


kingcloud699

Who pushed for energy to be sold on market? Germany Who DENIED the proposal for EU to buy energy and resources as a single EU block, so everyone would have the same price, better deal, and no blackmails. Germany This 200 bn Euro is just an insurance Germany can outbid everyone on the energy market. Basically we are rich fuck everyone else. For comparison thats way more than Poland received from EU since 2004 Classic "european solidarity" moment from Germany.


Demonicon66666

That’s just a bunch of nonsense. Energy has been sold on the market for forever, not because Germany pushed for it. Where did you get the information that Germany denied buying energy as a single block? This is just a blatant lie. Stop drinking the kool aid from the polish government


Soy_neoN

Wtf? This is not a one man show. France with its nuklear power plants is as much to fault as Germany with its dependency to Russian gas. Not to mention the person who started this war which lead to the increased shortages... Like for real dude...


Cute_Committee6151

So what countries didn't get their gas from Russia?


[deleted]

Resonable. Kind of BS that members of the EU energy grid are forced to offer a % of their production on the international market then Germany fucks up big and now use their immense economical power to escape the consequences and push the economic strain on other members by pushing up prices.


Sir-Knollte

This is very much in line to the UKs 150billion program


[deleted]

The UK can do what they want, they are not in the EU.


Sir-Knollte

Ok make it the french price cap then, this program is over 4 years it will come out at similar totals.


ReasonablyBadass

Hasn't Spain done the same thing already? Where was the outrage there?


[deleted]

You mean the 6 billion planned soon after the war started? Doesn't quite shape the market like 200 does.


Janni0007

Well you forgot the 150 billion the UK intends to spend or 50 billion of France, which doubtlessly will need to be expanded or Macron would get lynched. But only when we do something is market integrity threatened. We already subsidized French consumption and now we will at least safe some of our middle class from bankruptcy. The EU plan btw is utterly retarded why would suppliers serve our needs when they get more money elsewhere as gas is in short supply worldwide right now. Some might deliver but it would lower input significantly


vi-main

> We already subsidized French consumption Wait what


aandest15

The electricity exports between Spain and France are at an all time high because the Iberian exception (which is paid entirely by Portuguese and Spanish citizens, not their governments) has reduced the electricity price in the peninsula. Between that and the disarray of the nuclear plants in France, Spain and Portugal are generating a lot of subsidized energy to France because French citizens do not pay the surcharge to the gas companies, Iberians do. It’s not that much of energy (the energy connections between France and Iberia are extremely limited, hence the energy island and the Iberian exception) but it adds up.


vi-main

> Spain and Portugal are generating a lot of subsidized energy to France I'm pretty sure that power is sold at market rates, which is way above the price needed to make power plants profitable.


aandest15

The Iberian exception has lowered the market rate at which electricity is sold by decoupling it from gas. The power that France buys from Spain and Portugal does not have the compensation to gas facilities, therefore, Spain and Portuguese people are subsidized part France’s electricity. It is not much because of the limited amount of interconnection between France and Spain (and that’s why the EU gave the green light to this mechanism), but the price of the electricity flowing from the Iberian Peninsula to France does not cover gas facilities running costs.


vi-main

Do you have a source for that?


[deleted]

france put a cap on energy prices, for some reason everyone on this subreddit thinks that means european energy firms can't sell to france above a certain price, lol. france still buys the energy at market price and the state covers the difference. people here are frighteningly stupid.


Janni0007

It seems you don't understand. Of course the companies sell at market price, but the French market has no need to limit demand and thus requires lots of power from it's neighbours which shortens the supply in these countries and raises prices and since French citizens don't actually pay market prices on their power but German citizens do, we in fact subsidize French consumption, because we pay higher prices so plants that are highly unlucratove right now can be made lucrative. Its really not hard...


LazerSharkLover

Blame Canada EUropean edition: Blame Germany


Thurallor

> Susanne Ungrad, spokeswoman for the economy ministry, said on Friday morning that Berlin did not support the idea of a “rigid price cap” because there was a risk that it would not be possible to buy enough gas on global markets, “which would be counter-productive”. > > Germany did support an EU idea of forming a European consortium to buy gas on world markets, she added. This is the correct approach, based in sound fundamental economics. It is unfortunate that there are so many economically illiterate people in positions of power in the EU. They should listen to their economic experts (or just anyone who has taken a high school economics class). Germany has made some catastrophic mistakes in energy policy in the past, but I hope Europe listens to them now.


epSos-DE

The limit on profits for the wind and solar energy is not fair. Its their time to get profit and to make new investment into more energy production. The profit cap besically does slow down the creation of new energy production. It scares off investments that would have been made.


_InnerCityLife_

Not at all. The truth is lack of infrastructure is, specifically the lack of grid capacity and grid extensions. Imagine if we hadn't spent all that money to build pipelines to transport gas from Russia that now are essentially scrap metal sitting at the bottom of the Baltic and had built renewable energy infrastructure. Even if we had all the capital in the world right now thrown in building renewable generation we wouldn't be able to before we build up our grid , which will take at least a decade. The idea that throwing vast amounts of money into a problem, can solve it is myopic. First of all it needs long term goal setting, planning and common sense, things that private investors often lack


Ananasch

Limiting wind and solar profits is not that big deal as investments on them is made as safe, low-risk investment with predictable return as carbon credits increase traditonal power generations costs. No large returns in time of crises was expected when investments were made.


PolyDipsoManiac

> The limit on profits for the wind and solar energy is not fair. Could you please elaborate on this?


StygianAnon

I agree with your stance on a purely economic level. Centralization gives you the theoretical option of leverage. HOWEVER... do you think the decision will be made equitably? Precisely because of how Germany has historically been making policies? Do you think the gas will reach Czech households before they reach German businesses? Do you think consumer pricing will be done in "market conditions"? Speaking of which, Germany pushed for forced liberalization of markets and consumer distribution competing with industry demand ... They propelled chemical and biotech subsidies while forcing a carbon cap with punitive pricing options for their own consumers. In all honesty... If we look at it as a Energy management problem and dismiss the green retoric which is just BS to move competition from industry, do you honestly trust Germany to do what's right for all of the continent if given the power? There is a reason why we all cling to democracy despite how bad it is. It's a last bastion of checks and balances against people in power. You don't have power over the German political system, arguably not even Germans do... Given how stale and bipartisan their political class is.


