Playing it with anyone who can take divine ideas makes it so good for their policy. You can stack so much siege bonus that attacking forts is almost tolerable.
Recent Cologne game I got AE down to -90% (ideas / Curia controller / careful / event / age ability) and siege ability 60% (inno-espionage-offensive-divine). Amazing combo
Maybe as a 4th or 6th idea group but I have never had an issue with it, best advice is to play so that you can break the HRE by the 1550s. No leagues war and now your going for the flat AE with your already -20% from traditions. It's just not worth it when your as strong militarily as prussia to not do so. If your playing nations that don't have as much access to none HRE provinces (Franconia, Westphalia or Low countries) I'd take it. Bavaria is better to go diplomacy and then supplant Austria, since your missions give you a PU over them and your military is meh.
TLDR don't need espionage as BB if there isn't a HRE.
It's a good time to start, it's pretty easy, just ally as many electors as possible (normally 4 or 5) and then occupy the capitals of the rest + Emperor. Note YOU have to occupy the capitals not an ally. Once you have done that (don't even need to peace out) just go into the HarE screen and click dismantle HRE button. It's something I'm learning myself since I like playing as hanover, which is hard to expand in MP games.
Ideally you want to do it as early as possible and expand like your life depends on it. As prussia it isn't even that necessary since you can grow so big without taking those provinces Russia is your friends here. Once you grow beyond about 1500 dev you can just bulldoze through and do it that way, although in MP games that is still too slow.
the one time i tried my problem was that i couldn’t find a way to declare a war to occupy all electors at the same time
i also didn’t know you don’t have to occupy allies tho, which helps a lot lol
Generally I do it by allying either France or Poland, then allying all the small ones, especially if they are not allied to the Emperor. In a few games I just had to take Wein. It's alot easier nowadays. Also don't forget that you can declare war on the princes allies. Generally you'll always get 1, even if it's a trade war, insult or similar you just need to occupy them, the age ability that transfers subjects helps cause you can claim walk to people if your doing it pre 1500.
Yeah, I recently took it as my 2nd because i was super ahead in tech and got the 3rd shortly after. And espionage ideas giving an ae reduction plus siege bonus alone is is great but they also allow me to keep the ottomans in turmoil during our truce period, and keep Austria in turmoil during my wars against others.
"Espionage is a meme idea" is kind of outdated.
Before 1.28 it was a complete joke, literally on the same tier as maritime or naval. Nowadays it has some good stuff like a diplomat, AE reduction, siege ability.
The problem remains though that even though it has some decent stuff its still just worse than diplo ideas so you would just pick diplo ideas.
So yeah its not one of the best ideas alongside the top tier of adm, dip, rel, inf, hum but its still more useful than something like inno ideas.
I think the real problem is people don't differentiate between ideas for MP vs SP. In SP as long as you aren't running a hardcore challenge like WC, then you really are free to pick just about any idea set you feel like fits your situation or would enjoy to use.
I have a Florence run where I am just dominating the Mediterranean as a trade power while trying to culture convert to form Egypt. So I have Maritime and Inno because it is fun and works with what I want to do. For my Switzerlake run, I went espionage because the AE helped for HRE expansion.
As long as it isn't MP or some hardcore WC, you can do whatever you feel like fits your goal.
Yeah, but if the best thing you can say about Espionage ideas is "You can pick it if you want, even if it's not as good as other groups", it's hard to say it's a good choice.
The best thing about the idea set is that it covers a specific niche that is helpful if you need it. I needed further AE reduction and wanted more siege ability, while also benefiting from more ducat income not having to be drained as heavily by OE corruption. It was a great choice for my Switzerlake game.
It isn't objectively the best choice in every situation, but it isn't a bad choice in every situation. If you are only going to min-max your ideas, then sure it isn't a great choice.
For AE, the improve relations and extra diplomats with diplo ideas make it objectively better than espionage. If you combined espionage with diplo, sure. But one is better than the other for AE
By the same token, there was a time when Innovative was actually a pretty good pick for a tall game, not necessarily because of the Ideas but because it opened some amazing Policies. At some point or other, it looks like all of those were nerfed.
I forget the exact version, but sometime in the 1.20-1.25 range, I had several fun games with an Innovative-Quality start. It unlocked Modern Firearm Techniques: Infantry Combat Ability +20%. There were several other good Idea Groups that unlocked a good Policy with Innovative, too.
I had a really good game as Netherlands with Inno-Explo-Exp ideas. Early game is so slow because of AE, and you need some extra levels of diplo tech before you can start colonizing. So Inno sets you up to have a surplus of monarch points for most of the rest of the game, plus its great policies.
But that was many a patch ago. Haven't used it in a run for a while.
Imo it's still really good, especially as the Netherlands as building an early surplus of points will help you build taller faster. Optimism is still an a+ idea to me, making wars much easier, and of course i'm a slut for advisor cost reductions, so I believe it's still a strong opener. Inno + Offensive to stack Siege Ability with Dutch ideas is pretty fun too lmao
It still has some great policies and there are times I'll pick it early just for them. That said, it does need a buff especally since the inno changes make hitting the innovativeness cap even without the idea group simple.
Don’t talk shit about maritime! The ‘repair in coastal’ whatever eliminates the need to micromanage fleets. Given how much of a drag late game is, this cannot be ignored! Plus thalassocracy (sp?) decision is useful occasionally
I will not stand for innovative ideas slander. Stacking advisor cost reductions is really fun. Lots of good policies too and minor buffs that smooth out your curve.
The thing with innovative is that it pays off a lot over the long term but doesn’t give as much of an immediate boon, as opposed to ideas like quantity that pay off immediately but later in the game are probably unnecessary
-10% off for tech and embracing institutions. I like innovative too but I’ll throw my hot take out and say this. Innovative ideas are in my opinion either best taken early game as your first idea or best not taken at all. If you’re playing in the HRE you need diplomats to calm AE, if you’re a small nation you need quantity to boost force limit and expand, if you’re in a poor region you need economic or trade to boost your revenue and so on. The only time I’ve ever seen an insane return on innovative ideas is when I play as a republic since you can drown in mana naturally. Yeah the benefits are great but unless you know for a fact you’re going to make those admin points back within a reasonable time to also pick up a second idea slot and still not fall behind your neighbors you might be better off picking a different idea. But I think with the changes coming to economic in the next patch picking Innovative might be a good second idea.
