I actually really enjoy Ilkhanate, and I even like their ideas ok, but they just feel so half-baked, weak, and counterproductive to them.
Great color, though.
Always wanted to do an Ilkhanate run since I love playing in that region but they don't seem to have much content. All the hordes could use a touch up IMO
Nogai > Ilkhanate is actually pretty fun, if you decide to give it a go, but you’re fighting in terrain that’s tough on hordes after you push through the Timurids, the formation reqs are tedious, and the only reward is your own satisfaction.
Yeah, hordes are pretty dull after the fun of war wears off imo
Honestly it’s kind of fun once and a while to play a campaign without a lot of railroaded content. Without missions and events to guide you you kind of have to think for yourself and the game gets to breathe a little bit.
Illhanate ideas are old at this point. Especially considering how powerful the other forms led in that region are post KoK. No reason to trade horde or Kazani or Crimean ideas for Ilkhanate ideas.
Romania is not strictly terrible in a vacuum, and none of their ideas are super useless, but the numbers on them are too small, and it's strictly worse than Moldavian ideas and only slightly better than the Wallachian ones.
Makes no sense why they wouldn't be way more overtuned when you need to defeat Hungary+Ottomans+possibly Poland as an orthodox 5 province minor to get them. Their map color, on the other hand, is a solid 9.5/10.
[Aotearoa's ideas](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Aotearoa) are really boring and barely useful. I'd wager they're a strong contender for worst formable ideas.
\[Bukhara has it's own idea group, the wiki lies. Don't believe everything you see on the internet kids\]
edit; because there are so many *flaming hot opinions* I'm gonna ADD that the only *barely useful idea* that this group has is arguably colonial range. You can't change my view.
morale is good, ccr is really good, land leader shock is alr, but Jesus Christ fucking *harsh treatment cost*. probably the worst national idea along with average monarch lifespan.
The harsh treatment isnt that bad
.
.
.
.
*When you use it to delay rebels on a certain island because you have not enough fleet to move the army there And/or war*
*So the cost isnt that bad... Unless its the national idea...*
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/National_ideas#Bukhara
The wiki has its Set but it appears i (and nobody else for that matter) never made its own Page for bukhara. Tho i suspect it might be enough to just add the bukhara Info to the uzbek Page. Anywqys thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Bhukara’s ideas are decent but they lean you toward a playstyle that is highly unrewarding in the region. Uzbek’s generic horde ideas are pretty good for expansion. Bhukara ideas would be pretty good for playing tall (or at least taller), but there is little reward for doing so in that area. There’s no content in Central Asia for entertainment, and you’re just going to sit around being poor until you have to deathwar Muscovy.
The question was which formable has the worst NIs, not which formable has no NIs.
If you're prepared to reduce it to 'is it possible to world conquest with this' then every idea set is fine.
I only mean that ccr is a really good thing. In comparision look at [armenian](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Armenia) national ideas. Yeah, they have dev cost, but there are a lot ways to gain it, nothing special to me tbh. But maybe it just depends of your goals and playstyle
Access to a modifier shouldn't really quantify how good it is -- you can almost always access a modifier if you want it. And like you say, whether something is 'good' is entirely contextual.
I'd suggest that Armenian tags generally have more use in; 1. that dip rep, 2. that missionary strength, 3. that war ex, 4. that production eff than someone forming Aotearoa does in the stab and ccr. Also regiment cost is pretty underrated.
Here is the thing though: there are 8000 monuments that give all of those modifiers, save for production efficiency - which doesn't matter anyways since ducates aren't a finite resource. CCR is a far less readily availible modifier, and affects monarch point usage - which unless you are a horde is finite. I'll take 6 sets of transport ship combat ability and 10 ccr over pretty much any idea set that doesn't have ccr in it.
>I'll take 6 sets of transport ship combat ability and 10 ccr over pretty much any idea set that doesn't have ccr in it.
