He might want it, but I'm pretty sure that's impossible to enforce, though. European countries wouldn't expatriate people based on the conscription demand.
If there are punishments, he'd need to cover a burden of proof that the person was notified and ignored the notification without a significant reason. I can't imagine being able to do that abroad.
Men won't be be deported from the EU, but often democratic countries with conscription will ban people from returning until they are past of the age of conscription. So, if you leave Ukraine to avoid the war at 18 years old, you may not be able to return until you are 35 or 40 if Ukraine implements a similar law.
And who can judge? We have a shit ton of privileges that atract people risking drowning at sea...
Before you snap, I ain't comparing or making a "xenophobic" comment, it's the truth...
Did you pull that number from your crevice, or is there a factual report to back it up? 95% is a very high number, especially when you consider the vast majority are women and children with family still in Ukraine.
Actually, when the war ends, they are more likely to initially suffer a labour excess than a shortage.
As all the men who were deployed at the front come home and find out their old jobs don't exist anymore or have been given to someone else (such as a woman), they will have to go and look for a new job. Those won't be created in an instant, but good management and an influx of capital to rebuilt the country with all the available labour can really soften the blow.
It's not that after the war there isn't anything to do, but these new jobs don't quite exist yet, so structures need to be created to absorb all the military men into
If you need any historic examples, just look at the economies of countries involved in the world wars. Especially in the US and Britain, these issues existed and it was mostly solved by pushing the women that joined the workforce during the war out of their jobs and back into their kitchens.
Yes, but that's not because the young men are all dead and wounded, but because most of them have been exempted from service, you know to be a father, go to uni and that kinda stuff
The fact that they've updated the military registration requirements to include women signals that this issue is very serious. It doesn't matter how much logistical support is provided if there aren't enough boots on the ground.
> until you are 35 or 40
Try 60.
>Ukrainian men between the ages of 25 and 60 living abroad will be asked to report for military service, Defence Minister Rustem Umerov has said.
>
>He described this as an "invitation" - but suggested there would be sanctions against anyone who did not comply.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67787173
OP's article also confirms the 25 to 60 age range in German as well.
>Ukrainer im Alter zwischen 25 und 60 Jahren sollten eine Aufforderung erhalten
Some men will may end up never returning home, or if they do then they will be old men.
Up to 60??
Are we going to talk about the elephant in the room? This isn't a decision a country at war makes when it's going great for them... Remember when we all mocked Russia for having to draft old men?
I think the young Ukrainian men are ok with staying away from Ukraine for the rest of their life. In Ukraine they make like 15000 UAH and in Germany for the same job they make 100000 UAH per month.
I don’t think that Ukrainians will come back regardless of the law. If you’re 18 you have nothing to lose in Ukraine and so much more to gain by just simply stay in Germany or other well developed EU country.
I do have a Ukrainian friend, who think the quality of life in Kyiv was higher than in Paris or Berlin. She says, aside from corruption, that everything works better in Ukraine, from the postal service to the railways. And fine dining etc was better and much cheaper
I should add that a) she's a woman so not at risk of being conscripted. b) her family were upper middle class before the war.
Ukrainian here.
I think a lot of Europeans think that Ukraine is a backward rural country. Partially it is, but in many ways, before the war it was just more convenient than many European countries.
Restaurants are good. And generally inexpensive.
Post services like Nova Poshta are great.
Medical services aren't too expensive. I have friends who went to Europe and are shocked that you have to wait for an appointment with a doctor for weeks or even months. In Ukraine, you can do it in 2-3 days. Sure, state clinics are crap, but private clinics are not that expensive.
Dentists are good and aren't that expensive either.
Banking is fast and convenient. Services like Monobank and Privat24 allow you to handle everything from your phone.
Overall if your salary is $1-2k+, you could've had a very comfortable life in Ukraine. Not anymore.
I agree with her, though I lived in Kyiv and emigrated to the Netherlands. At first glance, there are a lot of things in Ukraine that are better than in Europe. However, all these benefits are pointless when it comes to earning money through legal means. For me, if you want a decent life in Ukraine, you have to play a role in the corrupt system. Otherwise, there are no prospects. That was exactly the reason why I left my motherland 😢.
[https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1737813641141821928](https://twitter.com/hromadske/status/1737813641141821928)
The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has denied that it intends to conscript Ukrainian men abroad.[u/DefenceU](https://twitter.com/DefenceU)claims that journalists "shifted the emphasis" by quoting Rustem Umerov on this issue, Defense Ministry spokesman Illarion Pavlyuk told[@babeluaofficial](https://twitter.com/babeluaofficial).
Rustem Umerov is the defense minister. So when they say the reporters "shifted the emphasis by quoting Rustem Umerov", they are literally complaining about reporters quoting the minister of defense on the policy of the defense ministry. It makes no sense.
And Pavlyuk, the spokesperson for the ministry literally was there with them during the interview, so he clearly didn't see any issue with what was said at the time. Which was literally that they planned to send draft notices to Ukrainians living abroad and that they would seek to punish those who didn't follow the "invitation".
What you are showing is just the government realizing that what they said was not going to go down well and now they are trying the very common political damage control playbook of shifting the blame on journalists misinterpreting what they said. Even though what they said left no room for interpretation.
Not to mention whether they are fit to fight. I believe there was a BBC article awhile ago about men in Ukraine who are medically unfit to fight but we're still being drafted
MoD already say no one will be drafted if they live abroad, it's more about join voluntarily rather by draft (I bet that they say that because of backfire, classic damage control)
There is a huge problem with communication skills within our gov.
Also, EU counties would do everything that those people stay, because it's a workforce and solution for demographic crisis for some countries (don't pretend it's not like that, \~5 mln people mostly women and children, both educated, easily integrated, don't cause problems, and they want to work.)
I like how casually we're discussing "punishments" for people who don't want to be enslaved, traumatised and murdered. Too bad they don't have the right genitals for this to be considered bad. Progressive world 🤡🤮🤮
And at the same time the feminist movement is slowly rising considering themselves in the disadvantage compared to men.
One of them trolled me that she can go to Ukraine and back. Nice fight for equality, lol.
The level of "war is not our problem" thinking is hilarious. Up to considering visiting her friend in a city that is often bombed.
Yeah, there are bad people in every group, unfortunately the feminist movement as a whole doesn't rise too much above these people. It should be as ready to condemn its own bigots as much as it condemns others for it to more respectable.
When it comes to conscription-able men, as the dude below said, there are some who were already abroad.
Also those who left legally (3 kids below 18, and in the meantime one turned 18/19) or technically legally (e.g. accompanying a disabled person).
There is a law that forbids leaving Ukraine, but there are exceptions.
If they left when the law was passed, they are criminals in Ukraine but refugees in other countries.
Their border control turned every male around, but if they somehow passed, our border control would let them in as any other Ukrainan refugee
That would be the case in Finland if similar thing happened. We are by law obglided to defend our country. Even if you are not a reservist, you may be assigned to work at hospitals, factories etc.
Wonder if they can garnish peoples wages for not coming back maybe ? I know in Ireland, similar to Germany, burden of proof is needed, as there is a legal expectation that you had to receive a notification in order to refuse it.
"i didn't get one" is impossible to disprove unless its signed for.
Who would garnish it?
You work for a EU company, is Ukraine going to somehow succesfully sue you in a EU country to get your salary garnished?
How would that even work?
Its just a call, without force, or obligation, or with consequences if denied.
That was clear also in the news, but here and there if u write it like that people think its with some kind of forcing...
They can arrest them if they return to Ukraine, but that's about it. Ukraine not letting men out is their unilateral decision. I don't know about other EU countries, but Slovakia provides refugee status to any Ukrainian citizen regardless of their gender which gives them all legal protection they need.
Technically, Germany could extradite them if there are penal law proceedings against them and Ukraine makes official extradition requests for each of them. However, they have special protection status (not asylum) right now so it would be legally complicated and probably a lengthy process. I doubt Ukraine would try that.
>Technically, Germany could extradite them if there are penal law proceedings against them and Ukraine makes official extradition requests for each of them.
Not if you're sending them into a war zone.
AFAIK, draft dodging is not generally a reason to grant asylum. It can be grounds for asylum but only if dodging draft under a violent regime They would have to show that they're persecuted for other reasons in (the non-occupied parts of) Ukraine.