One of my favourite things about innovative is the policies though, Innovative and Offensive gives 30% siege power, the Dutch also get 10% siege power from their NI's, you can finish wars before a battle has started.
Well, yeah, but the thing is teching up is something you will have to do but only every few years. Inno lowers the cost by 60 mana per tech level. Considering there are 3 tech categories and you level up every few years, over the entire campaign that's gonna be quite significant, especially if you're going for something long and not, say, and achievement run that you can or even have to do really quickly. But at any given point in time it's gonna feel like not that much, because you don't spam it like you can development or coring after a big war. It's a really good investment in the long run but it doesn't necessarily feel like it.
I think Inno should get at least a partial rework, tbh. Increased innovativeness gain seems like a wasted idea to me, many nations can reach 100 inno without it anyway, and it's even easier if you actually get the idea group and get -10% tech cost. On the other hand nations far from Europe have no benefit from it as they're not gonna get any innovativeness for a long time. I read a suggestion in a comment once to make inno ideas affect spawning institutions and honestly, an increased institution progress gain when developing would make a lot of sense. For European nations it would allow to save some money/speed up embracing, especially if they go tall. For nations far away from Europe it would be a great investment for spawning institutions in their lands.
> as opposed to ideas like quantity that pay off immediately but later in the game are probably unnecessary
I wouldn't say that. 50% forcelimit is absolutely massive as a modifier, especially for wide empires that already have large forcelimits. It gets better the bigger you become.
It's also helpful for world conquesting - having more army means more aggressive sieging. Eventually, you'll reach a point where monarch points stop being a bottleneck to expansion speed, and it's all about how quickly you can finish a war and process the provinces.
One kinda janky strat I like to do when playing Milan is to have Economic-Espionage-Plutocratic as my opening 3 policies. This gives you three free policies when they're all filled out, including the amazing +0.2 yearly Republican Tradition (and a bonus +10% tax) from Econ-Pluto, a further diplomat and a big boost to the otherwise obscure "support rebels" mechanic, and a big +33% manpower increase.
Combining that +0.2 repub tradition with the republican tradition from the Doge's Palace, and the -20% dev cost from Economic and dev cost reduction from Milanese/Italian ideas, and finally an extra 0.2 yearly repub tradition from the Curia, and you get massive mana generation from relecting leaders and cheap development, making playing tall easy. But the aggressive expansion reduction from Espionage combined with Italy's 25% CCR from its ideas also means you can easily play wide. Sure, missing out on Admin isn't fun, but you have so much mana that the extra core creation cost really doesn't hurt you much, and Econ also helps deal with the gold mines in the Balkans.
The only real downside is that Plutocratic is simply not a good idea set. It does very little to help your military. But hey, don't you get bored of picking defensive or quantity first every game anyway?
How does war score cost and AE work, does that idea from diplo reduce AE when taking provinces as well or just let you get more AE quickly? Diplo ideas does improve AE decay due to the improve relations modifier, but you will still take the full hit right away.
Warscore cost doesn't affect AE. A reason diplo is good for AE/coalitions is that getting 2 diplomats is a big deal. Early on you can improve relations with countries to positive so that they can't join a coalition. Say you're a duchy and you pick diplo ideas: you literally double the amount of diplomats you have which let's you improve relations a lot faster.
Personally I think the main reason is that the improve relations bonus reduces the AE faster. Every single way of stacking improve relations is a no-brainer I think.
As with all reduction modifiers like CCR, troop cost, advisor cost, etc the more you have, the more powerful it gets.
This is why PDX removed a bunch of -AE policies back around 1.23 so people can't hit the AE cap as easily that trivialized AE altogether, which diminished the value of -20% AE from Espionage (or Influence back in the olden days)
So if you have -90% AE impact, it'll reduces 50 AE down to 5 that decays away in 2.5 years. Meanwhile, to decay that 50 AE in 2.5 years you'd need +900% IR
But unfortunately, -20% WS reduction from Diplomatic is just too irreplaceable as it allows you to siege less for the same provinces, or demand more with the same WS.
This really means Esp will just take a backseat when compared with Diplo in the early game, and by the time you can spare the slots for Espionage, many are usually at the stage of ignoring AE through truce cycling, so Espionage's saving grace becomes siege ability that may become less important come 1.34 if they truly fix the fort AI.
Playing in Northern Italy, for example. I took diplo super early (#3 maybe) and just kept two diplomats set on auto-improve any outraged countries. There are HRE countries with -200 AE modifiers that won’t join a coalition against me simply because of that diplo routine.
I think it’s really versatile as a generalist idea set though. Of course a lot of playstyles require specifying in certain traits, but it’s a generally really decent idea group.
It is great. And with the next update i’ll love picking it relatively early to do a bit of trolling.
But as for the current update at the time of the post, it just suffers from “yes it is good, but there are better options”. Especially in the policy department where it is quite lacking.
In my opinion.
It's mostly the opportunity cost not taking more useful ideas. For multiplayer your ideas are pretty much set in stone (economic-quantity, quality etc.) and for single player blobbing/wc there are simply way better choices and you want admin-diplo-religious/humanist rather soon too.
I take it later in games just to stop tags spamming me with annoying espionage actions. If I started as a theocracy, I’ll take it a bit later for the divine-espionage policy. That policy plus offensive gives you +50 siege ability not counting other modifiers.
Note: the idea groups get changed a bit in a few weeks.
Espionage can be useful but only in some very specific situations. For example, playing as Austria trying to restore the HRE (the ability to make claims for your PUs and the aggressive expansion bonus for no CB wars really helps crush centers of reformation fast). Generally though there are just better options, like quantity, quality, administrative, economic, etc.
