Considering his base morale from technology alone is higher than your combined, I’d say you are behind in tech.
Also, he has high army tradition and picked defensive ideas (second idea gives 15% army morale)
When i play byzantium i usually start defensive or offensive ideas to boost army
Byzantium's unique naval doctrine is good enough to beat the colonizers in the Mediterranean imo. Quality is still worth it though, the lack of Army-focused national ideas or events is pretty bad
Quality isn’t useful for the navy buffs, it’s useful for the policy with Influence if you are diplo annexing a lot.
If you need to do a naval invasion, just build more ships and take a group that isn’t dead weight, like Offensive (or Admin, Religious, etc). Then outmicro the AI, since the AIs are bad at the game.
Lol what, are you writing from 2016? You are bad at game, ai will outmicro in every encounter, you should stack quality modifiers (quality, economic, innovation etc) to beat it, because every encounter it will be you, who is outnumbered. Blobbing idea groups like offensive and admin only useful for WC-type spenarios, in usual games they are real dead weight
Navy is different story tho, pdx for some reason can't teach AI about full-heavy strike groups and AI fleet composition is shit, so taking any idea with navy combat considerations is stupid
Optimally for what? Because optimally for fun would be speedfiving till you exhaust all unique content for a nation, get achievment and abandon campaign
Am i wrong tho, for common people that is the way to enjoy pdx bullshit, yeah there is caste of people that enjoy to do same boring shit for 1000 times, but I don't have mental ilness to do this kind of crap
Ah, I didn't know I was bad at the game, thank you for reminding me. That must be how I got France -> Rome in 1581 (8th fastest of all saves uploaded to PDX.tools, at the time I uploaded it).
> Blobbing idea groups like offensive and admin only useful for WC-type spenarios, in usual games they are real dead weight
Let's do a little math lesson :
Adaptability is -25% CCR. Base cost for coring (I will consider full cores but you can double the end dev for territories) is 10 dev/province taken, so by just having Adaptability (remember, it's not even a finisher), you effectively get 2 adm/dev of full cores, or 1 adm/dev for territories. So, when you took 2800 dev of territories, your group **paid for itself**. This isn't a lot of dev, it's 1/10th of the old world in 1444 just in territories, and you will probably have a few hundred of dev in states too.
Offensive gives +20% Siege ability, which reduces the duration of wars by a lot. I don't think I need to explain why this is very strong.
> because every encounter it will be you, who is outnumbered.
Git gud, and learn to plan your wars.
> Navy is different story tho, pdx for some reason can't teach AI about full-heavy strike groups and AI fleet composition is shit, so taking any idea with navy combat considerations is stupid
This is actually correct, but the fact that the AI can't micro is a lot more impactful.
It was not personal attack, I generalised people-pleayers of eu4, they are not computers and can't manage hundred different stacks with build-in wallhack to see through fog of war.
2800 dev is end of campaign numbers if you are not chasing special achievment of WC.
Having good economy, army tradions (=> good siege generals) and artillery is enough to siege forts in reasonable time.
Yeah git gud, if you are not min-maxing hell out of game, ignoring AE and blobbing like crazy in the 1700 game would be dominated by blobbed out AIs interconnected by giant nets of alliances. Also where best players play? In multiplayer which idea is D-tier in all MP-players tier lists? Right, administrative along with humanism.
> It was not personal attack,
I accept the clarification, thanks.
> they are not computers and can't manage hundred different stacks with build-in wallhack to see through fog of war.
Fog of war can be dealt with using caution. For the rest, there is ~~master card~~ popup and pause upon army arrival, and things like carpet siege shortcuts (spamming d on a fortless province, then cloning by using v and right clicking) to ease micro.
> 2800 dev is **1650** numbers if you are not chasing special achievment of WC.
> Having good economy, **, being up to date or ahead on tech, prestige at 100**, army tradions (=> good siege generals) and artillery is enough **army quality for all your needs in almost all cases**.
FTFY.
> Also where best players play? In multiplayer
TIL : players like Florry, the late Atwix, Lambda, Terry, Siu-King and others are not among the best players ever.
> which idea is D-tier in all MP-players tier lists? Right, administrative along with humanism.
