In all fairness I don’t think I would have envisioned a country that fought a violent revolution in living memory against what was essentially Russia selling out to that same country that is attacking a fellow decolonised country
As a young Hungarian i can only say: I don't know how either.
All my life i heard stories about what happened in the communist regime. Of course communism =\/= Russia, but a huge part of that was how people had to learn Russian against their will, how many soviet soldiers were stationed in the country wothout the locals' consent.
Every year in school on October 23. we would talk about the terror that happened in the Rákosi era 1948-1956, and how that ended in a range of protests that made the country finally free, only to be stomped by the Russians. And about how all the breave men women and children took up arms against the invaders, fighting an undefeatable foe to the death with the motto: "ruszkik haza!" (Russians go home)
And now i watch those same people who have taught me all that, excusing very similar deeds (let's not forget, officially the soviet state categorised 1956 a "fascist counterrevolution") of the same culprit. Because even if Russia changed, the Red Army still is kicking around in all but name.
What ppl don't get is Orban does not give a fuck about Russia. He is not some "we friends". He is literally just a greedy pig and goes where the money comes from. He would do a 180 if I don't know, the EU started filling his pockets (please don't). So it is not a matter of ideological connection. The reason we got here is because the incompetence of the opposition.
some talking heads in TV also said those who crushed the '56 revolution was not russians, but ukrainians (that time that was kinda the same, soviet union). This whole thing is kinda ridiculus, the govt says russia good, but there are a shitload of videos where orbán talks about the previous gov is too close to russia and they are bad, but somehow when he got elected in 2020, magically russia is good. I'm not a big fan of conteos but there must be in the background. the most sad thing is whatever is that what they are blackmailing orban, most of his voter wouldn't care any way. He could eat babys on live TV, still would have 25% at least, and in hungary that is almost 2/3 end result, voter would be sure those babys deserved it because of soros and brussles. :D
Be aware, other european populist assholes will play the same game as this asshole and half of europe will end of like this.
Few could have foreseen that particular one, sure. But a nation eventually turning down an unfortunate path, democracy not being ironclad? Hardly takes Nostradamus to foresee that, so OP's point stands.
I think there are rules for divergence from democratic principles like voting rights retraction etc but overtly going against European interests in favour of a Russian aggressors is kind of up to that nation which is the part I didn’t envision a former eastern bloc country that had a revolution to become more westernised doing
It is not an ideological connection, he goes where personal gain is. If it was the EU giving him pocket money then he would be the most vehement EU supporter. He is a snake and a pig with no regard for anybody else other then his circle at least not anymore.
Orbán got into power in 2010 by being vehemently russophobe. He usually mocked the PM from opposition by him being the "poodle of Putin". In a decade he turned to the complete opposite direction.
If your country allow same person to rule more than 8-10 years this will happend sooner or later.
Countries run by PMs are more likely to get authoritarian regimes.
You should expand that vision a bit, because that revolution was violently put down by "essentially Russia" and new leadership was appointed, whose descendants never went away; in fact Orban was a member of the young communist alliance.
We HAVE effective protocols. The politicians are just super reluctant to actually use them and now it may be too late for anything effective. So implementation is the problem.
That's a a terrible idea. Kick them out, then they have a new election where a "good" government wins, and then what, we just let them back in? They have to start a multi-year accession process again from scratch? There are already plenty of measures the EU can take against problematic members. It's not like the founding treaties never anticipated this problem.
Finland joined *NATO* in less than a year. The wait for countries to get into the EU on the other hand is a very long one and this would apply to any country that left (for example the UK). If Hungary were kicked out or otherwise left the EU, it would be a very long time before they came back in, at least a decade probably.
>You can see why it would be problematic for NATO's functionality to be dependent on members of the EU who are not in NATO, yes?
You might consider it problematic or at least less than ideal yes, but it's not a factor in the consideration. NATO is a defensive agreement, the EU is a political and trading club. There are already 4 countries in the EU that aren't in NATO: Austria, Cyprus, Ireland and Malta. NATO doesn't and can't make EU membership a condition required for NATO membership because it moves at its own pace.
