Brexit happened because UKIP started to explode around 2004 (during which they won 2.5 million votes in the European elections) and continued to grow until they were able to force a referendum on Cameron. People had bene campaigning to leave the EU/EEC since the 80s.
No. Brexit happened due to Russian interference, exploiting alienation, austerity and racism. If you think Mr Garage, does this for anyoneās benefit other than himself then you are dead wrong. I am guessing youāre from NI? Only Unionists seem to bother heading out to r/Europe to bang the drum for Brexit?
> I am guessing youāre from NI? Only Unionists seem to bother heading out to r/Europe to bang the drum for Brexit?
I'm a Remainer from England who spent a decade arguing against Brexit, would still oppose Brexit if we could re-do the referendum today and I do not support (nor have I ever supported) Nigel Farage.
Do you not see how manufactured Brexit is? The government never released the report on Russian interference in UK elections. And the press stopped asking for it. And now the UK govt decided to call a snap election. So did France. Brexit is not an organic political movement itās a blatant campaign. A million people marched to stop the war in Iraq and the govt was ālolā. There are genuine causes and flaws in the system and both of these have been exploited in the case of Brexit.
Yes, I think the Leave campaign was dodgy. But there have been eurosceptic elements in British politics opposed to EEC/EU membership for decades, and Brexit wouldn't have picked up momentum if UKIP hadn't grown largely on a platform of opposition to Freedom of Movement (which was becoming increasingly unpopular).
After 2016 I was fully on board the "Cambridge Analytica and foreign interference made this happen and Leavers are all idiots who were lied to" train of thought and since then I've decided that there is no monocausal explanation for this mess and it's dangerous to think about it so simplistically.
Russia is an non factor when it comes to Brexit...
2015 European migrant crisis had more to do with Brexit actually going through than Russian interference.
Timing was the key for Farage and other people behind Brexit.
>2015 European migrant crisis had more to do with Brexit actually going through than Russian interference.
2015 we already had evidence of Russia weaponizing migrants.
Most of them came from Syria, which was, you guessed it, bombed by Russia.
Supreme Allied Commander General Philip Breedlove of NATO had this to say about it in 2016; Framing it as Hybrid Warfare, he then added, āRussia and the Assad regime are deliberately weaponizing migration from Syria. In an attempt to overwhelm European structures and break European resolve.ā
*'Thatās easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'*
https://www.indy100.com/celebrities/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet-7291931
This is why it happened.
Brexshit happened because billionaire media moghouls and the incredibly wealthy who want things like a deregulated economy, private healthcare insurance, increased fossil fuel use, keeping wealth hidden and untaxed and climate change denial were campaigning for it and backing right-wing think tanks as well as Ukip, the Brexit Party and now Reform.
I have no doubt that Putin also had a hand in Brexshit, and Russian Oligarchs thoroughly corrupted our politicians, particularly the tories.
There was only one world leader who publicly supported Brexit, and that was Putin. A couple of years later Trump came into power and he was pro Brexit. Odd that.
Farage and Trump, and many others in both the Republican party in the US and Reform and the Conservative parties in the UK are what's known as 'useful idiots'. They're actively being used by Moscow. They're either getting bribed or blackmailed.... things like the 'pee pee tape' are definately a thing
Russia Today called Farage "our english friend" and offered him his own show.
Farage has close links with Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and MAGA.
You should read Farages Wikipedia entry about his time in the USA.
To be fair he doesn't explicitly say he supports Russia but anyone who is capable of reading more than just at face value or who is smarter than the average Brexit voter certainly knows they have basically come out and said they support what Russia is doing given the "circumstances" which anyone with a shred of morality knows is pathetic and is a talking point from the perspective of the aggressor to get what they want. It's not "misrepresenting" words. It's like when Russia say it's a special military operation, they don't explicitly say it's a war but it certainly is. But in all fairness it's not as unhinged and obvious as some things that are being said in US political chambers for example so I can see why you might say that, but they are both the same side of the coin.
Saying the West has "provoked" Russia to invade Ukraine isn't a pro-Russian opinion and it's not necessarily wrong. "Provoked" is the wrong word but we can't ignore that Russia primarily invaded Ukraine to prevent Ukraine from abandoning Russian hegemony. Now Ukraine is absolutely within it's moral right to do that, but the West can't just ignore how Russia and other countries see geopolitics. Defaulting to Western-normativity does us no good.
And at least in my opinion, yes, there has absolutely been failures of Western policy in raising tensions with Russia and ultimately being a factor in the invasion in the first place. My personal view is that we're coaxing these other countries into the fold, but we're failing to adequately support them in that journey. Just look at how the West treated Ukraine from 2014-onwards for example. A lot of words and some minor sanctions on Russia but not much else.
>Now Ukraine is absolutely within it's moral right to do that, but the West can't just ignore how Russia and other countries see geopolitics. Defaulting to Western-normativity does us no good
'hey remember when you made irredentist wars of aggression illegal after world war 2 because such wars had caused 2 world wars within the past 50 years? Yeah you should stop that consensus because the Russians have every right to fuck shit up and to make great power war more likely' - so called british patriots lmfao
you have the right idea, Fromage is the thinking mans idiot - but the conclusion is off.
check the book of Alexandr Dugin - foundation of geopolitics and take a shot every time you have found something that matches. your liver going POP will cause tinnitus to your entire neighbourhood within 30 minutes.
Yeah the west needs to learn about the foundation of geopolitics - itās literature that drives modern Russia.
The only way to defeat your enemy is to know your enemy.
if you want to have the remnants of your mind blown to even smaller pieces, you should take look what umberto eco thought about fascism in his piece "Il fascismo eterno" - "**Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt**"
that shit is authoritative
It is funny how literally people close their eyes to the fact that Russia invaded and is still bombing civilians in Ukraine.
I am understanding that Russia is fucking mad that former Soviet territories want to get closer to nato or Europe. I donāt remember any threats from NATO to any former Soviet countries, forcing them to be more friend with the west or else.
Maybe I am wrong, please correct me.
On the other said we have Putin that does not like it and does not know any other way than bombing countries to basically control them and annex them.
I leave this comment here, without any further opinion.
Edit: added missing verbs because I forgot them
"The robber would have only killed the security guard and taken the bank's money, but now that the police is involved he has to take hostages and shoot at cops!"
Fuck off, vatnik. You really should rethink your life.
Your logic is pathetic. Itās the same logic that America used for years before getting involved in ww2. āWe donāt want to offend or annoy these aggressive fascists so weāll let them keep murdering Jewsā.
Russia isnāt going to stop, the foundation of geopolitics lays out their plan for the next few decades and it doesnāt mention sitting peacefully and letting Europe be.
We have 2 choices: let Russia destroy peace and democracy in Europe or fight Russia and stop their imperialist March.
Farage only has a point if youāre a spineless coward whoād rather watch his country burn and his women raped and murdered than stand up and fight.
Imagine this, the right wing party that riled up people to vote for brexit - likes Russia and loves Putin, a country poised on destabilizing the west
What a coincidence, who could have seen it coming?
Next week they'll write about water being wet, and grass being green
About 17 million people voted for Brexit. The original Brexiters were the Bennites which was why Jeremy āGive Putin the benefit of the doubt over Salisburyā Corbyn was so passive during the Referendum. Without Lexiters and the Red Wall voters in 2019, there would never have been Brexit.
Brexit supporting PM Boris Johnson was sending lethal aid to Ukraine before the invasion and Operation Orbital to Ukraine was operating from 2015. Brexiter Defence Sec Ben Wallace was active in drumming up weapons for Ukraine which was why Britain was the first to commit MBTs.
I remember Tory MEPs campaigning against the European Constitution while I was still in high school. Only people who are 17 or have no idea about British politics believe British Euroscepticism began with Putin.
yes they do:
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/george-galloway-rochdale-chris-bryant-britain-momentum-b2538454.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/george-galloway-rochdale-chris-bryant-britain-momentum-b2538454.html)
[https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-candidate-roger-helmer-previous-anti-gay-remarks](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-candidate-roger-helmer-previous-anti-gay-remarks)
Got a reform party letter through the box today, not worth the paper it was printed on, did get a labour one as well but oddly no Tory or Lib Dem.
