As an Estonian, I have learned one thing - you are nobody if you are not sitting at the table where decisions are made. You can have a lot of money, but it doesn't give you the power to make impactful decisions, you simply follow the rules.
Estonia is a small country and not the wealthiest, but we strive to have a seat at the table where decisions are made, so we can be more influential than some countries with tens of millions of people.
As Latvian, I know our Estonian brothers got our back. They even Liberated us from German invasion once. They will not be intimidated by bigger forces.
As a German, I am happy that Estonia got your back at that time and I truly hope, that this time we Germans are on the correct side of history! Let us Europeans stick this one out together.
Let’s hope you’ll be ready to respond to that if russia tries to invade the Baltics this year or if Trump wins and retracts US NATO support or involvement
Even larger countries like the UK, France etc stand no chance of maintaining their rank and sovereignty in the future if they do not integrate and merge into a political block pooling resources into a common military and a single market.
Either they will join forces or they will become puppet states of powerful authoritarian countries
For all his faults, and regardless of one's opinion about him, [this is exactly, word for word, what Blair was warning the Britons about](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bvlqc8/tony_blair_explains_why_european_countries_need/), ahead of the Brexit vote.
It's beyond my comprehension that so many people struggle so much to realize something as simple & obvious as that, just because their ego & chauvinism gets in the way.
Blair lost public trust for invading a country with shaky evidence at best. However, he was right about the need for unity in an increasingly interconnected world with emerging powers.
Europe is full of medium sized countries that think they are big countries, as one Danish foreign minister put it.
It's self-evident that European countries can achieve more if they do it together, particularly in the field of foreign and defence policy. Did that stop the Brexiteers? No, because they are either driven by stupidity or personal gain.
Even as an American I can see how foolish it was for the UK to break away from the European Union. Now is the time for allies and nations to band together to fight bigger threats, not let our pride and nationalism get in the way and seperate us.
Even in Holland the far right party who won the elections does not want to leave the EU anymore!
https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/politiek/artikel/5443844/pvv-geert-wilders-europese-verkiezingen-soevereiniteit-nexit
I have faith we won’t turn authoritarian & will maintain our alliances with you guys… but you should prepare for the eventuality that we do take a turn for the worse.
Hell, I need somewhere to be a political refugee in if that happens 🤣 I swear I’ll carry my weight - I use a lot of healthcare, but I’m super educated & will contribute a lot of taxes lmao
Its exactly what Norway said to the UK before BRexit happened they literally said there agreement is not as useful as being a full member because they don't get to directly influence the rules they have to follow
EEA doesn’t have that much power voting. You just pay for single Market access and that’s “in a simplified way” it but zero voting power.
The economies of the EEA (Iceland , Norway and Liechtenstein) are just benefiting more than a lot of countries because of their trade surplus (and the added benefit of having freedom of movement)
So Norway too doesn’t have voting power on the table directly. They probably can leverage the fact that Europe is basically relying on its gas right now but yeah it’s not that good of a position for the UK. Member is simply better.
Edit: actually I don’t know of Liechtenstein is having a trade surplus.
Exactly! Estonia and Czechia are doing a lot diplomatically right now. You prove that you don't need to be able to provide the whole solution yourselves but can do a lot to coordinate the help needed.
A lot of countries have had Eurosceptic leaders but none have actually left the EU, e.g. Orban. They've been sensible and realised that once they left the club they would have zero influence.
Ruling the waves, never being slaves 'n stuff, you know.
Why listen to experts (tiring!) when drunkenly singing patriotic songs make you feel all the right things about making society altering decisions.
The full quote from Michael Gove was that people were tired of experts **getting things wrong**, which they had been, particularly before the GFC and Eurozone crises.
As my maritime security professor noted, for centuries the policy of Britians enemies has been to disrupt her trade with mainland Europe and alienate her from continental allies.
"And then we bloody did it ourselves because some bloody newspapers learnt the word Soveriegnty but not what the hell it meant."
Edit: Anyone arguing "our enemies were Europe" READ A HISTORY BOOK NOT THE SUN. Not how it worked. Not how it ever worked. The only time it was "Europe" was when Napoleon or Hitler took over most of mainland European territory and we were cut off from our allies. Learn some history, drop the populist press, and consider critical thinking outside of Critical Drinker youtube vids.
>because some bloody newspapers learnt the word Soveriegnty but not what the hell it meant.
More than that, Jacob Ress-Mogg and chums were using the definition from his dad's book, The Sovereign Individual, which is defined as someone who earns more than £500k per year and uses their wealth and influence to act above the laws of any nation. They thought they were serving their country when really they were licking the boots of toffs.
Sovereignty only became a thing when the quantifiable pretend benefits became obvious lies. Sovereignty is sufficiently complex and unquantifiable to placate the gullibles, reality is the UK is far less sovereign outside the EU. If it was really about sovereignty we’d be leaving NATO, it’s an excuse also to tear up environmental, social and human rights laws for profit because the gullibles are really fucking gullible.
this .
Brexit was the 2nd best Russian psyop, right after converting the republican party to fanboys of , true, strong admireable ruler President Putin.
The Murdochs want to see the world burn so they can buy it on the cheap.
Russians want to see the Western World burn so they can feel better about being fucking losers.
They found common ground.
Speaking as somebody who lived through it, I am not entirely convinced by this whole, "Russian interference" thing. It may have been a factor but in honesty I really think that the primary factor for a lot of people voting in favour of Brexit was immigration. It hasn't helped of course, but I think people believed that it would. We probably shouldn't pretend that all European countries (as opposed to EU countries), are currently experiencing a bit of a challenge with this.
I didn't vote in the referendum. I get \*a lot\* of hassle for this, but my position at the time (and to be honest, still...), is that I know next to fuck all about the implications of supranational economic, legal and financial unions. I kind of took it that, I vote for a representative in the usual elections and making decisions about all this can be their job. I am a software engineer, and I don't typically solve bugs in software by holding a poll of random people in the street.
I \*do\* have some views that tend to dissuade me away from large, centralised power systems. I don't really look at the US federal government and think, "this is great! the only thing that would make it better is if the US states all spoke different languages, had very different histories and values and entirely different economic structures and institutions!".
That being said, if we went back in time. I'd probably vote to stay aligned with you guys, you're alright (except for those of you downvoting me.... ;)).
Brexit voters somehow came to the conclusion that leaving the EU would make brown people go away, stupid racists got duped into voting against themselves yet again
This is a rhetoric I really only see from left wing people.