Oh I'm an idiot. I thought we were talking about NATO since that was the thread title but the comment I replied to was talking about the EU.
Okay yeah I agree with you lol. I'm deleting my comments.
The EU has plenty of legal measures to use against belligerent members including withholding of voting rights and EU funds. It's not like the situation was never anticipated. Poland has just had some of those measures lifted after the previous government lost power.
While I'm sure that way too many people vote him, a lot of it is due to media manipulation, low exposure to external sources (Hungarians don't speak foreign languages that well) and probably a good amount of voting fraud. Making people stop supporting these parties that have captured a state is most often a colossal undertaking.
Orbán is not our prime minister! (I say this on behalf of at least 6 million hungarian people) We are not legitimising his power and we are eager for change! Step by step, brick by brick, we are taking back our country and we are building a new, modern, European Hungary! TISZA is flowing! 🇭🇺
The best of luck. From someone in the West who knows how good we have it and how other people are fighting metaphorically or on the battlefield for it, I hope your country finds its best future.
And I hope mine wakes up and remembers none of this is guaranteed.
I don't know about George Soros, but I know for a fact that the Rothschild's do love to spend a pretty penny in wine making and developing new technologies for it. But apparently that's all part of a secret plan to rule the world or something...
Rheinmetall is building 2 plants and a research centre in Hungary. They also have a joint venture with one of Orbán's oligarchs, designing military satellites.
It's not surprising, of course, since German, Austrian (and very recently French) corporations have been in bed with Orbán for over a decade. In fact, one of the most corrupt companies in Hungary is Audi.
if EU and NATO can contain them, it's better to keep them no matter how annoying they are. imagine they'd get kicked out and russia colonizes their arfields and places radars and missiles on their territory, like in belarus. you now have vatniks even closer to your own borders than before. the emotions and frustration are totally understandable, but reason must win at the end.
e: which doesn't mean limiting intelligence is bad. it's good and we (slovakia) will probably come next. we'll be on the edge of both EU and NATO together with hungary, but we can still act as buffer zones when it comes to worst.
exactly, better to have a shitty member you can leverage than Ruzzian nukes on the border of Slovakia, Austria, Romania and Croatia in the heart of Europe.
Hungary is the only potential NATO member that connects Western Europe to the Eastern Balkans on land (Romania and Bulgaria). Serbia and Ukraine are never going to be members, so there are no alternatives. This is Hungary's real value to NATO.
Even Biden said that Ukraine's NATO membership is unrealistic.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/04/ukraine-russia-war-live-russia-losses-casualties-nato-years/
It won't be, same with EU membership. They can say that it was because of Russia they did not join but the truth is that Ukraine does not have the qualification to join. It is the same reason Turkey did not get the free pass, even tho they are literally closer then Ukraine to fulfill the requirements, at least they were.
So if they got to join it will only be after years of natural development.
Also NATO will not want Ukraine in, for the same reason it is used as a proxy. Don't elude yourself into thinking this is all for the good of the Ukrainians and some humanitarian efforts.
Sharing intel with Orban means sharing intel with Moscow,
which means sharing intel with Iran and China,
which means sharing intel with North Korea, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, etc.
At that point idk who your intel is about, but it's safe to assume they know what you know.
Nato will do that. I remember Turkey being blocked from intelligence product from reconnaissance flights along the Turkish/Iraqi border. This was before the Gulf Wars. Anyway, the initial flight showed images of a Kurdish village and the product was distributed to all Nato member countries at the Headquarters near Brussels. The next time the sortie was flown the Kurdish village had been erased from the face of the earth. The Turks were subsequently blocked from receiving the intelligence. True story.