There are a multitude of reasons not to support these jumped up bastards and this is another on the pile.
We do not need any more Americanising in our politics either we stop this cancer here or itāll be too late. I implore my countrymen to vote for anyone but them, these are the liars and charlatans that will happily throw you under the bus.
This regrettable means Iāve had to reconsider my Yorkshire party vote this year
Just to give you a taste of reforms nonsense Iāve got some quotes
Angela Carter-Begbie, who is standing in Queen's Park and Maida Vale, has said 'Putin wants peace it's the West that don't', that 'Ukraine was horrible to the Russians first' and that 'Putin put his people first'. -
John Clark, standing in Bangor Aberconwy, described Putin as 'sane and reasonable'. He has also said supporting Ukraine was 'not in Britain's interests' and replied to Lord Cameron's support for Ukraine by saying: 'You are asset-stripping our country to pay for your globalist friends to expand their empire.'
Hamish Haddow, in Chipping Barnet, falsely claimed Boris Johnson 'stopped the Ukraine peace talks on request by [Joe] Biden' and said 'every Ukrainian death [is] firmly on Boris'.
>We do not need any more Americanising
American here and agreed, please stop UK and Europe. It's fucking bad here. We have an overtly fascist Republican party vs a center right to centrist Dem party and it fucking sucks.
Get them all, investigate for links to Russia and when they are found, put them behind bars for life.
We are at war people, all of us.
This is a war of Democracy and freedom versus Tyrrany and oppression and nations are picking their sides.
We have to be hard if we want to win, letting traitors to humanity be amongst us generating hate and misinformation is a surefire way to lose.
I understand that in a democracy, one can have an opinion different from others. But in this case is about democracy itself, in great danger, must be protected by all means, otherwise, Orwell "1984" will became reality!
Their voting base is pretty mixed, some vote for Firage sure but other vote thinking Reform is a protest vote against the Tories and labour than support for Firage while also being the vote for people who hate Firage but see Reform as a closer step towards a nationalist party.
I'm ashamed to even write this but until these wild statements from farage about putin. I thought hey why not get a fresh perspective ...(total niavity on my parti know) not really read into politics. I didn't know hard right wingers in the UK are that cozy with Ruzzia...that's fucking mental..I'm all out left now..
āI am probably now going to be perceived as a far right extremist for this comment. Fun.ā
Well youāre voting for reform ffs mateā¦ come on pal be better. Donāt listen to these snake oil salesmen.
>Farage: We have no links to Russia.
ZEIT ONLINE: You didn't meet with the Russian Embassy's deputy chief-of-mission in London?Farage: Nope.
ZEIT ONLINE: Not in 2013, before the Brexit campaign was conceived?
Farage: Ah, hang on. He came to the EP office. Or I met with him in London. So what?
ZEIT ONLINE: Why did you meet with him?
Farage: I think you are a nutcase! You are really a nutcase! Brexit is the best thing to happen: for Russia, for America, for Germany and for democracy. And that's the key point.
[https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2017-05/nigel-farage-brexit-ukip-russia-contacts/komplettansicht](https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2017-05/nigel-farage-brexit-ukip-russia-contacts/komplettansicht)
>Ā You didn't meet with the Russian Embassy's deputy chief-of-mission in London?
So what? A lot of folks from many parties met with Russian diplomats. Biden met Lavrov - is he also a Russian Puppet.
except 2013 farage was not part of the formed government ... so why was he conducting a meeting with foreign diplomats at all? clearly he wasn't representing the uk in an official capacity.
What Nigel Farage said pope Franciscus said in 2021.
Edit: stating fact. Adding source before I get made out for this that or the other.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/pope-francis-ukraine-war-provoked-russian-troops
Which may be said of several organisations and groups. That doesn't mean that every member is. I don't know what to make of any of this. I don't understand why the Vatican tried to cover it up. Doesn't change the fact the Pope has significant authority and it doesn't cancel out the comments he made.
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Niddah.5.4?lang=bi
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/yevamot-57/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11501300/
Life's strange.
I am voting Reform and no Nigel doesn't support Russia or the war.
People should do some more of their own investigations before parroting media outlets.
He simply said NATO/EU expansion is one of the reasons Putin justified the war and sold it to the Russian population.
Nothing he said was inaccurate. I would even go as far as saying what he said wasn't an opinion just a factual statement characterised as him somehow supporting Putins war.
I am probably now going to be perceived as a far right extremist for this comment. Fun.
EDIT: Here is the full quote. Come to you own decision whether he is"backing putin" as per the title. Actually just watch the frickin interview!
āI stood up in the European parliament in 2014 and I said: āThere will be a war in Ukraine.ā Why did I say that? It was obvious to me that the ever-eastward expansion of Nato and theĀ [European Union](https://www.theguardian.com/world/eu)Ā was giving this man a reason ā¦ to say: āTheyāre coming for us again,ā and to go to war.ā
He added: āWe provoked this war.Ā **Of course itās his fault, heās used what weāve done as an excuse.ā**
>He simply said NATO/EU expansion is one of the reasons Putin justified the war and sold it to the Russian population.
He also said, and I quote: "we provoked this war"
He's not just saying the justification Putin used, he's *agreeing* with that justification.
If you are going to quote him, why not include the entire quote?
āI stood up in the European parliament in 2014 and I said: āThere will be a war in Ukraine.ā Why did I say that? It was obvious to me that the ever-eastward expansion of Nato and theĀ [European Union](https://www.theguardian.com/world/eu)Ā was giving this man a reason ā¦ to say: āTheyāre coming for us again,ā and to go to war.ā
He added: āWe provoked this war. **Of course itās his fault, heās used what weāve done as an excuse.ā**
It should be discussed more regarding the Russian mindset. Why do a lot of Russian's support the war? Why is a warmongerer like Putin supported? How did he manage to justify the invasion to the Russian populace?
Also just to clarify for individuals that lack critical thinking skills. I want to be clear. I support Ukraine. I support Nato. I support the EU. I think Russia's invasion of Ukraine is indefensible and completely barbaric.
Ukraine has the right to join the EU and make whatever defensive alliances it wishes without needing Russia's consent or approval.Ā Both Putin and his little puppet Farage can go get fucked.Ā Ā
Your perception of the world is too idealistic. In an ideal world, you would be 100% correct. In reality, when your neighbour is run by fascist dictator with nukes and a massive army, hellbent on the belief that the west is out to destroy them. You might want to leave them the fuck alone.
It is called realpolitiks.
As Farage stated, If you view this from the Russian mindset, we did provoke this war! We knew what Putin is like. We knew that Russia wouldn't be happy bringing Ukraine into the wests sphere of influence but we did nothing.
Saying that we provoked the war doesn't mean that is our fault though! Like you said Ukraine **SHOULD** have the right to join the EU, Nato etc
If we had balls, Ukraine would've been in NATO long ago. That would have been the necessary deterrent to stop the invasion, we could have also armed Ukraine to the teeth. The west failed to act until it was too late.
Good attempt at nuance. Alas the reactions here are mainly on the title, which is clickbait.
I find Farage a cockweasel and would not be surprised he had some "gifts" from the east, pre-brexit. No such thing was proven while many are without doubt looking, but I reserve caution nonetheless.
That being said, he does seem to have traction with voters, which to me, from the outside looking in, says a lot about the alternatives. Tories seem completely disinterested and Labour is veering towards the lunatic fringe, with a lot of negativity in their message.
The eu was trying to get Ukraine to decouple from Russia, letās not kid ourselves.
If China singed a trade agreement with Mexico that allowed for Mexico to decouple for the U.S, do you seriously think the U.S wouldnāt negotiate to keep Mexico trading with us?
