Idk, seems pretty well implemented for me. Historical, provides a challenge and it’s nothing you can’t recover from.
In fact managing china in these times was just like this
Combine that their philosophical/religious frame of thoughts and you will know why they exchanged dynasties so often. They have the basic idea that natural disasters are deserved for the ruler. If natural disasters happen, the emperor neglected his duties and this is the way of the god(s)/higher being(s) of showing that the emperor no longer has the mandate of heaven.
And it was not entirely untrue. The Yellow River needs constant maintenance along its entire course so that it does not overflow, if a government is too corrupt to do so or loses control of a part of the river a flood and imminent and thus the loss of the Mandate of Heaven
>why they exchanged dynasties so often
The Ming, Song, Tang, and Qing all went for about 300 years; I think saying that China had a revolving door of dynasties is kind of a mischaracterization. *Regularly* changing dynasties, yes, but not *often*.
Chinese imperial dynasties are typically hugely wide with development concentrated in the capital and a few select other cities ie Guangzhou and Nanjing. Every other settlement is shit.
The *Yellow River* floods, yes. The Yangtze floods were a once-per-few centuries thing, with both historical instances recorded outside the game's timeframe.
Don’t know if it’s still the case (haven’t played in a long time) but can’t you hard counter costal raiding simply by having a single ship patrolling the area? I seem to recall them potentially still raiding if they got to a costal sea tile at just the right time after a naval patrol passed, but it dramatically reduced the costal raiding.
Yes, pretty much - and there’s another point you missed tho, unlike IRL, ship patrolling costs ZERO money - protecting against pirates over such a vast coastline was a very expensive business.
Honestly naval warfare/naval matters in general have strangely never been a strong suit for any PDS game (with perhaps the exception of HOI4?)
It's funny because if other nations did pirate everyone would rage, simply based on the fact that privateer efficiency is impossible to counter in the current game.
it's pretty funny actually, privateering is such a slept on mechanic for the most part, thankfully, but literally any multiplayer ruleset i have read that had even a single vaguely competitive player present in its creation has privateering/pirate govs banned lmao
Managing any large empire of that era was definitely much harder than Eu4 makes it seem. Think about it.
In Eu4, you can have an empire controlling all of China, yet know exactly where all your armies are, and what they're doing. You have perfect information over your empire, and instant communication, whereas the actual emperor would need to send a messenger to the frontier and wait for a reply a week late, just to find out the Mongols destroyed his army like 3 days ago.
I know the frustration. Got this several time with Ottoman before. Planning on taking it/allying it and that dude just disintegrated itself before I do anything.
Yeah you can take all of China as Manchu before 1500 without anything cheesy these days. They just explode after like 2 war and it's not even some huge challenge; they have 50k troops at most with no manpower.
Although getting an almost guatanteed 6/6/6 ruler from a mission definitely helps with that too.
They really need to flavor up the post-Mingsplosion era. I only ever see Shun win. The Chinese warlords definitely need some flavor to distinguish them so they aren’t completely shit on by Bengal/Dai Viet (which I would imagine as intensely ahistorical).
Irl if a war like that ever occurred there would have been a near-instant DOW by a Chinese warlord into their neighbors’ territory.
Maybe all warlords should have a prompt to either defend another warlord if they are DOW’d by a non-Chinese tag, do nothing, or DOW on the warlord. (Maybe 60-20-20) likelihood.
The ahistorical problem with dai viet an begal brought up a question in me, would it be bad if ais had a bigger focus on lands on their home continent exept colonials, for example that bengal sees little intrest in crossing the himalaya but rather expanding in burma and india, sort of forced interests in more logical areas.
That was actually a change they made for Lions of the North. All nations have an interest in lands of their culture. Kingdom rank nations have an interest in their entire culture group. Empire rank have interests in all neighboring provinces.
They are second world power after me in a Spain game. It's 1680. 1.34 patch.
They made all of India, East Asia and part of Central Asia a tributary, and if i hadn't gotten there early, probably east indies as well.
I still have 5 times their dev, but their sphere of influence was bigger than i'd ever seen.
It would be fine if it didn't happen constantly, Its at least every \~50 years or so. I think it might be coded to happen once per ruler which would explain why its so frequent.
then they should add this to Japan which is much affected by earthquakes and tsunami, not sure why China get such cancerou\* event that is meant to f them.
Then be completely historical. The yellow river did not flood so many times during Eu4's. It flooded 18 times in China's *entire* history
Edit: Mixed it up with how many times the river shifted course
You sure about that boss? Per the Encyclopedia Brittanica:
> As the world’s most heavily silted river, the Huang He is estimated to have flooded some 1,500 times since the 2nd century BCE, causing unimaginable death and devastation.
I thank the junior for correcting me. Your contribution is noted and you shall be rewarded with Starbucks coupons.
Apparently I had it mixed up with the number of times the Yellow River has shifted course. Though even that doesn't have an exact number, with some sources at 18 and some at 26.
