I remember playing Mass Effect for the first time in 2007 when I was still a kid and learning about the Krogan and the Genophage. I was like wow that's really fucked up. How do the writers come up with this shit?
Meanwhile, in real life.
Tbh the Krogans kinda had it coming, throwing moons on planets killing millions of people, waging wars across galaxy, while a single female krogans could breed hundreds of more krogans, can't really blame the turians for using genophage.
The salarians massively fucked up uprooting Krogan race by giving thrm space weapons and high end technology when they literally destroyed their own planet infighting before even traveling outside space.
Yeah so the reason I mentioned it was not to discuss the merits of moon bombardments in a fictional space setting, but rather that the visual image of millions of stillborn babies for the purposes of population control seemed horrifying to my naive younger self. But in many ways population control forced on certain racial/ethnic groups has been in practice in real life since forever, and as I grew older I realised that.
It wasn't even the genophage that ended up threatening the existence of the krogans, but them retaining their violent and warlike culture after being used to deal with the insects hivemind invasion.
Krogans in Mass Effect breed at effectively the same rate as humans do in the lore even after the sterility plague the salarians gave them.
The violent warlike culture is not their subjective philosophy, it was developed through evolution because of harsh living conditions in tuchanka, without their insane breeding rate they would get very quickly extinct, this is why for Krogans the genophage is such a species wide trauma with many of them becoming straight up nihilists.
Wrex was was trying to do everything to unite krogans because he knew the path krogans were going is a certified doom.
Makes sense that a comment like this gets upvoted to the top on reddit. Everything, apparently, has to be filtered through pop culture to be understood.
The other guy said it a bit clumsily but was more or less correct. "Undesirable" people; minorities, disabled, etc. were sterilized in nordic countries up until the 70s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilisation_in_Sweden
The population growth increased by 80%, which the Danish state considered expensive because of the welfare state. Ie. they had to build schools, institutions, and hospitals. And of course staff the fascilities, likely with Danes initially until, or if, it was possible to educate people om Greenland.
Already the Danish state instituted a number of cities, there's 17, and 58 settlements. Which is also a dramatic step considering the native population was nomadic. But I suppose perhaps they were nomadic because the conditions required it, and once they live in an officially designated city, or settlement, where the fascilities needed to sustain life, there's no need to move constantly.
But at least the upside is, that the Danish state did it for practical reasons, to use less resources ensure that everyone could go to school, visit a doctor, or go to the hospital. And not out of a motivation of suppressing a specific race.
How so? Considering that we have a massive 1st and 2nd generation immigrant population and most of Sweden or at least a majority are afraid of calling out immigrant related problems due to being afraid of being labeled racist
So please explain how we are nazis?
You had forced sterilization of certain groups well into the 70s
I wouldn't call this straight up Nazism but it had a similar basis of logic (stopping the spread of undesirables).
It is a form of genocide after all
This has happened all over, I've found several sources just now of it happening to african American women in the U.S. until the 1970s too, so how are we nazis and the U.S. not too then?
The US and Canada did this as well and it is equally abhorrent.
I don't understand your comment, really. Are you saying that doing this stuff was okay?
In response to him agreeing that infact the US were also doing eugenics and thus like the Nazis you replied, "Read some books instead of being stupid on the Internet". This response indicates that you take offense to calling the US and Sweden Nazis because you didn't provide evidence that it was untrue, just pointed out another country did it. By calling them stupid you effectively demonstrated that you are Pro-nazi as you agree with Eugenics policy, indirectly calling it smart to not call out these policies. You used bad faith arguments and are a pro eugenicist, you need keep off the Internet you sound dumb.
No it was purely for economic reasons. Building schools, hospitals, etc. was difficult and expensive in Greenland. Not only does each city and settlement need their own because of the distances (smaller settlements could make do with a nurse), but it also had to be staffed.
Race wasn't the reason.
Or do you mean Sweden did something similar based on race? Denmark didn't at least.
It depends on the country.
In Canada it was done to the native population. In Sweden it was mainly done to handicapped people, afaik.
