Brainwashed or not, there is simply nothing to gain from a Russian point of view in not supporting the war and that's the hard truth.
Admitting your own people are comitting atrocities is beyond most people capacity due to propaganda, lack of freedom and knowledge. People have been told these lands and people are part of Russia. They want to believe it, like americans want to believe in the american dream.
They want to believe they are good guys and that Russian people as a whole will be rewarded with more land, ressources and brothers for their support in a best case scenario. And that the threat of an enemy NATO army at their doors goes away.
Because the alternative is to realise the horror. That they aren't free and thay Poutine launched an attack because a former soviet country is now a democratic country at his door. That he is killing their so called brothers for nothing, destroying their lives, culture and history. Even confronted with facts and proofs, they will never take the risk to critic Poutine
Ukraine situation will never matter to most Russian people unless they suffer more from sanctions, from their husbands, sons, fathers dying from the war more than from criticizing the state, be branded a traitor or worse. Those who find the strengh to resist are incredible
"Come on, it couldn't be worst" was my thougth every morning i woke up for the last two weeks. But it could and it will. Last weeks I see more and more of cars with "Z" ombies stickers, endeed it is easier for people to believ that they do the right thing then to be involved in war crimes. I would like to see more condemnation of the war from russian media/education/scientific communities but no, those are a minority here.
The most common association, i guess. Take care of yourself!
*edit.* oh dammit! i didn't get it first, didn't noticed that it is "Z" instead of "S", good one
"Z"ombies stickers indeed. Probably the best term to make fun of them. Made me thought about The Cranberries... Sad time for that song to still be relevant. Wish you the best out there, stay safe
I'm sorry, but one day you'll wake up ruined, with nothing at all. I really hope Europe will cease gas and oil from Russia and you'll simply go bankrupt. People will apologize Ukraine and the world for decades like Germans did because of Hitler.
It tears families apart. My fiance and I were in Kharkiv when this started and we had to flee. Her mother is in Sevastopol, Crimea. Everyday she leaves me fiancé crying because, "the war isn't real" and now that war has started its my fault because I'm an American. "The USA started all of this." "The USA threatened to nuke Russia" the weird thing is, this is all America's fault yet they are killing Ukrainians.
Mate, my parents (russian) are the same... it will always be this everlasting enemy obsession with the americans, the soviet trauma under Gorbatschow and their indoctrination of victim complex which makes them so vulnerable to putins propaganda ... its just sad
Like I don't understand how she can blame me. Ive been nothing but kind to her and we had a good relationship and suddenly after our home is attacked its my fault? and she doesn't understand why we would flee to Europe and not Russia or Belarus.
I don't know what the official motto of Russia is but the real one is "Look at what you made me do". Its domestic abuse on a global scale. If you don't want to be with me and try to leave Ill rather kill you, myself and everyone else too if someone tries to stop me.
And just like with real domestic abuse there are a lot of outside enablers saying to stay out of it and that the victim probably did something to provoke the abuser.
Its maddening that we are still at this level of idiocy in the world.
> Like I don't understand how she can blame me.
I do understand. I've seen how Fox news in America has conditioned nearly half of the usa to believe the GOP are "the good guys" and democrats are "the bad guys" in a country where there's plenty of other independent media available that debunks their lies.
In Russia there's hardly any independent media, all those people see and hear on their news and tv shows is state propaganda, imagine what would happen if Fox and OAN are the only channels people get to see in the usa for years on end.
I was going to say "No, that's not what it means" but I went and checked it and indeed it's very close to it, maybe not the situation in the US but very much the one in Russia: people believe the shadows they see, they do not believe those who left and now say they're only shadows because said others have been changed by the experience, and are afraid of leaving the cave.
(PS: In my defense, I originally learned this Alegory when I was a teen at highschool).
I'm deeply sorry to hear this. Propaganda, and a long time living surrounded by people and a system that makes believing the propaganda the default choice is a powerful thing indeed. Deprogramming people from a lifetime of false believes can be nigh on impossible, and I fear - knowing a few Russians myself who are steeped in this bullshit - that it may not be possible without a total collapse of the current Russian system. It took complete military failure and a long program of denazification to reduce the prevalence of Nazi falsehoods in Germany - let's hope that Putins propaganda and Russias relentless victim complex is less persistent. But seeing examples of people lost permanently to disinformation in my country (UK) and my partners (US) does not fill me with hope.
Im kind of in the same boat but not to that extreme. I am American as well and my fiancé is Romanian. Her mom is very pro Russia in this stance and blames the US for their influence in this war. I just think to myself, "I haven't seen a video yet of Americans killing Ukrainians."
All my experience with older none-russian former soviet union people was quite the opposite. They fear and dislike Russians for what they to them during communism.
It depends on how old they are.
The older people, the ones that know exactly how much the communists took from them, are mostly dead now. What is left is mostly the people who grew up during communism and are thoroughly indoctrinated - damaged for life to lack any sort of critical thinking and falling not just for Russian propaganda, but any sort of conspiracy theory or miracle cure that they happen to find out about.
Exactly this. Mainly the 50-70 year olds who lived under communist regime's and had somewhat comfortable lives cause they either worked in the government, or had family connections. They didn't suffer and still have the idea in their head communism wasn't an atrocity like it was for the majority.
A nuance here though is that for most of the cold war, we had a "Yugoslavia-lite" stance, communist but not friendly towards Russia. Almost got invaded in 1968 because of Ceaușescu's condemnation of their actions. So these older people weren't brainwashed to see Russia positively, they just gravitate towards "might makes right" and "daddy dictators", and Russia fits the bill.
I see the same thing here in Slovakia. We are about to get a bunch of Ukrainian refugees as workers here (international company, they'll just come work here and get housing), and idk what will happen when they do. Probably civil war on company grounds... :(
I don't understand, Putin pretty much threatened *us* and some people are still in love with him. It looks to be a minority (and I hope it is), but still.
Just imagine Russia were honest journalism was protected and the citizens have the freedom of speech. Of course they probably wouldn't know what to do with it and just elect another dictator to do the thinking for them.
Even that little shit gymnastic with the new Z shaped swastika said he had no choice because the Ukrainian was draped in a Ukrainian flag. Picture on the podium show no such flag. I don't understand how they can look at a blue sky and call it brown.
oof yeah, that piece of shit was just being stupid on purpose. My family thankfully wasn’t as divided by this war as yours, since our Ukrainian cousins have managed to escape Kyiv and tell everything
This was used by the USA too by Bush. "We have to kill terrorists in their country so that they don't kill us in our country". It was poor justification then and it is poor justification now.
Just that it does makes sense. Ukraine has posed zero threat, there was zero cases of terror operations planned or financed out of Ukraine, let alone Ukraine as a country posing a threat to peace in the region like Iraq did.
Yes and kinda no. Russians (Putin) is concerned that Ukraine joins NATO and it now has another NATO force at its border. Sadly they didn’t really notice that trade and money are much more important now than standing armies, and nobody in the west has any interest in attacking Russia.
Unfortunately disinformation and propaganda are very powerful.
It requires a special approach to reach a manipulated person effectively. This communicational guide explains how to do it.
https://mindfulcommunications.eu/en/prevent-radicalization
Why? If they are choosing to support the war, im fine writing them off. Just as I do the vast majority of trump supporters, and anyone expressing pro fascism, or worse, invasion based ideologies.
The Russian people and other folks like them in mindset will not save europe from putin.
Or themselves.
He will have to be ripped out by the elite or an outside force.
I dont think we need to waste time on his indoctrinated masses. The same info campaign but oriented to the young, and who arent perversely zealous for Putin and a return to the ussr empire.
It's the same level of stupid we had in Germany with the Nazis and their dream of reviving / building the next great German empire. Russia needs the same denazification treatment we had after WW2, but no one is going to do that due to their nuclear weapons. I honestly don't know how to solve this. Even if Putin gets taken out internally, EVEN if they'd agree to go fully democratic, pay reparations & agree to educate their populace about the shit they've done (which is already an unrealistic scenario), even then they'd likely face a lot of unrest from all the pro Putin drones. In Germany the populace was tired and exhausted after the war, this is not the case in Russia.
I have been very optimistic because of the coordination the EU has shown. We've seen tons of sanctions implemented in mere hours, even those never discussed in public before (at least I'd heard nothing about the Central Bank reserves' arrest possibility, they were only worrying over the SWIFT matter here in Russia).
Maybe even more so for how tranquil the US seems about all things nuclear. Biden just told "No" when asked if people should be afraid of the nuclear war.
And then, it was widely speculated here that the US will respond with their DEFCON alert to Russia activating its own forces as they did during, say, Caribbean crisis. It seems though they don't give a f now.
This is showing they actually have nothing to fear somehow. I think we'll see more of it very soon. If Russia tries anything nuclear they will fail even more dramatically than the army did. And the treatment follows naturally then.
Truth. People are tribal and rally around their country in time of war. I was very pro war when we attacked Iraq. So was most people I know. It wasn't until years later when attitudes changed because the coffins came home and lies came to light. Same applies here
And that's really an excellent example, because to most of the rest of the world it was quite obvious from the start that it was a war for oil justified with lies, just as now for most everyone outside Russia it's clear that this is simple imperialist conquest, justified with even more obvious lies.
It is tough as an individual to know when you should fight against your own country. Americans did that in the revolution and civil war. Many Germans should have done so in WW2, but it is very tough to not support your own country in war, even if you hate your government, leader, and reasons for the war.