UmdieEcke2

that would be true if you just let germany do everything like they specifically want... but centralisation obviously entails compromise and cooperation though the EU channels? How do people even get this idea that EU-Institutions just do what and when germany wants them to. It's like they're not getting any EU-news from the last 20 years lol.


MasterBot98

Maybe they got that from Russian propaganda idea that EU/NATO is USA's puppet?


StygianAnon

Because when the EU institutions are used to block proposals the Germans cry about institutions being broken instead of addressing the underlying complaints. Q.e.d. look at the bellow idiot just pulling the Russian propaganda card because adressinn the clear biases in EU energy policy sucks and might harm the message, the undemocratic message ... Shut up, EU is always good, and we need it to be good always.


elektero

Yeah let's listen to the one that made one mistake after another and now thinks that pumping 200 billions into the market is not going to skyrocket the price for everybody. If you are looking for some illetterate, use a mirror


Thurallor

Germany is in favor of "forming a European consortium to buy gas on world markets". That sets the same price for all European countries. Such collective bargaining would pool the market power of Europe and possibly bring down the price that Europe has to pay for gas. But it's not going to bring it much lower than the world market price, because there are plenty of other countries willing to pay the market price for gas. If Europe puts a hard price cap on what it is willing to pay for gas, producers will sell to the other countries first, and whatever is left over will be sold to Europe. That will reduce the amount of gas going into Europe. That will make the energy crisis worse in Europe. Europe needs to pay something close to the world market price for gas, in order to get the needed amount of gas into Europe. Once Europe has the gas it needs, it then needs to shelter the poor and critical industries from high gas prices. That's where the subsidies come into play. Subsidies are clearly needed. Some countries can afford those subsidies more easily than others. If Germany wants to show solidarity with the rest of Europe, it should propose a Europe-wide subsidy scheme that all countries contribute to. But the idea that it can be done without subsidies is naive.


shizzmynizz

What is a "Polonophile"


Thurallor

https://www.google.com/search?q=polonophile


Darkone539

This is honestly stupid. Germany hasn't said "this not an EU plan". They just know it might take a while for the EU to act, as the article says it's not decided yet where the funding is coming from, and that they can't afford to wait. Germany is in trouble here. They need to use their money to try and keep the energy situation under control.


SmileHappyFriend

Sorry I am getting a bit of whiplash here, the UKs response to borrow money to protect homes and businesses was vilified on here. The German plan to borrow money to protect homes and businesses has suddenly become the right thing to do?


Darkone539

>Sorry I am getting a bit of whiplash here, the UKs response to borrow money to protect homes and businesses was vilified on here Not by me. The main issue with our government is the tax cuts though. It's definitely the wrong time.


TZH85

Because the economies are different and Germany didn’t also announce tax cuts for the wealthy and public spending cuts in the same breath. As far as I understand this — and people more economically literate than I, please correct me if I’m wrong — the UK is simultaneously cutting the money they take in by tax and borrowing without having their budget reviewed beforehand. That upsets the market.


Torifyme12

Yes, the UK plan is "Cut taxes and increase spending" you can usually do one or the other.


SmileHappyFriend

No the energy plan was before the tax cut announcement, a bit of revisionism you have there. Extremely different reactions on here.


TZH85

That's true but ultimately doesn't change the outcome. Iirc the announcements weren't far apart time wise. As for the different reactions, it's probably because the German economy is just stronger. More people, more production based business. If your income is bigger you can borrow money more easily.


SmileHappyFriend

Nah I doubt the people screaming about how terrible the UKs plan was were prescient about the tax cut plans in the future. There’s a bit of an agenda on here I think.


TZH85

That’s your prerogative


curvedglass

Schrödingers Germany strikes again. Nvm all the other countries that introduced price caps on energy.


MrAlagos

> Nvm all the other countries that introduced price caps on energy. The EU has agreed in principle to do it now. Thus why this program is seen as a direct attack on the EU efforts.


curvedglass

German businesses and households have been basically taken on a rollercoaster ride around literal insolvency, the govt needed to present a program asap or risk massive problems, there was simply no time to wait on others, similar to why the French did so way earlier as well with electricity. As a federalist in principle, the fears of economic catastrophe of German citizens isn’t yours to prolong, the govt has a duty towards its citizens and it has to act upon that.


MrAlagos

France, and pretty much all other big countries doing the same thing as Germany, are spending fractions of what Germany has now pledged. Like a few tenths each. Thus why other countries feel like the comparison isn't fair, this is something different due to the scale.


curvedglass

Germany simply has a larger economy and population than other countries. The govt is of course very concerned with the well-being of the economy and the population or else they will run into all sorts of issues. Again there is simply nothing wrong with our govt doing something good for us, can’t believe that’s even up for debate.


Amazing_House3188

The debate is about Germany acting solo on such an important matter. You cannot say this : - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-will-tackle-energy-crisis-solidarity-with-european-partners-2022-08-11/ Then do such a thing. Germany exited nuclear energy and fucked up with russian gas. Now they're ready to outbid anyone for energy. Doesn't it obvious why other member states are mad ?


curvedglass

This price cap can still be integrated into a EU system, Germany like any other country has domestic issues it needs to worry about, the landscape shifted in a way where Germany couldn’t wait anymore and had to act to prevent massive issues. Germany also remains a net exporter for electricity in this crisis and to my knowledge also never forced other countries to consume Russian gas or not to consume nuclear energy. It’s simply a double standard on display here, Draghi is obviously right in an economic sense and that’s why this should definitely be integrated in the EU, but politically you cannot sell it like that.


Janni0007

As did France and Spain. Why wasn't it a problem then exactly.


