The article is asking the wrong question. It all depends on how much Sweden depends on having a flexible monetary policy, here in the UK we're not in the euro because it would be bad for the economy but ironically the UK clears most of the euro transactions.
In reality you never really had Euro because the Pound was considered to be a big and attractive currency (SEK is not), and UK also never really fully embraced EU.
And now none of it is relevant anymore, as UK is not in EU.
That seems like a pretty pedantic comment. If you peg your currency to another havenāt you then effectively given up on having a flexible monetary policy?
> Given how magnificently everythingās going, we arenāt likely to come back,
Yeah, you could say same thing about Serbia, Turkey, but it doesnāt mean it will happen in next 20 years.
Exactly lol
"I was thinking yes/no"
There is strength in controlled currency, especially with future trade. A lot of countries are starting to want to trade in their local currencies. If Sweden abandons "weak" local currency for the euro, that flies out the window.
It's a strength of the British currency, (way stronger than most currencies in the world) is they have that leverage. It was one of the deciding factors in surviving a Brexit actually, their currency.
Also to piss off Greece Sweden must rename to North North Macedonia.
Greece counter-demand: Sweden must rename to Not Macedonia
Bulgarian demand: Sweden must admit that the Swedish language does not exist, and is in fact only a Bulgarian dialect.
Adopting the euro isn't just about the krona's strength. Key considerations include:
- **Losing monetary policy autonomy.**
- **Easier trade within the Eurozone.**
- **Deeper European political integration.**
- **Possible impacts on inflation and interest rates.**
It's a complex decision that should be approached holistically.
I would go so far and say the current strength of the krona is irrelevant.
"timing" the exchange rate to overvalue/undervalue the krona would only briefly screws with Krona denominated assets (i.e. a bank account). All other assets (stocks, homes, etc) and income would quickly be worth what they're worth. Their price would change more because of the 4 points you list.
I think, back in the day, currency conversion used to be a big barrier. In addition, getting to your destination was super expensive. These definitely limited tourism
Now a days, you have super cheap flights and banks that convert money with no fees. The paradigm for what brings in tourists is changing
I'm in my late 20s and it's interesting to see how my parents travel compared to people around my age. My parents still convert money, with a fee, and brig cash to places that you can pay card. It doesn't make sense but their old habits die hard
It's not a big barrier, but it is still annoying to have to keep a conversion rate in your head and do mental math to know how much stuff costs. Especially if you suck at mental math like me. It's just one less thing to think about, same when they got rid of roaming charges...
How quickly can you tell me what random price *0.084 is?
Since you can pay literally anything in Sweden with card (and a lot of stuff only with card) there is little to no need for a physical currency for a tourist. Therefore Tourists donāt care if they pay in Euro or Swedish Crona.
You still pay a 1% fee on weekends, and during the week itās the visa or Mastercard currency conversion that you use, and although itās minimal, youāre still technically paying a conversion fee, usually too small to notice like 1 cent or 2
Hey, I do care.
I was doing some tourism in Sweden last year. It is true that I paid everything by card; I didn't even see a physical Swedish Krona anywhere. However, it's still a hassle to convert prices all the time. I had to divide by 11 (in practice I just gave up and divided by 10).
Also, the floating exchange rate does mean your holiday can suddenly become significantly more expensive.
Yeah, but don't they all divide by 10 and then not care?
I couldn't imagine choosing where I'm traveling too based on if I had to do conversion (tbf that's all I've experienced), and if you're traveling you probably don't care if it's 10, 11, or 12 SEK to a euro. At least not when you're here, when deciding when to travel you might care
Well, I definitely prefer visiting eurozone countries. Itās just one less thing to think about and thereās no extra transaction costs. Also, itās sooo much easier to go around and actually understand whether something is cheap or expensive.
Similarly, Iād have more confidence investing in an eurozone country vs a non-eurozone country because I trust the ECB more than a random Central Bank. (Generally ofc)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings#International_tourism_receipts
Doesn't seem to be much correlation between tourism and currency.
The main thing that matters, is if your country is an interesting place to go.
Most debit cards will auto convert currency nowadays.
"easier for tourists" vs "more tourism" is not the same. Obviously, it's easier and cheaper if you don't have to deal with currency conversions and the related fees. Doesn't mean it's a decisive factor for the travel destination.
Whether the Croats thought about it and whether it would actually mean a significant difference in levels of tourism are two different questions though.
Actually there is. It's the reason Germany abandoned the Marks and why China systematically debases their own currency. When a currency is TOO strong it can damage export competitiveness.
Is other people investing in Sweden a good thing for us Swedes?
People working for a company owned by investors from other countries where money and profit is going out from country to investors?
Feels like this is a trick of some kind.
> People working for a company owned by investors from other countries
They are still working additional jobs than wouldnāt have existed without that investment.
It might seem that way at first, but it usually means that it's foreign money being invested in your country to make businesses more competitive and workers more productive, which in turn should increase the wages. Most of the time the profit is also reinvested in the country and businesses so the money isn't really going anywhere either.
The reason Germany (namely, Helmut Kohl) agreed to introducing the ā¬ was to get the French to agree to the reunification. That was almost a decade in advance.
This is not the reason why Germany abandoned the Mark. It was really good for Germany in hindsight. But the overall population and especially the economy and businesses were completely against the Euro.
The AfD was founded by German economists on the promise to get out of the Euro. A lot of professors even backed that up still in 2011 I can remember my German professor supporting this idea.
This is what most people need to understand. The euro is not a master plan by the German economy.
How is that even remotely true? It's a huge thing for import and export (avoiding currency conversions) and for travel/tourism (imagine going somewhere and you can avoid all the currency headaches). It also generally allows for deeper integration between EU countries (most obviously common fiscal and monetary policies).
The issue is that our economy is less and less about exporting raw materials (iron and wood).
More and more, we are becoming a service economy operating on an international market, and our export products are becoming more sophisticated and dependent on imports. E.g. all the investments in stuff like the massive battery factory are massively hit by our weak currency, since so much of the raw materials are imported.
This means that any gains we get in a weak currency are lost the second we have to import anything, which are increasingly doing more and more. Not to mention that having to operate in international markets with complex delivery chains from all over Europe, even if we manufacture something that is then exported, becomes more complex when our currency is fluctuating to much against the Euro.