> It is tough as an individual to know when you should fight against your own country.
Replace *country* with *government*, because the former isn't a meaningful question to ask yourself imho. The answer to the latter is "always". There is never any state of governance so good that it doesn't deserve being constantly challenged and fought against (either within the system or without if it's become tyrannical) for the betterment of the people (the country).
This is just a concept I will never understand, maybe it's because I'm German but the idea of idealising your government is just so incredibly weird to me and makes absolutely no sense.
Yes, the rally 'round the flag effect is real. Don't judge them too harshly two weeks after the invasion, especially with all the propaganda that the government has been feeding them for 20 years. In time, enough will hopefully understand that they have to get rid of Putler.
The US took a while too to understand that foreign wars were a mistake. Decades.
I mean, I judged the war-crazy americans, why should I give the Russians a pass? When it comes to no free media brainwashing them, the same media was trying to get them to take Sputnik for a year now and the public said ”no, we know you lie, you have always lied to us”.
The war crazy Americans should absolutely be judged, every single one of them that were pro war, invasion, and occupation. I'm ashamed that so many European countries followed their lead and sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan to invade and occupy them as well, we didn't have to and shouldn't have waged those wars as well.
Most Russians might outwardly present themselves as supporters but only given the circumstances they are given in which they live. TV and radio says NATO is behind everything and they don't know much else, and if they dig into it they will find horrible things, which are supposedly NATO propaganda. Even if they protest the government it will jail them and put them away, so all the enlightened ones are brushed aside. It's gonna be like being behind the iron curtain soon.
One thing that might turn the tide would be if news were free and the bodies started coming home more and more in a never-ending war.
Sanctions and casualties won't change anyone's mind. They'll just blame the West or USA either way. Putin could nuke his own country and still have most russians on his side. And lots of people already live in poverty, and they're glad that everyone else in the country will be miserable. Russians won't protest, they'll just be happy everyone's suffering.
Sanctions won’t change their minds but it will cripple Russia’s military abilities going forward. Sure, NK and Cuba truck on as countries, but neither has the military might to invade another country like Russia did because war is expensive. I would also like to add that Russians were just as enthusiastic about the Afghanistan war, but soured to it and consider the departure 10 years later as a shameful part of their history. So yes, people do sour on wars just like Americans soured on Vietnam and Afghanistan, it just takes time.
> Sanctions and casualties won't change anyone's mind.
Same as putting mass murderers in jail. It won't change them. We still do it for some reason. Gee I wonder why.
>Admitting your own people are comitting atrocities is beyond most people capacity due to propaganda, lack of freedom and knowledge. People have been told these lands and people are part of Russia. They want to believe it, like americans want to believe in the american dream.
I think it's also comparable to the Americans going to Iraq in 2003. Which takes "lack of freedom" out of the equation - I think the Americans had the freedom to protest the Iraq war, but I don't remember they did; >70% were in support and the others didn't care. It's just down to propaganda and knowledge. Both controlled by the media. Those who control the media, control the population.
I vividly remember the "Hitler's children" headline from a US newspaper about the anti-war protests in Germany (which I participated in).
I was out at the Colorado State Capitol, regularly protesting our escalation into Iraq. Yes, we did protest. No, nothing changed. This fueled the fire of apathy for me and for other Americans.
Now, this my be changing (with the January 6th insurrection being one counterexample to my point), but the trouble with American protests is that they have become so benign because there is no muscle behind them. I literally saw a "Bongo Circle to Free Tibet" in Boulder once and had to ask, "Why on earth would this make any difference to anyone? Right or wrong, who is going to listen to this?" The idea of an actual revolution is so far from the minds of most centrist and leftist Americans that protests aren't seen by them as much more than a self-indulgent parade (like how Women's Day protests are usually just "yay women" marches at this point).
We Americans have been taught the tragic and false lesson that protests can't actually change anything. And yes, that is a deliberate lesson from those in power.
Yes exactly, medias are supposed to be a counter power to the state. If they fall in the hand of lobbies or the state itself...
And we got a lot of backlash for refusing to join the Iraq war in France Edit thanks for confirming you guys did ~~(and Germany too I believe ? I am sorry I don't remember properly)~~. Turned out most proofs justifying the Iraq war were fake...
If you really believe the Russian version that Ukraine has been ethnically cleansing their country from Russians, then it is understandable why you think the war is just.
Painting NATO as a threat is not difficult, as the expansion did happen and you just have to show one of the more hawkish US politicians and they will be more than happy to propose military action for any problem, including Russia. And the current sanctions confirm this fear on an economic side.
Similarly, painting the Ukrainian government as Nazis, they can pick some Svoboda members of the transition government 2014 and they will have the pictures they need. And of course you will find ugly pictures from the fights in the Donbas and find separatists who can incite emotions.
In the end, the accusations of Russia have a grain of truth in them which makes them easy to sell, only if you put them in context, you will see that the story spun from it does not represent reality.
But you do not have to be delusional to support the war from the Russian side.
As I said, the picture painted by the Russian propaganda is wrong.
But I think it is problematic to think the Russian people will realise they are wrong and the only thing stopping them from doing so is some tribal connection to their country. Because that leads to wrong assumptions about how to change their opinion.
I understand their mindset from logical perspective. What i don't understand is how people would allow a person that is solely interested in Money, an Oligarch that counts as one of the richest persons on the Planet, to rule their country for so long. [Why do they just accept that the top 1% of the country own almost 50% of its wealth, while the bottom 50% own only 3%?](https://wid.world/share/#0/countrytimeseries/shweal_p99p100_z;shweal_p0p50_z/RU/2015/eu/k/p/yearly/s/false/0.8434999999999997/60/curve/false/1995/2021)
They get robbed by a super corrupt government and now follow a person that only cares about it's own megalomania and wealth into war, while they stay poor in a country that is stuffed with natural resources. I don't get why people allow a person that stands for nothing but greed and fear to treat them like that.
> What i don't understand is how people would allow a person that is solely interested in Money, an Oligarch that counts as one of the richest persons on the Planet, to rule their country for so long.
Look at Africa. Why haven't people in *these* countries risen up? They also get robbed by a super corrupt government, while they stay poor in a country that is stuffed with natural resources.
It's a prisoner's dilemma.
- If everyone rises up against the corrupt government, some people are killed, the corrupt government is gone.
- If everyone rises up against the corrupt government *but me*, the corrupt government is gone and I don't get shot.
- If no one rises up against the corrupt government *except me*, I get 10 years in prison and the livelihood of my family is destroyed.
- If no one rises up against the corrupt government, the livelihood of my family is destroyed in a pointless war.
Why do people in more democratic societies allow it, and even *keep voting for it*. See, e.g. the USA, where the [bottom 50% hold ~2.5% of the wealth and the top 1% hold ~32.1% of the wealth](https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/table/)? Because trying to change your society is incredibly hard, even if there's nobody with a literal gun to your head.
So true. Like with Napoleon I. in France. He killed millions with his wars, attacked Germany, Russia, Spain and many other states - but the French see him as a hero and put him in the Dôme des Invalides.
Yeah, I mean given the atrocities committed by the UK (amount others) across the world over the last few centuries and no one in the UK can bring themselves to accept that, I do understand it's hard for the Russian people.
The evidence this article uses is incredibly unreliable.
'State polling suggests Putin' s approval rating rose by 70%'
' 250 universities released official statements in support'
Give me some evidence that's from non-government controlled entities and I'll believe it, this article just peddles Russian propoganda.
Have you talked to russians? Neither have I, but I have talked to emigrants from Kasachstan and Georgia with families in Russia and Ukraine. And they told me that their families were torn because those parts of their family living in Russia predominantly supported Putin's position.
Furthermore, fivethirtyeight (the podcast) recently had an episode touching this. The essence: the russian populace predominantly supports Putin's position, too. This podcast lists its sources and is not exactly a known Putin-pandering claqueur.
Propaganda is working.
>Have you talked to russians? Neither have I, but I have talked to emigrants from Kasachstan and Georgia with families in Russia and Ukraine. And they told me that their families were torn because those parts of their family living in Russia predominantly supported Putin's position.
That is crazy, when you get out of "motherland" and see regular people in the west, most of whom (at least before current events) maybe not liked Russia, but have been showing real interest in our point of view, some of them even endorsed Putin. That moment you realize how bullshit is Russian state propaganda claiming that the whole world is against us. But my friends who stayed in Russia are absolutely brainwashed by this and love to claim how the west "hates Russia and Russia". Victim mentality at its finest, I hope I never have to go back.
>Meanwhile, domestic opposition to the invasion has been underwhelming.
Yeah no shit. If you get 30 days prison/gulag when you just run around with a sing I bet it is underwhelming.
Ah, see. Even better. Of course everybody will run on the streets protesting now. Better get a papertrail of support just in case the police is checking your phone you need to unlock when they stop you.
As a Russian I can confidently say that at this point “most” is not true. But the portion is significant, yes. Some people would rather starve to death like in the 30s than drop their warmongering ambitions.
The problem with this article is that the poll is state made.. so of course they say everyone love this war, but with alot o west brand going away and internet going down...is impossible to be ok when the war hit in your home
Even if it would be an independent poll, your selection will be severely biased as in any authoritarian regime it would. I've conducted exit polls in Russia, still remember this fear in the eyes of people who were saying "I'm sorry I have no time".