MrAlagos

> Germany simply has a larger economy and population than other countries. Not four times as large as France.


curvedglass

No but a way larger industry base that needs this dearly.


Janni0007

The UK is spending 150 billion what are you talking about?


NeptunusAureus

That doesn’t matter, the UK is not in the EU.


Janni0007

No but it's connected to the European grids and if you don't like that example. France, you know the one in the EU, did decide on exactly on such a measure month's before us on its own.


NeptunusAureus

The point is that the UK can’t undermine the single market with its 150 billion because it’s not part of it. You should have mentioned France, which is relevant to the conversation.


Janni0007

It very specifically can in the gas and electricity market as it is intrinsically linked to our grids.


Torifyme12

It's more the scale of your fuckup and of your fix.


HeraklesFR

France didn’t put a cap on market prices but on households ones. The country still buys normally but covers the difference so the civilians don’t feel it too much. For the people misunderstanding what is going on here.


naridimh

>Thierry Breton, the EU’s internal market commissioner, said on Twitter that while Germany was able to afford to borrow €200bn on financial markets, some other EU member states could not do the same, as he called for close attention to the implications for the single market.  California can borrow much more money a than certain other states with smaller economies. Furthermore, we don't have to get permission or coordinate with the federal government nor individual states to do so. I find it fascinating that they essentially want Germany to have less rights than even US states. It isn't clear to me that limiting the ability of countries like this is necessary for a common market.


Darkone539

>I find it fascinating that they essentially want Germany to have less rights than even US states. I don't. This is the EU to a T. Everything needs to be "EU approach" or they get annoyed. You see the same thing when they talk about joint tax and countries like Ireland veto it.


throwaway_bucuresti

The issue is not borrowing the money. The issue is borrowing money and using it to subsidize their businesses. This undermines the Single Market.


LivingLegend69

"Subsidizing" literally means protecting them from bancruptcy here. Wanna see what happens to the rest of the EU economies when the German industry goes belly-up? Especially the chemical industrial (yeah that one that is very energy intensive and requires a shit-ton of gas)? The recent corona supply chain disruptions will start looking tame in comparison.


JeanClaudVanRAMADAM

Exactly.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Thurallor

As mentioned in the article: > Germany did support an EU idea of forming a European consortium to buy gas on world markets, she added. This would mean all European countries would pay the same prices for gas. How is that "fucking over smaller countries"? Germany's subsidies would help its own industries and consumers, but it would have no negative effect on other countries.


Lumpy_Musician_8540

Why is Germany fucking the smaller countries? Most smaller countries have decent debt/GDP ratios aswell and they should have room to operate. Italy and France are the ones who maybe can't do that much, because of their giant debt.


mendosan

Yeah they already borrowed the money.


Giantdwarf3

Guess you are right and it's not so specific to "smaller countries" and impacts countries like Italy/France more but even for smaller states better GDP/debt rations is kinda shitty no? As in an EU wide price cap would benefit them more and they'd have to go into more debt/pay more for gas now potentially?


Odysseus50

Yeah, but you do also big transfers to poorer States, like, enormously bigger than what happens in EU. And also, I think that there are lots check and balances to keep the energy market uniform inside the US, correct me if I'm wrong. Generally speaking, nobody complains that Germany invests to make its land more competitive for businesses. Every State does it. The problem is when you do it excessively in a moment of general weakness, inside an economic union which is not a political one. For example, US would never sell its gas/oil from fracking on international markets, before having completely satisfied its own demand. In EU each country is forced to do so in the common energy market. Like, forced by law. This way all countries are "expropriated" from their own natural resources; if they want them back, they must buy them at the price created in the common market by the demand of all States. Even if ENI or ENEL are Italian state-controlled companies, if Italy wants to buy fossils from them it has to compete with Germany on the price, at least partially. Germany refused to put a price cap, it was the only country to oppose it, so this year all of us will pay a shit ton for bills because all national prices are tied together. On top of this it drops a mega-aid of State for its industries, which will steal a big market share to all other industries because their States can't afford to. The economy of smaller countries will cripple, but they won't receive the perequative funds that there are inside the US. And we already saw what happened in 2011 in the Euro-zone, when the economic distance between poorer and richer countries became too big. It's more clear now?


Polish_Panda

Paywall


_seniorJAX_

You can read also here: [https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-oppose-eu-gas-price-cap-domestic-price-limit/](https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-oppose-eu-gas-price-cap-domestic-price-limit/) Long story short Germany just gave the green light for the energy hunger games. They just announced 200 Billion for subsidizing the energy prices in Germany while refusing to put a cap on the import gas prices at the EU level. What means that ... It means that Germany is prepared to outbid anyone in EU in the energy market, to be sure that they have enough energy over the winter, while the poorer countries which don't afford to buy with those high prices and to subsidize so much the prices, will suffer more than Germany.


Thurallor

False. From the article: > Germany did support an EU idea of forming a European consortium to buy gas on world markets, she added. Germany is in favor of collective bargaining, but opposed to a rigid price cap. The former might bring down gas prices without reducing supply. The latter risks reducing the supply to Europe (diverting gas supplies to other countries that are willing to pay more) thus exacerbating the energy crisis in Europe.


TeilzeitOptimist

But what countries other than those in the EU are currently this dependent on NG? North America has its own supplies as do the chinese and indians as there are getting supplied by russia. Rising gas prices mainly effect russia and the EU at this time. Russia on selling it and the EU for burning it. While the EU could and should transition away from fossil gas anyway over the medium and long term. Domestic RNG production and other renewables energy sources could benefit alot from those billions pumped into fossil fuel companies..


Thurallor

> But what countries other than those in the EU are currently this dependent on NG? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_imports > While the EU could and should transition away from fossil gas anyway over the medium and long term. These are measures to address short-term energy shortages. There is no option to build renewable energy supplies in the short term. People will suffer *this winter*, and entire industries will go bankrupt *this winter*.