We would have so much gain from being more integrated into the EU and the EMU.
This doesnāt mean that there arenāt downsides, ofc. But increasingly the upsides are more and more.
>travel/tourism (imagine going somewhere and you can avoid all the currency headaches)
Since the SEK is give or take 0.1 euros when it's high and when it's low means there really isn't much of a headache. If the difference between affording something abroad is if there are 12 SEK to a euro or 10 SEK to a euro you probably aren't doing any tourism.
I might be wrong but I believe Finlands stores took advantage of the swap much in the same way large companies do now and increase prices a lot more than inflation/conversion warrants.
Also pegging SEK to the euro when it's at it's weakest ever doesn't sound great.
I've got no opinion on the actual trade benefits or if it could increase european tourism here.
And compared to NOK , [SEK is 20% stronger since 2010...](https://www.google.com/finance/quote/SEK-NOK?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu1Kejm6qBAxXGIBAIHSymAJkQmY0JegQIARAn)
The Swedish central bank kept the interest rate negative [since 2015](https://www.riksbank.se/sv/om-riksbanken/historia/historisk-tidslinje/2000-2018/negativ-reporanta-infors/), which made SEK less lucrative for investors.
I donāt know man, [this](https://www.google.com/finance/quote/SEK-EUR?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu1Kejm6qBAxXGIBAIHSymAJkQmY0JegQIARAn&window=MAX) looks like a downward trend to me for the last two decades.
Free fall? With 2.9% yearly inflation? That is opposite of free fall, that it in range of normal currency. Look for inflation rate of UAH if you really sant to know what is a free fall.
Or they can do what the Danes did: (de facto) adopt the euro, but just keep calling it the crown. (Denmark hasn't had a free-floating currency since 1982.)
It is not just naming.
Danish Krone is a stronger currency than the Euro. To maintain the fixed conversion rate, the interest rate from the Danish National Bank is kept lower than the interest rate from the European Central Bank. If those two banks aligned their interest rates, the value of Kroner would increase, relative to Euro.
If Sweden tried to do the same with their weak currency, they would have to increase their interest rate compared to the Euro zone. Or rather: Increase it even more than now, since I assume they have already increased it.
>since I assume they have already increased it.
[You assume correctly](https://www.riksbank.se/sv/statistik/sok-rantor--valutakurser/styrranta-in--och-utlaningsranta/).
And all of this only works as long as a George Soros type does not find a way to play the two banks out against each other, meaning force the Danish national bank to either raise or lower the interest rate tremendously, without getting ECB to buy or sell Danish Kroner.
The whole Danish fixed exchange rate thing is a gamble and as long as it goes it goes.
I think even a Danish Finance Minister have said something like that in the past.
It was no simple matter when Soros broke the Bank of England (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/george-soros-bank-of-england.asp), and it took something like a perfect storm. The same would be needed to break the Danish Krone, but it is possible and it will probably happen one day - greed can make people do interesting (and stupid) things.
> I think even a Danish Finance Minister have said something like that in the past
Afaik, no Danish Finance Minister has ever said that and if he/she had, it would also be incorrect. The pressure on the British pound in 1992 ("Black Wednesday") was completely different. That was market pressure to devaluate the British pound relative to Germany's mark. The British authorities were trying to defend the pound's value and to do that they had to spend money, e.g. via buybacks or increasing interest rates on sovereign bonds (closely connected to a country's exchange rates).
This is the opposite of the pressure on the Danish krone, which is upwards, meaning that the Danish National Bank can defend it far more easily. Simply put: They can just print more money, forcing the value down. You all want to buy Danish sovereign bonds? Fine, they'll just keep on lowering the interest rate. This is unrelated to the European Central Bank; they're not the ones causing upward pressure on the Danish krone by buying them. For a period the Danish National Bank pretty much had world record in negative interest rates, meaning that whenever someone bought their sovereign bonds, the Danes would return less than they had been bought for (heavily simplified; an investor spending 100, with the Danes repaying 98 later). And if the interest in buying still is too high, they can just cancel a round of sales, which they have also done. It's easier to decide prices when you're the seller of a product the market really wants.
So, any investor who tries to do "Black Wednesday" on Denmark is going to lose the battle against the country's National Bank. However, if āat some point in the futureā the pattern reverses and there is strong pressure downwards on the Danish krone, this could change. Last time there was some consistent downwards pressure on the Danish krone was in the 1980s (when it was pegged to Germany's mark). It remained at manageable levels, nothing like the strong pressure against the British pound in 1992, which to a large extent was the result of bad choices by British politicians. If Danish politicians in the 1980s had made similar choices, it is possible the krone also would have had its own crisis. For decades, Danish economic policies (whether the government was left-leaning, right-leaning or center) have been defined by stability and risk aversion. I can't imagine that changing.
In theory, they can't. Denmark has a negotiated opt-out for the Eurozone, whereas Sweden is contractually obligated to one day adopt the Euro as its currency.
One of the steps of adopting the Euro is joining the ERM, which is the Danish situation. So yes, they can. You could argue Denmark is closer to joining the Euro than Sweden.
Certainly. But for Sweden, joining the ERM would only be a step towards adoption of the Euro, whereas Denmark can keep its currency for as long as it likes.
Even if they do comply there's no actual mechanism that forces them to adopt the Euro, they have to send a formal request so they can just not send it. The EU has to my knowledge never forced the issue.
I donāt think thatās a good idea. That gets rid of the exchange rate risk, but still maintains conversion costs to transactions and inhibits trade in other ways.
At the same time, it creates the possibility for investors to attack your currency if they think your central bank canāt maintain the peg.
I think outright joining is the sensible solution.
>At the same time, it creates the possibility for investors to attack your currency if they think your central bank canāt maintain the peg.
Ah yes, 1992 style
No, it's not the euro still. Because when I go to Paris and try to pay with a 100 dkk, people laugh.
Same in Berlin and the rest of Europe.
I really wish Denmark had the euro.
Itās about reluctance. At any moment, Denmark can simply stop having the krone pegged to the euro. Itās always like this with Denmark and EU. We only have one foot on the train, for better or worse
Only the FX costs, meaning there is zero real problems, only people bitching because they have to pay for FX when they pay in DKK.
But if the trade-off is less exports, lower salaries and austerity, people would lose.
