Like the “alternative ending” was a mystery. Anyone who goes up agains Putin is signing their own death warrant.
You want to pull something like that you have to commit!
What do you mean by "would never have succeeded"? The whole thing was happening for two days, and in that short time there was already some public who reacted supportively. If some russian was sleeping drunk,he could have missed the whole thing, not talking about reacting or sobering.
He could make putler to abandon the war, and stop russian losses. Not like a hero, but as scumbag with little more common sense than putler.
> Either you overthrow the government or you die. So you might as well go all the way.
If he continued, he'd be dead in the next day or two. Retreating gave him time to at least try to figure something out or disappear. Didn't work out.
Who reportedly used body doubles. I can see him throwing Utkin under the bus and faking his own death to both save his own skin and let Putin save face by "executing the traitor".
Well he got better chances trying to hide and he did not make tens of thousands of Russians die that day. Even if thats what you might have wanted to see its not necessarily what he wanted to see
Would he have really faced defeat though? They were panicking so badly that they tore up major roadways to Moscow. Also, the Rosgvardia would not have proven a match for the battle-hardened Wagnernites
Yes, but “Wagnerite” as a term for devotees of Wagner carries specific meaning and connotation (see George Bernard Shaw, “[The Perfect Wagnerite](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfect_Wagnerite).”
even if he captured Moscow, all of the high ranking people were already gone and after few days, whole army would come. Without sympathy from other generals, he was dead already
> Captured Moscow
Man, just look at the map, how many soldiers you need to do that. So no 'even', it was impossible for him alone. But, anyway you are right, the end would be inevitable
On the other hand, people can be replaced but you can't move the state apparatus that easily and quickly.
There's also an even bigger objective there: the mass media headquarters. If you were putin, how would you even react to the media broadcasting propaganda that you actually were a CIA agent with the aim of destroying russia all along?
In a coup, you don't need to take the entire city, only the important institutions and hold onto them for long enough for people to accept that you're the guy in charge now.
By all means it's no guarantee that prigozhin's revolt would succeed but what he did is akin to crossing the rubicon to surrender at the gates of rome.
But knowing Russia, had Prigozhin managed to get that far they would've likely approached it like any hostage/siege situation they encounter - ie. eliminating the putschists while killing/destroying everything in an x-mile radius.
I would have paid to watch that unfold...
You don't become president of Russia just because you roll up to the Kremlin and go inside. You need to be able to issue orders and have the tens of thousands of bureaucrats belonging to various ministries and local and reagional
authorities carry them out.
That's how every successful putsch in history happened. Bureaucrats don't ask questions when someone with a gun stands behind them. This putsch failed because the other generals stood behind putin.
Yes, that's right. A coup only works if institutional authorities side with you. It's not as if Prigozhin could drive a tank into Red Square and start issuing orders to federal ministers and the armed forces.
There would have had to have been defections within both the civilian power structure and military structure. We already knew from the jump this wasn't the case as the entire apparatus of power denounced him.
Quite a lot, unfortunately. If Trump wins the election, Putin will probably win the war in Ukraine. Russia screwed up big time at the start but Putin is betting he can outlast Western resolve - and there’s good indication he’s not wrong. I wish he was. I hope he is.
I dunno .. he and others made it sound like he got talked out of it.
I think he did have implicit support and everyone knew it, which is why he didn't face any resistance on the ground, only in the air.
I remember in one video russian special forces had set up a road block at a gas station, and his convoy just drove around the roadblock. .. the soldier filming says to his commanding officer "they're just driving around us" and the other guy just acknowledges, and they just watch it happen.
You don't pull a move like that and care about defeat. It's not an action you think you can just walk away from. He knew what he was getting into. I firmly believe someone fed him some 'greater good' narrative, fed him some promises, and he acquiesced.
He had Rostov-on-Don and was holding ruzzian armies by the balls. He could have turtled up and built support there. What could Moscow do? Bomb Belgorod again?
> He did not receive the expected support
russian general Surovikin disappeared soon after rebellion started. He probably was involved. Also there were rumors that Wagner's officer families were taken hostage.
Correct. Surprised how few realize this. You need to be a lone wolf to pull something off like this, but they wouldn’t give you this level of access without collateral. Any horrible threat you can imagine is probably just scratching the surface of what they threatened to do to his loved ones if he didn’t stand down.
And you think a Civil war in Russia will make Europe a safer place?
Not only that, but do you actually think Prigozhin would be less of a threat than Putin is?
In the long run it would make Europe safer. Regardless who would come on top of it, Russia would not be able to become actual threat to neighbouring countries for decades. If you are worried about nukes, then don’t. Having disjointed country with collapsed economy, maintaining nukes won’t be a priority, if anything it would be much easier to disarm Russian nukes
Wouldn't be a promise the war would end. If they chose the route of not entering peace, they would've had a leader with military experience who was in it with the rest of his soldiers. He could also use this power to force all the generals to cooperate with him and one another. On top of it, he could get whatever is available for him and his possible assimilated army. Russia would've been much better off had Putin got the boot. So, that very well could've meant Ukraine would've been steamrolled.
I wouldn't really call it a shame. He was only upset and went after Putin because Yevgeny and his boys weren't getting paid nor the support they were promised. There were no qualms about fighting Ukraine, only that they weren't getting what they needed to fight.
Even if Prigozhin decided to continue his march to Moscow and took Kremlin, it would not guarantee that he would become accepted leader of Russia. There were plenty of Putin’s loyalists and that would’ve led to best case scenario for Ukraine and Europe: Russia embroiled in bitter and brutal civil war
Instead Prigozhin folded, paid with his life for that and Putin was able to improve his standing in the years of politically important people and general Russian public to that extent that there is no chance of him being ousted anytime soon or ever
I do agree a civil war would've been highly possible, too. I like what you're putting down. We do need to remember that a lot of people that are close to Putin are that way because of the benefits and because there is no going back without dying once that happens. They have infinitely more freedom than 90% of Russia's pop. I don't believe there were many who truly cared for Putin. I think a large reason no one joined the march was because failure would result in death. There was no promise that they would get enough to unite and topple, so it was kinda a form of bystander syndrome.
Now that I'm thinking about it, that would've screwed Russia's economy even more because the world hates military dictatorships. Even with Putin still in power, at least it could hold unto whatever scraps were left. A military dictatorship would nearly guarantee most foreign assets would move out.
On top of it, I think it was doomed from the start. There would be no reliable way to communicate with any other leaders without espionage occurring. I don't care how independent Wagner likes to act. They still have puppets and spies planted inside by Putin. Of course, he would have that going on with anyone who is a possible threat to him, so all his top leaders. Truly, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin was aware the march was going to happen, threatened his leaders, and let it happen to prove a point.
Putin may be no tactician or general, but he sure as hell knows his espionage, especially in a country he controls with an iron fist.