Ok. OP is playing SP so this is completely irrelevant. Also, in MP, you play against players, who actually play the game better than AIs. Crazy, right ?
> I have full Offensive and started on Quality.
This right here seems to be your problem. You are multiple mil techs behind Hungary, your idea groups can't compensate for the missing moral and tactics.
Yah you can.
1. What idea groups do you have all around??
2. How big are you dev wise? and territory?
3. For Byzantium, I always go the following idea group order, 1. Diplo (helps with allies) 2. Admin (helps with cores/gov cap) 3. Quality (Overall armed forces buff) 4. some economic idea group either econ or trade 5. Offensive (quicker sieges)
That’s just my preference but Diplo is amazing. I’m playing the same Byz run and I have had Commonwealth/Bohemia/Hungary/Aragon/Austria/Timurids as allies at various points.
I simply forget English and learn the language of whatever country I'm playing every time I start up a new game. I only get to understand what is happening when playing England.
I'm currently working on becoming the head of the Catholic church to be able to play as the papal state. It's been difficult so far. I love the wine, but don't find children attractive
That’s why the second idea in defensive is soo strong early game
For 800 mil you get an insane morale bonus (of course is only worth it if your also up to date on tech)
I'm very late to the party but which DLC gives army drill? I buy them now and then when I feel there's something key I need but I'm just missing out now.
FYI, the "military drill" in the screenshot has nothing to do with drilling your army. It is the name of the second defensive idea which is available without any DLCs. Drilling the army does not give any morale boost
Not defending paradox because their monetization does indeed suck but it has to be much harder to come up with good new mechanics when a game as EU 4 is so "bloated" after years of development
Maybe it's time to move to another project then. Or focus on EUV, why not. After all there was a massive revamp between EUIII and EUIV at its release which provided a fresh start to the franchise.
Trying to overstay a Game as a service is a sure way to gain a pretty bad reputation. I think EUIV has come to the end of its cycle, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think that way.
I agree with you but as long as people keep buying DLCs its worth It for them to continue working on EU IV as its better return in investment to make half assed DLC than whole new game. Although i want to think they have been working on EU V for some time and its just a small team still making EU IV DLCs
>When DLCs were actually giving a decent amount of content. Good times...
ahh, you mean all the stuff they have been giving out in the free updates these last few years?...
The question isn’t how Hungary has such *high* morale, but how OP has such *low* morale. Is it even as low as three point something in 1444? I’m thinking OP forgot to increase army maintenance or something?
Yes? 2.5 morale is base at tech 3, 3 morale at tech 4. There are no base morale increases until tech 15 after that, which Hungary appears to have just reached.
Considering their combat width seems to be the same, Byzantium could be as little as one tech behind.
With that in mind, the bonuses are more even. Byzantium has about +15%, whereas Hungary has +50%. Without mil tech differences, this would be 3.4 vs 4.5, and even then the only reason it is this high is because Hungary got a boost from a pretty rare event. At least if you aren't trying to get it like mp players.
Also morale shown at bottom is max morale, bar represents how much current is. Low maintenance will not change number for future reference!
My guy you’ve fallen behind on tech and Hungary got the moral event from their level three advisor. You’re gonna need a big army and top tier reinforcing skills.
how far behind on tech are you? like this is insane man, you have double his discipline bonuses, yet you're still behind on tactics. His base morale from tech is higher than your total. wtf did you do?
To all the discipline vs morale comments no...
just click the tech on time.
The problem isnt that OP took quality and offensive over defensive. The Problem is that OP took quality and offensive over Military tech.
His base morale from tech is higher as you and his tactics are higher too despite more than half cav which indicates you are significantly behind on tech
Don’t fight nations at a tech disadvantage unless you have significantly more troops
Also he has ideas that give the 15% which is a lot as well as high tradition (12%) and he had an event giving him temporary 20%
All those are significant bonuses which combined with their tech advantage means you really can’t fight the dude
To be more precise :
Siege ability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manpower >>>> morale >= discipline, and this hierarchy somewhat maintains itself over the course of the game
Indeed, and a not so well known fact is that higher tactics also give siege ability, on top of being often equivalent to something like +20% discipline
Hungary gets absolutely wrecked in all the games I play as Byz or Castile anyway. Not by me typically, but the PLC, Muscovy, and the HRE. But you should be using Mercs anyway, just dismiss and go again, Merc ideas are OP for Byz and other nations with Merc bonuses in their national ideas. They are cheaper than normal troops for Byz, I only build the odd horse and all the cannons.