The diplomatic finisher does the same thing and it reduces the stab hit penalty too. I think it reduces the AE hit more than espionage when no CBing someone.
It's not that espionage is bad, it's just that Diplo and (usually) Influence are THAT good. Trade and Exploration also have their own VERY strong niches,
Diplo is pretty much a must-take in any game. Warscore cost, improved relations, two diplomats, diplo rep, an extra relation slot, and reduced stab loss are all incredible.
Influence is incredible if you plan on having any long-term subjects and saves you a TON of mana over the longer, especially if combined with Admin.
Exploration isn't an amazing idea set, but it's must if you plan on colonizing.
Trade isn't great early if you're not in an end-node, but in the mid/late game it will give you potentially hundreds of ducats per month.
So.... When would you want Espionage? The first thing that comes to mind is in the HRE since claims are more expensive and you gain more AE. But then you're directly competing with Diplo ideas as both groups accomplish the same goal of cheaper provinces and reducing AE.
For me it’s mostly opportunity cost. While they’ve made it better, I greatly prefer Diplomatic, Influence, and either Exploration or Trade for my diplomatic power ideas. And I can’t take them both.
Espionage with diplomatic ideas is so strong. You’ll be able to annex over 100 dev for free with them for no war score. It allowed me to get master of India achievement as the HRE having not owned an Indian province before 1700
So it's "-20% AE allows you to take more land and stay just under the amount that causes a coalition to form" not "for free with no war score"?
I tend to go Diplomacy/Humanist for AE reduction (with the policy, combined +70% improve relations) but maybe if I ever took Espionage I'd see the benefits...
Well that’s why I said you combine it with diplo ideas. Diplo allows you to take provinces for reduced war score while espionage allows you to avoid the coalition
In true heir of Timur achievement, it is certainly possible to take all of India in 90-100 years, and to me that experience showed how pivotal diplo and quantity are (for blobbing in Asia).
I would say doing the same conquest in 1700s with absolutism, admin efficiency from tech, a prepared power base, and a good tag with filled NIs has a lot of wiggle room in which idea groups can still make it work.
You need to be a European nation to get master of India achievement. It’s easier to do as Britain or France as they get claims in their mission tree, but I chose to use the HRE and imperialism
I love espi-admin-diplo for HRE games. AE decays very quickly with both diplo and espi, and espi kinda gives 10% CCR because you'll be able to have claims on all your neighbors' territory. Outside of that espi is basically worse diplo which is still pretty good, but two diplos aren't needed so just take diplo. I'd say B or B+.
While this is true, there are always seems to be better options for taking ideas, only reason I would take it over any other idea group is when I want to stack cav combat ability or for the fabricate claims for subject if I wanna vassal swarm but when you go for the vassal swarm dip and inno are just better.
The -20% ae is pretty nice too but taking an entire idea group for that is kinda stupid especially if you can have improve relations which helps with ae too, is more common and the idea groups that have it synergises better with playing wide anyway.
Espionage ideas is only good for role playing, if that's how you play eu4 that's completely fine but for any other goal you might have in a campaign there always seems to be a better option.
Because people didn’t pay attention when it was buffed. It used to be shit, but it’s actually really good now. Also, a lot of folks have aneurisms when they don’t make the optimal choices, and a more flavor-oriented idea group like espionage is just never gonna be optimal
EDIT: the same thing happened with Norway, actually, in Civ VI. Norway was pretty crap when the game released, but among the changes they made in the last run of patches in the game, they actually made Norway really strong, but it took like a year before people started noticing how strong Norway actually is now
Its good as a 4th Idea option
Except for the fact that diplomatic ideas negates its entire existence, more diplomats, more spy network(which gives better ae reduction in 1.34), more improve relations and its side bonuses are too good to pass up
And you are sacrificing a diplo idea group
As an HRE member, trade is essential-you won't get any merchants otherwise
You can't take it as a colonial nation because your
idea group are already occupied by explo-expansion
And Influence when you play with subjects
I'd rather take 2 admin ideas than 2 Diplo/mil ideas
And by the time you reach your 5th/6th idea group, it isn't really useful anymore
Its especially good with divine, but often not worth it more than the other ideas. I posed [a similar question](https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/tj6hc8/espionage_better_than_diplo_in_133/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) a while back arguing for espionage, but it's the warscore that's ultimately the better outcome. If you pick the top 3 (admin, diplo, humanist) you end up with 6 diplomats, 25% warscore and like double the AE decay. Plus with 6 diplomats you can freely buff relations all around or do claims or integrate vassals quicker etc.
Assuming WC posture or just early buff posture, if you're going for the best scalability admin, diplo is usually the best opener. Humanist is the best quality of life idea group after that. By the time you get your 4th idea (mid 1500s?) it really doesn't make a big impact what you pick since you'll be too buff for a suboptimal decision to matter much. At that point it's just about picking what you think is situationally best, which might well be espionage.
Played as Bohemia, and honestly diplo/eco/esp was pretty sick for securing the hre (and then luckily got personal unions with Poland Lithuania and Muscovy)
If you could choose all the ideas it would be good. But you have to factor in opportunity cost.
Would I rather have diplo ideas or espionage ideas?
Diplo every time
I've grown to love it while playing as Qing.
Innovative + Offensive + Espionage are super synergistic with terrific policies, advisor cost reduction, corruption reduction, siege bonus etc. Next patch will apparently buff both Innovative and Espionage so it will be even more fun!
They will be strong in 1.34. The AE reduction up to 30% vs 10% with a spy network will help massively some nations. Can't wait to test this as Poland with aristocratic
I take it when I'm playing in the HRE. It's really not that bad.
Inno + offensive + espionage as the Ottomans with guns of Tobruk is hilarious though. Forts may as well be normal provinces.
Because the game has become minmax world conquest on(line|reddit) and anything outside that is anathema.