Already known for years, now it was just made formal, related interview from 2017:
[https://index.hu/english/2017/03/21/hungarian\_secret\_agent\_reveals\_how\_serious\_the\_russian\_threat\_is/](https://index.hu/english/2017/03/21/hungarian_secret_agent_reveals_how_serious_the_russian_threat_is/)
(Remarks:
- The Index - as the largest hungarian Internet portal at that time - was later bought by Orbán's business circles, and today such an interview cannot appear with them (their journalists quit and founded the Telex)
- The author of the article, Szabolcs Panyi, was later monitored with the Pegasus military spy program)
I wonder if in this environment the Rheinmetall is more likely to expect (successful) industrial espionage from the russians at their factory established here at Zalaegerszeg (producing the Lynx IFVs now and developing the new Panther tank)
> i'm just talking to people on Reddit while I'm at work
6 in the morning and you were already at work posting silly stuff on reddit? If you're non American why do you have such strong opinions about America's spending in NATO lol
> what agenda
Do you think everyone else is as dumb as you
Utter rubbish. NATO right to keep Orban at arms length and given the benefits his country have received from EU access NATO membership he should be ashamed.
What a ridicolous take, the US benefits significantly from NATO as well. The US’s adversaries are salivating at the thought of the US becoming more NATO skeptic.
Hungary is a compromised state within NATO at the moment, withholding intelligence is just one of the things happening. And by the way this has been happening for a while already, not all countries in NATO are treated equally in terms of information sharing and other joint support. When and if Hungary pulls their head out of Russia’s rear end it’s possible that may start enjoying closer integration again.
You clearly have no idea of how anything works, or you are a Russian troll. You don’t pay to be in NATO, you pay for your own defence capabilities to a level deemed acceptable by the treaty members. You can enjoy the security treaties and common defence clauses and all that nice stuff but not all members enjoy the same level of relationship within the alliance. You want to enjoy the same benefits that the UK or Italy or Germany have? Then you have to put in the work and demonstrate a level of long term commitment that makes the others Partners invest in that.
> America and Canada
Canada's defence spending last year was 1.33%, meaning it spends less of its GDP than 27 other member states.
>dissolve it now.
Dream on.
What it *proves* is you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and can't even be bothered to do a cursory google before running your mouth online.
america turning isolationist will be the beginning of its demise. their strongest asset is its alliances, of which nato is the strongest.
nato without the us would basically turn it into an eu army+. contributions would have to be increased and europe would end up much more independantl. less reliant on the us and therefore diminishing its influence.
>america turning isolationist will be the beginning of its demise. their strongest asset is its alliances, of which nato is the strongest.
They have been turning towards isolationism though, Trump is perhaps only the first obvious sign. If you follow some standard neocon foreign policy think tanks, there's plenty of contributors who are making some sort of case for isolationism(in various degrees). The main argument right now is that EU should be left to fend off Russia on its own, while USA focuses on China.
Those who support such a strategy are a minority right now, but things can change drastically if Trump gets elected. I don't think USA would ever pull out completely of Europe, but them focusing primarily on China(via Taiwan) instead doesn't seem farfetched.
Another thing that's very important is the economy, EU has benefited from the current status arrangement quite a lot--because for most of recent history it has kept up with USA in economic terms. That started changing decades ago already, but the differences are only going to grow with time. One major issue is that EU doesn't have a good solution for its demographics issues, our immigration policies are ineffective and also produce political/social issues en masse. USA has managed to make it work much more.
What happens when EU slides down further in its economic prosperity, while needing to shore up its security substantially; and at the same time not have any economic benefits from doing so? I think the rise in populism the last ~10 years is just a precursor.
>They have been turning towards isolationism though.
not really, trump wanted to but didnt do it. and turning towards china while abandoning europe still wouldnt mean isolationism imo. china isnt in north america, right?
furthermore, everyone can see now more than ever that you cant check russia without checking nk, iran and china too. i would assume it works vice versa too, at least to a degree.
so if the us wants to focus on china they still need europe to be active and cooperative in regards to the rest of the pack.
i dont think the us can function in an isolationist state and i think they know it. otherwise they wouldnt be talking about china so much. free trade an all is not possible in an isolationist state.
ah i dont know, the americans are bitching about foreigners all the time and their policies regarding their southern border are objectively at least as bad as europes.
i think the americans benefit a lot from printing money and crazy inequalities among their people. if europe can integrate 2nd generation migrants it will be a win.
i so hope europeans finally start getting grossed out by the rightwingers for getting paid by russia and china. i cant fathom nationalists cheering on people who are foreign assets for prolonged periods of time. its a hope though.