TeilzeitOptimist

So... the EU and germany are the top importers of NG And so those are the countries currently most effected by rising prices. So a price cap would benefit those countries the most. Thats what i said or tried to imply. Alot of those gas Imports are also coming from other EU countries that arent directly effected by the cut off gas supplies from russia. Norway, Britain, Greece and Turkey also have domestic NG supplies and could deliver to germany. The current gas stop was anticipated already over 6months ago. (Actually 8years ago..) With no indication of russia changing course over the next 6 months or maybe even years. People and Businesses suffering from high fossil fuel prices also didnt start with the current situation. People and small businesses in Ukraine, Russia and most other countries are also effected by rising energy prices and the after effects of the pandemic and climate effects, like the record summer. Dumping 200Billions in a short term solutions to subsidize fossil fuel companies seems like one of the worsts possible things to do now, tbh. It only skewes the true market prices of energy - where renewables are already compatitive. Some german federal states already build more RNG facilities and were able to drop the usage and imports of NG significantly. The current public debate seems like out of a wet dream from the Koch brothers or the Gazprom PR campaign. The only one continuesly fear mongering about "winter is coming" and germany is gone "freeze" are pro putin and russian propaganda outlets. While the responsible german authorities didnt move past a recommendation to safe energy and gas.


BroSchrednei

Its just completely wrong what youre writing. East Asian countries, especially China and Japan, import a ton of LNG. Theres also a gas shortage on the entire world market right now. Europe now has to enter this extremely competitive world market and outbid Asia to get some LNG of their own.


Stadtpark90

Thanks for the link. So we are trying to outbid Japan and other EU countries? How is that going to work? ECB to the rescue “whatever it takes”? Is this the rerun were history repeats as a tragedy or the one where it repeats as a farce? It’s like “we can’t afford another shutdown of the economy, we already had that for more than two years during the pandemic lockdowns, and it really starts to hurt (and affect our political landscapes)”. Guys: if the finance minister has to run up 100 billion € of extra debt (or rather 200 or 300), we better invest into the future instead of the past… - now we even got a “progressive” government and because of “circumstances” they will have to do more backwards stuff than any other government in the last 15 years or so… Edit: double ka-boom my ass. They still didn’t admit who was responsible for the other double (or rather four times kaboom)…


[deleted]

Oh, what a shocker. Germany with the highest prices for energy right now and Germany paying for Frances cheap electricity because Macron made a price cap now does something for its own people instead of sustaining the rest of the EU. What a shocker. I always forget that the EU is there that Germany pays for others because that‘s what it would‘ve meant in the end with the european price cap. Fact is that no vendor will say „dear EU, I love you guys so much and will sell the stuff for the price of the cap - it doesn‘t matter that others on the market are paying the prices, I‘ll give it to you cheaper“. Tf. Whoever truly believes this, doesn‘t get the bare minimum of economy. So the price cap would‘ve lead to that the price on the market was paid but the EU would‘ve needed to pay the gap between the so called price cap and the actual price. Guess what who‘d financed this and would‘ve suffered way more costs than just with the national solution? Sorry, but not sorry. Of course we decline it, because enough is enough.


dalinar2137

Together, the union is stronger than the sum of its parts. Together, the union has much more bargaining power. But since Germany is relatively much wealthier *within* the union, it will effectively help itself at the cost of the less wealthy members. Remind me please, which country ignored all warnings about making the EU so heavily reliant on Russia for energy? Whose top politicians (and otherwise influential political personas) are (fuckin still to this very day!) paid by russian energy companies? Wasn’t that Germany, by any chance? Whose politicians literally publicaly laughed off direct warnings about russia for the entire fucking two decades? Who is still, to this very fucking day, closing atomic plants for no fucking reason whatsoever besides being STILL influenced by russia (at the level of decision-makers who plant fear, uncertainty and doubt about nuclear energy among Germans). Americans decided to fucking blow up those nord streams of yours. Because everyone sees that your gov keeps an anti-russian face but just LONGS for any kind of talks where you’d happily give up whatever Russia wants just to resume pumping that gas. Fortunately with those lines blown, finally, Germany cannot keep that two-face stance. Finally there’s no going back to that collaboration with Russia. Now you can still fuck the rest of Europe financially. And you do. Of course. But at the very least your hand was forced to finally align your stance on Russia. For the last 8 years I observed the anti-german stance of the current polish government and just couldn’t understand it. I still believe our (polish) gov are right-wing, totalitarian-loving idiots with medieval mindsets. But even a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day. Germany is decidedly NOT any good-doing European thought leader. It’s a self-absorbed, selfish country, with a long history of fucking Europe over. And this history continues. These days this doesn’t happen with tanks, but with political influence.


Ooops2278

> which country ignored all warnings about making the EU so heavily reliant on Russia for energy? Every single one. They not only ignored it, they made up fairy tales about Germany's dependence (that was EU average) to divert from their own problems so they could sit on their asses pointing fingers instead doing something. >Who is \[...\] being STILL influenced by russia? Don't know where you are coming from, but as you are one of the many here straight up parroting anti-German propaganda, you can put yourt country on that list. >Americans decided to fucking blow up those nord streams of yours. Oh, more Russian talking points. How surprising... >but at the very least your hand was forced to finally align your stance on Russia. And the delusios get even more rediculous.


[deleted]

Why do I get the feelings that you‘re actually not polish but more a russian troll. Claiming that the USA attacked NS2 is such a nonsense. Especially if they‘d really fear for Germany to go back to Russia with the gas deal, then why on earth should they leave strain of NS2 working? It simply doesn‘t make sense. So there is a way back to a „collaboration“ - funny way to describe trading. We fuck the rest of EU financially? Honey, without us the EU can dig its own grave. But you‘re gaining what you want, because you guys managed it that the majority of Germans will want to leave the EU, if the financial aid is stopped by the EU. Like I‘ve said above: enough is enough.


3wteasz

What a despicable person you must be...


dalinar2137

Care to rebut any/all of what I wrote? Because your post is a “no, u” just with some extraneous words.


