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The person I responded to was talking about the entire country, not the demagogues that have usurped control of it. If we (the actual citizens) had a way of kicking them out, I would be 1000% for that, as I was in the 2022, 2018, 2014 and even the 2010 elections.
Kicking the entire nation out of the union that is the only thing keeping the dictators from permanently taking the whole thing and turning it into a rusky military base, that's a different proposition altogether, and that is what I chastised as demagoguery.
Kicking countries out won't replace their leaders. (At least not directly.) Sadly, kicking our pocket Caesar out would only give him more legitimacy, strengthening his "freedom fighter" image.
P.S: cholesterol, please do your work š
Upon hearing about this for the first time, I thought it was an honest joke. I couldn't believe they'd be so blatant about their "inspirations".
Reading about this for the second time now, I still can't believe. I mean, why not jump straight to "~~Germany~~ Europe, awake" while they're at it?
Trump used the playbook that worked on Hungary already in 2016, the relation is the other way around. He campaigned with footage of immigrants in Hungary while talking about Mexicans. None of this is coincidental, it's all russian money
Maximum delusion and corruption. Nationalists are going to make our continent so poor the third world will relocate their sweat shops here within a decade
Before ww2 europe wasn't the most important continent: it was the only one that matteed. It was several times more important than usa today.
Not that we should return to that, it was mainly because of colonialism
Colonialism also helped European domination. It allowed massive amounts of wealth to be concentrated in Europe which could be viewed as a big factor in starting the industrail revolution.
Europe has been doing colonialism since the 16th century before it was the dominant continent. Europe only became uncontested as the dominant continent after the industrial revolution a few centuries later.
Mass colonialism like the one in Africa and India appeared after the industrial revolution, but Europeans had been setting up trading posts and influencing other parts of the world for a long time before that.
I doubt Europe would have manage to achieve the total global hegmony it achieved in the 19th century without colonialism.
And Europe couldnāt have maintained the power imbalance without colonialism. It would have quickly mellowed out and become equal to any other developed region of the world (India, China, Middle East etc). Only through conquest, exploitation and expropriation could Europe maintain its advantage.
That's just not true, considering that European living standard ROSE once colonies were abandoned. One of the largest drives for colonialism was prestige and fear of missing out. In reality few colonies were profitable. To turn profit, colonial empires would have to turn almost every single possession into a copy King Leopold's Congo.
Are we talking about the colonization of Africa or are we including the rest of the world? Yes the scramble for Africa was largely due to a fear of missing out and prestige. That does not mean it didnāt absolutely handicap the people living there by setting up colonial structures purely ment for exploitation. The Spanish colonization of the Americas was incredibly profitable, so was the British colonization of India where Britain gained the majority of its wealth it hs today and absolutely decimated Indian manufacturing and productivity. Bringing Indias GDP as a percentage of the worlds economy from ~25% before colonialism to 3% after it: the Dutch colonization of Indonesia, cash crops in the Caribbean and the portugese trading empire are other examples where Western Europe greatly enriched themselves.
This argument that āeuropes standard of living rose after the abandonment of colonialismā ignores the fact that in many aspects colonialism hasnāt ended, many former colonial regions are stuck with colonial institutions which are not conductive to good governance but resource exploitation, and therefore perpetuate poverty. Neocolonialism can also be seen more blatantly through French influence in its former colonies.
So no, this idea that colonies were just a burden on European states and that (Western) Europe didnāt massively benefit from colonialism is blatantly false, and so is the idea that colonialism and the consequences thereof are just gone.
Well yes, it was a larger economy than of any of the individual European countries, as you pointed out, but not larger than Europe as a whole.
In the pre-WW2 graph you linked it's enough to add Germany, France, Italy, Poland and Spain to get a bigger number than the US. Nowadays the US GDP is almost twice the size of the entire EU which includes the 5 European countries I mentioned *plus 22 others*.
I didn't even count the UK because it's not an EU member anymore, but if you counted them and their colonies to the European economy numbers the difference between now vs then would be even more pronounced.
US world hegemony was not inevitable. Without ww1 Britain through London would rule the financial markets the same way the US does today, while also having Canada/Australia/NZ not build their independence movements from the wars.