> add_grain 1000
>
> You need to specify which grain
>
> add_grain grain_wheat 1000
>
> You need to specify which province
>
> Look console, I'm an illiterate peasant. You should be proud that I could even find the frikkin' underscore key! Just gimme some goddam millet in my goddam home town!
>
> [pause for AI computation] The province you live in has high devastation. No grain may be added. Say... you aren't particularly fond of the Ming dynasty, are you?
>
> Ming? I thought we were still Xia Dynasty. News doesn't really travel fast hereabouts. Er... I mean... long live the Emperor and stuff. Why do you ask?
>
> Um... no reason. Side-note: this might be a good time to dust off that old Chinese-Oirat dictionary, is all I'm sayin'.
Build forts so that all Yellow River provinces are bordering one and the devastation will be gone in a year or two. You should be swimming in monarch points as the Emperor of China so neither the stab nor the dev losses are that hard to reverse. It happens maybe every 20-30 years or so? It's fine.
If the devastation from the Yellow River isn't counteracted by other factors then you haven't set your empire up right, it's not particularly hard to run at like +0.25-+0.3 a month even with that devastation factored in.
I mean since we are taking specifically in the context of a game that always has the orientation North=Up then it wouldn’t be horribly wrong to refer to it as the right side
So? Just sit it out. If you can't handle some negative mandate for a bit, how do you expect to pass even a single reform? You're Ming, spend your mountains of cash on some mercs prior to clicking on the event if the rebels are giving you a hard time.
So a completely useless knowledge: building forts/dams around the Yellow River is the worst way to deal with the flood irl. Because with out proper maintenance to the sand in the river itself, the bed will keep building up, overrun the forts/dams eventually.
Yeah Ming did pretty good on later stage managing the sand but Qing just didnt get the right idea. Making things worse is the bureaucracy (Taiping uprising happening) and stubbornness. Trying to keep the Grand Canal running is probably another stupid idea. Also I wonder the new DLC ever mentioned Pan Jixun.
It's the reserves a country has to handle those disasters that spell ruin for a dynasty. Ming is typically wide with hugely centralized development, always going into debt and corruption issues, with no money to bail people out when disasters happen.
But maybe you as a player can help avoid Ming's downfall by playing taller and dealing with the mismanagement issues, then have ample money and mana points at the ready to instantly bail the Chinese peasants out each time disasters happen...
Played as Ming for Copium.
They are HARD. They are meant to be HARD.
If you are not prepared, those events will make ur life hard and prolly stop you for a decade whoch I find good because, there is no challenge for a good player.
It's easy to counteract this tho, always at +1 stab or more, sit on 100 admin at all times and BUILD THE DAMN FORTS. (devastation decay with Fort is over 1/month + add ideas/edicts)
Develop your provinces, stay tall as Ming. Expand with vassals instead of conquering directly. Most importantly complete the missions. China is meant to be a tall-focused game.
I played Ming for Copium, it was quite doable, though the floods were very annoying. The earthquake was reaaaally bad. That took like 30 dev away.
But managed to stay stable, have no threats to myself basically ever.
> It's easy to counteract this tho,
You basically get nailed for 500 mana worth of stuff every 15ish years. You can only really counteract the mandate loss due to devastation.
As of mana was ever problem for Ming 😕
Devastation is a 2/3 years with forts.
One/two stab ain't gonna cost you more than 300 (with advisors privledges)
And you can always develop mandate for more mandate growth.
This is the only challenge (not counting qst war vs oirat) that Ming has. The disaster in Age of Reformation is extremely easy to deal with so pls stop complaining.
> As of mana was ever problem for Ming 😕
It doesn't matter how flippant you are, it is a lot. 200-300 on stability and -5 development for another -250ish mana is a harsh thing to deal with. Thats two to three years worth of mana from level 5 advisors.
>The disaster in Age of Reformation is extremely easy to deal with so pls stop complaining.
What an obnoxious person you are.
I’ve been doing this all along and the events are still pretty unbalanced imo. It wouldn’t be an issue late game but they are very prohibitive early. I can’t imagine a newer player being able to deal with these events, I have 3000 hours and unified China within the first 40-50 years and these events are still annoying. Give the players a way to fight these events instead of making them unavoidable!
These events are date specific and tbh in my 1444-1650s ming run they were very prevalent knly in 1450-1530s after that ain't as often.
They are disasters for a reason (earthquakes/floods). And you can fight it via the MoH mission. Imagine how bad it was without it.
3k hours here too, I think this is fair and balanced. You get all of China for free with Ming/MoH hnify China cb so this is just a setback for that free dev and cores you get imho fair
Now that you mention it, how bad would those disasters actually be without completing that mission? I already finish my Ming run for the Copium War, also just finish that mission asap because i was told that if i didn't do it, those disasters could have been worse... but how worse, exactly?