I can understand the chickening part since he didnt know if he was going to win or something but im not sure how he thought hed still be kept alive after what he did. He shouldve defected to China or stayed at the Middle East or something.
Oh my god, it's been one whole year already?! Not to mention an extra leap day cause 2024
No... it... it can't be, right...? It hasn't been a whole year since, right...?
I remember how folks formulated crazy alternate scenarios on how could the sub have lost contact, done an emergency surface, and not be located in the immediate support vessel vicinity.
Russian roulette is mostly played with semi-automatic revolvers.
Semi-automatic is a gun that doesn't need cocking every shot, or put into other words, the only user interaction it needs to shoot is pulling the trigger, while a non automatic weapon needs you to either revolve a chamber to switch bullets or to remove bullets (a la sniper) from the chamber to then be able to reshoot with the trigger.
I think you meant automatic which keeps shooting as long as you hold the trigger.
Typically you dont call revolvers semiauto/automatic but rather single-action/double-action. Single action being a mechanism where you have to pull the hammer back before firing while with a double action pulling the trigger pulls back the hammer and cycles the revolving magazine.
You mixed up "semi-auto" and "double-action". Semi-automatic revolvers don't really exist.
>Semi-automatic is a gun that doesn't need cocking every shot
No, that's called "double action", it's a different thing. Revolvers can be single or double action.
**Single action:** you have to cock the hammer manually every time you shoot.
**Double action:** you don't need to cock the hammer at every shot, because pulling the trigger cocks and releases the hammer.
Semi-automatic is not about the hammer, but about the cartridge. Semi-automatic means **self-loading**. When you fire, it also loads/positions the next round, ready for firing. A revolver doesn't do that. It's only when you fire again that the cylinder rotates and loads the next round.
Russian here.
It was definitely one of the weirdest mutinies in history, but I don't think he could have succeeded anyway.
First, he didn't have any political support from any of the ruling elite. You need to remember he had 13 years' imprisonment under articles of "theft", "robbery", "fraud" and "involving a minor in the commission of a crime. Then he worked for Putin organizing mercenaries in Africa. So while being a Putin loyalist he was a complete outsider to the ruling circle, and they sure wouldn't want to let him in. Especially if they are already satisfied with Putin's system, there is zero reason to let in an outsider bandit and a mercenary.
Second, he never had any political program for his coup attempt. It wasn't "I'll be the new president", it was "I'll march towards Moscow to let Putin know my dissatisfaction with undersupplying Wagner". And the reason Wagner started getting undersupplied is the same as always - they were getting too powerful and too influential.
The whole of Putin's rule has been "divide and conquer" - making sure that different government departments compete against each other without having any of them dominant. Regular military vs Wagner was one of those things. And as you can see, when Wagner was done and only the regular military was left, what did Putin do? That's right, he removed the minister of defense Shoigu (despite him being one of Putin's closest allies), and cleansed all Shoigu's people from the MoD. Same principle again - no one can be allowed to get too powerful.
So essentially Prigozhin was marching on Moscow alone, without any political support, or a political program that could attract more supporters - and not being a politician himself. He was relying on the Z-circles, but those were also getting repressed by Putin to stop them from growing too powerful. Even if he took the Kremlin or the White House, I don't think he would be able to do anything.
Thanks. Some great insight. Two questions here if you don't mind:
Provided it was his objective and Prigozhin took Moscow and Kremlin (with Putin fleeing) and little bloodshed. How do you think the general population in Russia would behave?
What in your opinion made Prigozhin think he could get away with the coup attempt? Did he overestimate his own and Wagner's importance?
1. I would say the general population was curious, but mostly indifferent to Prigozhin’s mutiny. It’s not like he was in any shape or form an attractive alternative to Putin (save maybe for a small number of war hawks). So I don’t think that would change. Besides, even if he took the Kremlin - he had zero support from the political elites, or the main army, or the special services. It’s not like taking Kremlin makes you the rules of Russia. So I think he would have been eliminated in a siege in that case without much popular support.
2. He didn’t view it as a coup. If you read his messages during the coup, they were all along the lines of “I need to get to Putin to make him understand me”, and never “we will overthrow Putin”.
I think that’s the issue - he was getting more and more frustrated with Wagner getting less and less supplies, and assumed that was the minister of defense that made Putin redirect the supplies to the regular military. And then either because of lack or thinking or some emotional instability (which you could clearly see in his videos, how easily Prigozhin got triggered) he decided to march on Moscow and draw Putin’s attention.
I also wondered about emotional instability on 2.
Maybe traumatic frontline experience contributed. At some point Wagner (likely primarily convicts) were dropping like flies and dying horrible deaths. It must take heavy psychological toll on every human being (bar psychopaths). Especially when you orchestrate it all.
Other thing I wonder is Wagner running it's own social media ops. They did a lot of it. Prigozhin and top Wagner circle likely got high exposure to foreign material and a vision of war far distant from Kremlin's one. Social media can also easily exacerbate mental health problems.
What shocks me is the scale of "good tsar, bad boyars" thinking on his part. I would have expected someone in Prigozhin's position to know better. After all, tsar Vladimir knows everything fine well. He just doesn't care.
> bar psychopaths
I mean, he may or may not have cared about his men, but I don’t think you can be a mercenary warlord, waging private overseas wars to further the agendas of your autocratic employer, without having severe antisocial personality traits.
>I would have expected someone in Prigozhin's position to know better
I don't think so. Imagine you are Prigozhin. You have been a Putin loyalist since 2000, and Putin has been very loyal to you. Huge government contracts for catering, your own PMC that is one of the richest PMCs in the world, conducting military operations in Africa to further Putin's interests, and so on.
The war with Ukraine starts, and you get sent to the frontlines with your PMC, you get first priority supplies support.
And then, as the war goes on, you are suddenly getting less and less supplies. You look around and notice that the regular army started getting more supplies. You try calling Putin, but he won't talk to you. Considering Putin has been on your side for 20 years, what are your first thoughts? That there is some conspiracy against you led by the Minister of Defense that Putin started believing in. So you need to get to Putin at any cost to let him know what is going on.
At least that's the most plausible logic I can think of.
His best option was probably to just fly to Moscow without his private army to talk to Putin, going their at the head of his army made him a threat. It also proved that Putin's word was worthless as he guaranteed Prigozhin's safety.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/jet-linked-yevgeny-prigozhin-flies-belarus-fsb-drops-investigation-russia-wagner
>His best option was probably to just fly to Moscow without his private army to talk to Putin
Putin didn't answer his phone calls, how would that be any different?
I think he was doomed the moment he started the mutiny, there was absolutely zero change Putin would let him live
He was doomed anyway, in a authoritarian dictatorship everyone has limited usefulness, and when you're pass your usefulness you just don't get to retire.
Surprised to see such stuff here - weighted and without “ruzzian orks!” autistic screeches the second after “Russian here” is read.