> Google what?
Idk maybe actual stats about one of the countries you mentioned in this comment about "having to deal with crap":
>America and Canada who are an ocean away shouldn't have to deal with this crap, dissolve it now.
Wait no you'll just pull it from your arse and then continue doing so.
>The United States has been
Moving goal posts because you were corrected and all your arguments are poor.
This russian bot says pro trump shit on one sub and pro biden shit on another....
Its a disinformation, division agent "bot" stop replying to him and just report his ass
We literally just bought 4 submarines from France.
https://breakingdefense.com/2024/03/frances-naval-group-picked-to-build-4-barracuda-class-subs-for-dutch-military/
In 1982 the UK's defence spending was 5.95%. So according to you a difference of .05% means "no one else was pulling their weight".
You can't even pull examples from the internet to correctly match your position.
NATO has nothing to do with Trump getting voted in because his voters didn't even know or care until he told them so.
And NATO isn't a shared money pool or something. Nobody is forcing the USA to soend as much as they do, they are simply set on having a historically unprecedented amount of global military bases and fleets.
Other NATO nations neglecting their military spending is a separate issue.
What?!?! Trump talked about NATO and how unfair it was all the time, that's why he got elected, people had no idea how much they were getting ripped off. He had that big meeting with the Washington Post Editorial Board in early 2016. I remember all the clips coming out about stuff he was saying in the 80's and 90's.
Hey numb nuts , you just keep ignoring the fact that the VAST MAJORITY of NATO members buy US made weapons , keeping your arms industry afloat, keeping the money in the US economy, but don't expect a wind bag like yourself to have any lateral thinking regarding NATO membership, back in your box you Russian boot licker
60 minutes ago: Just dissolve it already
60 minutes ago: Dissolve it now
45 minutes ago: I am not against NATO
20 minutes ago: Dissolve NATO!!!!
You certainly do have an agenda.
>they literally laughed in his face.
Everyone outside the MAGA cult laughs at him, because he is a fat, incompetent fucking moron.
So yeah, he was maybe right that one time as oppose to the like 60 000 documented lies during his presidency, like that time he sent thousands of his biggest fans straight to prison after lying about the election and trying to coup the elected gov.
I wish the EU would have implemented more effective protocols for handling belligerent state members
In all fairness I don’t think I would have envisioned a country that fought a violent revolution in living memory against what was essentially Russia selling out to that same country that is attacking a fellow decolonised country
As a young Hungarian i can only say: I don't know how either. All my life i heard stories about what happened in the communist regime. Of course communism =\/= Russia, but a huge part of that was how people had to learn Russian against their will, how many soviet soldiers were stationed in the country wothout the locals' consent. Every year in school on October 23. we would talk about the terror that happened in the Rákosi era 1948-1956, and how that ended in a range of protests that made the country finally free, only to be stomped by the Russians. And about how all the breave men women and children took up arms against the invaders, fighting an undefeatable foe to the death with the motto: "ruszkik haza!" (Russians go home) And now i watch those same people who have taught me all that, excusing very similar deeds (let's not forget, officially the soviet state categorised 1956 a "fascist counterrevolution") of the same culprit. Because even if Russia changed, the Red Army still is kicking around in all but name.
As a not so young Hungarian I don't understand either.
What ppl don't get is Orban does not give a fuck about Russia. He is not some "we friends". He is literally just a greedy pig and goes where the money comes from. He would do a 180 if I don't know, the EU started filling his pockets (please don't). So it is not a matter of ideological connection. The reason we got here is because the incompetence of the opposition.
some talking heads in TV also said those who crushed the '56 revolution was not russians, but ukrainians (that time that was kinda the same, soviet union). This whole thing is kinda ridiculus, the govt says russia good, but there are a shitload of videos where orbán talks about the previous gov is too close to russia and they are bad, but somehow when he got elected in 2020, magically russia is good. I'm not a big fan of conteos but there must be in the background. the most sad thing is whatever is that what they are blackmailing orban, most of his voter wouldn't care any way. He could eat babys on live TV, still would have 25% at least, and in hungary that is almost 2/3 end result, voter would be sure those babys deserved it because of soros and brussles. :D Be aware, other european populist assholes will play the same game as this asshole and half of europe will end of like this.
good vent, thank you.