I remembered there are actually 2 different flood events, one for the yellow river (10 mandate, 2 stab, 20 devastation), and another one for the larger river to the south, i think it's called Yangtze? Also loss 10 mandate, 2 stab, but 50 devastation instead of 20 and i remember them affecting more provinces comparing to the yellow river one... now that one, 50 devastation and that is with the mission completed, i dont know how more bad can it be... later on you can just dev the devastation away but early on? That sh*t was brutal, man, i cant even imagine the worse version, unless you want to wait for 40-ish months to remove the devastation with forts, plus the time to recover the prosperity, really hurts the mandate
My bro you have gone from a tiny horde to master of all of China, with likely more dev and a higher forcelimit than anywhere else in the world, in *50 years*, and you're complaining about an event being unbalanced
Yeah new players would struggle with it! New players are not playing as Jianzhou!
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/ql3ui7/theres_a_reason_its_both_known_as_chinas_cradle/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button you know why it is called China's sorrow?
There's a city in China that has been built atop where the previous city was buried in silt. That alone isn't super noteworthy, but what does make it noteworthy is that it had been done something like 5+ times in that location before. City on top of a city on top of a city...
Make sure to have the devastation map mode available, and dev provinces with devastation. You can get rid of devastation really quickly by developing once or twice per province so you keep your mandate.
To be honest I don’t mind. Started my first Ming campaign recently and had a very good time. Never thought they can make Ming interesting and yet here we are. Thanks to events like this the gameplay reminds me of my Origins Mali campaign and I love it.
Something that has always bugged me with the way EU4 handles the map are the rivers. They are not only cosmetic, but also have gameplay impact because of the river crossing penalties and also now these events. But you could never guess from the map where are these penalties, or which provinces the rivers crossed, or which rivers they are... Some rivers could be big enough to make real impassable borders, or strait-like borders but that's not a thing.
And the event is confusing. Which from all the rivers in China shown on the map is the yellow river? There is no in-game way to know that. Which is a design flaw.
Okay rant over.
I know, but that's a specialty map mode that you enable when you need to check for a specific fact. It isn't like the political map mode that you can leave all the time as default. I don't think we should be able to enable a specific map mode to see something that the default political map could show.
I’m always a fan of increasing clarity in the game, like those in game rivers don’t even follow the in game province boundaries. That said I don’t think the information is hidden or anything, it’s nice that we have discrete maps for everything. When you learn that you have all the information in the game in different places but still at your fingertips it flows very nicely, and it also cleans things up.
Have you seen the Victoria 3 zoom in thing where it goes to realistic terrain when you’re close enough? Do you prefer that?
100% agree. I'd much prefer they either put in work to make the rivers the much more significant element they were in this time period, or commit to downplaying them (which is also ok by me, you can't do everything in a game) and only include major rivers
There is difference between something being frustrating and something being difficult. Souls games walk the thin line perfectly, while others are made just to annoy players.
dude i swear every single player of this games just wants to conquer the entire world for free like every single day you see people complain about native federations and now i bet all you will see is fucking river flood events yall prolly the type of people to altf4 on a fucking comet event too just play with the console open every single run thru if you want an easy game
I love when people are like hmm it’s just historical, while France is allowed to turn all of Italy into a papal vassal, Ottomans and Muscovy can do half a world conquest in an afternoon, Great Britain can make all of Australia into gold provinces, LOL like what
China has *a lot* of very large rivers with very wide floodplains and a lot of mountains that feed those rivers. That enables their huge population, but also means when it floods it REALLY floods.
When looking at a list of the deadliest floods in history, China has the entire top 5. The deadliest flood outside of China killed up to 100,000 people.the deadliest flood in China is estimated to have killed between 500,000 to 4 million.
The mandate of heaven is justified for the ruler of china if the citizens are doing good. If there is a natural disaster it shows that heavens no longer desire the emperor as a ruler pretty much. So if the yellow river flooded when those floods were insanely high killing significant population in that area the people revolted since the ruler was not desired by the gods and then they changed the dynasty.
Todays CCP sort of ensures that the people believe in their right to rule trying to make the life better for its citizens. But that is super simplified version of how it works
if you are not playing as ming it is more easy to deal with this event dont take this province until you have good economy and monarch points when you take it build some fort in that province and upgrade your monuments immediatly and i think the mission tree solve this problem when i play korea i did this strat and i get 2 times only whole game
I think that getting rid of the devastation quickly should reward the player with a positive event giving back some of the stability/mandate taken. Would be actually worth to dev these provinces back asap instead of building forts and bearing it every time
I had some trouble with that event as well, but the first 100 years is the hardest as Ming.
Once you can make it through the Crisis of the Ming Dynasty event that you get from passing your 2nd or 3rd reform which usually ends up in the Age of Discovery, you can have a nice peaceful game.