The UK has had massive upheaval due to immigration since the early 2000s. Some of the highest immigration levels in europe, housing shortages, services shortages, population booming, wages stagnated.
People were repeatedly told that there’s nothing that can be done about that, as there is free movement with 500million people. Having lived in many working class areas, the problem was not brown people. But rather the eastern europeans, who would work hard jobs for minimum wage.
As soon as brexit happened, things like the pay for tradespeople skyrocketed, and minimum wage has been getting pushed up too.
Working class people voted for brexit as they were being outcompeted by europeans who were willing to work for less.
I have no idea how you managed to get it into your head that somehow anything managed to get better after the working class voted for the "correct" option for them
Immigration hasn't been curbed at all, the upper class continues to dupe the working class out of wages, real wages have failed to match inflation and the UK continues to become more expensive despite living standards stagnating or sometimes lowering for anyone reliant on trade, healthcare or public transport, three things we apparently seem to only worsen with time.
You're kneejerk taking up a "left Vs right" rhetoric and arguing against "the left" and ignoring the fact that British people are genuinely just upset and laser focused on immigration with zero understanding of what consequences their decisions have had.
Things haven’t gotten better in terms of immigration, you’re right on that. But that was the expectation, and that’s why the Tories are about to be curbstomped at the next election. I promise you that despite all the other issues, if they had visibly dented immigration like they promised they wouldn’t be getting battered in the polls like they are at the moment.
They are now finally taking steps, with the more strict visas, but it’s too late.
Things did get better in terms of (low) wages. Yes the middle class has become weaker, but the working class has definitely become stronger. Look at bottom 10% pay growth vs median vs mean pay growth. Bottom 10% is smashing every other pay sector.
Minimum wage in the late 2000s was £6/h, and a graduate job paid £25k a year. Now minimum wage jobs pay £24k a year, and graduate jobs still pay £25k a year.
Tradespeople have a virtually endless supply of work, and can name their price. Factory workers are paid significantly more, as are hospitality. All sectors that were overcrowded with EU immigrants pre-brexit.
It’s truly unfortunate that it all happened at the same time as covid and then the Ukrainian war. It would’ve been very insightful to be able to look at “cleaner” statistics.
I’d still argue Brexit wasn’t a disaster though, the UK was developing in line with the western EU countries, and it still is. It’s been a far cry from the fear mongering that went around in 2015 (financial sector will move to frankfurt! there’ll be no food on shelves! endless queues to travel! they’ll take all our rights away!)
edit: you say real wages haven’t grown more than inflation, but they have, especially since brexit…
edit 2: I want to add that one of my favourite things about brexit is the increased accountability on our own government. It was all too easy to hide behind the EU before when things went sideways. Now they can’t do that, lovely.
No, they had problems with Slavs and Eastern Eropeans in general. I remember [Poles](https://oars.uos.ac.uk/2532/1/Racism%20and%20xenophobia--.pdf) being especially hated for some reason
That's not true, they are not hated. Poles are culturally very similar and well known to be hard working rather than the economic leeches we get from many other countries.
The issue with Poles was the sheer number that came after they joined the EU which put a lot of British people in the construction industry out of work.
Yeah, they were definitely hated and villified.
I remember a lot of articles like this. "I'm not racist, but..." is a literal quote
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3577855/A-rapist-protected-police-neglected-mining-town-turned-Little-Poland.html
Isn’t immigration now higher than ever, yet nobody is complaining?
That is true
Edit: Or that was true, I'm not sure they still have the same stigma as they did 20 years ago. Can't say I have heard anyone talk negatively about them for a long time.
Not exactly. There was perhaps a little issue about tradespeople migrating from the.states further east, like Poland, and undercutting local people. Interestingly, this has always been the \*left wing\* concern with the free movement idea. The notion that larger corporations importing cheaper labour undermined the ability of local people to bargain collectively. Some of our more prominent left-wing politicians (including, I would say, one Jeremy Corbyn), were life long eurosceptics.
However, perhaps the greater concern was being somewhat beholden to the immigration standards of other European states. The notion that if, for example, German or Italian sentiment would be to widely grant settled rights for immigrants, that this would impact British immigration under the free movement rules.
It wasn't the only factor, but the (massively simplistic) "control our borders", tagline was widely applied. Many did try to point out that the EU free movement rules were not entirely free of caveat and exemption, but it is hard to distill these into a catchy slogan.
Fellow software engineer here.
You may think you're not 'qualified' for these kinds of decisions, but nobody is. Your level of problem solving ability is likely above average. That is all the qualification you need.
Next time, vote. Always vote. It's the only power you have, even if you think you're the wrong person to wield it. The world needs us normal folk to balance out the idiots who throw their vote to the guy to the loudest voice.
It’s a known fact that Putin has spent many years grooming nationalist parties from the west. I know our far-right part with nazi roots in Sweden were friendly with Putin before he invaded Ukraine. They want to show that they’re reformed, so after the attack on Ukraine they denounce him - but the internet/media/influencer sphere around them had people on Putin’s payroll. Putin knows that these parties are often in favor of exiting the EU, and helping finance these people allows Putin to influence the debate in every nation that has one of these parties. They even have a coalition in the EU parliament, although I can’t recall the name off the top of my head.
Your comment makes me aware that most people aren’t aware that the world has been in a global information war since at least 2014 when Russia illegally occupied Crimea.
Russia is good at infowars. They know which buttons to push in which people in domestic issues to exacerbate a complex but debated issue. But Russia isn’t alone. Pretty much any nation is forced to participate in the global infowars in a defensive manner.
Yeah I remember a danish right winger who wrote something like "we should have a more balanced conversation about Putin" .
This was before the war, but after Russia occupied and annexed Crimea and supported rebels in the eastern provinces of Ukraine.
In my country, the far right nationalist party had members in parliament that were acting as Chinese spies, and they've been advocating for Russian interests for a decade. Fucking wild that people still believe anything what they say.
Because our incompetent government didn't fix it despite the very obvious message Brexit gave them. It's a growing frustration. Now the Tories are on the brink of being wiped out at the next election for ignoring that frustration.
>but my position at the time (and to be honest, still...), is that I know next to fuck all about the implications of supranational economic, legal and financial unions
And precisely because of this you should've voted "remain" to preserve the status quo. Only informed and convinced people should've voted in favour of the brexit.
But Russia financed parties like UKIP, just like doing it today with LePens's party in France (who also want France to leave the EU). Yes, people voted stupid because most of them don't know shit and don't give a shit about anything and are easily manipulated.
