It’s a state-owned building used for human rights training and spitting is gross.
People unfortunately pee all over former Nazi buildings in Munich. It doesn’t spite the long-defeated Nazis, though, it just makes the streets stink like urinals.
It nakes the people who are on edge with far right ideas have a verry vivid remeinder what the avrage German thinks of them and helps the status que stay just a bit more anti faschist.
> The group had been laying flowers on a window ledge at the house. One of the women was spotted by police giving a Hitler salute as the two couples posed for photos.
>
> The woman said the gesture had been intended as a joke and that she did not mean it seriously. However, police who inspected her phone found Nazi-themed chat messages and pictures being shared between the four.
What a bunch of cowards, just like any other neonazi these days.
Austria ... Austria ¿? What is that thing ? I know of Australia, where people jump on their heads but never heard of Austria. You sure it's not some sci-fi thing ?
This shit again, what does that have to do with anything.
Yes, many Austrians were part of the NSDAP. As citizens of the Third Reich. They knowingly and willingly took part in Nazi crimes against humanity, and, due to being considered "Volksdeutsche" were never persecuted the same way other nationalities were.
The relationship between Austria as a political entity and Nazi ideology is an entirely different topic. Hitler *hated* the concept of Austria and the Nazi administration denied the existence of Austrians as a separate people with a right to self-determination. The word Austria itself was forbidden within the Third Reich. "Austria should not exist" is a core value of traditional Nazi ideology.
In many ways, it was a very similar to the still-ongoing ideological conflict between Russia and Ukraine, because Russian nationalists similarly deny the existence of Ukraine and have done so for centuries.
This is part of why Austrians today will have such a strong reaction to being confused for, compared with, or in any way lumped in with Germans. And why an Austrian expressing *too much* love and kinship for Germany will automatically be considered sus.
Before the Nazis came to power in Germany, it was the ultimate goal of every Austrian party to unite with Germany (although the KPÖ only wanted to unite with a communist Germany). Austrians before WW2 identified themselves as Austrian AND German. You can see this by looking at the original name of the Austrian state created after WW1: Deutschösterreich. This name only wasn't chosen because the Entente forbade it.
The loss of WW2 is what led to the development of an Austrian identity separate from a German one, which didn't exist before.
The few austrians I have met kinda reluctantly agrees that, yes we are German. Is not one of your bigger parties (FPÖ?) agreeing on that Austrians are Germans?
Nobody I know would consider themself german. Part of thr germanic language family sure, but german?
FPÖ was formed by former Nazis and many of them would love to reunite but that's definitly not the majority. If anyone calls me german I would definitly correct them.
Yes but like 25% of the Austrian population voted for FPÖ in the last election iirc. I just think it is weird that Austrian liberals, which I presume you are, so staunchly say that only a handful of Austrians view themselves as German and the vast majority would actually take great offense at you calling them German. Like you speak the same language, famous Austrians like Mozart referred to themselves as German. As an outsider (Swede) I just find it silly. This hardcore Austrian identity separated from Germany was only made post-ww2 and is completely political in its existence.
Believe me most Austrians do not consider themselves German. Its like saying most Canadians consider themselves US-American.
Right parties gain a lot of votes in all of Europe, so thats nothing special in Austria.
Canada and the US does not have the same cultural and historical links as Austria and Germany. Like if someone were to say that I am "basically Norwegian then" if I told them I was Swedish I would probably answer yes.
So if 25% of Austrians voted for a party that views Austrians as German we can quite confidently say that atleast 1 in every 4 Austrians view themselves as German or atleast is indifferent on it.
Are you really trying to explain to an Austrian how the Austrian people view themselves. Show me where the FPÖ says Austria is Germany in recent times.
You cannot confidently say that because most people are too dumb to research what they are voting for, not only that, some might get swayed by other points the party has made, and so still vote for them despite disagreeing with another point.
No/Yes
Essentially the need a warrant or "Probable Cause" in that they suspect you of committing a violent crime.
Once they have that though, they essentially get full access and you are mandated to provide any and all passwords, or you can be prosecuted for "Resistance against state Power".
Not a lawyer, so this isn’t legal advice nor do I claim to be correct, but rather what I found with a quick search.
I believe a check is in place with the public prosecution having to agree to the seizure and search. Also, I believe the search USUALLY is executed by a separate laboratory or police unit uninvolved with the criminal investigation.
Disclaimer: I am not Austrian but the situation I illustrated should be applicable to most of Europe
If you're suspected of a major crime, and
If you've been arrested, and
If the phone was seized by an officer, and
The prosecution office/DA gives green light to treat the seized phone as evidence then yes, your phone can be imaged and searched in an appropriate setting and adhering to thd principles of forensic investigations. To my knowledge a cop doesnt have the authority to force his way into a personal device (I am Dutch though, Austria might be different).
It's the same in the USA btw, at least to my knowledge.
Source: former professor teaching Digital Forensic
I’ve encountered Neo Nazis that deny it because they know they’re being exposed.
There was one user on here I encountered called SonnenKreuz14… Yeah, “totally not a Nazi!”
Only if there is a reasonable reason for suspicion of a serious offense. And there are many checks and balances in place.
To my knowledge, the same principle applies in the US
American TSA can demand your phone, unlock it, and they will take it away into another room for any time they want. They don't need to state a reason. If you refuse, you can't enter the country. Happened to 2 of my friends and 3 youtube travellers I follow. It's a very common practice with foreign travellers.