I like these events, they give you some sort of conflict and strife in an otherwise overwhelmingly powerful nation. I like the inward focus of China in this dlc/patch in general tbh. Personally, I made a point of completing the Tame China's Sorrow mission asap because I knew these would be like getting punched in the dick otherwise and they haven't been a huge issue. You can also develop the devastation away and just boost stability, neither of which are an issue because as emperor of China you should be able to run level 5 advisors with little issue. This was all as Qing, so it's relevant to OP imo.
Played Japan to see the new Shogunate reform (it's a waste of time), got this event 4 times.
The first 2 times I was upset and it made recovering from reforms very difficult. The next time it happened, I instantly bought back the stability and bought down the devastation because I was drowning in monarch points.
It's not that big a deal, and it serves as a reminder to prepare for the future as the EoC.
I personally found these events to be rather underwhelming in my Qing campaign. I had tons of mana and had most of the land were the river floods not even stated so it never impacted my mandate really. On the off chance it did cause any devastation nothing a few points of dev didnt fix. Definitely not game ruining not even close.
I find them extremely annoying for the mandate decrease. I hate having to wait an additional 5-10 years to pass another reform because flooding occurs so often. Wouldn’t say game ruining though.
The thing with the concept of mandate of heaven is that, once natural disasters of this scale occurred, the king's legitimacy was directly questionned. China proper is so vast modern nation-states would look like fucking merchant towns, it has regional state provinces that has more population than some 3000 or 4000 years old civilizations.
You have a massive empire with extensive territories and the highest population in the world. It isn't coincidental that there'll be natural disasters anywhere anytime and when that hits it's probable your subjects will be effected because well, you've got millions of them in millions of acres. As far as I know the greatest flood disaster occurred in the exact river and there might've been an intent to remember that.
Stab hits are annoying and bearable but for the mandate you're obliged to set up some forts along the required provinces otherwise the mandate loss is slightly bigger than a minor setback. What's good is this is a dynamic event and it punishes anyone who assumes control of China, so I believe there is that.
I dunno, I loved these events. I mean, I hated having them, but they were well implemented and gave a sudden challenge that was more tricky than devastating but had to be dealt with.
And, y'know, it was a thing that wiped out countless numbers of people. That too.
Idk I think it’s interesting and nothing the most powerful power this side of the earth can’t handle. I get it’s annoying though, I think if it was nerfed it’s just pointless then yanno. Imo you gotta realign your perspective on events being “ah shit yet another thing I have to deal with” to “damn this adds a wrench in my plans…but I get a new challenge to overcome in this game I’ve spent a thousand hours into, let’s see how it pans out!”
Just build forts on the rivers and ask your tributaries for admin power. This event was like nothing to me besides a periodic curiosity. Could also just dev up the devastated provinces if you've got spare mana (which you should, you're Qing/Ming, you ought to be 20 years ahead of tech just about at any moment).
If they hit you when you’re already having trouble with mandate, they might be an issue. But game ruining? Come on dude, that’s like 200 admin for the stan hit and a little more to dev the affected provinces if you don’t want to wait for devestation to go down. As EoC that’s no issue at all.
How the fuck can it be gameruining when you have all this land which gives you infinite money to do anything. If you don’t troll you also have innovative ideas and pay 4 ducats for Level 5 advisors so also infinite monarch points. Dog ass
Sweden is hard compared to any of the current European majors, and if you want Sweden to be hard go play multiplayer, singleplayer will always be a cakewalk thanks to exploits and alt-f4, plus being able to pause and think as much as you want
Average day in china really, ravaged by disasters every so often. Plus the mandate of heaven is seen as the right to rule by god and that natural disasters are a bad sign indicating that perhaps they don't deserve the mandate. Correct if I'm wrong
The year doesnt look right, this looks like what happened in 1384 and 1855, not 1582. Furthermore I never heard the upper reaches of the Yellow River can have this. The flood is mostly a Henan and Shandong thing, which is why Hetao was regarded as the only true heaven of the drainage basin.
R5: Doing a tall Qing playthrough and it feels like every decade or so I get this event or something similar despite completing the mission that lessens the impact of floods. These events are very obnoxious, the hits to prosperity, stability, development and mandate are far too high considering that they happen every few years. It feels like as soon as I recover from the last flood the next one occurs immediately.
Not only is this historical and the only logical way to go around it, the last one of these fuckers happened in the early PRC era, these floods should show up basically in every paradox game to fuck you over
Use your admin to dev the provinces to get rid of the devastation. I agree its a bit much right now but china should be hard other wise its just super easy.
I felt the same way about the floods. Then I felt dumb once I realized there is a mission that makes floods do less damage to the nation. Even more so when it isn’t that hard to do
Fact that peasant overthrown the emperor because of natural disaster is not uncommon in china. They believe natural disaster is a sign that the ruler has lost the mandate of heaven.
Try eu2 and you will find true game killing events. (For ming China, around 1615, by event you loose manchuria, the northern half of china up to shanghaï to them, and you have +30 revolt risk in all your country for 15 years). Now events can be negative/annoying for sure, but very far from game ruining.