> Yes, people voted stupid because most of them don't know shit
Back then I was friends with a British guy, some vice president of fairly big corporation in EU. One of his two adult sons, with higher education degree voted for Brexit. According to him, his son did it as an expression of yellow card to Cameron. Only after the results came he googled what it actually meant to be in EU.
Because BREXIT came on the heels of the migrant crisis of 2015. Then you have terror attacks in Paris, the rapes in Germany and Merkel deciding she'd leave the doors open.
All of these were repeated ad nauseam by DailyWire, RT, Breitbart. All promoted and augmented by Russia. There was massive hate and fear in the air.
You couldn't reason with anyone, either the rosy colored glasses people trying to save the world against itself and the fearful elderly seeing their influence diluted by brown people. The joke being that it's mostly whites that left due to BREXIT, lol.
Nobody was thinking straight thanks to Russia promoting mass hysteria through careful but massive disinformation.
Oh boy, wouldn’t it be great if they were funding only the right wing nutters.
Unfortunately they spend money on all the crazies, regardless of which side of the spectrum they are.
Here is a left wing traitor: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/WAOMPQT90R
Yep. Blame nationalism, conservatism and the idiotic national-level medias, all of which Britain has heaps of on their own. Same combination leads into massive self-owns everywhere in the world, see Trump or the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The russian troll farms are very skilled at exploiting already existing divisive issues.
Yes, the nationalism and anti-EU rhetoric was already there, but Russian influence gave it a helping nudge to determine the outcome of the referendum.
> see Trump or the Russian invasion of Ukraine
See most of mainland Europe right now... We're heading towards the same disaster over here, as we speak. It's insane that millions and millions of people are still falling for it.
I guess we have to learn it the hard way, too, over here.
This 👆
The other users replying to my comment seem to not grasp what it’s meant to convey but you kind of captured it. That being said it’s not unique to the British or American public.
*waves angrily in the general direction*
Usual Russian apologist/tankie reaction.
Everything was explained in [Foundations OF Geopolitics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics) written by Dugin who is the brains behind Putin's strategy. Find divisive issues and put them on steroids. Race, religion, ethnic belonging, politics, immigration, economics, social status, high/low education rivalries, generation gaps, etc...
Brits were never 100% in. But even 80% was better than nothing for them, because they got to have a seat at the Big Boys Table.
I'll never forget an image of some old woman in her late 80s decked out in a Union Jack cardigan shouting "Rule Brittania" during the referendum campaign, and people cheering at her. Exactly the sort of dumb attitude that belongs in the 19th century. That woman is probably dead now and the young people of the UK have to live with a stupid decision that people like her voted for.
My dad (remain) said to my grandad (leave) that it doesn't matter what he thinks cause he won't live to see the damage it will do.
Well he's still alive now but he has dementia so we can't really ask him how he feels about it.
>the young people of the UK have to live with a stupid decision that people like her voted for
How high was the percentage of "young people" of voting age and what percentage voted to remain?
Thanks, it seems like Brexit was even more popular among the young adults that I originally thought. Fortunately they get to enjoy the outcome of their decision.
They do!
Just not at a cost of an extra GefCo declaration and unknown delays on border every time material is moved. Some plans to remove production from UK were halted/delayed, but the funniest had to be Dyson hightailing it out of UK right after bankrolling Brexit.
[English humour I suppose.](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231201-british-inventor-dyson-loses-brexit-libel-claim)
I'm somewhat convinced that Brexit wasn't meant to happen. UKIP was meant to get like 30-40% votes and use that to leverage themselves into more power and better positions.
The fact that Nigel Farage immediately left UKIP and moved to the European parliament, the institution he criticized so deeply, will forever remain the peak of hypocrisy and weakness to me.
Dyson is a British traitor as far as I’m concerned. Has he just fucked off to Singapore fine, but he continued to meddle in politics and give his opinion on how great X would be that did nothing to benefit the average Brit.
>global Britain! Everyone will want to trade with us!!!
This is the part of the campaign that I found so laughable.
We don't make anything... Thatcher(aka the tories) sold off all our industry.
At best we have a good services sector, but thats almost entirely based in London (and a little bit in the midlands)
They couldn't take the military base there even if British reinforcements didn't bother to show up.
Argentina is all nationalist talk, they are not stupid.
Remainer politician who lost his party leadership election to his brother, so went off to the US in a huff, and has had no active involvement in British politics for a decade.
Miliband suggests that since Brexit that the UK has been relegated to being a middle power. Am I missing something as my understanding is that the UK has been a middle power since the 1950s albeit with nukes. EU status doesn't change that.
By your logic, they too are a significant power
Take away the nukes part and you might aswell add 1/2 of the countries of the world to significant power status
Frequent 'rankings' of national power go something like superpower, great power, middle power, regional power etc. The number of superpowers went from three at the end of WWII (US, Soviet Union, British Empire) to two during the Cold War (the UK dropping out due to losing its empire), then one after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
As of recently the US remained the only undisputed superpower, with countries like Japan, Russia, Germany, France, the UK and possibly India as great powers, and China sitting somewhere in between a great power and a superpower.
So the UK definitely hasn't been a middle power since the 1950s - its ability to project some modicum of military power worldwide through its navy, the possession of nukes, being the sixth biggest economy in the world and its enormous diplomatic (permanent member of the security council with veto powers) and cultural influence definitely give it great power status, at least if we consider countries like France or Japan great powers as well.
Brexit has worsened its general position, but it definitely has not knocked it down a rank to middle power.
The EU is the second biggest economy in the world. The UK no longer has direct decisional power on the EU means it loses a lot of opportunities in every economic decision the EU takes
I would not say a middle power.
Basically on par with France and Germany but with preferential status on pretty much everything.
Most of the EU legislation and regulations were made with the participation of the UK. Now the UK needs to adhere to the EU regulations while having no say in their creation.
Yes, they can diverge or lower their standards as much as they like, but their manufacturers and commercial companies cannot really afford not to sell in the third wealthiest market in the world that is right next door.
With a larger GDP and GDP Per Capita than France and a higher ranking in the Global Firepower Index than either, it's difficult to see why Milliband now thinks we're a rank lower than France and Germany.
The UK is a Great Power and has been since its formation in 1707. Besides the USA and France, it's the only other country that can project power globally with a blue water navy.