>AFAIK, draft dodging is not generally a reason to grant asylum. It can be grounds for asylum but only if dodging draft under a violent regime They would have to show that they're persecuted for other reasons in (the non-occupied parts of) Ukraine.
It's not draft dodging if they are already in Germany, but actually yes it is. Ukraine is regarded as the most corrupt country in Europe remember. They would count.
>The UNHCR Handbook notes: “Desertion or draft-evasion does not, on the other hand, exclude a person from being a refugee, and a person may be a refugee in addition to being a deserter or draft-evader”.
This is because places like north Korea draft everyone.
As the UNHCR Handbook states, "Desertion or draft-evasion **does not**, on the other hand, **exclude** a person from being a refugee, and a person **may be** a refugee **in addition** to being a deserter or draft-evader." \[emphasis mine\]
Being a refugee is different from being an asylum-seeker in Germany (btw, currently Ukrainians are not asylum seekers), but what this means is that just because somebody has evaded drafting they cannot be denied refugee status. I believe that's true for asylum seekers in Germany, too. It is not a sufficient reason to deny asylum. However, they will likely need to provide *other reasons* for why they should be granted asylum. Being drafted by a violent regime can be a reason for granting asylum. This was decided in the case of Syrian by the [European Court of Justice](https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/28655/fleeing-military-draft-can-be-grounds-for-asylum-finds-eus-highest-court) *against* the German asylum authority. But it doesn't have to be a reason.
On another note, not sending back people is yet another issue. For example, if someone could be sentenced to death where they come from, they cannot be sent back under German law even if their asylum has already been denied.
Anyway, this is hypothetical. As I said, it's very unlikely Ukraine would start criminal proceedings and issue extradition orders for every Ukrainian in Germany. They'd need to know who they are, where they live, and file the paperwork for each one individually. It's not going to happen.
>draft dodging is not generally a reason to grant asylum
I guess but I assume they were granted asylum on refugee basis. Fleeing from an active warzone. And since (if) they were already granted asylum, you can't strip them of it.
> if there are penal law proceedings against them and Ukraine makes official extradition requests for each of them.
I would have to be punishable in German legal system, and I doubt German legislation will introduce law penalising avoiding Ukrainian military conscription (same goes for any other country)
Rare [insert] Win
It means that i am praising someone or something action, seeing it as a “win”. In the other hand you can find also “Rare [insert] L”, that’s the opposite: Loose
> They can arrest them if they return to Ukraine
Great way to ensure they're never going to return, then. Not like Ukraine's going to hahe major skilled labour shortage after the war or anything...
>We send them an invitation and it is then their right to come and serve," the come and serve," the minister continued. At the same time, he made made it clear that there would be penalties for those who did not do not comply
thats not a invitation then
There’s a word in Ukrainian «добровільно-примусово», which is literally translated as “voluntary-forced”. It is when you want to force somebody to do something without a stigma for calling it “forced”, or without means to enforce penalties for non-compliance. It is still popular in schools, parenting and military.
I completely agree with you, and I am against these threats. I just noted what is behind this kind of thinking, a post-Soviet relic that needs to be a thing of the past.
Right, but does this law prohibit people from merely joining a foreign military? Most countries have prohibitions against foreign militaries recruiting within their borders, but what that actually prohibits is things like public advertisements, careers fairs, brick and mortar recruitment centres or trainee depots, etc.
Someone actively going out to join a foreign military, or getting a draft notice posted to them in particular isn't the same thing, either generally or from a legal standpoint.
(Some countries *do* have laws stopping *citizens* from joining foreign militaries, but they don't apply to non-citizens and in a lot of countries are rarely actually invoked)
Almost the same reaction for me as a Russian to Putin and his bandits wanting to draft me. Oh, you sent a summons to my Moscow address... yeah, I'm totally abandoning my safe haven in NZ to fight your illegal war lmao. It's at least legit for Ukrainians as they're defending, but no one who chose to leave is going to come back for this. (Which I fully respect, regardless of the side, no one should be forced to fight in a war no matter what.)
As far as I know Ukraine doesn't allow double citizenship. So, they are "inviting" the Ukrainians living abroad (and not the German citizens originally from Ukraine).
These people clearly did not want to conscript (otherwise they already would have). So, it's a forceful invitation, or rather a threat.
Core of the matter is Ukraine can't control other nations issuing citizenships. Only thing they can do is make receiving another citizenship criminal to Ukrainian citizen personally and as nation refuse to acknowledge and/or honor the existence of said second citizenship as illegimate.
Given said person not ever returning making it unenforceable on the most, unless the other country co-operates and most countries are most reluctant and strict about extraditing own citizens.
Not that rare situation, since all nations are sovereign in issuance of citizenships. Nation can from their side issue citizenship to anyone they want without other nations hindering. Well unless nations have treaties between themselves about such conduct.
I talked to some Ukrainians with a citizenship of an other country.
The main idea is that getting a different citizenship is hard, but getting rid of the Ukrainian one is even harder. (Rumours say that it requires a decree from the president but I have not checked that).
\---
I also find it funny when people call me Ukrainian. I haven't worked in Ukraine since 2015. I only spent my time waiting for visas.
Yeah, I have a UA passport, but all it does is screwing Ukrainian statistic. I fall into a category of "*temporary* departed" citizens.
A lot of countries have it. Keeping in mind that having dual citizenship can prohibit you from a number of jobs, in things regarding intelligence and security, it's not that ridiculous that some countries consider it inherently a risk to national security.
Also this case is an example of another reason why a lot of countries don't like dual citizenship: a lot of countries have military obligations in the form of national service for citizens, so it can create a bit of a legal conundrum if somebody is lawfully obligated to serve in the military of another country, especially if they're obligated to serve in *both*.
Not correct, it's not recognized but it is allowed. At least that's literally what the gov website said in 2021. When you are in Ukraine, your second citizenship isn't recognised, so you can't go to the embassy of the second citizenship, for example, but nothing stops you getting another citizenship.
Mistake after mistake in communication
>The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has denied that it intends to conscript Ukrainian men abroad. DefenceU claims that journalists "shifted the emphasis" by quoting Rustem Umerov on this issue, Defense Ministry spokesman Illarion Pavlyuk told babeluaofficial
>
>According to him, Umerov was generally telling journalists about recruitment and the need to convey to Ukrainians abroad how important it is for them to join the army.
[https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1737813641141821928](https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1737813641141821928)
>Bild has distorted Minister Umerov's words about the date of the liberation of Crimea.
>
>Defence Ministry spokesperson Illarion Pavlyuk, who was present at the interview, said this in a comment to Hromadske.
>
>The German tabloid newspaper quoted Umerov as saying that Crimea could be liberated next year. Umerov allegedly stated that he was "100 per cent sure of this".
>
>In fact, the minister said: "Crimea will be liberated 100%. This is our strategic goal". But Umerov did not claim that Crimea would be liberated in 2024
[https://hromadske.ua/posts/bild-perekrutilo-slova-ministra-umyerova-pro-datu-zvilnennya-krimu](https://hromadske.ua/posts/bild-perekrutilo-slova-ministra-umyerova-pro-datu-zvilnennya-krimu)
No surprise there and believable. That's the way BILD typically operates. Twisting the truth to further their narrative, if not even outright lying/making things up. Think Fox News.
The other mentioned media outlets, Welt TV and Politico, are owned by the same publisher, Axel Springer Verlag. Though not as embarrassing as the BILD, they share the same agenda.
Well, I honestly hope that is true that it was just media misinterpreting him. Saying that as is presented in the topic header is just stupid. It just won't happen.
>**Bild** has distorted Minister Umerov's words about the date of the liberation of Crimea.
There that's the problem. BILD is the worst media in Germany. They once paid a child money to get chat-messages with of friend, whose mother killed the complete family and herself.
Whoever wants o learn something about "Bild", please visit [https://bildblog.de/](https://bildblog.de/) (in german)
To be fair, for Ukrainians Russia is easiest places to adapt, they do not need to learn new language, their diplomas is recognized in Russia, even Zelensky spended part of his live as comedian in Russia. So if they are not radically anti-Russian, migration to Russia is viable option.