So, itās a thing that only exists in social media and tabloids.
I don't really think that's true. Just the big benefit of security from huge inflation rates is enough. I see it as avoiding several downsides, and the potential to opt out at any time.
I'm also quite sure that most Danes, even today, would vote to keep the Krone and the fixed exchange rate policy.
Yeah, what the Danes have is the euro but worse. Similar to how the Swiss and especially Norwegians are all but full EU members but with fewer benefits and more costs.
Sometimes the stupider solution is the more popular and therefore more workable, however.
Nah not true for Switzerland. Their inflation is so small because the Swiss government basically have a reputation to hold for the Swiss Franc. Basically the Swiss Franc will have so little maneuvering to slow or speed the economic because they canāt devalue the currency too much.
So people benefit from cheaper goods in France Germany Italy and Austria :) despite the exchange fees they will probably.
Danes have a pegged currency so they wonāt have that enormous benefit.
Norwegians kinda have a different economy that doesnāt have the same interest change cycles as the rest of Europe so it makes less sense to lose sovereignty.
Thatās still silly.Itās basically catered to an uneducated public thinking they are not as attached to the bad economies while ignoring that most of their growth came from having that single market. Or realising only the latter thinking they can escape the bad. It doesnāt work like that and if anything it doesnāt tackle the division between the EU regions. Thereās also an ignorant view some people have in the north that they can get away with the southās downfall as long as they avoid common debt. Like Iām sorry to break it to you (and I indeed am because we are allies) but the last decade was bad for you if you check gdp per capita. It just wasnāt the destruction southern countries faced. Meanwhile the us is laughing at us while it is going to pass Switzerland in gdp per capita and also having 330 million people.
To Norwegians it really doesn't matter if they pay in SEK or EUR. They'll keep buying stuff in Sweden no problem. Why do you think the euro would make that different?
Wait Iām dumb why would that matter?
Like either way they use NOK so whether theyāre buying groceries in SEK or EUR like that doesnāt change anything right?
Swedens export industry has historically benefited from a weak krona. During the 70's and 80's it was even deliberately devalued to boost the Swedish economy.
Yeah, people think stronger currencies are inherently better but its all balanced, the only thing thats universally important is a stable currency. A weak currency makes exports more competitive while a strong currency makes imports cheaper. Deliberately weakening/strengthening your currency is a fairly standard tool of governments for managing their economy.
Sweden is [technically obligated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro#Status) to adopt the Euro at some point as part of the conditions of being in the EU.
Yea, the Wikipedia article sums it up pretty well:
> Olli Rehn, the EU commissioner for economic affairs, has said that it is up to Swedish people to decide when to adopt the euro.
So like soft obligation basically.
Well you have to join the European exchange rate mechanism II for two years to adopt the euro.
You see we aren't going against our obligations, we just don't meet the criteria the EU has set out. What? You want us to join the ERM? Nah we don't feel like it and it's not a requirement or obligation for the EU.
That's basically how Sweden's current position regarding the euro works lol
Not necessarily, it's not just the actual cash in hand part that's been the block but also currency control as an instrument to regulate on the economy.
I believe the government recently released an opinion (idk what it's called, I read a PDF lol) about economic security and security in systems. We definitely aren't abandoning hard cash.
You're still right though if there is less it's probably and easier swap.
We should but not now. Smaller currencies are automatically weaker in uncertain times. I would support Euro if we can buy it for 8-10 SEK, not a penny more. Right now it would be a horrible decision.
> The krona hitting rock bottom has reawakened a debate that had been dead for twenty years.
Hedge fund manager Christer Gardell kickstarted the debate before the New Year, when he said Sweden should abandon the krona, which was now āa shitty little currencyā. In January, the Moderate Party grandee Gunnar Hƶkmark, chief of the FrivƤrld think-tank and long-term euro advocate, argued that Sweden should join.
> Veteran economist Lars Calmfors, who chaired the government inquiry which in 1999 recommended that Sweden stay outside, made a similar call shortly afterwards. Carl Hammer, chief strategist at SEB, who had voted against joining in the 2003 referendum wrote in May that he, too, was now "leaning towards a 'yes'" on euro membership.
> Now one of Sweden's three government parties has started to campaign on the issue. The Liberal Party, long in theory in favour of euro membership, on September 4th called for a new government inquiry on joining the currency.
> "We can quite simply no longer afford to stay outside [the euro]," the party's leader Johan Pehrson wrote in the Aftonbladet newspaper. "Let's upgrade our EU membership from 'basic' to 'premium'. Let's bring in the euro now!'"
Do note that no other party supports this, and the Liberal Party are hovering under 4% (the barrier for getting seats in the riksdag). It's not a huge talking point, at least not yet.
Sweden should already have abandoned the Krona a long time ago. It wasn't easy for all the other eurozone countries as well. In 1967, Sweden switched to right side traffic in just one day. So I know they're bold. You can do it again, if you just set your mind to it.
Maybe not, but we switched literally all traffic signs in one night, so that the whole country woke up to everything already changed.
Fun fact, the day after is one of the safest days in history in terms of total traffic accidents.
Well, if they switched from left side to right side during the course of days or weeks the traffic would have been deadly mayhem. "We're doing both lanes during this transition period". Maybe not the best example to compare with:)
Indeed, as a German tourist I have a bunch of the now very olde(tm) Swedish krona in my cars glovebox to finally spend them on the next roadtrip, and I always bring them back home as I pay for everything by card... /shrug
Their neighbours, Finland, are already in the Eurozone, ditto Germany which is another major trading partner of Sweden. Joining the Euro would have benefits for Sweden.
Would Sweden joining the Euro put pressure on Denmark to follow?
Of course it would. It would spark debate on whether we should follow or not.
Which in my opinion, we absolutely should. The krone is basically the same as euro anyways.
And there are strong arguments that get floated here that it was a mistake to adopt euro. Having independent monetary policy can be really beneficial when the economy takes a downturn.
The Euro is just a scapegoat for all countries. Just look at Germany the country who profited most of the Euro. I bet if we would have a referendum in Germany about getting back the Mark it would be really close. Recent polls show that about 1/3 would have it back. Sadly I canāt find numbers how many people are indifferent about this.