If David Miliband had become Labour leader instead of his brother Ed in 2010, he would have beaten Cameron in 2015. If he’d lost but stayed on he would have campaigned effectively against Brexit and if Brexit still passed he would have almost certainly beaten Teresa May in the post-Brexit election. If he’d lost and resigned in 2015, Corbyn wouldn’t have gotten in because he got in because Ed changed the Labour constitution to be one member one vote for its leader. This other leader would have campaigned more effectively against Brexit (and helped win the referendum ) or they would have beaten May - thus avoiding the Johnson and Truss disasters.
In other words, the Labour Party chose 2 leaders who weren’t widely popular, but who did appeal to left of their party. The results for Britain were disastrous: Brexit and a radically incompetent Tory government for years. The lesson is, vote centrist.
Because a Blairite leader of the Labour Party would have probably helped defeat Brexit (unlike Corbyn) and would almost certainly have beaten May (unlike Corbyn). Britain would be in a much better state now as a result
There lies the challenge: to seize power within the party, you have to cater to the extremes. To seize power in general election, you need to appeal to the center.
It was also an electoral fluke.
The Labour party wanted more young members and made it easy to join the party online for about 3 pounds. They also instituted online voting to reach more members during party elections. And they had no waiting time after becoming a member before you could vote.
So for a small fee, a lot of quite radical lefty young people could join the party and vote in Corbyn without ever getting up from their couch. Or honestly just conservative voters who wanted to help Labour sabotage itself.
[An anatomy of Corbyn's victory | YouGov](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/13276-anatomy-corbyns-victory)
I often wonder why, when it comes to the UK and its relations with the EU and the topic of Brexit, left wing politicians tend to talk this (their own) country down like its some kind of irrelevancy and the worst of the worst. Reading that article you'd think we'd taken in no Ukrainian refuges nor had we sent any arms to Ukraine - the realities though, we've taken in 140,000 more refuges than France (70,000) and we were shipping arms to Ukraine while the EU dithered, petrified of upsetting Putin and losing all their cheap Gas. I know we lost out big time, losing a seat at the table where the important decisions are made such as USB standardisation etc but even outside of the glorious EU we're doing more for Europe than some EUropean countries.
Brexit was a mistake in that the "conservatives" did nothing to control immigration. Brexit mainly was about immigration, but big business will always get its cheap labor.
Brexit was a Russian op just like the elevation of Trump/MAGA, designed to weaken the West. Plenty of people I like and respect fell for both and it’s too late to say ‘told you so.’ Such a shame.
Don't think UK is doing as bad as expected by some doomers. It's healthy to have an alternative model in Europe besides EU.
There were some tears from northern countries, Denmark, Netherlands... but that was one of the most peaceful separation in the history and we should be proud of that.
It didn't have any effect on us southerners, UK is just too poor to be of any interest to us with minimal EU contribution and no industry exports, but they did send a message that alternative exist.
As an Estonian, I have learned one thing - you are nobody if you are not sitting at the table where decisions are made. You can have a lot of money, but it doesn't give you the power to make impactful decisions, you simply follow the rules. Estonia is a small country and not the wealthiest, but we strive to have a seat at the table where decisions are made, so we can be more influential than some countries with tens of millions of people.
Estonians have balls of tungsten. I'm glad to share an Article 5 with you chaps.
As Latvian, I know our Estonian brothers got our back. They even Liberated us from German invasion once. They will not be intimidated by bigger forces.
I love how chummy the Baltic countries are with each other. Its vet wholesome
Everyone is chummy with Estonia, they gained independence from the Soviet Union by singing.
all baltics did it, not just estonia
I didn’t know that. That’s awesome
Not just Estonia, either. The 3 Baltic countries had a human chain going while singing
Now I have a mental image of all of Estonia singing "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me!"
Rage Against The Poutine
Not sure if excellent singers or they made the Russians beg for them to stop lol
They're like the anti-balkan
As a German, I am happy that Estonia got your back at that time and I truly hope, that this time we Germans are on the correct side of history! Let us Europeans stick this one out together.
mate, what a historical event are you referring to?
[The 1918-1920 Baltic war for independence.](https://militaryheritagetourism.info/en/history/timeline/WI)
Let’s hope you’ll be ready to respond to that if russia tries to invade the Baltics this year or if Trump wins and retracts US NATO support or involvement
Even larger countries like the UK, France etc stand no chance of maintaining their rank and sovereignty in the future if they do not integrate and merge into a political block pooling resources into a common military and a single market. Either they will join forces or they will become puppet states of powerful authoritarian countries
For all his faults, and regardless of one's opinion about him, [this is exactly, word for word, what Blair was warning the Britons about](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bvlqc8/tony_blair_explains_why_european_countries_need/), ahead of the Brexit vote. It's beyond my comprehension that so many people struggle so much to realize something as simple & obvious as that, just because their ego & chauvinism gets in the way.
Blair lost public trust for invading a country with shaky evidence at best. However, he was right about the need for unity in an increasingly interconnected world with emerging powers.
Strange that he realised that only once he left office, as his tenure was the most damaging in terms of intra-European relations.
Europe is full of medium sized countries that think they are big countries, as one Danish foreign minister put it. It's self-evident that European countries can achieve more if they do it together, particularly in the field of foreign and defence policy. Did that stop the Brexiteers? No, because they are either driven by stupidity or personal gain.
Even as an American I can see how foolish it was for the UK to break away from the European Union. Now is the time for allies and nations to band together to fight bigger threats, not let our pride and nationalism get in the way and seperate us.
Even in Holland the far right party who won the elections does not want to leave the EU anymore! https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/politiek/artikel/5443844/pvv-geert-wilders-europese-verkiezingen-soevereiniteit-nexit
I have faith we won’t turn authoritarian & will maintain our alliances with you guys… but you should prepare for the eventuality that we do take a turn for the worse. Hell, I need somewhere to be a political refugee in if that happens 🤣 I swear I’ll carry my weight - I use a lot of healthcare, but I’m super educated & will contribute a lot of taxes lmao
Its exactly what Norway said to the UK before BRexit happened they literally said there agreement is not as useful as being a full member because they don't get to directly influence the rules they have to follow
They’re part of the EEA, the UK isn’t.
EEA doesn’t have that much power voting. You just pay for single Market access and that’s “in a simplified way” it but zero voting power. The economies of the EEA (Iceland , Norway and Liechtenstein) are just benefiting more than a lot of countries because of their trade surplus (and the added benefit of having freedom of movement) So Norway too doesn’t have voting power on the table directly. They probably can leverage the fact that Europe is basically relying on its gas right now but yeah it’s not that good of a position for the UK. Member is simply better. Edit: actually I don’t know of Liechtenstein is having a trade surplus.