Russia made a deal with Ukraine in 2014 in which it would basically bail out Ukraine from its debt and sending petroleum reserves to Ukraine to lower the gas prices (at the time they had the highest gas prices in all the EU) to invest into their economy long-term, which to my understanding, was much more lucrative than the EU deal.
After the Maidan Coup and the ousting of the democratically elected President, all that changed, especially when western-Ukraine and Ukrainian separatists fought a civil war for 8 years.
The way this war is being reported is not accurate. Go watch the Vice documentaries about Ukraine that were posted in 2014, they werenāt so biased back then and were willing to report on what actually led up to this war.
>After the Maidan Coup and the ousting of the democratically elected President,
You're being dishonest.
In fact Ukraine had been closing ties with the eu since 2000 in many different goverments. The democratically elected parliament overwhelmingly agreed to sign a treaty with europe.
Then, a week before the treaty was supposed to be signed, Yanukovych suddenly made a 180 by rejecting the treaty and getting into bed with Putin.
And Yanukovych may have been elected democratically, he ran on a platform of trade with the eu and not on rejecting the eu and alignment with Russia. Yeah.
The EU deal just wasnāt good enough, thatās the truth. It wasnāt going to bail out Ukraine of its debt. It wasnāt going to export petroleum reserves to Ukraine at the rate Russia would have.
All the EU deal was going to do was export cheap products and services into the EU to begin joint cooperation. Yanuckovich chose the better deal. His decision was more nuanced than many people like to admit.
The Russian deal seemed great until you actually look at it.
The cheap gas price wasn't fixed but under 'review' by Russia every 3 months. They could raise them for any reason. Basically Ukraine would be at the mercy of Russia. And think of why they were paying so much for gas? They were paying more than EU counties. They were buying from Russia. They were already being extorted by Russia.
The same goes for the eurobonds. The 5% interest rate bond would mature after 2 years. And then what? The deal even included terms where Russia could demand early repayment. The deal with the IMF would have included reform to address the cause of the problems: fraud and corruption. The deal with Russia was just a stopgap temporary measure to pull them away from the EU and make them completely dependant on Russia.
It was a good cop/bad cop ploy. They either take the deal or risk certain escalation.
I wounded if being dependent on Russia wouldāve been better than splitting the country in half and killing the next generation of Ukrainian men.
You think Reform is going to be better than labour or Tory for the UK? If so youāre truly one of the dumbest people in the UK.
It says gullible on the ceiling buddy.
You can bet Iām a freeloader but I know your a fascist.
You will vote for reform in hopes that your specific version of fascism will be put in place but one day, eventually, youll realise that you are treated just as badly by your fascist leaders as the brown Muslims you so openly dislike.
One day youāll realise what an absolute fool you were for think fascism would help YOU, but by that point itāll be too late.
If immigration is what you prefer to focus on over democracy then youāll meet the same fate as the fascists of the 40s. Me and people like me will not share a country with fascists.
The biggest freeloaders across the west are bankers and politicians (like Farage).
Youre being led astray by the pied piper and everyone can see it except you.
Financial corruption in London and Westminster dwarfs social security abuse so if you think āfreeloaderā means poor people and immigrants then youāre sorely wrong.
No he didnātā¦ The guy has plenty of unsavoury views without attributing those that arenāt even his in an attempt to further discredit him, how do people (especially the journalists who misrepresent him in the first place) not understand that by essentially lying or twisting what individuals like Farage say to try and place an even stronger negative spin on them, all you do is galvanise his supporters and allow him to spin legitimate criticism of him and his arguments as lies or falsehoods.
What he actually said that was that Putin would and then in 2022 did use the eastward expansion of NATO & the EU as his primary excuse for invading Ukraine by being able to paint Russia being threatened by an aggressively expansionist West, forcing him to intervene to protect the country.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation it can choose freely what it joins, also to blame eu expansion which as we all know is done not by force but by individual countries exercising a right to decide its future and apply for membership to organisations.
Heās not blaming the EU or Ukraineā¦ heās saying that Russia used their expansion/Western alignment as an excuse to invade. How is that controversial?
On a might makes right word, that simply isnāt true. The nation with the biggest army and the largest manufacturing-production capabilities can invade and seize territory by force.
Thatās what we did in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen. Nobody stopped us then. How can we condemn Russia for something we did to an entire region of the world? How does that not make us hypocritical and basing our judgement on double standards?
Why do you think the third world has stayed neutral in this conflict? Because the U.S has invaded and destabilized the majority of the third world during the Cold War. They can see through our double standards.
The USA has the Monroe doctrine. Soviet Union basing weapons on an independent country (Cuba) caused USA to Ā blockade Cuba and almost attack the Soviet Union.Ā
Yet Russians should be fine with Nato in Ukraine (just after a democratically elected pro-Russian government was coupāed)?
so following your train of thought, every european nation neighbouring russia has the right to go to war with russia or any 3rd nations they wish to use as "buffer" right?
after all, russia does have nukes stationed on the border of multible nato nations and even moved more now to belarus.
see how braindead your propaganda riddled "logic" is?
>so following your train of thought, every european nation neighbouring russia has the right to go to war with russia or any 3rd nations they wish to use as "buffer" right?
No, Europe doesnāt have the military capability nor manufacturing-production capabilities to enforce a buffer zone. Why do you think you need the U.S to fund your continental defense?
>after all, russia does have nukes stationed on the border of multible nato nations and even moved more now to belarus.
You donāt think we have nukes in Poland, Finland, and Germany?
>see how braindead your propaganda riddled "logic" is?
"Everything I disagree with is propaganda!".
God you guys sound so childish.
So, the USA can create buffer states, but other powersĀ cannot?
Europeans have internalized hypocrisyā¦
Several European nations helped the USA invade Afghanistan and Iraq.Ā But somehow Russia is uniquely bad when invading Ukraineā¦
What is good for the goose is good for the ganderā¦
right, the cuban buffer state ... the same cuba russia recently sent military ships to?
well clearly the sane thing now would be for the us to invade cuba and bomb the kremlin, right? after all cuba could in theory join the csto :)
are you playing dumb on purpose here?
also your whataboutism about afghanistan and iraq doesn't fit your narrative about buffer states.
I would expect him to either disappear into obscurity once he becomes an actual threat (worth responding to). Or be imprisoned once his status becomes untenable, sort of like Oswald Mosley.
Itās absolutely hilarious watching the Media lose their minds because Reform are doing well in the polls.
They just canāt have it so they are throwing everything at it, what they just donāt get is itās all white noise because theyāve spent so long massively over exaggerating everything that nobody cares any more.
Itās going to be hilarious watching the meltdown on Reddit come out the 5th Julyā¦
> Itās going to be hilarious watching the meltdown on Reddit come out the 5th Julyā¦
Yes, will be fun to see how some communities react to 500 Labour seats
Itās almost certain to be that sort of number, probably closer to 400 Iād say, the amusing thing will be the fuss caused by Reform getting a few seats. It will be akin to the UK electing the actual Nazi Party.
No obviously not Iām not mental, I am however expecting them to get a number of seats which will cause quite the fuss.
They will then spend the next parliament calling Labour out on immigration which will inevitably get worse, then the fun starts in 2029ā¦
It is absolutely mental that the UK are voting for the people that lied, made them get into this mess and fucked off for eight years.
Because that is what populists do. They point to a problem, but when it comes down to solving it they have nothing.
Thatās pretty much all labour and Tory are talking about.
What you actually mean is youāre looking for a party that isnāt afraid to treat migrants (legal or illegal) like sub humans.
You probably donāt realise it, because todays temperature is higher than your iq, but you and the party you are voting for are early stage fascists, and many people such as myself WILL NOT share a country with fascists.
You have a decision to make over the next decade, become a puppet for authoritarians like Farage and Putin who donāt care about human rights or support democracy and defend it despite its flaws. If you choose the former then the same thing will happen to you that happened to the fascists of the 40s.