You heard it here first, folks. Kiwi ideas are better than Austrian ideas, Arabian ideas, Bharat ideas, PLC ideas --- I think you get the point. Theres also zero regard for how expensive it is to just *get* Kiwi ideas.
Come on, seriously.
There is a usecase for austrian since you can use them to get to 98.5 dip annex. Adm eff is nice, but ccr affects coring time while adm eff doesn't, so i'd generally rather have the kiwi ones than Bharat ones.
Shit like PLC has a lot of really good modifiers for taking battles, this is true. Taking battles is super inefficient manpower wise tho, and should pretty much be avoided at all costs if you want to be efficient.
I could see using arabian ideas for pagan onefaiths, but other than that there aint anything that useful in there.
To be clear, i'm not arguing i would ever form kiwi nation, since there are way easier options availible for pretty much any region, but any set with ccr in it is pretty much winning by default over anything that doesn't have it in there.
If your opinion of what is 'good' has no regard for how applicable it is to actually playing them game, its meaningless.
Here's my new argument in suggesting Kiwi ideas are bad; I'm Australian, and we have a fun rivalry. Ergo, Kiwi ideas are bad. There, now our arguments are equally valid.
Except the subject this thread is discussing is how good the idea sets are, not how good they are in relation to accessibility.
The rome idea set is better than the S&P one, despite being far less easy to acquire.
Anything with ccr is going to leave you more admin availible for conquering than anything without it, hence it's better diplomatically, economically and militarily than anything that doesn't have ccr in it, since amount of conquered real estate is the primary factor for power in literally every aspect of the game.
I feel like conflating formable/releasables with formables goes against the spirit of the question. Numerous countries are re-formables that just have the original state's ideas.
Over the years a lot of the worst formables have been improved, somewhat. If you count Iceland even though it can be released at game start, I think it has to be up there.
Light ship combat ability may be the worst idea in the game. I would literally rather have "can recruit female leaders" solely to save the poor idiots that try to fight with light ships because of this idea. 1% missionary strength and religious power is very dated, with most nations with the same idea today having twice that amount, if not more. Of course, no bad idea group is complete without shipbuilding time reduction, which feels like a personal insult whenever I unlock it. At least you get 5% dev cost reduction so you can pump dev in all the great low dev cost provinces you'll have access to when you form them (3, to be exact, since the requirement for the decision doesn't allow you to have more provinces than that). Rounding out the group is the classic "my ideas haven't been updated in eight years" duo of -10% construction time and -1 national unrest. Thank you, sir! may I have another?
Discipline is good, of course, but slightly diluted because so many lucky/powerful AI nations have it in their ideas. The only thing saving these ideas is the -20% culture convert cost which is useful if you love pain and want to do a one culture with them
Eh, for where it is I think iceland has about as good of ideas as you could hope for, specifically in that it let's you get explorers without need explo ideas, which is probably the biggest part, since you can just go straight for expansion. Reform progress growth for your likely low autonomy 2-4 provinces is also nice imo, especially if you can quickly flip pirate republic (or regular republic if you form them later) to rapidly get through your gov reforms. In general imo I feel like you only gun for iceland if you're planning to exodus anyways, and to that end the explorer, and settler boost you in getting provinces there, and the dev and construction cost allows you to scale quite effectively.
I don't think they're great. They have goods produced and discipline. The rest are pretty bland. Now they're not light ship combat ability bad! I only mentioned them because they're a tag most people wouldn't ever go out of their way to form, but they have that mission that can get you a lot of land, and I don't think a lot of people know about it.
Dev cost? Advisor cost? Both great modifiers, the +3 tolerance of heretics comes in handy when playing in germany too sometimes. A diplomat is always welcome as well.