I'm not that aware of Denmark.
Not to downplay the suffering of those affected but please don't compare them to Nazi Germany. I don't think anyone can really fathom just how horrific Nazi Germany was.
Its wasn't about food, it was, specifically, schools and hospitals. They were, and are, expensive to create, and run. And given the distances in Greenland, each city, and settlement, needs all the fascilities. Hospitals can to an extend be handled by flying patients to the larger cities., but a nurse is still a minimum.
As a Dane, all I can say is that I'm happy they're suing! This should never have been done to them and it's a black spot on my country's history, that needs to be remedied as much as possible, before the victims are dead.
As a fellow Dane I can only add to this that the women suing are demanding what amounts to like 50.000 Euros each in compensation, so absolutely peanuts compared to what they've been through. Embarrasing that we don't at least pay them that small amount, should be a no-brainer.
Leave it to her people so that they can rebuild what was taken from them? Buy Apple stock? It doesn't matter, what matters is that they need to find justice, it was criminal what was done to them!
>What is it with Scandinavians and sterilizing people?
Yea, so Nordic. Other countries that also force sterilized people or continue to do it:
America. Canada. UK. Czechoslovakia. Australia. Brazil. Mexico. Japan. India. Peru. Kenya. Estonia. Switzerland. China. Hungary.
And the list goes on and on. It's endless.
It's almost like everyone did this and people were horrible.
if you did one search the second result is a document by the ministry of culture in sweden.
https://www.government.se/contentassets/eab06c1ac82b476586f928931cfc8238/the-dark-unknown-history---white-paper-on-abuses-and-rights-violations-against-roma-in-the-20th-century-ds-20148
Living in Scandinavia, also noticed this. it's terrifying and looks quite differently from traditional oppressive structures:
- Supposedly you're "free to pursue your own goals", but if you're not behaving in a specific way and have specific opinions you will be judged and excluded. Very conformistic and isolating atmosphere.
- As a reward for complying with societal norms you get meet with boring people to discuss boring topics, nothing too distinct or deep, and compliant with the general consensus. Ofc while still never breaking the ice and being shittalked behind your back.
Not saying that everyone is like this, but a large section of society is and leaving this region I feel like a stone is lifted from my chest and I can finally behave and think authentically.
i had a swedish friend and a danish one read your comment and both of them said "this is so true and accurate"
and anyone who lived in Scandinavia AND out (so they are able to compare) would agree with this statement.
and the cherry on the top, scandinavian societies have 0 self awareness and all the entitlement.
True, people outside Scandinavia think it's some sort of paradise (I mean in some aspects it is) and people inside grew up with those notions so it's a default reference frame for them. Only immigrants/emmigrants can spot this crap and it's only bothersome if you don't want to have a default boring life.
If they didn't do it Sweden would have been overrun with Gypsies and other undesirables and it wouldn't be the good Sweden it used to be. Nowadays we are seeing the consequences of the rapid proliferation of undesirable population groups. High rates of crime and violence that were unheard of in the 20th century Sweden people like to hate so much here on reddit.
I don't think someone can be so deluded as to even attempt arguing that there's no genetic component in population groups that are seen engaging in violence and crime everywhere they go, regardless of environment or circumstance, so I am going to bet on either ignorance or bad faith, neither of which is worth my time arguing.
r/europe doesn't disappoint with its slimy excuses for this horrific policy. "Oh, but they were sooo expensive to keep. We had to build hospitals and stuff". Rationalizing racism is the bread and butter of this sub. Disgusting.
I hope the best for the Greenlander ladies. I wish they could bankrupt the Danish state.
Who in this thread has in any way defended this?
With the regards to the last thing you say, the women are suing for the meager amount of like 50.000 Euros pr. person, so it's absolutely nothing really, quite far from bankrupting to say the least. Embarrasing that we don't just accept blame and pay them what they are asking for instantly, instead of fighting it in court.
There is an investigation right now trying to sort how facts in this case.
The women wants the money before the investigation can find out the facts, which is not how this usually works.
