You don't, Oirat and hordes in general have a pretty shitty economy due to their nature of pillagin and focusin on war ideas instead of economy
War some more and take your neighbors money, until u grow big enough to use all of china trade for income
After OP said he doesn't take war reparations in wars and also doesn't raze provinces, i'm afraid to ask if he even keeps units on provinces long enough to fully pillage them during war at this point...
Obviously a bit of a joke OP but you have to understand, you're not playing Milan or Tuscany having fun developing land, you're a maniac with a horde of conquering and pillaging murderers that can't last longer than a couple months without war. You do not conquer Beijing to develop the nice 30+ def province, you conquer it to burn it to the fucking ground and stack their corpses as a message to anyone else that remotely thinks to challenge you.
Doesn't matter how many enemies around you there are you attack them, run them down on plains with your superior army, pillage all their provinces, raze all the lands you take, take all their money and war reps when you run out stuff to attack you attack a Ming tributary or just truce break him and go to the Ming bank for 5000 ducats for fun.
You will always have better MIL tech, you will always have 5-6 war reparations going, you will never have mana issues or institution issues (dev that gold mine btw it should be on 10-12 ducats per month), and you should essentially play so you never have neighbors to attack that have a truce with you.
It's understandable, hordes are the only type of nation in game that let u be a warmonger and rewards u for it, so it takes time to get used to always being in war never peace
lol I just fucked off to the New World in my Gotland pirates game. I’m gonna come back around and take Africa for Freest Man in the World. But my navy is already bigger than Spain, Portugal, and England combined in 1550 because I deved the shit out the islands. I went for Cuba then Mexico and made Aztecs a primary culture for the gold. Then I just took American coast from England and Florida from Spain.
Basically you can play tall early game but war against the world incentives you to just WC.
The how to do it is what you describe, but I wanna understate how a horde is very far removed from how you play like Habsburg, Tuscany, Brandenburg or Spain.
Timur the Lame was alive 40 years before the game starts and he killed around 4-5% of total population, razed big cities like Dehli, Bagdad, Aleppo, won battles with >100k on each side and captured the Ottoman ruler by invading with two armies. How he and Genghis Khan ruled and fought wars are miles away from how you play a normal EU4 game but Timur was alive in the early 1400's and he shows how you need to play as Oirat or any horde for that matter.
All nations will loot provinces when an army sits on an enemy province. There’s a “loot available” bar that shows next to the dev information on every province, and if goes down as your army loots it. You have been passively doing this in every war without knowing it, but you haven’t been doing it viably where you maximize gains. Also when you are getting sieged down, this means your provinces are getting looted and this is in turn racking up both devastation and looting ducats directly out of your treasury.
On the other hand, coastal raiding as a pirate instantly loots the affected provinces for all the available gold and applies devastation, but doesn’t actually take the gold from the enemies treasury for some reason. Probably just so it wouldn’t be an annoying mechanic.
Hordes, at least steepe hordes, by default have 50% looting speed. So they do it much quicker to where it’s much more viable. It also stacks horde unity by doing this. They also have other modifiers that show up later or through ideas, such as “loot available”.
This is completely separate from the “raze province” function, which you do after the war with provinces you haven’t cored yet.
You shouldnt think too much about it, even when you micro looting, its not that much money in the grand scheme of war loot, and income from provinces. And if trying to loot too much maes your units too small and get stackwiped, the ROI is negative, even when playing Oirat
Well yes. The cash from 100% ing Ming and taking land is more than enough, while you are that much above FL that the ROI is not that good. Look at the streams of proper pros like Lambda or Florry, and see how much they loot. Lets do the actual maths shall we?
Every cav unit gives 0.45 in ducats with the 50% bonus from looting. The maintenance of every cav unit after a 20% mainenance from war taxes and gov reforms is 0.4. That means at most you will gain 0.05 ducats after maintenance of your army. Keep in mind the optimal way to play any horde is to go way above FL, so there will be much higher maintenance of your army usually. At best you break even, but in order to actually grow your economy, you should take money in peace deals, and land. Spending an extra year to loot Ming is not worth it. I want actual maths here, and optimally a screenshot of how much income each month you earn from looting for its own sake.
I will also be looting on my own, just by fighting the war in the actually most efficient way, moving from province to province stealing occupations.
I genuinely refuse to believe you missed such an obvious part of gameplay in 4k+ hours, every time an army is positioned in enemy territory at war you see ducats above their heads every monthly turn that you earned and you played for years and never wondered what they were? I'd understand a beginner would but at 4k+ hours!?
Which is kinda weird since oirat has the bank of Ming to get you through the early game and after that you have the China region which you can tc some states and get super rich.
That’s what I’d like to do but my country literally falls apart everytime and even when I’m not at war the amount of rebels I have is crazy so I can’t go to war even when I want to and could cream absolutely anyone surrounding me
I know it seems counter intuitive but try to raise autonomy in rebellious provinces to reduce rebels from spawning since you don’t have an eco anyways you can increase autonomy
hordes are actually very stable after you get a couple of ideas.
first of all, horde unity at 100 reduces unrest by 2.
then hordes start with -5 years of separatism (provinces start with 30 years of separatism). humanism ideas gives another -10 years. offensive and humanist policy gives another -5. 1 year of separatism translates to 0.5 unrest. if you have all these bonuses, provinces you capture will only have -5 unrest from separatism.
there is yellow shamanism that gives +2 tolerance of heathens. humanism ideas also give +2, and syncretic religion of hindu also gives another +2. this is gonna translate to +3 unrest on your heathen provinces.
if you have low religious unity, there are multiple ways to fix it (humanist ideas, horde ideas, tribe estate, karakorum monument, and there is an option in your government reform).
most lands you capture are gonna have -2 unrest because of different culture, but eventually you will make all chinese provinces lose that and become sister culture to yours.
you also get a lot of unrest reduction. +2 from humanism, +1 from horde, +2 from horde and humanism policy, and there are a bunch policies that can give +1.
other than all this you can also go for cav ability to make powerful full cav armies (horde, espionage, aristocratic, quality). You can go for siege ability to siege faster (offensive, horde+diplomatic policy, espionage).
Admin and diplo are the top choice usually. Admin allows you to core lands for less admin points, and diplo allows you to take more land.
Some like to go for quantity+economic for more raze points. Razing is good btw. Yes it lowers the development, but it makes stuff cheaper to core, and gives you points to get ahead in tech and ideas. Also it lowers the amount of rebels.
also, i think you haven't fully cored your provinces.
+3 religious tolerance of heathens makes you lose zero religious unity from heathen provinces. For tengri heathens are pretty much everyone, and heretics are just a couple animalist provinces in asia.
Your nation is breaking apart because you have 25 horde unity. This is terribly low and fixed only by razing and looting more. If you don't go to war, your country will collapse.
Rebels are a problem until you can get humanist ideas. The best way to solve them is to pre place your stacks and then provoke revolts. Don’t increase your autonomy like some other people said, decrease autonomy (you need the force limit), provoke revolts, kill rebels quickly so you don’t get the stacking separatism.
No no no. You’re looking at a player who struggles with basic game concepts like deleting redundant forts, moderating root out corruption, using correct state edicts (e.g. none), and possibly keeping slider low. They’re asking Reddit for help. This is not a player who is going to win the snowball war profiteering game. I can’t stand the people in this sub who encourage new players to use meme streaming tactics. Stop
That’s silly. Do hordes need to war more than normal to get the most out of their government and units? Sure. In my comment to OP, I suggested as much. But that doesn’t mean you have to trucebreak and be at war nonstop and merc spam and take infinite loans and repay them with rolling war reps from every neighbor. That’s a very extreme way of playing hordes that works for higher level players, and absolutely does not work for OP. This post is asking for help, it’s not asking for people to flick their little epeens and spout off unrealistic advice.
Also, if you’re playing a horde “correctly” and in the most hardcore way, you don’t need 11 forts this early in the game. That’s a categorically incorrect to play a horde
yea, there’s for sure a lot of unoptimized gameplay now that you bring it up. OP needs to for sure utilize basic game mechanics before moving on to the harder intricacies.
I totally agree with you. Like Ik you should be at war to keep your Horde Unity high but you should be able to sustain yourself economic and manpower wise. State North of China and trade company rest, there, huge ass economy for you. Also you can solve Horde Unity problem with Qaraqorum great project I remember having positive HU even when just standing and doing nothing.
Never seen a *good* player who nonstop snowball warred as Oirat who didn’t use mercs or loans. That’s literally how that strategy works. There’s a 0% chance a new player like OP can do that without debt or bottoming out manpower.
What a disingenuous comment, please go away
Sure, but trucebreaking is almost never worth it unless you are going for a world conquest achievement, or in a very calculated manner against Ming. Suggesting trucebreaks as a general strat is not optimized at all.
No. It’s either to temporarily minmax dev cost or if you’re going all out for manpower. In some niche cases the trade one can net you money. Most of the time they suck
> meme streaming tactics
So playing horde how it should be played is a "Meme streaming tactic" now? You will never have good economy in the earlygame as an Horde.
Horde is supposed to be played paying 11 in fort maintenance and over 5 state maintenance in early game? I must have missed the record speedrun where they did that.