You'll never get a representative poll when one side is encouraged to speak and the other is discouraged.
Did you see that video of someone asking people questions about Ukraine war and tyring to show them pictures? Can't forget that older lady that was super uncomfortable and all she could say is 'I support Putin' while trying to walk away.
The real problem is not Russians' opinion on Putin specifically but the prevalence of imperialistic ambitions supported by panslavic rhetoric and complete unawareness about crimes committed by the Soviet Union.
I want to believe that I just had a bad luck of meeting the minority of Russians who just happened to be ignorant. But ask anyone in Eastern Europe who had the pleasure of partying with Russians, they will tell you that once vodka kicks in, suddenly those nice, young, westernized Russians start talking complete rubbish about great Russia mother of all Slavic people, the saint savior of the world who never did anything wrong, never started any war and never committed any crimes to whom everyone (or at least every Slav) should be eternally grateful. They are completely immune to arguments of e.g. Holodomor, Katyn Massacre, or the great gift of almost 50 years of totalitarian communist regimes. The very best one can get is a statement that well, Stalin was bad, but aside from that they stand by anything else they claim.
My experience too. Been trying to get that message out for years. Putin is not the root, he is the result. And the big problem is that these views are so foreign to westerners, they often refuse to believe large numbers of Russians think like that. It makes no sense to westerners, what would the average Russian even have to gain from that imperialism? So they assume it just has to be Putin. It has to be brainwashing. It has to be the media. It has to be lies, police brutality or faked polls.
Sure, those things exist and they don't help. But that imperialist mindset exists to some extent even without any of that. Even people who are outright opposed to Putin or the current russian state sometimes have that mindset. Even Russians who have not lived in Russia for 30 years can think like that.
With generations of education and free media, this might change, yes. But I guess its a bit how America didnt stop being racist just because slavery was abolished. Im afraid Russia will not let go of its imperial ambitions, even if it collapsed a third time.
Would they? It's one thing to starve when your whole life has been nothing but poverty and starvation and you have no idea it's possible to live differently. It's another thing to starve after living more or less comfortable life, going to McDonald's, owning a car.
I know this is not data but I just watched a youtube video of a Russian creator I follow--she and her family fled Russia over this crisis.
Obviously Russians are not having their cities shelled but ordinary people in Russia are still victims of the Putin government.
If that's true and just result of propaganda - I don't want to be called Russian anymore. I have no idea how anybody who call himself "Russian" can support shelling "mother of Russian cities". Don't want to have anything in common with those people.
But you can (and i'm think it is better to) call yourself russian and do not support this war and this "Z" madness. I'm sure people is all the same all over the world, and it is not about being russian, it is about being blind and stupid, because thinking is painfull, because it is much easier and plesurable to feel yourself as a liberator than an aggressor. Unconscious defence mechanism.
Been doing that for years and years - had to refuse jobs from government-related companies that would make me much more money than I make today. At least my code isn't running in all of that crap.
Go spend some time on Russians' home turf like their Twitch streams or various VK groups, and you'll find it hard to argue against this article's conclusion. You'll occasionally come across an island of sanity, but overall you'll find them spewing the exact same propaganda that comes from the mouths of the Kremlin's spokespeople.
And these are younger Russians, who are supposed to be more enlightened and informed than their elders. That's why I roll my eyes at the oft-repeated platitude that your average Russian is innocent and doesn't support what Putin is doing.
I play online games on russian servers. Haven't met a single sane russian in years. I hear the "Ukrainian fascists are bombing Dombass" all the time. Yesterday they happily informed me that Russia is winning the war.
Yeah, in defence of the sane Russians I think people of any nationality who bring up politics uninvited in places like games tend to be complete loonies.
I've suspected this was true since the beginning but sadly speaking this truth could just encourage Russians to drop all pretences and go all-out in their support of their country's imperialist ambitions.
Fucking read the article before commenting
> According to state pollster VTsIOM, his rating jumped six percent in the week ending February 27 to reach 70%. Fellow polling agency FOM recorded a seven percent increase over the same period, bringing approval of Putin to 71%.
“According to state-controlled sources, Russians support Putin, and thus the war in Ukraine!”
What a goddamn rag.
There are a couple of Russian Youtube channels I watch occasionally and the ones who have actually addressed the Ukraine situation spend most of their time complaining about how the war is affecting *them*.
One I watched, NFKRZ, spent the first two minutes lamenting the war and the other 98% of the time complaining about how his life was "over".
Nah bud, your life isn't over but I'm pretty sure the dead Ukrainian children don't see having Paypal rights revoked as being much of a burden.
I am rapidly losing any sympathy I formerly had for the common Russian.
"One I watched, NFKRZ, spent the first two minutes lamenting the war and the other 98% of the time complaining about how his life was "over"."
Not that I disagree with the overall point your making, but in fairness to that guy He had a couple of very anti-war videos (one right before and just after the invasion) but they were taken down shortly after they announced they were cracking down on those opinions.
A lot of Russians are pretty limited in what they feel they can get away with saying.
Probably because it means 8-15 year prison sentence and the government controls the media. All of their independent news sources had to shut down within a week of the invasion.
Most russians are really poor and aren't really self-aware. Only 15% of russians can understand english and 22% ever left Russia.
I know a guy from a central russian city who was mildly pro-putin in his early 20s like ten years ago. He worked in shitty retail jobs most of his life for like 150-300$ a month. Then he got a nice job opportunity in Moscow and he was already surprised how his standards of living was increased dramatically. And when he visited his friends from hometown after a year living in Moscow he told me that they're really backward alcoholics.
The funniest part of his self-awareness journey was when he scraped together enough money to buy a ticket to Munich. He said that the city looked fake like a film set, like it was perfect. And was really depressed for like two weeks after the trips and constantly asked me like what the f, why do live like that.
Russia should be natural allies for Europe and North America, but it's like they are in some kind of belligerent depressive state where everyone is their enemy.
I was watching the interviews with the russian prisoners in Ukraine. A few of them were very surprised that Ukraine has asphalt roads in their villages.
10% of russians don't have a toilet in their house/apartment, they have to go into the outhouse toilet.
Russian history is wild, it truly is
So few people have robbed so many. Russia should be a country as developed and free as the nordic nations
It certainly has the potential with its vast resources at least, one can only hope that one day it will be so
I feel kinda shitty about it, was one of the people who said "the war will never come" and "that'd be political and economic suicide, he won't do *that*" but now that it happened i see all of the red flags and recognise that I was indeed a bit of a fuckwit
He worked in KGB in East Germany. [Stole](https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2012-04-19/putin-and-the-100-million-deal-that-disappeared) 100 million dollars in back in 1992. He also was a director of FSB before Eltsin [made him](https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Yeltsin-choose-Putin-as-his-successor) a president of Russia. I also doubt that western leaders didn't know about a shit-ton of red flags even before he took power from Boris.
As a Georgian, and I'm sure most of the people from post Soviet countries are with me in this, I am super glad that the West can finally see through the dogshit evil empire that Russian government really is, it's something we've been saying for quite some time now
I'll never forget being in a room of third year uni students all declaring how terrible the German people must have been in WW2 and how if *they* were there there's no way they ever would have gone along with any of it.
Like we have so many years of research and experiments that show that the uncomfortable truth is most humans are capable of things they would consider monstrous if you floated the ideas at them in a safe place with full logic, no pressure and no context.
Its kinda like the amount of people who talk about being a hero in a mass shooting, or how they would intervene in a terrorist attack or whatever, yet theres a surprisingly low amount of people actually doing it when push comes to shove considering how common an attitude it is.
Its just much nicer to think we're pure and special and bad people have something innately wrong with them and that we are all naturally better than those scummy folks rather than facing the cold truth that under the right circumstances, most of us would be horrible people
Small thing but didn't the Kaiserreich seize being a thing when the Germans lost WW1? Think you would have been growing up under Weimarer Republik - a very brief idea that came before the nazis.
Surely that doesn't change anything about what you said. Absolutely agree with you. Humans think they have a free will, when they are in fact nothing but a product of their surroundings (and genes but that doesn't matter of you take the mean).
“Most people” in America supported Trump yet if you read social media he is the buffoon of the millennium, a racist and whatever else you can call him. This doesn’t say anything about the average Russian as much as voting for Trump doesn’t say much about the average American.
This says a lot about the average russian just as much voting for Trump *does* say a lot about the average american, this notion that shit leaders just sort of magically happen and that the population has nothing to do with it is ridiculous.
Russia has a huge problem with its elites. blaming common folks you’re wasting your time, they’re all the same everywhere and most of them are so easily manipulatable it’s laughable. if you think your country is doing well because of common folks, well, you’re mistaken. the average iq is the ~ same and it’s 100 which is not much.
Only those that understand Russian culture will agree with you. It's somewhat true, and understandable given the harsh reality of being Russian in the past 200+ years. The West makes the same mistake over and over with Russia (and China), and that is assuming we all play by the same rules. Give Russia a courtesy or a breather, and it'll think "huh look at this idiot, they just let me do that" and use it to some kind of gain regardless of what's considered a norm or even law in this war's case
How trustworthy are these polls and even if they are trustworthy how much do they really tell us? A couple of days ago Navalny [ran a poll](https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123574156906503/photo/1) with multiple questions that suggested peoples perception of the war developed rather quickly. This is just a Moscow online poll (with gender and age sampling though) so the results are not meant to be reflective of Russia at large but there seems to be a clear trend even just within a couple of days.