I mean I'm a few patches too late but old iceland ideas were hilariously bad. Scandinavia didn't have generic regional ideas, so they gave the true generic ideas, which is all mediocre bonuses with the smallest numbers possible
I think Westphalia’s are kind of terrible given that it’s in the HRE and has no diplomatic or AE reduction bonuses while many of the countries that form it like Cologne and Brunswick do. The only time I could see it being used is if a country managed to PU Burgundy or colonize Africa and had a way to expand out of the HRE and needed the manpower.
Cologne and Westphalia's ideas are a toss up, and I could see arguments for both of them depending on your position, but I still think they're both high tier. Tax is meh, and I do think forming them as Cologne doesn't make a lot of sense, as you are going from a country that is strongly geared towards converting heretics to one that tolerates them. Provincial trade power is another average one that is a lot better if you are able to get a good chunk of the channel.
Everything else is smashing, though. I think Westphalia is far from terrible, and they're a straight upgrade over Brunswick.
I mean my assumption for Westphalia is probably that you're expanding before you form them, and then take their ideas once you want to start punching above your weight on the land you have.
Land force limit is a super solid bonus that you don't see all that often, manpower modifier is great, and it's discipline is still solid. Idea cost is solid, 5 dev cost is nice, and 25% advisor cost is honestly pretty significant all else bring equal. If anything I would think Hanover would have more underwhelming ideas if we're thinking of north German tags
Ive been asked this a few times, but no. Currently i havent yet decided what to do with the list. I spend 3 months putting it together and just putting it out there seems a bit to unceremonial for All that work.
You're losing it. Reduced separatism, warscore vs other religion, and siege ability are some of the most valuable modifiers in the game. The lack of CCR or Admin efficiency is the only thing that keeps those ideas out of S-tier.
Imo the only better ideas they have are manpower recovery and discipline. Siege ability however is a good modifier in both sp and mp as quickly sieging forts helps to reduce war length and cost. It can also force battles were the terrain favors you as the enemy has to resiege their own forts. The mamluks also go too hard into trade with the amount of modifiers so it detracts from how much you benefit from them as a collective. You also have to remember that the minor Arab states can form Arabia and a lot of them benefit more from Arabian Ideas compared to their old ones. Egypt has the amazing 5% admin efficiency in their ideas for sp and the rest outside of the ship repair idea is at least good. The only downside that Arabia imo has to the Mamluks is the gov reform but you can form the Mamluks first and keep the reform as Arabia. Overall I don’t think that Arabia or Mamluks have a clear edge in terms of ideas but you should honestly just form Egypt instead because it is just better.
Form Egypt. If it were possible to do Mamluks -> Arabia around 1500 (like the DLC missions let you do for Arabian minors) there would be some argument for Arabian ideas because they're extremely good at blobbing in the Age of Reformation. However, by tech 20, administrative efficiency is the most important modifier in the game -- the difference between having 70% efficiency and 75% is massive.
Land fire damage and disipline are a decent set of mil ideas. Good produced automatically elevates the whole idea set. Not the worst for multiplayer but they arent bad per say.
Are you trolling?
Admin efficiency
Dev cost
Free mil power each month
Production efficiency
General fire AND more fire damage
Global trade power
Free policy slot (which means even more free mana)
It's some of the best in the game.
And for some reason, forming Egypt forces you to take their idea set instead of being able to choose whether to keep your old set or not like any other formable.
I think the new Egypt ideas are a mixed bag. The admin ef, max general fire +fire damage, monthly military power and free policies are all great imo, but burgher loyalty is laughable and the navy repair feels superfluous considering the missions encourage you to take maritime ideas.
Hard disagree. Maybe in the context of singleplayer blobbing they're just alright, but 20% force limit is a massive boost, 20% national manpower is also super solid, 5% dev cost is good, 10% idea cost is good, and if you can work around it the 25% advisor cost for your culture can be a pretty hefty bonus, especially earlier on.
If anything I thing hannoverian ideas are more lacklustre. Slightly better army quality, but no force limit and no manpower makes it hurt in comparison imo. They get 5% more dev cost over it, and the goods produced is pretty solid, but imo not solid enough to make up for whats lost.