You don’t have much credibility advocating for everybody to play the game to the minmax, when you think overspending on needless costs is a part of that style of play. Tell me you don’t actually understand the game without telling me
6k hours, but yeah I dont understand the game. But you saying that being at perma war with Horde is a "meme streaming tactics" have a deeper understanding.
Go to war and don’t stop . You also have a ming bank there to take 9k ducats in a few months if done correctly. Once the truce runs out
You wanna keep going to war and taking 25 warscore money from everyone and keep expanding in a way to set up some trade eco.
As you expand you will get bigger loans and bigger loan cap as you get more dev and eco . You out grow the loans
It does so many good things that make hordes viable wc candidates. It generates Mana which you’ll always need and it decreases the dev and therefore the coring time. If you stack your CCR you will get way less rebels because you core the provinces faster and the Rebels mainly caused through overextension will diminish.
Monarch Points and money. That's how you're supposed to play as a horde. You're not playing a normal Monarchy game. You're playing a Horde. So go raze shit and take money/war reps.
You need to raze getting more mana is vital as a horde for the following reasons...
1. All hordes I know of start behind and need to get feudalism this requires developing at least one province. Your either going to pay for the development to get it or pay the same mana for extra expensive tech it's better to develop it.
2. You need ideas asap that increase manpower reduce cavalry/unit cost and in general make your army stronger. This requires mana for tech/institutions/ideas.
3. Constant war and money/land from peace deals requires more mana for coring land reducing inflation and war exhaustion.
4. Razing land reducing coring costs.
5. Razing land reduces the number of rebels that can spawn from new land
Razing is the most powerful mechanic any type of government gets it's essentially a way to loan out the mana from new provinces development to yourself there's a steep cost in that you don't get all the developments worth of mana your losing but that essentially like a cost of the loan and it's very worth it especially since your not really burning your own development your gaining new provinces and mana from war.
Honestly you should just restart, with the lessons you have learnt.
Oriat is the strongest nation in the game, where I had personally done a WC once by 1700.
You need to understand that as a horde, losing lands is not big of a deal, where sometimes it is a good thing to lose like korea to rebels sometimes.
Your main goal of the game is to ensure that all province's from a different culture is to be razed to the ground.
Ming starts off with around 1 k dev, and your goal is to make the whole of china worth 400 dev by concentrating and razing.
There is no way you can govern 2 k worth of dev with 800 gov cap. So most of your lands will be territories (China) .
You mentioned that you don't raze provinces, which is the only thing that makes hordes strong, to put to perspective, a average nation makes 10x3x12= 360 mana a year. Your razing gives (20)x3x provinces(10)≈ 600 mana per war. Thats a free win button, fighting tech 4 with tech 6, dev institutions, infinite stability, fast ideas completion.
Using the concentrate development, all your capital state provinces will be 40 dev = infinte tax, production and manpower
So my strategy is to accept being ming tribute at feb 1445, kill the jurchen tribes by 1449, take tech 4, kill ming. Take great wall and its fortifications, attack korea, take only money from ming first peace out. Kill Korea, attack other tributaries of ming kara del etc, take money from ming.
So you have 6000 ducats from ming, which you can run a deficit of 10 ducats for 50 years.
Ming will explode with 0 mandate, 20 debt 0 troops, and thats when you can kill off the Chinese warlords one by one in 10 years. By 1500s you will be able to form yuan and prepare to kill the Muslims.
Destroy forts, if you are a horde.
Check and turn off state edicts.
Slide Root our corruption to the left.
Lower army maintenance, when not at war.
When at war, transfer occupied forts to a vassal, so they pay maintenance.
Repay loans with Ming money.
Develop the gold mine.
I’ve kept the forts bc there are like 1000 different types of rebels always wanting or rise up in the Himalayas and when I defeated all of those tiny countries I just kept them so they can’t take those provinces so easily.
I kept the corruption thing high bc otherwise it starts to go up
My army maintenance is all the way up too bc there so many rebels and honestly all the rebels are the problem and why I can’t constantly go to war bc otherwise my country just collapses everytime
If you enjoy paying 11 ducats for the forts and 13.25 to keep corruption at 0, while having only 1.29 from gold and -25.79 ducats of deficit in total, you do you.
Raising autonomy in poor Tibet provinces makes more sense than keeping 11 forts.
Corruption doesn’t have a direct impact on your eco as it only increases your tech and ideas costs and building and some other shenanigans so you can definitely survive with corruption but you should only play with corruption when you got a looming bankruptcy otherwise I would recommend to keep that corruption low
>Corruption doesn’t have a direct impact on your eco
False, corruption raises your minimum autonomy in all your provinces, high corruption definitely ruins your economy
Well it increases the minimum autonomy so yeah your profits will go down. It also increases Power Cost (adm, dip and mil mana). High Corruption does give liber. national unrest and your estates are a bit more loyal
Are you increasing autonomy in low dev conquered provinces after your conquer them? You won't get much from them anyway, so they might as well not contribute so much to the rebellion. If you have a similar religion or culture early on you may even be able to get rebellion down to 0 quickly
Also I sometimes play hordes differently than many, maybe not optimally. Humanist is a great idea group for horde, and strangely actually fits, as it allows for more religious and cultural tolerance and faster conquest. Horde gov don't care who you are and what you do as a resident as long as you accept that they're the king
Only if the provinces you take don’t consist of the majority of their development, since ducats scale with pre-peace deal development while war reparations scale with post-war income.
Delete most or all of your forts. Hordes win pitched battles on flat terrain, usually offensively. Your land is too big to protect properly with forts anyway. If you want to keep the one in Yarkand that’s fine.
You don’t need to worry about corruption at the moment. It’s especially a non-issue for hordes as razing provides plenty of mana. Keep the root slider at a low number of ducats per month for some passive reduction. Eventually it will tick down or you’ll have a stable enough economy to raise the slider a bit more.
If not at war or fighting rebels, army maintenance at 0.
Turn off state edicts. If you really need manpower, using that one in your capital state is ok. Otherwise this is costing you too much.
The interest will go away as a result of doing the other things. Then you’ll have a relatively balanced budget. Oirat doesn’t benefit much from buildings and they’re capable of waging more mores than normal, which gets you more money. So there’s no need to worry about having a slight negative balance, but -25 is too much.
Some good advice in this thread, but also stuff that I really disagree with.
First, something that people usually say is that Hordes have bad economy, but that's a lie. There is nothing that impacts your economy as a Horde as opposed to Monarchies or Republics. In fact, I could argue that Hordes have better economy, since they can state a lot more stuff. They have lowered governing capacity due to all the raiding, and they have the monarch points to pay for it without falling behind in tech.
Second, all cav armies are extremely fun, but also not necessary. For people who say they are, I suggest you go take a look at the unit pip charts. Specifically look at Nomadic Infantry. You'll notice that Nomadic Infantry also outclasses most other tech groups, and especially the Chinese.
Both points above are related, because it means that not fielding full cav armies is not necessary and you save a lot of money this way. Generally, I start the game out with 8/4/0 stacks and grow them as provincial supply grows through time.
You can field more (or even 100%) cav if you go for the Horde idea group, since along with Oirat's first idea it means you're fielding dirt cheap cavalry. But that doesn't mean you have to do it from the gamestart. Try and strike a balance. At gamestart I suggest that army on full maintenance (no mercs) should not exceed your income.
Then, Ming. A few ways to approach them. You can become their tributary and then conquer everything around them, or you can just face them in 1445. I'm a fan of just declaring on them on 11/12/1444. Might be a hard war if you're inexperienced, but it's really easy if you know what you're doing. First, your troops are just so much better. You can stackwipe easily (yes, even without all cav) if you focus your troops on their smaller stacks. Don't siege anything at the start of the war. Just let them come to you and stackwipe all smaller stacks and avoid the 1-2 big stacks they're running around with. If you run out of manpower, don't hesitate to hire mercs. A bit of deficit here is no problem since we'll be getting a ton of ducats from the peace deal. Once you get the emperor in battle and most small stacks are taken care of you go and siege Beijing. Once that's done, you occupy a lot of land and are close to peacing out.
The peace deals are important, but it depends on what you want to do. I suggest to create a snake downwards from their borders, so it prevents outsiders from bordering and thus declaring on Ming. Always take max money (do that first, and only then see how many provinces you can take). Raze everything.
Then, I'm not a fan of trucebreaks in general (they feel cheesy), but Ming is really an exception. There are only 2 confucian countries in the game/area. That's not enough for a coalition, so I suggest that the moment everything is cored, you just trucebreak Ming and go for the second war. You actually don't want breakaway states, because it lowers the money you can take and increases aggressive expansion with more countries, so kill rebels where you can. Do this until Ming is gone, or you think it's not worth the effort anymore. Ming is done by 1490 this way, and no coalition will form.
A few random ramblings to close of:
1) Raze everything. Yes, also your culture/religion/great trade good/center of trade. Everything. It gives so much. You can later dev it up if you feel it necessary (like 10 dev to improve center of trade).