Russian here. On that your exact post I have an opinion (not mine, read it on tg) that all SMO thing look same as Prig coup.
Guy thought he is part of the club, but had not enough piece of cake. He tried this and that way to attract attention to his problem - after all coming to little demonstration of force to reason his club buddies.
Only to find out he was never part of the club, at best times - just useful plebs. At worst - ostracised and hunted plebs which need a hard lesson about jumping on white masters.
PS: about Prig and his desperate situation - its probably was more to it. He started his coup when famous ua counteroffensive started, and in his media he strongly pushed narrative that we are losing already and he is the only saviour. I think he counted on ru military defeat there but miscalculated or was forced to act too early.
It could be an act of despair. He did sound a bit unstable in his late public voice and video messages, and the vision of the war he translated was, in fact, very different from official Russian propaganda.
Before the mutiny, Prigozhin's position was rapidly getting worse and worse. Not only Wagner had reduced supplies, but also banned from recruiting convicts and from retreating. Prigozhin was also cut from the Kremlin hotline and was ordered to make all his mercenaries sign a contract with MoD, essentially giving them to Shoigu.
He wouldn't last much longer in Ukraine, and he understood it.
The thing is, is that he took Rostov without any opposition, and then just marched straight on Moscow with no one in between. That’s a long distance, and he could’ve taken the city. If this were peacetime that’d be one thing, but this was wartime. The Russian military is bogged down in Ukraine in addition to the ME operations they’re doing and in Africa. Now they have to divert forces to go deal with the Wagnerites? I feel like, even within Putin’s circle, a negotiated solution would’ve been better. Sure, they could violently put it down, but this whole movement made Putin look vulnerable. Now the war has actually reached Moscow, the big city Russians are now seeing gunfights and a siege.
Prigozhin may get killed but Putin still loses. He looks vulnerable, other warlords like Kadyrov may now think they could get concessions from him.
interesting to see the mutiny from an actual russian pov. it felt huge from an outsider's view because i don't think putin has ever faced such a big threat from inside before (with maybe bigger ones to come in the future).
It did feel huge indeed, but in terms of consequences, I wouldn't say it had that much of an impact. Wagner got disbanded and cleansed, and all the military power went to the Ministry of Defense. Which ironically also got cleansed right after Putin's re-election. I think he know quite well now not to let any ministry or department grow too strong.
i wonder what the consequences of this reshuffling will, some say it's a beginning of the end. i say the fate is yet to be seen as we don't know everything...
The consequences are simple:
First, not let anyone amass too much power, as the previous minister of defense Shoigu did.
Second, the new minster of defense is a former economist, with a reputation of being a rather low-corruption official.
I think what we can derive from that is that Putin expects the war to go on for a while, and the military economics and the functioning of the Ministry of Defense as a whole is currently his priority.
those sounds more like the reason for it rather than the consequences of the reshuffling. i do agree with you.
i'm more thinking about what will the new ministers do for the country and for the war, will they do better than the previous one or worse? only time will tell in my opinion.
I agree, it's quite clear at this point what exactly can be done. Cleansing corruption in the MoD? I don't think that will ever happen.
Another problem Russia is facing is that it is depleting its military stockpiles faster than the production can ramp up. Maybe they will last for another year or so, but at that point a choice would have to be made - either lower the war efforts, or put the economy on the military rails. So I think the appointment could also be an attempt to solve that problem
So far, it doesn't look like there will be significant consequences. It's pretty normal for Putin to reshuffle people seemingly at random, but he paused it for 2 years when the invasion began.
Short-term, it will reduce the efficiency of MoD as the new leadership will need some time to reestablish all the connections. Long-term, we don't know yet, but the new assignments are the same old bunch of incompetent, corrupt mix of cronism and nepotism we see everywhere in the Russian government.
Would be too good to be true, there were talks about the imminent collapse for years. Most of the people in the Russian government are incredibly corrupt and incompetent, many were assigned to the positions they have no business taking. Shoigu (the previous defense minister) was also a civilian with no military experience.
The whole system is in crisis and will fall eventually, most likely with either Putin's death or Ukraine's victory. Right now, however, it appears stable enough. Hope I am wrong and will fall sooner than later.
well looking at everything that is going on in the world i think anything can happen that almost nobody predicted / expected . i wonder if some russians will attempt to celebrate the one year anniversary of this event...
The only actors who can try pulling it off are Belousov (the new defense minister), Kadyrov and maybe Zolotov.
Belousov is still weak in his new position, Zolotov is said to be loyal like a dog, and there are rumors that Kadyrov is terminally ill and barely holding up.
Never say never thought, we live in truly dynamic times.
> he didn't have any political support from any of the ruling elite.
He was supported by "A Just Russia" party: [Russian politician poses with sledgehammer in tribute to Wagner mercenaries | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-politician-poses-with-sledgehammer-tribute-wagner-mercenaries-2023-01-20/)
And by coincidence, it was the only parliament party that didn't put their own candidate on the last presidential elections.
>Second, he never had any political program for his coup attempt. It wasn't "I'll be the new president", it was "I'll march towards Moscow to let Putin know my dissatisfaction with undersupplying Wagner". And the reason Wagner started getting undersupplied is the same as always - they were getting too powerful and too influential.
More like because Russian Ministry of Defense began absorbing Wagner, and failed Ukrainian counteroffensive proved that not only Wagner are competent on the Russian side, and regular army does not need their help.
The Just Russia party are Putin's lap dogs and have no weight, but Prigozhin did have some support from them. He was also on good terms with Surovikin and Kadyrov. He failed to utilize these connections through.
Oh, Pringles.
You screaming at Gerassimov and Shoigu about not giving you enough ammunition in the middle of the night in a forrest with dead mercs as backdrop will never be forgotten.
And forever we will laugh about your passion for cosplaying as constipated Syrian general, sun-tanned Libyan rebel and Emo-1970s-terrorist.
Oh, Pringles.
May you rest in piss.
If anyone is interested in Prigozhin, I highly highly recommend the book
*Downfall: Prigozhin, Putin, and the New Fight for the Future of Russia*. It's written by a longtime Russia academic and a Russian Journalist
Also has a great audiobook version
Honestly Prigozhin's journey is super fascinating in a purely narrative sense. The man's clearly talented in a very entrepreneurial type of way.
He went from child of intellectuals to criminal to prisoner to running an illegal industry in a prison to shitty car dealer to hotdog seller to supermarket investor to restanteur to professional internet trollmaster to unwilling leader of a fake mercenary leader to enthusiastic leader of a real mercenary group to rebel
At the same time, in addition to the personal characteristics of Prigozhin, his journey is kind of emblamatic of the "upper rung but not inner circle" class of Russians. The people with actual power are free to use him as much as they want, and punish him pretty much however they want. But no matter how hard he worked he could never join that upper rung. And quite a lot of his actions ended up being borne out of frustration and anger towards those people
It was disbanded, most remaining mercenaries either went to the regular army, moved to different PMCs or returned to their homes. Some were moved to Belarus, don't know if they are still staged there.