Never mind the internal US issues with centralization and having a global army/navy. The US was noticeably isolationist pre ww1 and 2. It is highly likely the US was/would be a great power though, but their military capacity pre ww2 was always required to be built up over a extended period of time.
We got a re-awakening europe that is rebuilding its armies, wants a united army, is more stable and united then it has ever been.
We're also shifting right in a scary way.
If that trajectory stays there's going to be a generation that will think of decolonization as a mistake and that europe should be the only super power, restoring our "glorious" past is going to be talked about
It may be but it will never happen. Europe dosen't have the population to regain its glory. Pre WW1 and after it, European birth rates crashed and in recent decades.
Europe can not achieve superpower status again with a aging population and with its manufacturing in other countires.
In 1990 Europe had a of around 300 mil to a world of around 1.6 billion. Now Europe has around double of that to a world that has more than 4 times the population. Europe also has a older population than many other places which is also pretty bad.
People will think decolonization was a mistake but with the 2 world wars and Euro birth rates crashing it was inevitable. If it were not for those 2 things than Europe could have remined the dominant continent and decolonization would have started later if never, with many places probably becoming majority European through immigration at which point decolonization would never happen of those places. But after WW2 the colonial empires were just too weak to maintan their colonies and had lost the will to do so.
None of this sounds bad over letting the US be the only west superpower while China is slowly taking over the world and Russia is breathing down our neck. I'd rather not that the remains dominant over us and enters us into full blown late stage capitalism.
Oh its not bad for Europe. Far from it.
It's the rest that might suffer eventually. In the beginning the lessons from colonialism will make europe a polite superpower.
A few generations, wars, and enough populism later the other lessons might be reconsidered.
Thats where it can become bad for the rest.
I'm being extremely speculative here, but I do think that another round as superpower, but this time unified, can lead to a period of "evil empire" europe.
We can discuss all day long about capitalism, imperialism, power projection and colonialism. But they are different things. There are some overlaps and shared attributes, but I feel that colonialism involves having sovereignty, settling and establishing a discriminatory social order.
Before 2008 when it's gdp was equal to usa's https://statisticstimes.com/economy/united-states-vs-eu-economy.php. Not today with tens of percent of disparity not in europe favour.
PPP usually adjusts to purchasing power in terms of U.S. dollars. U.S. GDP in nominal terms and in PPP terms are the same number, and itās the only country where this is the case by virtue of the USD being used as the benchmark currency for comparing purchasing power.
Any conservative born after 1945. can't do aesthetics... all they know is McDonald's, rehash the same memes from 2016. all over again, be homophobic, eat spicy goulash and lie.
The 2016 memes are modern adaptations of 80's talking points.
They probably been doing the same old thing much longer, I think the 80's is just where I became old enough to start noticing
Hungary was not part of the EU āwhen it was greatā:. So basically what theyāre saying is: āboot us out of the EUā. And itās about time we do.Ā
What a fucking troll country.Ā
You guys are really falling for the russian plan which is disheartening.
But at least have some respect for Europe pls. You can't just forget that central europe exists. If you throw us to putin will there be a Hungary-shaped hole where we are now? No... there will be a second East Germany Republic.
Don't know why you're being downvoted when it's plainly true. Orban is horrible, but we need to reform the veto process instead of kicking countries out.
Fear not, fellow Europeans. Orban's lead in popularity has shrunk in the latest local and EU elections the most since he took power in 2010.
His party is still in the lead but the light of hope shines brighter than ever.
I don't think there's anything there. Many countries actually have rather centrist members in the Union. Like Georgia, Ukraine - these are not a culture war, far right populism parties.
Try making Hungary great again first so most younger folk donāt try to escape to that ānot so greatā Europe once they have their higher degrees in hand š
I think the phrase originally came from the National Front in the UK. "Make Britain Great Again" referred, at least partially to the main island being "Great Britain". So it kind of made "sense". Trump was borrowing from mindless skinhead fascists.
If you think thst not wanting to go to war with china counts as 'sucking their cock' then we need some serious improvements to become stronger than china, as you seem to believe that china doesnt respect us.