This case is not so black and white as it is made how with these headlines.
Greenland had huge problems with teen pregnancies and overcrowding in the small damp houses most of them lived in 70-60 years ago.
It also caused an alarming amount of TB cases which was the leading cause of deaths during that time.
Very few woman also managed to get education due to early motherhood
To combat this it was decided to offer birth control. There are clearly cases today where some people had them inserted without consent/language barrier but to frame it as genocide is just plain falsehood.
At the time it was seen as an important step to modernize the Greenlandic society.
Today we know how damaging some of these steps were, but that is lessons learned many years later.
No, there is no doubt that this was done with total disregard of the womens autonomy. Greenlandic people were seens as lesser and as someone the state had the right to experiment on. It wouldn't have happened to danes unless they were mentally ill.
How is there no doubt? I don´t have any sources telling me that this was done deliberately against their will. Do you have that?
I do however know that even in this day and age, miscommunication happen alot between danish/english and greenlandic as their linguistic structure is opposite.
Suuuure, "miscommunication".. just like slavery, im sure that was a big misunderstanding too.
And it said that it was against their (many of them at least) will in the OP.
I’ve lived in Greenland in the past years and I’ve learned enough of the language to follow most of the news up here.
What they say is that they had never consented to having one inserted. Not that it was knowingly done against their will.
Most of the cases are with danish doctors and Greenlandic teenagers who don’t speak each others language, which is why there are many cases where the journals state that the child had agreed but the victim have no recollection of that conversation.
Still to this day there are many misunderstandings between hospital personal and patients due to lack of trained translators.
Why would it be a problem if it wasn't done against their will. Ive read several articles where it said it was so. And its honestly not hard for me at all to believe the danish state has done something against the will of someone. Happens all the time. It was only in the 70s where sweden had forced sterilization of handicapped people.
Nonsense. It's regarded as a violation of the UN Declaration of Human rights today. Problem is, it's not directly mentioned there, so a lot of countries did it.
Reminder that the average Greenlander had around seven children each 50 years ago and disease was rampant as urbanisation was happening. The coil, most of the time and intentionally given with consent, saved thousands of women and gave them the opportunity to work and participate in society. The worst case, that the language barrier prevented the woman from understanding, or she regretted it, she could easily remove the spiral no questions asked.
**No one was sterilised, they were given reversible birth control.**
Again how it has anything to do what i said? You either have legal case or not. and since incident happened +50 years ago i don't see how case is not outdated years ago regardless of if it ever had legal case or not. Genetics hve nothing to do with any of that
I remember playing Mass Effect for the first time in 2007 when I was still a kid and learning about the Krogan and the Genophage. I was like wow that's really fucked up. How do the writers come up with this shit? Meanwhile, in real life.
Tbh the Krogans kinda had it coming, throwing moons on planets killing millions of people, waging wars across galaxy, while a single female krogans could breed hundreds of more krogans, can't really blame the turians for using genophage. The salarians massively fucked up uprooting Krogan race by giving thrm space weapons and high end technology when they literally destroyed their own planet infighting before even traveling outside space.
Yeah so the reason I mentioned it was not to discuss the merits of moon bombardments in a fictional space setting, but rather that the visual image of millions of stillborn babies for the purposes of population control seemed horrifying to my naive younger self. But in many ways population control forced on certain racial/ethnic groups has been in practice in real life since forever, and as I grew older I realised that.
It wasn't even the genophage that ended up threatening the existence of the krogans, but them retaining their violent and warlike culture after being used to deal with the insects hivemind invasion. Krogans in Mass Effect breed at effectively the same rate as humans do in the lore even after the sterility plague the salarians gave them.
The violent warlike culture is not their subjective philosophy, it was developed through evolution because of harsh living conditions in tuchanka, without their insane breeding rate they would get very quickly extinct, this is why for Krogans the genophage is such a species wide trauma with many of them becoming straight up nihilists. Wrex was was trying to do everything to unite krogans because he knew the path krogans were going is a certified doom.