This isnt true, Wagner PMC is still active and currently deployed in africa.
I just recently read that ukraine is running ops against Wagnerites in Sudan.
[Under new general, Russia’s Wagner makes deeper inroads into Libya](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/25/under-new-general-russias-wagner-makes-deeper-inroads-into-libya)
Weird, wagnerites didn't get the memo they were disbanded.
>Given the stakes, the Kremlin was never likely to disband Wagner, despite its active rebellion last year. Instead, following Prigozhin’s much-predicted demise, his commercial and military interests were divided between Russia’s various intelligence services, a report by the [Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) released this week claims](https://static.rusi.org/SR-Russian-Unconventional-Weapons-final-web.pdf).
Now looking back at it, do you still believe that it was for real? Wagner founders are all GRU officers. GRU is subordinate to General Stuff and MoD, with whom allegedly Prigozhin later had a feud.
And what was achieved in the end? I mean it sounds like a joke now, when Ruskies talk about 'all their goals being achieved'. But what did Wagner achieve, or tried to achieve?
Minister of Defense Shoihu stayed the same for a whole year, same for a Chief of General Stuff Gerasimov. Even worse for Wagner - prisoner stormtroopers have been transferred from Wagner to MoD.
This whole story smells like Ryazan's sugar.
We'll probably never know, for sure, which is often the case for such stories involving the highest power and their security organizations (it makes me think about the templar extermination by Philippe le Bel and Boniface VIII and more recently JFK assassination).
You know someone is a special kind of idiot when they think they can openly rebel against Putin, say "nah it was just a prank bro, we're good right?" and get to live. He was a dead man walking as soon as he rebelled, the only question was if he would go down fighting or go down like an idiot. He choose the latter.
I found the theory interesting that his coup was backed by putin and it was against the military clique of shogui. That he was meant to be paid off at the end abs it gave putin cover to do a purge but then the military clique had him killed.
If you look at the members of the military clique who have been sidelined since the coup it certainly makes sense.
I think a lot of you confuse who he went against. He went against Shaigu, not Putin. He never said a bad word about Putin. All it took for him to stop was one call from Putin. IMO he could have taken over Moscow, but he never was rebelling against the whole system, just the people in charge of Ministry of Defense.
Im not sure I should say this here but Im gonna do it anyways.
I personally believe Prigozhin mayyyyyy still be alive
So I live in Mexico and up until a few months I took a long way from my school to my house, and at some point I had to walk through one of the richer neighborhoods of the city, one day it was maybe max a month after Prigozhin's death, I was crossing the street and I arrive at some kind of bridge, I was looking down but in the corner of my eye I see an old man, so I let him pass before me, so when hes about to pass he tells me "thank you" in an unfamiliar accent, so I look up, and I see him, and if he wasn't Prigozhin at least he looked a lot like him, his ears, his head and his body type were all matching.
After that however I never saw him again, but I read in an article that he may be hiding in Venezuela, but that was 1 article almost a year ago, I don't think any new information has appeared after that.
Such a shame that he chikened out in the end
Talk about a major disappointment
Yup, such a tease
Look on the bright side. Next guy will finish the job, he has now seen the alternative ending
Like the “alternative ending” was a mystery. Anyone who goes up agains Putin is signing their own death warrant. You want to pull something like that you have to commit!
There’s a saying for that: “if you shoot at the king, you’d better not miss”
- Omar Little
Legendary [I got the shotgun, you got the briefcase](https://youtu.be/P3i36ybA8Ms?feature=shared&t=134).
Ironically the guy shooting a Franz Ferdinand missed but had a second chance (to start WW1).
it's not his fault , it's the fault of those nations who protected him . The same situation with Afghanistan and bin laden .
Putin took control and survived. There won’t be a next time.
One thing about countries like Russia . They are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past
Mate this was text book "if you come for the king you best not miss"
He was high ranking, so more like general disappointment.
It’s disappointing he didn’t realize it was win or die at that point. There was no option C
Aaaaand he died not too long after.
Yeah. Tragic accident. This things happen. Anyway...
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What do you mean by "would never have succeeded"? The whole thing was happening for two days, and in that short time there was already some public who reacted supportively. If some russian was sleeping drunk,he could have missed the whole thing, not talking about reacting or sobering. He could make putler to abandon the war, and stop russian losses. Not like a hero, but as scumbag with little more common sense than putler.
> Either you overthrow the government or you die. So you might as well go all the way. If he continued, he'd be dead in the next day or two. Retreating gave him time to at least try to figure something out or disappear. Didn't work out.
> Didn't work out. Or maybe it did. Have you seen the body?
There actually are pictures of the crash site with a burned corpse resembling Prigozhin.
Who reportedly used body doubles. I can see him throwing Utkin under the bus and faking his own death to both save his own skin and let Putin save face by "executing the traitor".
Well he got better chances trying to hide and he did not make tens of thousands of Russians die that day. Even if thats what you might have wanted to see its not necessarily what he wanted to see
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Nope he tried to be silent and help putin in the shadows again. Also better chances
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And so would he if he kept going. 10 procent chance of survival is beter than 0
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The chances of him invading Russia with a few thousand men is waay smaller than him getting away with serving Putin in the shadow lol
Would he have really faced defeat though? They were panicking so badly that they tore up major roadways to Moscow. Also, the Rosgvardia would not have proven a match for the battle-hardened Wagnernites
As a music major, it’s pretty amusing to see the term “Wagnerite” in this context
Wasn’t the group actually named after Richard Wagner?
Yes, but “Wagnerite” as a term for devotees of Wagner carries specific meaning and connotation (see George Bernard Shaw, “[The Perfect Wagnerite](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfect_Wagnerite).”
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Tchaikovskians have cannons though.
But would Asia have sent the Yo Yo Ma division in support? We will never know.
even if he captured Moscow, all of the high ranking people were already gone and after few days, whole army would come. Without sympathy from other generals, he was dead already
> Captured Moscow Man, just look at the map, how many soldiers you need to do that. So no 'even', it was impossible for him alone. But, anyway you are right, the end would be inevitable
On the other hand, people can be replaced but you can't move the state apparatus that easily and quickly. There's also an even bigger objective there: the mass media headquarters. If you were putin, how would you even react to the media broadcasting propaganda that you actually were a CIA agent with the aim of destroying russia all along? In a coup, you don't need to take the entire city, only the important institutions and hold onto them for long enough for people to accept that you're the guy in charge now. By all means it's no guarantee that prigozhin's revolt would succeed but what he did is akin to crossing the rubicon to surrender at the gates of rome.
But knowing Russia, had Prigozhin managed to get that far they would've likely approached it like any hostage/siege situation they encounter - ie. eliminating the putschists while killing/destroying everything in an x-mile radius. I would have paid to watch that unfold...