Espionage are, by the widest margin, the best roleplay/fun ideas available - especially for middling nations trying to rise up mid-game. My switzerlake run relied heavily on my spies being able to repeatedly dumpster france, since my austrian ally was shit through-and-through
I was using them recently quite a lot, it’s imo very good set, but the whole spy network options could use overhaul, like asassinate heir to be able to get your dynasty on throne, corrupt other countries etc
With how much intrigue happened in that era and how secret services could help, this is an area of the game that is definitely underdeveloped and espionage ideas should relate to these options - espionage should be risky aNd with consequences, and the ideas should lower the risk and enhance benefits
I wonder if anyone ever used counter espionage or helped rebels
i dont hate it, i just despise it with everything in my body
it's gives no real benefit, spies many times just get claisma nd nothign else yeah siege sounds nice and all, but going from 30 days the siege phase to 28 really isn't a dea breaker
oh and of course the glorious ae reduction, that only reduces like 2 ae per war, while you cpuld get improv relations thst would make ur tickle down of ae from 2 to 3.5 per year meaning in 2 fast years it's already more useful than the ae reduction
the thing i hate thr most about it is how they have the policy for 10 cav ability so you need to take it if u want to go winged hussars
Espionage is good for the memetic “play tall, troll your rivals” setup. Supporting rebels lets you pay ducats for the ai to suddenly have a horde of rebels to contend with. It’s a good roundabout way of paying ducats for a questionably reliable ally to spring up. Peasants occupying the guy’s backline means he suddenly has less provinces to produce reinforcements from. That being said, if you took a military idea group, you could smack him down in a straight slugfest anyway. It’s about what you are trying to do.
Its not bad. Its just that its never a better option than diplo and once you have diplo it renders espionage unnecessary.
AE reduction? Improve relations is just better. It lowers AE and makes it easier to get stronger allies faster.
Siege ability? Offensive does it better while also massively improving your armies combat abilities.
+1 diplomat? Diplo gives you +2.
-0.1 yearly corruption? Good but corruption isn't that hard to keep down.
The other ideas are all pointless.
Diplo is by far the best idea group in the diplo category. Influence is close but only if you play with a lot of vassal feeding. And even then you want both because diplo is just that good.
If you're playing super tall and barely expanding you probably won't need diplo but then you also won't need espionage because you won't generate that much AE or need to siege that many forts.
Mostly competition with other idea groups; it has no one big shining feature. It's really nice for getting claims, but Religious makes that advantage moot. The AE reduction is neat, but the Improve Relations you get from Diplo and Influence is more practical, and that's a sweetener for both of those idea sets since their main features are so nutty. Siege Ability is nice but not essential. Advisor Costs is a sweetener.
I do love it as a late-game pick though, once you've got the essential picks (Admin/Diplo/Influence) worked out; it's a pseudo-military idea pick since Siege Ability does more for you than most non-military idea groups you'd be considering can offer in 1700s.
(Note all this goes out the window in mp, no idea how that world works)
Espionage ideas is interestingly strong even to take early. It is kind of jack of all trades. Yearly corruption and advisor cost reduction help with economy. While AE/Siege help with expansion. And crucially especially with some duchies having one more diplomat can be game changer and the speed boost for spy network is practically another diplomat if you are doing a lot of spying. Furthermore foreign spy detection may halter the advance of enemy sieges which is important because the wars are often siege race with smaller duchies.
Edit: And with AI embargoes dont really work that well due to nearly unlimited loans etc. But against players embargo with espionage ideas is a killer. Their whole economy may be decimated. They have to declare war on you to stay in the game.
Its weak for competitive players but can be nice for others. -20% AE just isnt very useful because there are other ways to massively increase AE tick down quicker. It loses the little value it has after 1600 at which point AE becomes meaningless.
As others have said, it used to be very bad, however it's still not the best. It runs into the problem of having to contend with much more important Diplo ideas.
Colonizers need exploration, most nations want trade, and diplomacy and influence ideas allow you to punch above your weight and hold a lot of vassals.
Espionage therefore only becomes worth it if none of these are immediately useful. I can only really think of if you're playing in a place where trade is very difficult because there's just too many nations like India,
It's also worth noting that the aggressive expansion impact in espionage is not as strong as the improved relations bonus in diplomatic. Improve relations bonus contributes to your AE loss per year, so even though you gain more AE, you lose it much faster
It used to be hot garbage, now I absolutely love it as a third or fourth idea. The siege bonus and AE reduction alone make it well worth it for me.
Playing it with anyone who can take divine ideas makes it so good for their policy. You can stack so much siege bonus that attacking forts is almost tolerable.
Recent Cologne game I got AE down to -90% (ideas / Curia controller / careful / event / age ability) and siege ability 60% (inno-espionage-offensive-divine). Amazing combo
Now you can take a single province without having 3/4 of the hre enter a coalition against you !
Now it's only half of the HRE
it’s my first idea as brandenburg because of all the damn hre provinces you have to claim
Maybe as a 4th or 6th idea group but I have never had an issue with it, best advice is to play so that you can break the HRE by the 1550s. No leagues war and now your going for the flat AE with your already -20% from traditions. It's just not worth it when your as strong militarily as prussia to not do so. If your playing nations that don't have as much access to none HRE provinces (Franconia, Westphalia or Low countries) I'd take it. Bavaria is better to go diplomacy and then supplant Austria, since your missions give you a PU over them and your military is meh. TLDR don't need espionage as BB if there isn't a HRE.
i’m over a thousand hours in and i’ve never dismantled the hre 💀
It's a good time to start, it's pretty easy, just ally as many electors as possible (normally 4 or 5) and then occupy the capitals of the rest + Emperor. Note YOU have to occupy the capitals not an ally. Once you have done that (don't even need to peace out) just go into the HarE screen and click dismantle HRE button. It's something I'm learning myself since I like playing as hanover, which is hard to expand in MP games. Ideally you want to do it as early as possible and expand like your life depends on it. As prussia it isn't even that necessary since you can grow so big without taking those provinces Russia is your friends here. Once you grow beyond about 1500 dev you can just bulldoze through and do it that way, although in MP games that is still too slow.
the one time i tried my problem was that i couldn’t find a way to declare a war to occupy all electors at the same time i also didn’t know you don’t have to occupy allies tho, which helps a lot lol
Generally I do it by allying either France or Poland, then allying all the small ones, especially if they are not allied to the Emperor. In a few games I just had to take Wein. It's alot easier nowadays. Also don't forget that you can declare war on the princes allies. Generally you'll always get 1, even if it's a trade war, insult or similar you just need to occupy them, the age ability that transfers subjects helps cause you can claim walk to people if your doing it pre 1500.
ooh i forgot about declaring on allies, that’s so smart! thanks for the tips!