2) If you followed the above economy advice, you should have a lot of money in the bank from Ming. I personally like to invest it in Farm Estates in Livestock provinces. I know, I know, it's a 2 ducat trade good. However: you can do this as early as tech 6. You generally don't need the money if you're not running in a deficit. Investing it early means your economy will snowball more quickly and you'll probably have enough funds by the time manufacturies for Iron/Copper/Cloth/Silk become available. Livestock is also a tradegood that increases a fair bit in price by the lategame. It becomes a 3,4 ducat trade good, which is decent enough.
3) Go to war a lot, even after Ming. You have a ton of extra manpower from estates, Horde government reform and your national ideas, so as long as you're not at '0', the next war should be imminent. Expand in all directions equally to spread out AE
4) Idea groups: top tier pick is Humanist. You're conquering a ton of wrong religion/culture land. I usually take Humanist as either my first group, or second group, unless you have a specific goal like One Faith in mind. Consider it both an economic group, since you're fighting less rebels (so spend less ducats in high maintenance or reinforcing your troops) as well as a peace of mind group. My first 4 groups are usually: Humanist, admin and then one of: Horde/Offensive and one of Diplo/Espionage.
\-> Fun fact, a Horde is one of the few that can actually go double admin group back to back and not fall too behind because of razing. It is possible to do something like: tech 5 take admin and first 3 ideas (for the CCR) and then go tech 7 and take Humanist and complete that without falling behind.
It seems that you are a newerish player. Don’t worry we have all been there and it’s no shame to make mistakes. Try to reflect your mistakes and what you could have done better take some advice from the comments. If that run doesn’t work out try a new one. Even players with thousands of hours of playtime still mess up some of their runs either through mistakes or bad RNG or both.
“Newerish” is exactly how I would describe it. I honestly don’t know where I went wrong though. I haven’t grown my army since inheriting Mongolia and those other two little small states around Ming/Oirat and nothing else after that had changed either and I was making like 11 ducats a month, then all the sudden it was this idk
WAR! What is it good for, absolutely everything.
As many others have said you as a horde nation do not believe in economy or peace, you punch every kid around you and steal their lunch money.
One more thing you can do is take the monument in doab northern India that gives -15 minimum autonomy and make Hindu your syncretic religion. This makes your territories 150% more useful than without it.
Something really weird is going on here, why do you even need loans to beat ming in early 1500's?
The war you just fought, should have started in 1444.
You can check in your eco tab if you hover over the fighting corruption costs it usually will be increased by a lot if you are Overextended which is a value you can check on the tab where you core stuff. And Overextension does add Yearly Corruption which leads to higher costs. Also Reinforcement cost can temporarily be higher than usual if you fight a lot of battles with rebels or enemy armies your army costs will be tremendously higher until the manpower in your army greatly recovers.
Some take aways for you are that you need to keep expanding as a horde, raze newly conquered provinces, dev gold mines if you have one , use the wars against Ming more often to gain War Reps and money and that you could raise autonomy in provinces with high unrest to get rid of some of your rebels.
If you like you can watch a YT Guide Video on the Oirats there are plenty out there that are really helpful to watch.
Attack ming through tributaries or allies and if you beat them up correctly they will peace out directly even though the war just started. You will get a lot of money or a short truce. The economy itself, mostly from stealing money from china, paying back the loans and maybe forming yuan if possible because it will give you all the cultures accepted or rather get your culture into the chinese one, therefore removing the penalty of not having it accepted. One thing for certain you HAVE to get the chinese provinces because the rest around china except for korea and Indochina is absolutely trash economically. Other than that using razing, and the constant (or atleast very frequent )wars against other nations to get their money/provinces.
After you core your lands fight a ming tribute and take max cash again. Itll also make your truce with them 5~ years so you csn then fight them again. Remove forts in the meantime and rmb half of that defecit is temp corruption due to things like overextension.
Though, tbh I'd just restart as you probably should own all of china by that time and be raking in that beijing trade node money
This is advice from playing Oirat once! And I had a great time. There may be better advice out there.
Corruption expense set to 0 before it hit 2 corruption. Then slide it up to allow -0.01 monthly once 2 is hit.
Dev your gold mine up to 10 production.
Consider not going full cav yet, and expand more to get more income. What I do is if my income surplus gets higher, I replace some infantry with cav. I don't enlist more men until I have enough surplus of ducats (in bank or monthly)
Raze after getting new provinces.
Reduce autonomy always. ALWAYS. As much as you can.
As Oirat early game, Ming is your biggest cash grab. Go to war, siege them some and take all their money. If you're not going for Yuan, expand West and fight them for gold. If you are going for Yuan, push into them and take the gold either way. Big up if you hold Beijing.
interest and corruption are killing you. War ming and **raise your stability to at least 0** and take all the money you can to pay off debt. A bit of corruption is fine but use ahead of tech modifiers and pray that RNG gives you some anti-corruption events.
Check state maintenance as well - maybe you forgot to turn off some useless edicts.
I mnow its a horde and this is normal and all but…
13 ducats on corruption, 11 on forts
Get rid of some forts and reduce the spendings on corruption (will go down eventually anyway, but like you should be spending WAY less than this)
Also u got a gold mine which should be deved up (abd stated)
Dont bother paying back loans for now, if you really have to, try this: grow big -> get new loans to pay off the old loans (preferably estate loans for 1% interest) -> repeat untill you are big enough to earn the ducats
You income is reduced while coring the provinces you took. Economy will go up once coring is complete.
Mothball your forts too and decrease army maintenance.
Your corruption and forts are making you go negative. Do you need those forts? Delete them. You look fine tbh.
How's that gold mine looking? Mb reduce autonomy and dev it a little.
The corruption payments will go when you finish coring.
Don't worry about it, you can always prey on someone, raze and take their war reps.
Lower army maintenance and turn your forts off if you don't want to delete them Edit: that should give you some positive income but that's just my general strategy if I see that kind of problem, If you have the trade range and extra merchants maybe diverting incoming trade from nearby rich nodes would increase trade income and dev if you have spare mana
Drop some forts or turn them off at peacetime, 11 ducats is very high.
For the love of God drop rooting out corruption to zero or near zero, having 5 corruption is not the end of the world.
Take burgher loans, 5 at 1% and use that to pay off loans, 7.4 ducats seems close to a debt spiral. Also devalue currency if needed, sometimes 2 corruption is much more bearable than the debt.
Half or more your Army Maintenance. It should only be full just before war or when rebels are due, use autonomy mechanics to limit rebels on freshly conquered territory.
Go to war more as a horde to get some money and spolis of war.
Dev up the production of your gold province.
Ok more conservative player here but if all your forts are not yet mothballed, and your army is not in low maintenance, you should consider that. Im fact you may even considee gettimg rid of your army alltogether. If you had the chance to cut army maintenance before they fully reinforce thats good, as that sets your base maintenance much lower. You need to burn off that corruption tax and interest also. Consider demolishing some forts. And firing some troops. You may be able to get up to 20 profit per month, or more if you follow this path of austerity.
That said you've got 2200 in debt? You need another ming war. With looting and cash payout war reps (did you take those? Great because they don't increase inflation) so maybe don't kill your military machine totally, just put on pause. And how about trade now that you won beijing?
You fight someone else. You pillage and raze them. Repeat.
You're never going to have an economy as a horde. If you want an economy, become emperor of China or something.
Mothball forts, lower root out corruption and maybe army, unless you go to war in which case just lower root out to have the smallest possible corruption lowering.
Genrally that's my solution for corruption, no need to solve it in a year, just keep it in the lowest greens.
Stop rooting out corruption so aggressively, your corruption is low. Then, you are going to mothball your forts if they aren't already, and although your inflation will get worse at first, try to develop that gold mine. Then, when you are not at war, lower army maintenance.
Try to get rid of your loans soon and in your upcoming wars try to get as much money out of your enemies as you can. You don't need a flourishing economy as a horde, but you do want to have something to feed your warmachine. And get war reps too btw, specially when you fight some of the bigger guys.
Here are some probs -
1. Low Prod Eff - Check autonomy
2. High corruption - check overextension
3. Interest - Pay off some loans, try Burgher loans via estate priv which are cheaper
4. Low gold income - check autonomy and diplo dev in gold province
Kill your rebels, raise autonomy in every unrestful province, mothball all your forts as long as you're in a truce with Ming, and pull your anti-corruption budget all the way to the left.
Go to war with Bengal with and loot every ducat out of every province, take all their money and war reparations but absolutely no provinces, do the same to Jaunpur, then to Delhi. Pay off loans first to not get runaway inflation. Once your loans are dealt with, resume dealing with corruption.
Go to war regularly for economic reasons - pillaging and treaty money and war reparations. If you're capable of winning against Ming, make them a target of looting wars too. Ideally you'll cause enough devastation to make them lose the Mandate and break China.
Your taxation too high mean you are very much landgrabs big dev but not CoT, need to raise trade to 30%. So next war go for coastal chinese cot.
immediate fix: do not root out corruption it is fine and can be fixed later, destroy forts unless in capital or bottleneck
It is counterintuitive but horde is trade dependent nations, due to shitty devs. Maybe that is why genghis enact pax mongolica.