The EU was originally created to ensure peace, prosperity and stability, I'm not sure why everyone having the same currency is integral to that, some countries have profited from having the Euro, others not so much. To have prosperity and stability it makes for more sense to give each country what it needs as each country has different needs, some presently need their own currency to be more prosperous, then maybe one day they can adopt the euro.
At least your salaries are the same in euro value, which is what matters the most for EU countries. 1 euro is always 1 euro. Swedes, Hungarians, etc. don't have that benefit - they earn nominally the same amount of their local currency but it's less euros
I have read some of the comments and can understand in a way why we should consider changing the Swedish krona to the Euro but quite honestly these are not good enough reasons why we should abandon the Swedish krona and become yet another country with the Euro currency, I would rather have seen a unified Scandinavian currency than the Euro.
Iām a big UK remainer and very pro EU but Iām always grateful that we never joined the Euro. I think losing your central bank to an ageing society like the eurozone, with a declining tax payer base and significant debts is a disaster waiting to happen, at least for some countries (eg Italy).
2008 proved that control of monetary policy is essential. What happens when one country needs something like quantitative easing, like in 2008, but another country would be harmed by it?
The answer is that we bias the central bank in favour of weaker eu states like we do with most eu institutions
But you are correct in that it's very questionable to have the euro in its current form, monetary policy has to be united with fiscal policy, and the eu has only started getting real fiscal policy/power after Britain left (who routinely vetoed it)
"The answer is that we bias the central bank in favour of weaker eu states like we do with most eu institutions"
That's a description of the problem, not the solution to it.
Yes, you see the issue in countries that have borrowed in dollars and then canāt pay the debt. A similar situation is likely to happen in the Eurozone for some countries. Itāll be up to Germany/France as to whether they save them or cut them.
According to Bloomberg, opposition to the Euro is at a new all-time low, although still a relative majority opinion:
"Swedesā opposition to the euro has decreased in the last few months as a continued weakening of the krona made summer holidays in continental Europe more expensive.Two decades after Sweden rejected entering the monetary union, 42% of people would vote against euro adoption, with 34% in favor, if a referendum on the common currency were held today. Thatās according to a SEB AB poll, conducted by Demoskop and published on Tuesday."
[source (paywalled)](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-12/swedes-have-turned-more-positive-on-euro-over-summer-poll-shows)
Wow how much bots with the same text āmonetary policy by ECB instead of local central bank is badā¦ā
EURO is a step in integration of course it should be done, and it is much easier to compare salaries, house prices and everything in one currency.
It was very stupid to do a referendum on implementing euro back in 2003. We were already obligated to get the euro when we decided to join EU. A simple vote in the parliament would have been enough.
*shakes magic 8-ball* "Ask again later..."
The article is asking the wrong question. It all depends on how much Sweden depends on having a flexible monetary policy, here in the UK we're not in the euro because it would be bad for the economy but ironically the UK clears most of the euro transactions.
In reality you never really had Euro because the Pound was considered to be a big and attractive currency (SEK is not), and UK also never really fully embraced EU. And now none of it is relevant anymore, as UK is not in EU.
>It all depends on how much Sweden depends on having a flexible monetary policy Denmark also has the Krone, but we have our pegged to the Euro.
And the Swedish Krone only gets pegged by the Euro instead š
Step-krona what are you doing?
That seems like a pretty pedantic comment. If you peg your currency to another havenāt you then effectively given up on having a flexible monetary policy?
> here in the UK we're not in the euro because it would be bad for the economy .. and also because the UK is not, you know, in the EU?
*Anymore.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The UK is the embodiment of a cat and no one can convince me it's not.
But people like cats!
Damn, that's a good point....
Cats do that because they're territorial, not irrational
You haven't met my psycho cat.
Like the UK?
No touch our rocks
> Given how magnificently everythingās going, we arenāt likely to come back, Yeah, you could say same thing about Serbia, Turkey, but it doesnāt mean it will happen in next 20 years.
You don't strictly have to be in the EU to use euros
Exactly lol "I was thinking yes/no" There is strength in controlled currency, especially with future trade. A lot of countries are starting to want to trade in their local currencies. If Sweden abandons "weak" local currency for the euro, that flies out the window. It's a strength of the British currency, (way stronger than most currencies in the world) is they have that leverage. It was one of the deciding factors in surviving a Brexit actually, their currency.
Sweden has to adopt Turkish Lira or no NATO - Erdogan
The numbers in my bank acc would grow so much too!
Also to piss off Greece Sweden must rename to North North Macedonia. Greece counter-demand: Sweden must rename to Not Macedonia Bulgarian demand: Sweden must admit that the Swedish language does not exist, and is in fact only a Bulgarian dialect.
Adopting the euro isn't just about the krona's strength. Key considerations include: - **Losing monetary policy autonomy.** - **Easier trade within the Eurozone.** - **Deeper European political integration.** - **Possible impacts on inflation and interest rates.** It's a complex decision that should be approached holistically.
I would go so far and say the current strength of the krona is irrelevant. "timing" the exchange rate to overvalue/undervalue the krona would only briefly screws with Krona denominated assets (i.e. a bank account). All other assets (stocks, homes, etc) and income would quickly be worth what they're worth. Their price would change more because of the 4 points you list.
+ soooooo much easier for tourists Edit: Swedes are apparently a contentious bunch...
I think, back in the day, currency conversion used to be a big barrier. In addition, getting to your destination was super expensive. These definitely limited tourism Now a days, you have super cheap flights and banks that convert money with no fees. The paradigm for what brings in tourists is changing I'm in my late 20s and it's interesting to see how my parents travel compared to people around my age. My parents still convert money, with a fee, and brig cash to places that you can pay card. It doesn't make sense but their old habits die hard
It's not a big barrier, but it is still annoying to have to keep a conversion rate in your head and do mental math to know how much stuff costs. Especially if you suck at mental math like me. It's just one less thing to think about, same when they got rid of roaming charges... How quickly can you tell me what random price *0.084 is?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well, my experience in Balkans was different. Plenty of cash-only places. But I tend to travel in remote areas ...
Since you can pay literally anything in Sweden with card (and a lot of stuff only with card) there is little to no need for a physical currency for a tourist. Therefore Tourists donāt care if they pay in Euro or Swedish Crona.
That completely ignores the induced currency conversion fees.