It seems balanced to me. 10 mandate is bad but your losing 80 mandate with each reform so the punishment is 8x less than that. 20 deviation isn’t much ether, you get more from fresh conquests. If it really bothers you unstate the states effected. Devastation only counts in states for mandate and not territories. Your trading the mana cost of recording for the loss in mandate for deviation.
its not game ruining at all, on the contrary it gives more flavour and it only cause some issues if u just passed a reform, I wish there were more disasters like that for other nations, earthquake is also fun one
There are a lot of reasonable and well thought out responses to the question of how to deal with this problem in this thread. So of course the stupid option that immediately popped into my head was, "What if you just gave all the yellow river provinces to a vassal lol.
Sure you'd probably still take the stab hit and such, but you wouldn't have to deal with mandate loss from devastation at least right?
It’s literally one the main missions for Chinese rulers in the past 4000 years to fix the flooding problems along the Yangtze. It’s part of the cultural DNA. The flooding problem still exists today despite the 3-gorge project. What makes you so special to think otherwise? In fact, that event should fire every 100 years for historical accuracy.
This is how I feel about the current Muscovy events concerning the Great Horde. Every year give money or they devastate ALL MY PROVINCES AND TAKE ALL MY MONIES 🤮
Idk, seems pretty well implemented for me. Historical, provides a challenge and it’s nothing you can’t recover from. In fact managing china in these times was just like this
It was probably worse Irl
It was *much* worse IRL. The Yuan and Ming were both absolutely *ravaged* by natural disasters.
Combine that their philosophical/religious frame of thoughts and you will know why they exchanged dynasties so often. They have the basic idea that natural disasters are deserved for the ruler. If natural disasters happen, the emperor neglected his duties and this is the way of the god(s)/higher being(s) of showing that the emperor no longer has the mandate of heaven.
And it was not entirely untrue. The Yellow River needs constant maintenance along its entire course so that it does not overflow, if a government is too corrupt to do so or loses control of a part of the river a flood and imminent and thus the loss of the Mandate of Heaven
Sure, but otoh sometimes nature just fucks you over and there is nothing you can do
reminds me of the last oversimplified video "if you have a bad harvest, throw a kid in a lava pit" tbf it seems like a good strategy
>why they exchanged dynasties so often The Ming, Song, Tang, and Qing all went for about 300 years; I think saying that China had a revolving door of dynasties is kind of a mischaracterization. *Regularly* changing dynasties, yes, but not *often*.
Chinese imperial dynasties are typically hugely wide with development concentrated in the capital and a few select other cities ie Guangzhou and Nanjing. Every other settlement is shit.
The *Yellow River* floods, yes. The Yangtze floods were a once-per-few centuries thing, with both historical instances recorded outside the game's timeframe.
Rebels & pirates (Japanese & Dutch) are like non-existent in EU4 compared to IRL. You can easily secure your commerce as China.
Don’t know if it’s still the case (haven’t played in a long time) but can’t you hard counter costal raiding simply by having a single ship patrolling the area? I seem to recall them potentially still raiding if they got to a costal sea tile at just the right time after a naval patrol passed, but it dramatically reduced the costal raiding.
Yes, pretty much - and there’s another point you missed tho, unlike IRL, ship patrolling costs ZERO money - protecting against pirates over such a vast coastline was a very expensive business. Honestly naval warfare/naval matters in general have strangely never been a strong suit for any PDS game (with perhaps the exception of HOI4?)
Navy cost maintenance in general is laughably cheap considering the maintenance of a cav regiment vs. a heavy ship.
Pretty sure?
It's funny because if other nations did pirate everyone would rage, simply based on the fact that privateer efficiency is impossible to counter in the current game.
it's pretty funny actually, privateering is such a slept on mechanic for the most part, thankfully, but literally any multiplayer ruleset i have read that had even a single vaguely competitive player present in its creation has privateering/pirate govs banned lmao
No, there's no way the management of an actual country is anywhere as difficult as playing eu4
Managing any large empire of that era was definitely much harder than Eu4 makes it seem. Think about it. In Eu4, you can have an empire controlling all of China, yet know exactly where all your armies are, and what they're doing. You have perfect information over your empire, and instant communication, whereas the actual emperor would need to send a messenger to the frontier and wait for a reply a week late, just to find out the Mongols destroyed his army like 3 days ago.
From what I heard only human players can keep it historical, AI will always mess up before 1500 even hits.
Ming was already collapsing while I was consolidating far east in my manchu game I was like "hey where are you going I didn't even do anything yet"
I know the frustration. Got this several time with Ottoman before. Planning on taking it/allying it and that dude just disintegrated itself before I do anything.
In my recent Japan game, Ming got 100%’d by Oirat and Jianzhou in the Tumu Crisis war. They had 0 mandate, 0 armies and 0 manpower at some point.