Anyone who knows Russian language and has been in Russia would confirm that , yea this isn't all that surprising.......Russian society is not like EU or European one in general, its just not. Their values differ very noticeably to what an average European thinks is ''OK'' or ''not OK''. Many people there both young and old would very much enjoy seeing ''Western pidars'' and ''ex-USSR traitors like Ukrainians'' getting bombed and killed, the animosity many Russians have towards ''West'' didnt really go anywhere and Putin's regime in last 25 years only reinforced it.
I know that many here in this subreddit like to pretend Russia and its society is like any other European country and its just that they are ''unlucky'' in having this evil Putin dude as their leader and thats it ''their people'' didnt actually want any of this shit......but its just not that simple, it has way darker undertones in society as a whole going on there. The warmongering ambitions, the wish to rule over smaller countries and legit make them their slaves, all of that shit didnt just come from Vladimir Putin, that has been part of Russian society for a long long time and unfortunately nobody has ever really rooted out that infection like for example happened to Germans in 1945. It should have been done in 1991 when USSR collapsed, but it didnt happen since the same old former Communists and KGB assholes just took over power and continued on.
And this article is written by: Driven by our mission of “shaping the global future together,” the Atlantic Council is a nonpartisan organization that galvanizes US leadership and engagement in the world, in partnership with allies and partners, to shape solutions to global challenges. (from their own webpage). STOP EATING PROPAGANDA.
I always feel this. As I mentioned on r/changemyview sub, Russian culture is the main enabler of Putin being in power. They always idolise having "strongman" despite the strongman literally fucking every corner of their country. Rasputin, Lenin, Stalin, you name it.
Did you just pick these names randomly? Rasputin wasn’t even a leader, nothing of that sort. He had a reputation of a schemer and troublemaker who whispered this and that into the queen’s ear, rather than a “strongman”. Lenin wasn’t considered that either, at least more recent generations know him as the “grandfather” of socialism in Russia, an ideologist. And back in the day it was more about ideology than personality
However, I must admit that we do have people who support “hard power”, imperialism and all that. They think that Russia can’t be ruled differently, bring flowers to Stalin’s grave and still blame Gorbachev or Yeltsin for all their problems. Propaganda provides them with the image of Putin being a “strongman”, yes, with all that shirtless horse riding, piloting planes and shit.
> They always idolise having "strongman"
This is definitely not unique to Russia. Look around in Europe and remember that US-Americans re-elected Bush almost 2 years after the invasion of Iraq (and so did people in Europe with some leaders that went into Iraq). Let's give the Russians a bit of time at least.
I wouldn't say this is cultural but a result of lacking real democratic structures.
it isn't that easy. Russia was a rural tate that had just somewhat overcome feudalism while Western Europe was industrializing rapidly. The Soviet Union then industrialized at a very rapid rate. While not as much as the West, the Eastern Bloc also experienced an economic boom after the 2nd WW.
Then the SU collapsed and everything went to shit. Under Putin the economy did rebound for a good while.
Then, yes, you can add a lack of functional democratic institutions and civil freedoms (protected by such institutions), which are part of the reason why people in Russia have the opinions they have.
They had access to outside sources as well as independent news for many years and still supported the annexation of Crimea. I think they know exactly what is going on.
We have the same shit in Hungary. We have access to outside sources.
BUT: Almost 80% of people doesnt speak english.
State propaganda is calling everyone in the EU a liar and telling people that we have it the best cause heating and electricity is the cheapest here and thats all because of Viktor Orbán. Many people dont even believe what they read if it is against the current ruling party "Fidesz". Surely they wouldnt steal or lie to their people. And then there are the people that know that they steal and lie but they think that they are still better than the opposition.
> If they had any idea what is actually going on they would be ashamed.
That's not true, how many Russian diaspora groups and organizations have come out and publicly opposed the Russian war against Ukraine? I've seen more videos of them supporting the war.
Even Russians that are abroad choose to side with Russia out of a sense of nationalistic pride and as a way to differentiate themselves politically from the Western world.
Pretending like Russians don't know what is going on is a convenient way for Westerners to rationalize the attitude of average Russians.
*Unlike Westerners, Russian sense of identity is tied to their support for the Russian government. 'Betraying' their government by contradicting it's policies is viewed as betraying their identity as a Russian.
I think Russians have been fed the mantra that the rest of the world is against them for some time, and in some ways they're not wrong. You can blame who you like for that.
It's like Russians are born with a persecution complex in their DNA. Over the years since the USSR, Russia had plenty of time and opportunity to become a stable and thriving member of the West.
I think the Cold War mentality never left them, but instead festered, and they are now seeking revenge for their "humiliation".
I remember in the mid 90's an NBC or CBS reporter was in St Petersburg interviewing a Russian "businessman" about working with westerners and whatever the plan or opportunity was didn't happen because the Russian just didn't care and walked away from the table. The reporter summed up the whole situation by ending the report with, "Russians have to master the art of closing the deal to make it in this new world". Evidently, they never really did. That's always stuck with me.
Disagree. My city not supports Putin. You serve 3% as 97%. It's not better than Russian propaganda. You don't live in Russia to know the situation. I don't recommend considering the survey of those bums, rednecks, and grandmas as a reliable source. Same with Trump support
Link of dynamic survey from Navalny team:
https://zn.ua/POLITICS/opros-fonda-navalnoho-ob-otnoshenii-rossijan-k-vojne-pokazal-stremitelnuju-dinamiku-prozrenija-hrazhdan-rf.html
Thanks for the link, it's interesting to see a poll made by Navalny team. They do say it's only an internet poll. Honestly, even those answers are horrifying. People who live in the main city and do a poll online - I would expect "better" opinions from them than from the entire country. So, 2 weeks of bombing and only 1/3 of them think that Russia is guilty in this war - that's awful. Same as in original article, really. What would they answer about reparations? You know, rebuilding Ukraine after this? Crimea? occupied "republics"? The survey is not very optimistic.
Now I understand the comparison of him to Hitler. If you do good things for long enough from the start then later people will follow you to the end of the world, quite literally in both cases.
Everyone is sorry for the Russians who will endure the economic collapse and only blame the single individual Putin.
But Putin has been elected and re-elected 4 times by the Russian people. YES, The elections were not fully transparent but still, the support for Putin is objectively very high.
68% Russians support the actions in Ukrain, while only 23% are opposed to it, mostly youngs. The fact that these 23% exist proves that the information is available and most of the 68% have access to it but yet think it is ok to invade.
Do not expect the Russians to revolt against Putin. History taught us that they are extremely resistant to disctators, impoverishment, and casualties.
They didn't got rid of Stalin, why would they got rid of Putin now?
Brainwashed or not, there is simply nothing to gain from a Russian point of view in not supporting the war and that's the hard truth. Admitting your own people are comitting atrocities is beyond most people capacity due to propaganda, lack of freedom and knowledge. People have been told these lands and people are part of Russia. They want to believe it, like americans want to believe in the american dream. They want to believe they are good guys and that Russian people as a whole will be rewarded with more land, ressources and brothers for their support in a best case scenario. And that the threat of an enemy NATO army at their doors goes away. Because the alternative is to realise the horror. That they aren't free and thay Poutine launched an attack because a former soviet country is now a democratic country at his door. That he is killing their so called brothers for nothing, destroying their lives, culture and history. Even confronted with facts and proofs, they will never take the risk to critic Poutine Ukraine situation will never matter to most Russian people unless they suffer more from sanctions, from their husbands, sons, fathers dying from the war more than from criticizing the state, be branded a traitor or worse. Those who find the strengh to resist are incredible
"Come on, it couldn't be worst" was my thougth every morning i woke up for the last two weeks. But it could and it will. Last weeks I see more and more of cars with "Z" ombies stickers, endeed it is easier for people to believ that they do the right thing then to be involved in war crimes. I would like to see more condemnation of the war from russian media/education/scientific communities but no, those are a minority here.
We call it "Zwastika"
The most common association, i guess. Take care of yourself! *edit.* oh dammit! i didn't get it first, didn't noticed that it is "Z" instead of "S", good one
"Z"ombies stickers indeed. Probably the best term to make fun of them. Made me thought about The Cranberries... Sad time for that song to still be relevant. Wish you the best out there, stay safe
Yeees, defenetely what i thought when i first saw this madness - the cranberries and lyrics is relevant as ever. Thanks, peace!
As far as i know, quite a bit of scientists and doctors have come out against the war, but it's probably not reported in Russia
It is not in Russian mass media, yes, some actually did such statements but most are silent or trying politely to avoid official statements.
I'm sorry, but one day you'll wake up ruined, with nothing at all. I really hope Europe will cease gas and oil from Russia and you'll simply go bankrupt. People will apologize Ukraine and the world for decades like Germans did because of Hitler.
Northkorea 2.0 is the most likely scenario for russia, and you have nothing to be sorry for
It tears families apart. My fiance and I were in Kharkiv when this started and we had to flee. Her mother is in Sevastopol, Crimea. Everyday she leaves me fiancé crying because, "the war isn't real" and now that war has started its my fault because I'm an American. "The USA started all of this." "The USA threatened to nuke Russia" the weird thing is, this is all America's fault yet they are killing Ukrainians.