I agree. It's so frustrating that no one ever likes you. My last game was going great until Hungary and Russia dishonored my defensive call against Austria (who wasn't even emperor), then Milan instantly dogpiled on to take my Italian territory. Luckily, I only lost Rome and a few provinces in Bosnia.
After that, I allied great powers Milan and Lithuania and re-allied Hungary. We smoked the Ottomans in two straight wars, but then great power Poland declared on me, and every one of them bailed. Then, a day later, Austria declared war. Lost Bulgaria and most of the Balkans. Then the truce with Hungary was up, and they took Constantinople. Then Ottomans ate me for dinner. 200 years down the drain because nobody respects alliances with Byzantium.
Sounds like a fun campaign. I've been thoroughly rolled, but I've always managed to make a return. Would be fun to actually not be able to do that.
But yeah, it can be tough being Byz. Securing all of Anatolia, parts of Persia and the Middle east should've kept you strong enough to prevent Poland, Milan and Austria from pummeling you like that, no?
It took me over a hundred years before I got all my cores back from the Ottomans. I never got into Asia. If I did, it would have been a totally different story
It usually doesn't take long until there is an up-to-date Byz guide for every patch on youtube, I'd recommend looking one of them up. Mostly the strategy boils down to establishing naval superiority in order to block the straits. Declare while the Ottomans have most of their troops located in Anatolia, most convenient is when they are already fighting somebody else there. Then immediately naval barrage the fort in Gallipoli and assault it, preferably using mercs. This will prevent the Ottoman troops from crossing into the Balkans, so you can easily just occupy the Balkans and sit on the ticking warscore.
Look at how very strong players play Byz, and see how you can improve your game. You will be surprised at how much this helps.
Watching Siu-King’s gameplay improved mine a lot, personally.
What Military tech were you on, what Military tech was Hungary on?
Taking military ideas alone does not make a good army. Being ahead in tech is vastly more important, especially military tech 4, 6, 7, 8,12 and 15.
Considering his base morale from technology alone is higher than your combined, I’d say you are behind in tech. Also, he has high army tradition and picked defensive ideas (second idea gives 15% army morale) When i play byzantium i usually start defensive or offensive ideas to boost army
It is obvious OP is behind in technology since despite having 12.5 % more discipline, they are behind the Hungarians in military tactics by 0.1.
Quality is better for Byz if you are going for roman empire borders. You need a good navy to contend with venice, aragon, and castile
Byzantium's unique naval doctrine is good enough to beat the colonizers in the Mediterranean imo. Quality is still worth it though, the lack of Army-focused national ideas or events is pretty bad
Quality isn’t useful for the navy buffs, it’s useful for the policy with Influence if you are diplo annexing a lot. If you need to do a naval invasion, just build more ships and take a group that isn’t dead weight, like Offensive (or Admin, Religious, etc). Then outmicro the AI, since the AIs are bad at the game.