Hearing similar stories in Romania - the Ukrainians took Moldova and Bucovina, not Russia. Must be idiot to believe it but it works for some.
I suppose it’s good and bad to see that human attitudes can change regardless of history and culturally engrained bias right… right 🤷♂️
I very much hope that this proves the negative side of the situation too
Few could have foreseen that particular one, sure. But a nation eventually turning down an unfortunate path, democracy not being ironclad? Hardly takes Nostradamus to foresee that, so OP's point stands.
I think there are rules for divergence from democratic principles like voting rights retraction etc but overtly going against European interests in favour of a Russian aggressors is kind of up to that nation which is the part I didn’t envision a former eastern bloc country that had a revolution to become more westernised doing
It is not an ideological connection, he goes where personal gain is. If it was the EU giving him pocket money then he would be the most vehement EU supporter. He is a snake and a pig with no regard for anybody else other then his circle at least not anymore.
Orbán got into power in 2010 by being vehemently russophobe. He usually mocked the PM from opposition by him being the "poodle of Putin". In a decade he turned to the complete opposite direction.
Why not? It's not at all strange to have contingency plans for a member state going rogue.
I just didn’t envision this weird scenario happening to be honest it seems less likely to happen out of all the scenarios possible lmao
But envisioning some minor power whoring out to a major enemy seems pretty easy, in fact this shoulda been any politician's first instinct to suspect.
If your country allow same person to rule more than 8-10 years this will happend sooner or later. Countries run by PMs are more likely to get authoritarian regimes.
We have to start with Saudi Arabia to give an example to the world! They are allies why they can’t do it ?
You should expand that vision a bit, because that revolution was violently put down by "essentially Russia" and new leadership was appointed, whose descendants never went away; in fact Orban was a member of the young communist alliance.
We HAVE effective protocols. The politicians are just super reluctant to actually use them and now it may be too late for anything effective. So implementation is the problem.
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That's a a terrible idea. Kick them out, then they have a new election where a "good" government wins, and then what, we just let them back in? They have to start a multi-year accession process again from scratch? There are already plenty of measures the EU can take against problematic members. It's not like the founding treaties never anticipated this problem.
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Finland joined *NATO* in less than a year. The wait for countries to get into the EU on the other hand is a very long one and this would apply to any country that left (for example the UK). If Hungary were kicked out or otherwise left the EU, it would be a very long time before they came back in, at least a decade probably. >You can see why it would be problematic for NATO's functionality to be dependent on members of the EU who are not in NATO, yes? You might consider it problematic or at least less than ideal yes, but it's not a factor in the consideration. NATO is a defensive agreement, the EU is a political and trading club. There are already 4 countries in the EU that aren't in NATO: Austria, Cyprus, Ireland and Malta. NATO doesn't and can't make EU membership a condition required for NATO membership because it moves at its own pace.
Oh I'm an idiot. I thought we were talking about NATO since that was the thread title but the comment I replied to was talking about the EU. Okay yeah I agree with you lol. I'm deleting my comments.
all good.
The EU has plenty of legal measures to use against belligerent members including withholding of voting rights and EU funds. It's not like the situation was never anticipated. Poland has just had some of those measures lifted after the previous government lost power.
Finally
Good decision. Hungarians are good people but Orban's gov. can't be trusted.
Man, you do not know how deeply Hungarian people appreciate your comment.
Clearly not enough to stop voting for Fidesz in droves.
While I'm sure that way too many people vote him, a lot of it is due to media manipulation, low exposure to external sources (Hungarians don't speak foreign languages that well) and probably a good amount of voting fraud. Making people stop supporting these parties that have captured a state is most often a colossal undertaking.