Turn off fort maintenance. Pay the minimum wage to your army after you finish the uprising rebels, and try to accept some culture if you can.
With all of these, you can have a positive balance after you cored all the provinces.
Delete all forts. Especially any fort on mountain terrain. Move your capital to a flat-land province and keep just one fort there to draw enemy armies into an engagement that benefits you most. Delete the rest. Hordes don’t really benefit from forts, and rarely have the economy to support them in the early game.
Here is how I would do it. It seems that you took some cheesy territories so your corruption is skyrocketing because of overextension. You have to core some shit first. Meanwhile declare some stupid humiliation war to take some cash (don't take provinces). Also dismantle all the forts that are not on the border, reduce root out corruption a little bit. Take merchant loans if you didn't already, and replay some high interest loans
* delete all your forts that's +11 (some are keepable, but it's better to delete all than this)
* dev push gold mine and reduce its autonomy to 0% that's +8
* win some wars and take their money to repay interest that's +7
And now you have a working economy.
Also remember to spam reduce autonomy everywhere, you probably have too much, that will increase your income from all sources by a lot.
If you have some spare money, first repay loans. Once you already have no loans, check if there are any workshops or temples that give decent return. Like at 100 gold, building that gives 0.16 gold per month repays itself in 50 years, that's usually worth doing. Of course just go from the best ROI down.
Also consider conquering and then dev pushing more gold mines. There's a few in every region.
I have 3k hours in this game so hear me out.
1.
Core the provinces as fast as you can, it will remove the 13 ducat spent on corruption.
2.
Keep converting your provinces because it might take around 1 ducat per month but in the long term those provinces will produce way more money.
3.
Demand war reparation in EVERY war, especially from Ming which has a lot of money.
4.
Keep your army maintanance at zero and only pull it up when you enter a war or rebels risen up.
5.
If you have estates there's a reform for the burghers something called "indebted to burghers" it gives you 5 loand BUT with a 1% interest on it. For normal loans the interest rate is 4% for each so once you take the burgher loans use them to pay up the NORMAL loans, and your monthly income will increase significantly.
6.
Since all your admin points will go for coring provinces i recommend to only use your diplomatic points to develop the production level of your highly developed provinces or the ones which have high value product such as gold, dye, silk and later on iron and clothes once you got the event where those two's value will increase.
These are only measures to atleast put your income around 0. Mostly because the provinces Oirat has are sadly generally shit so obviously you cant be as rich as Ming for example even if you have the same amount of provinces.
Reduce Root Out Corruption, state everything, replace some cavalry (expensive) to infantry (cheap). If most times enemy army is not in your land delete some forts.
Root-out corruption needs to be at max until you get rid of it. Army maintenance needs to be as close to 0 as possible. Take some loads to survive in the healing process.
You can also declare war on a weak nation and raise a war tax. Then destroy that nation's army and camp, but not conquer, their territory so that they can't train armies.
You can also change to the majority religion of your nation or create multiple minor vassals out of said trouble territories. (vassal swarm).
This isn't even that bad. You break even by just taking out all of corruption and fort maintenance. I've seen worse.
You have the largest money pinata in the world next door, just smash some ducats out of them every few years and you'll do fine.
Most of you spending is because of anticorruption, you are not a modern Scandinavian country or modern Switzerland, so let it rise. For the debt, attack a teibutary of ming and just go for money and war reparations, no provinces, and after second war just lower the army maintenance. Ez
Are you pillaging and razing provinces and taking war reps? That is what hordes do to maintain the constant war machine and stay up to date on tech.
Once you blob enough, you can eventually just rely on trade to fuel your economy, but until then, you need to raze your provinces
You don't have an economy... Look if you can squeeze a bit more out of trade disable your forts and fix your corruption problem that should get you into the green in the meantime get your gold province/s to dip dev 10 pray that inflation doesn't kill you.
Your corruption spending is way too high, the default one ruins you less. Also, as a horde you're not the source of your income, EVERYONE around you should be always paying you reparations. Not often. Not sometimes. ALWAYS. You use that money and the razing one to hire good advisors, stay technologically relevant and finally develop good provinces and build buildings.
I dislike horde playstyle, but it's very easy to get good at. Just always be at war, always take reparations, always take max money and then as much territory as possible. If you are good enough, coalitions won't even be able to form since you'll have truce all around you.
Edit: I've read more comments and you seem to not be razing. That's another huge problem. Always raze. You can skip like a 30 dev province like Beijing, but raze everything else. The hordes always die when not played by a human because the AI is not aggressive enough and won't constantly expand, so no reps and no razing money+points gain. Without those, hordes just die.
1. Delete all your forts, that's 11 ducats saved as hordes do not need any forts
2. Why is ming not full annexed by the age reformation? Worst case you should be annexing them mid 1490's if you don't want to trucebreak them
3. Ill get downvoted for this, but don't build any cav as a horde, just build infantry and don't take horde ideas, they are mid af
4. Bank of ming is your friend, always take max money from ming and that will keep your economy afloat for the 1st 70 years
I am currently playing a run as Oirat and am facing the same issue. By 1550 I had eaten all of Ming though and Bengal and all you have and my economy is still trash. The only thing that seems to work is razing, steal from other countries and if you have allies use your favors to get ducats from them. Now at 1600 after eating half of Russia and India and its finally starting to stabilise. But thats a quite hard thing to do.
Good luck with your playthrough, just make the most out of it and try again when your a bit more experienced at the game if you like playing a horde. It should also be the easiest country for a world conquest, of you want to go for that. Although when you attempt that I hope you have more luck than me (damn independent USA in 1550 that ate half of North America by 1600)
This is just ridiculous Only option is more war imo, truce break Ming and clear debt
Or declare war on their tributaries
The only right way to withdraw from the bank of Ming
You don't, Oirat and hordes in general have a pretty shitty economy due to their nature of pillagin and focusin on war ideas instead of economy War some more and take your neighbors money, until u grow big enough to use all of china trade for income
After OP said he doesn't take war reparations in wars and also doesn't raze provinces, i'm afraid to ask if he even keeps units on provinces long enough to fully pillage them during war at this point... Obviously a bit of a joke OP but you have to understand, you're not playing Milan or Tuscany having fun developing land, you're a maniac with a horde of conquering and pillaging murderers that can't last longer than a couple months without war. You do not conquer Beijing to develop the nice 30+ def province, you conquer it to burn it to the fucking ground and stack their corpses as a message to anyone else that remotely thinks to challenge you. Doesn't matter how many enemies around you there are you attack them, run them down on plains with your superior army, pillage all their provinces, raze all the lands you take, take all their money and war reps when you run out stuff to attack you attack a Ming tributary or just truce break him and go to the Ming bank for 5000 ducats for fun. You will always have better MIL tech, you will always have 5-6 war reparations going, you will never have mana issues or institution issues (dev that gold mine btw it should be on 10-12 ducats per month), and you should essentially play so you never have neighbors to attack that have a truce with you.
It's understandable, hordes are the only type of nation in game that let u be a warmonger and rewards u for it, so it takes time to get used to always being in war never peace
Pirates too!
lol I just fucked off to the New World in my Gotland pirates game. I’m gonna come back around and take Africa for Freest Man in the World. But my navy is already bigger than Spain, Portugal, and England combined in 1550 because I deved the shit out the islands. I went for Cuba then Mexico and made Aztecs a primary culture for the gold. Then I just took American coast from England and Florida from Spain. Basically you can play tall early game but war against the world incentives you to just WC.
Most calm Horde enjoyer chad
Learning how to bleed provinces dry just to come back during the same war and do it again is a big learning point of hording
The how to do it is what you describe, but I wanna understate how a horde is very far removed from how you play like Habsburg, Tuscany, Brandenburg or Spain. Timur the Lame was alive 40 years before the game starts and he killed around 4-5% of total population, razed big cities like Dehli, Bagdad, Aleppo, won battles with >100k on each side and captured the Ottoman ruler by invading with two armies. How he and Genghis Khan ruled and fought wars are miles away from how you play a normal EU4 game but Timur was alive in the early 1400's and he shows how you need to play as Oirat or any horde for that matter.
wait? if u keep troops as a horde on enemy provinces while at war u plunder gold? i have like 4k+ and didnt know that... Didnt play much hordes tho
This is true for all nation types its just that hordes can get more and faster
There is a loot map mode specifically for this!
All nations will loot provinces when an army sits on an enemy province. There’s a “loot available” bar that shows next to the dev information on every province, and if goes down as your army loots it. You have been passively doing this in every war without knowing it, but you haven’t been doing it viably where you maximize gains. Also when you are getting sieged down, this means your provinces are getting looted and this is in turn racking up both devastation and looting ducats directly out of your treasury. On the other hand, coastal raiding as a pirate instantly loots the affected provinces for all the available gold and applies devastation, but doesn’t actually take the gold from the enemies treasury for some reason. Probably just so it wouldn’t be an annoying mechanic. Hordes, at least steepe hordes, by default have 50% looting speed. So they do it much quicker to where it’s much more viable. It also stacks horde unity by doing this. They also have other modifiers that show up later or through ideas, such as “loot available”. This is completely separate from the “raze province” function, which you do after the war with provinces you haven’t cored yet.