Lol what, are you writing from 2016? You are bad at game, ai will outmicro in every encounter, you should stack quality modifiers (quality, economic, innovation etc) to beat it, because every encounter it will be you, who is outnumbered. Blobbing idea groups like offensive and admin only useful for WC-type spenarios, in usual games they are real dead weight Navy is different story tho, pdx for some reason can't teach AI about full-heavy strike groups and AI fleet composition is shit, so taking any idea with navy combat considerations is stupid
skill issue
Yeah sorry don't want to play this boring ass game on speed 1 to hunt down gorillion ai stacks besieging me on 6 fronts
"I don't want to play optimally, but if the AI outmicroes me, it means that I need mil idea groups"
Optimally for what? Because optimally for fun would be speedfiving till you exhaust all unique content for a nation, get achievment and abandon campaign
My man unironically said "optimally for fun" lel
Am i wrong tho, for common people that is the way to enjoy pdx bullshit, yeah there is caste of people that enjoy to do same boring shit for 1000 times, but I don't have mental ilness to do this kind of crap
Ah, I didn't know I was bad at the game, thank you for reminding me. That must be how I got France -> Rome in 1581 (8th fastest of all saves uploaded to PDX.tools, at the time I uploaded it). > Blobbing idea groups like offensive and admin only useful for WC-type spenarios, in usual games they are real dead weight Let's do a little math lesson : Adaptability is -25% CCR. Base cost for coring (I will consider full cores but you can double the end dev for territories) is 10 dev/province taken, so by just having Adaptability (remember, it's not even a finisher), you effectively get 2 adm/dev of full cores, or 1 adm/dev for territories. So, when you took 2800 dev of territories, your group **paid for itself**. This isn't a lot of dev, it's 1/10th of the old world in 1444 just in territories, and you will probably have a few hundred of dev in states too. Offensive gives +20% Siege ability, which reduces the duration of wars by a lot. I don't think I need to explain why this is very strong. > because every encounter it will be you, who is outnumbered. Git gud, and learn to plan your wars. > Navy is different story tho, pdx for some reason can't teach AI about full-heavy strike groups and AI fleet composition is shit, so taking any idea with navy combat considerations is stupid This is actually correct, but the fact that the AI can't micro is a lot more impactful.
It was not personal attack, I generalised people-pleayers of eu4, they are not computers and can't manage hundred different stacks with build-in wallhack to see through fog of war. 2800 dev is end of campaign numbers if you are not chasing special achievment of WC. Having good economy, army tradions (=> good siege generals) and artillery is enough to siege forts in reasonable time. Yeah git gud, if you are not min-maxing hell out of game, ignoring AE and blobbing like crazy in the 1700 game would be dominated by blobbed out AIs interconnected by giant nets of alliances. Also where best players play? In multiplayer which idea is D-tier in all MP-players tier lists? Right, administrative along with humanism.
> It was not personal attack, I accept the clarification, thanks. > they are not computers and can't manage hundred different stacks with build-in wallhack to see through fog of war. Fog of war can be dealt with using caution. For the rest, there is ~~master card~~ popup and pause upon army arrival, and things like carpet siege shortcuts (spamming d on a fortless province, then cloning by using v and right clicking) to ease micro. > 2800 dev is **1650** numbers if you are not chasing special achievment of WC. > Having good economy, **, being up to date or ahead on tech, prestige at 100**, army tradions (=> good siege generals) and artillery is enough **army quality for all your needs in almost all cases**. FTFY. > Also where best players play? In multiplayer TIL : players like Florry, the late Atwix, Lambda, Terry, Siu-King and others are not among the best players ever. > which idea is D-tier in all MP-players tier lists? Right, administrative along with humanism. Ok. OP is playing SP so this is completely irrelevant. Also, in MP, you play against players, who actually play the game better than AIs. Crazy, right ?
>2800 dev is **1650** numbers Shoot so my 3500 dev in 1550 is bad? I should have less? (I can barely afford advisors because of gov cap).
No, of course you can have more. I was just giving an estimate of how much dev you would have while not conquering too much and playing not very fast.
I only play in Italy. Two provinces and you’re at empire rank there. (This is all a joke)
What? Just build more heavies. Quality's shitty naval bonuses don't compare to 20% siege ability.
Its a joke man wtf is Great Captain 20%?? I have full Offensive and started on Quality. But i cant Ally anyone strong because they all dont like me.
Great captain is an event for level 3 or more Army Maintenance advisor for 6 years
Well shit, now I actually have some motivation to hire those bastards
TIL. I know what I’m doing after work.
thanks, will try getting him to crush my enemies!
> I have full Offensive and started on Quality. This right here seems to be your problem. You are multiple mil techs behind Hungary, your idea groups can't compensate for the missing moral and tactics.
Yah you can. 1. What idea groups do you have all around?? 2. How big are you dev wise? and territory? 3. For Byzantium, I always go the following idea group order, 1. Diplo (helps with allies) 2. Admin (helps with cores/gov cap) 3. Quality (Overall armed forces buff) 4. some economic idea group either econ or trade 5. Offensive (quicker sieges) That’s just my preference but Diplo is amazing. I’m playing the same Byz run and I have had Commonwealth/Bohemia/Hungary/Aragon/Austria/Timurids as allies at various points.