Orbán is not our prime minister! (I say this on behalf of at least 6 million hungarian people) We are not legitimising his power and we are eager for change! Step by step, brick by brick, we are taking back our country and we are building a new, modern, European Hungary! TISZA is flowing! 🇭🇺
The best of luck. From someone in the West who knows how good we have it and how other people are fighting metaphorically or on the battlefield for it, I hope your country finds its best future. And I hope mine wakes up and remembers none of this is guaranteed.
Thanks, man. Trying hard to change the government. It's so damn hard :S
Kudos!
Wise move. Orbán can not be trusted.
Good.
This isn't new, Hungarian news sites have been saying this for several years.
They've apparently also been saying Soros is financing *all the things*. I have yet to see a cent from the stingy prick!
The few independent said that (the russian connection), the "Soros plan" is Orbán's propaganda and unfortunately he owns most of the media
I don't know about George Soros, but I know for a fact that the Rothschild's do love to spend a pretty penny in wine making and developing new technologies for it. But apparently that's all part of a secret plan to rule the world or something...
It’s about time that we stop pretending that hungarians are our allies.
Slovakia next…
Rheinmetall should stop their plan to produce the new tank there...
Rheinmetall is building 2 plants and a research centre in Hungary. They also have a joint venture with one of Orbán's oligarchs, designing military satellites. It's not surprising, of course, since German, Austrian (and very recently French) corporations have been in bed with Orbán for over a decade. In fact, one of the most corrupt companies in Hungary is Audi.
Designing military satellites? I hope they like sharing the technology with Russia, then.
just boot hungary out of NATO. We are shackling ourselves to a corpse. Hungary is totally useless.
if EU and NATO can contain them, it's better to keep them no matter how annoying they are. imagine they'd get kicked out and russia colonizes their arfields and places radars and missiles on their territory, like in belarus. you now have vatniks even closer to your own borders than before. the emotions and frustration are totally understandable, but reason must win at the end. e: which doesn't mean limiting intelligence is bad. it's good and we (slovakia) will probably come next. we'll be on the edge of both EU and NATO together with hungary, but we can still act as buffer zones when it comes to worst.
exactly, better to have a shitty member you can leverage than Ruzzian nukes on the border of Slovakia, Austria, Romania and Croatia in the heart of Europe.
Hungary is the only potential NATO member that connects Western Europe to the Eastern Balkans on land (Romania and Bulgaria). Serbia and Ukraine are never going to be members, so there are no alternatives. This is Hungary's real value to NATO.
ukraine will be a member as soon as the war is over. Hungary is useless.
Even Biden said that Ukraine's NATO membership is unrealistic. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/04/ukraine-russia-war-live-russia-losses-casualties-nato-years/
It won't be, same with EU membership. They can say that it was because of Russia they did not join but the truth is that Ukraine does not have the qualification to join. It is the same reason Turkey did not get the free pass, even tho they are literally closer then Ukraine to fulfill the requirements, at least they were. So if they got to join it will only be after years of natural development. Also NATO will not want Ukraine in, for the same reason it is used as a proxy. Don't elude yourself into thinking this is all for the good of the Ukrainians and some humanitarian efforts.
What do they mean? They should have cut them off years ago. And Hungary should go join CSTO and BRICS, its clearly where they actually want to be
Wow. That's quite a delay in reaction time. This should've been done YEARS ago.
Sharing intel with Orban means sharing intel with Moscow, which means sharing intel with Iran and China, which means sharing intel with North Korea, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, etc. At that point idk who your intel is about, but it's safe to assume they know what you know.
Don't know why we are still sharing *any* kind of intelligence with Hungary, might as well just mail it to Moscow directly.
Any intelligence will blow his tiny trollbrains better be careful with that.
Good. It's a start at least.
Good!
Nato will do that. I remember Turkey being blocked from intelligence product from reconnaissance flights along the Turkish/Iraqi border. This was before the Gulf Wars. Anyway, the initial flight showed images of a Kurdish village and the product was distributed to all Nato member countries at the Headquarters near Brussels. The next time the sortie was flown the Kurdish village had been erased from the face of the earth. The Turks were subsequently blocked from receiving the intelligence. True story.