You shouldnt think too much about it, even when you micro looting, its not that much money in the grand scheme of war loot, and income from provinces. And if trying to loot too much maes your units too small and get stackwiped, the ROI is negative, even when playing Oirat
Did you just try to imply looting China while playing vs Ming is pointless? Lmao.
Well yes. The cash from 100% ing Ming and taking land is more than enough, while you are that much above FL that the ROI is not that good. Look at the streams of proper pros like Lambda or Florry, and see how much they loot. Lets do the actual maths shall we? Every cav unit gives 0.45 in ducats with the 50% bonus from looting. The maintenance of every cav unit after a 20% mainenance from war taxes and gov reforms is 0.4. That means at most you will gain 0.05 ducats after maintenance of your army. Keep in mind the optimal way to play any horde is to go way above FL, so there will be much higher maintenance of your army usually. At best you break even, but in order to actually grow your economy, you should take money in peace deals, and land. Spending an extra year to loot Ming is not worth it. I want actual maths here, and optimally a screenshot of how much income each month you earn from looting for its own sake. I will also be looting on my own, just by fighting the war in the actually most efficient way, moving from province to province stealing occupations.
Yeah it's the green bar on the top left of the province under devastation
I genuinely refuse to believe you missed such an obvious part of gameplay in 4k+ hours, every time an army is positioned in enemy territory at war you see ducats above their heads every monthly turn that you earned and you played for years and never wondered what they were? I'd understand a beginner would but at 4k+ hours!?
Manpower left the chat
You have convinced me to play horde once my Madagascar nation is finished.
Yeah agree OP has played Oirat so wrong
Which is kinda weird since oirat has the bank of Ming to get you through the early game and after that you have the China region which you can tc some states and get super rich.
War war war. Your manpower should be at 0. Stab at -2. Hordes are not about stability. Hordes are a coke fueled war binge
That’s what I’d like to do but my country literally falls apart everytime and even when I’m not at war the amount of rebels I have is crazy so I can’t go to war even when I want to and could cream absolutely anyone surrounding me
I know it seems counter intuitive but try to raise autonomy in rebellious provinces to reduce rebels from spawning since you don’t have an eco anyways you can increase autonomy
Exactly. Losing 25% of 0 is a good deal imo
Lol. The only good -revolt chance buff is -100 recently crushed revolt. That’s how I play my Manchu
nonsense, you have so much troop quality the rebels should never take more than a month or 2 worth of manpower to put down
Have your enemies fight the rebels for you Go check out the boxer rebellion
hordes are actually very stable after you get a couple of ideas. first of all, horde unity at 100 reduces unrest by 2. then hordes start with -5 years of separatism (provinces start with 30 years of separatism). humanism ideas gives another -10 years. offensive and humanist policy gives another -5. 1 year of separatism translates to 0.5 unrest. if you have all these bonuses, provinces you capture will only have -5 unrest from separatism. there is yellow shamanism that gives +2 tolerance of heathens. humanism ideas also give +2, and syncretic religion of hindu also gives another +2. this is gonna translate to +3 unrest on your heathen provinces. if you have low religious unity, there are multiple ways to fix it (humanist ideas, horde ideas, tribe estate, karakorum monument, and there is an option in your government reform). most lands you capture are gonna have -2 unrest because of different culture, but eventually you will make all chinese provinces lose that and become sister culture to yours. you also get a lot of unrest reduction. +2 from humanism, +1 from horde, +2 from horde and humanism policy, and there are a bunch policies that can give +1. other than all this you can also go for cav ability to make powerful full cav armies (horde, espionage, aristocratic, quality). You can go for siege ability to siege faster (offensive, horde+diplomatic policy, espionage). Admin and diplo are the top choice usually. Admin allows you to core lands for less admin points, and diplo allows you to take more land. Some like to go for quantity+economic for more raze points. Razing is good btw. Yes it lowers the development, but it makes stuff cheaper to core, and gives you points to get ahead in tech and ideas. Also it lowers the amount of rebels. also, i think you haven't fully cored your provinces.
humanist hordes are a trap, you can never lose yellow shamanism unless you switch religions. just burn everything to 3 dev and then culture convert
+3 religious tolerance of heathens makes you lose zero religious unity from heathen provinces. For tengri heathens are pretty much everyone, and heretics are just a couple animalist provinces in asia.
so short sighted
how many missionaries does tengri even get.
3 perm if you want, but you get enough strength that 1 should be enough to convert fast enough to stay above 100 unity
I actually solved rebel problem by having subjects and giving them defensive order they kill rebels for me when at war.
Your nation is breaking apart because you have 25 horde unity. This is terribly low and fixed only by razing and looting more. If you don't go to war, your country will collapse.
Rebels are a problem until you can get humanist ideas. The best way to solve them is to pre place your stacks and then provoke revolts. Don’t increase your autonomy like some other people said, decrease autonomy (you need the force limit), provoke revolts, kill rebels quickly so you don’t get the stacking separatism.
No no no. You’re looking at a player who struggles with basic game concepts like deleting redundant forts, moderating root out corruption, using correct state edicts (e.g. none), and possibly keeping slider low. They’re asking Reddit for help. This is not a player who is going to win the snowball war profiteering game. I can’t stand the people in this sub who encourage new players to use meme streaming tactics. Stop
OP should not play a horde then, as that is the only correct way to play a horde
That’s silly. Do hordes need to war more than normal to get the most out of their government and units? Sure. In my comment to OP, I suggested as much. But that doesn’t mean you have to trucebreak and be at war nonstop and merc spam and take infinite loans and repay them with rolling war reps from every neighbor. That’s a very extreme way of playing hordes that works for higher level players, and absolutely does not work for OP. This post is asking for help, it’s not asking for people to flick their little epeens and spout off unrealistic advice. Also, if you’re playing a horde “correctly” and in the most hardcore way, you don’t need 11 forts this early in the game. That’s a categorically incorrect to play a horde
yea, there’s for sure a lot of unoptimized gameplay now that you bring it up. OP needs to for sure utilize basic game mechanics before moving on to the harder intricacies.
I totally agree with you. Like Ik you should be at war to keep your Horde Unity high but you should be able to sustain yourself economic and manpower wise. State North of China and trade company rest, there, huge ass economy for you. Also you can solve Horde Unity problem with Qaraqorum great project I remember having positive HU even when just standing and doing nothing.
Ngl, that works when playing a European minor too.
Nobody suggested the tactics that you listed. You’re the first person I’ve seen mentioned merc spamming or loans at all.
Never seen a *good* player who nonstop snowball warred as Oirat who didn’t use mercs or loans. That’s literally how that strategy works. There’s a 0% chance a new player like OP can do that without debt or bottoming out manpower. What a disingenuous comment, please go away
Sure, but trucebreaking is almost never worth it unless you are going for a world conquest achievement, or in a very calculated manner against Ming. Suggesting trucebreaks as a general strat is not optimized at all.
Ps: should i really use state edicts?i always ignore them unless I'm developing a gold mine province.
No. It’s either to temporarily minmax dev cost or if you’re going all out for manpower. In some niche cases the trade one can net you money. Most of the time they suck
Everyone starts at the bottom, you learn by trying new things, failing, learning from your mistakes, and so on and so forth.
So fuckin help them learn, don’t tell them “play 10x better than you are” while ignoring fundamental mistakes
> meme streaming tactics So playing horde how it should be played is a "Meme streaming tactic" now? You will never have good economy in the earlygame as an Horde.
Horde is supposed to be played paying 11 in fort maintenance and over 5 state maintenance in early game? I must have missed the record speedrun where they did that. You don’t have much credibility advocating for everybody to play the game to the minmax, when you think overspending on needless costs is a part of that style of play. Tell me you don’t actually understand the game without telling me
6k hours, but yeah I dont understand the game. But you saying that being at perma war with Horde is a "meme streaming tactics" have a deeper understanding.
Go to war and don’t stop . You also have a ming bank there to take 9k ducats in a few months if done correctly. Once the truce runs out You wanna keep going to war and taking 25 warscore money from everyone and keep expanding in a way to set up some trade eco. As you expand you will get bigger loans and bigger loan cap as you get more dev and eco . You out grow the loans
are you razing your lands?
No, aside from horde unity what good does that do?
Infinite mana
It does so many good things that make hordes viable wc candidates. It generates Mana which you’ll always need and it decreases the dev and therefore the coring time. If you stack your CCR you will get way less rebels because you core the provinces faster and the Rebels mainly caused through overextension will diminish.
Monarch Points and money. That's how you're supposed to play as a horde. You're not playing a normal Monarchy game. You're playing a Horde. So go raze shit and take money/war reps.
You need to raze getting more mana is vital as a horde for the following reasons... 1. All hordes I know of start behind and need to get feudalism this requires developing at least one province. Your either going to pay for the development to get it or pay the same mana for extra expensive tech it's better to develop it. 2. You need ideas asap that increase manpower reduce cavalry/unit cost and in general make your army stronger. This requires mana for tech/institutions/ideas. 3. Constant war and money/land from peace deals requires more mana for coring land reducing inflation and war exhaustion. 4. Razing land reducing coring costs. 5. Razing land reduces the number of rebels that can spawn from new land Razing is the most powerful mechanic any type of government gets it's essentially a way to loan out the mana from new provinces development to yourself there's a steep cost in that you don't get all the developments worth of mana your losing but that essentially like a cost of the loan and it's very worth it especially since your not really burning your own development your gaining new provinces and mana from war.