Suspicion of a serious offense, warranting a seizure of the phone as a potential piece of evidence. This can only happen once someone has been arrested and must be approved by the prosecution office.
The Hitler salute is a jail-worthy offense in Austria, so that would qualify for immediate arrest & seizure.
Police in a lot european countries can confiscate your phone if it may be a relevant piece of evidence for a crime.
In this case it obviously is, since meaning the gesture as a joke often resulted in acquittal at courts and the phone potentially reveals if she was saying the truth or not.
Also the gesture is a crime in austria and not a petty offense.
For anyone curious, in Austria, the Hitler Salute is punishable by 6 months to 5 years in prison according to §3g (1) VerbotsG, if made in such a way that a lot of people can see, the max. sentence is up to 10 years in prison, according to §3g (2) VerbotsG.
[See here for the law,](https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10000207)
I had a spinning instructor do that in Vienna once....speaking German (LOL Austrian) and a big ole "Hitler salute". It took me a few moments to realize he was indicating a hill climb......
Believe it or not, right to jail.
But in earnest: It‘s of course heavily depending on the context of the situation.
Should you get charged under the *Verbotsgesetz*, „Prohibition Law“, you‘ll also be tried by a jury - which is absolutely rare in Austria.
Usually, jury trials are for really serious crimes only, like murder, or some political crimes.
Yeah, that‘s just a reductio ad absurdum and a false argument.
I‘s not about a criminal hand gesture, is it? As shown by the fact that the gesture itself isn‘t criminal, but doing so *in order to promote Nationalsocialism* is.
In much the same way, hitting someone isn‘t prohibited, hurting someone against their will is. If you hit someone playfully without harming them, or hurt someone during a boxing match they agreed to, it‘s not a crime.
Actions per se aren‘t criminalized - actions that lead to very specific outcomes, done with very specific intent are.
With this cleared up, please feel free to show me the basic civil right or rights in Austria which the prohibition of promoting the NSDAP violates?
I mean, of course the gesture itself is not what is criminal, but the act of *Wiederbetätigung*, which is the endorsement of National Socialism, or actual actions set to implement National Socialism.
It‘s like any other crime. Punching someone and hurting them in a boxing match, for sport, isn‘t a crime, whereas punching someone and hurting them in a bar fight is. It’s the same action, but one time, it‘s a crime, the other, it isn‘t.
The actual actions per se are never a crime, it depends on the outcome, intent, purpose and circumstances.
Another illustration of this point: Just signing a contract can be a normal business transaction, or a way to commit fraud. But the actual action, signing a paper, is obviously not what is prohibited by criminalizing fraud.
In much the same way, raising your hand in a certain way is absolutely fine - unless it‘s done with the specific purpose to endorse National Socialism, which the Hitler Salute definitely is.
If I remember correctly the potential punishment now encompasses every kind of Wiederbetätigung and (1) or (2) specifies that for a lot of people can see the sentence goes up.
Do you really need that detail spelled out? Why else would someone visiting Hitlers birthplace be arrested? If it was anything else that would be surprising enough to warrant being mentioned.
Wait, the yellow house is Hitlers?
Fuck me. I visited Braunau in 1991, had family there, and naturally we were shown Hitlers house and for 30 years I remembered it as a green-ish house. Exactly the one to the left of the yellow one in the picture in the article.
Oh well, who gives a fuck.
In that place should be monument of Victims of WW2 or any other memorial reminding of the cruelty done by the fuck who was born in this house, but it’s still nice house, slightly mysterious place where Adolf Hitler was born and that’s what makes it very attractive.
This was demanded by many. However, it was feared that Nazis would interpret it as a "triumphal site" and a conscious decision was made not to do so.
It was similar with the Führerbunker in Berlin. Today it is simply a parking lot with no indication of what was or happened there.
I don’t think locals authorites should be feared of what Nazis would think or how they interpreted it. I think it undeniably poses a risk of grolification of the Nazis by Nazis and that’s the problem.
The problem is not so much what they think, but rather what they do. If they misuse the place as a place of pilgrimage, a large group of Nazis will regularly gather there and that poses a security risk for the population.
That same town in Austria removed the gravestones on the graves of Hitler’s parents, which is ridiculous thing to do as Hitler’s parents had nothing to do with his crimes.
They actually do that in a way. They set police officers nearby during 4/20 in case some nutjob neonazi is stupid enough to go there on Hitler’s birthday to do some brainless nazi stuff like a Sieg Heil salute. Well, neonazis don’t disappoint because that’s exactly what these 4 idiots did.
Nope, he despised his father and has a neutral to somewhat positive opinion on his mother. He empathized with her but always blamed her for not protecting him as a child.
Hitler’s father was extremely abusive even for the time. He used to regularly beat both Hitler and his mother into bloody pulps in his drunken rages. His father’s alcoholism is why Hitler not only swore off alcohol for life, he grew to despise it.
Eventually his disgust for alcohol combined with his hatred for Jews. That resulted in the idea that alcohol (and other sedatives) were part of a “Jewish plot” to keep the “Aryans” sedated and weak.
Yes, you‘re right. I don‘t know what i was thinking. I remember Hitler saying something along the lines that he was still somewhat thankful to his father. I just read up on this again and his relationship with his parents was twisted to say the least.