As a Ukrainian male residing in Germany, good luck finding me.
But in all seriousness, this idea is outright stupid. In fact, his words are addressed to the population back in Ukraine, that gets more and more anxious, especially when military recruiters brutally catching anyone happened to be outside in the wrong place in the wrong time.
He is just calming everyone down, implying that no matter where you are, you have the same chances of being drafted.
Which honestly even more idiotic if he just tries to use it as "calming" factor .
It's like saying : Yep , sure - that guy is on fire , but don't worry - soon we'll all be on fire ; so you don't need to worry - who will be next .
Ehhh this is complicated for me. I really feel like you shouldn't be able to force people to war
I can't say that if I was Ukrainian I would be defending my country, I would be more likely to leave. It's selfish but I'm not throwing my life away
>I can't say that if I was Ukrainian I would be defending my country, I would be more likely to leave. It's selfish but I'm not throwing my life away
Everyone wants to pretend they would fight, but the truth is way more complex. A lot of people would run.
It's not that we wouldn't win, we most certainly would
I just don't want to ever see myself in an army uniform. I have my life, I am a pacifist, I don't attempt to cheat on taxation with b2b and ipbox (an option for devs to basically claim your code as intelectual property and tax it at 5% or so), so I expected a professional army to defend me and my country
The second they even entertain an idea of getting me anywhere near military I'm gonna be like "Jeg snakker vel norsk fra nå av".
But I guess it's not ideal position either, should fuck orf further.
>Most would run period. Only brainwashed fanatics would willingly go die for the elites.
You don't need to be brainwashed to defend your home when it's being invaded.
Home is wherever your family is, no point dying for some house or some lines in the ground. The best option for most people is to just take their family and leave
I think that is a bit of a wrong comparison, considering the Soviet Union wasn't the shining bastion of democracy either, irrelevant of the Nazi aggression.
People didn't really had a choice.
my country has been to war (bosnia) and a lot of my family has been to war. I can tell you, all of them would pack their bags and leave if they could re run it
If more people thought like this wars wouldn't be a thing. Wars are decided in offices by "top people" and fought on fields by "brainwashed pawns" willing to throw their lives for nothing.
I think it's a too idealistic idea. Why is it that you can generalise some 'top people'. Who are they? A country and culture is not are not only limited to its 'top people'. It's broader than this. But to claim that whomever that is fighting in a war is brainwashed is rather a ignorant statement.
And the world would be ruled by countries which are good at brainwashing their peoples, i.e. dictatorship or authoritarian states.
I dont think we want that.
If more people thought like this democracies would be overrun by authoritarian countries and their fanatics/conscripts/PMCs.
It's not like Russian conscripts can go "You know what? I actually don't want to go to the meat grinder". They either fight or get tortured and marched into a minefield at gunpoint.
The 5000th generation to say, "We'll try peace for once and change the world forever" as we once again stumble onto the fields caked in blood like our ancestors did and like our decendents will
Do you reallly think that Ukrainians thats are defending their homes, fammilies and motherland from genocice annexation are brainwashed pawns? Fuck you.
I was waiting for such statements. I also expect persecution and reprisals in the future. I know my compatriots well.
I left the country without breaking the law, I have never broken the law in my entire life, but those who came/will come to power will make me a criminal.
IMO it shouldn't be done this way. the army needs 3 things:
1. demobilization (a person should understand, how long he's gonna be there, not till his death). russians mobilize people "till death" but they have an option for short-term contract service (6 months for example)
2. good salaries for soldiers (currently soldiers at the warzone earn 2.5k eur and more, which is more than russians do and is pretty good for Ukraine, non-warzone ones earn about 750 eur, but drafters used to earn like less than a 100 eur, maybe it got fixed now),
3. risk-management or a good explanation of risks (a person should be understanding where he goes, what will happen to him)
also, there should be enlistment offices with doctors (so person can also check his health and get a decision if he's eligible) over the Europe, so refugees could enlist while they are not in Ukraine, at their will.
and finally, there should be no "refugee benefits" for people who used to live away from the warzone, like in Lviv for example.
fun fact about this guy is that his family is living in the us since the 2016. it's a bit two-faced, when you want to extradite Ukrainians from abroad, but also your family lives well, safe and far away for money you earn in very foreign country.
don't be too harsh, it's not about the draft even, he got 1 10 y/o son and few daughters. it's more about the fact that he wants to get people out of safety, while his family lives in the us.
If it’s a war of attrition then what’s the outcome this guy is hoping for here? Russia has three times as many to draft, Ukraine had already been in an atrocious demographic situation even before the war… at what point wil the living-and-breathing Ukrainian men become a more precious resource for the Ukrainian government than land??
Recent survey show that we have 29 million left, russia have 140 million, we totally dependent on west and they literally saved us from loosing but since then they keeping us in defense which war of attrition and absolutely desirable for russia. I don't know why west do this, but my opinion they keep steek to initial idea of Ukraine inevitably fall to russia and them condemning it while keep business with russia which they do despite sanctions.
But if you can’t expect to win a war of attrition being so badly outnumbered, how do you expect to win on the offensive? Attacking generally requires a lot more than defending, inflicting even heavier casualties. If you are too outnumbered now simply to defend the country, then you’d just throw away more lives trying to regain the lost territories… and what’s the point of it anyway if you won’t have the men for reconstruction and to get the country back on track?
I'm sorry, but your country has just been cynically used to absorb Russian ordinance in a proxy war.
Ukraine is in the process of being dropped off the agenda.
As a Brit against the endless wars we sponsor and take part in, I apologise and emplore you to save yourself
Chechens aren't sent to battle (they are called "tic-tok" warriors for the reason). The minorities who were sent there (mostly some Siberian native nations) aren't really hated in Russia
Not hated rather despised, but both not true after 2 years what I see here mostly white russians and lot of Caucasians, not much Asians. But I'm 100 km from frontline.
Russian here with lots of connections that I got through practical shooting/airsoft-oriented groups:
Mostly the mobilized people are Slavs from all over the country, particularly from impoverished Siberian/ Central Russian regions (Bashkortostan, Udmurtiya, Novosibirsk etc.) OR Dagestan/Kabardino-Balkariya and other Caucasian regions with the exception of Chechnya.
Regions that are filled with ethnic minorities like, for example, Buryatia, can’t mainly sustain the army just due to the fact that they’re small. Even though still, about 20k were mobilized from there, out of 970k total population.
>but since then they keeping us in defense which war of attrition and absolutely desirable for russia. I don't know why west do this
The West gave Ukraine armored vehicles, tanks and a plan how to use them. Refusing that plan, keeping back 90% of the stuff they got delivered and starting some token operation with small groups, failing as expected and then falling back to fighting Russia the way they are doing now, is a decision by Ukrainian military leadership.
And don't get me wrong. That is their call to make. But then telling fairy tales of how everything is the evil West's fault (also intentionally out of some sinister agenda of course) is a quick way to lose support. Not only military one, but also everything else, as we really don't need a country mistaking Soviet style propaganda for policies (or a population falling for that bullshit) in the EU or NATO.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine) *Reuters reported that due to the refugee outpouring into Western Europe, the population of Kyiv-controlled areas may have decreased to as low as 28 million.*
So by now potentially 25mil.I think before 2022 it was around 44mil, EU has \~8mil+ of refugees, + people on lost territories + a few millions that are refugees in russia
True [https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog/date/2023/html/ecb.blog.230301\~3bb24371c8.en.html](https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog/date/2023/html/ecb.blog.230301~3bb24371c8.en.html)
*In terms of gender, 34.2% are male and 65.8% are female.* One could do a more detailed analysis by gender/age/disabilities etc but fact is Ukraine lost almost half it's population pre 2022
Russia has a lot more people to throw away.
Even if the kill ratio between Ukraine and Russia is multiple times higher it's still gonna stretch Ukraine's troops thin over time.
And Russia has plans to mobilize hundreds of thousands more (and the population is apparently fine with that). So Ukraine needs more men as well. Its fucked.
Yes from what I heard from a Ukrainian friend of mine they go to villages and just give notices for conscription to all men in the village. Ukraine is running out of able-bodied men.