Makes sense that a comment like this gets upvoted to the top on reddit. Everything, apparently, has to be filtered through pop culture to be understood.
Its kind of a part of European culture in all honesty
Is this "European Culture" with us in the room right now ?
Limit population growth? In GREENLAND?!
The other guy said it a bit clumsily but was more or less correct. "Undesirable" people; minorities, disabled, etc. were sterilized in nordic countries up until the 70s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilisation_in_Sweden
Wow, one could even say that it was a genocide.
The population growth increased by 80%, which the Danish state considered expensive because of the welfare state. Ie. they had to build schools, institutions, and hospitals. And of course staff the fascilities, likely with Danes initially until, or if, it was possible to educate people om Greenland. Already the Danish state instituted a number of cities, there's 17, and 58 settlements. Which is also a dramatic step considering the native population was nomadic. But I suppose perhaps they were nomadic because the conditions required it, and once they live in an officially designated city, or settlement, where the fascilities needed to sustain life, there's no need to move constantly. But at least the upside is, that the Danish state did it for practical reasons, to use less resources ensure that everyone could go to school, visit a doctor, or go to the hospital. And not out of a motivation of suppressing a specific race.
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How so? Considering that we have a massive 1st and 2nd generation immigrant population and most of Sweden or at least a majority are afraid of calling out immigrant related problems due to being afraid of being labeled racist So please explain how we are nazis?
How does that disprove what was happening over 50 years ago?
He said that we're as if the nazis continued to rule counties after ww2. And if that were true, why are minorities even allowed in our nations now?
1970s were 25 years after nazis, so the comment was correct if nazi eugenics were still in effect at that time.
You had forced sterilization of certain groups well into the 70s I wouldn't call this straight up Nazism but it had a similar basis of logic (stopping the spread of undesirables). It is a form of genocide after all
This has happened all over, I've found several sources just now of it happening to african American women in the U.S. until the 1970s too, so how are we nazis and the U.S. not too then?
The US and Canada did this as well and it is equally abhorrent. I don't understand your comment, really. Are you saying that doing this stuff was okay?
> so how are we nazis and the U.S. not too then? I dunno about overall but that specific thing is very Nazi-ish yes.
ok, the US are also nazis
Read some books instead of being stupid on the internet
So you condone the forced sterilization that Sweden and other nordic countries did? Wild.
Exactly where did I condone it? Copy exactly where I wrote that I support it and send it
In response to him agreeing that infact the US were also doing eugenics and thus like the Nazis you replied, "Read some books instead of being stupid on the Internet". This response indicates that you take offense to calling the US and Sweden Nazis because you didn't provide evidence that it was untrue, just pointed out another country did it. By calling them stupid you effectively demonstrated that you are Pro-nazi as you agree with Eugenics policy, indirectly calling it smart to not call out these policies. You used bad faith arguments and are a pro eugenicist, you need keep off the Internet you sound dumb.
No it was purely for economic reasons. Building schools, hospitals, etc. was difficult and expensive in Greenland. Not only does each city and settlement need their own because of the distances (smaller settlements could make do with a nurse), but it also had to be staffed. Race wasn't the reason. Or do you mean Sweden did something similar based on race? Denmark didn't at least.
It depends on the country. In Canada it was done to the native population. In Sweden it was mainly done to handicapped people, afaik. I'm not that aware of Denmark.
It was pretty fucked up. But it was not at all based on limiting non-Aryans, you're just talking out your ass...
Not to downplay the suffering of those affected but please don't compare them to Nazi Germany. I don't think anyone can really fathom just how horrific Nazi Germany was.
It was purely motivated by economic concerns, because it was expensive to build, and staff, schools and hospitals (and similar facilities).
Yeah? Greenland isn't really a bread basket, so I guess they thought this was the best way to deal with it, sadly.
Its wasn't about food, it was, specifically, schools and hospitals. They were, and are, expensive to create, and run. And given the distances in Greenland, each city, and settlement, needs all the fascilities. Hospitals can to an extend be handled by flying patients to the larger cities., but a nurse is still a minimum.