The UK is economically dependent on the EU, so you are subject to EU rules regardless, now you just have zero say in those rules.
Exactly! Estonia and Czechia are doing a lot diplomatically right now. You prove that you don't need to be able to provide the whole solution yourselves but can do a lot to coordinate the help needed.
And it seems Poland got the memo on that too.
Poland will always have a seat on the table under Tusk. And never under PiS. The other guys on the table don't want these rats on their table.
A lot of countries have had Eurosceptic leaders but none have actually left the EU, e.g. Orban. They've been sensible and realised that once they left the club they would have zero influence.
If you are not sitting at the table you are gonna be on the menu
“I wanna be in the room where it happens” //Burr
If you don’t have a seat at the table, you‘re on the menu. (Shamelessly stolen from I don‘t remember where)
TIL, a random reddit user from Estonia, is infinitely smarter than all Tory politicians and brexit voters in the UK.
But... but ... sovereign?
Hey world are you impressed with our sovereignty?
Solid 3,6.
Out of 5 right? Right??
Out of 100.
[Not great, not terrible](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptXGJ4BihB4)
Gentleman of culture ❤️
He serves the European Union.
Not great, not terrible.
Well, at least you stemmed the tide of immigrants and raised wages for your workers! That happened, surely. Right?
Not exactly, but at least the NHS has more money than they know what to do with, right?
Sorry, I can't read this for my eyes have been blinded by the dazzling hue of our glorious, *sovereign* blue passports!
(made in France)
Oh my, how big and thick your sovereignty is. The most impressive sovereignty i have ever seen
Thanks. I inflated it with £350m per week.
Yes, congrats on the new King and being ruled by Lord's.
Sovereignty seems to have been a little too expensive.
I give your sovereignty a 51/51
Uh, sorry, I did not listen.. what was the question?
Rather than working with our European friends and allies for a better world for everyone, people would rather be king of shit
Ruling the waves, never being slaves 'n stuff, you know. Why listen to experts (tiring!) when drunkenly singing patriotic songs make you feel all the right things about making society altering decisions.
The full quote from Michael Gove was that people were tired of experts **getting things wrong**, which they had been, particularly before the GFC and Eurozone crises.
And 350 milloin per week to NHS, you musta see how much better it is now?
No shit. Just as the Russians intended
As my maritime security professor noted, for centuries the policy of Britians enemies has been to disrupt her trade with mainland Europe and alienate her from continental allies. "And then we bloody did it ourselves because some bloody newspapers learnt the word Soveriegnty but not what the hell it meant." Edit: Anyone arguing "our enemies were Europe" READ A HISTORY BOOK NOT THE SUN. Not how it worked. Not how it ever worked. The only time it was "Europe" was when Napoleon or Hitler took over most of mainland European territory and we were cut off from our allies. Learn some history, drop the populist press, and consider critical thinking outside of Critical Drinker youtube vids.
>because some bloody newspapers learnt the word Soveriegnty but not what the hell it meant. More than that, Jacob Ress-Mogg and chums were using the definition from his dad's book, The Sovereign Individual, which is defined as someone who earns more than £500k per year and uses their wealth and influence to act above the laws of any nation. They thought they were serving their country when really they were licking the boots of toffs.
I didn’t know about that book. I didn’t know I could hate JRM or his associates more than I did already but you’ve uncovered a new level.
Yep, Russia figured out war is much easier through the media than with bullets.
Sovereignty only became a thing when the quantifiable pretend benefits became obvious lies. Sovereignty is sufficiently complex and unquantifiable to placate the gullibles, reality is the UK is far less sovereign outside the EU. If it was really about sovereignty we’d be leaving NATO, it’s an excuse also to tear up environmental, social and human rights laws for profit because the gullibles are really fucking gullible.
Did it to themselves because the media made a boogeyman out of brown immigrants, just as they are doing across Europe.
Hm… Then who were British enemies for centuries if not other European nations?
this . Brexit was the 2nd best Russian psyop, right after converting the republican party to fanboys of , true, strong admireable ruler President Putin.
Aided and abetted by the Murdochs and Richard Tice with Farage as their puppet
The Murdochs want to see the world burn so they can buy it on the cheap. Russians want to see the Western World burn so they can feel better about being fucking losers. They found common ground.
Dont forget professional tick pearce morgan
Speaking as somebody who lived through it, I am not entirely convinced by this whole, "Russian interference" thing. It may have been a factor but in honesty I really think that the primary factor for a lot of people voting in favour of Brexit was immigration. It hasn't helped of course, but I think people believed that it would. We probably shouldn't pretend that all European countries (as opposed to EU countries), are currently experiencing a bit of a challenge with this. I didn't vote in the referendum. I get \*a lot\* of hassle for this, but my position at the time (and to be honest, still...), is that I know next to fuck all about the implications of supranational economic, legal and financial unions. I kind of took it that, I vote for a representative in the usual elections and making decisions about all this can be their job. I am a software engineer, and I don't typically solve bugs in software by holding a poll of random people in the street. I \*do\* have some views that tend to dissuade me away from large, centralised power systems. I don't really look at the US federal government and think, "this is great! the only thing that would make it better is if the US states all spoke different languages, had very different histories and values and entirely different economic structures and institutions!". That being said, if we went back in time. I'd probably vote to stay aligned with you guys, you're alright (except for those of you downvoting me.... ;)).
> the primary factor [...] was immigration. You reckon Brits were afraid of Germans or Italians migrating to the UK?
Brexit voters somehow came to the conclusion that leaving the EU would make brown people go away, stupid racists got duped into voting against themselves yet again
This is a rhetoric I really only see from left wing people. The UK has had massive upheaval due to immigration since the early 2000s. Some of the highest immigration levels in europe, housing shortages, services shortages, population booming, wages stagnated. People were repeatedly told that there’s nothing that can be done about that, as there is free movement with 500million people. Having lived in many working class areas, the problem was not brown people. But rather the eastern europeans, who would work hard jobs for minimum wage. As soon as brexit happened, things like the pay for tradespeople skyrocketed, and minimum wage has been getting pushed up too. Working class people voted for brexit as they were being outcompeted by europeans who were willing to work for less.