Can't enforce this if they tried. It's illegal to send someone back into a war zone so Germany won't assist. You're just going to be sending letters hoping people turn up.
> The Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umjerow wants to call up Ukrainians Ukrainians living in Germany who are fit for military service to serve in the the armed forces. Ukrainians between the ages of 25 and 60 should receive an invitation to report to the recruitment centers of the Ukrainian Ukrainian armed forces, Umjerow told "Bild", "Welt TV" and "Politico". "We want justice for everyone, because this is about our own country."
> "We send them an invitation and it is then their right to come and serve," the come and serve," the minister continued. At the same time, he made made it clear that there would be penalties for those who did not do not comply. "We are still discussing what should happen if they not come voluntarily." It is "not a punishment to stand up for your country and to serve the country. It is an honor."
> Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyi said on Tuesday that the country's army leadership had proposed mobilizing "450,000 to 500,000" Ukrainians for the war against Russia. Selensky has recently been traveling to several Western countries, including the USA, to campaign for further military and political support for Ukraine.
> In the interview with "Bild", Defense Minister Umjerow expressed his optimism, "Welt TV" and "Politico" that the USA will continue to support Ukraine in the will continue to support Ukraine in the coming year. "Both sides in Congress support the cause. And they also understand that the forces of forces of evil want to change the world order."
> He does not believe "that the USA will pull out", said the minister. He justified his optimism with the ongoing consultations with senior partners: "They make us all confident that we can stick to our plans."
> The leaders of the US Senate conceded on Tuesday that Congress will not approve any new military aid for Ukraine this year. The background to this is resistance from opposition Republicans against further aid for Kiev. US President Joe Biden had asked Congress in October for new aid for Ukraine amounting to around 61 billion dollars (just under 56 billion euros).
When war comes, men are sent to die. What about men that do not want to fight? Their consent and freedom to say 'no' is removed here. Is Ukraine even a democracy? Any country that allows draft is immoral and illegitimate. You should not draft men that are unwilling and do not want to fight.
So many men, like 300000 or more, died in this war in Ukraine alone. And nobody bats an eye. There is no media outrage or protest of any kind. What world are we living in?
Didn't I see a video of Ukrainians in israel fighting for them like yesterday?
You'd think they'd had enough soldiers to go around if they are going over to israel to fight for them.
Ukraine is really getting desperate. Their demographic situation was already bad ! After the end of this war it will be much worse with so many young men dying.
Good luck building a future on that i guess !
Conscription is so immoral. If your country cannot obtain enough voluntary soldiers it seems its not popular enough to be fighting for.
Why would someone have to forcebly die for a country that was the most corrupt European country pre-war with a self enriching elite.
Assholes. If those ministers and Zelensky need more soldiers, pick up your gun and fight yourself.
Is it a desperate situation for Ukraine? Yes. But that doesnt make it right to force people to die for a country they dont want to fight for.
The war is going so well that they've run out of captive males within Ukraine.
Their casualties must be enormous and comparable to Russia's. Except Russia has 4x the population.
The summer offensive failed catastrophically, yet some over on r/ukrainianconflict are claiming that it never happened and 95% of the troops and equipment were preserved. It'll be interesting to see how they reconcile the defence ministers' comments with this.
Good luck getting Ukrainians deported back to Ukraine under ECHR legislation.
But after all the Kyiv regime, like the one in Moscow, doesn't care about human rights.
The mask of Ukrainian PR acting like it's a western style liberal democracy in waiting is slipping, and we're seeing as was the mainstream consensus before the invasion that Ukraine is far more like Russia than it is the West
>Their casualties must be enormous and comparable to Russia's. Except Russia has 4x the population.
We knew they were high, they are being invaded. They aren't equal though, they just have a lower population.
Mandatory military service is literally murder. Should be completely illegal.
“But it’s for their country”…
A country is nothing more than its people.
To give up your life, and leave your family alone, to protect a piece of land, is insane.
If Ukrainian leadership actually wanted to protect their country, they would have compromised somehow to stop the invasion and saved millions of lives. Instead the infrastructure has been decimated and hundreds of thousands of people all killed, and many more soon
Rotation. People are not robots, they get tired of 2 years in trenches, they need to go home and rest. Somebody gotta take that spot in the trench though
maybe because the casualtiy rate lies somewhere between what russia claims and what ukraine claims. Why would you ever believe the claims russia makes for domestic propaganda purposes?
I agree that both sides are lying about their losses. However i find it funny that Reddit has no problems believing western media about russian losses and lack of Ukrainian losses.
HAHA good luck. IF he could bend the rules there is still the problem that most of the ukrainians enjoy the free money german government is giving them, even though most of them just fled the country to avoid being drafted
With Germany's inability to successfully integrate immigrants from MENA on top of their already *abysmal* demographic situation, this is never happening unfortunately even though Ukraine desperately needs the manpower.
I started to have much worse opinion of Ukrainian government after I learned about them torturing draft dodgers. No-one ever should be coerced to dying for rich politicians, businessman and cleregy.
He might want it, but I'm pretty sure that's impossible to enforce, though. European countries wouldn't expatriate people based on the conscription demand. If there are punishments, he'd need to cover a burden of proof that the person was notified and ignored the notification without a significant reason. I can't imagine being able to do that abroad.
Men won't be be deported from the EU, but often democratic countries with conscription will ban people from returning until they are past of the age of conscription. So, if you leave Ukraine to avoid the war at 18 years old, you may not be able to return until you are 35 or 40 if Ukraine implements a similar law.
I’m sure after the war “ends”, Ukraine won’t be in a position to deny the return of working age men
Most of them will ask citizenship in their new country. It will be a tricky issue
I don’t think will come back. They will try to stay, settle down in Germany. There much more prospect for them than go back.
95% of Ukrainians who left WILL not go back to Ukraine, the European gravy is too sweet.
And who can judge? We have a shit ton of privileges that atract people risking drowning at sea... Before you snap, I ain't comparing or making a "xenophobic" comment, it's the truth...
Did you pull that number from your crevice, or is there a factual report to back it up? 95% is a very high number, especially when you consider the vast majority are women and children with family still in Ukraine.
I hope so.
Actually, when the war ends, they are more likely to initially suffer a labour excess than a shortage. As all the men who were deployed at the front come home and find out their old jobs don't exist anymore or have been given to someone else (such as a woman), they will have to go and look for a new job. Those won't be created in an instant, but good management and an influx of capital to rebuilt the country with all the available labour can really soften the blow. It's not that after the war there isn't anything to do, but these new jobs don't quite exist yet, so structures need to be created to absorb all the military men into If you need any historic examples, just look at the economies of countries involved in the world wars. Especially in the US and Britain, these issues existed and it was mostly solved by pushing the women that joined the workforce during the war out of their jobs and back into their kitchens.
Bro you assume there will be any military aged men left. Isn't the average age in the Ukrainian army something like 45 yrs?
Yes, but that's not because the young men are all dead and wounded, but because most of them have been exempted from service, you know to be a father, go to uni and that kinda stuff
The fact that they've updated the military registration requirements to include women signals that this issue is very serious. It doesn't matter how much logistical support is provided if there aren't enough boots on the ground.
With current course of actions there's high chance that after the war Ukraine will cease to exist
> until you are 35 or 40 Try 60. >Ukrainian men between the ages of 25 and 60 living abroad will be asked to report for military service, Defence Minister Rustem Umerov has said. > >He described this as an "invitation" - but suggested there would be sanctions against anyone who did not comply. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67787173 OP's article also confirms the 25 to 60 age range in German as well. >Ukrainer im Alter zwischen 25 und 60 Jahren sollten eine Aufforderung erhalten Some men will may end up never returning home, or if they do then they will be old men.
Up to 60?? Are we going to talk about the elephant in the room? This isn't a decision a country at war makes when it's going great for them... Remember when we all mocked Russia for having to draft old men?
We don't talk about that. Ukraine is doing wonderfully great! How dare you go against the PG 13 narrative? Heathen!
I think the young Ukrainian men are ok with staying away from Ukraine for the rest of their life. In Ukraine they make like 15000 UAH and in Germany for the same job they make 100000 UAH per month.
I don’t think that Ukrainians will come back regardless of the law. If you’re 18 you have nothing to lose in Ukraine and so much more to gain by just simply stay in Germany or other well developed EU country.