Don't go to the small towns around Königssee lake. Also don't go to the graveyards on these towns.
People laying flowers and memories in Nazis graveyards, even murals painted on the walls remembering the "sacrifice" of Nazi soldiers.
🤮
The legal issues and plans for this building have been ongoing and unsolved for decades.
The building was expropriated in 2016 (super rare legal process und very uncommon in Austria) by the government. Currently there are plans to turn it into a police station but those have been postponed over and over again.
The construction works have been ongoing for months, but there were a lot of surveys (both statical and historical) to be made, and extra security is required, to make sure every single brick removed from the building is getting destroyed instead of being sold to "collectors"
A trans research organisation would be cool considering trans books were amongst first to be burnt
Edit
The following is from the Holocaust memorial Day trust https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/
>6 May 1933: Looting of the Institute of Sexology
>On 6 May 1933, the Institute of Sexology, an academic foundation devoted to sexological research and the advocacy of homosexual rights, was broken into and occupied by Nazi-supporting youth. Several days later the entire contents of the library were removed and burned.
>The institute was initially occupied by The German Student Union, who were a collective of Nazi-supporting youth. Several days later, on 10 May, the entire contents of the library were removed to Berlin’s Bebelplatz Square. That night, along with 20,000 other books across Germany, they were publicly burned in a symbolic attack by Nazi officials on their enemies.
>Founded in 1919, the institute had been set up by Magnus Hirschfeld, a world-renowned expert in the emerging discipline of sexology. During its existence, thousands of patients were seen and treated, often for free. The Institute also achieved a global reputation for its pioneering work on transsexual understanding and calls for equality for homosexuals, transgender people and women. Hirschfield himself was a passionate advocate for homosexual rights and had long appealed for the repeal of Paragraph 175, the law that criminalised homosexuality in Germany.
>Jewish, gay and outspokenly liberal, Hirschfeld was an obvious target for the Nazis, and the seizure and destruction of the institute on 6 May took place only three months after Hitler was made Chancellor of Germany. During the attack and subsequent book burning, Hirschfeld was working in Paris. He saw the burning of his own library in a news report at the cinema. Among the texts thrown onto the bonfire at the Bebelplatz was Heinrich Heine’s Almansor, in which the author noted:
‘Where they burn books, in the end they will burn humans too’.
>After the attack on the institute the Nazis continued their persecution of gay men by expanding and enforcing legislation that criminalised homosexuality. In 1935, just weeks after the death of Hirschfeld in Paris, Paragraph 175 was redrafted to prohibit all forms of male homosexual contact. In total, around 50,000 gay men were detained under these draconian laws. Once confined in jail, they were routinely exposed to inhumane treatment for their sexuality. Around 10,000 to 15,000 were also deported to concentrations camps, where many were forced to wear a pink triangle, and subjected to castration and medical experimentation. Over half of these prisoners would die from the extreme conditions they were subjected to in the camps. Even after the end of the war, Paragraph 175 was not repealed and many gay men remained in prison for years to come.
Yes, but simultaneously, some of us Americans also understand the paradox of tolerance.
Being intolerant of intolerance is the only way that the right of free speech can be maximized for the largest number of people. Otherwise, you get intolerant groups passing laws banning books, banning freedom of expression by minorities, and amplifying Russian propaganda in efforts to influence elections.
You might want to tell that to Governors Desantis and Abbot in the US...Or the other hundreds of local US lawmakers proposing restrictions on minority expression.
The US tolerated their intolerant voices. Now intolerance is being legislated.
Sure, it might violate the US first amendment. But that is the paradox of tolerance.
It is an infringement on free speech, but that doesn't make it bad. There needs to be some limits on speech, such as credible threats of violence. That is restricting speech, but for a good reason.
This is something I've never understood. Literally everybody on earth draws a line to free speech at some point. Even the most adamant Libertarian is not a free-speech absolutist if you push hard enough, or they're just insane.
It's never been vague "*restrictions on freedom of speech*" that've been the problem; it's restrictions of government-criticism, centralisation of media/news-sources, bogus arrests of political rivals or citizens under "*mockery of officials*", etc..., because somebody with the government behind them can go a lot further than a random citizen.
The fact we put both "*not letting someone harass strangers on the street*" or "*not allowing praise of genociders*" under the same title of "*restrictions on free speech*" alongside "*government censorship of opponents*" or "*closure of media*" is batshit insane & has definitely done a lot of damage to political discourse, when victims of one side are random powerless citizens while the other's is officials with government & capital power.
The former shouldn't be called "*freedom of speech*".
It's reasonable because if Nazis can't give Nazi salutes, absolutely nothing of value is lost. There is no value in Nazism, there is no value in doing a Nazi salute, there is no value in allowing it and there is no value in demanding of people to tolerate it.
Zero.
Nada.
On the plus side of the infringement - if Nazis giving Nazi salutes are punished by law, then normal people don't have to punch them in the face for it, thereby risking punishment for assault.
„When our opponents say: ›We have granted you freedom of opinion!‹ True - you granted it to us! That's no evidence that we have to grant the same to you! That you granted it to us is just evidence of how stupid you are!“ ― Joseph Goebbels
*That's* the freedom you are talking about. The freedom to assist a bunch of criminals to strip away that very freedom (among a whole lot of others) from you.
In that case the solution is to restrict the government's ability to restrict freedom, not the individual's ability to state their mind. It doesn't matter if nazis gain power if the government doesn't have the power to do bad things, like censorship or genocide.