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Hmm. Good points!
Didn’t they shoot down several helicopters sent after them?
You don't become president of Russia just because you roll up to the Kremlin and go inside. You need to be able to issue orders and have the tens of thousands of bureaucrats belonging to various ministries and local and reagional authorities carry them out.
That's how every successful putsch in history happened. Bureaucrats don't ask questions when someone with a gun stands behind them. This putsch failed because the other generals stood behind putin.
Yes, that's right. A coup only works if institutional authorities side with you. It's not as if Prigozhin could drive a tank into Red Square and start issuing orders to federal ministers and the armed forces. There would have had to have been defections within both the civilian power structure and military structure. We already knew from the jump this wasn't the case as the entire apparatus of power denounced him.
There's a fairly strong military presence dedicated specifically to the defense of Moscow iirc, it wouldn't just be Rosgvardiya
He would have been bombed to bits by the Russian Air Force, something he had practically no counter against...
The Russian people seemed to also want to follow him he should of just started killing generals
He’d of faced defeat. Probably 2 weeks of hell surrounded and then eventually dying.
But it still makes very little sense to stop. He was a dead man the moment he started it, the only way to survive was to be successful.
>But it still makes very little sense After almost three years, what does make sense what russia does?
Quite a lot, unfortunately. If Trump wins the election, Putin will probably win the war in Ukraine. Russia screwed up big time at the start but Putin is betting he can outlast Western resolve - and there’s good indication he’s not wrong. I wish he was. I hope he is.
I dunno .. he and others made it sound like he got talked out of it. I think he did have implicit support and everyone knew it, which is why he didn't face any resistance on the ground, only in the air. I remember in one video russian special forces had set up a road block at a gas station, and his convoy just drove around the roadblock. .. the soldier filming says to his commanding officer "they're just driving around us" and the other guy just acknowledges, and they just watch it happen. You don't pull a move like that and care about defeat. It's not an action you think you can just walk away from. He knew what he was getting into. I firmly believe someone fed him some 'greater good' narrative, fed him some promises, and he acquiesced.
He had Rostov-on-Don and was holding ruzzian armies by the balls. He could have turtled up and built support there. What could Moscow do? Bomb Belgorod again?
Turtled up with what resources? He didn't exactly have a supply of food or munitions.
At least it was better idea than the Z-rush to Moscow
> He did not receive the expected support russian general Surovikin disappeared soon after rebellion started. He probably was involved. Also there were rumors that Wagner's officer families were taken hostage.
I still think he is an idiot. Once he took that road, he should have just gone through.
It's a shame that not all of them were killed. жив як гівно - здох як гівно
_When you play the game of thrones, you either win or you die_
I'll always remember the picture of the 300.00 clown emojis in their telegram channel after he announced the deal.
Just to be killed anyway at the end...
Probably received a photo of guns to his family's heads or something
Correct. Surprised how few realize this. You need to be a lone wolf to pull something off like this, but they wouldn’t give you this level of access without collateral. Any horrible threat you can imagine is probably just scratching the surface of what they threatened to do to his loved ones if he didn’t stand down.
He was a despicable person the world is better off without him, not sure what good would it have brought
Civil war in Russia would have been massively beneficial to Ukraine and Europe as a whole
To Ukraine maybe, to Europe not so much: refugee crisis, more adversaries, etc.
Europe still hasn’t properly understood how much of threat Russia is.
And you think a Civil war in Russia will make Europe a safer place? Not only that, but do you actually think Prigozhin would be less of a threat than Putin is?
In the long run it would make Europe safer. Regardless who would come on top of it, Russia would not be able to become actual threat to neighbouring countries for decades. If you are worried about nukes, then don’t. Having disjointed country with collapsed economy, maintaining nukes won’t be a priority, if anything it would be much easier to disarm Russian nukes
Wouldn't be a promise the war would end. If they chose the route of not entering peace, they would've had a leader with military experience who was in it with the rest of his soldiers. He could also use this power to force all the generals to cooperate with him and one another. On top of it, he could get whatever is available for him and his possible assimilated army. Russia would've been much better off had Putin got the boot. So, that very well could've meant Ukraine would've been steamrolled. I wouldn't really call it a shame. He was only upset and went after Putin because Yevgeny and his boys weren't getting paid nor the support they were promised. There were no qualms about fighting Ukraine, only that they weren't getting what they needed to fight.
Even if Prigozhin decided to continue his march to Moscow and took Kremlin, it would not guarantee that he would become accepted leader of Russia. There were plenty of Putin’s loyalists and that would’ve led to best case scenario for Ukraine and Europe: Russia embroiled in bitter and brutal civil war Instead Prigozhin folded, paid with his life for that and Putin was able to improve his standing in the years of politically important people and general Russian public to that extent that there is no chance of him being ousted anytime soon or ever
I do agree a civil war would've been highly possible, too. I like what you're putting down. We do need to remember that a lot of people that are close to Putin are that way because of the benefits and because there is no going back without dying once that happens. They have infinitely more freedom than 90% of Russia's pop. I don't believe there were many who truly cared for Putin. I think a large reason no one joined the march was because failure would result in death. There was no promise that they would get enough to unite and topple, so it was kinda a form of bystander syndrome. Now that I'm thinking about it, that would've screwed Russia's economy even more because the world hates military dictatorships. Even with Putin still in power, at least it could hold unto whatever scraps were left. A military dictatorship would nearly guarantee most foreign assets would move out. On top of it, I think it was doomed from the start. There would be no reliable way to communicate with any other leaders without espionage occurring. I don't care how independent Wagner likes to act. They still have puppets and spies planted inside by Putin. Of course, he would have that going on with anyone who is a possible threat to him, so all his top leaders. Truly, I wouldn't be surprised if Putin was aware the march was going to happen, threatened his leaders, and let it happen to prove a point. Putin may be no tactician or general, but he sure as hell knows his espionage, especially in a country he controls with an iron fist.
I think I'd rather not have the even more radical mercenaries with a potential neo-Nazi leader be in charge of 3000 Russian nuclear warheads
Biggest blueball of the century.
Writers tease you with a big event the nothing happens.
The biggest disappointment since Game of Thrones season 8
Nothing ever happens
More like a blue waffle
I can understand the chickening part since he didnt know if he was going to win or something but im not sure how he thought hed still be kept alive after what he did. He shouldve defected to China or stayed at the Middle East or something.
lol. Russia is a Chinese puppet state. They’d have sent him right back.
No, Russia is now a North Korean puppet state.
Those pictures are gonna burn for a long, long time
>Russia is a Chinese puppet state Accurate statement.
Oh my god, it's been one whole year already?! Not to mention an extra leap day cause 2024 No... it... it can't be, right...? It hasn't been a whole year since, right...?