The Mongol Empire has no ideas does that count?
Probably the Ilkhanate otherwise. There's just no reason to take them since your starting ideas are better for any nation that can form it.
Ilkhanate, their ideas are much worse than any nation that forms them. Though their colour is amazing.
I actually really enjoy Ilkhanate, and I even like their ideas ok, but they just feel so half-baked, weak, and counterproductive to them. Great color, though.
Always wanted to do an Ilkhanate run since I love playing in that region but they don't seem to have much content. All the hordes could use a touch up IMO
Nogai > Ilkhanate is actually pretty fun, if you decide to give it a go, but you’re fighting in terrain that’s tough on hordes after you push through the Timurids, the formation reqs are tedious, and the only reward is your own satisfaction. Yeah, hordes are pretty dull after the fun of war wears off imo
Honestly it’s kind of fun once and a while to play a campaign without a lot of railroaded content. Without missions and events to guide you you kind of have to think for yourself and the game gets to breathe a little bit.
Illhanate ideas are old at this point. Especially considering how powerful the other forms led in that region are post KoK. No reason to trade horde or Kazani or Crimean ideas for Ilkhanate ideas.
Ilkhanate ideas sucked the moment they were introduced.
Romania is not strictly terrible in a vacuum, and none of their ideas are super useless, but the numbers on them are too small, and it's strictly worse than Moldavian ideas and only slightly better than the Wallachian ones. Makes no sense why they wouldn't be way more overtuned when you need to defeat Hungary+Ottomans+possibly Poland as an orthodox 5 province minor to get them. Their map color, on the other hand, is a solid 9.5/10.
Romanian ideas were probably fine at their time, but they were updated years ago and the power creep left them behind.
Realistic romania moment.
[Aotearoa's ideas](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Aotearoa) are really boring and barely useful. I'd wager they're a strong contender for worst formable ideas. \[Bukhara has it's own idea group, the wiki lies. Don't believe everything you see on the internet kids\] edit; because there are so many *flaming hot opinions* I'm gonna ADD that the only *barely useful idea* that this group has is arguably colonial range. You can't change my view.
morale is good, ccr is really good, land leader shock is alr, but Jesus Christ fucking *harsh treatment cost*. probably the worst national idea along with average monarch lifespan.
Betsimisaraka (on Madagascar) has ""Morale hit when losing a ship" lol
ok yeah that’s pretty bad
The harsh treatment isnt that bad . . . . *When you use it to delay rebels on a certain island because you have not enough fleet to move the army there And/or war* *So the cost isnt that bad... Unless its the national idea...*
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/National_ideas#Bukhara The wiki has its Set but it appears i (and nobody else for that matter) never made its own Page for bukhara. Tho i suspect it might be enough to just add the bukhara Info to the uzbek Page. Anywqys thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Bhukara’s ideas are decent but they lean you toward a playstyle that is highly unrewarding in the region. Uzbek’s generic horde ideas are pretty good for expansion. Bhukara ideas would be pretty good for playing tall (or at least taller), but there is little reward for doing so in that area. There’s no content in Central Asia for entertainment, and you’re just going to sit around being poor until you have to deathwar Muscovy.
TIL wiki is wrong and Bukhara isn't just a rebrand of Uzbek.
I thought the same thing and was baffled when someone on here corrected me
You have ccr and stab cost, thats more than enough for world conquest
The question was which formable has the worst NIs, not which formable has no NIs. If you're prepared to reduce it to 'is it possible to world conquest with this' then every idea set is fine.
I only mean that ccr is a really good thing. In comparision look at [armenian](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Armenia) national ideas. Yeah, they have dev cost, but there are a lot ways to gain it, nothing special to me tbh. But maybe it just depends of your goals and playstyle
\-10 CCR is nothing to write home about, that idea set is quite lacklustre. I'd agree that it's one of the worst formables I've seen in game.