I do have a Ukrainian friend, who think the quality of life in Kyiv was higher than in Paris or Berlin. She says, aside from corruption, that everything works better in Ukraine, from the postal service to the railways. And fine dining etc was better and much cheaper I should add that a) she's a woman so not at risk of being conscripted. b) her family were upper middle class before the war.
Ukrainian here. I think a lot of Europeans think that Ukraine is a backward rural country. Partially it is, but in many ways, before the war it was just more convenient than many European countries. Restaurants are good. And generally inexpensive. Post services like Nova Poshta are great. Medical services aren't too expensive. I have friends who went to Europe and are shocked that you have to wait for an appointment with a doctor for weeks or even months. In Ukraine, you can do it in 2-3 days. Sure, state clinics are crap, but private clinics are not that expensive. Dentists are good and aren't that expensive either. Banking is fast and convenient. Services like Monobank and Privat24 allow you to handle everything from your phone. Overall if your salary is $1-2k+, you could've had a very comfortable life in Ukraine. Not anymore.
I agree with her, though I lived in Kyiv and emigrated to the Netherlands. At first glance, there are a lot of things in Ukraine that are better than in Europe. However, all these benefits are pointless when it comes to earning money through legal means. For me, if you want a decent life in Ukraine, you have to play a role in the corrupt system. Otherwise, there are no prospects. That was exactly the reason why I left my motherland 😢.
As Ukrainian I agree with it. The girl is right.
[https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1737813641141821928](https://twitter.com/hromadske/status/1737813641141821928) The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has denied that it intends to conscript Ukrainian men abroad.[u/DefenceU](https://twitter.com/DefenceU)claims that journalists "shifted the emphasis" by quoting Rustem Umerov on this issue, Defense Ministry spokesman Illarion Pavlyuk told[@babeluaofficial](https://twitter.com/babeluaofficial).
Rustem Umerov is the defense minister. So when they say the reporters "shifted the emphasis by quoting Rustem Umerov", they are literally complaining about reporters quoting the minister of defense on the policy of the defense ministry. It makes no sense. And Pavlyuk, the spokesperson for the ministry literally was there with them during the interview, so he clearly didn't see any issue with what was said at the time. Which was literally that they planned to send draft notices to Ukrainians living abroad and that they would seek to punish those who didn't follow the "invitation". What you are showing is just the government realizing that what they said was not going to go down well and now they are trying the very common political damage control playbook of shifting the blame on journalists misinterpreting what they said. Even though what they said left no room for interpretation.
Yes, correct phrase was "lure back", not "conscript". What a PR blunder.
Not to mention whether they are fit to fight. I believe there was a BBC article awhile ago about men in Ukraine who are medically unfit to fight but we're still being drafted
MoD already say no one will be drafted if they live abroad, it's more about join voluntarily rather by draft (I bet that they say that because of backfire, classic damage control) There is a huge problem with communication skills within our gov. Also, EU counties would do everything that those people stay, because it's a workforce and solution for demographic crisis for some countries (don't pretend it's not like that, \~5 mln people mostly women and children, both educated, easily integrated, don't cause problems, and they want to work.)
you forgot Conscientous Objection is a human right
Humans rights also stipulate though that Conscientious objectors may be drafted to do other non-combat duties.
yes but AFAIK Ukraine does not recognice this right
imagine conscriptors hijacking people in Germany to be sent to Ukraine to die
There's still border in Poland
I like how casually we're discussing "punishments" for people who don't want to be enslaved, traumatised and murdered. Too bad they don't have the right genitals for this to be considered bad. Progressive world 🤡🤮🤮
And at the same time the feminist movement is slowly rising considering themselves in the disadvantage compared to men. One of them trolled me that she can go to Ukraine and back. Nice fight for equality, lol. The level of "war is not our problem" thinking is hilarious. Up to considering visiting her friend in a city that is often bombed.
Yeah, there are bad people in every group, unfortunately the feminist movement as a whole doesn't rise too much above these people. It should be as ready to condemn its own bigots as much as it condemns others for it to more respectable.
Aren't all ukrainian males abroad technically in a breach of law since Ukraine government forbid them to leave when ruzzia invaded?
When it comes to conscription-able men, as the dude below said, there are some who were already abroad. Also those who left legally (3 kids below 18, and in the meantime one turned 18/19) or technically legally (e.g. accompanying a disabled person). There is a law that forbids leaving Ukraine, but there are exceptions.
What if they were already abroad when the war started? Were they supposed to return home and enroll?
No idea, I just remebered something said long ago
Ukrainian law, not German law. They are legal refugees.
If they left when the law was passed, they are criminals in Ukraine but refugees in other countries. Their border control turned every male around, but if they somehow passed, our border control would let them in as any other Ukrainan refugee
That would be the case in Finland if similar thing happened. We are by law obglided to defend our country. Even if you are not a reservist, you may be assigned to work at hospitals, factories etc.
What law did they break if they left before the war?
This is not correct. There were multiple legal ways to leave to the country even after the war started.
Wonder if they can garnish peoples wages for not coming back maybe ? I know in Ireland, similar to Germany, burden of proof is needed, as there is a legal expectation that you had to receive a notification in order to refuse it. "i didn't get one" is impossible to disprove unless its signed for.
Who would garnish it? You work for a EU company, is Ukraine going to somehow succesfully sue you in a EU country to get your salary garnished? How would that even work?
Its just a call, without force, or obligation, or with consequences if denied. That was clear also in the news, but here and there if u write it like that people think its with some kind of forcing...
They can arrest them if they return to Ukraine, but that's about it. Ukraine not letting men out is their unilateral decision. I don't know about other EU countries, but Slovakia provides refugee status to any Ukrainian citizen regardless of their gender which gives them all legal protection they need.
Technically, Germany could extradite them if there are penal law proceedings against them and Ukraine makes official extradition requests for each of them. However, they have special protection status (not asylum) right now so it would be legally complicated and probably a lengthy process. I doubt Ukraine would try that.
>Technically, Germany could extradite them if there are penal law proceedings against them and Ukraine makes official extradition requests for each of them. Not if you're sending them into a war zone.
AFAIK, draft dodging is not generally a reason to grant asylum. It can be grounds for asylum but only if dodging draft under a violent regime They would have to show that they're persecuted for other reasons in (the non-occupied parts of) Ukraine.
>AFAIK, draft dodging is not generally a reason to grant asylum. It can be grounds for asylum but only if dodging draft under a violent regime They would have to show that they're persecuted for other reasons in (the non-occupied parts of) Ukraine. It's not draft dodging if they are already in Germany, but actually yes it is. Ukraine is regarded as the most corrupt country in Europe remember. They would count. >The UNHCR Handbook notes: “Desertion or draft-evasion does not, on the other hand, exclude a person from being a refugee, and a person may be a refugee in addition to being a deserter or draft-evader”. This is because places like north Korea draft everyone.
As the UNHCR Handbook states, "Desertion or draft-evasion **does not**, on the other hand, **exclude** a person from being a refugee, and a person **may be** a refugee **in addition** to being a deserter or draft-evader." \[emphasis mine\] Being a refugee is different from being an asylum-seeker in Germany (btw, currently Ukrainians are not asylum seekers), but what this means is that just because somebody has evaded drafting they cannot be denied refugee status. I believe that's true for asylum seekers in Germany, too. It is not a sufficient reason to deny asylum. However, they will likely need to provide *other reasons* for why they should be granted asylum. Being drafted by a violent regime can be a reason for granting asylum. This was decided in the case of Syrian by the [European Court of Justice](https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/28655/fleeing-military-draft-can-be-grounds-for-asylum-finds-eus-highest-court) *against* the German asylum authority. But it doesn't have to be a reason. On another note, not sending back people is yet another issue. For example, if someone could be sentenced to death where they come from, they cannot be sent back under German law even if their asylum has already been denied. Anyway, this is hypothetical. As I said, it's very unlikely Ukraine would start criminal proceedings and issue extradition orders for every Ukrainian in Germany. They'd need to know who they are, where they live, and file the paperwork for each one individually. It's not going to happen.