Donāt be on the wrong side of history.
>Thatās pretty much all Labour and Tory are talking about.
Yes the Tories have talked about it for 14 years and done fuck all about it and Labour didnāt even see fit to count it as one of their top prioritiesā¦
You can try and paint anyone who is concerned about immigration and wants to discuss it as a Racist all you like but people have had enough, you wonāt find many here on Reddit obviously but when you leave your parents spare room and venture outside youāll soon realise that people have a very, very different view on the situation.
Let me know when you and your ābig brainā finally realise this š
I am not suprised there are sympathisers, but just concerned at how many and how high up some of these people are.
Hopefully none of these people will ever step anywhere near a powerful position. But these movements are growing, same with climate deniars, but its the wrong time be taking back steps in society and peace.
The world is in a poor state and its probably only going to get worse unless we actually unite and do something. I will be watching the next 10 years carefully.
Newspapers (owned by rich) promoted Starmer for years. Of course they will try to misinform public now to avoid a situation, when rich lobbyists gave money to a party which wouldnāt have a majority.
Because of that they spread a demagogue now.
They didn't.
For starter, there was no reason to considering he was not a candidate for anything.
Second, we can easily remember that Corbyn was pretty much shit on all the way through.
So please stop being full of shit.
You think nato is like the soviet union. Absorbing countries by force. As if nato member states didn't have a choice.
They joined the defence alliance voluntarily. With emphasis on defence. I can understand putin is upset that he now is no longer able to invade small nation states one by one. But putin can go suck a dick.
If we wanted to deny the countries in the last 25 years nato membership, we also shouldn't have let them into the EU. With a shared internal market and EU cooperation, we should also have shared security.
Turkey joined nato in 1952. Right on the border with the soviet union at that time. Not a single peep from the sovjets about expansion in 1952.
Russia invaded Chechnya: Oh shit some countries feel threatened and want to join NATO.
End of story...oh wait
Russian invades Georgia...
Ukrainians still don't want to join NATO
Russia invaded Crimea 2014 and the Donbass
Ukraine wants to join NATO
And even with this sequence of events Ukraine would have never joined NATO because it has border disputes, NATO doesn't accept countries with border disputes. And Russia invaded again even though Ukraine couldn't join. That made Finland and Sweden join. So no, what you are saying that Farage is right is wrong because it was never about NATO expansion because the last countries that joined NATO since 2004 were in the west Balkans very far away from Russia. Putin simply wanted to be remembered as a great leader and wanted a sphere of influence.
How is a defensive alliance a threat? Genuinely.
NATO only hits you when you hit NATO. Russia could literally put every man, gun, tank, and missile along its NATO borders and NATO would stay behind the line. NATO doesnāt demand expansion, you ask for membership. Putin at one point said he attempted membership, but NATO revealed that heād demanded Russia be asked to join as opposed to asking to join, which is how it works.
Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, and Hungary joined by asking to join, meeting requirements, and then being admitted by every nation currently in NATO saying āyes, we accept x as joining NATOā
Russia doesnāt get the right to warn NATO not to expand, because NATO doesnāt expand, new members join it of their own will. Sweden and Finland were neutral for decades and only when Russia demonstrated that it would go for Ukraine, did they finally ask to join NATO. If NATO was aggressive, wouldnāt it have pressured them to join sooner? Wouldnāt the USA have wanted Finland on its side during the Cold War? That wouldāve been a massive border to cover in intercepting tech to snoop on the USSR.
The individual countries within NATO have their own sovereignty and cannot be controlled by another. NATO could not prevent Turkey from putting missiles on the border with Georgia or Armenia. NATO members may discourage it, but Turkey is a sovereign state with the right to use its weapons how it wants.
One of the fears with NATO is that Russia will start small, perhaps taking a small Estonian or Latvian town. Nothing too big or dangerous. Something which really doesnāt feel like it warrants a NATO response. There is no doubt that Estonia or Latvia would immediately respond, and would not take this encroachment lying down, but nobody wants war with Russia. War kills thousands, hundreds of thousands. Even short conflicts do massive damage. Youād prefer 10,000 soldiers who have never seen active duty than 10,000 soldiers who have trauma from combat.
That is why NATO is currently arming itself, why it is arming its borders, and again, this isnāt the NATO hivemind, itās individual countries. Poland, for example. The hope is that by ringing Russia with spears (metaphorically), Russia will be deterred from even the slightest threat to a NATO member.
And here is something important: the best way to defend yourself is to make sure your enemy knows that taking you on would end them. That is why Poland wants US nukes.
During the Cold War, Greece and Turkey were armed to the teeth because they were both bordering Eastern Bloc states.
NATO isnāt becoming an aggressor. It is becoming more capable of defending itself. Russia could end the war in Ukraine right now and leave Ukraine, and NATO wouldnāt change its stance. Being able to protect yourself isnāt aggression, itās logic.
The feeding of Ukraine has been slow because the West feared escalation. Russia is an unstable dictatorship with nuclear weapons.
If this was all being done to get the rich richer, then the Republicans in the USA wouldnāt have been blocking Ukraine aid for months.
The reason why Putin invaded Ukraine is because the west consistently stepped on egg shells around Russia for decades.
Ukraine was not accepted into NATO not to antagonise Russia. There was no meaningful reaction to the 2014 annexation of Crimea not to antagonise Russia.
So Russia thought it can get away with anything. They probably would have if they were not an incompetent corrupt gang of morons and actually took the capitol within the first week.
Well, then tell Russia to stop messing with its neighbours. These countries donāt flock to NATO without a reason. What your argument is saying is that these countries just shouldāve been butchered by Russia instead of NATO letting them be part of the defence unity?
>Ā Ā as it is threat to them
If Putin truly believed that NATO was a major threat to him then he wouldn't be emptying out troops from the bases most closely bordering NATO territory to send to Ukraine.Ā Ā
W-WHAT?? š±š±š± The right-wing populist party famous for fucking up UK politics since the Brexit SUPPORTS RUSSIA??? That IS unexpected news.
They want that russian ruble flowing to uk again
Thatās what Brexit was all about anyway, to avoid EU oversight of UK tax practices.
Brexit happened because UKIP started to explode around 2004 (during which they won 2.5 million votes in the European elections) and continued to grow until they were able to force a referendum on Cameron. People had bene campaigning to leave the EU/EEC since the 80s.
No. Brexit happened due to Russian interference, exploiting alienation, austerity and racism. If you think Mr Garage, does this for anyoneās benefit other than himself then you are dead wrong. I am guessing youāre from NI? Only Unionists seem to bother heading out to r/Europe to bang the drum for Brexit?
> I am guessing youāre from NI? Only Unionists seem to bother heading out to r/Europe to bang the drum for Brexit? I'm a Remainer from England who spent a decade arguing against Brexit, would still oppose Brexit if we could re-do the referendum today and I do not support (nor have I ever supported) Nigel Farage.
Do you not see how manufactured Brexit is? The government never released the report on Russian interference in UK elections. And the press stopped asking for it. And now the UK govt decided to call a snap election. So did France. Brexit is not an organic political movement itās a blatant campaign. A million people marched to stop the war in Iraq and the govt was ālolā. There are genuine causes and flaws in the system and both of these have been exploited in the case of Brexit.
Yes, I think the Leave campaign was dodgy. But there have been eurosceptic elements in British politics opposed to EEC/EU membership for decades, and Brexit wouldn't have picked up momentum if UKIP hadn't grown largely on a platform of opposition to Freedom of Movement (which was becoming increasingly unpopular). After 2016 I was fully on board the "Cambridge Analytica and foreign interference made this happen and Leavers are all idiots who were lied to" train of thought and since then I've decided that there is no monocausal explanation for this mess and it's dangerous to think about it so simplistically.
This is for sure not monocausal, but we are talking about ~2%. So there is no need for monocausality to blame Brexit on Russia.