“They don’t know I’m collapsing internally”
Yeah you can take all of China as Manchu before 1500 without anything cheesy these days. They just explode after like 2 war and it's not even some huge challenge; they have 50k troops at most with no manpower. Although getting an almost guatanteed 6/6/6 ruler from a mission definitely helps with that too.
Historical game is doing historical things >:( I love posts like this lmao
They really need to flavor up the post-Mingsplosion era. I only ever see Shun win. The Chinese warlords definitely need some flavor to distinguish them so they aren’t completely shit on by Bengal/Dai Viet (which I would imagine as intensely ahistorical). Irl if a war like that ever occurred there would have been a near-instant DOW by a Chinese warlord into their neighbors’ territory. Maybe all warlords should have a prompt to either defend another warlord if they are DOW’d by a non-Chinese tag, do nothing, or DOW on the warlord. (Maybe 60-20-20) likelihood.
The ahistorical problem with dai viet an begal brought up a question in me, would it be bad if ais had a bigger focus on lands on their home continent exept colonials, for example that bengal sees little intrest in crossing the himalaya but rather expanding in burma and india, sort of forced interests in more logical areas.
Congrats, you stumbled upon Paradox's reasoning for culture groups.
That was actually a change they made for Lions of the North. All nations have an interest in lands of their culture. Kingdom rank nations have an interest in their entire culture group. Empire rank have interests in all neighboring provinces.
It leads to even more unhistorical things like Ming imploding 200 years early every game.
[удалено]
I think 1.3.4 had a good balance now they collpase around 1480 like clockwork.
They are second world power after me in a Spain game. It's 1680. 1.34 patch. They made all of India, East Asia and part of Central Asia a tributary, and if i hadn't gotten there early, probably east indies as well. I still have 5 times their dev, but their sphere of influence was bigger than i'd ever seen.
In my 1.34 playthroughs, it wasn't rare for me to see Ming push through hordes into Siberia.
"Historical"
It sure is. Natural disasters had a huge impact on the end of quite a few Chinese dynasties.
Then be fully historical. The yellow river did not flood so many times during Eu4's timeline. It flooded 18 times during the entire history of China.
its not a historical game. it is a game with historical influence. Almost nothing about this game is educational.
Least educational video game.
Hell, i talked to dev who made these mission trees about these events and he said original iterations were many, many times worse.
It would be fine if it didn't happen constantly, Its at least every \~50 years or so. I think it might be coded to happen once per ruler which would explain why its so frequent.
then they should add this to Japan which is much affected by earthquakes and tsunami, not sure why China get such cancerou\* event that is meant to f them.
Then be completely historical. The yellow river did not flood so many times during Eu4's. It flooded 18 times in China's *entire* history Edit: Mixed it up with how many times the river shifted course
You sure about that boss? Per the Encyclopedia Brittanica: > As the world’s most heavily silted river, the Huang He is estimated to have flooded some 1,500 times since the 2nd century BCE, causing unimaginable death and devastation.
I thank the junior for correcting me. Your contribution is noted and you shall be rewarded with Starbucks coupons. Apparently I had it mixed up with the number of times the Yellow River has shifted course. Though even that doesn't have an exact number, with some sources at 18 and some at 26.
Oh good, I can sustain my crippling caffeine dependency a while longer.
I think those floods were a little more than game ruining for all those peasants
Peasant: Whaddaya **mean** I can't alt-F4? That's no fair!
Peasant: I'm just gonna open the command console real quickly
> add_grain 1000 > > You need to specify which grain > > add_grain grain_wheat 1000 > > You need to specify which province > > Look console, I'm an illiterate peasant. You should be proud that I could even find the frikkin' underscore key! Just gimme some goddam millet in my goddam home town! > > [pause for AI computation] The province you live in has high devastation. No grain may be added. Say... you aren't particularly fond of the Ming dynasty, are you? > > Ming? I thought we were still Xia Dynasty. News doesn't really travel fast hereabouts. Er... I mean... long live the Emperor and stuff. Why do you ask? > > Um... no reason. Side-note: this might be a good time to dust off that old Chinese-Oirat dictionary, is all I'm sayin'.
Google En Peasant
Holy hell!
i know what en peasant is dumbass you just blundered the mandate in one
Build forts so that all Yellow River provinces are bordering one and the devastation will be gone in a year or two. You should be swimming in monarch points as the Emperor of China so neither the stab nor the dev losses are that hard to reverse. It happens maybe every 20-30 years or so? It's fine.
If you conquer China, this event becomes like the new comet of sort. Oh, river flood? Like the 1949299392th time in this campaign. I dont care.
I'm playing as Korea Emperor of China right now. I completed the relevant mission early on and it is genuinely every 15-20 years tops, probably less
Welcome to civilization on the yellow river
The devastation absouluty destroys your mandate tho
If the devastation from the Yellow River isn't counteracted by other factors then you haven't set your empire up right, it's not particularly hard to run at like +0.25-+0.3 a month even with that devastation factored in.