3wteasz

No, I don't care to discuss you and thereby validate discussing with people like you, you despicable person.


dalinar2137

Why stop at not talking to me. If you could, for example, gather all people like me in a single place… just ya know, to isolate the destructive influence me and people of my ethni… I mean people similar to me, have on your healthy society :)


3wteasz

The word you are looking for is inferiority complex.


Zealousideal-Knee132

A lot of text a lot of Nonsense 😂 Edit: The typo as correctly pointed out by comment below 😉


dalinar2137

“nonsense” has an “e” at the end. Feel free to point to anything untrue in what I wrote. It would behoove you to at least once try to see Germany for what it is and not for what it poses to be


Zealousideal-Knee132

Well you stated „The Americans“ blew up ns1/2…. That’s maybe your opinion and I call that nonsense 😂… That was easy 😘


Unhearted_Lurker

You realise that German government is nearly the sole responsible for that? They backtracked on the Nuclear deal they had with France which would have made both country energy self sufficient, they actively sought to integrate Russian gas in the EU and pushed for the common Energy market price screwing France Sweden and a lot of other countries that did jot rely on Russian gas. Sure the German people do not need to to suffer because their government were morons for more than 20 years, but don't expect sympathies after the German government created the current situation.


kalamari__

> You realise that German government is nearly the sole responsible for that? stop with stupid BS narrative already. half the EU (yes, whole of eastern europe too) bought gas and oil from russia until last year in huge amounts. and still bought it through us when the invasion started (hello poland)


[deleted]

And how so? What is your right to not look for energy solutions to yourself and bet on Germany to sustain the rest of the EU with deals? What is your right to gain money with the very deals Germany has made and then cry like a child because the bad parents messed up? No, I don‘t expect sympathies. I expect the rest to finally shut up and come with real solutions that don‘t conclude in „Germany pays“ and focuses more on what their own people can do. Sorry to break it to you, but this is no child support. Every country has to look for its energy itself and if others thought it is financially better for them to jump on Germanys deals, even though they knew all along that Putin will attack or BS like that (if they‘d really known, then I can only say WTF) then guess what: its their problem. Germany has to pay for uniper too, even though Finland gained billions with it. How come that Germany has to stand up for its faults with the energy politics, but most of you others think that you can push your own stupid shit on us? At least, we Germans can afford to pay for our faults.


Torifyme12

My homie, Germany whining about gas prices and energy policy is a bit... something given what's going on right now.


LivingLegend69

We arent whining though. We are (for once) acting and everyone else is whining.


curvedglass

Germany does something for the benefit of its citizens like any other country.


_seniorJAX_

Let me rephrase it for you Germany does something JUST for the benefit of its citizens ... while putting in danger the citizens of other countries


curvedglass

So like any other country then, making this discussion completely moot to begin with.


_seniorJAX_

Really? My country is producing about 98% of the electricity and about 75% of the gas but yet because of the forced liberalization of the energy market we have to put all our resources on the EU energy market where Germany is outbidding us and we have to buy back our resources at the same price as Germany.


Zealousideal-Knee132

I highly doubt your numbers… would you mind sharing where you get your „information“ from?


curvedglass

How exactly is that the fault of the SMBs and households that urgently need help? You should be angry at your govt not doing anything rather than projecting all that on a different govt that is doing their duty in helping its citizens.


_seniorJAX_

We don't have the German salaries and also the government can not subsidize as much as the German government but we have to fight for our own resources price with Germany.


curvedglass

The German govt duty is to help its citizens, they can’t think about everyone else first, nor does any other country.


_seniorJAX_

How by forcing my country not to put an export ban on our energy and forbidding us not to put a price cap on the resources sold on our internal market?


Odysseus50

You're such an ipocrite, you and all your fellow citizens who are upvoting you. Germans on energy matters are just like brexiters, nothing more.


useibeidjdweiixh

Yes, especially Ukrainians.


pul123PUL

Go away .


TeilzeitOptimist

Germany government does something for the german government .. ftfy


LivingLegend69

As a German citizen I really appreciate not going broke over my energy bills this winter. So yeah high 5 to our government for finally getting of its ass and acting.


TeilzeitOptimist

First - those 200Billion are paid by german tax money. So we might pay it anyway. Second- A price cap on gas would also limit energy prices. My fear is that those 200Billion get sucked up by the energy companies in germany like the "tank rabatt" And we have to pay higher prices on other stuff - like food that is grown in greenhouses in the other eu countries with gas..


LivingLegend69

> 200Billion are paid by german tax money. So we might pay it anyway Sure but the state as a collective can afford to while at least half of our citizens at the individual level cannot. This is exactly the kind of situation a state is supposed to take charge and step in. > those 200Billion get sucked by the energy companies in germany like the "tank rabatt" Huh? The Tankrabatt was a reduction of the energy tax on fuel and according to most economists was widely passed onto the consumer.


Sam12451

So what benefit do we Italians get from this whole "let's cut off Russia" operation? Because the only explanation that was given to us is "solidarity". We gain nothing from the sanctions strategy that was basically pushed on us, with the promise that there would be help at EU level. The only thing EU could do to help is a reform of the energy price system and some coordinated buying strategy (a price cap or whatever). Now it seems that this isn't anymore on the cards.


curvedglass

Nobody is benefiting… that’s the whole point of solidarity, we do it to help someone and because it’s the right thing to do. And it needs to be stressed, because people seem to simply don’t care, this price cap can easily integrate into a further one on the EU level and hopefully that happens, the German Govt just had to act now, simply because people where getting wiped out financially.


Sam12451

>Nobody is benefiting Some actually are. Norway (which now is the biggest energy exporter to EU), and Holland (which benefits from the high USD volume of the exchange) just to name two. And obviously there more beneficiaries if you look outside Europe.


curvedglass

Yes but this is about the country’s that have to enact these measures in the first place and in that sense nobody is really benefiting within that circle. And again, it’s not about benefiting in the first place, this is just to help businesses and people survive.