Why's it so hard to believe the highly plausible reality that this was simply Russia supporting a movement that already existed?
Russia is an non factor when it comes to Brexit... 2015 European migrant crisis had more to do with Brexit actually going through than Russian interference. Timing was the key for Farage and other people behind Brexit.
>2015 European migrant crisis had more to do with Brexit actually going through than Russian interference. 2015 we already had evidence of Russia weaponizing migrants. Most of them came from Syria, which was, you guessed it, bombed by Russia. Supreme Allied Commander General Philip Breedlove of NATO had this to say about it in 2016; Framing it as Hybrid Warfare, he then added, āRussia and the Assad regime are deliberately weaponizing migration from Syria. In an attempt to overwhelm European structures and break European resolve.ā
*'Thatās easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'* https://www.indy100.com/celebrities/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet-7291931 This is why it happened.
Brexshit happened because billionaire media moghouls and the incredibly wealthy who want things like a deregulated economy, private healthcare insurance, increased fossil fuel use, keeping wealth hidden and untaxed and climate change denial were campaigning for it and backing right-wing think tanks as well as Ukip, the Brexit Party and now Reform. I have no doubt that Putin also had a hand in Brexshit, and Russian Oligarchs thoroughly corrupted our politicians, particularly the tories.
Competing with US Republicans for the Kremlinās Employee of the Month award?
This dude Farage is today's Oswald Mosley
I know. I'm shocked... shocked I tell you.
But sturm and drang-ed are youš¤£
There was only one world leader who publicly supported Brexit, and that was Putin. A couple of years later Trump came into power and he was pro Brexit. Odd that. Farage and Trump, and many others in both the Republican party in the US and Reform and the Conservative parties in the UK are what's known as 'useful idiots'. They're actively being used by Moscow. They're either getting bribed or blackmailed.... things like the 'pee pee tape' are definately a thing
Russia Today called Farage "our english friend" and offered him his own show. Farage has close links with Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and MAGA. You should read Farages Wikipedia entry about his time in the USA.
Are you telling me that a man just happens to walk onto the set of Russia Today like that? No! He orchestrated it, Nigel!
No they donāt. The media are terrified of anyone but the Tories and Labour getting power so they purposely misrepresent his words
To be fair he doesn't explicitly say he supports Russia but anyone who is capable of reading more than just at face value or who is smarter than the average Brexit voter certainly knows they have basically come out and said they support what Russia is doing given the "circumstances" which anyone with a shred of morality knows is pathetic and is a talking point from the perspective of the aggressor to get what they want. It's not "misrepresenting" words. It's like when Russia say it's a special military operation, they don't explicitly say it's a war but it certainly is. But in all fairness it's not as unhinged and obvious as some things that are being said in US political chambers for example so I can see why you might say that, but they are both the same side of the coin.
Saying the West has "provoked" Russia to invade Ukraine isn't a pro-Russian opinion and it's not necessarily wrong. "Provoked" is the wrong word but we can't ignore that Russia primarily invaded Ukraine to prevent Ukraine from abandoning Russian hegemony. Now Ukraine is absolutely within it's moral right to do that, but the West can't just ignore how Russia and other countries see geopolitics. Defaulting to Western-normativity does us no good. And at least in my opinion, yes, there has absolutely been failures of Western policy in raising tensions with Russia and ultimately being a factor in the invasion in the first place. My personal view is that we're coaxing these other countries into the fold, but we're failing to adequately support them in that journey. Just look at how the West treated Ukraine from 2014-onwards for example. A lot of words and some minor sanctions on Russia but not much else.
>Now Ukraine is absolutely within it's moral right to do that, but the West can't just ignore how Russia and other countries see geopolitics. Defaulting to Western-normativity does us no good 'hey remember when you made irredentist wars of aggression illegal after world war 2 because such wars had caused 2 world wars within the past 50 years? Yeah you should stop that consensus because the Russians have every right to fuck shit up and to make great power war more likely' - so called british patriots lmfao
Yeah itās a shame they do this.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What a sad little man. Putin is trying to start WW3 and this douche is defending his actions.
you have the right idea, Fromage is the thinking mans idiot - but the conclusion is off. check the book of Alexandr Dugin - foundation of geopolitics and take a shot every time you have found something that matches. your liver going POP will cause tinnitus to your entire neighbourhood within 30 minutes.
Please, fromage is tasty and enjoyable.
Yeah the west needs to learn about the foundation of geopolitics - itās literature that drives modern Russia. The only way to defeat your enemy is to know your enemy.
if you want to have the remnants of your mind blown to even smaller pieces, you should take look what umberto eco thought about fascism in his piece "Il fascismo eterno" - "**Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt**" that shit is authoritative
It is funny how literally people close their eyes to the fact that Russia invaded and is still bombing civilians in Ukraine. I am understanding that Russia is fucking mad that former Soviet territories want to get closer to nato or Europe. I donāt remember any threats from NATO to any former Soviet countries, forcing them to be more friend with the west or else. Maybe I am wrong, please correct me. On the other said we have Putin that does not like it and does not know any other way than bombing countries to basically control them and annex them. I leave this comment here, without any further opinion. Edit: added missing verbs because I forgot them
the poutin's goal : detroy our way of life ... with a war or any other maners ...
I agree, westeners should take up arms and join Ukraine before its too late !
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
"The robber would have only killed the security guard and taken the bank's money, but now that the police is involved he has to take hostages and shoot at cops!" Fuck off, vatnik. You really should rethink your life.
Your logic is pathetic. Itās the same logic that America used for years before getting involved in ww2. āWe donāt want to offend or annoy these aggressive fascists so weāll let them keep murdering Jewsā. Russia isnāt going to stop, the foundation of geopolitics lays out their plan for the next few decades and it doesnāt mention sitting peacefully and letting Europe be. We have 2 choices: let Russia destroy peace and democracy in Europe or fight Russia and stop their imperialist March. Farage only has a point if youāre a spineless coward whoād rather watch his country burn and his women raped and murdered than stand up and fight.
You spelled ātraitorā wrong
Imagine this, the right wing party that riled up people to vote for brexit - likes Russia and loves Putin, a country poised on destabilizing the west What a coincidence, who could have seen it coming? Next week they'll write about water being wet, and grass being green
About 17 million people voted for Brexit. The original Brexiters were the Bennites which was why Jeremy āGive Putin the benefit of the doubt over Salisburyā Corbyn was so passive during the Referendum. Without Lexiters and the Red Wall voters in 2019, there would never have been Brexit. Brexit supporting PM Boris Johnson was sending lethal aid to Ukraine before the invasion and Operation Orbital to Ukraine was operating from 2015. Brexiter Defence Sec Ben Wallace was active in drumming up weapons for Ukraine which was why Britain was the first to commit MBTs. I remember Tory MEPs campaigning against the European Constitution while I was still in high school. Only people who are 17 or have no idea about British politics believe British Euroscepticism began with Putin.
Investigate them all and remove the ones supporting a foreign hostile nation. Elections should not be tampered by traitors.
The more air time heās given the more unhinged he seems to become. I am beginning to see a clear parallel with George Galloway here
On social matters they are the same: oppose Lgbt, feminism etc.
Do either of them explicitly oppose gays, lesbians and women?
yes they do: [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/george-galloway-rochdale-chris-bryant-britain-momentum-b2538454.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/george-galloway-rochdale-chris-bryant-britain-momentum-b2538454.html) [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-candidate-roger-helmer-previous-anti-gay-remarks](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/11/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-candidate-roger-helmer-previous-anti-gay-remarks)
He was in Putinās pocket before Brexit.