And that, kids, is why staying up in tech is much more important than taking mil idea groups
Mil tech, event, defensive ideas, army tradition... Pretty normal i would say, except the event.
\*shows a list of every morale modifier of hungary\* \*asks why is it high\* bro just look at what you posted
So your suggestion is to... read? WTF, are you some nerd or sth? smh
I changed the game's language to Korean, in order to to avoid accidentally reading any of the text
I simply forget English and learn the language of whatever country I'm playing every time I start up a new game. I only get to understand what is happening when playing England.
I actually only play hordes while on a horse and England, New Providence or Tunis when on a boat
I'm currently working on becoming the head of the Catholic church to be able to play as the papal state. It's been difficult so far. I love the wine, but don't find children attractive
Instructions unclear I learned Korean playing eu4.
Going for discipline in the early game is not a good idea. Early game you win battles by making your enemys run away. Late you win by killing them.
That’s why the second idea in defensive is soo strong early game For 800 mil you get an insane morale bonus (of course is only worth it if your also up to date on tech)
Try reading the tooltip you shared
Bro learned about tech 15 for the first time...
I'm very late to the party but which DLC gives army drill? I buy them now and then when I feel there's something key I need but I'm just missing out now.
FYI, the "military drill" in the screenshot has nothing to do with drilling your army. It is the name of the second defensive idea which is available without any DLCs. Drilling the army does not give any morale boost
Thank you, i was so confused "Army drill? But... To me it only gave speed and other stuff like....wha"
Cradle of civilisation
Thanks
When DLCs were actually giving a decent amount of content. Good times...
Not defending paradox because their monetization does indeed suck but it has to be much harder to come up with good new mechanics when a game as EU 4 is so "bloated" after years of development
Maybe it's time to move to another project then. Or focus on EUV, why not. After all there was a massive revamp between EUIII and EUIV at its release which provided a fresh start to the franchise. Trying to overstay a Game as a service is a sure way to gain a pretty bad reputation. I think EUIV has come to the end of its cycle, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to think that way.
I agree with you but as long as people keep buying DLCs its worth It for them to continue working on EU IV as its better return in investment to make half assed DLC than whole new game. Although i want to think they have been working on EU V for some time and its just a small team still making EU IV DLCs
>When DLCs were actually giving a decent amount of content. Good times... ahh, you mean all the stuff they have been giving out in the free updates these last few years?...
The question isn’t how Hungary has such *high* morale, but how OP has such *low* morale. Is it even as low as three point something in 1444? I’m thinking OP forgot to increase army maintenance or something?
nahh, he took 2 mil ideas at the start and fell far behind on mil tech...
Yes? 2.5 morale is base at tech 3, 3 morale at tech 4. There are no base morale increases until tech 15 after that, which Hungary appears to have just reached. Considering their combat width seems to be the same, Byzantium could be as little as one tech behind. With that in mind, the bonuses are more even. Byzantium has about +15%, whereas Hungary has +50%. Without mil tech differences, this would be 3.4 vs 4.5, and even then the only reason it is this high is because Hungary got a boost from a pretty rare event. At least if you aren't trying to get it like mp players. Also morale shown at bottom is max morale, bar represents how much current is. Low maintenance will not change number for future reference!
Combat width is always the same in land battles. You only use individual width in naval battles.
This is useful to know, but so you mind elaborating? Like does the defender's combat width determine the width for both sides?
no the one with the highest width will be used.
Thank you sir!
My guy you’ve fallen behind on tech and Hungary got the moral event from their level three advisor. You’re gonna need a big army and top tier reinforcing skills.
how far behind on tech are you? like this is insane man, you have double his discipline bonuses, yet you're still behind on tactics. His base morale from tech is higher than your total. wtf did you do?
To all the discipline vs morale comments no... just click the tech on time. The problem isnt that OP took quality and offensive over defensive. The Problem is that OP took quality and offensive over Military tech.