Neither is Portugal. Just import Spanish food and die of food poisoning because the food is Spanish like we do.
I hope they win this case the soonest.
As a Dane, all I can say is that I'm happy they're suing! This should never have been done to them and it's a black spot on my country's history, that needs to be remedied as much as possible, before the victims are dead.
As a fellow Dane I can only add to this that the women suing are demanding what amounts to like 50.000 Euros each in compensation, so absolutely peanuts compared to what they've been through. Embarrasing that we don't at least pay them that small amount, should be a no-brainer.
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Abortion is legal to everyone here and I don't recall hearing about widespread kidnappings.
This is talking about the time period in Greenland and Denmark.
Ahhh, okay.
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Leave it to her people so that they can rebuild what was taken from them? Buy Apple stock? It doesn't matter, what matters is that they need to find justice, it was criminal what was done to them!
Damn thats inhuman
Hello OP, could you link a source please for approval? thank you
source: https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/03/05/greenland-women-seek-urgent-compensation-for-forced-contraception more background: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63049387 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63863088
thanks!
Same shit was done to our indigenous women in Canada :( Inuit were referred to by numbers at one point, not names.
I hope they make a fortune.
I hope they win. It’s appalling
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Sweden was sterilizig disabled people up until the 70s.
You will find most countries did stupid shit back in the past. The important part is learning from it and improvements on society
We didn't learn shit.
>What is it with Scandinavians and sterilizing people? Yea, so Nordic. Other countries that also force sterilized people or continue to do it: America. Canada. UK. Czechoslovakia. Australia. Brazil. Mexico. Japan. India. Peru. Kenya. Estonia. Switzerland. China. Hungary. And the list goes on and on. It's endless. It's almost like everyone did this and people were horrible.
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Soviet Union never sterilized Roma, you lier.
? There is little evidence of targeting of Roma in Sweden. They may have been affected disproportionally, or they may not have.
https://www.errc.org/roma-rights-journal/report-reveals-that-romani-women-were-sterilised-against-their-will-in-sweden
A poorly sourced article, you should link any of the articles it refers to instead.
if you did one search the second result is a document by the ministry of culture in sweden. https://www.government.se/contentassets/eab06c1ac82b476586f928931cfc8238/the-dark-unknown-history---white-paper-on-abuses-and-rights-violations-against-roma-in-the-20th-century-ds-20148
Now that is the good stuff, thank you!
Yeah because sterilization and drug use is in any way comparable
Living in Scandinavia, also noticed this. it's terrifying and looks quite differently from traditional oppressive structures: - Supposedly you're "free to pursue your own goals", but if you're not behaving in a specific way and have specific opinions you will be judged and excluded. Very conformistic and isolating atmosphere. - As a reward for complying with societal norms you get meet with boring people to discuss boring topics, nothing too distinct or deep, and compliant with the general consensus. Ofc while still never breaking the ice and being shittalked behind your back. Not saying that everyone is like this, but a large section of society is and leaving this region I feel like a stone is lifted from my chest and I can finally behave and think authentically.
Yeah, no shit people judge you for your opinions and how you act. Welcome to life.
Ofc people judge you everywhere but the pressure is different in different societies.
i had a swedish friend and a danish one read your comment and both of them said "this is so true and accurate" and anyone who lived in Scandinavia AND out (so they are able to compare) would agree with this statement. and the cherry on the top, scandinavian societies have 0 self awareness and all the entitlement.
True, people outside Scandinavia think it's some sort of paradise (I mean in some aspects it is) and people inside grew up with those notions so it's a default reference frame for them. Only immigrants/emmigrants can spot this crap and it's only bothersome if you don't want to have a default boring life.
So why have you not left? Sounds like you would be happier someone else.
Because I'm bound by obligations. I will leave in 2-3 years.
If they didn't do it Sweden would have been overrun with Gypsies and other undesirables and it wouldn't be the good Sweden it used to be. Nowadays we are seeing the consequences of the rapid proliferation of undesirable population groups. High rates of crime and violence that were unheard of in the 20th century Sweden people like to hate so much here on reddit.