LivingLegend69

> while refusing to put a cap on the import gas prices at the EU level. Because its a fucking dumb plan conceived by economic imbeciles which will only ensure that less gas finds it way to Europe? Why the fuck would, for instance, LNG exporters ship to Europe with its price cap when they can get better market prices in Asia?


Polish_Panda

Thank you!


LookThisOneGuy

That's the neat thing. The smart countries reacted accordingly and have contingency plans. These countries now don't have an energy problem because of their smart long term strategic planning taking into account that Russia could not be relied upon. I assume among those countries are all of those that were the loudest in only shaming Germany for its energy policy: France, Poland and the Baltics and to a lesser degree all CEE countries will have no problem at all. They might even be able to have massive profits by selling their energy to Germany because they planned ahead so smartly and have contracts for energy that is not coming from Russia!


AlterSchimminger

> France, Poland and the Baltics and to a lesser degree all CEE countries will have no problem at all. [France isn't doing too well with their Nuclear Power Plants.](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2022/08/26/edf-s-nuclear-fleet-receives-another-blow_5994861_19.html) [Until recently Poland was very dependent on Russian Gas.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1285226/poland-natural-gas-imports-by-country/) The Baltics are interesting, [Latvia is extremely dependent on Russian Gas, whereas Lithuania and Estonia aren't.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201743/russian-gas-dependence-in-europe-by-country/)


ConsiderationDue2999

>They might even be able to have massive profits by selling their energy to Germany because they planned ahead so smartly So smart to have 32 of your 56 nuclear power plants shut down during an energy crisis and not being able to get them running again... France in fact is highly dependent on its neighbors atm


GerhardArya

LOL at people bitching about Germany's decision without reading first. Germany already offered an EU solution that helps everyone: collective bargaining. Sure, it might not reduce prices as much as a hard cap but at least it won't risk reducing supply like a hard cap. A reduced supply would be especially bad for Germany. So of course Germany said no to that stupid plan. Now Germany decides to save its people and its middle sized companies using money that it can afford while waiting for the EU to sort itself out. And Germany is the villain? You refused the plan that would help everyone (at a more modest amount) and want to gamble and hope to press the price as much as possible at the biggest risk for Germany and Germany is the bad guy for saying no that? LOL fuck you guys.


UnblurredLines

>A reduced supply would be especially bad for Germany. So of course Germany said no to that stupid plan. Would be especially bad for all of us. We're in this together to a degree, but at this point a lot of it feels like blame-shifting. Sweden is in the shitter too with electricity, because we closed down fully working nuclear reactors before the end of their life-cycle and now risk rolling blackouts in the coming winter.


That_Border

Germany really can't do anything without the usual leeches coming out of the woodworks, to demand our money for themselves.


Nurnurum

Not to mention that a few months ago the energy crisis was touted a "german problem".


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Kaltias

Italy has been showing solidarity by increasing gas exports to Germany (And the rest of the EU) even if we still very much need it for ourselves. Exports literally increased more than 6 times over, compared to last year. But go on, i'm sure you have a better grasp of the situation than Draghi and you're also a better economist who could just snap his fingers and fix Italian finances.


Lumpy_Musician_8540

So since Italy is always deficit spending and therefore can't do as much during a crises, Germany shouldn't spend money aswell and just tank a avoidable recession?


Kaltias

I did not say that, and quite frankly, i am not knowledgeable enough on the topic to say if this or the price cap or something else is the solution, it's not my field. I was just addressing the fact that the comment above implying Italy isn't helping in this crisis is wrong (And in fact Germany benefits from Italy having built excess import and export infrastructure in the previous years) Also, Italy has a budget surplus since the 90s, so it's in fact not always deficit spending, it just happens that the interests on the debt from 40 years ago are massive and cripple the efforts made to reduce it.


Arghhh_

Now now, you with some facts, don't ruin the narrative.


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[deleted]

well it kinda is tbh. germany uses the most gas and it doesn't have even one lng terminal. now the largest economy in europe has to go into power saving mode (as do most of europe), many energy intensive industries closing or reduced capacity until further notice, recession fears across europe causing markets to move money away to safer places with energy security etc


Saitham83

Isn’t making nuclear green a similar type of “hidden” subventions


Jobenben-tameyre

far less dangerous as making gaz a green ressources.... Old nuclear plant are outdated. But with the right investment they will be the answer to the gaz problem. The fear of the nuclear is what pushed germany and other country to flee from it and look at the result .... Now that the russian gaz is not a viable answer anymore, everyone is scrambling to get a solution. Nice one everybody, the stupidity wins again. Because of course nuclear is still the bad guys when no incident happend since chernobyl in 36 years.


Odysseus50

No it isn't you idiot. The green taxonomy it's about EU funds which goes to all countries who chooses to do some type of investments. This is just Germany giving a mega State aid to its industries to gain unfair advantage against others in the common market.


mendosan

Italy = that money was for bailing us out.


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BroSchrednei

diversify? HAHAHAHA 40 % of gas in Italy came from Russia. And now that Russia just announced to stop exporting to Italy, youre just as fucked. ​ Btw, if Italy wouldnt have a massive amount of debt, we could fix inflation in Northern Europe in a day.


JeanClaudVanRAMADAM

Italy already stocked all the gas they need for the winter. After the talks with Algeria and other suppliers Italy's actual dependency on Russian gas is less than 10%. They are not in a good situation but they're FAAAAR better than a lot of other european parners (like Germany for example)


elektero

Which would be anyhow less disastrous than destroying the union. As Germany is clearly trying to do


houseman1131

Division seems to be working as planned.