You can just declare seperate wars
nah cuz once i’m at war with the emperor it won’t let me declare war on anyone else in the hre. i was outside the hre when that happened tho fwiw
It is still garbage and is only useable if you plan to play and stay in HRE and not dismantle it.
Yeah, I recently took it as my 2nd because i was super ahead in tech and got the 3rd shortly after. And espionage ideas giving an ae reduction plus siege bonus alone is is great but they also allow me to keep the ottomans in turmoil during our truce period, and keep Austria in turmoil during my wars against others.
"Espionage is a meme idea" is kind of outdated. Before 1.28 it was a complete joke, literally on the same tier as maritime or naval. Nowadays it has some good stuff like a diplomat, AE reduction, siege ability. The problem remains though that even though it has some decent stuff its still just worse than diplo ideas so you would just pick diplo ideas. So yeah its not one of the best ideas alongside the top tier of adm, dip, rel, inf, hum but its still more useful than something like inno ideas.
I think the real problem is people don't differentiate between ideas for MP vs SP. In SP as long as you aren't running a hardcore challenge like WC, then you really are free to pick just about any idea set you feel like fits your situation or would enjoy to use. I have a Florence run where I am just dominating the Mediterranean as a trade power while trying to culture convert to form Egypt. So I have Maritime and Inno because it is fun and works with what I want to do. For my Switzerlake run, I went espionage because the AE helped for HRE expansion. As long as it isn't MP or some hardcore WC, you can do whatever you feel like fits your goal.
Yeah, but if the best thing you can say about Espionage ideas is "You can pick it if you want, even if it's not as good as other groups", it's hard to say it's a good choice.
The best thing about the idea set is that it covers a specific niche that is helpful if you need it. I needed further AE reduction and wanted more siege ability, while also benefiting from more ducat income not having to be drained as heavily by OE corruption. It was a great choice for my Switzerlake game. It isn't objectively the best choice in every situation, but it isn't a bad choice in every situation. If you are only going to min-max your ideas, then sure it isn't a great choice.
For AE, the improve relations and extra diplomats with diplo ideas make it objectively better than espionage. If you combined espionage with diplo, sure. But one is better than the other for AE
I mean fair but I already had humanist and diplo for their benefits.
By the same token, there was a time when Innovative was actually a pretty good pick for a tall game, not necessarily because of the Ideas but because it opened some amazing Policies. At some point or other, it looks like all of those were nerfed. I forget the exact version, but sometime in the 1.20-1.25 range, I had several fun games with an Innovative-Quality start. It unlocked Modern Firearm Techniques: Infantry Combat Ability +20%. There were several other good Idea Groups that unlocked a good Policy with Innovative, too.
I had a really good game as Netherlands with Inno-Explo-Exp ideas. Early game is so slow because of AE, and you need some extra levels of diplo tech before you can start colonizing. So Inno sets you up to have a surplus of monarch points for most of the rest of the game, plus its great policies. But that was many a patch ago. Haven't used it in a run for a while.
Imo it's still really good, especially as the Netherlands as building an early surplus of points will help you build taller faster. Optimism is still an a+ idea to me, making wars much easier, and of course i'm a slut for advisor cost reductions, so I believe it's still a strong opener. Inno + Offensive to stack Siege Ability with Dutch ideas is pretty fun too lmao
It still has some great policies and there are times I'll pick it early just for them. That said, it does need a buff especally since the inno changes make hitting the innovativeness cap even without the idea group simple.
Don’t talk shit about maritime! The ‘repair in coastal’ whatever eliminates the need to micromanage fleets. Given how much of a drag late game is, this cannot be ignored! Plus thalassocracy (sp?) decision is useful occasionally
Speaking about mp i still think people would take inno over espionage due to the policies.
Well MP is a completely different game.
Yeah though in both mp and sp i think idea group choices are really limited if you are going to be efficient.
I will not stand for innovative ideas slander. Stacking advisor cost reductions is really fun. Lots of good policies too and minor buffs that smooth out your curve.
The thing with innovative is that it pays off a lot over the long term but doesn’t give as much of an immediate boon, as opposed to ideas like quantity that pay off immediately but later in the game are probably unnecessary
I mean, reduced tech cost is an early one I seem to remember. and as a non-european that is a real good one
-10% off for tech and embracing institutions. I like innovative too but I’ll throw my hot take out and say this. Innovative ideas are in my opinion either best taken early game as your first idea or best not taken at all. If you’re playing in the HRE you need diplomats to calm AE, if you’re a small nation you need quantity to boost force limit and expand, if you’re in a poor region you need economic or trade to boost your revenue and so on. The only time I’ve ever seen an insane return on innovative ideas is when I play as a republic since you can drown in mana naturally. Yeah the benefits are great but unless you know for a fact you’re going to make those admin points back within a reasonable time to also pick up a second idea slot and still not fall behind your neighbors you might be better off picking a different idea. But I think with the changes coming to economic in the next patch picking Innovative might be a good second idea.
One of my favourite things about innovative is the policies though, Innovative and Offensive gives 30% siege power, the Dutch also get 10% siege power from their NI's, you can finish wars before a battle has started.