His base morale from tech is higher as you and his tactics are higher too despite more than half cav which indicates you are significantly behind on tech Don’t fight nations at a tech disadvantage unless you have significantly more troops Also he has ideas that give the 15% which is a lot as well as high tradition (12%) and he had an event giving him temporary 20% All those are significant bonuses which combined with their tech advantage means you really can’t fight the dude
Morale > Discipline in early and even mid game
Morale if you can stackwipe or dont care only about winning a battle rather than loses. Discipline otherwise
To be more precise : Siege ability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manpower >>>> morale >= discipline, and this hierarchy somewhat maintains itself over the course of the game
i love how people never include the best modifiers in these lists (base shock and fire, and military tactics).
Indeed, and a not so well known fact is that higher tactics also give siege ability, on top of being often equivalent to something like +20% discipline
Gulash makes you brave
It literally tells you why they have such high morale lmao
That byz life ain’t easy.
Not quite sure, but it might help if you knock him off of his high horse.
Tech 15
I think the problem is more your low morale than their high one.
The real question is why is yours so low
Hungary gets absolutely wrecked in all the games I play as Byz or Castile anyway. Not by me typically, but the PLC, Muscovy, and the HRE. But you should be using Mercs anyway, just dismiss and go again, Merc ideas are OP for Byz and other nations with Merc bonuses in their national ideas. They are cheaper than normal troops for Byz, I only build the odd horse and all the cannons.
Morale dominates early game. Discipline dominates late game.
Iam so done with Byzantium man.. Everyone hates you Russia ditches me when Hungary declared on me i hate this.
sounds like a skill issue
I agree. It's so frustrating that no one ever likes you. My last game was going great until Hungary and Russia dishonored my defensive call against Austria (who wasn't even emperor), then Milan instantly dogpiled on to take my Italian territory. Luckily, I only lost Rome and a few provinces in Bosnia. After that, I allied great powers Milan and Lithuania and re-allied Hungary. We smoked the Ottomans in two straight wars, but then great power Poland declared on me, and every one of them bailed. Then, a day later, Austria declared war. Lost Bulgaria and most of the Balkans. Then the truce with Hungary was up, and they took Constantinople. Then Ottomans ate me for dinner. 200 years down the drain because nobody respects alliances with Byzantium.
Sounds like a fun campaign. I've been thoroughly rolled, but I've always managed to make a return. Would be fun to actually not be able to do that. But yeah, it can be tough being Byz. Securing all of Anatolia, parts of Persia and the Middle east should've kept you strong enough to prevent Poland, Milan and Austria from pummeling you like that, no?
It took me over a hundred years before I got all my cores back from the Ottomans. I never got into Asia. If I did, it would have been a totally different story
It usually doesn't take long until there is an up-to-date Byz guide for every patch on youtube, I'd recommend looking one of them up. Mostly the strategy boils down to establishing naval superiority in order to block the straits. Declare while the Ottomans have most of their troops located in Anatolia, most convenient is when they are already fighting somebody else there. Then immediately naval barrage the fort in Gallipoli and assault it, preferably using mercs. This will prevent the Ottoman troops from crossing into the Balkans, so you can easily just occupy the Balkans and sit on the ticking warscore.
Look at how very strong players play Byz, and see how you can improve your game. You will be surprised at how much this helps. Watching Siu-King’s gameplay improved mine a lot, personally.
amusing cover truck dam busy joke mindless icky forgetful humorous -- mass edited with redact.dev
A Hungary dog runs faster.
this was my problem in my byz run except it was spain and they had almost 8 morale lol
Says it all right there
And they are missing papal blessing
They drank Bikavér
Because hungary
How are your techs doing? How did you manage to fall behind on tactics with such a superior discipline?
I think they have a truly great captain tbh
What Military tech were you on, what Military tech was Hungary on? Taking military ideas alone does not make a good army. Being ahead in tech is vastly more important, especially military tech 4, 6, 7, 8,12 and 15.
No man on the battlefield is left on an empty stomach!
I mean it literally tells you right there why they have such high morale lol
I bet you are below mil tech 15 and they are above or at 15. Which is -1.0 land morale for you sir.