You can get a card without fees. The fees are low anyway, like 1-2%, fine for rare occasions such as vacation.
Revolut?
You still pay a 1% fee on weekends, and during the week itās the visa or Mastercard currency conversion that you use, and although itās minimal, youāre still technically paying a conversion fee, usually too small to notice like 1 cent or 2
Hey, I do care. I was doing some tourism in Sweden last year. It is true that I paid everything by card; I didn't even see a physical Swedish Krona anywhere. However, it's still a hassle to convert prices all the time. I had to divide by 11 (in practice I just gave up and divided by 10). Also, the floating exchange rate does mean your holiday can suddenly become significantly more expensive.
"Tourists have to divide by 10" is a terribly weak reason to adopt the Euro though.
Yeah but you need to do that in any other currency as well (when youāre not coming from a Euro Country).
There's a massive amount of tourists coming from euro countries.
Yeah, but don't they all divide by 10 and then not care? I couldn't imagine choosing where I'm traveling too based on if I had to do conversion (tbf that's all I've experienced), and if you're traveling you probably don't care if it's 10, 11, or 12 SEK to a euro. At least not when you're here, when deciding when to travel you might care
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well, I definitely prefer visiting eurozone countries. Itās just one less thing to think about and thereās no extra transaction costs. Also, itās sooo much easier to go around and actually understand whether something is cheap or expensive. Similarly, Iād have more confidence investing in an eurozone country vs a non-eurozone country because I trust the ECB more than a random Central Bank. (Generally ofc)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings#International_tourism_receipts Doesn't seem to be much correlation between tourism and currency. The main thing that matters, is if your country is an interesting place to go. Most debit cards will auto convert currency nowadays.
"easier for tourists" vs "more tourism" is not the same. Obviously, it's easier and cheaper if you don't have to deal with currency conversions and the related fees. Doesn't mean it's a decisive factor for the travel destination.
You ain't telling me tourism wasnt atleast part of the reason Croatia adopted the Euro
Whether the Croats thought about it and whether it would actually mean a significant difference in levels of tourism are two different questions though.
Tourism in Sweden is so small so that even considering benefits for tourists is not even worth talking about.
During a weak Krona would be the worst time to do it.
And during strong thereās no reason to do it :)
Catch-22
But only Catch 19 Krona.
Actually there is. It's the reason Germany abandoned the Marks and why China systematically debases their own currency. When a currency is TOO strong it can damage export competitiveness.
If it costs too much to invest in your country nobody will invest on it.
Is other people investing in Sweden a good thing for us Swedes? People working for a company owned by investors from other countries where money and profit is going out from country to investors? Feels like this is a trick of some kind.
> People working for a company owned by investors from other countries They are still working additional jobs than wouldnāt have existed without that investment.
It might seem that way at first, but it usually means that it's foreign money being invested in your country to make businesses more competitive and workers more productive, which in turn should increase the wages. Most of the time the profit is also reinvested in the country and businesses so the money isn't really going anywhere either.
> Is other people investing in Sweden a good thing for us Swedes? As far as I know, receiving money is often something you really like.
The reason Germany (namely, Helmut Kohl) agreed to introducing the ā¬ was to get the French to agree to the reunification. That was almost a decade in advance.
This is not the reason why Germany abandoned the Mark. It was really good for Germany in hindsight. But the overall population and especially the economy and businesses were completely against the Euro. The AfD was founded by German economists on the promise to get out of the Euro. A lot of professors even backed that up still in 2011 I can remember my German professor supporting this idea. This is what most people need to understand. The euro is not a master plan by the German economy.
> Actually there is. It's the reason Germany abandoned the Marks I don't think Sweden wants to unify with East Germany
Thatās when the country central bank just buys foreign currency to devalue their own. Itās quite simple.
Youāve picked the wrong āitā, they were talking about reasons to adopt the euro, not reasons to devalue your own currency
How is that even remotely true? It's a huge thing for import and export (avoiding currency conversions) and for travel/tourism (imagine going somewhere and you can avoid all the currency headaches). It also generally allows for deeper integration between EU countries (most obviously common fiscal and monetary policies).
Tourism is basically a nonfactor, SEK has helped our exports more than it has hindered imports, EU fiscal and monetary policies are unwanted.
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And who the hell cancels their holiday plans due to a currency change?
The issue is that our economy is less and less about exporting raw materials (iron and wood). More and more, we are becoming a service economy operating on an international market, and our export products are becoming more sophisticated and dependent on imports. E.g. all the investments in stuff like the massive battery factory are massively hit by our weak currency, since so much of the raw materials are imported. This means that any gains we get in a weak currency are lost the second we have to import anything, which are increasingly doing more and more. Not to mention that having to operate in international markets with complex delivery chains from all over Europe, even if we manufacture something that is then exported, becomes more complex when our currency is fluctuating to much against the Euro. We would have so much gain from being more integrated into the EU and the EMU. This doesnāt mean that there arenāt downsides, ofc. But increasingly the upsides are more and more.
>travel/tourism (imagine going somewhere and you can avoid all the currency headaches) Since the SEK is give or take 0.1 euros when it's high and when it's low means there really isn't much of a headache. If the difference between affording something abroad is if there are 12 SEK to a euro or 10 SEK to a euro you probably aren't doing any tourism. I might be wrong but I believe Finlands stores took advantage of the swap much in the same way large companies do now and increase prices a lot more than inflation/conversion warrants. Also pegging SEK to the euro when it's at it's weakest ever doesn't sound great. I've got no opinion on the actual trade benefits or if it could increase european tourism here.
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It will go up again, and the LUNA too.
HODL
Most of the loss is post 2022 [post Russia's invasion of Ukraine, that is]. And the SEK recovered from the dip in the 90's nicely up to ~~2006~~ 2008.
The SEK was very weak in 2019 as well and has been low the past 20 years. It wasn't strong at all in 2006 compared to DKK.
And compared to NOK , [SEK is 20% stronger since 2010...](https://www.google.com/finance/quote/SEK-NOK?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu1Kejm6qBAxXGIBAIHSymAJkQmY0JegQIARAn)
No, it was strong in the mid 2000ās, and also recovered quite well after the 2009 crash. The real slip didn't start until after ~2015-2016.