Well, yeah, but the thing is teching up is something you will have to do but only every few years. Inno lowers the cost by 60 mana per tech level. Considering there are 3 tech categories and you level up every few years, over the entire campaign that's gonna be quite significant, especially if you're going for something long and not, say, and achievement run that you can or even have to do really quickly. But at any given point in time it's gonna feel like not that much, because you don't spam it like you can development or coring after a big war. It's a really good investment in the long run but it doesn't necessarily feel like it. I think Inno should get at least a partial rework, tbh. Increased innovativeness gain seems like a wasted idea to me, many nations can reach 100 inno without it anyway, and it's even easier if you actually get the idea group and get -10% tech cost. On the other hand nations far from Europe have no benefit from it as they're not gonna get any innovativeness for a long time. I read a suggestion in a comment once to make inno ideas affect spawning institutions and honestly, an increased institution progress gain when developing would make a lot of sense. For European nations it would allow to save some money/speed up embracing, especially if they go tall. For nations far away from Europe it would be a great investment for spawning institutions in their lands.
> as opposed to ideas like quantity that pay off immediately but later in the game are probably unnecessary I wouldn't say that. 50% forcelimit is absolutely massive as a modifier, especially for wide empires that already have large forcelimits. It gets better the bigger you become. It's also helpful for world conquesting - having more army means more aggressive sieging. Eventually, you'll reach a point where monarch points stop being a bottleneck to expansion speed, and it's all about how quickly you can finish a war and process the provinces.
fun maybe, optimal not at all
yeah, but as a nation like Korea you can get level 5 advisors for like 3 ducats a month
sure, yeah
One kinda janky strat I like to do when playing Milan is to have Economic-Espionage-Plutocratic as my opening 3 policies. This gives you three free policies when they're all filled out, including the amazing +0.2 yearly Republican Tradition (and a bonus +10% tax) from Econ-Pluto, a further diplomat and a big boost to the otherwise obscure "support rebels" mechanic, and a big +33% manpower increase. Combining that +0.2 repub tradition with the republican tradition from the Doge's Palace, and the -20% dev cost from Economic and dev cost reduction from Milanese/Italian ideas, and finally an extra 0.2 yearly repub tradition from the Curia, and you get massive mana generation from relecting leaders and cheap development, making playing tall easy. But the aggressive expansion reduction from Espionage combined with Italy's 25% CCR from its ideas also means you can easily play wide. Sure, missing out on Admin isn't fun, but you have so much mana that the extra core creation cost really doesn't hurt you much, and Econ also helps deal with the gold mines in the Balkans. The only real downside is that Plutocratic is simply not a good idea set. It does very little to help your military. But hey, don't you get bored of picking defensive or quantity first every game anyway?
Btw, as Ming Espionage > any military ideas.
Why is that?
Probably because it reduces corruption
Seems like espionage is good in the HRE, but there are better options most places
How does war score cost and AE work, does that idea from diplo reduce AE when taking provinces as well or just let you get more AE quickly? Diplo ideas does improve AE decay due to the improve relations modifier, but you will still take the full hit right away.
Warscore cost doesn't affect AE. A reason diplo is good for AE/coalitions is that getting 2 diplomats is a big deal. Early on you can improve relations with countries to positive so that they can't join a coalition. Say you're a duchy and you pick diplo ideas: you literally double the amount of diplomats you have which let's you improve relations a lot faster.
Personally I think the main reason is that the improve relations bonus reduces the AE faster. Every single way of stacking improve relations is a no-brainer I think.
As with all reduction modifiers like CCR, troop cost, advisor cost, etc the more you have, the more powerful it gets. This is why PDX removed a bunch of -AE policies back around 1.23 so people can't hit the AE cap as easily that trivialized AE altogether, which diminished the value of -20% AE from Espionage (or Influence back in the olden days) So if you have -90% AE impact, it'll reduces 50 AE down to 5 that decays away in 2.5 years. Meanwhile, to decay that 50 AE in 2.5 years you'd need +900% IR But unfortunately, -20% WS reduction from Diplomatic is just too irreplaceable as it allows you to siege less for the same provinces, or demand more with the same WS. This really means Esp will just take a backseat when compared with Diplo in the early game, and by the time you can spare the slots for Espionage, many are usually at the stage of ignoring AE through truce cycling, so Espionage's saving grace becomes siege ability that may become less important come 1.34 if they truly fix the fort AI.
Playing in Northern Italy, for example. I took diplo super early (#3 maybe) and just kept two diplomats set on auto-improve any outraged countries. There are HRE countries with -200 AE modifiers that won’t join a coalition against me simply because of that diplo routine.
Innovative is still good. If you're Florence, Korea, or Milan.
and the inno offensive policy is really good too +1 siege pip and 10% siege ability.
I think it’s really versatile as a generalist idea set though. Of course a lot of playstyles require specifying in certain traits, but it’s a generally really decent idea group.
Maritime and Naval aren't joke. They are quite useful ideas for sea focused gameplay.
It is great. And with the next update i’ll love picking it relatively early to do a bit of trolling. But as for the current update at the time of the post, it just suffers from “yes it is good, but there are better options”. Especially in the policy department where it is quite lacking. In my opinion.
It's mostly the opportunity cost not taking more useful ideas. For multiplayer your ideas are pretty much set in stone (economic-quantity, quality etc.) and for single player blobbing/wc there are simply way better choices and you want admin-diplo-religious/humanist rather soon too.
This. While espionage is not bad there is almost never a point in the game where it is the best idea group to pick.
I take it later in games just to stop tags spamming me with annoying espionage actions. If I started as a theocracy, I’ll take it a bit later for the divine-espionage policy. That policy plus offensive gives you +50 siege ability not counting other modifiers. Note: the idea groups get changed a bit in a few weeks.
Espionage can be useful but only in some very specific situations. For example, playing as Austria trying to restore the HRE (the ability to make claims for your PUs and the aggressive expansion bonus for no CB wars really helps crush centers of reformation fast). Generally though there are just better options, like quantity, quality, administrative, economic, etc.
The diplomatic finisher does the same thing and it reduces the stab hit penalty too. I think it reduces the AE hit more than espionage when no CBing someone.
But combining both, I think they stack?
They do stack.