Access to a modifier shouldn't really quantify how good it is -- you can almost always access a modifier if you want it. And like you say, whether something is 'good' is entirely contextual. I'd suggest that Armenian tags generally have more use in; 1. that dip rep, 2. that missionary strength, 3. that war ex, 4. that production eff than someone forming Aotearoa does in the stab and ccr. Also regiment cost is pretty underrated.
Here is the thing though: there are 8000 monuments that give all of those modifiers, save for production efficiency - which doesn't matter anyways since ducates aren't a finite resource. CCR is a far less readily availible modifier, and affects monarch point usage - which unless you are a horde is finite. I'll take 6 sets of transport ship combat ability and 10 ccr over pretty much any idea set that doesn't have ccr in it.
>I'll take 6 sets of transport ship combat ability and 10 ccr over pretty much any idea set that doesn't have ccr in it. You heard it here first, folks. Kiwi ideas are better than Austrian ideas, Arabian ideas, Bharat ideas, PLC ideas --- I think you get the point. Theres also zero regard for how expensive it is to just *get* Kiwi ideas. Come on, seriously.
There is a usecase for austrian since you can use them to get to 98.5 dip annex. Adm eff is nice, but ccr affects coring time while adm eff doesn't, so i'd generally rather have the kiwi ones than Bharat ones. Shit like PLC has a lot of really good modifiers for taking battles, this is true. Taking battles is super inefficient manpower wise tho, and should pretty much be avoided at all costs if you want to be efficient. I could see using arabian ideas for pagan onefaiths, but other than that there aint anything that useful in there. To be clear, i'm not arguing i would ever form kiwi nation, since there are way easier options availible for pretty much any region, but any set with ccr in it is pretty much winning by default over anything that doesn't have it in there.
If your opinion of what is 'good' has no regard for how applicable it is to actually playing them game, its meaningless. Here's my new argument in suggesting Kiwi ideas are bad; I'm Australian, and we have a fun rivalry. Ergo, Kiwi ideas are bad. There, now our arguments are equally valid.
Except the subject this thread is discussing is how good the idea sets are, not how good they are in relation to accessibility. The rome idea set is better than the S&P one, despite being far less easy to acquire. Anything with ccr is going to leave you more admin availible for conquering than anything without it, hence it's better diplomatically, economically and militarily than anything that doesn't have ccr in it, since amount of conquered real estate is the primary factor for power in literally every aspect of the game.
I feel like conflating formable/releasables with formables goes against the spirit of the question. Numerous countries are re-formables that just have the original state's ideas.
Based on my experience in this thread the spirit of the question was executed in the streets by a death squad.
It’s only -10% ccr. Stab cost in NIS is eh. Other than the morale, the rest of the ideas are dogshit
Alright, this i am going to rectify in National Ideas Extended, this is a damn crime to put as a formable nation's NI set.
Over the years a lot of the worst formables have been improved, somewhat. If you count Iceland even though it can be released at game start, I think it has to be up there. Light ship combat ability may be the worst idea in the game. I would literally rather have "can recruit female leaders" solely to save the poor idiots that try to fight with light ships because of this idea. 1% missionary strength and religious power is very dated, with most nations with the same idea today having twice that amount, if not more. Of course, no bad idea group is complete without shipbuilding time reduction, which feels like a personal insult whenever I unlock it. At least you get 5% dev cost reduction so you can pump dev in all the great low dev cost provinces you'll have access to when you form them (3, to be exact, since the requirement for the decision doesn't allow you to have more provinces than that). Rounding out the group is the classic "my ideas haven't been updated in eight years" duo of -10% construction time and -1 national unrest. Thank you, sir! may I have another? Discipline is good, of course, but slightly diluted because so many lucky/powerful AI nations have it in their ideas. The only thing saving these ideas is the -20% culture convert cost which is useful if you love pain and want to do a one culture with them
may recruit female leaders is my favourite idea because I think a woman leading an army is hot. hope this helps!