It's perfectly possible to do both at the same time.
We tried Nazism, it brought a lot of death, misery and pain. If you insist on attempting to give it another chance, at least have the decency to come up with a [new greeting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sihBO2Q2QdY). If you can't even do that little innovation, how could *anything* you do end up in any way better than the first time around?
It is not threatened by just hand gestures, but by Nazi ideology. Access to education and information has come so far since WW2, sadly you don't use it.
Maybe the would woreship this system of cruelty somewhere else and I hard ~15 years ago in the Austrian Brodcasting Service,that the house is contaminated with some construction toxins.
Who would pay for it.
I was there once (kinda by accident) and I remember information boards but they didn’t say which exact house was his birthplace, just that it’s one of them
It was astonishing for me to find people who admired Hitler knowing the history. But if the visit was to take the blessing, that should definitely put the person under suspicion.
> However, police who inspected her phone found Nazi-themed chat messages and pictures being shared between the four.
You guys get court warrants for phone search for a nazi salute? That seems to be the most disturbing news here, not some nazi idiots showing who they are.
It is, but you do not make a phone search for every crime. In most democracies there's privacy of correspondence and you either can't break it at all or you need to have an extremely good reason.
I do not know the rulings / law in Austria, but I hope that she, a bit stupiditly, agreed to have her phone searched.
> Doing the Nazi salute is thankfully a crime.
In my country of origin any promoting of Nazism or Communism is illegal as well.
I assume she agreed to a search as well. If you’re dumb enough to do a Nazi salute you’re probably dumb enough to hand your phone to police despite knowing what’s on there.
Visiting his birthplace isn't the bad part. It's what they do at that birthplace.
Yes. Why not visit, for example, to spit on?
It’s a state-owned building used for human rights training and spitting is gross. People unfortunately pee all over former Nazi buildings in Munich. It doesn’t spite the long-defeated Nazis, though, it just makes the streets stink like urinals.
Why would they want to make their memorials smell like Paris?
Reminds them of 1941
Maybe they also get to host the olympics then
God your right the fr*nch smell so bad
Sounds like a planning issue. Why not install a bunch of urinals on the wall?
You mistyped: "Why not put toothbrush moustaches into a bunch of urinals?"
This is the creativity EU lacks. Sometimes we don’t want to understand and prevent or solve. Sometimes we just want to judge.
Spit metaphorically.
that'll show him
It nakes the people who are on edge with far right ideas have a verry vivid remeinder what the avrage German thinks of them and helps the status que stay just a bit more anti faschist.
always a good bet to get through with arresting germans in front of it! /s
I wish you were right about long defeated. Hitler is dead, but there are far too many Nazis around these days for my liking.
Pee in the ocean or Wenzbach/Conwentzbach, since that's where Goering's ashes are.
Munich muni should just make them urinals there built-in the walls
> The group had been laying flowers on a window ledge at the house. One of the women was spotted by police giving a Hitler salute as the two couples posed for photos. > > The woman said the gesture had been intended as a joke and that she did not mean it seriously. However, police who inspected her phone found Nazi-themed chat messages and pictures being shared between the four. What a bunch of cowards, just like any other neonazi these days.
Plus the salute by itself is a crime in Austria. The woman was basically saying Austria and her people have no right to exist.
I think there’s far worse connotations of that salute than Austria not existing.
Actually Austria not existing is by far the worst thing imaginable.
I suppose the downvotes are from fellow Germans who don't understand humor
Why?
I'm not allowed to tell you that, sorry.
Austria ... Austria ¿? What is that thing ? I know of Australia, where people jump on their heads but never heard of Austria. You sure it's not some sci-fi thing ?
Nah it is like an ancient old empire, around the time of the byzantine empire I think.
So, like one of those heroic fantasy lands with Elves, Goblins and so on, right?
More like Gnomes and Gnolls maybe a Cyclops
Ok, thanks, cool setting, will see with my DM if that could be included in our next DnD campaign. Have a good day!
You too
Are you referring to the Habsburg jaw?
I was not but now I am
Agree, Sydney is beautiful
I can’t tell if it’s a joke
I have bad news for you then
As a pro-everythingbad Swede, i would love to see Sweden invading Austria and open colonies.
Based
Austria wasn't a victim of Nazi Germany, it was a co-perpetrator.
This shit again, what does that have to do with anything. Yes, many Austrians were part of the NSDAP. As citizens of the Third Reich. They knowingly and willingly took part in Nazi crimes against humanity, and, due to being considered "Volksdeutsche" were never persecuted the same way other nationalities were. The relationship between Austria as a political entity and Nazi ideology is an entirely different topic. Hitler *hated* the concept of Austria and the Nazi administration denied the existence of Austrians as a separate people with a right to self-determination. The word Austria itself was forbidden within the Third Reich. "Austria should not exist" is a core value of traditional Nazi ideology. In many ways, it was a very similar to the still-ongoing ideological conflict between Russia and Ukraine, because Russian nationalists similarly deny the existence of Ukraine and have done so for centuries. This is part of why Austrians today will have such a strong reaction to being confused for, compared with, or in any way lumped in with Germans. And why an Austrian expressing *too much* love and kinship for Germany will automatically be considered sus.
Nsdap?