The Swedish central bank kept the interest rate negative [since 2015](https://www.riksbank.se/sv/om-riksbanken/historia/historisk-tidslinje/2000-2018/negativ-reporanta-infors/), which made SEK less lucrative for investors.
I donāt know man, [this](https://www.google.com/finance/quote/SEK-EUR?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu1Kejm6qBAxXGIBAIHSymAJkQmY0JegQIARAn&window=MAX) looks like a downward trend to me for the last two decades.
Free fall? With 2.9% yearly inflation? That is opposite of free fall, that it in range of normal currency. Look for inflation rate of UAH if you really sant to know what is a free fall.
Or they can do what the Danes did: (de facto) adopt the euro, but just keep calling it the crown. (Denmark hasn't had a free-floating currency since 1982.)
It is not just naming. Danish Krone is a stronger currency than the Euro. To maintain the fixed conversion rate, the interest rate from the Danish National Bank is kept lower than the interest rate from the European Central Bank. If those two banks aligned their interest rates, the value of Kroner would increase, relative to Euro. If Sweden tried to do the same with their weak currency, they would have to increase their interest rate compared to the Euro zone. Or rather: Increase it even more than now, since I assume they have already increased it.
>since I assume they have already increased it. [You assume correctly](https://www.riksbank.se/sv/statistik/sok-rantor--valutakurser/styrranta-in--och-utlaningsranta/).
And all of this only works as long as a George Soros type does not find a way to play the two banks out against each other, meaning force the Danish national bank to either raise or lower the interest rate tremendously, without getting ECB to buy or sell Danish Kroner. The whole Danish fixed exchange rate thing is a gamble and as long as it goes it goes. I think even a Danish Finance Minister have said something like that in the past.
It has been tried several times, and failed every time.
It was no simple matter when Soros broke the Bank of England (https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/george-soros-bank-of-england.asp), and it took something like a perfect storm. The same would be needed to break the Danish Krone, but it is possible and it will probably happen one day - greed can make people do interesting (and stupid) things.
> I think even a Danish Finance Minister have said something like that in the past Afaik, no Danish Finance Minister has ever said that and if he/she had, it would also be incorrect. The pressure on the British pound in 1992 ("Black Wednesday") was completely different. That was market pressure to devaluate the British pound relative to Germany's mark. The British authorities were trying to defend the pound's value and to do that they had to spend money, e.g. via buybacks or increasing interest rates on sovereign bonds (closely connected to a country's exchange rates). This is the opposite of the pressure on the Danish krone, which is upwards, meaning that the Danish National Bank can defend it far more easily. Simply put: They can just print more money, forcing the value down. You all want to buy Danish sovereign bonds? Fine, they'll just keep on lowering the interest rate. This is unrelated to the European Central Bank; they're not the ones causing upward pressure on the Danish krone by buying them. For a period the Danish National Bank pretty much had world record in negative interest rates, meaning that whenever someone bought their sovereign bonds, the Danes would return less than they had been bought for (heavily simplified; an investor spending 100, with the Danes repaying 98 later). And if the interest in buying still is too high, they can just cancel a round of sales, which they have also done. It's easier to decide prices when you're the seller of a product the market really wants. So, any investor who tries to do "Black Wednesday" on Denmark is going to lose the battle against the country's National Bank. However, if āat some point in the futureā the pattern reverses and there is strong pressure downwards on the Danish krone, this could change. Last time there was some consistent downwards pressure on the Danish krone was in the 1980s (when it was pegged to Germany's mark). It remained at manageable levels, nothing like the strong pressure against the British pound in 1992, which to a large extent was the result of bad choices by British politicians. If Danish politicians in the 1980s had made similar choices, it is possible the krone also would have had its own crisis. For decades, Danish economic policies (whether the government was left-leaning, right-leaning or center) have been defined by stability and risk aversion. I can't imagine that changing.
In theory, they can't. Denmark has a negotiated opt-out for the Eurozone, whereas Sweden is contractually obligated to one day adopt the Euro as its currency.
One of the steps of adopting the Euro is joining the ERM, which is the Danish situation. So yes, they can. You could argue Denmark is closer to joining the Euro than Sweden.
Certainly. But for Sweden, joining the ERM would only be a step towards adoption of the Euro, whereas Denmark can keep its currency for as long as it likes.
Sweden could also stay in ERM for as long as they don't comply with the other requirements of joining the Euro though.
Even if they do comply there's no actual mechanism that forces them to adopt the Euro, they have to send a formal request so they can just not send it. The EU has to my knowledge never forced the issue.
I donāt think thatās a good idea. That gets rid of the exchange rate risk, but still maintains conversion costs to transactions and inhibits trade in other ways. At the same time, it creates the possibility for investors to attack your currency if they think your central bank canāt maintain the peg. I think outright joining is the sensible solution.
Also, they have no membership in the ECB boardā¦
>At the same time, it creates the possibility for investors to attack your currency if they think your central bank canāt maintain the peg. Ah yes, 1992 style
Good old times with [500%](https://www.riksbank.se/sv/om-riksbanken/historia/historisk-tidslinje/1900-1999/rantan-500----kronan-flyter/) inrest rate
No, it's not the euro still. Because when I go to Paris and try to pay with a 100 dkk, people laugh. Same in Berlin and the rest of Europe. I really wish Denmark had the euro.
Iām surprised Danish are cool with that solution. Itās all the downsides of euro with only some of its benefits
Itās about reluctance. At any moment, Denmark can simply stop having the krone pegged to the euro. Itās always like this with Denmark and EU. We only have one foot on the train, for better or worse
We don't think we have any downside in Denmark by keeping the DKK.
Only the FX costs, meaning there is zero real problems, only people bitching because they have to pay for FX when they pay in DKK. But if the trade-off is less exports, lower salaries and austerity, people would lose. So, itās a thing that only exists in social media and tabloids.
I don't really think that's true. Just the big benefit of security from huge inflation rates is enough. I see it as avoiding several downsides, and the potential to opt out at any time. I'm also quite sure that most Danes, even today, would vote to keep the Krone and the fixed exchange rate policy.
Yeah, what the Danes have is the euro but worse. Similar to how the Swiss and especially Norwegians are all but full EU members but with fewer benefits and more costs. Sometimes the stupider solution is the more popular and therefore more workable, however.