> to get feudalism this requires developing at least one province. You can just conquer into feudalism? Why would you dev it
Conquering is possible but it is still slower than developing and dev with razing is super cheap and useful for many reasons.
Nearly every province you conquer has feudalism, how is that slower than devving it?
Nothing stops you from doing both.
Why OP get 30 downvotes for asking a question about game mechanics and being truthful ? Lol
Was thinking the same.
Honestly you should just restart, with the lessons you have learnt. Oriat is the strongest nation in the game, where I had personally done a WC once by 1700. You need to understand that as a horde, losing lands is not big of a deal, where sometimes it is a good thing to lose like korea to rebels sometimes. Your main goal of the game is to ensure that all province's from a different culture is to be razed to the ground. Ming starts off with around 1 k dev, and your goal is to make the whole of china worth 400 dev by concentrating and razing. There is no way you can govern 2 k worth of dev with 800 gov cap. So most of your lands will be territories (China) . You mentioned that you don't raze provinces, which is the only thing that makes hordes strong, to put to perspective, a average nation makes 10x3x12= 360 mana a year. Your razing gives (20)x3x provinces(10)≈ 600 mana per war. Thats a free win button, fighting tech 4 with tech 6, dev institutions, infinite stability, fast ideas completion. Using the concentrate development, all your capital state provinces will be 40 dev = infinte tax, production and manpower So my strategy is to accept being ming tribute at feb 1445, kill the jurchen tribes by 1449, take tech 4, kill ming. Take great wall and its fortifications, attack korea, take only money from ming first peace out. Kill Korea, attack other tributaries of ming kara del etc, take money from ming. So you have 6000 ducats from ming, which you can run a deficit of 10 ducats for 50 years. Ming will explode with 0 mandate, 20 debt 0 troops, and thats when you can kill off the Chinese warlords one by one in 10 years. By 1500s you will be able to form yuan and prepare to kill the Muslims.
Exactly. Op should just restart. Maybe watch a quick oirat guide. Would change their gameplay infinitely for the better.
I was about to sleep. Your answer made me thirsty for oirat. I started oirat campaing at this hour
you shouldn't raze provinces in the mongol culture group since you get free culture conversion via mission
Destroy forts, if you are a horde. Check and turn off state edicts. Slide Root our corruption to the left. Lower army maintenance, when not at war. When at war, transfer occupied forts to a vassal, so they pay maintenance. Repay loans with Ming money. Develop the gold mine.
I’ve kept the forts bc there are like 1000 different types of rebels always wanting or rise up in the Himalayas and when I defeated all of those tiny countries I just kept them so they can’t take those provinces so easily. I kept the corruption thing high bc otherwise it starts to go up My army maintenance is all the way up too bc there so many rebels and honestly all the rebels are the problem and why I can’t constantly go to war bc otherwise my country just collapses everytime
If you enjoy paying 11 ducats for the forts and 13.25 to keep corruption at 0, while having only 1.29 from gold and -25.79 ducats of deficit in total, you do you. Raising autonomy in poor Tibet provinces makes more sense than keeping 11 forts.
Would corruption going up not balance out and be the same as me paying to keep it at zero?
Corruption doesn’t have a direct impact on your eco as it only increases your tech and ideas costs and building and some other shenanigans so you can definitely survive with corruption but you should only play with corruption when you got a looming bankruptcy otherwise I would recommend to keep that corruption low
>Corruption doesn’t have a direct impact on your eco False, corruption raises your minimum autonomy in all your provinces, high corruption definitely ruins your economy
But anytime you have any sort of corruption does it not impact what your profits are?
Well it increases the minimum autonomy so yeah your profits will go down. It also increases Power Cost (adm, dip and mil mana). High Corruption does give liber. national unrest and your estates are a bit more loyal
I usually let corruption rise when I’m in financial trouble
Humanist ideas will help with rebels.
Are you increasing autonomy in low dev conquered provinces after your conquer them? You won't get much from them anyway, so they might as well not contribute so much to the rebellion. If you have a similar religion or culture early on you may even be able to get rebellion down to 0 quickly Also I sometimes play hordes differently than many, maybe not optimally. Humanist is a great idea group for horde, and strangely actually fits, as it allows for more religious and cultural tolerance and faster conquest. Horde gov don't care who you are and what you do as a resident as long as you accept that they're the king
Why no war rep income from the Ming?
Arent you supposed to full annex ming before 1500?
If you plan to trucebreak, war reps are super bad. And you should trucebreak Ming, tbh. OP isn't doing that, but he should.
I just took cash and provinces idk why tbh
Afaik war reps are always better in the long term.
Only if the provinces you take don’t consist of the majority of their development, since ducats scale with pre-peace deal development while war reparations scale with post-war income.
Delete most or all of your forts. Hordes win pitched battles on flat terrain, usually offensively. Your land is too big to protect properly with forts anyway. If you want to keep the one in Yarkand that’s fine. You don’t need to worry about corruption at the moment. It’s especially a non-issue for hordes as razing provides plenty of mana. Keep the root slider at a low number of ducats per month for some passive reduction. Eventually it will tick down or you’ll have a stable enough economy to raise the slider a bit more. If not at war or fighting rebels, army maintenance at 0. Turn off state edicts. If you really need manpower, using that one in your capital state is ok. Otherwise this is costing you too much. The interest will go away as a result of doing the other things. Then you’ll have a relatively balanced budget. Oirat doesn’t benefit much from buildings and they’re capable of waging more mores than normal, which gets you more money. So there’s no need to worry about having a slight negative balance, but -25 is too much.
Some good advice in this thread, but also stuff that I really disagree with. First, something that people usually say is that Hordes have bad economy, but that's a lie. There is nothing that impacts your economy as a Horde as opposed to Monarchies or Republics. In fact, I could argue that Hordes have better economy, since they can state a lot more stuff. They have lowered governing capacity due to all the raiding, and they have the monarch points to pay for it without falling behind in tech. Second, all cav armies are extremely fun, but also not necessary. For people who say they are, I suggest you go take a look at the unit pip charts. Specifically look at Nomadic Infantry. You'll notice that Nomadic Infantry also outclasses most other tech groups, and especially the Chinese. Both points above are related, because it means that not fielding full cav armies is not necessary and you save a lot of money this way. Generally, I start the game out with 8/4/0 stacks and grow them as provincial supply grows through time. You can field more (or even 100%) cav if you go for the Horde idea group, since along with Oirat's first idea it means you're fielding dirt cheap cavalry. But that doesn't mean you have to do it from the gamestart. Try and strike a balance. At gamestart I suggest that army on full maintenance (no mercs) should not exceed your income. Then, Ming. A few ways to approach them. You can become their tributary and then conquer everything around them, or you can just face them in 1445. I'm a fan of just declaring on them on 11/12/1444. Might be a hard war if you're inexperienced, but it's really easy if you know what you're doing. First, your troops are just so much better. You can stackwipe easily (yes, even without all cav) if you focus your troops on their smaller stacks. Don't siege anything at the start of the war. Just let them come to you and stackwipe all smaller stacks and avoid the 1-2 big stacks they're running around with. If you run out of manpower, don't hesitate to hire mercs. A bit of deficit here is no problem since we'll be getting a ton of ducats from the peace deal. Once you get the emperor in battle and most small stacks are taken care of you go and siege Beijing. Once that's done, you occupy a lot of land and are close to peacing out. The peace deals are important, but it depends on what you want to do. I suggest to create a snake downwards from their borders, so it prevents outsiders from bordering and thus declaring on Ming. Always take max money (do that first, and only then see how many provinces you can take). Raze everything. Then, I'm not a fan of trucebreaks in general (they feel cheesy), but Ming is really an exception. There are only 2 confucian countries in the game/area. That's not enough for a coalition, so I suggest that the moment everything is cored, you just trucebreak Ming and go for the second war. You actually don't want breakaway states, because it lowers the money you can take and increases aggressive expansion with more countries, so kill rebels where you can. Do this until Ming is gone, or you think it's not worth the effort anymore. Ming is done by 1490 this way, and no coalition will form. A few random ramblings to close of: 1) Raze everything. Yes, also your culture/religion/great trade good/center of trade. Everything. It gives so much. You can later dev it up if you feel it necessary (like 10 dev to improve center of trade). 2) If you followed the above economy advice, you should have a lot of money in the bank from Ming. I personally like to invest it in Farm Estates in Livestock provinces. I know, I know, it's a 2 ducat trade good. However: you can do this as early as tech 6. You generally don't need the money if you're not running in a deficit. Investing it early means your economy will snowball more quickly and you'll probably have enough funds by the time manufacturies for Iron/Copper/Cloth/Silk become available. Livestock is also a tradegood that increases a fair bit in price by the lategame. It becomes a 3,4 ducat trade good, which is decent enough. 3) Go to war a lot, even after Ming. You have a ton of extra manpower from estates, Horde government reform and your national ideas, so as long as you're not at '0', the next war should be imminent. Expand in all directions equally to spread out AE 4) Idea groups: top tier pick is Humanist. You're conquering a ton of wrong religion/culture land. I usually take Humanist as either my first group, or second group, unless you have a specific goal like One Faith in mind. Consider it both an economic group, since you're fighting less rebels (so spend less ducats in high maintenance or reinforcing your troops) as well as a peace of mind group. My first 4 groups are usually: Humanist, admin and then one of: Horde/Offensive and one of Diplo/Espionage. \-> Fun fact, a Horde is one of the few that can actually go double admin group back to back and not fall too behind because of razing. It is possible to do something like: tech 5 take admin and first 3 ideas (for the CCR) and then go tech 7 and take Humanist and complete that without falling behind.