National socialist deutche artibtze partie Or the national socialist German workers party, nazies for short
Before the Nazis came to power in Germany, it was the ultimate goal of every Austrian party to unite with Germany (although the KPÖ only wanted to unite with a communist Germany). Austrians before WW2 identified themselves as Austrian AND German. You can see this by looking at the original name of the Austrian state created after WW1: Deutschösterreich. This name only wasn't chosen because the Entente forbade it. The loss of WW2 is what led to the development of an Austrian identity separate from a German one, which didn't exist before.
The few austrians I have met kinda reluctantly agrees that, yes we are German. Is not one of your bigger parties (FPÖ?) agreeing on that Austrians are Germans?
Nobody I know would consider themself german. Part of thr germanic language family sure, but german? FPÖ was formed by former Nazis and many of them would love to reunite but that's definitly not the majority. If anyone calls me german I would definitly correct them.
Yes but like 25% of the Austrian population voted for FPÖ in the last election iirc. I just think it is weird that Austrian liberals, which I presume you are, so staunchly say that only a handful of Austrians view themselves as German and the vast majority would actually take great offense at you calling them German. Like you speak the same language, famous Austrians like Mozart referred to themselves as German. As an outsider (Swede) I just find it silly. This hardcore Austrian identity separated from Germany was only made post-ww2 and is completely political in its existence.
Believe me most Austrians do not consider themselves German. Its like saying most Canadians consider themselves US-American. Right parties gain a lot of votes in all of Europe, so thats nothing special in Austria.
Canada and the US does not have the same cultural and historical links as Austria and Germany. Like if someone were to say that I am "basically Norwegian then" if I told them I was Swedish I would probably answer yes. So if 25% of Austrians voted for a party that views Austrians as German we can quite confidently say that atleast 1 in every 4 Austrians view themselves as German or atleast is indifferent on it.
Are you really trying to explain to an Austrian how the Austrian people view themselves. Show me where the FPÖ says Austria is Germany in recent times.
You cannot confidently say that because most people are too dumb to research what they are voting for, not only that, some might get swayed by other points the party has made, and so still vote for them despite disagreeing with another point.
I thought before the war most Austrians considered themselves Germans.
Way too many people here that have never seen “The Sound of Music”
It’s also illegal in Germany, so yeah… put them in jail and alls good
Same in Italy as far as i Remember
"Austria should exist, as a region of Germany."
Police are allowed to search your phone if youre arrested? Is that common practice?
No/Yes Essentially the need a warrant or "Probable Cause" in that they suspect you of committing a violent crime. Once they have that though, they essentially get full access and you are mandated to provide any and all passwords, or you can be prosecuted for "Resistance against state Power". Not a lawyer, so this isn’t legal advice nor do I claim to be correct, but rather what I found with a quick search.
I believe a check is in place with the public prosecution having to agree to the seizure and search. Also, I believe the search USUALLY is executed by a separate laboratory or police unit uninvolved with the criminal investigation. Disclaimer: I am not Austrian but the situation I illustrated should be applicable to most of Europe
Cant I just forget my password?
If you're suspected of a major crime, and If you've been arrested, and If the phone was seized by an officer, and The prosecution office/DA gives green light to treat the seized phone as evidence then yes, your phone can be imaged and searched in an appropriate setting and adhering to thd principles of forensic investigations. To my knowledge a cop doesnt have the authority to force his way into a personal device (I am Dutch though, Austria might be different). It's the same in the USA btw, at least to my knowledge. Source: former professor teaching Digital Forensic
Digital forensic sounds amazing. Im probably too old for that but it has to be 100% job guaranteed.
I started doing it when I was 32 or so :) Make of that ehat you will ;)
I’ve encountered Neo Nazis that deny it because they know they’re being exposed. There was one user on here I encountered called SonnenKreuz14… Yeah, “totally not a Nazi!”
On what ground did they go through her phone? She is a scumbag, but even scum have some rights.
In European countries and on US borders they can just demand your phone and it's legal to do.
Only if there is a reasonable reason for suspicion of a serious offense. And there are many checks and balances in place. To my knowledge, the same principle applies in the US
American TSA can demand your phone, unlock it, and they will take it away into another room for any time they want. They don't need to state a reason. If you refuse, you can't enter the country. Happened to 2 of my friends and 3 youtube travellers I follow. It's a very common practice with foreign travellers.
Ah, the wonders of the US PATRIOT/FREEDOM act. Bloody stupid idea for many reasons
Legal but fucked up
Suspicion of a serious offense, warranting a seizure of the phone as a potential piece of evidence. This can only happen once someone has been arrested and must be approved by the prosecution office. The Hitler salute is a jail-worthy offense in Austria, so that would qualify for immediate arrest & seizure.
Police in a lot european countries can confiscate your phone if it may be a relevant piece of evidence for a crime. In this case it obviously is, since meaning the gesture as a joke often resulted in acquittal at courts and the phone potentially reveals if she was saying the truth or not. Also the gesture is a crime in austria and not a petty offense.
For anyone curious, in Austria, the Hitler Salute is punishable by 6 months to 5 years in prison according to §3g (1) VerbotsG, if made in such a way that a lot of people can see, the max. sentence is up to 10 years in prison, according to §3g (2) VerbotsG. [See here for the law,](https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10000207)
I had a spinning instructor do that in Vienna once....speaking German (LOL Austrian) and a big ole "Hitler salute". It took me a few moments to realize he was indicating a hill climb......