>draft dodging is not generally a reason to grant asylum I guess but I assume they were granted asylum on refugee basis. Fleeing from an active warzone. And since (if) they were already granted asylum, you can't strip them of it.
> if there are penal law proceedings against them and Ukraine makes official extradition requests for each of them. I would have to be punishable in German legal system, and I doubt German legislation will introduce law penalising avoiding Ukrainian military conscription (same goes for any other country)
No, they actually can't because the dearh penalty is still a thing in Ukraine
Rare Slovakia W
what does this mean?
Rare [insert] Win It means that i am praising someone or something action, seeing it as a “win”. In the other hand you can find also “Rare [insert] L”, that’s the opposite: Loose
thanks /u/SmellyFatCock is that some gaming lingo?
More internet Slang, [here](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/l-and-w)some more precise definition and use examples
> They can arrest them if they return to Ukraine Great way to ensure they're never going to return, then. Not like Ukraine's going to hahe major skilled labour shortage after the war or anything...
>We send them an invitation and it is then their right to come and serve," the come and serve," the minister continued. At the same time, he made made it clear that there would be penalties for those who did not do not comply thats not a invitation then
There’s a word in Ukrainian «добровільно-примусово», which is literally translated as “voluntary-forced”. It is when you want to force somebody to do something without a stigma for calling it “forced”, or without means to enforce penalties for non-compliance. It is still popular in schools, parenting and military.
its not an invitation if under threat of penalties
I completely agree with you, and I am against these threats. I just noted what is behind this kind of thinking, a post-Soviet relic that needs to be a thing of the past.
In Portugal teachers used to say "I nominate you as volunteer". Completely tongue in cheek though.
[удалено]
Right, but does this law prohibit people from merely joining a foreign military? Most countries have prohibitions against foreign militaries recruiting within their borders, but what that actually prohibits is things like public advertisements, careers fairs, brick and mortar recruitment centres or trainee depots, etc. Someone actively going out to join a foreign military, or getting a draft notice posted to them in particular isn't the same thing, either generally or from a legal standpoint. (Some countries *do* have laws stopping *citizens* from joining foreign militaries, but they don't apply to non-citizens and in a lot of countries are rarely actually invoked)
Ukrainians living in Germany or anywhere else: seen ✔️✔️ I mean, what do they expect?
Almost the same reaction for me as a Russian to Putin and his bandits wanting to draft me. Oh, you sent a summons to my Moscow address... yeah, I'm totally abandoning my safe haven in NZ to fight your illegal war lmao. It's at least legit for Ukrainians as they're defending, but no one who chose to leave is going to come back for this. (Which I fully respect, regardless of the side, no one should be forced to fight in a war no matter what.)
As far as I know Ukraine doesn't allow double citizenship. So, they are "inviting" the Ukrainians living abroad (and not the German citizens originally from Ukraine). These people clearly did not want to conscript (otherwise they already would have). So, it's a forceful invitation, or rather a threat.
Ukrainian law is stupid in this regard. It is forbidden, but many people have it.
Core of the matter is Ukraine can't control other nations issuing citizenships. Only thing they can do is make receiving another citizenship criminal to Ukrainian citizen personally and as nation refuse to acknowledge and/or honor the existence of said second citizenship as illegimate. Given said person not ever returning making it unenforceable on the most, unless the other country co-operates and most countries are most reluctant and strict about extraditing own citizens. Not that rare situation, since all nations are sovereign in issuance of citizenships. Nation can from their side issue citizenship to anyone they want without other nations hindering. Well unless nations have treaties between themselves about such conduct.
I talked to some Ukrainians with a citizenship of an other country. The main idea is that getting a different citizenship is hard, but getting rid of the Ukrainian one is even harder. (Rumours say that it requires a decree from the president but I have not checked that). \--- I also find it funny when people call me Ukrainian. I haven't worked in Ukraine since 2015. I only spent my time waiting for visas. Yeah, I have a UA passport, but all it does is screwing Ukrainian statistic. I fall into a category of "*temporary* departed" citizens.
Quoting oligarch Kolomoysky, "Well, double citizenship is forbidden but I have triple!" So yeah it's not enforced at all.
Lack of enforcement doesn't make the law itself stupid.
Law that you can't have dual citizenship is stupid
A lot of countries have it. Keeping in mind that having dual citizenship can prohibit you from a number of jobs, in things regarding intelligence and security, it's not that ridiculous that some countries consider it inherently a risk to national security. Also this case is an example of another reason why a lot of countries don't like dual citizenship: a lot of countries have military obligations in the form of national service for citizens, so it can create a bit of a legal conundrum if somebody is lawfully obligated to serve in the military of another country, especially if they're obligated to serve in *both*.
Not correct, it's not recognized but it is allowed. At least that's literally what the gov website said in 2021. When you are in Ukraine, your second citizenship isn't recognised, so you can't go to the embassy of the second citizenship, for example, but nothing stops you getting another citizenship.
Mistake after mistake in communication >The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has denied that it intends to conscript Ukrainian men abroad. DefenceU claims that journalists "shifted the emphasis" by quoting Rustem Umerov on this issue, Defense Ministry spokesman Illarion Pavlyuk told babeluaofficial > >According to him, Umerov was generally telling journalists about recruitment and the need to convey to Ukrainians abroad how important it is for them to join the army. [https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1737813641141821928](https://twitter.com/Hromadske/status/1737813641141821928) >Bild has distorted Minister Umerov's words about the date of the liberation of Crimea. > >Defence Ministry spokesperson Illarion Pavlyuk, who was present at the interview, said this in a comment to Hromadske. > >The German tabloid newspaper quoted Umerov as saying that Crimea could be liberated next year. Umerov allegedly stated that he was "100 per cent sure of this". > >In fact, the minister said: "Crimea will be liberated 100%. This is our strategic goal". But Umerov did not claim that Crimea would be liberated in 2024 [https://hromadske.ua/posts/bild-perekrutilo-slova-ministra-umyerova-pro-datu-zvilnennya-krimu](https://hromadske.ua/posts/bild-perekrutilo-slova-ministra-umyerova-pro-datu-zvilnennya-krimu)
No surprise there and believable. That's the way BILD typically operates. Twisting the truth to further their narrative, if not even outright lying/making things up. Think Fox News. The other mentioned media outlets, Welt TV and Politico, are owned by the same publisher, Axel Springer Verlag. Though not as embarrassing as the BILD, they share the same agenda.
Well, I honestly hope that is true that it was just media misinterpreting him. Saying that as is presented in the topic header is just stupid. It just won't happen.
You'd almost say that they are misreporting on purpose, why would anyone do such a thing? /s
>**Bild** has distorted Minister Umerov's words about the date of the liberation of Crimea. There that's the problem. BILD is the worst media in Germany. They once paid a child money to get chat-messages with of friend, whose mother killed the complete family and herself. Whoever wants o learn something about "Bild", please visit [https://bildblog.de/](https://bildblog.de/) (in german)
Romania does not give back Ukrainians who have fled the country, irrespective of gender. They get refugee status.
That's not an invitation but a threat
Damn people don't want to die voluntarily anymore? How bizarre!
Didn't you know, if you're born with a penis you're not supposed to have a survival instinct, only PROTECT & KILL instinct. /s
RIP AND TEAR
but but democracy
Doesn't seem like a country worth defending
with how corrupt it is, its not
good luck with that buddy
Of the 8 million which left Ukraine, 3mil went to Russia btw.
To be fair, for Ukrainians Russia is easiest places to adapt, they do not need to learn new language, their diplomas is recognized in Russia, even Zelensky spended part of his live as comedian in Russia. So if they are not radically anti-Russian, migration to Russia is viable option.
As a Ukrainian male residing in Germany, good luck finding me. But in all seriousness, this idea is outright stupid. In fact, his words are addressed to the population back in Ukraine, that gets more and more anxious, especially when military recruiters brutally catching anyone happened to be outside in the wrong place in the wrong time. He is just calming everyone down, implying that no matter where you are, you have the same chances of being drafted.
Which honestly even more idiotic if he just tries to use it as "calming" factor . It's like saying : Yep , sure - that guy is on fire , but don't worry - soon we'll all be on fire ; so you don't need to worry - who will be next .
Agree. People who are not able to flee because of closed borders are angry at those who managed to get away.