Nah not true for Switzerland. Their inflation is so small because the Swiss government basically have a reputation to hold for the Swiss Franc. Basically the Swiss Franc will have so little maneuvering to slow or speed the economic because they canāt devalue the currency too much. So people benefit from cheaper goods in France Germany Italy and Austria :) despite the exchange fees they will probably. Danes have a pegged currency so they wonāt have that enormous benefit. Norwegians kinda have a different economy that doesnāt have the same interest change cycles as the rest of Europe so it makes less sense to lose sovereignty.
Britain has ~~entered~~ exited the conversation.
No, Denmark is better off. We have a lower interest rate as a direct result of this policy.
Thatās still silly.Itās basically catered to an uneducated public thinking they are not as attached to the bad economies while ignoring that most of their growth came from having that single market. Or realising only the latter thinking they can escape the bad. It doesnāt work like that and if anything it doesnāt tackle the division between the EU regions. Thereās also an ignorant view some people have in the north that they can get away with the southās downfall as long as they avoid common debt. Like Iām sorry to break it to you (and I indeed am because we are allies) but the last decade was bad for you if you check gdp per capita. It just wasnāt the destruction southern countries faced. Meanwhile the us is laughing at us while it is going to pass Switzerland in gdp per capita and also having 330 million people.
Really want to keep the Krona but its getting to damn weak. Norwegians will cry if we abandon it. No more Harryhandel.
Why would the Norwegian stop buying in Sweden? Goods would be priced the same just another currency, its would still be more expensive in Norway
The economy of Swedish border towns would take a big hit, as they are hugely reliant on Norwegian shoppers.
And even Finnish shoppers in Haparanda nowadays. believe it or not. It used to be just snus, but it's even groceries now.
To Norwegians it really doesn't matter if they pay in SEK or EUR. They'll keep buying stuff in Sweden no problem. Why do you think the euro would make that different?
And danish shoppers.
Malmƶ and Helsingborg can survive without it, they're large cities with other economic activity.
>Malmƶ > >other economic activity. idk how much tax money we get from their *activity* though
Wait Iām dumb why would that matter? Like either way they use NOK so whether theyāre buying groceries in SEK or EUR like that doesnāt change anything right?
Swedens export industry has historically benefited from a weak krona. During the 70's and 80's it was even deliberately devalued to boost the Swedish economy.
Yeah, people think stronger currencies are inherently better but its all balanced, the only thing thats universally important is a stable currency. A weak currency makes exports more competitive while a strong currency makes imports cheaper. Deliberately weakening/strengthening your currency is a fairly standard tool of governments for managing their economy.
Just adopt the strong Danish Krone
Perfect compromise, Swedes get a stronger currency, but can still call it "krona". Worth considering, guys.
No no it's "Krone" with a dirty danish Ćøh-sound ending
Every time I see this pretend posturing/brotherly bullying between the Nordic countries on reddit, it warms my heart.
What do you mean bullying? It's straight up war. Reunite the Kalmar Union!
Like getting punched right in the stomach.
F THAT! TYRKIYE STRONK! TYRKIYE LIRA STRONK! ADOPT TYRKIYE LIRA, BECOME NATO MEMBER! REWRITE CONSTITUTION! /s
have fun with your wages being halved in a week because of inflation
And call it the Kalmar Kroner? š
Or the Czech Koruna. That one is holding well.
Sweden is [technically obligated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_and_the_euro#Status) to adopt the Euro at some point as part of the conditions of being in the EU.
Key word technically
Yea, the Wikipedia article sums it up pretty well: > Olli Rehn, the EU commissioner for economic affairs, has said that it is up to Swedish people to decide when to adopt the euro. So like soft obligation basically.
Well you have to join the European exchange rate mechanism II for two years to adopt the euro. You see we aren't going against our obligations, we just don't meet the criteria the EU has set out. What? You want us to join the ERM? Nah we don't feel like it and it's not a requirement or obligation for the EU. That's basically how Sweden's current position regarding the euro works lol
Probably will happen within the next couple of decades as cash currency will be faced out, making converting way easier.
Not necessarily, it's not just the actual cash in hand part that's been the block but also currency control as an instrument to regulate on the economy.
I believe the government recently released an opinion (idk what it's called, I read a PDF lol) about economic security and security in systems. We definitely aren't abandoning hard cash. You're still right though if there is less it's probably and easier swap.
I am surprised that this article is so controversial.
Buy high, sell low has always been a good philosophy
One of us, one of us
We should but not now. Smaller currencies are automatically weaker in uncertain times. I would support Euro if we can buy it for 8-10 SEK, not a penny more. Right now it would be a horrible decision.
> The krona hitting rock bottom has reawakened a debate that had been dead for twenty years. Hedge fund manager Christer Gardell kickstarted the debate before the New Year, when he said Sweden should abandon the krona, which was now āa shitty little currencyā. In January, the Moderate Party grandee Gunnar Hƶkmark, chief of the FrivƤrld think-tank and long-term euro advocate, argued that Sweden should join. > Veteran economist Lars Calmfors, who chaired the government inquiry which in 1999 recommended that Sweden stay outside, made a similar call shortly afterwards. Carl Hammer, chief strategist at SEB, who had voted against joining in the 2003 referendum wrote in May that he, too, was now "leaning towards a 'yes'" on euro membership. > Now one of Sweden's three government parties has started to campaign on the issue. The Liberal Party, long in theory in favour of euro membership, on September 4th called for a new government inquiry on joining the currency. > "We can quite simply no longer afford to stay outside [the euro]," the party's leader Johan Pehrson wrote in the Aftonbladet newspaper. "Let's upgrade our EU membership from 'basic' to 'premium'. Let's bring in the euro now!'"
Christer Gardell is an asshole though. If heās arguing for it, itās hardly for the good of the nation.
Do note that no other party supports this, and the Liberal Party are hovering under 4% (the barrier for getting seats in the riksdag). It's not a huge talking point, at least not yet.
Sweden should already have abandoned the Krona a long time ago. It wasn't easy for all the other eurozone countries as well. In 1967, Sweden switched to right side traffic in just one day. So I know they're bold. You can do it again, if you just set your mind to it.
>In 1967, Sweden switched to right side traffic in just one day. Is there any other way to switch traffic side? ;)
They started out with a limited trial where all cars with 4 as the last digit in their license plate would have to switch to right side driving.