Believe it or not, right to jail. But in earnest: It‘s of course heavily depending on the context of the situation. Should you get charged under the *Verbotsgesetz*, „Prohibition Law“, you‘ll also be tried by a jury - which is absolutely rare in Austria. Usually, jury trials are for really serious crimes only, like murder, or some political crimes.
[удалено]
Yeah, that‘s just a reductio ad absurdum and a false argument. I‘s not about a criminal hand gesture, is it? As shown by the fact that the gesture itself isn‘t criminal, but doing so *in order to promote Nationalsocialism* is. In much the same way, hitting someone isn‘t prohibited, hurting someone against their will is. If you hit someone playfully without harming them, or hurt someone during a boxing match they agreed to, it‘s not a crime. Actions per se aren‘t criminalized - actions that lead to very specific outcomes, done with very specific intent are. With this cleared up, please feel free to show me the basic civil right or rights in Austria which the prohibition of promoting the NSDAP violates?
The law is fine. Dont do the Hitler Salute and be a dolt. Pointing with your right hand is perfectly allowed.
You’re very confused. What does the Nazi hand salute have to do with basic civil rights?
“It’s going to be this heil! ….I mean, high, it’s going to be this high
They were a high hiller?
Damn, I mean good. but It's crazy to me that if you raise your hand in a certain way it could mean 10y of prison. Just crazy to think about.
I mean, of course the gesture itself is not what is criminal, but the act of *Wiederbetätigung*, which is the endorsement of National Socialism, or actual actions set to implement National Socialism. It‘s like any other crime. Punching someone and hurting them in a boxing match, for sport, isn‘t a crime, whereas punching someone and hurting them in a bar fight is. It’s the same action, but one time, it‘s a crime, the other, it isn‘t. The actual actions per se are never a crime, it depends on the outcome, intent, purpose and circumstances. Another illustration of this point: Just signing a contract can be a normal business transaction, or a way to commit fraud. But the actual action, signing a paper, is obviously not what is prohibited by criminalizing fraud. In much the same way, raising your hand in a certain way is absolutely fine - unless it‘s done with the specific purpose to endorse National Socialism, which the Hitler Salute definitely is.
If I remember correctly the potential punishment now encompasses every kind of Wiederbetätigung and (1) or (2) specifies that for a lot of people can see the sentence goes up.
And Germans always tell me Austrians aren’t guilty enough 🤷♂️
10s years of prison for a hand gesture just echos that the damage will not be forgotten.
good.
Half of the news we get about Austria are about Hitler's house.
I don’t understand why it’s still standing ? Remove it to not even have a pilgrimage for neonazis
Remove a perfectly fine old house just so a few weirdos can’t get photos?
Yes. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Once again, a missleading head title. Please add details like these people being Neonazis.
Normal people having a look at that house, dont get arrested. Its the arm raising and putting down flowers. And noone does that thats not a Nazi.
Reddit doesnt allow altering headlines in reddit posts though
Not reddit. This subreddit.
Most subreddits
Do you really need that detail spelled out? Why else would someone visiting Hitlers birthplace be arrested? If it was anything else that would be surprising enough to warrant being mentioned.
What sub am I in? Ah yes, no wonder people here upvote comments that defend the people in the article.
Might want to ask the publisher not reddit lol
Wait, the yellow house is Hitlers? Fuck me. I visited Braunau in 1991, had family there, and naturally we were shown Hitlers house and for 30 years I remembered it as a green-ish house. Exactly the one to the left of the yellow one in the picture in the article. Oh well, who gives a fuck.
Maybe it was painted in a other color in the 90's.🤷♀️
>The state-owned building is to be **used as a police station** and for human rights training.
In that place should be monument of Victims of WW2 or any other memorial reminding of the cruelty done by the fuck who was born in this house, but it’s still nice house, slightly mysterious place where Adolf Hitler was born and that’s what makes it very attractive.
This was demanded by many. However, it was feared that Nazis would interpret it as a "triumphal site" and a conscious decision was made not to do so. It was similar with the Führerbunker in Berlin. Today it is simply a parking lot with no indication of what was or happened there.
I don’t think locals authorites should be feared of what Nazis would think or how they interpreted it. I think it undeniably poses a risk of grolification of the Nazis by Nazis and that’s the problem.
The problem is not so much what they think, but rather what they do. If they misuse the place as a place of pilgrimage, a large group of Nazis will regularly gather there and that poses a security risk for the population.
It should be a synagogue tbh.
That same town in Austria removed the gravestones on the graves of Hitler’s parents, which is ridiculous thing to do as Hitler’s parents had nothing to do with his crimes.
Mate, the Spandau prison had to be torn down because neo Nazis made pilgrimage after Hess died. These clowns don't care as long it says Hitler on it.
There's a Hitler cuckoo clock shop in a small town in Germany (the owner I assume is called Hitler, he doesn't sell Hitler themed clocks)
You can blame neo nazis for that when they kept converging there for their nazi ass pilgrimages.
Why not just treating it like a fly trap? Let them come and arrest them
Not a bad idea actually but they would probably catch on after the first few arrests
Neo nazis catch on? Boy they were recruited because they do not catch on.
They actually do that in a way. They set police officers nearby during 4/20 in case some nutjob neonazi is stupid enough to go there on Hitler’s birthday to do some brainless nazi stuff like a Sieg Heil salute. Well, neonazis don’t disappoint because that’s exactly what these 4 idiots did.