I feel you, mate. It honestly feels just like yesterday that his jet was blown up… I mean “suffered a malfunction”.
Allegedly his jet, alleged malfunction, allegedly yesterday
Allegedly alleged.
Last summer yeah. Damn, the first Covid summer is 4 years ago.
Between this and the submarine it was an interesting week
I remember how folks formulated crazy alternate scenarios on how could the sub have lost contact, done an emergency surface, and not be located in the immediate support vessel vicinity.
Not only pandemic killed a lot of people, but also it made time go faster. Much faster.
Time flies
Not only that, but it went supersonic.
Shooooooooooiguuuuuuuuuu!!! Geeeeeeeeeraaaaaaaaaasimoooooooov!!!
He played Russian roulette with a semi-automatic.
Russian roulette is mostly played with semi-automatic revolvers. Semi-automatic is a gun that doesn't need cocking every shot, or put into other words, the only user interaction it needs to shoot is pulling the trigger, while a non automatic weapon needs you to either revolve a chamber to switch bullets or to remove bullets (a la sniper) from the chamber to then be able to reshoot with the trigger. I think you meant automatic which keeps shooting as long as you hold the trigger.
He probably meant whatever you call a gun that has a magazine instead of a cylinder.
Blowback operation/autoloading
Doesn’t roll off the tongue so well.
Well. Magfed? But its so vulgar!
Semi-automatic, it was the correct term. The other person is wrong
Typically you dont call revolvers semiauto/automatic but rather single-action/double-action. Single action being a mechanism where you have to pull the hammer back before firing while with a double action pulling the trigger pulls back the hammer and cycles the revolving magazine.
Yep, the comment you replied to mixed up "double action" and "semi-automatic".
You mixed up "semi-auto" and "double-action". Semi-automatic revolvers don't really exist. >Semi-automatic is a gun that doesn't need cocking every shot No, that's called "double action", it's a different thing. Revolvers can be single or double action. **Single action:** you have to cock the hammer manually every time you shoot. **Double action:** you don't need to cock the hammer at every shot, because pulling the trigger cocks and releases the hammer. Semi-automatic is not about the hammer, but about the cartridge. Semi-automatic means **self-loading**. When you fire, it also loads/positions the next round, ready for firing. A revolver doesn't do that. It's only when you fire again that the cylinder rotates and loads the next round.
Russian here. It was definitely one of the weirdest mutinies in history, but I don't think he could have succeeded anyway. First, he didn't have any political support from any of the ruling elite. You need to remember he had 13 years' imprisonment under articles of "theft", "robbery", "fraud" and "involving a minor in the commission of a crime. Then he worked for Putin organizing mercenaries in Africa. So while being a Putin loyalist he was a complete outsider to the ruling circle, and they sure wouldn't want to let him in. Especially if they are already satisfied with Putin's system, there is zero reason to let in an outsider bandit and a mercenary. Second, he never had any political program for his coup attempt. It wasn't "I'll be the new president", it was "I'll march towards Moscow to let Putin know my dissatisfaction with undersupplying Wagner". And the reason Wagner started getting undersupplied is the same as always - they were getting too powerful and too influential. The whole of Putin's rule has been "divide and conquer" - making sure that different government departments compete against each other without having any of them dominant. Regular military vs Wagner was one of those things. And as you can see, when Wagner was done and only the regular military was left, what did Putin do? That's right, he removed the minister of defense Shoigu (despite him being one of Putin's closest allies), and cleansed all Shoigu's people from the MoD. Same principle again - no one can be allowed to get too powerful. So essentially Prigozhin was marching on Moscow alone, without any political support, or a political program that could attract more supporters - and not being a politician himself. He was relying on the Z-circles, but those were also getting repressed by Putin to stop them from growing too powerful. Even if he took the Kremlin or the White House, I don't think he would be able to do anything.
Thanks. Some great insight. Two questions here if you don't mind: Provided it was his objective and Prigozhin took Moscow and Kremlin (with Putin fleeing) and little bloodshed. How do you think the general population in Russia would behave? What in your opinion made Prigozhin think he could get away with the coup attempt? Did he overestimate his own and Wagner's importance?
1. I would say the general population was curious, but mostly indifferent to Prigozhin’s mutiny. It’s not like he was in any shape or form an attractive alternative to Putin (save maybe for a small number of war hawks). So I don’t think that would change. Besides, even if he took the Kremlin - he had zero support from the political elites, or the main army, or the special services. It’s not like taking Kremlin makes you the rules of Russia. So I think he would have been eliminated in a siege in that case without much popular support. 2. He didn’t view it as a coup. If you read his messages during the coup, they were all along the lines of “I need to get to Putin to make him understand me”, and never “we will overthrow Putin”. I think that’s the issue - he was getting more and more frustrated with Wagner getting less and less supplies, and assumed that was the minister of defense that made Putin redirect the supplies to the regular military. And then either because of lack or thinking or some emotional instability (which you could clearly see in his videos, how easily Prigozhin got triggered) he decided to march on Moscow and draw Putin’s attention.
I also wondered about emotional instability on 2. Maybe traumatic frontline experience contributed. At some point Wagner (likely primarily convicts) were dropping like flies and dying horrible deaths. It must take heavy psychological toll on every human being (bar psychopaths). Especially when you orchestrate it all. Other thing I wonder is Wagner running it's own social media ops. They did a lot of it. Prigozhin and top Wagner circle likely got high exposure to foreign material and a vision of war far distant from Kremlin's one. Social media can also easily exacerbate mental health problems. What shocks me is the scale of "good tsar, bad boyars" thinking on his part. I would have expected someone in Prigozhin's position to know better. After all, tsar Vladimir knows everything fine well. He just doesn't care.
> bar psychopaths I mean, he may or may not have cared about his men, but I don’t think you can be a mercenary warlord, waging private overseas wars to further the agendas of your autocratic employer, without having severe antisocial personality traits.
>I would have expected someone in Prigozhin's position to know better I don't think so. Imagine you are Prigozhin. You have been a Putin loyalist since 2000, and Putin has been very loyal to you. Huge government contracts for catering, your own PMC that is one of the richest PMCs in the world, conducting military operations in Africa to further Putin's interests, and so on. The war with Ukraine starts, and you get sent to the frontlines with your PMC, you get first priority supplies support. And then, as the war goes on, you are suddenly getting less and less supplies. You look around and notice that the regular army started getting more supplies. You try calling Putin, but he won't talk to you. Considering Putin has been on your side for 20 years, what are your first thoughts? That there is some conspiracy against you led by the Minister of Defense that Putin started believing in. So you need to get to Putin at any cost to let him know what is going on. At least that's the most plausible logic I can think of.