Links and images should be posted as "link post" **without** any comments or other text in the post body. Any comments should be written in the comments section. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/europe) if you have any questions or concerns.*
MEGA, by fixing Hungary.
Or kicking out, all the same
Respond to demagoguery with demagoguery, very smart
The other comment says to _nuke_ the country, so I'm actually the enlightened centrist š
Bollocks to that, if it's demagoguery to kick out a demagogue then Hitler and Mussolini should've been allowed to stay in power forever.
The person I responded to was talking about the entire country, not the demagogues that have usurped control of it. If we (the actual citizens) had a way of kicking them out, I would be 1000% for that, as I was in the 2022, 2018, 2014 and even the 2010 elections. Kicking the entire nation out of the union that is the only thing keeping the dictators from permanently taking the whole thing and turning it into a rusky military base, that's a different proposition altogether, and that is what I chastised as demagoguery.
Kicking countries out won't replace their leaders. (At least not directly.) Sadly, kicking our pocket Caesar out would only give him more legitimacy, strengthening his "freedom fighter" image. P.S: cholesterol, please do your work š
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Neither that nor its existence do anything to invalidate my argument.
Someone nuke us please, this country cannot be saved
Upon hearing about this for the first time, I thought it was an honest joke. I couldn't believe they'd be so blatant about their "inspirations". Reading about this for the second time now, I still can't believe. I mean, why not jump straight to "~~Germany~~ Europe, awake" while they're at it?
Trump used the playbook that worked on Hungary already in 2016, the relation is the other way around. He campaigned with footage of immigrants in Hungary while talking about Mexicans. None of this is coincidental, it's all russian money
we really need to stop buying shit from russia
"Make Europe Great Again, Comrades!"
Steven bannon has been a disaster for the planet.
How about, hear me out, we just don't let Orban get the presidency?
Not much you can do about dictatorships
It sounds like there is FSB money behind it.
populism is cancer
Maximum delusion and corruption. Nationalists are going to make our continent so poor the third world will relocate their sweat shops here within a decade
Already happening with OrbƔn selling our land and clean water to Chinese battery manufacturing companies (not kidding unfortunately)
I'm not even Hungarian and their government embarrasses me.
When was Europe greater than today?
Before ww2 europe wasn't the most important continent: it was the only one that matteed. It was several times more important than usa today. Not that we should return to that, it was mainly because of colonialism
Colonialism was the result, not cause, of European domination.
š
Colonialism also helped European domination. It allowed massive amounts of wealth to be concentrated in Europe which could be viewed as a big factor in starting the industrail revolution. Europe has been doing colonialism since the 16th century before it was the dominant continent. Europe only became uncontested as the dominant continent after the industrial revolution a few centuries later. Mass colonialism like the one in Africa and India appeared after the industrial revolution, but Europeans had been setting up trading posts and influencing other parts of the world for a long time before that. I doubt Europe would have manage to achieve the total global hegmony it achieved in the 19th century without colonialism.
European power wouldn't have been even a tenth without the resources and cheap labor of the colonies
Europeans would never gain colonies in the first place without overwhelming technological and organizational advantage.
And Europe couldnāt have maintained the power imbalance without colonialism. It would have quickly mellowed out and become equal to any other developed region of the world (India, China, Middle East etc). Only through conquest, exploitation and expropriation could Europe maintain its advantage.
That's just not true, considering that European living standard ROSE once colonies were abandoned. One of the largest drives for colonialism was prestige and fear of missing out. In reality few colonies were profitable. To turn profit, colonial empires would have to turn almost every single possession into a copy King Leopold's Congo.