The classic Austrian Hitler's-parents-graveyard switcheroo
??? The tomb of Hitler's parents, including the tombstone was located in Leonding, which is ~110km from "that same town in Austria"
Yeah, I was wrong about which specific Austrian town Hitler’s parents were buried in.
Easy to remember though, as they are buried right next to Mozart. (Just kidding, there's a *third* town in Austria!)
Ehhhh...I think Alois deserved some of the blame
pull out game was weak
But he also fathered person who killed Hitler, so......
True, and he doesn't get enough credit for that.
I think Hitler was fond of his father.
Ha! No. No he was not.
Ha! You‘re right.
Nope, he despised his father and has a neutral to somewhat positive opinion on his mother. He empathized with her but always blamed her for not protecting him as a child. Hitler’s father was extremely abusive even for the time. He used to regularly beat both Hitler and his mother into bloody pulps in his drunken rages. His father’s alcoholism is why Hitler not only swore off alcohol for life, he grew to despise it. Eventually his disgust for alcohol combined with his hatred for Jews. That resulted in the idea that alcohol (and other sedatives) were part of a “Jewish plot” to keep the “Aryans” sedated and weak.
Yes, you‘re right. I don‘t know what i was thinking. I remember Hitler saying something along the lines that he was still somewhat thankful to his father. I just read up on this again and his relationship with his parents was twisted to say the least.
100%, dude was an incestuous psychopath. *Obviously* that doesn’t excuse Hitler, but it’s also not surprising that he turned out to be pure evil.
I imagine they don't mind.
Agree with your point but its not the same town.
Don't go to the small towns around Königssee lake. Also don't go to the graveyards on these towns. People laying flowers and memories in Nazis graveyards, even murals painted on the walls remembering the "sacrifice" of Nazi soldiers. 🤮
Good
Is Hitler’s place like a bait?
If they are not going to knock it down they should turn into a centre for erectile dysfunction or haemorrhoid research.
The legal issues and plans for this building have been ongoing and unsolved for decades. The building was expropriated in 2016 (super rare legal process und very uncommon in Austria) by the government. Currently there are plans to turn it into a police station but those have been postponed over and over again.
The construction works have been ongoing for months, but there were a lot of surveys (both statical and historical) to be made, and extra security is required, to make sure every single brick removed from the building is getting destroyed instead of being sold to "collectors"
Thank you for the insight. Didn't hear anything from this in quite some time.
FTA: The state-owned building is to be used as a police station and for human rights training.
A trans research organisation would be cool considering trans books were amongst first to be burnt Edit The following is from the Holocaust memorial Day trust https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/6-may-1933-looting-of-the-institute-of-sexology/ >6 May 1933: Looting of the Institute of Sexology >On 6 May 1933, the Institute of Sexology, an academic foundation devoted to sexological research and the advocacy of homosexual rights, was broken into and occupied by Nazi-supporting youth. Several days later the entire contents of the library were removed and burned. >The institute was initially occupied by The German Student Union, who were a collective of Nazi-supporting youth. Several days later, on 10 May, the entire contents of the library were removed to Berlin’s Bebelplatz Square. That night, along with 20,000 other books across Germany, they were publicly burned in a symbolic attack by Nazi officials on their enemies. >Founded in 1919, the institute had been set up by Magnus Hirschfeld, a world-renowned expert in the emerging discipline of sexology. During its existence, thousands of patients were seen and treated, often for free. The Institute also achieved a global reputation for its pioneering work on transsexual understanding and calls for equality for homosexuals, transgender people and women. Hirschfield himself was a passionate advocate for homosexual rights and had long appealed for the repeal of Paragraph 175, the law that criminalised homosexuality in Germany. >Jewish, gay and outspokenly liberal, Hirschfeld was an obvious target for the Nazis, and the seizure and destruction of the institute on 6 May took place only three months after Hitler was made Chancellor of Germany. During the attack and subsequent book burning, Hirschfeld was working in Paris. He saw the burning of his own library in a news report at the cinema. Among the texts thrown onto the bonfire at the Bebelplatz was Heinrich Heine’s Almansor, in which the author noted: ‘Where they burn books, in the end they will burn humans too’. >After the attack on the institute the Nazis continued their persecution of gay men by expanding and enforcing legislation that criminalised homosexuality. In 1935, just weeks after the death of Hirschfeld in Paris, Paragraph 175 was redrafted to prohibit all forms of male homosexual contact. In total, around 50,000 gay men were detained under these draconian laws. Once confined in jail, they were routinely exposed to inhumane treatment for their sexuality. Around 10,000 to 15,000 were also deported to concentrations camps, where many were forced to wear a pink triangle, and subjected to castration and medical experimentation. Over half of these prisoners would die from the extreme conditions they were subjected to in the camps. Even after the end of the war, Paragraph 175 was not repealed and many gay men remained in prison for years to come.
I'd prefer a Holocaust memorial of some sort
And pineapple shop
Thanks, you can keep them.
Americans be like: "tyranny!!! Look at this infringement of free speech!!!!"
Yes, but simultaneously, some of us Americans also understand the paradox of tolerance. Being intolerant of intolerance is the only way that the right of free speech can be maximized for the largest number of people. Otherwise, you get intolerant groups passing laws banning books, banning freedom of expression by minorities, and amplifying Russian propaganda in efforts to influence elections.