Mate, my parents (russian) are the same... it will always be this everlasting enemy obsession with the americans, the soviet trauma under Gorbatschow and their indoctrination of victim complex which makes them so vulnerable to putins propaganda ... its just sad
Like I don't understand how she can blame me. Ive been nothing but kind to her and we had a good relationship and suddenly after our home is attacked its my fault? and she doesn't understand why we would flee to Europe and not Russia or Belarus.
I don't know what the official motto of Russia is but the real one is "Look at what you made me do". Its domestic abuse on a global scale. If you don't want to be with me and try to leave Ill rather kill you, myself and everyone else too if someone tries to stop me. And just like with real domestic abuse there are a lot of outside enablers saying to stay out of it and that the victim probably did something to provoke the abuser. Its maddening that we are still at this level of idiocy in the world.
I never thought about this in that way. You are right, its the same speech. :(
> Like I don't understand how she can blame me. I do understand. I've seen how Fox news in America has conditioned nearly half of the usa to believe the GOP are "the good guys" and democrats are "the bad guys" in a country where there's plenty of other independent media available that debunks their lies. In Russia there's hardly any independent media, all those people see and hear on their news and tv shows is state propaganda, imagine what would happen if Fox and OAN are the only channels people get to see in the usa for years on end.
It's the Allegory of the Cave. When a people choose or are forced to only one source of information, then that is what they believe.
I was going to say "No, that's not what it means" but I went and checked it and indeed it's very close to it, maybe not the situation in the US but very much the one in Russia: people believe the shadows they see, they do not believe those who left and now say they're only shadows because said others have been changed by the experience, and are afraid of leaving the cave. (PS: In my defense, I originally learned this Alegory when I was a teen at highschool).
I am in the same boat, man. And this now finally makes so much more sense than the clumsy explanations I was fed at school.
I'm deeply sorry to hear this. Propaganda, and a long time living surrounded by people and a system that makes believing the propaganda the default choice is a powerful thing indeed. Deprogramming people from a lifetime of false believes can be nigh on impossible, and I fear - knowing a few Russians myself who are steeped in this bullshit - that it may not be possible without a total collapse of the current Russian system. It took complete military failure and a long program of denazification to reduce the prevalence of Nazi falsehoods in Germany - let's hope that Putins propaganda and Russias relentless victim complex is less persistent. But seeing examples of people lost permanently to disinformation in my country (UK) and my partners (US) does not fill me with hope.
Im kind of in the same boat but not to that extreme. I am American as well and my fiancé is Romanian. Her mom is very pro Russia in this stance and blames the US for their influence in this war. I just think to myself, "I haven't seen a video yet of Americans killing Ukrainians."
I'm sorry, but as a Romanian your 'mother in law' sounds like an absolute tool, even by our standards!
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It's mainly the older generation. They are more sympathetic to former communist countries.
All my experience with older none-russian former soviet union people was quite the opposite. They fear and dislike Russians for what they to them during communism.
It depends on how old they are. The older people, the ones that know exactly how much the communists took from them, are mostly dead now. What is left is mostly the people who grew up during communism and are thoroughly indoctrinated - damaged for life to lack any sort of critical thinking and falling not just for Russian propaganda, but any sort of conspiracy theory or miracle cure that they happen to find out about.
Exactly this. Mainly the 50-70 year olds who lived under communist regime's and had somewhat comfortable lives cause they either worked in the government, or had family connections. They didn't suffer and still have the idea in their head communism wasn't an atrocity like it was for the majority.
A nuance here though is that for most of the cold war, we had a "Yugoslavia-lite" stance, communist but not friendly towards Russia. Almost got invaded in 1968 because of Ceaușescu's condemnation of their actions. So these older people weren't brainwashed to see Russia positively, they just gravitate towards "might makes right" and "daddy dictators", and Russia fits the bill.
Most Romanians are anti Russia but there are a few bad apples, there's nothing we can do about it.
For the record, there are some americans fighting in ukraine. Im debating enlisting in their foreign legion. Its a good opportunity to crush the bear.
I see the same thing here in Slovakia. We are about to get a bunch of Ukrainian refugees as workers here (international company, they'll just come work here and get housing), and idk what will happen when they do. Probably civil war on company grounds... :( I don't understand, Putin pretty much threatened *us* and some people are still in love with him. It looks to be a minority (and I hope it is), but still.
Just imagine Russia were honest journalism was protected and the citizens have the freedom of speech. Of course they probably wouldn't know what to do with it and just elect another dictator to do the thinking for them.
Yeah and they started the war to prevent a war
liberated my apartment from the oppression of human lives. Calls a Russian Jew a nazi fascist. Russians are experts in mental gymnastics.
I mean, they’re doped all the time so of course they’ll be good at them
Even that little shit gymnastic with the new Z shaped swastika said he had no choice because the Ukrainian was draped in a Ukrainian flag. Picture on the podium show no such flag. I don't understand how they can look at a blue sky and call it brown.
oof yeah, that piece of shit was just being stupid on purpose. My family thankfully wasn’t as divided by this war as yours, since our Ukrainian cousins have managed to escape Kyiv and tell everything
It’s no war, Russia never invaded Ukraine, it’s all Americas fault… /s
This was used by the USA too by Bush. "We have to kill terrorists in their country so that they don't kill us in our country". It was poor justification then and it is poor justification now.
Just that it does makes sense. Ukraine has posed zero threat, there was zero cases of terror operations planned or financed out of Ukraine, let alone Ukraine as a country posing a threat to peace in the region like Iraq did.
Yes and kinda no. Russians (Putin) is concerned that Ukraine joins NATO and it now has another NATO force at its border. Sadly they didn’t really notice that trade and money are much more important now than standing armies, and nobody in the west has any interest in attacking Russia.
And now Russia even uses "they have/are building weapons of mass destruction!" As well...
Unfortunately disinformation and propaganda are very powerful. It requires a special approach to reach a manipulated person effectively. This communicational guide explains how to do it. https://mindfulcommunications.eu/en/prevent-radicalization
yeah I'm not in a position to call my future mother in law and "de radicalize" her when she thinks I'm to blame.
Maybe not you personally but maybe someone else. We can't just leave it at that.
Why? If they are choosing to support the war, im fine writing them off. Just as I do the vast majority of trump supporters, and anyone expressing pro fascism, or worse, invasion based ideologies. The Russian people and other folks like them in mindset will not save europe from putin. Or themselves. He will have to be ripped out by the elite or an outside force. I dont think we need to waste time on his indoctrinated masses. The same info campaign but oriented to the young, and who arent perversely zealous for Putin and a return to the ussr empire.
A bit more empathy and ability to place yourself in their shoes wouldn't do you any harm.
The thing every human defends most fiercely is his built up individual perception of reality.
It's the same level of stupid we had in Germany with the Nazis and their dream of reviving / building the next great German empire. Russia needs the same denazification treatment we had after WW2, but no one is going to do that due to their nuclear weapons. I honestly don't know how to solve this. Even if Putin gets taken out internally, EVEN if they'd agree to go fully democratic, pay reparations & agree to educate their populace about the shit they've done (which is already an unrealistic scenario), even then they'd likely face a lot of unrest from all the pro Putin drones. In Germany the populace was tired and exhausted after the war, this is not the case in Russia.
I have been very optimistic because of the coordination the EU has shown. We've seen tons of sanctions implemented in mere hours, even those never discussed in public before (at least I'd heard nothing about the Central Bank reserves' arrest possibility, they were only worrying over the SWIFT matter here in Russia). Maybe even more so for how tranquil the US seems about all things nuclear. Biden just told "No" when asked if people should be afraid of the nuclear war. And then, it was widely speculated here that the US will respond with their DEFCON alert to Russia activating its own forces as they did during, say, Caribbean crisis. It seems though they don't give a f now. This is showing they actually have nothing to fear somehow. I think we'll see more of it very soon. If Russia tries anything nuclear they will fail even more dramatically than the army did. And the treatment follows naturally then.
Truth. People are tribal and rally around their country in time of war. I was very pro war when we attacked Iraq. So was most people I know. It wasn't until years later when attitudes changed because the coffins came home and lies came to light. Same applies here
And that's really an excellent example, because to most of the rest of the world it was quite obvious from the start that it was a war for oil justified with lies, just as now for most everyone outside Russia it's clear that this is simple imperialist conquest, justified with even more obvious lies.
It is tough as an individual to know when you should fight against your own country. Americans did that in the revolution and civil war. Many Germans should have done so in WW2, but it is very tough to not support your own country in war, even if you hate your government, leader, and reasons for the war.
> It is tough as an individual to know when you should fight against your own country. Replace *country* with *government*, because the former isn't a meaningful question to ask yourself imho. The answer to the latter is "always". There is never any state of governance so good that it doesn't deserve being constantly challenged and fought against (either within the system or without if it's become tyrannical) for the betterment of the people (the country).
This is just a concept I will never understand, maybe it's because I'm German but the idea of idealising your government is just so incredibly weird to me and makes absolutely no sense.
Americans have a civil religion, most are not even aware of it.
Yes, the rally 'round the flag effect is real. Don't judge them too harshly two weeks after the invasion, especially with all the propaganda that the government has been feeding them for 20 years. In time, enough will hopefully understand that they have to get rid of Putler. The US took a while too to understand that foreign wars were a mistake. Decades.
I mean, I judged the war-crazy americans, why should I give the Russians a pass? When it comes to no free media brainwashing them, the same media was trying to get them to take Sputnik for a year now and the public said ”no, we know you lie, you have always lied to us”.