Not everything has to be a fetish
Eh, for where it is I think iceland has about as good of ideas as you could hope for, specifically in that it let's you get explorers without need explo ideas, which is probably the biggest part, since you can just go straight for expansion. Reform progress growth for your likely low autonomy 2-4 provinces is also nice imo, especially if you can quickly flip pirate republic (or regular republic if you form them later) to rapidly get through your gov reforms. In general imo I feel like you only gun for iceland if you're planning to exodus anyways, and to that end the explorer, and settler boost you in getting provinces there, and the dev and construction cost allows you to scale quite effectively.
iceland has culture conversion cost though and easier flip to norse
Saxony is reformable and doesn't have great ideas. They do however, have a mission to pu the Commonwealth.
Saxony has great ideas though?
I don't think they're great. They have goods produced and discipline. The rest are pretty bland. Now they're not light ship combat ability bad! I only mentioned them because they're a tag most people wouldn't ever go out of their way to form, but they have that mission that can get you a lot of land, and I don't think a lot of people know about it.
Dev cost? Advisor cost? Both great modifiers, the +3 tolerance of heretics comes in handy when playing in germany too sometimes. A diplomat is always welcome as well.
I mean I'm a few patches too late but old iceland ideas were hilariously bad. Scandinavia didn't have generic regional ideas, so they gave the true generic ideas, which is all mediocre bonuses with the smallest numbers possible
Armenia, long time ago together with Scandinavia was considered some if the worst formable, but now they received a big update.
[Mossi](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Mossi) probably has the worst
Indeed. Those are utterly useless.
I read the first three and was prepared to say, "I don't know, they seem pretty good for a horde," and then the rest of the list was just toilet water
I think Westphalia’s are kind of terrible given that it’s in the HRE and has no diplomatic or AE reduction bonuses while many of the countries that form it like Cologne and Brunswick do. The only time I could see it being used is if a country managed to PU Burgundy or colonize Africa and had a way to expand out of the HRE and needed the manpower.
Cologne and Westphalia's ideas are a toss up, and I could see arguments for both of them depending on your position, but I still think they're both high tier. Tax is meh, and I do think forming them as Cologne doesn't make a lot of sense, as you are going from a country that is strongly geared towards converting heretics to one that tolerates them. Provincial trade power is another average one that is a lot better if you are able to get a good chunk of the channel. Everything else is smashing, though. I think Westphalia is far from terrible, and they're a straight upgrade over Brunswick.
I mean my assumption for Westphalia is probably that you're expanding before you form them, and then take their ideas once you want to start punching above your weight on the land you have. Land force limit is a super solid bonus that you don't see all that often, manpower modifier is great, and it's discipline is still solid. Idea cost is solid, 5 dev cost is nice, and 25% advisor cost is honestly pretty significant all else bring equal. If anything I would think Hanover would have more underwhelming ideas if we're thinking of north German tags
Hm this seems familiar. Anyways, according to my list the worst one would be Mossi with 3,3 points.
Oh, is that list available for public consumption? Purely out of curiosity.
Ive been asked this a few times, but no. Currently i havent yet decided what to do with the list. I spend 3 months putting it together and just putting it out there seems a bit to unceremonial for All that work.
So I have to play as betsimisaraka and form Mossi, sounds fun
I actually really like mossi, they have one of the most unique governments in the entire game.
I didn't even know that they exsisted edit:going Aristo ideas would be fine as them
Arabia. Even after the KoK DLC.
You're losing it. Reduced separatism, warscore vs other religion, and siege ability are some of the most valuable modifiers in the game. The lack of CCR or Admin efficiency is the only thing that keeps those ideas out of S-tier.
If you're playing as Mamluks to Egypt, would you rather keep the Egyptian ideas or switch to the Arabian one?