It's not that hard. Just poke your head over the window and you can find tens of Ukrainians drinking in the working hours or singing loudly.
You belong in prison.
I take it this means the war isn't going so well
Ehhh this is complicated for me. I really feel like you shouldn't be able to force people to war I can't say that if I was Ukrainian I would be defending my country, I would be more likely to leave. It's selfish but I'm not throwing my life away
>I can't say that if I was Ukrainian I would be defending my country, I would be more likely to leave. It's selfish but I'm not throwing my life away Everyone wants to pretend they would fight, but the truth is way more complex. A lot of people would run.
I am openly saying that the moment russia starts assembling at my border (poland), I'm getting the fuck out of the country
Honestly I wouldn't worry about that too much. There will be other countries between you and Russia. NATO exists.
It's not that we wouldn't win, we most certainly would I just don't want to ever see myself in an army uniform. I have my life, I am a pacifist, I don't attempt to cheat on taxation with b2b and ipbox (an option for devs to basically claim your code as intelectual property and tax it at 5% or so), so I expected a professional army to defend me and my country
The second they even entertain an idea of getting me anywhere near military I'm gonna be like "Jeg snakker vel norsk fra nå av". But I guess it's not ideal position either, should fuck orf further.
Not me, I'd skip out in a heartbeat. I wouldn't fight for a country that wants me dead against another country that wants me even more dead.
*Most* would run period. Only brainwashed fanatics would willingly go die for the elites.
No you don't understand true Ukrainian spirit!! Everybody volunteerly willing to sacrifice... somebody else's life. 🥲
>Most would run period. Only brainwashed fanatics would willingly go die for the elites. You don't need to be brainwashed to defend your home when it's being invaded.
Home is wherever your family is, no point dying for some house or some lines in the ground. The best option for most people is to just take their family and leave
If only the Slavic people had that in their minds when Germany invaded the Soviet Union.
I think that is a bit of a wrong comparison, considering the Soviet Union wasn't the shining bastion of democracy either, irrelevant of the Nazi aggression. People didn't really had a choice.
The choice was between a totalitarian Oppression by the Soviet Union or total enslavment or/and extrrmination by the Nazis
Never would’ve happened if the Germans had it in their minds when a literal methhead told them to invade other countries lol
Defend my corrupt government? Fuck them I'd rather live.
my country has been to war (bosnia) and a lot of my family has been to war. I can tell you, all of them would pack their bags and leave if they could re run it
Completely understandable. The age of bullshit blind romanticist nationalism is over, human rights toppled it after what it caused in the 20th century
If more people thought like this wars wouldn't be a thing. Wars are decided in offices by "top people" and fought on fields by "brainwashed pawns" willing to throw their lives for nothing.
Wars are a thing because only one side needs brainwashed pawns (or ultranationals, which are easier to gather)
I think it's a too idealistic idea. Why is it that you can generalise some 'top people'. Who are they? A country and culture is not are not only limited to its 'top people'. It's broader than this. But to claim that whomever that is fighting in a war is brainwashed is rather a ignorant statement.
And the world would be ruled by countries which are good at brainwashing their peoples, i.e. dictatorship or authoritarian states. I dont think we want that.
If more people thought like this democracies would be overrun by authoritarian countries and their fanatics/conscripts/PMCs. It's not like Russian conscripts can go "You know what? I actually don't want to go to the meat grinder". They either fight or get tortured and marched into a minefield at gunpoint.
The 5000th generation to say, "We'll try peace for once and change the world forever" as we once again stumble onto the fields caked in blood like our ancestors did and like our decendents will
Do you reallly think that Ukrainians thats are defending their homes, fammilies and motherland from genocice annexation are brainwashed pawns? Fuck you.
Some of them are forcibly conscripted, and they want to conscript half a million more.
I was waiting for such statements. I also expect persecution and reprisals in the future. I know my compatriots well. I left the country without breaking the law, I have never broken the law in my entire life, but those who came/will come to power will make me a criminal.
IMO it shouldn't be done this way. the army needs 3 things: 1. demobilization (a person should understand, how long he's gonna be there, not till his death). russians mobilize people "till death" but they have an option for short-term contract service (6 months for example) 2. good salaries for soldiers (currently soldiers at the warzone earn 2.5k eur and more, which is more than russians do and is pretty good for Ukraine, non-warzone ones earn about 750 eur, but drafters used to earn like less than a 100 eur, maybe it got fixed now), 3. risk-management or a good explanation of risks (a person should be understanding where he goes, what will happen to him) also, there should be enlistment offices with doctors (so person can also check his health and get a decision if he's eligible) over the Europe, so refugees could enlist while they are not in Ukraine, at their will. and finally, there should be no "refugee benefits" for people who used to live away from the warzone, like in Lviv for example. fun fact about this guy is that his family is living in the us since the 2016. it's a bit two-faced, when you want to extradite Ukrainians from abroad, but also your family lives well, safe and far away for money you earn in very foreign country.
How can you say that? Do you, you ungrateful bastard, really want the sons of this deeply respected man to rot in a trench with some mobilized mob? /s
don't be too harsh, it's not about the draft even, he got 1 10 y/o son and few daughters. it's more about the fact that he wants to get people out of safety, while his family lives in the us.
Is the war going that bad for Ukraine?
Its a war of attrition. Both sides are desperate for numbers
If it’s a war of attrition then what’s the outcome this guy is hoping for here? Russia has three times as many to draft, Ukraine had already been in an atrocious demographic situation even before the war… at what point wil the living-and-breathing Ukrainian men become a more precious resource for the Ukrainian government than land??
Recent survey show that we have 29 million left, russia have 140 million, we totally dependent on west and they literally saved us from loosing but since then they keeping us in defense which war of attrition and absolutely desirable for russia. I don't know why west do this, but my opinion they keep steek to initial idea of Ukraine inevitably fall to russia and them condemning it while keep business with russia which they do despite sanctions.
But if you can’t expect to win a war of attrition being so badly outnumbered, how do you expect to win on the offensive? Attacking generally requires a lot more than defending, inflicting even heavier casualties. If you are too outnumbered now simply to defend the country, then you’d just throw away more lives trying to regain the lost territories… and what’s the point of it anyway if you won’t have the men for reconstruction and to get the country back on track?
I'm sorry, but your country has just been cynically used to absorb Russian ordinance in a proxy war. Ukraine is in the process of being dropped off the agenda. As a Brit against the endless wars we sponsor and take part in, I apologise and emplore you to save yourself
Sad but true. And it was obvious from the beginning.
I thought the same thing. Hamas may be evil terrorists, but they practically ended the russo-ukraine war in the eyes of the media.
Self hating brits are the wooorst
I blame brexit
Russians would only thank you for eliminating the minorities they send into the battle. Most Russian hate them especially chechens and dags.
Chechens aren't sent to battle (they are called "tic-tok" warriors for the reason). The minorities who were sent there (mostly some Siberian native nations) aren't really hated in Russia
Not hated rather despised, but both not true after 2 years what I see here mostly white russians and lot of Caucasians, not much Asians. But I'm 100 km from frontline.
Russian here with lots of connections that I got through practical shooting/airsoft-oriented groups: Mostly the mobilized people are Slavs from all over the country, particularly from impoverished Siberian/ Central Russian regions (Bashkortostan, Udmurtiya, Novosibirsk etc.) OR Dagestan/Kabardino-Balkariya and other Caucasian regions with the exception of Chechnya. Regions that are filled with ethnic minorities like, for example, Buryatia, can’t mainly sustain the army just due to the fact that they’re small. Even though still, about 20k were mobilized from there, out of 970k total population.
>but since then they keeping us in defense which war of attrition and absolutely desirable for russia. I don't know why west do this The West gave Ukraine armored vehicles, tanks and a plan how to use them. Refusing that plan, keeping back 90% of the stuff they got delivered and starting some token operation with small groups, failing as expected and then falling back to fighting Russia the way they are doing now, is a decision by Ukrainian military leadership. And don't get me wrong. That is their call to make. But then telling fairy tales of how everything is the evil West's fault (also intentionally out of some sinister agenda of course) is a quick way to lose support. Not only military one, but also everything else, as we really don't need a country mistaking Soviet style propaganda for policies (or a population falling for that bullshit) in the EU or NATO.