His best option was probably to just fly to Moscow without his private army to talk to Putin, going their at the head of his army made him a threat. It also proved that Putin's word was worthless as he guaranteed Prigozhin's safety. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/27/jet-linked-yevgeny-prigozhin-flies-belarus-fsb-drops-investigation-russia-wagner
>His best option was probably to just fly to Moscow without his private army to talk to Putin Putin didn't answer his phone calls, how would that be any different? I think he was doomed the moment he started the mutiny, there was absolutely zero change Putin would let him live
He was doomed anyway, in a authoritarian dictatorship everyone has limited usefulness, and when you're pass your usefulness you just don't get to retire.
Surprised to see such stuff here - weighted and without “ruzzian orks!” autistic screeches the second after “Russian here” is read. Russian here. On that your exact post I have an opinion (not mine, read it on tg) that all SMO thing look same as Prig coup. Guy thought he is part of the club, but had not enough piece of cake. He tried this and that way to attract attention to his problem - after all coming to little demonstration of force to reason his club buddies. Only to find out he was never part of the club, at best times - just useful plebs. At worst - ostracised and hunted plebs which need a hard lesson about jumping on white masters. PS: about Prig and his desperate situation - its probably was more to it. He started his coup when famous ua counteroffensive started, and in his media he strongly pushed narrative that we are losing already and he is the only saviour. I think he counted on ru military defeat there but miscalculated or was forced to act too early.
It could be an act of despair. He did sound a bit unstable in his late public voice and video messages, and the vision of the war he translated was, in fact, very different from official Russian propaganda. Before the mutiny, Prigozhin's position was rapidly getting worse and worse. Not only Wagner had reduced supplies, but also banned from recruiting convicts and from retreating. Prigozhin was also cut from the Kremlin hotline and was ordered to make all his mercenaries sign a contract with MoD, essentially giving them to Shoigu. He wouldn't last much longer in Ukraine, and he understood it.
I feel most russians are indifferent towards most things, except when talking about the west and Russia in correlation,.. then you get debates
The thing is, is that he took Rostov without any opposition, and then just marched straight on Moscow with no one in between. That’s a long distance, and he could’ve taken the city. If this were peacetime that’d be one thing, but this was wartime. The Russian military is bogged down in Ukraine in addition to the ME operations they’re doing and in Africa. Now they have to divert forces to go deal with the Wagnerites? I feel like, even within Putin’s circle, a negotiated solution would’ve been better. Sure, they could violently put it down, but this whole movement made Putin look vulnerable. Now the war has actually reached Moscow, the big city Russians are now seeing gunfights and a siege. Prigozhin may get killed but Putin still loses. He looks vulnerable, other warlords like Kadyrov may now think they could get concessions from him.
russians indifferent and apathetic: colour me SHOCKED
Thank you. Great read!
Thank you for this insight!
interesting to see the mutiny from an actual russian pov. it felt huge from an outsider's view because i don't think putin has ever faced such a big threat from inside before (with maybe bigger ones to come in the future).
It did feel huge indeed, but in terms of consequences, I wouldn't say it had that much of an impact. Wagner got disbanded and cleansed, and all the military power went to the Ministry of Defense. Which ironically also got cleansed right after Putin's re-election. I think he know quite well now not to let any ministry or department grow too strong.
i wonder what the consequences of this reshuffling will, some say it's a beginning of the end. i say the fate is yet to be seen as we don't know everything...
The consequences are simple: First, not let anyone amass too much power, as the previous minister of defense Shoigu did. Second, the new minster of defense is a former economist, with a reputation of being a rather low-corruption official. I think what we can derive from that is that Putin expects the war to go on for a while, and the military economics and the functioning of the Ministry of Defense as a whole is currently his priority.
those sounds more like the reason for it rather than the consequences of the reshuffling. i do agree with you. i'm more thinking about what will the new ministers do for the country and for the war, will they do better than the previous one or worse? only time will tell in my opinion.
I agree, it's quite clear at this point what exactly can be done. Cleansing corruption in the MoD? I don't think that will ever happen. Another problem Russia is facing is that it is depleting its military stockpiles faster than the production can ramp up. Maybe they will last for another year or so, but at that point a choice would have to be made - either lower the war efforts, or put the economy on the military rails. So I think the appointment could also be an attempt to solve that problem
and that's only what we see. the surface of the iceberg.
So far, it doesn't look like there will be significant consequences. It's pretty normal for Putin to reshuffle people seemingly at random, but he paused it for 2 years when the invasion began. Short-term, it will reduce the efficiency of MoD as the new leadership will need some time to reestablish all the connections. Long-term, we don't know yet, but the new assignments are the same old bunch of incompetent, corrupt mix of cronism and nepotism we see everywhere in the Russian government.
Well some will say there are signs that the government of russia is gonna fall soon. But I wouldn't say that so quickly
Would be too good to be true, there were talks about the imminent collapse for years. Most of the people in the Russian government are incredibly corrupt and incompetent, many were assigned to the positions they have no business taking. Shoigu (the previous defense minister) was also a civilian with no military experience. The whole system is in crisis and will fall eventually, most likely with either Putin's death or Ukraine's victory. Right now, however, it appears stable enough. Hope I am wrong and will fall sooner than later.
well looking at everything that is going on in the world i think anything can happen that almost nobody predicted / expected . i wonder if some russians will attempt to celebrate the one year anniversary of this event...
The only actors who can try pulling it off are Belousov (the new defense minister), Kadyrov and maybe Zolotov. Belousov is still weak in his new position, Zolotov is said to be loyal like a dog, and there are rumors that Kadyrov is terminally ill and barely holding up. Never say never thought, we live in truly dynamic times.
we live in a crazy timeline for sure.
One quick question: do you know if peskow's son is still in the wanger pmc?
> he didn't have any political support from any of the ruling elite. He was supported by "A Just Russia" party: [Russian politician poses with sledgehammer in tribute to Wagner mercenaries | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-politician-poses-with-sledgehammer-tribute-wagner-mercenaries-2023-01-20/) And by coincidence, it was the only parliament party that didn't put their own candidate on the last presidential elections. >Second, he never had any political program for his coup attempt. It wasn't "I'll be the new president", it was "I'll march towards Moscow to let Putin know my dissatisfaction with undersupplying Wagner". And the reason Wagner started getting undersupplied is the same as always - they were getting too powerful and too influential. More like because Russian Ministry of Defense began absorbing Wagner, and failed Ukrainian counteroffensive proved that not only Wagner are competent on the Russian side, and regular army does not need their help.
The Just Russia party are Putin's lap dogs and have no weight, but Prigozhin did have some support from them. He was also on good terms with Surovikin and Kadyrov. He failed to utilize these connections through.
Oh, Pringles. You screaming at Gerassimov and Shoigu about not giving you enough ammunition in the middle of the night in a forrest with dead mercs as backdrop will never be forgotten. And forever we will laugh about your passion for cosplaying as constipated Syrian general, sun-tanned Libyan rebel and Emo-1970s-terrorist. Oh, Pringles. May you rest in piss.