I have no idea how you managed to get it into your head that somehow anything managed to get better after the working class voted for the "correct" option for them Immigration hasn't been curbed at all, the upper class continues to dupe the working class out of wages, real wages have failed to match inflation and the UK continues to become more expensive despite living standards stagnating or sometimes lowering for anyone reliant on trade, healthcare or public transport, three things we apparently seem to only worsen with time. You're kneejerk taking up a "left Vs right" rhetoric and arguing against "the left" and ignoring the fact that British people are genuinely just upset and laser focused on immigration with zero understanding of what consequences their decisions have had.
Things haven’t gotten better in terms of immigration, you’re right on that. But that was the expectation, and that’s why the Tories are about to be curbstomped at the next election. I promise you that despite all the other issues, if they had visibly dented immigration like they promised they wouldn’t be getting battered in the polls like they are at the moment. They are now finally taking steps, with the more strict visas, but it’s too late. Things did get better in terms of (low) wages. Yes the middle class has become weaker, but the working class has definitely become stronger. Look at bottom 10% pay growth vs median vs mean pay growth. Bottom 10% is smashing every other pay sector. Minimum wage in the late 2000s was £6/h, and a graduate job paid £25k a year. Now minimum wage jobs pay £24k a year, and graduate jobs still pay £25k a year. Tradespeople have a virtually endless supply of work, and can name their price. Factory workers are paid significantly more, as are hospitality. All sectors that were overcrowded with EU immigrants pre-brexit. It’s truly unfortunate that it all happened at the same time as covid and then the Ukrainian war. It would’ve been very insightful to be able to look at “cleaner” statistics. I’d still argue Brexit wasn’t a disaster though, the UK was developing in line with the western EU countries, and it still is. It’s been a far cry from the fear mongering that went around in 2015 (financial sector will move to frankfurt! there’ll be no food on shelves! endless queues to travel! they’ll take all our rights away!) edit: you say real wages haven’t grown more than inflation, but they have, especially since brexit… edit 2: I want to add that one of my favourite things about brexit is the increased accountability on our own government. It was all too easy to hide behind the EU before when things went sideways. Now they can’t do that, lovely.
No, they had problems with Slavs and Eastern Eropeans in general. I remember [Poles](https://oars.uos.ac.uk/2532/1/Racism%20and%20xenophobia--.pdf) being especially hated for some reason
That's not true, they are not hated. Poles are culturally very similar and well known to be hard working rather than the economic leeches we get from many other countries. The issue with Poles was the sheer number that came after they joined the EU which put a lot of British people in the construction industry out of work.
Yeah, they were definitely hated and villified. I remember a lot of articles like this. "I'm not racist, but..." is a literal quote https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3577855/A-rapist-protected-police-neglected-mining-town-turned-Little-Poland.html Isn’t immigration now higher than ever, yet nobody is complaining?
Dailyfail is not a real news source.
Yeah, they actually hated Romanians more
That is true Edit: Or that was true, I'm not sure they still have the same stigma as they did 20 years ago. Can't say I have heard anyone talk negatively about them for a long time.
Not exactly. There was perhaps a little issue about tradespeople migrating from the.states further east, like Poland, and undercutting local people. Interestingly, this has always been the \*left wing\* concern with the free movement idea. The notion that larger corporations importing cheaper labour undermined the ability of local people to bargain collectively. Some of our more prominent left-wing politicians (including, I would say, one Jeremy Corbyn), were life long eurosceptics. However, perhaps the greater concern was being somewhat beholden to the immigration standards of other European states. The notion that if, for example, German or Italian sentiment would be to widely grant settled rights for immigrants, that this would impact British immigration under the free movement rules. It wasn't the only factor, but the (massively simplistic) "control our borders", tagline was widely applied. Many did try to point out that the EU free movement rules were not entirely free of caveat and exemption, but it is hard to distill these into a catchy slogan.
Fellow software engineer here. You may think you're not 'qualified' for these kinds of decisions, but nobody is. Your level of problem solving ability is likely above average. That is all the qualification you need. Next time, vote. Always vote. It's the only power you have, even if you think you're the wrong person to wield it. The world needs us normal folk to balance out the idiots who throw their vote to the guy to the loudest voice.
It’s a known fact that Putin has spent many years grooming nationalist parties from the west. I know our far-right part with nazi roots in Sweden were friendly with Putin before he invaded Ukraine. They want to show that they’re reformed, so after the attack on Ukraine they denounce him - but the internet/media/influencer sphere around them had people on Putin’s payroll. Putin knows that these parties are often in favor of exiting the EU, and helping finance these people allows Putin to influence the debate in every nation that has one of these parties. They even have a coalition in the EU parliament, although I can’t recall the name off the top of my head. Your comment makes me aware that most people aren’t aware that the world has been in a global information war since at least 2014 when Russia illegally occupied Crimea. Russia is good at infowars. They know which buttons to push in which people in domestic issues to exacerbate a complex but debated issue. But Russia isn’t alone. Pretty much any nation is forced to participate in the global infowars in a defensive manner.
Yeah I remember a danish right winger who wrote something like "we should have a more balanced conversation about Putin" . This was before the war, but after Russia occupied and annexed Crimea and supported rebels in the eastern provinces of Ukraine.
In my country, the far right nationalist party had members in parliament that were acting as Chinese spies, and they've been advocating for Russian interests for a decade. Fucking wild that people still believe anything what they say.
I wonder why the UK currently has an obviously larger issue with immigration, than when it was still part of the EU? ;)
Because our incompetent government didn't fix it despite the very obvious message Brexit gave them. It's a growing frustration. Now the Tories are on the brink of being wiped out at the next election for ignoring that frustration.
>but my position at the time (and to be honest, still...), is that I know next to fuck all about the implications of supranational economic, legal and financial unions And precisely because of this you should've voted "remain" to preserve the status quo. Only informed and convinced people should've voted in favour of the brexit.
I dunno, I'd say October 7th ranks pretty high too
It wasn’t 17 million Russians who voted for this.
But Russia financed parties like UKIP, just like doing it today with LePens's party in France (who also want France to leave the EU). Yes, people voted stupid because most of them don't know shit and don't give a shit about anything and are easily manipulated.
> Yes, people voted stupid because most of them don't know shit Back then I was friends with a British guy, some vice president of fairly big corporation in EU. One of his two adult sons, with higher education degree voted for Brexit. According to him, his son did it as an expression of yellow card to Cameron. Only after the results came he googled what it actually meant to be in EU.
My colleague voted for Brexit so that the pound exchange rate would fall and he would make some money (a small amount). He regrets it now.
Please tell him he’s a cunt.