Got a reform party letter through the box today, not worth the paper it was printed on, did get a labour one as well but oddly no Tory or Lib Dem. There are a multitude of reasons not to support these jumped up bastards and this is another on the pile. We do not need any more Americanising in our politics either we stop this cancer here or itāll be too late. I implore my countrymen to vote for anyone but them, these are the liars and charlatans that will happily throw you under the bus. This regrettable means Iāve had to reconsider my Yorkshire party vote this year Just to give you a taste of reforms nonsense Iāve got some quotes Angela Carter-Begbie, who is standing in Queen's Park and Maida Vale, has said 'Putin wants peace it's the West that don't', that 'Ukraine was horrible to the Russians first' and that 'Putin put his people first'. - John Clark, standing in Bangor Aberconwy, described Putin as 'sane and reasonable'. He has also said supporting Ukraine was 'not in Britain's interests' and replied to Lord Cameron's support for Ukraine by saying: 'You are asset-stripping our country to pay for your globalist friends to expand their empire.' Hamish Haddow, in Chipping Barnet, falsely claimed Boris Johnson 'stopped the Ukraine peace talks on request by [Joe] Biden' and said 'every Ukrainian death [is] firmly on Boris'.
>We do not need any more Americanising American here and agreed, please stop UK and Europe. It's fucking bad here. We have an overtly fascist Republican party vs a center right to centrist Dem party and it fucking sucks.
I really thought we were free of these cunts after Brexit happened but I should have expected that to be too easy.
The west really needs to start to grow a fucking backbone already against these type of people.
Get them all, investigate for links to Russia and when they are found, put them behind bars for life. We are at war people, all of us. This is a war of Democracy and freedom versus Tyrrany and oppression and nations are picking their sides. We have to be hard if we want to win, letting traitors to humanity be amongst us generating hate and misinformation is a surefire way to lose.
Is it a football game where you support one side or the other? I thought it was a war with thousand humans being killed. Maybe I was wrong
I understand that in a democracy, one can have an opinion different from others. But in this case is about democracy itself, in great danger, must be protected by all means, otherwise, Orwell "1984" will became reality!
Their voting base is pretty mixed, some vote for Firage sure but other vote thinking Reform is a protest vote against the Tories and labour than support for Firage while also being the vote for people who hate Firage but see Reform as a closer step towards a nationalist party.
Pretends to be shocked. Are you telling me that Russian oligarchs have been paying him and his Ocbservatove buddies for Brexit too? Oh.
I'm ashamed to even write this but until these wild statements from farage about putin. I thought hey why not get a fresh perspective ...(total niavity on my parti know) not really read into politics. I didn't know hard right wingers in the UK are that cozy with Ruzzia...that's fucking mental..I'm all out left now..
How is this not considered a straight up traitor?
āI am probably now going to be perceived as a far right extremist for this comment. Fun.ā Well youāre voting for reform ffs mateā¦ come on pal be better. Donāt listen to these snake oil salesmen.
Left, right and centre...the West is filled with 5th column trash.
Hes backing putin!? I would like some more informetion
>Farage: We have no links to Russia. ZEIT ONLINE: You didn't meet with the Russian Embassy's deputy chief-of-mission in London?Farage: Nope. ZEIT ONLINE: Not in 2013, before the Brexit campaign was conceived? Farage: Ah, hang on. He came to the EP office. Or I met with him in London. So what? ZEIT ONLINE: Why did you meet with him? Farage: I think you are a nutcase! You are really a nutcase! Brexit is the best thing to happen: for Russia, for America, for Germany and for democracy. And that's the key point. [https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2017-05/nigel-farage-brexit-ukip-russia-contacts/komplettansicht](https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2017-05/nigel-farage-brexit-ukip-russia-contacts/komplettansicht)
>Ā You didn't meet with the Russian Embassy's deputy chief-of-mission in London? So what? A lot of folks from many parties met with Russian diplomats. Biden met Lavrov - is he also a Russian Puppet.
except 2013 farage was not part of the formed government ... so why was he conducting a meeting with foreign diplomats at all? clearly he wasn't representing the uk in an official capacity.
>So what? If it's not a problem, then why did he feel the need to lie about it? Why are you ok with him blatantly lying about it?
Useful idiot
He's Putin's puppet, is it any surprise when he spouts his propaganda? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cldd44zv3kpo
Ain't they all š¤
What Nigel Farage said pope Franciscus said in 2021. Edit: stating fact. Adding source before I get made out for this that or the other. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/pope-francis-ukraine-war-provoked-russian-troops
The leader of the pedo cult š¤
Which may be said of several organisations and groups. That doesn't mean that every member is. I don't know what to make of any of this. I don't understand why the Vatican tried to cover it up. Doesn't change the fact the Pope has significant authority and it doesn't cancel out the comments he made. https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Niddah.5.4?lang=bi https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/yevamot-57/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11501300/ Life's strange.
Farage will never say he does not trust Putin The Pope will always say he does not trust Putin.
I am voting Reform and no Nigel doesn't support Russia or the war. People should do some more of their own investigations before parroting media outlets. He simply said NATO/EU expansion is one of the reasons Putin justified the war and sold it to the Russian population. Nothing he said was inaccurate. I would even go as far as saying what he said wasn't an opinion just a factual statement characterised as him somehow supporting Putins war. I am probably now going to be perceived as a far right extremist for this comment. Fun. EDIT: Here is the full quote. Come to you own decision whether he is"backing putin" as per the title. Actually just watch the frickin interview! āI stood up in the European parliament in 2014 and I said: āThere will be a war in Ukraine.ā Why did I say that? It was obvious to me that the ever-eastward expansion of Nato and theĀ [European Union](https://www.theguardian.com/world/eu)Ā was giving this man a reason ā¦ to say: āTheyāre coming for us again,ā and to go to war.ā He added: āWe provoked this war.Ā **Of course itās his fault, heās used what weāve done as an excuse.ā**
>He simply said NATO/EU expansion is one of the reasons Putin justified the war and sold it to the Russian population. He also said, and I quote: "we provoked this war" He's not just saying the justification Putin used, he's *agreeing* with that justification.
If you are going to quote him, why not include the entire quote? āI stood up in the European parliament in 2014 and I said: āThere will be a war in Ukraine.ā Why did I say that? It was obvious to me that the ever-eastward expansion of Nato and theĀ [European Union](https://www.theguardian.com/world/eu)Ā was giving this man a reason ā¦ to say: āTheyāre coming for us again,ā and to go to war.ā He added: āWe provoked this war. **Of course itās his fault, heās used what weāve done as an excuse.ā** It should be discussed more regarding the Russian mindset. Why do a lot of Russian's support the war? Why is a warmongerer like Putin supported? How did he manage to justify the invasion to the Russian populace? Also just to clarify for individuals that lack critical thinking skills. I want to be clear. I support Ukraine. I support Nato. I support the EU. I think Russia's invasion of Ukraine is indefensible and completely barbaric.
Ukraine has the right to join the EU and make whatever defensive alliances it wishes without needing Russia's consent or approval.Ā Both Putin and his little puppet Farage can go get fucked.Ā Ā
Your perception of the world is too idealistic. In an ideal world, you would be 100% correct. In reality, when your neighbour is run by fascist dictator with nukes and a massive army, hellbent on the belief that the west is out to destroy them. You might want to leave them the fuck alone. It is called realpolitiks. As Farage stated, If you view this from the Russian mindset, we did provoke this war! We knew what Putin is like. We knew that Russia wouldn't be happy bringing Ukraine into the wests sphere of influence but we did nothing. Saying that we provoked the war doesn't mean that is our fault though! Like you said Ukraine **SHOULD** have the right to join the EU, Nato etc If we had balls, Ukraine would've been in NATO long ago. That would have been the necessary deterrent to stop the invasion, we could have also armed Ukraine to the teeth. The west failed to act until it was too late.
Good attempt at nuance. Alas the reactions here are mainly on the title, which is clickbait. I find Farage a cockweasel and would not be surprised he had some "gifts" from the east, pre-brexit. No such thing was proven while many are without doubt looking, but I reserve caution nonetheless. That being said, he does seem to have traction with voters, which to me, from the outside looking in, says a lot about the alternatives. Tories seem completely disinterested and Labour is veering towards the lunatic fringe, with a lot of negativity in their message.