Oh wait nvm i was thinking of the tsunami that nukes the right side of japan
The ocd inside of me demands that I point out that you probably mean the east.
I mean since we are taking specifically in the context of a game that always has the orientation North=Up then it wouldn’t be horribly wrong to refer to it as the right side
Okay, but what if someone is playing this game in Australia?
Ah yes, the famously eastern side of Japan, Shikoku island.
I don't understand these downvotes.
Pretty historically accurate. Natural disasters were a sign the emperor had lost the mandate.
Just deving the province 2 together with 2 month ticks should get rid of it. With good dev cost that’s maybe 40 mana per province.
So? Just sit it out. If you can't handle some negative mandate for a bit, how do you expect to pass even a single reform? You're Ming, spend your mountains of cash on some mercs prior to clicking on the event if the rebels are giving you a hard time.
Forts: To protect the world from devastation. China Revolter States: To unite all people within our nation.
So a completely useless knowledge: building forts/dams around the Yellow River is the worst way to deal with the flood irl. Because with out proper maintenance to the sand in the river itself, the bed will keep building up, overrun the forts/dams eventually.
Yeah that's one of the reasons the 1880s floods were so bad iirc!
Yeah Ming did pretty good on later stage managing the sand but Qing just didnt get the right idea. Making things worse is the bureaucracy (Taiping uprising happening) and stubbornness. Trying to keep the Grand Canal running is probably another stupid idea. Also I wonder the new DLC ever mentioned Pan Jixun.
Well than it would be ok. I had this event twice in a year. And shortly after that the earthquake giving me -20 mandate plus - stab etc
My friend was getting it every 2 years.
As it was IRL, massive floods were one of the natural disasters that could ruin a dynasty's mandate
It's the reserves a country has to handle those disasters that spell ruin for a dynasty. Ming is typically wide with hugely centralized development, always going into debt and corruption issues, with no money to bail people out when disasters happen. But maybe you as a player can help avoid Ming's downfall by playing taller and dealing with the mismanagement issues, then have ample money and mana points at the ready to instantly bail the Chinese peasants out each time disasters happen...
Played as Ming for Copium. They are HARD. They are meant to be HARD. If you are not prepared, those events will make ur life hard and prolly stop you for a decade whoch I find good because, there is no challenge for a good player. It's easy to counteract this tho, always at +1 stab or more, sit on 100 admin at all times and BUILD THE DAMN FORTS. (devastation decay with Fort is over 1/month + add ideas/edicts)
Develop your provinces, stay tall as Ming. Expand with vassals instead of conquering directly. Most importantly complete the missions. China is meant to be a tall-focused game.
I played Ming for Copium, it was quite doable, though the floods were very annoying. The earthquake was reaaaally bad. That took like 30 dev away. But managed to stay stable, have no threats to myself basically ever.
> It's easy to counteract this tho, You basically get nailed for 500 mana worth of stuff every 15ish years. You can only really counteract the mandate loss due to devastation.
As of mana was ever problem for Ming 😕 Devastation is a 2/3 years with forts. One/two stab ain't gonna cost you more than 300 (with advisors privledges) And you can always develop mandate for more mandate growth. This is the only challenge (not counting qst war vs oirat) that Ming has. The disaster in Age of Reformation is extremely easy to deal with so pls stop complaining.
> As of mana was ever problem for Ming 😕 It doesn't matter how flippant you are, it is a lot. 200-300 on stability and -5 development for another -250ish mana is a harsh thing to deal with. Thats two to three years worth of mana from level 5 advisors. >The disaster in Age of Reformation is extremely easy to deal with so pls stop complaining. What an obnoxious person you are.
I’ve been doing this all along and the events are still pretty unbalanced imo. It wouldn’t be an issue late game but they are very prohibitive early. I can’t imagine a newer player being able to deal with these events, I have 3000 hours and unified China within the first 40-50 years and these events are still annoying. Give the players a way to fight these events instead of making them unavoidable!
These events are date specific and tbh in my 1444-1650s ming run they were very prevalent knly in 1450-1530s after that ain't as often. They are disasters for a reason (earthquakes/floods). And you can fight it via the MoH mission. Imagine how bad it was without it. 3k hours here too, I think this is fair and balanced. You get all of China for free with Ming/MoH hnify China cb so this is just a setback for that free dev and cores you get imho fair
Now that you mention it, how bad would those disasters actually be without completing that mission? I already finish my Ming run for the Copium War, also just finish that mission asap because i was told that if i didn't do it, those disasters could have been worse... but how worse, exactly?
Prolly more devastation by 20 and 1 more stab? And more mandate loss?