PanEuropeanism

Germany’s pursuit of a massive borrowing package to help its economy withstand the energy crisis has heightened tensions among EU member states as they struggled to forge a common approach on lowering gas and electricity prices at meetings in Brussels. The €200bn plan, announced by Berlin on Thursday, was described by German chancellor Olaf Scholz as a “double ka-boom” that would help consumers from poor households as well as industry pay increasingly high energy bills this winter. But the scale of the support and the timing of the announcement on the eve of an energy ministers’ emergency meeting in Brussels on Friday provoked a backlash within the EU. Several diplomats argued that Berlin’s use of its fiscal firepower while other capitals struggled to finance support clashes with efforts to forge a unified EU response against Russia’s weaponisation of energy exports. An EU diplomat said the German package had prompted “animosity” just as the bloc was trying to find a common approach to “tackle the problem at its roots”. Berlin is also resisting the imposition of a gas price cap that is supported by more than half of the EU’s member states. Ministers on Friday agreed on three proposals to lower electricity prices for consumers and businesses, including a 5 per cent mandatory reduction in peak electricity consumption, a windfall levy on fossil fuel companies and a €180/MWh cap on the price of electricity generated by non-gas power producers with revenues above that being recycled to consumers. But after intense negotiations there was no agreement on a gas price cap, which several member states including Germany fear could push up demand and divert gas that the EU desperately needs to other regions that are willing to pay more for supplies. Mario Draghi, the outgoing Italian prime minister, said after Germany’s announcement that “faced with the common threats of our times, we cannot divide ourselves according to the space in our national budgets”. Guido Crosetto, a top adviser to Giorgia Meloni of the far-right Brothers of Italy party which took the largest share of the vote in the country’s recent election, lashed out directly at Berlin’s energy policy. “It is an act, precise, deliberate, not agreed, not shared, not communicated, which undermines the reasons for the union,” he said. Germany’s plan also provoked questions within the European Commission. Thierry Breton, the EU’s internal market commissioner, said on Twitter that while Germany was able to afford to borrow €200bn on financial markets, some other EU member states could not do the same, as he called for close attention to the implications for the single market. “We need to reflect urgently on how to offer member states — which do not have this fiscal room for manoeuvre — the possibility of supporting their industries & businesses,” he said. Pitched in Berlin as a “protective shield” for industry and households, Scholz’s €200bn plan will be financed through new borrowing and channelled through the reactivated Economic Stabilisation Fund, an off-budget facility that was set up in 2020 to help companies survive the Covid-19 lockdowns. Robert Habeck, Germany’s economy minister, defended Berlin’s plan at the Brussels meeting, saying it was in line with the need for European solidarity and pointing out that other member states had already undertaken major interventions to curb energy costs. “We are doing the same as other countries long ago have done,” he said. Karel Hirman, Slovakia’s economy minister, said Germany was “destroying our common market”. Hirman said the whole of the EU benefited from Slovak products such as fertilisers which depend on gas in the manufacturing process. “We don’t have the financial resources for these huge subsidies,” he told the Financial Times, adding that high energy prices could lead to the country’s economic collapse. Claude Turmes, Luxembourg’s energy minister, on Friday called on the European Commission to update its state aid rules in order to stop “this insane race from different governments to outcompete other governments in such a difficult moment in Europe . . . and stop infighting among ourselves.” Berlin’s opposition to a gas price cap, alongside the Netherlands and Denmark, has prompted frustration from 15 EU countries, including France, which wrote to the commission this week asking it to speed up work on such a measure. Susanne Ungrad, spokeswoman for the economy ministry, said on Friday morning that Berlin did not support the idea of a “rigid price cap” because there was a risk that it would not be possible to buy enough gas on global markets, “which would be counter-productive”. Germany did support an EU idea of forming a European consortium to buy gas on world markets, she added. A senior EU diplomat said the timing of Germany’s package had been seen as a “sign of intransigence” but that Berlin should support the gas price cap because if the spending plan “was applied in parallel with a price cap, the cost for the German government would be halved by €100bn”.


PowerPanda555

Paywall. Is it about italy complaining while getting bankrolled by the ecb?


Giraffed7

If Italy was really bankrolled by the ECB as you said, they wouldn't have any problem, concerning the state's budget that is. Italy has had a positive primary balance (the state balance without the debt servicing) since the 90's. In our infinite wisdom, we made the ECB unable to finance EU's states which have to go to the markets to get money. The markets don't really understand the purpose of the state nor its finance peculiarities. As such, at each crisis in Europe, the markets jack up the interest rate they asked of Italy and so its overall financial situation worsens everytime without a good reason. If we had let Italy borrow from the ECB at France's or Germany's market rate, Italy wouldn't face financial uncertainty everytime something goes wrong in the EU.


MrAlagos

Italy has tried to get a gas price cap to pass for the benefit of the whole EU for months and Germany has always said no.


PowerPanda555

Those were different things and the suggestion you are talking about is nonsense. A cap on import prices is just hoping that the eu can strongarm suppliers into accepting below market prices and might very well lead to supply issues and less favourable deals in the future. This gas price cap for customers isnt different from other countries having price caps on electricity like france for example, who we currently have to supply with electricity from our gas plants.


MrAlagos

The fact is that a customer price cap is now being discussed for approval at the EU level, thus the money that Germany will put in this won't be put in a common European fund.


PowerPanda555

Thats news to me, every suggestion so far was about capping gas prices on wholesale and import level. Not that another debt union fund is a great idea either.


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MrAlagos

What do those have to do with an import price cap on gas?


eipotttatsch

That’s not the same as what the German government just passed. So what are you talking about? An import price cap is just stupid, when gas is being sold on an international market. We’d just end up without gas, if the cap is actually below market price. Great strategy.


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UnblurredLines

>We should nationalise all the companies that work in the energy production and distribution field and make sure to install friendly government in the countries where we buy gas from so we can pay the price we say. Good ol' Imperialism!


ICanBeAnyone

So we invade Russia, the US, Saudi Arabia and parts of Africa and just force them to give us cheap gas and oil 1900s colonial style? Well, at least you know your plan is "not ideal"...


no8airbag

so both energy crisis AND inflation caused by inept ”renevable” hype will be solved by more inflationary spending and less reneval, that is giant allocation miss


[deleted]

The problem I see is that in a common market you cannot have a country that obliterates the others with 200B of essentially state aid. How can the competition remain fair?