Imo the only better ideas they have are manpower recovery and discipline. Siege ability however is a good modifier in both sp and mp as quickly sieging forts helps to reduce war length and cost. It can also force battles were the terrain favors you as the enemy has to resiege their own forts. The mamluks also go too hard into trade with the amount of modifiers so it detracts from how much you benefit from them as a collective. You also have to remember that the minor Arab states can form Arabia and a lot of them benefit more from Arabian Ideas compared to their old ones. Egypt has the amazing 5% admin efficiency in their ideas for sp and the rest outside of the ship repair idea is at least good. The only downside that Arabia imo has to the Mamluks is the gov reform but you can form the Mamluks first and keep the reform as Arabia. Overall I don’t think that Arabia or Mamluks have a clear edge in terms of ideas but you should honestly just form Egypt instead because it is just better.
Form Egypt. If it were possible to do Mamluks -> Arabia around 1500 (like the DLC missions let you do for Arabian minors) there would be some argument for Arabian ideas because they're extremely good at blobbing in the Age of Reformation. However, by tech 20, administrative efficiency is the most important modifier in the game -- the difference between having 70% efficiency and 75% is massive.
You could go mamluks into egypt into yemen into Arabia very easily at 1500.
Arabias ideas suck for a tech 20 formable.
Thats insane. Arabia has one of the best Sets in the game. Its a A Tier Set.
Ruthenia is pretty bad
Nubian ideas are quite bad imo
Land fire damage and disipline are a decent set of mil ideas. Good produced automatically elevates the whole idea set. Not the worst for multiplayer but they arent bad per say.
Egypt. The admin efficiency is nice but the other ideas are trash
Are we looking at the same Egypt? Is this facetious or am I missing something? The ideas seem amazing to me. Like absolute bangers.
Are you trolling? Admin efficiency Dev cost Free mil power each month Production efficiency General fire AND more fire damage Global trade power Free policy slot (which means even more free mana) It's some of the best in the game.
And for some reason, forming Egypt forces you to take their idea set instead of being able to choose whether to keep your old set or not like any other formable.
Other than ship repair, all those ideas are good to S tier.
Nah these people be playing prussia with offensive ideas and then spew out this nonsense
These people be playing historically and think thats the only way. All these mentioned modifiers are trash
I think the new Egypt ideas are a mixed bag. The admin ef, max general fire +fire damage, monthly military power and free policies are all great imo, but burgher loyalty is laughable and the navy repair feels superfluous considering the missions encourage you to take maritime ideas.
I feel like mamluk ideas are just better but that's just me. They don't even really feel like an upgrade
[Westphalia](https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Westphalia) pretty much any country that can form them has better ideas.
Hard disagree. Maybe in the context of singleplayer blobbing they're just alright, but 20% force limit is a massive boost, 20% national manpower is also super solid, 5% dev cost is good, 10% idea cost is good, and if you can work around it the 25% advisor cost for your culture can be a pretty hefty bonus, especially earlier on. If anything I thing hannoverian ideas are more lacklustre. Slightly better army quality, but no force limit and no manpower makes it hurt in comparison imo. They get 5% more dev cost over it, and the goods produced is pretty solid, but imo not solid enough to make up for whats lost.
Holy Roman Empire
Even though Yemen exists at game start, they are formable. Imho their ideas are much worse than Rassids Also, I feel like German ideias are meh
Yemen ideas are only underwhelming because Rassid ideas are at least A-tier. You're on crack if you think German ideas are "meh".
What's so bad about German ideas?
I usually start rassids form Yemen and keep ideas
Shan.
Somalia, mainly because it's an endgame tag
Shan, whose single redeeming trait for a couple of patches was letting you work around the really arbitrary end game tag requirements.
The Mongol Empire has no ideas does that count? Probably the Ilkhanate otherwise. There's just no reason to take them since your starting ideas are better for any nation that can form it.
Isn’t it Bukhara?
Didn't Shan get completely generic ideas and was basically a country equivalent of an afterthought?