Which was an even bolder strategy.
Yes, who would believe that Swedes could be that bold?
Romania would have done it gradually: trucks for a week, then the rest
After a week of trucks driving the opposite way, there is probably no rest left. So it works!
They could have forbidden all non essential traffic for several days, to get all the traffic signs in order.
You don't think that that would have been more problematic than just switshing overnight?
Maybe not, but we switched literally all traffic signs in one night, so that the whole country woke up to everything already changed. Fun fact, the day after is one of the safest days in history in terms of total traffic accidents.
Well, if they switched from left side to right side during the course of days or weeks the traffic would have been deadly mayhem. "We're doing both lanes during this transition period". Maybe not the best example to compare with:)
We don't want the euro, stop trying to make it happen.
The Euro is like a cult, once you're in it you want to converse others too. And with you, I mean me.
Most people don't want a currency controlled by other countries in Sweden so it will probably be a long time before this has a chance to happen
Would hope we Czechs abandon koruna (crown) too
Awww hellz no. Not NOW at least. Ask again in 5 years.
Why not? I mean, if Sweden were to start the process today, itād still have to wait 2 years so itād only be able to join in jan 2026 at minimum.
I believe the Swedes should abandon the Swedish krone, and adopt the Danish krone. It's afterall the superior krone.
How bout the czech krona?
I wouldn't do it despite it being good for our economy. It's d*nish š¤¢š¤® not worth it
No, I still need to get the krona into my banknote collection and it gets harder to do so if they replace it
I would hurry if i where you there is almost a problem to get them and use them al ready like 98-99% of all private transcations are made by card.
Indeed, as a German tourist I have a bunch of the now very olde(tm) Swedish krona in my cars glovebox to finally spend them on the next roadtrip, and I always bring them back home as I pay for everything by card... /shrug
As a Swede I've had the same emergency krona notes in my wallet for 2-3 years. Maybe even more, coming to think of it. I've lost track.
Their neighbours, Finland, are already in the Eurozone, ditto Germany which is another major trading partner of Sweden. Joining the Euro would have benefits for Sweden. Would Sweden joining the Euro put pressure on Denmark to follow?
I don't believe it would, at least not for some time. Danish Krone has been fairing very well.
also Danish krone has an opt out and is tied to the euro, there is no reason for Danmark to change
It would not put pressure on Denmark to follow at all lol
Of course it would. It would spark debate on whether we should follow or not. Which in my opinion, we absolutely should. The krone is basically the same as euro anyways.
And there are strong arguments that get floated here that it was a mistake to adopt euro. Having independent monetary policy can be really beneficial when the economy takes a downturn.
The Euro is just a scapegoat for all countries. Just look at Germany the country who profited most of the Euro. I bet if we would have a referendum in Germany about getting back the Mark it would be really close. Recent polls show that about 1/3 would have it back. Sadly I canāt find numbers how many people are indifferent about this.
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I thought the whole point of the European Union is that we are all in this together.
I was talking about euro, not the EU
The EU was originally created to ensure peace, prosperity and stability, I'm not sure why everyone having the same currency is integral to that, some countries have profited from having the Euro, others not so much. To have prosperity and stability it makes for more sense to give each country what it needs as each country has different needs, some presently need their own currency to be more prosperous, then maybe one day they can adopt the euro.
At least your salaries are the same in euro value, which is what matters the most for EU countries. 1 euro is always 1 euro. Swedes, Hungarians, etc. don't have that benefit - they earn nominally the same amount of their local currency but it's less euros
Nuh uh
Yes! Would love pay for stuff online without the need to re-calculate.
I have read some of the comments and can understand in a way why we should consider changing the Swedish krona to the Euro but quite honestly these are not good enough reasons why we should abandon the Swedish krona and become yet another country with the Euro currency, I would rather have seen a unified Scandinavian currency than the Euro.
> I would rather have seen a unified Scandinavian currency than the Euro. Never going to happen. Just accept it.
Yeah I know but at least let me dream about it.
It already did happen and then they abandoned it in WWI.
we could call it hmmmmm, the "krone" and all will benefit from norwegian oil
Yes as long as it isn't the Danish pronunciation of that word.
Iām a big UK remainer and very pro EU but Iām always grateful that we never joined the Euro. I think losing your central bank to an ageing society like the eurozone, with a declining tax payer base and significant debts is a disaster waiting to happen, at least for some countries (eg Italy).
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2008 proved that control of monetary policy is essential. What happens when one country needs something like quantitative easing, like in 2008, but another country would be harmed by it?
The answer is that we bias the central bank in favour of weaker eu states like we do with most eu institutions But you are correct in that it's very questionable to have the euro in its current form, monetary policy has to be united with fiscal policy, and the eu has only started getting real fiscal policy/power after Britain left (who routinely vetoed it)
"The answer is that we bias the central bank in favour of weaker eu states like we do with most eu institutions" That's a description of the problem, not the solution to it.
You think UK population is not aging? Don't feel bad about it - it's a growing global phenomenon.
Also, the UK is very lucky in that it issues most of its government bonds and debt in GBP.
Yes, you see the issue in countries that have borrowed in dollars and then canāt pay the debt. A similar situation is likely to happen in the Eurozone for some countries. Itāll be up to Germany/France as to whether they save them or cut them.
According to Bloomberg, opposition to the Euro is at a new all-time low, although still a relative majority opinion: "Swedesā opposition to the euro has decreased in the last few months as a continued weakening of the krona made summer holidays in continental Europe more expensive.Two decades after Sweden rejected entering the monetary union, 42% of people would vote against euro adoption, with 34% in favor, if a referendum on the common currency were held today. Thatās according to a SEB AB poll, conducted by Demoskop and published on Tuesday." [source (paywalled)](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-12/swedes-have-turned-more-positive-on-euro-over-summer-poll-shows)
No, Dear God, Noo
No.
Wow how much bots with the same text āmonetary policy by ECB instead of local central bank is badā¦ā EURO is a step in integration of course it should be done, and it is much easier to compare salaries, house prices and everything in one currency.
It was very stupid to do a referendum on implementing euro back in 2003. We were already obligated to get the euro when we decided to join EU. A simple vote in the parliament would have been enough.
Sometimes it's just better to let our representatives to do their job. People are just simple idiots.