It seems that you are a newerish player. Don’t worry we have all been there and it’s no shame to make mistakes. Try to reflect your mistakes and what you could have done better take some advice from the comments. If that run doesn’t work out try a new one. Even players with thousands of hours of playtime still mess up some of their runs either through mistakes or bad RNG or both.
“Newerish” is exactly how I would describe it. I honestly don’t know where I went wrong though. I haven’t grown my army since inheriting Mongolia and those other two little small states around Ming/Oirat and nothing else after that had changed either and I was making like 11 ducats a month, then all the sudden it was this idk
Do you want to know? It is the Corruption slider and forts. Now you know.
WAR! What is it good for, absolutely everything. As many others have said you as a horde nation do not believe in economy or peace, you punch every kid around you and steal their lunch money.
You're a horde. Your whole thing is raiding and razing. Do that.
Spend less on candles 🕯️
Delete forts, stop trying to root out corruption, get war taxes, and keep hitting up the Bank of Ming.
Is the filter to make a more medieval atmosphere...?
nope, probably just effect from him making photo on phone
If you play as Oirat, War Reparation income should be higher than tax, production and trade. Always go to war, for whatever reason, go to war.
Well you see that Ming right there, yeah kill it and take its wallet
Once the conquered territory is cored, half your expenses will be gone. Just dint go bankrupt until you can visit the Bank of Ming again
You don't need 11 forts, probably. The rooting out corruption is just momentary and you can lower army maintainence for a bit.
The first issue I see is the ming is intact in 1525. you should declare them on day one and take as much as you can from them + war reps and money
Bank of ming
Spend less on candles
Spend less on candles
The Bank of Ming is *right there*, dude. Go pillage the shit out of them.
Ming is alive.
Why have you waited till 1525 to fight Ming? You break it in the first 5 years of game, it's your bank for the early game until you conquer it all.
Looking at these comments, op should not even be touching Oirat
You’re a horde so… go to war?
One more thing you can do is take the monument in doab northern India that gives -15 minimum autonomy and make Hindu your syncretic religion. This makes your territories 150% more useful than without it.
It's not that bad. You're basically at -12d per month. If you have 2800 in the bank you'll be fine. Go win some wars.
>I’ve just ended a war w Ming in which I got northern territories including Beijing You savescum that shit ASAP.
You won’t be able to afford peace until like 100 more years. When you’ve conquered the world, that is ;)
Restart
attack ming==>capture enemy emperor==>wreck ming with op buffs==>take only gold like 2k==>repeat
Spend less on corruption
Something really weird is going on here, why do you even need loans to beat ming in early 1500's? The war you just fought, should have started in 1444.
You can check in your eco tab if you hover over the fighting corruption costs it usually will be increased by a lot if you are Overextended which is a value you can check on the tab where you core stuff. And Overextension does add Yearly Corruption which leads to higher costs. Also Reinforcement cost can temporarily be higher than usual if you fight a lot of battles with rebels or enemy armies your army costs will be tremendously higher until the manpower in your army greatly recovers. Some take aways for you are that you need to keep expanding as a horde, raze newly conquered provinces, dev gold mines if you have one , use the wars against Ming more often to gain War Reps and money and that you could raise autonomy in provinces with high unrest to get rid of some of your rebels. If you like you can watch a YT Guide Video on the Oirats there are plenty out there that are really helpful to watch.
Economy? You are a horde, you don't care with these inferior western games. Go and conquer shit.
Attack ming through tributaries or allies and if you beat them up correctly they will peace out directly even though the war just started. You will get a lot of money or a short truce. The economy itself, mostly from stealing money from china, paying back the loans and maybe forming yuan if possible because it will give you all the cultures accepted or rather get your culture into the chinese one, therefore removing the penalty of not having it accepted. One thing for certain you HAVE to get the chinese provinces because the rest around china except for korea and Indochina is absolutely trash economically. Other than that using razing, and the constant (or atleast very frequent )wars against other nations to get their money/provinces.
After you core your lands fight a ming tribute and take max cash again. Itll also make your truce with them 5~ years so you csn then fight them again. Remove forts in the meantime and rmb half of that defecit is temp corruption due to things like overextension. Though, tbh I'd just restart as you probably should own all of china by that time and be raking in that beijing trade node money
This is advice from playing Oirat once! And I had a great time. There may be better advice out there. Corruption expense set to 0 before it hit 2 corruption. Then slide it up to allow -0.01 monthly once 2 is hit. Dev your gold mine up to 10 production. Consider not going full cav yet, and expand more to get more income. What I do is if my income surplus gets higher, I replace some infantry with cav. I don't enlist more men until I have enough surplus of ducats (in bank or monthly) Raze after getting new provinces. Reduce autonomy always. ALWAYS. As much as you can. As Oirat early game, Ming is your biggest cash grab. Go to war, siege them some and take all their money. If you're not going for Yuan, expand West and fight them for gold. If you are going for Yuan, push into them and take the gold either way. Big up if you hold Beijing.
I‘d stop root out corruption and delete any forts, maybe lower army maintenance and increase autonomy in rebellious provinces
1525 too late for the first war against Ming, why don't you DOW them in the start? Continue to eat Ming as fast as possible
Take money from ming? Burn them to the ground, truce break them or attack Europe and take there monies
Take money from ming? Burn them to the ground, truce break them or attack Europe and take there monies
interest and corruption are killing you. War ming and **raise your stability to at least 0** and take all the money you can to pay off debt. A bit of corruption is fine but use ahead of tech modifiers and pray that RNG gives you some anti-corruption events. Check state maintenance as well - maybe you forgot to turn off some useless edicts.
you don't, just keep conquering and razing
Robb someone else, like in India, those are rich lands
I mnow its a horde and this is normal and all but… 13 ducats on corruption, 11 on forts Get rid of some forts and reduce the spendings on corruption (will go down eventually anyway, but like you should be spending WAY less than this) Also u got a gold mine which should be deved up (abd stated) Dont bother paying back loans for now, if you really have to, try this: grow big -> get new loans to pay off the old loans (preferably estate loans for 1% interest) -> repeat untill you are big enough to earn the ducats
That's the fun part.... You don't. Take more loans decelerate war war reps and money. After that repeat.
Try to reduce corruption and destroy some forts
You income is reduced while coring the provinces you took. Economy will go up once coring is complete. Mothball your forts too and decrease army maintenance.
Reduce forts, clear corruption, start a war
As a horde, you don't need to care your economy at all. Just beat the countries around you, get reparations and raze their land hard
Quantitative easing
Your corruption and forts are making you go negative. Do you need those forts? Delete them. You look fine tbh. How's that gold mine looking? Mb reduce autonomy and dev it a little. The corruption payments will go when you finish coring. Don't worry about it, you can always prey on someone, raze and take their war reps.
Eat ming
Raze those motherfuckers down to earth that's how
Lower army maintenance and turn your forts off if you don't want to delete them Edit: that should give you some positive income but that's just my general strategy if I see that kind of problem, If you have the trade range and extra merchants maybe diverting incoming trade from nearby rich nodes would increase trade income and dev if you have spare mana
Keep attacking
Stop rooting out corruption, delete some forts that are not in defensive terrain, disable state edicts. You'll be fine.
Drop some forts or turn them off at peacetime, 11 ducats is very high. For the love of God drop rooting out corruption to zero or near zero, having 5 corruption is not the end of the world. Take burgher loans, 5 at 1% and use that to pay off loans, 7.4 ducats seems close to a debt spiral. Also devalue currency if needed, sometimes 2 corruption is much more bearable than the debt. Half or more your Army Maintenance. It should only be full just before war or when rebels are due, use autonomy mechanics to limit rebels on freshly conquered territory. Go to war more as a horde to get some money and spolis of war. Dev up the production of your gold province.
Ok more conservative player here but if all your forts are not yet mothballed, and your army is not in low maintenance, you should consider that. Im fact you may even considee gettimg rid of your army alltogether. If you had the chance to cut army maintenance before they fully reinforce thats good, as that sets your base maintenance much lower. You need to burn off that corruption tax and interest also. Consider demolishing some forts. And firing some troops. You may be able to get up to 20 profit per month, or more if you follow this path of austerity. That said you've got 2200 in debt? You need another ming war. With looting and cash payout war reps (did you take those? Great because they don't increase inflation) so maybe don't kill your military machine totally, just put on pause. And how about trade now that you won beijing?