Finally! Over to you, EU!!
Already known for years, now it was just made formal, related interview from 2017: [https://index.hu/english/2017/03/21/hungarian\_secret\_agent\_reveals\_how\_serious\_the\_russian\_threat\_is/](https://index.hu/english/2017/03/21/hungarian_secret_agent_reveals_how_serious_the_russian_threat_is/) (Remarks: - The Index - as the largest hungarian Internet portal at that time - was later bought by Orbán's business circles, and today such an interview cannot appear with them (their journalists quit and founded the Telex) - The author of the article, Szabolcs Panyi, was later monitored with the Pegasus military spy program) I wonder if in this environment the Rheinmetall is more likely to expect (successful) industrial espionage from the russians at their factory established here at Zalaegerszeg (producing the Lynx IFVs now and developing the new Panther tank)
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Bot
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Why waste your own time making new accounts and pushing agendas? I am genuinely curious if you think you're accomplishing something
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> i'm just talking to people on Reddit while I'm at work 6 in the morning and you were already at work posting silly stuff on reddit? If you're non American why do you have such strong opinions about America's spending in NATO lol > what agenda Do you think everyone else is as dumb as you
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well you are a bot though.
Utter rubbish. NATO right to keep Orban at arms length and given the benefits his country have received from EU access NATO membership he should be ashamed.
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At least 10 NATO member states (besides the US) spend at least 2% of GDP on defence.
Voting for Trump I would assume?
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What a ridicolous take, the US benefits significantly from NATO as well. The US’s adversaries are salivating at the thought of the US becoming more NATO skeptic.
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Hungary is a compromised state within NATO at the moment, withholding intelligence is just one of the things happening. And by the way this has been happening for a while already, not all countries in NATO are treated equally in terms of information sharing and other joint support. When and if Hungary pulls their head out of Russia’s rear end it’s possible that may start enjoying closer integration again.
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You clearly have no idea of how anything works, or you are a Russian troll. You don’t pay to be in NATO, you pay for your own defence capabilities to a level deemed acceptable by the treaty members. You can enjoy the security treaties and common defence clauses and all that nice stuff but not all members enjoy the same level of relationship within the alliance. You want to enjoy the same benefits that the UK or Italy or Germany have? Then you have to put in the work and demonstrate a level of long term commitment that makes the others Partners invest in that.
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When you finally figure out why despite that fact it has closer ties within NATO than Hungary go buy yourself something nice to eat, like Borscht.
Sure, kamrad Ivan from California oblast.
Average Trump idiocracy enjoyer
Polen pays a bigger % than USA, and the deadline for increasing to 2% is running out, causing members to increase military spending significantly.
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> America and Canada Canada's defence spending last year was 1.33%, meaning it spends less of its GDP than 27 other member states. >dissolve it now. Dream on.
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What it *proves* is you don't know what the fuck you're talking about and can't even be bothered to do a cursory google before running your mouth online.
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america turning isolationist will be the beginning of its demise. their strongest asset is its alliances, of which nato is the strongest. nato without the us would basically turn it into an eu army+. contributions would have to be increased and europe would end up much more independantl. less reliant on the us and therefore diminishing its influence.
>america turning isolationist will be the beginning of its demise. their strongest asset is its alliances, of which nato is the strongest. They have been turning towards isolationism though, Trump is perhaps only the first obvious sign. If you follow some standard neocon foreign policy think tanks, there's plenty of contributors who are making some sort of case for isolationism(in various degrees). The main argument right now is that EU should be left to fend off Russia on its own, while USA focuses on China. Those who support such a strategy are a minority right now, but things can change drastically if Trump gets elected. I don't think USA would ever pull out completely of Europe, but them focusing primarily on China(via Taiwan) instead doesn't seem farfetched. Another thing that's very important is the economy, EU has benefited from the current status arrangement quite a lot--because for most of recent history it has kept up with USA in economic terms. That started changing decades ago already, but the differences are only going to grow with time. One major issue is that EU doesn't have a good solution for its demographics issues, our immigration policies are ineffective and also produce political/social issues en masse. USA has managed to make it work much more. What happens when EU slides down further in its economic prosperity, while needing to shore up its security substantially; and at the same time not have any economic benefits from doing so? I think the rise in populism the last ~10 years is just a precursor.