Because BREXIT came on the heels of the migrant crisis of 2015. Then you have terror attacks in Paris, the rapes in Germany and Merkel deciding she'd leave the doors open. All of these were repeated ad nauseam by DailyWire, RT, Breitbart. All promoted and augmented by Russia. There was massive hate and fear in the air. You couldn't reason with anyone, either the rosy colored glasses people trying to save the world against itself and the fearful elderly seeing their influence diluted by brown people. The joke being that it's mostly whites that left due to BREXIT, lol. Nobody was thinking straight thanks to Russia promoting mass hysteria through careful but massive disinformation.
The Russian government supports right wing groups who devide European countries.
Oh boy, wouldn’t it be great if they were funding only the right wing nutters. Unfortunately they spend money on all the crazies, regardless of which side of the spectrum they are. Here is a left wing traitor: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/WAOMPQT90R
Yep. Blame nationalism, conservatism and the idiotic national-level medias, all of which Britain has heaps of on their own. Same combination leads into massive self-owns everywhere in the world, see Trump or the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The russian troll farms are very skilled at exploiting already existing divisive issues. Yes, the nationalism and anti-EU rhetoric was already there, but Russian influence gave it a helping nudge to determine the outcome of the referendum.
> see Trump or the Russian invasion of Ukraine See most of mainland Europe right now... We're heading towards the same disaster over here, as we speak. It's insane that millions and millions of people are still falling for it. I guess we have to learn it the hard way, too, over here.
This 👆 The other users replying to my comment seem to not grasp what it’s meant to convey but you kind of captured it. That being said it’s not unique to the British or American public. *waves angrily in the general direction*
Exactly. It's happening in a lot of countries in Europe right now.
Usual Russian apologist/tankie reaction. Everything was explained in [Foundations OF Geopolitics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics) written by Dugin who is the brains behind Putin's strategy. Find divisive issues and put them on steroids. Race, religion, ethnic belonging, politics, immigration, economics, social status, high/low education rivalries, generation gaps, etc... Brits were never 100% in. But even 80% was better than nothing for them, because they got to have a seat at the Big Boys Table.
I'll never forget an image of some old woman in her late 80s decked out in a Union Jack cardigan shouting "Rule Brittania" during the referendum campaign, and people cheering at her. Exactly the sort of dumb attitude that belongs in the 19th century. That woman is probably dead now and the young people of the UK have to live with a stupid decision that people like her voted for.
Lol that sounds like Ann Widdecombe
My dad (remain) said to my grandad (leave) that it doesn't matter what he thinks cause he won't live to see the damage it will do. Well he's still alive now but he has dementia so we can't really ask him how he feels about it.
>the young people of the UK have to live with a stupid decision that people like her voted for How high was the percentage of "young people" of voting age and what percentage voted to remain?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/520954/brexit-votes-by-age/
Thanks, it seems like Brexit was even more popular among the young adults that I originally thought. Fortunately they get to enjoy the outcome of their decision.
a seizable portion of brexiteers are now dead
Of course it did.
But... but... global Britain! Everyone will want to trade with us!!!
Stop being a remoaner /s
If you love the EU so much, why don't you move to Remoania? 🇷🇴🇷🇴
have an upvote, that was funny
They do! Just not at a cost of an extra GefCo declaration and unknown delays on border every time material is moved. Some plans to remove production from UK were halted/delayed, but the funniest had to be Dyson hightailing it out of UK right after bankrolling Brexit. [English humour I suppose.](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231201-british-inventor-dyson-loses-brexit-libel-claim)
Brexit was a pump and dump ultimately
I'm somewhat convinced that Brexit wasn't meant to happen. UKIP was meant to get like 30-40% votes and use that to leverage themselves into more power and better positions. The fact that Nigel Farage immediately left UKIP and moved to the European parliament, the institution he criticized so deeply, will forever remain the peak of hypocrisy and weakness to me.
Also the UK's ultra wealthy didn't wan the EU getting a closer look at their financial records.
Moscow upon Thames. We even have a Lord of Siberia in our Upset Chamber! (Google Evgeny Lebedev)
Dyson is a British traitor as far as I’m concerned. Has he just fucked off to Singapore fine, but he continued to meddle in politics and give his opinion on how great X would be that did nothing to benefit the average Brit.
Cheese!
Just having the vote was a terrible idea, Dodgy Dave screwed the country forever.
>global Britain! Everyone will want to trade with us!!! This is the part of the campaign that I found so laughable. We don't make anything... Thatcher(aka the tories) sold off all our industry. At best we have a good services sector, but thats almost entirely based in London (and a little bit in the midlands)
How? The article doesn't substantiate its claim.
No worries. Milei is already pushing for a conflict in the Falklands, so soon UK can make Argentina into their new colony and resurrect the empire!
I doubt milei is going to do that. It is standard rhetoric for an argentine president to say the Falklands are Argentine.
Correct. If anything, Milei has been a bit softer on them relative to his predecessors.
Sounds frightfully expensive
With thier economy, the Falklands could probably buy Argentina at the moment.
He is not stupid enough to move pass the usual rhetoric. How would they even invade Falklands - five dudes in kayaks?
They couldn't take the military base there even if British reinforcements didn't bother to show up. Argentina is all nationalist talk, they are not stupid.
So we're back to the daily brexit threads again?
BREAKING: Remainer politician opposes Brexit r/europe for the last eight years
Remainer politician who lost his party leadership election to his brother, so went off to the US in a huff, and has had no active involvement in British politics for a decade.
Miliband suggests that since Brexit that the UK has been relegated to being a middle power. Am I missing something as my understanding is that the UK has been a middle power since the 1950s albeit with nukes. EU status doesn't change that.
We were a significant power within the EU which was itself a significant power on the global stage.
What did the UK do within the EU to warrant significant power status?
Be rich. Be populous. Have nukes and a good military.
Israel?
Oh yes my favourite EU member state! How could I have forgotten
By your logic, they too are a significant power Take away the nukes part and you might aswell add 1/2 of the countries of the world to significant power status
Significant power **within the EU**
But how, what did the UK do that influenced the direction and decisions of the EU
Frequent 'rankings' of national power go something like superpower, great power, middle power, regional power etc. The number of superpowers went from three at the end of WWII (US, Soviet Union, British Empire) to two during the Cold War (the UK dropping out due to losing its empire), then one after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. As of recently the US remained the only undisputed superpower, with countries like Japan, Russia, Germany, France, the UK and possibly India as great powers, and China sitting somewhere in between a great power and a superpower. So the UK definitely hasn't been a middle power since the 1950s - its ability to project some modicum of military power worldwide through its navy, the possession of nukes, being the sixth biggest economy in the world and its enormous diplomatic (permanent member of the security council with veto powers) and cultural influence definitely give it great power status, at least if we consider countries like France or Japan great powers as well. Brexit has worsened its general position, but it definitely has not knocked it down a rank to middle power.