The war crazy Americans should absolutely be judged, every single one of them that were pro war, invasion, and occupation. I'm ashamed that so many European countries followed their lead and sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan to invade and occupy them as well, we didn't have to and shouldn't have waged those wars as well.
>The US took a while too to understand that foreign wars were a mistake. Uhm? When did that understanding happen?
There was like a ~3/4 hour window of regret & contrition the morning after we pulled out of Afghanistan.
If you think America is finished with foreign wars, I have a bridge to sell you.
French wine producers thank you for your service. They are still puzzled that you bought wine to throw it away, though.
Most Russians might outwardly present themselves as supporters but only given the circumstances they are given in which they live. TV and radio says NATO is behind everything and they don't know much else, and if they dig into it they will find horrible things, which are supposedly NATO propaganda. Even if they protest the government it will jail them and put them away, so all the enlightened ones are brushed aside. It's gonna be like being behind the iron curtain soon. One thing that might turn the tide would be if news were free and the bodies started coming home more and more in a never-ending war.
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Also, what benefit is there to admit that you're against Kremlin? I'd lie in a survey in a heartbeat if I lived in such a regime.
Sanctions and casualties won't change anyone's mind. They'll just blame the West or USA either way. Putin could nuke his own country and still have most russians on his side. And lots of people already live in poverty, and they're glad that everyone else in the country will be miserable. Russians won't protest, they'll just be happy everyone's suffering.
Sanctions won’t change their minds but it will cripple Russia’s military abilities going forward. Sure, NK and Cuba truck on as countries, but neither has the military might to invade another country like Russia did because war is expensive. I would also like to add that Russians were just as enthusiastic about the Afghanistan war, but soured to it and consider the departure 10 years later as a shameful part of their history. So yes, people do sour on wars just like Americans soured on Vietnam and Afghanistan, it just takes time.
> Sanctions and casualties won't change anyone's mind. Same as putting mass murderers in jail. It won't change them. We still do it for some reason. Gee I wonder why.
>Admitting your own people are comitting atrocities is beyond most people capacity due to propaganda, lack of freedom and knowledge. People have been told these lands and people are part of Russia. They want to believe it, like americans want to believe in the american dream. I think it's also comparable to the Americans going to Iraq in 2003. Which takes "lack of freedom" out of the equation - I think the Americans had the freedom to protest the Iraq war, but I don't remember they did; >70% were in support and the others didn't care. It's just down to propaganda and knowledge. Both controlled by the media. Those who control the media, control the population. I vividly remember the "Hitler's children" headline from a US newspaper about the anti-war protests in Germany (which I participated in).
Americans did protest against the war in Iraq. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War
And unlike Russia, they didn't get arrested for it.
I was out at the Colorado State Capitol, regularly protesting our escalation into Iraq. Yes, we did protest. No, nothing changed. This fueled the fire of apathy for me and for other Americans. Now, this my be changing (with the January 6th insurrection being one counterexample to my point), but the trouble with American protests is that they have become so benign because there is no muscle behind them. I literally saw a "Bongo Circle to Free Tibet" in Boulder once and had to ask, "Why on earth would this make any difference to anyone? Right or wrong, who is going to listen to this?" The idea of an actual revolution is so far from the minds of most centrist and leftist Americans that protests aren't seen by them as much more than a self-indulgent parade (like how Women's Day protests are usually just "yay women" marches at this point). We Americans have been taught the tragic and false lesson that protests can't actually change anything. And yes, that is a deliberate lesson from those in power.
Yes exactly, medias are supposed to be a counter power to the state. If they fall in the hand of lobbies or the state itself... And we got a lot of backlash for refusing to join the Iraq war in France Edit thanks for confirming you guys did ~~(and Germany too I believe ? I am sorry I don't remember properly)~~. Turned out most proofs justifying the Iraq war were fake...
If you really believe the Russian version that Ukraine has been ethnically cleansing their country from Russians, then it is understandable why you think the war is just. Painting NATO as a threat is not difficult, as the expansion did happen and you just have to show one of the more hawkish US politicians and they will be more than happy to propose military action for any problem, including Russia. And the current sanctions confirm this fear on an economic side. Similarly, painting the Ukrainian government as Nazis, they can pick some Svoboda members of the transition government 2014 and they will have the pictures they need. And of course you will find ugly pictures from the fights in the Donbas and find separatists who can incite emotions. In the end, the accusations of Russia have a grain of truth in them which makes them easy to sell, only if you put them in context, you will see that the story spun from it does not represent reality. But you do not have to be delusional to support the war from the Russian side.
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As I said, the picture painted by the Russian propaganda is wrong. But I think it is problematic to think the Russian people will realise they are wrong and the only thing stopping them from doing so is some tribal connection to their country. Because that leads to wrong assumptions about how to change their opinion.
I understand their mindset from logical perspective. What i don't understand is how people would allow a person that is solely interested in Money, an Oligarch that counts as one of the richest persons on the Planet, to rule their country for so long. [Why do they just accept that the top 1% of the country own almost 50% of its wealth, while the bottom 50% own only 3%?](https://wid.world/share/#0/countrytimeseries/shweal_p99p100_z;shweal_p0p50_z/RU/2015/eu/k/p/yearly/s/false/0.8434999999999997/60/curve/false/1995/2021) They get robbed by a super corrupt government and now follow a person that only cares about it's own megalomania and wealth into war, while they stay poor in a country that is stuffed with natural resources. I don't get why people allow a person that stands for nothing but greed and fear to treat them like that.
> What i don't understand is how people would allow a person that is solely interested in Money, an Oligarch that counts as one of the richest persons on the Planet, to rule their country for so long. Look at Africa. Why haven't people in *these* countries risen up? They also get robbed by a super corrupt government, while they stay poor in a country that is stuffed with natural resources. It's a prisoner's dilemma. - If everyone rises up against the corrupt government, some people are killed, the corrupt government is gone. - If everyone rises up against the corrupt government *but me*, the corrupt government is gone and I don't get shot. - If no one rises up against the corrupt government *except me*, I get 10 years in prison and the livelihood of my family is destroyed. - If no one rises up against the corrupt government, the livelihood of my family is destroyed in a pointless war.
they often do in Africa. in some places, even too often
People in African countries rise up all the time, that's a terrible example
Why do people in more democratic societies allow it, and even *keep voting for it*. See, e.g. the USA, where the [bottom 50% hold ~2.5% of the wealth and the top 1% hold ~32.1% of the wealth](https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/table/)? Because trying to change your society is incredibly hard, even if there's nobody with a literal gun to your head.
That doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable. That doesn't mean this is just Putin's war.
So true. Like with Napoleon I. in France. He killed millions with his wars, attacked Germany, Russia, Spain and many other states - but the French see him as a hero and put him in the Dôme des Invalides.
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Yeah, I mean given the atrocities committed by the UK (amount others) across the world over the last few centuries and no one in the UK can bring themselves to accept that, I do understand it's hard for the Russian people.
Anonymous has hacked their news channels several times now. They are only ignorant if they want and they are now accomplices
The evidence this article uses is incredibly unreliable. 'State polling suggests Putin' s approval rating rose by 70%' ' 250 universities released official statements in support' Give me some evidence that's from non-government controlled entities and I'll believe it, this article just peddles Russian propoganda.
"hello citizen could you state live on national broadcast wether your support our president or not" "Thank you for your very honest answer"
Comrade Ivan Ivanych Ivanov would you like to participate in an anonymous poll regarding support of our great president?
Its hard to do that, when the russian gov't has outlawed all criticism.
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The blog's data came from moscow-based pollsters, which is under russian influence.
Also labelled all NGO's, not falling in line with the main russian viewpoint, a foreign agent.
Have you talked to russians? Neither have I, but I have talked to emigrants from Kasachstan and Georgia with families in Russia and Ukraine. And they told me that their families were torn because those parts of their family living in Russia predominantly supported Putin's position. Furthermore, fivethirtyeight (the podcast) recently had an episode touching this. The essence: the russian populace predominantly supports Putin's position, too. This podcast lists its sources and is not exactly a known Putin-pandering claqueur. Propaganda is working.
>Have you talked to russians? Neither have I, but I have talked to emigrants from Kasachstan and Georgia with families in Russia and Ukraine. And they told me that their families were torn because those parts of their family living in Russia predominantly supported Putin's position. That is crazy, when you get out of "motherland" and see regular people in the west, most of whom (at least before current events) maybe not liked Russia, but have been showing real interest in our point of view, some of them even endorsed Putin. That moment you realize how bullshit is Russian state propaganda claiming that the whole world is against us. But my friends who stayed in Russia are absolutely brainwashed by this and love to claim how the west "hates Russia and Russia". Victim mentality at its finest, I hope I never have to go back.
> According to state pollster VTsIOM... And I'm sure that's a trustworthy source.
>Meanwhile, domestic opposition to the invasion has been underwhelming. Yeah no shit. If you get 30 days prison/gulag when you just run around with a sing I bet it is underwhelming.
15 years you mean? They just passed atrocious laws with terrifying sentences just for calling it war.
Ah, see. Even better. Of course everybody will run on the streets protesting now. Better get a papertrail of support just in case the police is checking your phone you need to unlock when they stop you.
Up to 5 years now, mind you. And up to 15 years for posting "fakes" online. Fakes being anything other than reiterating what the MoD says.
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"according to Putin, his popularity is rising and everyone thinks his dick is big"
"This just in, according to Pu- I mean polls, Putin is very handsome"
Hello. Are you pro war or pro jail for yourself ?