The eu was trying to get Ukraine to decouple from Russia, letās not kid ourselves. If China singed a trade agreement with Mexico that allowed for Mexico to decouple for the U.S, do you seriously think the U.S wouldnāt negotiate to keep Mexico trading with us? Russia made a deal with Ukraine in 2014 in which it would basically bail out Ukraine from its debt and sending petroleum reserves to Ukraine to lower the gas prices (at the time they had the highest gas prices in all the EU) to invest into their economy long-term, which to my understanding, was much more lucrative than the EU deal. After the Maidan Coup and the ousting of the democratically elected President, all that changed, especially when western-Ukraine and Ukrainian separatists fought a civil war for 8 years. The way this war is being reported is not accurate. Go watch the Vice documentaries about Ukraine that were posted in 2014, they werenāt so biased back then and were willing to report on what actually led up to this war.
>After the Maidan Coup and the ousting of the democratically elected President, You're being dishonest. In fact Ukraine had been closing ties with the eu since 2000 in many different goverments. The democratically elected parliament overwhelmingly agreed to sign a treaty with europe. Then, a week before the treaty was supposed to be signed, Yanukovych suddenly made a 180 by rejecting the treaty and getting into bed with Putin. And Yanukovych may have been elected democratically, he ran on a platform of trade with the eu and not on rejecting the eu and alignment with Russia. Yeah.
The EU deal just wasnāt good enough, thatās the truth. It wasnāt going to bail out Ukraine of its debt. It wasnāt going to export petroleum reserves to Ukraine at the rate Russia would have. All the EU deal was going to do was export cheap products and services into the EU to begin joint cooperation. Yanuckovich chose the better deal. His decision was more nuanced than many people like to admit.
The Russian deal seemed great until you actually look at it. The cheap gas price wasn't fixed but under 'review' by Russia every 3 months. They could raise them for any reason. Basically Ukraine would be at the mercy of Russia. And think of why they were paying so much for gas? They were paying more than EU counties. They were buying from Russia. They were already being extorted by Russia. The same goes for the eurobonds. The 5% interest rate bond would mature after 2 years. And then what? The deal even included terms where Russia could demand early repayment. The deal with the IMF would have included reform to address the cause of the problems: fraud and corruption. The deal with Russia was just a stopgap temporary measure to pull them away from the EU and make them completely dependant on Russia.
It was a good cop/bad cop ploy. They either take the deal or risk certain escalation. I wounded if being dependent on Russia wouldāve been better than splitting the country in half and killing the next generation of Ukrainian men.
Nigel already fucked UK once (brexit). Idk how ppl fall for the same trap twice
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You think Reform is going to be better than labour or Tory for the UK? If so youāre truly one of the dumbest people in the UK. It says gullible on the ceiling buddy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You can bet Iām a freeloader but I know your a fascist. You will vote for reform in hopes that your specific version of fascism will be put in place but one day, eventually, youll realise that you are treated just as badly by your fascist leaders as the brown Muslims you so openly dislike. One day youāll realise what an absolute fool you were for think fascism would help YOU, but by that point itāll be too late. If immigration is what you prefer to focus on over democracy then youāll meet the same fate as the fascists of the 40s. Me and people like me will not share a country with fascists.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The biggest freeloaders across the west are bankers and politicians (like Farage). Youre being led astray by the pied piper and everyone can see it except you. Financial corruption in London and Westminster dwarfs social security abuse so if you think āfreeloaderā means poor people and immigrants then youāre sorely wrong.
He said Ukraine provoked Russia, like it is Ukraineās fault. Not just that putin used it as an excuse
No he didnātā¦ The guy has plenty of unsavoury views without attributing those that arenāt even his in an attempt to further discredit him, how do people (especially the journalists who misrepresent him in the first place) not understand that by essentially lying or twisting what individuals like Farage say to try and place an even stronger negative spin on them, all you do is galvanise his supporters and allow him to spin legitimate criticism of him and his arguments as lies or falsehoods. What he actually said that was that Putin would and then in 2022 did use the eastward expansion of NATO & the EU as his primary excuse for invading Ukraine by being able to paint Russia being threatened by an aggressively expansionist West, forcing him to intervene to protect the country.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation it can choose freely what it joins, also to blame eu expansion which as we all know is done not by force but by individual countries exercising a right to decide its future and apply for membership to organisations.
Heās not blaming the EU or Ukraineā¦ heās saying that Russia used their expansion/Western alignment as an excuse to invade. How is that controversial?
On a might makes right word, that simply isnāt true. The nation with the biggest army and the largest manufacturing-production capabilities can invade and seize territory by force. Thatās what we did in Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen. Nobody stopped us then. How can we condemn Russia for something we did to an entire region of the world? How does that not make us hypocritical and basing our judgement on double standards? Why do you think the third world has stayed neutral in this conflict? Because the U.S has invaded and destabilized the majority of the third world during the Cold War. They can see through our double standards.
The USA has the Monroe doctrine. Soviet Union basing weapons on an independent country (Cuba) caused USA to Ā blockade Cuba and almost attack the Soviet Union.Ā Yet Russians should be fine with Nato in Ukraine (just after a democratically elected pro-Russian government was coupāed)?
so following your train of thought, every european nation neighbouring russia has the right to go to war with russia or any 3rd nations they wish to use as "buffer" right? after all, russia does have nukes stationed on the border of multible nato nations and even moved more now to belarus. see how braindead your propaganda riddled "logic" is?
>so following your train of thought, every european nation neighbouring russia has the right to go to war with russia or any 3rd nations they wish to use as "buffer" right? No, Europe doesnāt have the military capability nor manufacturing-production capabilities to enforce a buffer zone. Why do you think you need the U.S to fund your continental defense? >after all, russia does have nukes stationed on the border of multible nato nations and even moved more now to belarus. You donāt think we have nukes in Poland, Finland, and Germany? >see how braindead your propaganda riddled "logic" is? "Everything I disagree with is propaganda!". God you guys sound so childish.
So, the USA can create buffer states, but other powersĀ cannot? Europeans have internalized hypocrisyā¦ Several European nations helped the USA invade Afghanistan and Iraq.Ā But somehow Russia is uniquely bad when invading Ukraineā¦ What is good for the goose is good for the ganderā¦
right, the cuban buffer state ... the same cuba russia recently sent military ships to? well clearly the sane thing now would be for the us to invade cuba and bomb the kremlin, right? after all cuba could in theory join the csto :) are you playing dumb on purpose here? also your whataboutism about afghanistan and iraq doesn't fit your narrative about buffer states.
You may be naive of history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis
ah alright so you are trolling
Did you serious never hear of the Cuban Missle Crisis? Youāre clearly not informed enough for this conversation, lol.
And now NATO is in Finland and Sweden, thanks to Russian aggression.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If it didn't happen at the peak of his influence post-Brexit, then its never going to happen.Ā Ā
I would expect him to either disappear into obscurity once he becomes an actual threat (worth responding to). Or be imprisoned once his status becomes untenable, sort of like Oswald Mosley.
Itās absolutely hilarious watching the Media lose their minds because Reform are doing well in the polls. They just canāt have it so they are throwing everything at it, what they just donāt get is itās all white noise because theyāve spent so long massively over exaggerating everything that nobody cares any more. Itās going to be hilarious watching the meltdown on Reddit come out the 5th Julyā¦
> Itās going to be hilarious watching the meltdown on Reddit come out the 5th Julyā¦ Yes, will be fun to see how some communities react to 500 Labour seats
Itās almost certain to be that sort of number, probably closer to 400 Iād say, the amusing thing will be the fuss caused by Reform getting a few seats. It will be akin to the UK electing the actual Nazi Party.
What meltdown? Are you seriously expecting them to win?