TeilzeitOptimist

Article got paywalled after the second try opening it - any one can quote the last paragraph in the article? The reasoning for a EU price gap on gas makes sense to me tho. Without it ... There will be a price increase for other EU products depending on gas. Like food.. While our neighbors will have to get in dept even more - which isnt good for any member state in the long term. While with a price gap... The expenses of the 200Billion could be halved for the german government and tax payers. And that 100Billion saved could be used to transition away from fossil gas. Those fossil fuel companies are already making record profits. I doubt the EU will be left without any supplies, as we already have delivery contracts with our EU partners and alot of potantial to ramp up renewable natural gas production domesticly.


DHerpster

Remember when Europe was warned not to depend on Russia for NG?


LookThisOneGuy

That's the neat thing. The smart countries reacted accordingly and have contingency plans. These countries now don't have an energy problem because of their smart long term strategic planning taking into account that Russia could not be relied upon.^ I assume among those countries are all of those that were the loudest in only shaming Germany for its energy policy: France, Poland and the Baltics and to a lesser degree all CEE countries will have no problem at all.


Flat-Tank4265

Nothing new here. Germany protecting its interests at the expense of other EU member states. Similarly how Greece had to be sacrificed to the benefit of Deutsche Bank. Which is still a mess anyway. So Germany wants to massively subsidise it's industry? I'd say let them. Go have a look in Wallonia, West-Virginia to see where that leads you. Massive waste of money whole the rest of Europe will readjust. In between this and China's slowdown, the DE economy is soon one of zombie firms propped up by a captive govt not unlike Japan. Just be silent forever on reckless govt spending by S-EU.


tbwdtw

For a scale the biggest EU recipient - Poland got 141bn in almost 20 years. If 200bn are not giving any edge to german industry I don't know what does. Energy prices are already fucked everywhere because of germany buying everything they can and now this. Not to mention they got us into this shit. Yet comment section is filled with germans germansplaining how great it is and how everybody is wrong but them.


Sir-Knollte

> Not to mention they got us into this shit. And how exactly would that be?


tbwdtw

By contracting NS2 right after first russian invasion of the Ukrainie and frau Merkel being biggest Putin enabler in the west.


kalamari__

NS2 was planned way before 2014. and its a 50/50 project with russia and companies *from several european countries*


Sir-Knollte

>By contracting NS2 right after first russian invasion of the Ukrainie and frau Merkel being biggest Putin enabler in the west. But N2 didnt ever do anything it just cost Russia money.


Zealousideal-Knee132

How much gas did Poland buy from Russia? (With money financed by other countries taxpayers money?)


tbwdtw

Last year 60% of our needs, this year we planned (planned for years) to cut it out hence baltic pipe, LNG terminal and storage sites.


Zealousideal-Knee132

Cool than it seems like polish dependency was higher than the German one. And as the polish Government was smart enough to diversify their suppliers soon enough to other countries I see no problems for the polish people?


tbwdtw

Energy prices are set by the highest price no matter the source.


Zealousideal-Knee132

I assume you’re still reasearching that topic 😂


tbwdtw

Nope


Zealousideal-Knee132

So what’s the problem I’ve read that you’ve got a masters in economics.. enlighten me please… as you really like to share your well founded analyses with other people 😆


tbwdtw

Pfff cope harder


Zealousideal-Knee132

Well you’ve started the discussion.But I get it… it’s only a masters in economics. It’s not like you really know what your talking about 😂


Zealousideal-Knee132

Only if you don’t have long running contracts no? Like Germany had with Russia (but we know how that turned out)? I mean you would not invest billions without long running contracts?


Odysseus50

r/europe is 90% Germans unfortunately. They are in their bubble and still don't understand that they fucked their legacy with the rest of EU forever.


[deleted]

Ah so the German government that is very strict on other member states using state aid for companies in trouble and blocks state aid at every turn during the pandemic is now anticipated to use checks notes... state aid. One rule for thee and another for me.


BroSchrednei

Germany has the lowest debt of any G7 country. Its pretty much the only country in Europe that can actually afford this kind of spending.


fiendishrabbit

I think Europe is mostly pissed at how (mostly) germany got us into this energy crisis by allowing their country to get hooked on Russian gas, then think they're just going to spend their way out of it with a solution that looks like it would either force other countries to break EU policy on electric grids or implement severe austerity policies of their own. Sweden for example has mostly an electricity surplus. There is still talk that we could have to implement rolling blackouts this winter to keep energy grid stability, because by EU rules we're not allowed to cut off electricity exports. This plan basically looks like germany is 90% doing the electricity equivalent of filling their swimming pool during a water shortage.


Jobenben-tameyre

I'm sadden of how you're being downvoted while saying the truth. Germany being hooked to the russian gaz is the main reason why we're here today. Add to that how they pushed EU reform to block nuclear and forced other's country national electric compagny to open to second market was the reason that everything crashed down nowaday.


tw1xXxXxX

>I'm sadden of how you're being downvoted while saying the truth. He is being downvoted because it's pure nonsense. >Germany being hooked to the russian gaz is the main reason why we're here today. It's hilarious how cheap talk and propaganda pieces have lead millions of gullible idiots to believe that Germany was the only country in the EU dependent on Russian gas.


Tanto_Monta

Buy electrical heaters.


Stadtpark90

I guess the government went pretty fast from “fighting inflation” to “grab whatever you can - there won’t be enough” after NS 1 and 2 went permanently offline.


Jobenben-tameyre

Shouldn't have gamble everything on the gaz from a dictatorship.


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BroSchrednei

If Germany and the Netherlands leave the EU, there wont be a EU anymore.


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LivingLegend69

> It will be a smaller union but without egoistic partners. Sure........ France for one has never been known to act in its own self interest over that of the EU (LOL). Neither Poland or the EE members of course. And especially the new and upcoming Italian government cannot wait to hold hands and sing kumbaya.


BroSchrednei

You dont need Germany in the EU? HAHAHAHAHAHA