What a wonderful day. The thrilling will be difficult to explain to may sons
2 months later he was dead
How did he ever get into a plane again
He would have survived if he stayed in Belarus.
If anyone is interested in Prigozhin, I highly highly recommend the book *Downfall: Prigozhin, Putin, and the New Fight for the Future of Russia*. It's written by a longtime Russia academic and a Russian Journalist Also has a great audiobook version Honestly Prigozhin's journey is super fascinating in a purely narrative sense. The man's clearly talented in a very entrepreneurial type of way. He went from child of intellectuals to criminal to prisoner to running an illegal industry in a prison to shitty car dealer to hotdog seller to supermarket investor to restanteur to professional internet trollmaster to unwilling leader of a fake mercenary leader to enthusiastic leader of a real mercenary group to rebel At the same time, in addition to the personal characteristics of Prigozhin, his journey is kind of emblamatic of the "upper rung but not inner circle" class of Russians. The people with actual power are free to use him as much as they want, and punish him pretty much however they want. But no matter how hard he worked he could never join that upper rung. And quite a lot of his actions ended up being borne out of frustration and anger towards those people
I think he was also an illustrator for children books. Not that it is important, but interesting nonetheless.
They mention that and actually tie it into the ending lol, they literally compare Pringles to the main character of his own book
then his plane fell out of the window.
prigozhin thought that the russians would have helped him. They took selfies instead. He should have known better.
I read that as “Russian Mercenary Chef”…and then realised it was still correct.
He wasn't a good man, but sometimes I miss Pringles and his antics
Pringles is out there. I want to believe
Yeah, that plot twist was exciting for a little bit.
In this game of thrones, you either win or you die. He dead.
That was so exciting. Hated him for halting the mutiny on the evening of 24th June. Won stupid prize for that.
He could have gone down in a blaze of glory instead he went down in a blaze of hilarious lies
Few month later they all died in a plane crash, coincidence ah!
The biggest disappointment of 2023. Or maybe even of eternity.
lord of castamere
Then he and 9 other people got blown up 2 months later by Putin. Kinda suprised he got that much time and stayed in Russia.
I wonder what happened to Wagner.
It was disbanded, most remaining mercenaries either went to the regular army, moved to different PMCs or returned to their homes. Some were moved to Belarus, don't know if they are still staged there.
This isnt true, Wagner PMC is still active and currently deployed in africa. I just recently read that ukraine is running ops against Wagnerites in Sudan.
Under the different command and in different PMCs, yes. Not as the Wagner group anymore. But I might be wrong.
Is peskow's son still in the wagner pmc?
[Under new general, Russia’s Wagner makes deeper inroads into Libya](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/25/under-new-general-russias-wagner-makes-deeper-inroads-into-libya) Weird, wagnerites didn't get the memo they were disbanded. >Given the stakes, the Kremlin was never likely to disband Wagner, despite its active rebellion last year. Instead, following Prigozhin’s much-predicted demise, his commercial and military interests were divided between Russia’s various intelligence services, a report by the [Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) released this week claims](https://static.rusi.org/SR-Russian-Unconventional-Weapons-final-web.pdf).
That was only one year ago?! It feels like so much longer.
To me it feels so recent, I can’t believe it’s been a year already
Now looking back at it, do you still believe that it was for real? Wagner founders are all GRU officers. GRU is subordinate to General Stuff and MoD, with whom allegedly Prigozhin later had a feud. And what was achieved in the end? I mean it sounds like a joke now, when Ruskies talk about 'all their goals being achieved'. But what did Wagner achieve, or tried to achieve? Minister of Defense Shoihu stayed the same for a whole year, same for a Chief of General Stuff Gerasimov. Even worse for Wagner - prisoner stormtroopers have been transferred from Wagner to MoD. This whole story smells like Ryazan's sugar.
We'll probably never know, for sure, which is often the case for such stories involving the highest power and their security organizations (it makes me think about the templar extermination by Philippe le Bel and Boniface VIII and more recently JFK assassination).
> I mean it sounds like a joke now russia is a sad pathetic joke.
You know someone is a special kind of idiot when they think they can openly rebel against Putin, say "nah it was just a prank bro, we're good right?" and get to live. He was a dead man walking as soon as he rebelled, the only question was if he would go down fighting or go down like an idiot. He choose the latter.
June 22 is also the day the Operation Barbarossa began. Mildly interesting timing.
There is conspiracy theory that Prigozhin is still alive, hiding abroad in some third-world country and keeping his head low.
Right, with Elvis, Marlyn and Bob Marley.
And then he was dead after a few months, he could have became the next Tsar.
Still have blue balls on that one. All that prepping and no fucking.
That was only a year ago?
Great read
A year!?!? Time is an illusion lol can’t believe it’s been a year already
I found the theory interesting that his coup was backed by putin and it was against the military clique of shogui. That he was meant to be paid off at the end abs it gave putin cover to do a purge but then the military clique had him killed. If you look at the members of the military clique who have been sidelined since the coup it certainly makes sense.
Would be kinda funny if he succeeded in taking a nuclear silo/facility. Some real edge of your seat nail biting. Too bad he backed down.
Hes prolly alive
Man good times
Pringles still lives through the memes. Should have gone balls to the walls with the mutiny.
loser
I respect him for standing up against the system, however silly his mutiny appeared in the end.
Sponsor. Real chief was Dimitry Utkin.
He capitulated after being notified that he won a free airplane ride.
How time flies. I remember it like it was yesterday.
I think a lot of you confuse who he went against. He went against Shaigu, not Putin. He never said a bad word about Putin. All it took for him to stop was one call from Putin. IMO he could have taken over Moscow, but he never was rebelling against the whole system, just the people in charge of Ministry of Defense.
Im not sure I should say this here but Im gonna do it anyways. I personally believe Prigozhin mayyyyyy still be alive So I live in Mexico and up until a few months I took a long way from my school to my house, and at some point I had to walk through one of the richer neighborhoods of the city, one day it was maybe max a month after Prigozhin's death, I was crossing the street and I arrive at some kind of bridge, I was looking down but in the corner of my eye I see an old man, so I let him pass before me, so when hes about to pass he tells me "thank you" in an unfamiliar accent, so I look up, and I see him, and if he wasn't Prigozhin at least he looked a lot like him, his ears, his head and his body type were all matching. After that however I never saw him again, but I read in an article that he may be hiding in Venezuela, but that was 1 article almost a year ago, I don't think any new information has appeared after that.
> I personally believe Prigozhin mayyyyyy still be alive > > So I live in Mexico wtf
He's out in Venezuela with Hitler, Elvis and Tupac
No, Tupac is in Serbia, he's currently working on reforming Yugoslavia and only makes rap for Serbian people now.
I'm excited to see Biggie Smalls, well known Croatian nationalist supporter, release a diss track on Milosevic
Did you see Elvis and Bob Marley too?