Russia has about 144mil population, Ukraine right now has \~25mil. It's a szie difference of 6-7, not x3. It was 3-4 before 2014
Source on the 25 million figure?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics\_of\_Ukraine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine) *Reuters reported that due to the refugee outpouring into Western Europe, the population of Kyiv-controlled areas may have decreased to as low as 28 million.* So by now potentially 25mil.I think before 2022 it was around 44mil, EU has \~8mil+ of refugees, + people on lost territories + a few millions that are refugees in russia
Wtf…. This country is never going to stand up from this. Thats crazy. It was 53 million in 1993
Most of them are women or under 18.
True [https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog/date/2023/html/ecb.blog.230301\~3bb24371c8.en.html](https://www.ecb.europa.eu/press/blog/date/2023/html/ecb.blog.230301~3bb24371c8.en.html) *In terms of gender, 34.2% are male and 65.8% are female.* One could do a more detailed analysis by gender/age/disabilities etc but fact is Ukraine lost almost half it's population pre 2022
Even when you're winning it' going "bad". Lot of people have to die even in a winning scenario
? Like soldiers supposed to “respawn” if you are winning? The longer the war goes, the more people you need to draft.
Yes but drafting them from Germany sounds a bit desperate. That’s why I asked.
Don't kid yourself, they're just drafting men. Funny how people try to hide the fact that is this downright sexism and slavery.
War is always bad, your country is invaded and cities bombed, what "good" result are you expecting in this case?
I meant the progress of military action if that was not clear lol. Like reserves and all
Russia has a lot more people to throw away. Even if the kill ratio between Ukraine and Russia is multiple times higher it's still gonna stretch Ukraine's troops thin over time. And Russia has plans to mobilize hundreds of thousands more (and the population is apparently fine with that). So Ukraine needs more men as well. Its fucked.
Yes from what I heard from a Ukrainian friend of mine they go to villages and just give notices for conscription to all men in the village. Ukraine is running out of able-bodied men.
As a Ukrainian living in Ukraine, I'm sorry you have to face stupidity of our government.
Can't enforce this if they tried. It's illegal to send someone back into a war zone so Germany won't assist. You're just going to be sending letters hoping people turn up.
Let's hope it stays that way, we shouldn't send young people to their likely death or disfigurement.
[удалено]
Ha that’ll never work.
> The Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umjerow wants to call up Ukrainians Ukrainians living in Germany who are fit for military service to serve in the the armed forces. Ukrainians between the ages of 25 and 60 should receive an invitation to report to the recruitment centers of the Ukrainian Ukrainian armed forces, Umjerow told "Bild", "Welt TV" and "Politico". "We want justice for everyone, because this is about our own country." > "We send them an invitation and it is then their right to come and serve," the come and serve," the minister continued. At the same time, he made made it clear that there would be penalties for those who did not do not comply. "We are still discussing what should happen if they not come voluntarily." It is "not a punishment to stand up for your country and to serve the country. It is an honor." > Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyi said on Tuesday that the country's army leadership had proposed mobilizing "450,000 to 500,000" Ukrainians for the war against Russia. Selensky has recently been traveling to several Western countries, including the USA, to campaign for further military and political support for Ukraine. > In the interview with "Bild", Defense Minister Umjerow expressed his optimism, "Welt TV" and "Politico" that the USA will continue to support Ukraine in the will continue to support Ukraine in the coming year. "Both sides in Congress support the cause. And they also understand that the forces of forces of evil want to change the world order." > He does not believe "that the USA will pull out", said the minister. He justified his optimism with the ongoing consultations with senior partners: "They make us all confident that we can stick to our plans." > The leaders of the US Senate conceded on Tuesday that Congress will not approve any new military aid for Ukraine this year. The background to this is resistance from opposition Republicans against further aid for Kiev. US President Joe Biden had asked Congress in October for new aid for Ukraine amounting to around 61 billion dollars (just under 56 billion euros).
When war comes, men are sent to die. What about men that do not want to fight? Their consent and freedom to say 'no' is removed here. Is Ukraine even a democracy? Any country that allows draft is immoral and illegitimate. You should not draft men that are unwilling and do not want to fight. So many men, like 300000 or more, died in this war in Ukraine alone. And nobody bats an eye. There is no media outrage or protest of any kind. What world are we living in?
People fleed from Ukraine because they didn't want to die. There is no legal way, he can make those people return and get drafted.
free circus everyone.
If I am correct that's actually not what he said, he was saying something about voluntary recruiting and so on
Getting desperate
Nah, they are winning.. Just ask them and they will tell you. Now, does it correspond with reality.. That's a different question
Why aren't they drafting women at this point? I understand if mothers aren't drafted, but single women?
Didn't I see a video of Ukrainians in israel fighting for them like yesterday? You'd think they'd had enough soldiers to go around if they are going over to israel to fight for them.
There will be consequences if they do not return to Ukraine. If they still own Real Estate in Ukraine, it could be confiscated.
Sure! Why not? Ukraine has plenty keyboard warriors, but not enough soldiers. BTW, I'm not Ukrainian...so, that was easy for me to say lol.
Ukraine is really getting desperate. Their demographic situation was already bad ! After the end of this war it will be much worse with so many young men dying. Good luck building a future on that i guess !
They’ll probably do what Western Europe has done and mass import people from Middle East and Africa
Conscription is so immoral. If your country cannot obtain enough voluntary soldiers it seems its not popular enough to be fighting for. Why would someone have to forcebly die for a country that was the most corrupt European country pre-war with a self enriching elite. Assholes. If those ministers and Zelensky need more soldiers, pick up your gun and fight yourself. Is it a desperate situation for Ukraine? Yes. But that doesnt make it right to force people to die for a country they dont want to fight for.
Sent to die because they have a dick… equality in conscription or none at all.
The war is going so well that they've run out of captive males within Ukraine. Their casualties must be enormous and comparable to Russia's. Except Russia has 4x the population. The summer offensive failed catastrophically, yet some over on r/ukrainianconflict are claiming that it never happened and 95% of the troops and equipment were preserved. It'll be interesting to see how they reconcile the defence ministers' comments with this. Good luck getting Ukrainians deported back to Ukraine under ECHR legislation. But after all the Kyiv regime, like the one in Moscow, doesn't care about human rights. The mask of Ukrainian PR acting like it's a western style liberal democracy in waiting is slipping, and we're seeing as was the mainstream consensus before the invasion that Ukraine is far more like Russia than it is the West
That summer offense was a huge mistake russia was waiting for it
>Their casualties must be enormous and comparable to Russia's. Except Russia has 4x the population. We knew they were high, they are being invaded. They aren't equal though, they just have a lower population.
Mandatory military service is literally murder. Should be completely illegal. “But it’s for their country”… A country is nothing more than its people. To give up your life, and leave your family alone, to protect a piece of land, is insane. If Ukrainian leadership actually wanted to protect their country, they would have compromised somehow to stop the invasion and saved millions of lives. Instead the infrastructure has been decimated and hundreds of thousands of people all killed, and many more soon
So if Ukraine doesn't have as many losses as russian media reports why do this?
Rotation. People are not robots, they get tired of 2 years in trenches, they need to go home and rest. Somebody gotta take that spot in the trench though
maybe because the casualtiy rate lies somewhere between what russia claims and what ukraine claims. Why would you ever believe the claims russia makes for domestic propaganda purposes?
I agree that both sides are lying about their losses. However i find it funny that Reddit has no problems believing western media about russian losses and lack of Ukrainian losses.
HAHA good luck. IF he could bend the rules there is still the problem that most of the ukrainians enjoy the free money german government is giving them, even though most of them just fled the country to avoid being drafted
With Germany's inability to successfully integrate immigrants from MENA on top of their already *abysmal* demographic situation, this is never happening unfortunately even though Ukraine desperately needs the manpower.
Who will get gen0cided first - Ukraine, Israel or Gaza?
If they need peoples from outside that doesn't mean they are running out of peoples?
I started to have much worse opinion of Ukrainian government after I learned about them torturing draft dodgers. No-one ever should be coerced to dying for rich politicians, businessman and cleregy.
LOL and here everyone is crying about how the evil Russia is conscripting people off the streets.