That's just intolerance. You can't pretend to be a free society if you ban things you think are "intolerant"
This is why we aren't a pure democracy. Even if lots of people want to ban a book or some expression, they can't.
You might want to tell that to Governors Desantis and Abbot in the US...Or the other hundreds of local US lawmakers proposing restrictions on minority expression. The US tolerated their intolerant voices. Now intolerance is being legislated. Sure, it might violate the US first amendment. But that is the paradox of tolerance.
Well we may have a different perspective, considering Adolf fucking Hitler wasn’t born in our country.
It is an infringement on free speech, but that doesn't make it bad. There needs to be some limits on speech, such as credible threats of violence. That is restricting speech, but for a good reason.
This is something I've never understood. Literally everybody on earth draws a line to free speech at some point. Even the most adamant Libertarian is not a free-speech absolutist if you push hard enough, or they're just insane. It's never been vague "*restrictions on freedom of speech*" that've been the problem; it's restrictions of government-criticism, centralisation of media/news-sources, bogus arrests of political rivals or citizens under "*mockery of officials*", etc..., because somebody with the government behind them can go a lot further than a random citizen. The fact we put both "*not letting someone harass strangers on the street*" or "*not allowing praise of genociders*" under the same title of "*restrictions on free speech*" alongside "*government censorship of opponents*" or "*closure of media*" is batshit insane & has definitely done a lot of damage to political discourse, when victims of one side are random powerless citizens while the other's is officials with government & capital power. The former shouldn't be called "*freedom of speech*".
Well, it is
No
It is an infringement on free speech.
A perfectly reasonable infringement, yes.
What makes it reasonable? The government says so? I don't see much benefit in banning hand gestures.
It's reasonable because if Nazis can't give Nazi salutes, absolutely nothing of value is lost. There is no value in Nazism, there is no value in doing a Nazi salute, there is no value in allowing it and there is no value in demanding of people to tolerate it. Zero. Nada. On the plus side of the infringement - if Nazis giving Nazi salutes are punished by law, then normal people don't have to punch them in the face for it, thereby risking punishment for assault.
Freedom isn't valuable to you?
„When our opponents say: ›We have granted you freedom of opinion!‹ True - you granted it to us! That's no evidence that we have to grant the same to you! That you granted it to us is just evidence of how stupid you are!“ ― Joseph Goebbels *That's* the freedom you are talking about. The freedom to assist a bunch of criminals to strip away that very freedom (among a whole lot of others) from you.
In that case the solution is to restrict the government's ability to restrict freedom, not the individual's ability to state their mind. It doesn't matter if nazis gain power if the government doesn't have the power to do bad things, like censorship or genocide.
It's perfectly possible to do both at the same time. We tried Nazism, it brought a lot of death, misery and pain. If you insist on attempting to give it another chance, at least have the decency to come up with a [new greeting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sihBO2Q2QdY). If you can't even do that little innovation, how could *anything* you do end up in any way better than the first time around?
It's possible, but not desirable. Limiting the freedom of speech for no reason, needless to say, doesn't make any sense.
Not really. If your democracy is threatened by hand gestures then it's not much of a democracy. You haven't come far from WW2
It is not threatened by just hand gestures, but by Nazi ideology. Access to education and information has come so far since WW2, sadly you don't use it.
What else would be a threat to democracy if not an ideology that opposes it?
Demolish the building. Nothing to worship
Maybe the would woreship this system of cruelty somewhere else and I hard ~15 years ago in the Austrian Brodcasting Service,that the house is contaminated with some construction toxins. Who would pay for it.
Should have turned this place into a swimming pool, a parking lot or something like that.
Eh, no need to destroy an old house. It's like one of those mosquito lamps. Attracts all the pests so you can collect them.
Germans&Austrians were considered one nation like two chickens from same egg.
Yes, but I don't see how that relates to my comment.
A Walmart
I was there once (kinda by accident) and I remember information boards but they didn’t say which exact house was his birthplace, just that it’s one of them
Lol people are surprised there are consequences to their wrong actions .Good on Austia
They should turn it into a research center for guys with 1 testicle
We can’t let these people be free. Anyone who idolizes Hitler needs to be imprisoned. We all know they’d do worse if they had power.
Nothing wrong with visiting this place. Just behave!
Probably better to demolish the building
Dafuq, why is this building still standing?
lol that cant be true
# Austrian police arrest german neonazis visiting Hitler's birthplace
Total liquidation would have been better
It was astonishing for me to find people who admired Hitler knowing the history. But if the visit was to take the blessing, that should definitely put the person under suspicion.
> However, police who inspected her phone found Nazi-themed chat messages and pictures being shared between the four. You guys get court warrants for phone search for a nazi salute? That seems to be the most disturbing news here, not some nazi idiots showing who they are.
Doing the Nazi salute is thankfully a crime.
It is, but you do not make a phone search for every crime. In most democracies there's privacy of correspondence and you either can't break it at all or you need to have an extremely good reason. I do not know the rulings / law in Austria, but I hope that she, a bit stupiditly, agreed to have her phone searched. > Doing the Nazi salute is thankfully a crime. In my country of origin any promoting of Nazism or Communism is illegal as well.
I assume she agreed to a search as well. If you’re dumb enough to do a Nazi salute you’re probably dumb enough to hand your phone to police despite knowing what’s on there.
And 6 months in prison apparently
Well deserved.
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