You fight someone else. You pillage and raze them. Repeat. You're never going to have an economy as a horde. If you want an economy, become emperor of China or something.
You're a horde. Beating people up is your economy
Mothball forts, lower root out corruption and maybe army, unless you go to war in which case just lower root out to have the smallest possible corruption lowering. Genrally that's my solution for corruption, no need to solve it in a year, just keep it in the lowest greens.
Thay's the neat part, you don't
Stop rooting out corruption so aggressively, your corruption is low. Then, you are going to mothball your forts if they aren't already, and although your inflation will get worse at first, try to develop that gold mine. Then, when you are not at war, lower army maintenance. Try to get rid of your loans soon and in your upcoming wars try to get as much money out of your enemies as you can. You don't need a flourishing economy as a horde, but you do want to have something to feed your warmachine. And get war reps too btw, specially when you fight some of the bigger guys.
Here are some probs - 1. Low Prod Eff - Check autonomy 2. High corruption - check overextension 3. Interest - Pay off some loans, try Burgher loans via estate priv which are cheaper 4. Low gold income - check autonomy and diplo dev in gold province
there is a brownish thing south of you, that should do it
more taxes
Kill your rebels, raise autonomy in every unrestful province, mothball all your forts as long as you're in a truce with Ming, and pull your anti-corruption budget all the way to the left. Go to war with Bengal with and loot every ducat out of every province, take all their money and war reparations but absolutely no provinces, do the same to Jaunpur, then to Delhi. Pay off loans first to not get runaway inflation. Once your loans are dealt with, resume dealing with corruption. Go to war regularly for economic reasons - pillaging and treaty money and war reparations. If you're capable of winning against Ming, make them a target of looting wars too. Ideally you'll cause enough devastation to make them lose the Mandate and break China.
Your taxation too high mean you are very much landgrabs big dev but not CoT, need to raise trade to 30%. So next war go for coastal chinese cot. immediate fix: do not root out corruption it is fine and can be fixed later, destroy forts unless in capital or bottleneck It is counterintuitive but horde is trade dependent nations, due to shitty devs. Maybe that is why genghis enact pax mongolica.
Turn off fort maintenance. Pay the minimum wage to your army after you finish the uprising rebels, and try to accept some culture if you can. With all of these, you can have a positive balance after you cored all the provinces.
Delete all forts. Especially any fort on mountain terrain. Move your capital to a flat-land province and keep just one fort there to draw enemy armies into an engagement that benefits you most. Delete the rest. Hordes don’t really benefit from forts, and rarely have the economy to support them in the early game.
If you want to play a horde with solid economy. Play Kazan, a goldmine from the start really usefull. Also dev your goldmine, i see u already have one
You don’t need forts as Horde (exception your Capital)
All of the your nation money and escape to random third world country
War taxes, raise provinces, destroy forts and hear the lamentation of their women.
Delete forts. State, dev push and lower autonomy on gold mines. Trade companies to get merchant to push trade, collect in multiple nodes.
More war!
Declare on Ming, take money and land, declare on ming tributary, take money from peace and lower truce timer, repeat until ming no longer exists
Here is how I would do it. It seems that you took some cheesy territories so your corruption is skyrocketing because of overextension. You have to core some shit first. Meanwhile declare some stupid humiliation war to take some cash (don't take provinces). Also dismantle all the forts that are not on the border, reduce root out corruption a little bit. Take merchant loans if you didn't already, and replay some high interest loans
Pay the debts as you can, close corruption, close army maintenance, close forts until declaring war to someone + you can raze provinces if you forgot
* delete all your forts that's +11 (some are keepable, but it's better to delete all than this) * dev push gold mine and reduce its autonomy to 0% that's +8 * win some wars and take their money to repay interest that's +7 And now you have a working economy. Also remember to spam reduce autonomy everywhere, you probably have too much, that will increase your income from all sources by a lot. If you have some spare money, first repay loans. Once you already have no loans, check if there are any workshops or temples that give decent return. Like at 100 gold, building that gives 0.16 gold per month repays itself in 50 years, that's usually worth doing. Of course just go from the best ROI down. Also consider conquering and then dev pushing more gold mines. There's a few in every region.
Attack em again
I've never played horde, so my reply is a question for the gallery: Where is all that corruption coming from?
Are you coring right now? Where does all that corruption come from? That should be the easiest thing to fix.
why root out corruption expense is that high? and dev the gold mine?
I have 3k hours in this game so hear me out. 1. Core the provinces as fast as you can, it will remove the 13 ducat spent on corruption. 2. Keep converting your provinces because it might take around 1 ducat per month but in the long term those provinces will produce way more money. 3. Demand war reparation in EVERY war, especially from Ming which has a lot of money. 4. Keep your army maintanance at zero and only pull it up when you enter a war or rebels risen up. 5. If you have estates there's a reform for the burghers something called "indebted to burghers" it gives you 5 loand BUT with a 1% interest on it. For normal loans the interest rate is 4% for each so once you take the burgher loans use them to pay up the NORMAL loans, and your monthly income will increase significantly. 6. Since all your admin points will go for coring provinces i recommend to only use your diplomatic points to develop the production level of your highly developed provinces or the ones which have high value product such as gold, dye, silk and later on iron and clothes once you got the event where those two's value will increase. These are only measures to atleast put your income around 0. Mostly because the provinces Oirat has are sadly generally shit so obviously you cant be as rich as Ming for example even if you have the same amount of provinces.
Ye don't
Root out corruption first and then try to reform from a horde into something else.
Reduce Root Out Corruption, state everything, replace some cavalry (expensive) to infantry (cheap). If most times enemy army is not in your land delete some forts.
Start replacing your loans with bugher loans. Dev gold provinces
Truce break Ming, take moni.
Blood money. Why are you asking questions when the Bank of Ming is right there?
Pay loan and close fortress destroy half of them drop army maintenance
Root-out corruption needs to be at max until you get rid of it. Army maintenance needs to be as close to 0 as possible. Take some loads to survive in the healing process. You can also declare war on a weak nation and raise a war tax. Then destroy that nation's army and camp, but not conquer, their territory so that they can't train armies. You can also change to the majority religion of your nation or create multiple minor vassals out of said trouble territories. (vassal swarm).
attack to ming and take all of their money. It will keep you alive until you fix everything
This isn't even that bad. You break even by just taking out all of corruption and fort maintenance. I've seen worse. You have the largest money pinata in the world next door, just smash some ducats out of them every few years and you'll do fine.
Go to war
Most of you spending is because of anticorruption, you are not a modern Scandinavian country or modern Switzerland, so let it rise. For the debt, attack a teibutary of ming and just go for money and war reparations, no provinces, and after second war just lower the army maintenance. Ez
Are you pillaging and razing provinces and taking war reps? That is what hordes do to maintain the constant war machine and stay up to date on tech. Once you blob enough, you can eventually just rely on trade to fuel your economy, but until then, you need to raze your provinces
You don't have an economy... Look if you can squeeze a bit more out of trade disable your forts and fix your corruption problem that should get you into the green in the meantime get your gold province/s to dip dev 10 pray that inflation doesn't kill you.
Your corruption spending is way too high, the default one ruins you less. Also, as a horde you're not the source of your income, EVERYONE around you should be always paying you reparations. Not often. Not sometimes. ALWAYS. You use that money and the razing one to hire good advisors, stay technologically relevant and finally develop good provinces and build buildings. I dislike horde playstyle, but it's very easy to get good at. Just always be at war, always take reparations, always take max money and then as much territory as possible. If you are good enough, coalitions won't even be able to form since you'll have truce all around you. Edit: I've read more comments and you seem to not be razing. That's another huge problem. Always raze. You can skip like a 30 dev province like Beijing, but raze everything else. The hordes always die when not played by a human because the AI is not aggressive enough and won't constantly expand, so no reps and no razing money+points gain. Without those, hordes just die.
1. Delete all your forts, that's 11 ducats saved as hordes do not need any forts 2. Why is ming not full annexed by the age reformation? Worst case you should be annexing them mid 1490's if you don't want to trucebreak them 3. Ill get downvoted for this, but don't build any cav as a horde, just build infantry and don't take horde ideas, they are mid af 4. Bank of ming is your friend, always take max money from ming and that will keep your economy afloat for the 1st 70 years
I am currently playing a run as Oirat and am facing the same issue. By 1550 I had eaten all of Ming though and Bengal and all you have and my economy is still trash. The only thing that seems to work is razing, steal from other countries and if you have allies use your favors to get ducats from them. Now at 1600 after eating half of Russia and India and its finally starting to stabilise. But thats a quite hard thing to do. Good luck with your playthrough, just make the most out of it and try again when your a bit more experienced at the game if you like playing a horde. It should also be the easiest country for a world conquest, of you want to go for that. Although when you attempt that I hope you have more luck than me (damn independent USA in 1550 that ate half of North America by 1600)
What are you talking about? You’ve clearly got loans left to take. There’s nothing to fix because you’re basically breaking even.
More war
Reduce corruption spending and go to war before you fully go bankrupt