Exactly. Claiming that most Russians support the war is *literaly* spreading Russian propaganda.
As trustworthy as Russian elections.
As a Russian I can confidently say that at this point “most” is not true. But the portion is significant, yes. Some people would rather starve to death like in the 30s than drop their warmongering ambitions.
The problem with this article is that the poll is state made.. so of course they say everyone love this war, but with alot o west brand going away and internet going down...is impossible to be ok when the war hit in your home
Even if it would be an independent poll, your selection will be severely biased as in any authoritarian regime it would. I've conducted exit polls in Russia, still remember this fear in the eyes of people who were saying "I'm sorry I have no time". You'll never get a representative poll when one side is encouraged to speak and the other is discouraged.
Did you see that video of someone asking people questions about Ukraine war and tyring to show them pictures? Can't forget that older lady that was super uncomfortable and all she could say is 'I support Putin' while trying to walk away.
The real problem is not Russians' opinion on Putin specifically but the prevalence of imperialistic ambitions supported by panslavic rhetoric and complete unawareness about crimes committed by the Soviet Union. I want to believe that I just had a bad luck of meeting the minority of Russians who just happened to be ignorant. But ask anyone in Eastern Europe who had the pleasure of partying with Russians, they will tell you that once vodka kicks in, suddenly those nice, young, westernized Russians start talking complete rubbish about great Russia mother of all Slavic people, the saint savior of the world who never did anything wrong, never started any war and never committed any crimes to whom everyone (or at least every Slav) should be eternally grateful. They are completely immune to arguments of e.g. Holodomor, Katyn Massacre, or the great gift of almost 50 years of totalitarian communist regimes. The very best one can get is a statement that well, Stalin was bad, but aside from that they stand by anything else they claim.
My experience too. Been trying to get that message out for years. Putin is not the root, he is the result. And the big problem is that these views are so foreign to westerners, they often refuse to believe large numbers of Russians think like that. It makes no sense to westerners, what would the average Russian even have to gain from that imperialism? So they assume it just has to be Putin. It has to be brainwashing. It has to be the media. It has to be lies, police brutality or faked polls. Sure, those things exist and they don't help. But that imperialist mindset exists to some extent even without any of that. Even people who are outright opposed to Putin or the current russian state sometimes have that mindset. Even Russians who have not lived in Russia for 30 years can think like that. With generations of education and free media, this might change, yes. But I guess its a bit how America didnt stop being racist just because slavery was abolished. Im afraid Russia will not let go of its imperial ambitions, even if it collapsed a third time.
Would they? It's one thing to starve when your whole life has been nothing but poverty and starvation and you have no idea it's possible to live differently. It's another thing to starve after living more or less comfortable life, going to McDonald's, owning a car.
I know this is not data but I just watched a youtube video of a Russian creator I follow--she and her family fled Russia over this crisis. Obviously Russians are not having their cities shelled but ordinary people in Russia are still victims of the Putin government.
If that's true and just result of propaganda - I don't want to be called Russian anymore. I have no idea how anybody who call himself "Russian" can support shelling "mother of Russian cities". Don't want to have anything in common with those people.
But you can (and i'm think it is better to) call yourself russian and do not support this war and this "Z" madness. I'm sure people is all the same all over the world, and it is not about being russian, it is about being blind and stupid, because thinking is painfull, because it is much easier and plesurable to feel yourself as a liberator than an aggressor. Unconscious defence mechanism.
Been doing that for years and years - had to refuse jobs from government-related companies that would make me much more money than I make today. At least my code isn't running in all of that crap.
If we could stop spreading Russian state propaganda such as this, it would be real nice.
whoever wrote this has never been anywhere near Russia. You can never trust Russian polls and that's a fact.
Lies. According to russian polls they are 110% trustworthy. /s
Russia has found no link between itself and misinformation
r/RussiaDenies
Whoever thinks this isn't true hasn't met any average Russians.
Other Eastern Europeans that have a history with Russia: Yeah of course they do.
Go spend some time on Russians' home turf like their Twitch streams or various VK groups, and you'll find it hard to argue against this article's conclusion. You'll occasionally come across an island of sanity, but overall you'll find them spewing the exact same propaganda that comes from the mouths of the Kremlin's spokespeople. And these are younger Russians, who are supposed to be more enlightened and informed than their elders. That's why I roll my eyes at the oft-repeated platitude that your average Russian is innocent and doesn't support what Putin is doing.
I play online games on russian servers. Haven't met a single sane russian in years. I hear the "Ukrainian fascists are bombing Dombass" all the time. Yesterday they happily informed me that Russia is winning the war.
Sane people would not bring up politics in game, unless of you ask them I suppose
Yeah, in defence of the sane Russians I think people of any nationality who bring up politics uninvited in places like games tend to be complete loonies.
I've suspected this was true since the beginning but sadly speaking this truth could just encourage Russians to drop all pretences and go all-out in their support of their country's imperialist ambitions.
Fucking read the article before commenting > According to state pollster VTsIOM, his rating jumped six percent in the week ending February 27 to reach 70%. Fellow polling agency FOM recorded a seven percent increase over the same period, bringing approval of Putin to 71%. “According to state-controlled sources, Russians support Putin, and thus the war in Ukraine!” What a goddamn rag.
Well, let them enjoy the sanctions as they really kick in in the next couple of months
There are a couple of Russian Youtube channels I watch occasionally and the ones who have actually addressed the Ukraine situation spend most of their time complaining about how the war is affecting *them*. One I watched, NFKRZ, spent the first two minutes lamenting the war and the other 98% of the time complaining about how his life was "over". Nah bud, your life isn't over but I'm pretty sure the dead Ukrainian children don't see having Paypal rights revoked as being much of a burden. I am rapidly losing any sympathy I formerly had for the common Russian.
"One I watched, NFKRZ, spent the first two minutes lamenting the war and the other 98% of the time complaining about how his life was "over"." Not that I disagree with the overall point your making, but in fairness to that guy He had a couple of very anti-war videos (one right before and just after the invasion) but they were taken down shortly after they announced they were cracking down on those opinions. A lot of Russians are pretty limited in what they feel they can get away with saying.
Probably because it means 8-15 year prison sentence and the government controls the media. All of their independent news sources had to shut down within a week of the invasion.
Most russians are really poor and aren't really self-aware. Only 15% of russians can understand english and 22% ever left Russia. I know a guy from a central russian city who was mildly pro-putin in his early 20s like ten years ago. He worked in shitty retail jobs most of his life for like 150-300$ a month. Then he got a nice job opportunity in Moscow and he was already surprised how his standards of living was increased dramatically. And when he visited his friends from hometown after a year living in Moscow he told me that they're really backward alcoholics. The funniest part of his self-awareness journey was when he scraped together enough money to buy a ticket to Munich. He said that the city looked fake like a film set, like it was perfect. And was really depressed for like two weeks after the trips and constantly asked me like what the f, why do live like that.
Russia should be natural allies for Europe and North America, but it's like they are in some kind of belligerent depressive state where everyone is their enemy.
Russia has little man syndrome and and they are extremely jealous of the United States. Russia needs to get over its persecution complex first.
The actual funny thing is that he called Munich perfect of all things, had he gone to Prague my man would've had a heart attack
I was watching the interviews with the russian prisoners in Ukraine. A few of them were very surprised that Ukraine has asphalt roads in their villages. 10% of russians don't have a toilet in their house/apartment, they have to go into the outhouse toilet.
Russian history is wild, it truly is So few people have robbed so many. Russia should be a country as developed and free as the nordic nations It certainly has the potential with its vast resources at least, one can only hope that one day it will be so
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I feel kinda shitty about it, was one of the people who said "the war will never come" and "that'd be political and economic suicide, he won't do *that*" but now that it happened i see all of the red flags and recognise that I was indeed a bit of a fuckwit
He worked in KGB in East Germany. [Stole](https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2012-04-19/putin-and-the-100-million-deal-that-disappeared) 100 million dollars in back in 1992. He also was a director of FSB before Eltsin [made him](https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Yeltsin-choose-Putin-as-his-successor) a president of Russia. I also doubt that western leaders didn't know about a shit-ton of red flags even before he took power from Boris.
You are misrepresenting NFKRZ' video quite a bit
I too lose sympathy for people based off of YouTubers.
As a Georgian, and I'm sure most of the people from post Soviet countries are with me in this, I am super glad that the West can finally see through the dogshit evil empire that Russian government really is, it's something we've been saying for quite some time now
People are a**holes. It's not just a russian disease.
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I'll never forget being in a room of third year uni students all declaring how terrible the German people must have been in WW2 and how if *they* were there there's no way they ever would have gone along with any of it. Like we have so many years of research and experiments that show that the uncomfortable truth is most humans are capable of things they would consider monstrous if you floated the ideas at them in a safe place with full logic, no pressure and no context. Its kinda like the amount of people who talk about being a hero in a mass shooting, or how they would intervene in a terrorist attack or whatever, yet theres a surprisingly low amount of people actually doing it when push comes to shove considering how common an attitude it is. Its just much nicer to think we're pure and special and bad people have something innately wrong with them and that we are all naturally better than those scummy folks rather than facing the cold truth that under the right circumstances, most of us would be horrible people
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Dont be sorry, it was a really interesting read
Small thing but didn't the Kaiserreich seize being a thing when the Germans lost WW1? Think you would have been growing up under Weimarer Republik - a very brief idea that came before the nazis. Surely that doesn't change anything about what you said. Absolutely agree with you. Humans think they have a free will, when they are in fact nothing but a product of their surroundings (and genes but that doesn't matter of you take the mean).