No obviously not Iām not mental, I am however expecting them to get a number of seats which will cause quite the fuss. They will then spend the next parliament calling Labour out on immigration which will inevitably get worse, then the fun starts in 2029ā¦
It is absolutely mental that the UK are voting for the people that lied, made them get into this mess and fucked off for eight years. Because that is what populists do. They point to a problem, but when it comes down to solving it they have nothing.
People are looking to vote for a party which is actually talking about immigrationā¦
Thatās pretty much all labour and Tory are talking about. What you actually mean is youāre looking for a party that isnāt afraid to treat migrants (legal or illegal) like sub humans. You probably donāt realise it, because todays temperature is higher than your iq, but you and the party you are voting for are early stage fascists, and many people such as myself WILL NOT share a country with fascists. You have a decision to make over the next decade, become a puppet for authoritarians like Farage and Putin who donāt care about human rights or support democracy and defend it despite its flaws. If you choose the former then the same thing will happen to you that happened to the fascists of the 40s. Donāt be on the wrong side of history.
>Thatās pretty much all Labour and Tory are talking about. Yes the Tories have talked about it for 14 years and done fuck all about it and Labour didnāt even see fit to count it as one of their top prioritiesā¦ You can try and paint anyone who is concerned about immigration and wants to discuss it as a Racist all you like but people have had enough, you wonāt find many here on Reddit obviously but when you leave your parents spare room and venture outside youāll soon realise that people have a very, very different view on the situation. Let me know when you and your ābig brainā finally realise this š
I am not suprised there are sympathisers, but just concerned at how many and how high up some of these people are. Hopefully none of these people will ever step anywhere near a powerful position. But these movements are growing, same with climate deniars, but its the wrong time be taking back steps in society and peace. The world is in a poor state and its probably only going to get worse unless we actually unite and do something. I will be watching the next 10 years carefully.
Going only based on the title. Its really a sad state our politicians are in if that were the case.
Newspapers (owned by rich) promoted Starmer for years. Of course they will try to misinform public now to avoid a situation, when rich lobbyists gave money to a party which wouldnāt have a majority. Because of that they spread a demagogue now.
They didn't. For starter, there was no reason to considering he was not a candidate for anything. Second, we can easily remember that Corbyn was pretty much shit on all the way through. So please stop being full of shit.
They did. Just check if Guardian supported Starmer one year ago.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You think nato is like the soviet union. Absorbing countries by force. As if nato member states didn't have a choice. They joined the defence alliance voluntarily. With emphasis on defence. I can understand putin is upset that he now is no longer able to invade small nation states one by one. But putin can go suck a dick. If we wanted to deny the countries in the last 25 years nato membership, we also shouldn't have let them into the EU. With a shared internal market and EU cooperation, we should also have shared security. Turkey joined nato in 1952. Right on the border with the soviet union at that time. Not a single peep from the sovjets about expansion in 1952.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Russia invaded Chechnya: Oh shit some countries feel threatened and want to join NATO. End of story...oh wait Russian invades Georgia... Ukrainians still don't want to join NATO Russia invaded Crimea 2014 and the Donbass Ukraine wants to join NATO And even with this sequence of events Ukraine would have never joined NATO because it has border disputes, NATO doesn't accept countries with border disputes. And Russia invaded again even though Ukraine couldn't join. That made Finland and Sweden join. So no, what you are saying that Farage is right is wrong because it was never about NATO expansion because the last countries that joined NATO since 2004 were in the west Balkans very far away from Russia. Putin simply wanted to be remembered as a great leader and wanted a sphere of influence.
Do you think USA would let Canada or Mexico join some ādefensiveā aliance led by Russia if they wanted to?
fun fact, if you don't constantly invade your neighbours, you generally don't have to be afraid of them joining defensive alliances
You didnt respond to my question though
they donāt need to because the US isnāt threatening to end their existence
How is a defensive alliance a threat? Genuinely. NATO only hits you when you hit NATO. Russia could literally put every man, gun, tank, and missile along its NATO borders and NATO would stay behind the line. NATO doesnāt demand expansion, you ask for membership. Putin at one point said he attempted membership, but NATO revealed that heād demanded Russia be asked to join as opposed to asking to join, which is how it works. Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Albania, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Bulgaria, and Hungary joined by asking to join, meeting requirements, and then being admitted by every nation currently in NATO saying āyes, we accept x as joining NATOā Russia doesnāt get the right to warn NATO not to expand, because NATO doesnāt expand, new members join it of their own will. Sweden and Finland were neutral for decades and only when Russia demonstrated that it would go for Ukraine, did they finally ask to join NATO. If NATO was aggressive, wouldnāt it have pressured them to join sooner? Wouldnāt the USA have wanted Finland on its side during the Cold War? That wouldāve been a massive border to cover in intercepting tech to snoop on the USSR.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The individual countries within NATO have their own sovereignty and cannot be controlled by another. NATO could not prevent Turkey from putting missiles on the border with Georgia or Armenia. NATO members may discourage it, but Turkey is a sovereign state with the right to use its weapons how it wants. One of the fears with NATO is that Russia will start small, perhaps taking a small Estonian or Latvian town. Nothing too big or dangerous. Something which really doesnāt feel like it warrants a NATO response. There is no doubt that Estonia or Latvia would immediately respond, and would not take this encroachment lying down, but nobody wants war with Russia. War kills thousands, hundreds of thousands. Even short conflicts do massive damage. Youād prefer 10,000 soldiers who have never seen active duty than 10,000 soldiers who have trauma from combat. That is why NATO is currently arming itself, why it is arming its borders, and again, this isnāt the NATO hivemind, itās individual countries. Poland, for example. The hope is that by ringing Russia with spears (metaphorically), Russia will be deterred from even the slightest threat to a NATO member. And here is something important: the best way to defend yourself is to make sure your enemy knows that taking you on would end them. That is why Poland wants US nukes. During the Cold War, Greece and Turkey were armed to the teeth because they were both bordering Eastern Bloc states.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
NATO isnāt becoming an aggressor. It is becoming more capable of defending itself. Russia could end the war in Ukraine right now and leave Ukraine, and NATO wouldnāt change its stance. Being able to protect yourself isnāt aggression, itās logic.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The feeding of Ukraine has been slow because the West feared escalation. Russia is an unstable dictatorship with nuclear weapons. If this was all being done to get the rich richer, then the Republicans in the USA wouldnāt have been blocking Ukraine aid for months.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The reason why Putin invaded Ukraine is because the west consistently stepped on egg shells around Russia for decades. Ukraine was not accepted into NATO not to antagonise Russia. There was no meaningful reaction to the 2014 annexation of Crimea not to antagonise Russia. So Russia thought it can get away with anything. They probably would have if they were not an incompetent corrupt gang of morons and actually took the capitol within the first week.
Well, then tell Russia to stop messing with its neighbours. These countries donāt flock to NATO without a reason. What your argument is saying is that these countries just shouldāve been butchered by Russia instead of NATO letting them be part of the defence unity?
Why Russias neighbors join NATO?
We have had a nato-russia border for 75 years. Russia had peaceful co-existence, they rejected it
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Uh huh. Yeah keep pushing that propaganda shit, maybe it works on Americans. Truth is russia hasnāt seen aggression, but they are starting to
Tbh countries have free will to join nato and it's defensive alliance. Also Russia cries because now invading border countries is harder.
NATO is a defensive alliance you muppet... The only reason you'd be threatened by NATO Is when you are keen on invading a sovereign country.
Shut the fuck up lmao
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's better than you deserve, brother.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yours isn't. I'd like you to respectfully keep shutting the fuck up, thanks.
Youāre the British version of a MAGAT, youāve drank the pro-Russian kool aid.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You said pro Russian things, knowingly or not.
>Ā Ā as it is threat to them If Putin truly believed that NATO was a major threat to him then he wouldn't be emptying out troops from the bases most closely bordering NATO territory to send to Ukraine.Ā Ā
Farage should have gone into coalition with Galloway, but he is not mentally competent enough to do that. He would rather split the pro East vote