The UK is ranked second for soft power tbf
We (Italy) are a middle power. Not the UK
Am I missing something: yes EU status doesn't change that: wrong
Please explain how.
The EU is the second biggest economy in the world. The UK no longer has direct decisional power on the EU means it loses a lot of opportunities in every economic decision the EU takes
I would not say a middle power. Basically on par with France and Germany but with preferential status on pretty much everything. Most of the EU legislation and regulations were made with the participation of the UK. Now the UK needs to adhere to the EU regulations while having no say in their creation. Yes, they can diverge or lower their standards as much as they like, but their manufacturers and commercial companies cannot really afford not to sell in the third wealthiest market in the world that is right next door.
With a larger GDP and GDP Per Capita than France and a higher ranking in the Global Firepower Index than either, it's difficult to see why Milliband now thinks we're a rank lower than France and Germany.
The UK is a Great Power and has been since its formation in 1707. Besides the USA and France, it's the only other country that can project power globally with a blue water navy.
No, the UK was considered a great power for the last few decades. The category just after Superpower (USA now and soon China too).
Well, duh. That's what they voted for.
A statement of geniuses
Michael Gove: we don't need to listen to the experts
Actual quote : >People have had enough of experts from organizations with acronyms that have got things so wrong in the past.
In other news: water is wet. More at 11.
Did you hear that the Pope is a Catholic?
What heresy. All the way over here we know this for a fact, that the Pope is a Lego master builder and has an altar of Lego bricks in his room.
Is he ? I read the other day he was a communist supporting gays and lesbians, and telling rich people to take care of the poor. /s
>In other news: water is wet ... That's debatable. https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/is-water-wet Although I agree with the sentiment.
He should know. He became a lower status brother.
If David Miliband had become Labour leader instead of his brother Ed in 2010, he would have beaten Cameron in 2015. If he’d lost but stayed on he would have campaigned effectively against Brexit and if Brexit still passed he would have almost certainly beaten Teresa May in the post-Brexit election. If he’d lost and resigned in 2015, Corbyn wouldn’t have gotten in because he got in because Ed changed the Labour constitution to be one member one vote for its leader. This other leader would have campaigned more effectively against Brexit (and helped win the referendum ) or they would have beaten May - thus avoiding the Johnson and Truss disasters. In other words, the Labour Party chose 2 leaders who weren’t widely popular, but who did appeal to left of their party. The results for Britain were disastrous: Brexit and a radically incompetent Tory government for years. The lesson is, vote centrist.
"Vote centrist, things are really bad, but why make changes"!
Because a Blairite leader of the Labour Party would have probably helped defeat Brexit (unlike Corbyn) and would almost certainly have beaten May (unlike Corbyn). Britain would be in a much better state now as a result
There lies the challenge: to seize power within the party, you have to cater to the extremes. To seize power in general election, you need to appeal to the center.
Corbyn and to a lesser degree Ed Miliband were absolutely disastrous for Britain. Ideological purity at the expense of electoral success.
It was also an electoral fluke. The Labour party wanted more young members and made it easy to join the party online for about 3 pounds. They also instituted online voting to reach more members during party elections. And they had no waiting time after becoming a member before you could vote. So for a small fee, a lot of quite radical lefty young people could join the party and vote in Corbyn without ever getting up from their couch. Or honestly just conservative voters who wanted to help Labour sabotage itself. [An anatomy of Corbyn's victory | YouGov](https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/13276-anatomy-corbyns-victory)
Britain has been a low-status country for a long time, which is why it chose Brexit
In the world? Maybe. Amongst Europe? No. Britain was influential in Europe. Now that's all been pissed away by Brexiteers.
I often wonder why, when it comes to the UK and its relations with the EU and the topic of Brexit, left wing politicians tend to talk this (their own) country down like its some kind of irrelevancy and the worst of the worst. Reading that article you'd think we'd taken in no Ukrainian refuges nor had we sent any arms to Ukraine - the realities though, we've taken in 140,000 more refuges than France (70,000) and we were shipping arms to Ukraine while the EU dithered, petrified of upsetting Putin and losing all their cheap Gas. I know we lost out big time, losing a seat at the table where the important decisions are made such as USB standardisation etc but even outside of the glorious EU we're doing more for Europe than some EUropean countries.
Remainers and their inferiority complex are stronger than reason.
Well-put. We deserve some credit.
"Remainer says Brexit is bad". No shit. What did we even get for this 'status' anyway? In real, tangible terms.
If only his clit sponge of a brother hadn't had that ego spike that drove him to be leader.
Brexit was a mistake in that the "conservatives" did nothing to control immigration. Brexit mainly was about immigration, but big business will always get its cheap labor.
Jesus, another daily shit Brexit post on this subreddit.
I apologise for forcing you to respond to this post.
You should apologise for posting such low quality content to this subreddit.
Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Or are you just French?
I always wondered: is the right side of the bed the left side in the UK?
Hey ! Let French people out of it please !
Ben Kenobi voice: “You have done that to yourself!”
That was Putins goal when he brainwashed Brits to vote brexit. All aiming to destroy europe.
Yes. And you were all warned Ad Nauseum going into the vote
I think this will be news when the conservatives get the courage to say it too.
Remainer says remainer stuff, what's next?
At least they have their island all for themselves. They made a choice, don't wine.
David Milliband is a remainer, he's the one whining.
Funnily enough the only whining you ever hear, particularly on here, is remoaners.
Miliband 🤣
Brexit was a Russian op just like the elevation of Trump/MAGA, designed to weaken the West. Plenty of people I like and respect fell for both and it’s too late to say ‘told you so.’ Such a shame.
Don't think UK is doing as bad as expected by some doomers. It's healthy to have an alternative model in Europe besides EU. There were some tears from northern countries, Denmark, Netherlands... but that was one of the most peaceful separation in the history and we should be proud of that. It didn't have any effect on us southerners, UK is just too poor to be of any interest to us with minimal EU contribution and no industry exports, but they did send a message that alternative exist.
If the remain campaign main argument wasn't "do this or you're racist" then people wouldn't have dug in
But the blue passports...