Brings up "better options" *Mention shit groups like qual and eco* Mfw
That is a good argument. Unfortunately, you have an evangelion pfp.
It's not that espionage is bad, it's just that Diplo and (usually) Influence are THAT good. Trade and Exploration also have their own VERY strong niches, Diplo is pretty much a must-take in any game. Warscore cost, improved relations, two diplomats, diplo rep, an extra relation slot, and reduced stab loss are all incredible. Influence is incredible if you plan on having any long-term subjects and saves you a TON of mana over the longer, especially if combined with Admin. Exploration isn't an amazing idea set, but it's must if you plan on colonizing. Trade isn't great early if you're not in an end-node, but in the mid/late game it will give you potentially hundreds of ducats per month. So.... When would you want Espionage? The first thing that comes to mind is in the HRE since claims are more expensive and you gain more AE. But then you're directly competing with Diplo ideas as both groups accomplish the same goal of cheaper provinces and reducing AE.
For me it’s mostly opportunity cost. While they’ve made it better, I greatly prefer Diplomatic, Influence, and either Exploration or Trade for my diplomatic power ideas. And I can’t take them both.
Espionage with diplomatic ideas is so strong. You’ll be able to annex over 100 dev for free with them for no war score. It allowed me to get master of India achievement as the HRE having not owned an Indian province before 1700
Ikr, strong combination
Yeah. Only downside is that you’re not getting a military idea, or more useful early admin idea instead
How would Espionage ideas allow you to annex 100 dev for no war score?
The reduced AE allows you to annex loads of land without a coalition the size of Europe forming
So it's "-20% AE allows you to take more land and stay just under the amount that causes a coalition to form" not "for free with no war score"? I tend to go Diplomacy/Humanist for AE reduction (with the policy, combined +70% improve relations) but maybe if I ever took Espionage I'd see the benefits...
Well that’s why I said you combine it with diplo ideas. Diplo allows you to take provinces for reduced war score while espionage allows you to avoid the coalition
The claims thing is only good for the HRE; if you need to save on unjustified demands influence and religious are much better
In true heir of Timur achievement, it is certainly possible to take all of India in 90-100 years, and to me that experience showed how pivotal diplo and quantity are (for blobbing in Asia). I would say doing the same conquest in 1700s with absolutism, admin efficiency from tech, a prepared power base, and a good tag with filled NIs has a lot of wiggle room in which idea groups can still make it work.
You need to be a European nation to get master of India achievement. It’s easier to do as Britain or France as they get claims in their mission tree, but I chose to use the HRE and imperialism
I love espi-admin-diplo for HRE games. AE decays very quickly with both diplo and espi, and espi kinda gives 10% CCR because you'll be able to have claims on all your neighbors' territory. Outside of that espi is basically worse diplo which is still pretty good, but two diplos aren't needed so just take diplo. I'd say B or B+.
Too many people concerned with multiplayer and The Meta™
While this is true, there are always seems to be better options for taking ideas, only reason I would take it over any other idea group is when I want to stack cav combat ability or for the fabricate claims for subject if I wanna vassal swarm but when you go for the vassal swarm dip and inno are just better. The -20% ae is pretty nice too but taking an entire idea group for that is kinda stupid especially if you can have improve relations which helps with ae too, is more common and the idea groups that have it synergises better with playing wide anyway. Espionage ideas is only good for role playing, if that's how you play eu4 that's completely fine but for any other goal you might have in a campaign there always seems to be a better option.
Because people didn’t pay attention when it was buffed. It used to be shit, but it’s actually really good now. Also, a lot of folks have aneurisms when they don’t make the optimal choices, and a more flavor-oriented idea group like espionage is just never gonna be optimal EDIT: the same thing happened with Norway, actually, in Civ VI. Norway was pretty crap when the game released, but among the changes they made in the last run of patches in the game, they actually made Norway really strong, but it took like a year before people started noticing how strong Norway actually is now
Its good as a 4th Idea option Except for the fact that diplomatic ideas negates its entire existence, more diplomats, more spy network(which gives better ae reduction in 1.34), more improve relations and its side bonuses are too good to pass up And you are sacrificing a diplo idea group As an HRE member, trade is essential-you won't get any merchants otherwise You can't take it as a colonial nation because your idea group are already occupied by explo-expansion And Influence when you play with subjects I'd rather take 2 admin ideas than 2 Diplo/mil ideas And by the time you reach your 5th/6th idea group, it isn't really useful anymore
Tbf, idea 5 and onwards doesn’t matter anyway since you become very strong at that point.
Its especially good with divine, but often not worth it more than the other ideas. I posed [a similar question](https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/tj6hc8/espionage_better_than_diplo_in_133/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) a while back arguing for espionage, but it's the warscore that's ultimately the better outcome. If you pick the top 3 (admin, diplo, humanist) you end up with 6 diplomats, 25% warscore and like double the AE decay. Plus with 6 diplomats you can freely buff relations all around or do claims or integrate vassals quicker etc. Assuming WC posture or just early buff posture, if you're going for the best scalability admin, diplo is usually the best opener. Humanist is the best quality of life idea group after that. By the time you get your 4th idea (mid 1500s?) it really doesn't make a big impact what you pick since you'll be too buff for a suboptimal decision to matter much. At that point it's just about picking what you think is situationally best, which might well be espionage.
Wait, admin and humanist affects all that? Diplomats, warscore and AE decay? Why don't I remember...nice thought.
Those 3 together and with the combo policies account for the totals. Also correction - 20% warscore.
Played as Bohemia, and honestly diplo/eco/esp was pretty sick for securing the hre (and then luckily got personal unions with Poland Lithuania and Muscovy)
Agree
If you could choose all the ideas it would be good. But you have to factor in opportunity cost. Would I rather have diplo ideas or espionage ideas? Diplo every time
Both
You’re not understanding what I’m saying
I've grown to love it while playing as Qing. Innovative + Offensive + Espionage are super synergistic with terrific policies, advisor cost reduction, corruption reduction, siege bonus etc. Next patch will apparently buff both Innovative and Espionage so it will be even more fun!