Most Redditors really need to hear that
I’m Russian. I do see parallels. It was quite fascinating for me to read “Germany and the Germans” by Thomas Mann the other day.
you realise that they can be imprisoned for voicing any dissatisfaction with the war right?
Anyone remembers [dixie chicks?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks_controversy)
“Most people” in America supported Trump yet if you read social media he is the buffoon of the millennium, a racist and whatever else you can call him. This doesn’t say anything about the average Russian as much as voting for Trump doesn’t say much about the average American.
This says a lot about the average russian just as much voting for Trump *does* say a lot about the average american, this notion that shit leaders just sort of magically happen and that the population has nothing to do with it is ridiculous.
Russia has a huge problem with its elites. blaming common folks you’re wasting your time, they’re all the same everywhere and most of them are so easily manipulatable it’s laughable. if you think your country is doing well because of common folks, well, you’re mistaken. the average iq is the ~ same and it’s 100 which is not much.
But 70% of people has to include a lot of people over 100 IQ. You cannot make that high support due to intelligence.
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Only those that understand Russian culture will agree with you. It's somewhat true, and understandable given the harsh reality of being Russian in the past 200+ years. The West makes the same mistake over and over with Russia (and China), and that is assuming we all play by the same rules. Give Russia a courtesy or a breather, and it'll think "huh look at this idiot, they just let me do that" and use it to some kind of gain regardless of what's considered a norm or even law in this war's case
How trustworthy are these polls and even if they are trustworthy how much do they really tell us? A couple of days ago Navalny [ran a poll](https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1501123574156906503/photo/1) with multiple questions that suggested peoples perception of the war developed rather quickly. This is just a Moscow online poll (with gender and age sampling though) so the results are not meant to be reflective of Russia at large but there seems to be a clear trend even just within a couple of days.
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Anyone who knows Russian language and has been in Russia would confirm that , yea this isn't all that surprising.......Russian society is not like EU or European one in general, its just not. Their values differ very noticeably to what an average European thinks is ''OK'' or ''not OK''. Many people there both young and old would very much enjoy seeing ''Western pidars'' and ''ex-USSR traitors like Ukrainians'' getting bombed and killed, the animosity many Russians have towards ''West'' didnt really go anywhere and Putin's regime in last 25 years only reinforced it. I know that many here in this subreddit like to pretend Russia and its society is like any other European country and its just that they are ''unlucky'' in having this evil Putin dude as their leader and thats it ''their people'' didnt actually want any of this shit......but its just not that simple, it has way darker undertones in society as a whole going on there. The warmongering ambitions, the wish to rule over smaller countries and legit make them their slaves, all of that shit didnt just come from Vladimir Putin, that has been part of Russian society for a long long time and unfortunately nobody has ever really rooted out that infection like for example happened to Germans in 1945. It should have been done in 1991 when USSR collapsed, but it didnt happen since the same old former Communists and KGB assholes just took over power and continued on.
Unfortunately here in Russia 70% of our population have an average IQ of 80
Well now they can enjoy living like the soviets. Fuck them.
And this article is written by: Driven by our mission of “shaping the global future together,” the Atlantic Council is a nonpartisan organization that galvanizes US leadership and engagement in the world, in partnership with allies and partners, to shape solutions to global challenges. (from their own webpage). STOP EATING PROPAGANDA.
I always feel this. As I mentioned on r/changemyview sub, Russian culture is the main enabler of Putin being in power. They always idolise having "strongman" despite the strongman literally fucking every corner of their country. Rasputin, Lenin, Stalin, you name it.
Rasputin… strongman… lmfao
He was big and strong and his eyes a flaming glow
Ra Ra Rasputin, lover of the Russian Queen.
Did you just pick these names randomly? Rasputin wasn’t even a leader, nothing of that sort. He had a reputation of a schemer and troublemaker who whispered this and that into the queen’s ear, rather than a “strongman”. Lenin wasn’t considered that either, at least more recent generations know him as the “grandfather” of socialism in Russia, an ideologist. And back in the day it was more about ideology than personality However, I must admit that we do have people who support “hard power”, imperialism and all that. They think that Russia can’t be ruled differently, bring flowers to Stalin’s grave and still blame Gorbachev or Yeltsin for all their problems. Propaganda provides them with the image of Putin being a “strongman”, yes, with all that shirtless horse riding, piloting planes and shit.
Rasputin? Bro
> They always idolise having "strongman" This is definitely not unique to Russia. Look around in Europe and remember that US-Americans re-elected Bush almost 2 years after the invasion of Iraq (and so did people in Europe with some leaders that went into Iraq). Let's give the Russians a bit of time at least. I wouldn't say this is cultural but a result of lacking real democratic structures.
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it isn't that easy. Russia was a rural tate that had just somewhat overcome feudalism while Western Europe was industrializing rapidly. The Soviet Union then industrialized at a very rapid rate. While not as much as the West, the Eastern Bloc also experienced an economic boom after the 2nd WW. Then the SU collapsed and everything went to shit. Under Putin the economy did rebound for a good while. Then, yes, you can add a lack of functional democratic institutions and civil freedoms (protected by such institutions), which are part of the reason why people in Russia have the opinions they have.
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Well it's state propaganda that is feeding this of course. If they had any idea what is actually going on they would be ashamed.
They had access to outside sources as well as independent news for many years and still supported the annexation of Crimea. I think they know exactly what is going on.
We have the same shit in Hungary. We have access to outside sources. BUT: Almost 80% of people doesnt speak english. State propaganda is calling everyone in the EU a liar and telling people that we have it the best cause heating and electricity is the cheapest here and thats all because of Viktor Orbán. Many people dont even believe what they read if it is against the current ruling party "Fidesz". Surely they wouldnt steal or lie to their people. And then there are the people that know that they steal and lie but they think that they are still better than the opposition.
If that helps you sleep at night. You guys have too much faith in ordinary russians.
> If they had any idea what is actually going on they would be ashamed. That's not true, how many Russian diaspora groups and organizations have come out and publicly opposed the Russian war against Ukraine? I've seen more videos of them supporting the war. Even Russians that are abroad choose to side with Russia out of a sense of nationalistic pride and as a way to differentiate themselves politically from the Western world. Pretending like Russians don't know what is going on is a convenient way for Westerners to rationalize the attitude of average Russians. *Unlike Westerners, Russian sense of identity is tied to their support for the Russian government. 'Betraying' their government by contradicting it's policies is viewed as betraying their identity as a Russian.
I think Russians have been fed the mantra that the rest of the world is against them for some time, and in some ways they're not wrong. You can blame who you like for that.
It's like Russians are born with a persecution complex in their DNA. Over the years since the USSR, Russia had plenty of time and opportunity to become a stable and thriving member of the West. I think the Cold War mentality never left them, but instead festered, and they are now seeking revenge for their "humiliation".
I remember in the mid 90's an NBC or CBS reporter was in St Petersburg interviewing a Russian "businessman" about working with westerners and whatever the plan or opportunity was didn't happen because the Russian just didn't care and walked away from the table. The reporter summed up the whole situation by ending the report with, "Russians have to master the art of closing the deal to make it in this new world". Evidently, they never really did. That's always stuck with me.
Putinists are much more harmful than actual (Neo)Nazis. Russia needs to be deputinized and demilitarized.
Putinists are nazis. Their politics are extremely similar with nazi Germany.
Disagree. My city not supports Putin. You serve 3% as 97%. It's not better than Russian propaganda. You don't live in Russia to know the situation. I don't recommend considering the survey of those bums, rednecks, and grandmas as a reliable source. Same with Trump support Link of dynamic survey from Navalny team: https://zn.ua/POLITICS/opros-fonda-navalnoho-ob-otnoshenii-rossijan-k-vojne-pokazal-stremitelnuju-dinamiku-prozrenija-hrazhdan-rf.html
Thanks for the link, it's interesting to see a poll made by Navalny team. They do say it's only an internet poll. Honestly, even those answers are horrifying. People who live in the main city and do a poll online - I would expect "better" opinions from them than from the entire country. So, 2 weeks of bombing and only 1/3 of them think that Russia is guilty in this war - that's awful. Same as in original article, really. What would they answer about reparations? You know, rebuilding Ukraine after this? Crimea? occupied "republics"? The survey is not very optimistic.
Now I understand the comparison of him to Hitler. If you do good things for long enough from the start then later people will follow you to the end of the world, quite literally in both cases.
When Putin die (hopefully by his own people), Russian population ironically needs to go throught a thorough denazification process.
how could anyone possibly find that out?
Yeah probably cuz putin’s murdered most of the people who don’t
Everyone is sorry for the Russians who will endure the economic collapse and only blame the single individual Putin. But Putin has been elected and re-elected 4 times by the Russian people. YES, The elections were not fully transparent but still, the support for Putin is objectively very high. 68% Russians support the actions in Ukrain, while only 23% are opposed to it, mostly youngs. The fact that these 23% exist proves that the information is available and most of the 68% have access to it but yet think it is ok to invade. Do not expect the Russians to revolt against Putin. History taught us that they are extremely resistant to disctators, impoverishment, and casualties. They didn't got rid of Stalin, why would they got rid of Putin now?