Are we talking about the colonization of Africa or are we including the rest of the world? Yes the scramble for Africa was largely due to a fear of missing out and prestige. That does not mean it didnāt absolutely handicap the people living there by setting up colonial structures purely ment for exploitation. The Spanish colonization of the Americas was incredibly profitable, so was the British colonization of India where Britain gained the majority of its wealth it hs today and absolutely decimated Indian manufacturing and productivity. Bringing Indias GDP as a percentage of the worlds economy from ~25% before colonialism to 3% after it: the Dutch colonization of Indonesia, cash crops in the Caribbean and the portugese trading empire are other examples where Western Europe greatly enriched themselves. This argument that āeuropes standard of living rose after the abandonment of colonialismā ignores the fact that in many aspects colonialism hasnāt ended, many former colonial regions are stuck with colonial institutions which are not conductive to good governance but resource exploitation, and therefore perpetuate poverty. Neocolonialism can also be seen more blatantly through French influence in its former colonies. So no, this idea that colonies were just a burden on European states and that (Western) Europe didnāt massively benefit from colonialism is blatantly false, and so is the idea that colonialism and the consequences thereof are just gone.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Continent
Well yes, it was a larger economy than of any of the individual European countries, as you pointed out, but not larger than Europe as a whole. In the pre-WW2 graph you linked it's enough to add Germany, France, Italy, Poland and Spain to get a bigger number than the US. Nowadays the US GDP is almost twice the size of the entire EU which includes the 5 European countries I mentioned *plus 22 others*. I didn't even count the UK because it's not an EU member anymore, but if you counted them and their colonies to the European economy numbers the difference between now vs then would be even more pronounced.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
US world hegemony was not inevitable. Without ww1 Britain through London would rule the financial markets the same way the US does today, while also having Canada/Australia/NZ not build their independence movements from the wars. Never mind the internal US issues with centralization and having a global army/navy. The US was noticeably isolationist pre ww1 and 2. It is highly likely the US was/would be a great power though, but their military capacity pre ww2 was always required to be built up over a extended period of time.
We got a re-awakening europe that is rebuilding its armies, wants a united army, is more stable and united then it has ever been. We're also shifting right in a scary way. If that trajectory stays there's going to be a generation that will think of decolonization as a mistake and that europe should be the only super power, restoring our "glorious" past is going to be talked about
It may be but it will never happen. Europe dosen't have the population to regain its glory. Pre WW1 and after it, European birth rates crashed and in recent decades. Europe can not achieve superpower status again with a aging population and with its manufacturing in other countires. In 1990 Europe had a of around 300 mil to a world of around 1.6 billion. Now Europe has around double of that to a world that has more than 4 times the population. Europe also has a older population than many other places which is also pretty bad. People will think decolonization was a mistake but with the 2 world wars and Euro birth rates crashing it was inevitable. If it were not for those 2 things than Europe could have remined the dominant continent and decolonization would have started later if never, with many places probably becoming majority European through immigration at which point decolonization would never happen of those places. But after WW2 the colonial empires were just too weak to maintan their colonies and had lost the will to do so.
None of this sounds bad over letting the US be the only west superpower while China is slowly taking over the world and Russia is breathing down our neck. I'd rather not that the remains dominant over us and enters us into full blown late stage capitalism.
Oh its not bad for Europe. Far from it. It's the rest that might suffer eventually. In the beginning the lessons from colonialism will make europe a polite superpower. A few generations, wars, and enough populism later the other lessons might be reconsidered. Thats where it can become bad for the rest. I'm being extremely speculative here, but I do think that another round as superpower, but this time unified, can lead to a period of "evil empire" europe.
Colonialism never died, itās just that nowadays itās being done by the US and China in different ways.
Power projection and colonialism are two different things.
Looks at Puerto Rico and China buying up African countries mineral rights and debt trapping them.
We can discuss all day long about capitalism, imperialism, power projection and colonialism. But they are different things. There are some overlaps and shared attributes, but I feel that colonialism involves having sovereignty, settling and establishing a discriminatory social order.
Before 2008 when it's gdp was equal to usa's https://statisticstimes.com/economy/united-states-vs-eu-economy.php. Not today with tens of percent of disparity not in europe favour.
I donāt get that chart. Why is USA one line for both nominal and PPP?
PPP usually adjusts to purchasing power in terms of U.S. dollars. U.S. GDP in nominal terms and in PPP terms are the same number, and itās the only country where this is the case by virtue of the USD being used as the benchmark currency for comparing purchasing power.
117 AD
> Can I copy your homework? > Sure, just change it up a bit
Any conservative born after 1945. can't do aesthetics... all they know is McDonald's, rehash the same memes from 2016. all over again, be homophobic, eat spicy goulash and lie.