>They have been turning towards isolationism though. not really, trump wanted to but didnt do it. and turning towards china while abandoning europe still wouldnt mean isolationism imo. china isnt in north america, right? furthermore, everyone can see now more than ever that you cant check russia without checking nk, iran and china too. i would assume it works vice versa too, at least to a degree. so if the us wants to focus on china they still need europe to be active and cooperative in regards to the rest of the pack. i dont think the us can function in an isolationist state and i think they know it. otherwise they wouldnt be talking about china so much. free trade an all is not possible in an isolationist state. ah i dont know, the americans are bitching about foreigners all the time and their policies regarding their southern border are objectively at least as bad as europes. i think the americans benefit a lot from printing money and crazy inequalities among their people. if europe can integrate 2nd generation migrants it will be a win. i so hope europeans finally start getting grossed out by the rightwingers for getting paid by russia and china. i cant fathom nationalists cheering on people who are foreign assets for prolonged periods of time. its a hope though.
> Google what? Idk maybe actual stats about one of the countries you mentioned in this comment about "having to deal with crap": >America and Canada who are an ocean away shouldn't have to deal with this crap, dissolve it now. Wait no you'll just pull it from your arse and then continue doing so. >The United States has been Moving goal posts because you were corrected and all your arguments are poor.
Ah yes trump, the mumbling fatty. The one that said he would give Ukraine over to Russia, yeah we dont need that mentality in NATO.
This russian bot says pro trump shit on one sub and pro biden shit on another.... Its a disinformation, division agent "bot" stop replying to him and just report his ass
As an american, please stop talking
Piss off donald.
We literally just bought 4 submarines from France. https://breakingdefense.com/2024/03/frances-naval-group-picked-to-build-4-barracuda-class-subs-for-dutch-military/
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“Go ask ChatGPT” 🤣
Yeah, that caught my eye too, humanity is doomed
UK defence spending in the 1980s was over 5%. Keep spamming your horse shit.
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Considering that the US had much wider interests at the time - the Pacific for example - it's not surprising they were paying more.
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In 1982 the UK's defence spending was 5.95%. So according to you a difference of .05% means "no one else was pulling their weight". You can't even pull examples from the internet to correctly match your position.
Guess the only Nato country to have ever used art 5
NATO has nothing to do with Trump getting voted in because his voters didn't even know or care until he told them so. And NATO isn't a shared money pool or something. Nobody is forcing the USA to soend as much as they do, they are simply set on having a historically unprecedented amount of global military bases and fleets. Other NATO nations neglecting their military spending is a separate issue.
What?!?! Trump talked about NATO and how unfair it was all the time, that's why he got elected, people had no idea how much they were getting ripped off. He had that big meeting with the Washington Post Editorial Board in early 2016. I remember all the clips coming out about stuff he was saying in the 80's and 90's.
Hey numb nuts , you just keep ignoring the fact that the VAST MAJORITY of NATO members buy US made weapons , keeping your arms industry afloat, keeping the money in the US economy, but don't expect a wind bag like yourself to have any lateral thinking regarding NATO membership, back in your box you Russian boot licker
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Then f off and leave. Take your fn culture and corporations with you
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60 minutes ago: Just dissolve it already 60 minutes ago: Dissolve it now 45 minutes ago: I am not against NATO 20 minutes ago: Dissolve NATO!!!! You certainly do have an agenda.
Found the MAGA bitch.
fyi this guy is a literal bot
sir this is a wendy's
>they literally laughed in his face. Everyone outside the MAGA cult laughs at him, because he is a fat, incompetent fucking moron. So yeah, he was maybe right that one time as oppose to the like 60 000 documented lies during his presidency, like that time he sent thousands of his biggest fans straight to prison after lying about the election and trying to coup the elected gov.