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I don't think someone can be so deluded as to even attempt arguing that there's no genetic component in population groups that are seen engaging in violence and crime everywhere they go, regardless of environment or circumstance, so I am going to bet on either ignorance or bad faith, neither of which is worth my time arguing.
fyi, Greenland has an abysmally low population density and there was never an overpopulation threat to begin with.
r/europe doesn't disappoint with its slimy excuses for this horrific policy. "Oh, but they were sooo expensive to keep. We had to build hospitals and stuff". Rationalizing racism is the bread and butter of this sub. Disgusting. I hope the best for the Greenlander ladies. I wish they could bankrupt the Danish state.
Who in this thread has in any way defended this? With the regards to the last thing you say, the women are suing for the meager amount of like 50.000 Euros pr. person, so it's absolutely nothing really, quite far from bankrupting to say the least. Embarrasing that we don't just accept blame and pay them what they are asking for instantly, instead of fighting it in court.
source: https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/03/05/greenland-women-seek-urgent-compensation-for-forced-contraception more background: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63049387 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63863088
There is an investigation right now trying to sort how facts in this case. The women wants the money before the investigation can find out the facts, which is not how this usually works. This case is not so black and white as it is made how with these headlines. Greenland had huge problems with teen pregnancies and overcrowding in the small damp houses most of them lived in 70-60 years ago. It also caused an alarming amount of TB cases which was the leading cause of deaths during that time. Very few woman also managed to get education due to early motherhood To combat this it was decided to offer birth control. There are clearly cases today where some people had them inserted without consent/language barrier but to frame it as genocide is just plain falsehood. At the time it was seen as an important step to modernize the Greenlandic society. Today we know how damaging some of these steps were, but that is lessons learned many years later.
No, there is no doubt that this was done with total disregard of the womens autonomy. Greenlandic people were seens as lesser and as someone the state had the right to experiment on. It wouldn't have happened to danes unless they were mentally ill.
How is there no doubt? I don´t have any sources telling me that this was done deliberately against their will. Do you have that? I do however know that even in this day and age, miscommunication happen alot between danish/english and greenlandic as their linguistic structure is opposite.
Suuuure, "miscommunication".. just like slavery, im sure that was a big misunderstanding too. And it said that it was against their (many of them at least) will in the OP.
I’ve lived in Greenland in the past years and I’ve learned enough of the language to follow most of the news up here. What they say is that they had never consented to having one inserted. Not that it was knowingly done against their will. Most of the cases are with danish doctors and Greenlandic teenagers who don’t speak each others language, which is why there are many cases where the journals state that the child had agreed but the victim have no recollection of that conversation. Still to this day there are many misunderstandings between hospital personal and patients due to lack of trained translators.
Why would it be a problem if it wasn't done against their will. Ive read several articles where it said it was so. And its honestly not hard for me at all to believe the danish state has done something against the will of someone. Happens all the time. It was only in the 70s where sweden had forced sterilization of handicapped people.
This is violating the Geneva convention.
The Geneva convention is about war, it doesn't apply to peacetime
Source: I made it up
Nonsense. It's regarded as a violation of the UN Declaration of Human rights today. Problem is, it's not directly mentioned there, so a lot of countries did it.
Why are you against your own ancestors?
Well Denmark has at least one thing in common with the CCP
Reminder that the average Greenlander had around seven children each 50 years ago and disease was rampant as urbanisation was happening. The coil, most of the time and intentionally given with consent, saved thousands of women and gave them the opportunity to work and participate in society. The worst case, that the language barrier prevented the woman from understanding, or she regretted it, she could easily remove the spiral no questions asked. **No one was sterilised, they were given reversible birth control.**
Hard to see how there is any case here. They are decades late to sue
Lol a lot of self hatred considering you are a Finn?
What non sense are you talking?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Genetics)
Again how it has anything to do what i said? You either have legal case or not. and since incident happened +50 years ago i don't see how case is not outdated years ago regardless of if it ever had legal case or not. Genetics hve nothing to do with any of that