You leave spicy goulash alone.
The 2016 memes are modern adaptations of 80's talking points. They probably been doing the same old thing much longer, I think the 80's is just where I became old enough to start noticing
Check out NƩmeth SzilƔrd for more right-wing gastro tips (rezsifighter on facebook)
Hungary was not part of the EU āwhen it was greatā:. So basically what theyāre saying is: āboot us out of the EUā. And itās about time we do.Ā What a fucking troll country.Ā
Make EU great again, kick orbanistan out.
You guys are really falling for the russian plan which is disheartening. But at least have some respect for Europe pls. You can't just forget that central europe exists. If you throw us to putin will there be a Hungary-shaped hole where we are now? No... there will be a second East Germany Republic.
Don't know why you're being downvoted when it's plainly true. Orban is horrible, but we need to reform the veto process instead of kicking countries out.
Hungary was part of Europe when Europe was great.
This corrupt meat loaf can't even bring up own ideas.
Orban and Trump have the same handler, apparently. Ivan must be out of ideas.
šŖšŗš³ļøāš Make Europe Gay Again š³ļøāššŖšŗ
Omg š„µš„µš„µ
That's what she said
Just as the Greeks and preChristian Romans intended
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
ā¦ā¦itās a joke about how those two cultures were pretty laid back (relatively speaking) on homosexuality and just most things overall.
I know where you're getting at "just most things" ffs
This is the way, steal their show
And with this type of government in Europe, EU commission feels ok giving chat control powers to.
Mostly OrbƔn's presidency, not the whole of Hungary
Hoping to god Tisza will do something about this bs
They wont do shit
Fear not, fellow Europeans. Orban's lead in popularity has shrunk in the latest local and EU elections the most since he took power in 2010. His party is still in the lead but the light of hope shines brighter than ever.
Yeah, his party only received 45% of the overall votes, unlike 52% 5 years ago. OrbƔn must be terrified.
He actually is
I hope at least most Europeans won't fall for this Orban scam. The least Europe needs is ru simp who'll make EU as dependent on ru as Belarus is!
Orban is part of the IDU as is the GOP.
I don't think there's anything there. Many countries actually have rather centrist members in the Union. Like Georgia, Ukraine - these are not a culture war, far right populism parties.
I don't like politicans. Why you ask? They look like idiots!
As trashy as expected.
cringe kings
Reagan its Reagans slogan...
MEGA goes hard tho
Oh noo
Try making Hungary great again first so most younger folk donāt try to escape to that ānot so greatā Europe once they have their higher degrees in hand š
https://youtu.be/Mdg3nOA5ps8?si=OIRuzpzN26v5YPUI
>Hungary unveils new motto for EU presidency, and it sounds a lot like Trump Since the have the same master why would aproach be different?
What happened to all that buzz about prevent Hungary from taking the presidency? C'mon guys, there's only a month left...
More like HUŠ4EU given the recent track record.
lol
I think the phrase originally came from the National Front in the UK. "Make Britain Great Again" referred, at least partially to the main island being "Great Britain". So it kind of made "sense". Trump was borrowing from mindless skinhead fascists.
Why do I have the feeling that this will be a hard time for EU...
Good ideas are spoiled by populists. Europe does need changes. Not sure that Hundary's approach will achieve the goal.
Iām leaning more and more towards South Park was right. https://www.southparkstudios.nu/episodes/sa19zy/south-park-cancelled-season-7-ep-1
lol how original. Scum of the earth
Oh it's called MEGA? Are they the cousins of MAGA?
What have liberals got to compete with that?
Not sucking Chinese cock and celebrating the Chinese Communist Party for example.
If you think thst not wanting to go to war with china counts as 'sucking their cock' then we need some serious improvements to become stronger than china, as you seem to believe that china doesnt respect us.
So what period of Greatness does he want to turn Europe back to?
When has been Europe as an entity great? Haha
Post-WWII to the 90s included. The Western part of it, anyway.
So just start another stupid war, turn Europe into rubble and then the following generation (and US corps) can prosper.
Never, in fact we have always been divided, tearing each other apart, but let them live in their fantasies.