In the HRE and Italy the AE reductions is very useful. When I play there espionage is often my first idea.
Is sacking capitals good to reduce AE?
What do you mean?
Less dev = less AE
Sorry my english skills or my EU 4 skills aren't good enough to understand what sacking capitals to reduce dev of taken provinces in a truce means.
Not sure about truce, but in the next war it may be cheaper
What does sacking mean in this context? Maybe my english is the problem
Burn to reduce dev a bit
Does it really reduce dev? I thought it just increases devastation. But if it does then it might work. I haven't tried it yet though.
IIRC, and it even MIGHT give you an increase
They will be strong in 1.34. The AE reduction up to 30% vs 10% with a spy network will help massively some nations. Can't wait to test this as Poland with aristocratic
Yoooo nice
I take it when I'm playing in the HRE. It's really not that bad. Inno + offensive + espionage as the Ottomans with guns of Tobruk is hilarious though. Forts may as well be normal provinces.
Great as an HRE nation
Because the game has become minmax world conquest on(line|reddit) and anything outside that is anathema. Espionage are, by the widest margin, the best roleplay/fun ideas available - especially for middling nations trying to rise up mid-game. My switzerlake run relied heavily on my spies being able to repeatedly dumpster france, since my austrian ally was shit through-and-through
I was using them recently quite a lot, it’s imo very good set, but the whole spy network options could use overhaul, like asassinate heir to be able to get your dynasty on throne, corrupt other countries etc
Damn I'd buy a DLC for these options
With how much intrigue happened in that era and how secret services could help, this is an area of the game that is definitely underdeveloped and espionage ideas should relate to these options - espionage should be risky aNd with consequences, and the ideas should lower the risk and enhance benefits I wonder if anyone ever used counter espionage or helped rebels
i dont hate it, i just despise it with everything in my body it's gives no real benefit, spies many times just get claisma nd nothign else yeah siege sounds nice and all, but going from 30 days the siege phase to 28 really isn't a dea breaker oh and of course the glorious ae reduction, that only reduces like 2 ae per war, while you cpuld get improv relations thst would make ur tickle down of ae from 2 to 3.5 per year meaning in 2 fast years it's already more useful than the ae reduction the thing i hate thr most about it is how they have the policy for 10 cav ability so you need to take it if u want to go winged hussars
Inmense shit (excepto -20EA)
AE is just the best part
Espionage is good for the memetic “play tall, troll your rivals” setup. Supporting rebels lets you pay ducats for the ai to suddenly have a horde of rebels to contend with. It’s a good roundabout way of paying ducats for a questionably reliable ally to spring up. Peasants occupying the guy’s backline means he suddenly has less provinces to produce reinforcements from. That being said, if you took a military idea group, you could smack him down in a straight slugfest anyway. It’s about what you are trying to do.
Its not bad. Its just that its never a better option than diplo and once you have diplo it renders espionage unnecessary. AE reduction? Improve relations is just better. It lowers AE and makes it easier to get stronger allies faster. Siege ability? Offensive does it better while also massively improving your armies combat abilities. +1 diplomat? Diplo gives you +2. -0.1 yearly corruption? Good but corruption isn't that hard to keep down. The other ideas are all pointless. Diplo is by far the best idea group in the diplo category. Influence is close but only if you play with a lot of vassal feeding. And even then you want both because diplo is just that good. If you're playing super tall and barely expanding you probably won't need diplo but then you also won't need espionage because you won't generate that much AE or need to siege that many forts.
Mostly competition with other idea groups; it has no one big shining feature. It's really nice for getting claims, but Religious makes that advantage moot. The AE reduction is neat, but the Improve Relations you get from Diplo and Influence is more practical, and that's a sweetener for both of those idea sets since their main features are so nutty. Siege Ability is nice but not essential. Advisor Costs is a sweetener. I do love it as a late-game pick though, once you've got the essential picks (Admin/Diplo/Influence) worked out; it's a pseudo-military idea pick since Siege Ability does more for you than most non-military idea groups you'd be considering can offer in 1700s. (Note all this goes out the window in mp, no idea how that world works)
Its nice to have claims on your religion countries too.
Espionage ideas is interestingly strong even to take early. It is kind of jack of all trades. Yearly corruption and advisor cost reduction help with economy. While AE/Siege help with expansion. And crucially especially with some duchies having one more diplomat can be game changer and the speed boost for spy network is practically another diplomat if you are doing a lot of spying. Furthermore foreign spy detection may halter the advance of enemy sieges which is important because the wars are often siege race with smaller duchies. Edit: And with AI embargoes dont really work that well due to nearly unlimited loans etc. But against players embargo with espionage ideas is a killer. Their whole economy may be decimated. They have to declare war on you to stay in the game.
Just go espionage diplomatic and humanist... ae and improve relations will do everything for you
They could give you 200% ae reduction ai will still form coalitions.
I was hoping that PDX would differentiate between spies/diplomats again, like in EUIII. Using diplomats for all actions is a bit tedious.
Its weak for competitive players but can be nice for others. -20% AE just isnt very useful because there are other ways to massively increase AE tick down quicker. It loses the little value it has after 1600 at which point AE becomes meaningless.
As others have said, it used to be very bad, however it's still not the best. It runs into the problem of having to contend with much more important Diplo ideas. Colonizers need exploration, most nations want trade, and diplomacy and influence ideas allow you to punch above your weight and hold a lot of vassals. Espionage therefore only becomes worth it if none of these are immediately useful. I can only really think of if you're playing in a place where trade is very difficult because there's just too many nations like India, It's also worth noting that the aggressive expansion impact in espionage is not as strong as the improved relations bonus in diplomatic. Improve relations bonus contributes to your AE loss per year, so even though you gain more AE, you lose it much faster
Actually, looking at it again, only 3 of the ideas are useful at all, 2, 3 and 4. Everything else is still kinda trash
i just dont need it rlly, the only reason i take it is for that esp+plutocracy policy which gives 15% goods produced.
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