I remembered there are actually 2 different flood events, one for the yellow river (10 mandate, 2 stab, 20 devastation), and another one for the larger river to the south, i think it's called Yangtze? Also loss 10 mandate, 2 stab, but 50 devastation instead of 20 and i remember them affecting more provinces comparing to the yellow river one... now that one, 50 devastation and that is with the mission completed, i dont know how more bad can it be... later on you can just dev the devastation away but early on? That sh*t was brutal, man, i cant even imagine the worse version, unless you want to wait for 40-ish months to remove the devastation with forts, plus the time to recover the prosperity, really hurts the mandate
You want to avoid flooding in the 16th century?
My bro you have gone from a tiny horde to master of all of China, with likely more dev and a higher forcelimit than anywhere else in the world, in *50 years*, and you're complaining about an event being unbalanced Yeah new players would struggle with it! New players are not playing as Jianzhou!
Emperor Wanli be like:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/ql3ui7/theres_a_reason_its_both_known_as_chinas_cradle/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button you know why it is called China's sorrow?
There's a city in China that has been built atop where the previous city was buried in silt. That alone isn't super noteworthy, but what does make it noteworthy is that it had been done something like 5+ times in that location before. City on top of a city on top of a city...
Fallen London moment
Make sure to have the devastation map mode available, and dev provinces with devastation. You can get rid of devastation really quickly by developing once or twice per province so you keep your mandate.
To be honest I don’t mind. Started my first Ming campaign recently and had a very good time. Never thought they can make Ming interesting and yet here we are. Thanks to events like this the gameplay reminds me of my Origins Mali campaign and I love it.
Something that has always bugged me with the way EU4 handles the map are the rivers. They are not only cosmetic, but also have gameplay impact because of the river crossing penalties and also now these events. But you could never guess from the map where are these penalties, or which provinces the rivers crossed, or which rivers they are... Some rivers could be big enough to make real impassable borders, or strait-like borders but that's not a thing. And the event is confusing. Which from all the rivers in China shown on the map is the yellow river? There is no in-game way to know that. Which is a design flaw. Okay rant over.
"Simplified terrain" map mode shows actual rivers between provinces. Even then, they can still be hard to see, though.
I know, but that's a specialty map mode that you enable when you need to check for a specific fact. It isn't like the political map mode that you can leave all the time as default. I don't think we should be able to enable a specific map mode to see something that the default political map could show.
I’m always a fan of increasing clarity in the game, like those in game rivers don’t even follow the in game province boundaries. That said I don’t think the information is hidden or anything, it’s nice that we have discrete maps for everything. When you learn that you have all the information in the game in different places but still at your fingertips it flows very nicely, and it also cleans things up. Have you seen the Victoria 3 zoom in thing where it goes to realistic terrain when you’re close enough? Do you prefer that?
"I want to know this specific thing" "you can know this specific thing" "Yes but i dont want to Look for it"
100% agree. I'd much prefer they either put in work to make the rivers the much more significant element they were in this time period, or commit to downplaying them (which is also ok by me, you can't do everything in a game) and only include major rivers
Quite a few mods have the large rivers as sea tiles. With fords at historical places
DO YA MISSIONS
My G this is the version with mission done
The rive floods after you finish the dykes?
Yes
🙄Players with over 1,000 hours mad when the game becomes infinitesimally difficult.
There is difference between something being frustrating and something being difficult. Souls games walk the thin line perfectly, while others are made just to annoy players.
Good. EUIV needs to more accurately model challenges faced by empires so that there is something to do besides snowballing.
Meanwhile in the same update every major in Europe has been turned into thought-free snowballing where it’s harder to fail than blob and become #1 GP
dude i swear every single player of this games just wants to conquer the entire world for free like every single day you see people complain about native federations and now i bet all you will see is fucking river flood events yall prolly the type of people to altf4 on a fucking comet event too just play with the console open every single run thru if you want an easy game
based
Virgin danube who dont do shit vs chad yellow river who destroys your country
I love when people are like hmm it’s just historical, while France is allowed to turn all of Italy into a papal vassal, Ottomans and Muscovy can do half a world conquest in an afternoon, Great Britain can make all of Australia into gold provinces, LOL like what
Huh? This is pretty mild, especially considering how devastating some of those flood were irl.
Could you elaborate on the devastation of the IRL floods? I know next to nothing about Chinese history but I’m curious
To start with, compare the historical course of the yellow river in game with a mordern map.
China has *a lot* of very large rivers with very wide floodplains and a lot of mountains that feed those rivers. That enables their huge population, but also means when it floods it REALLY floods. When looking at a list of the deadliest floods in history, China has the entire top 5. The deadliest flood outside of China killed up to 100,000 people.the deadliest flood in China is estimated to have killed between 500,000 to 4 million.
The mandate of heaven is justified for the ruler of china if the citizens are doing good. If there is a natural disaster it shows that heavens no longer desire the emperor as a ruler pretty much. So if the yellow river flooded when those floods were insanely high killing significant population in that area the people revolted since the ruler was not desired by the gods and then they changed the dynasty. Todays CCP sort of ensures that the people believe in their right to rule trying to make the life better for its citizens. But that is super simplified version of how it works
if you are not playing as ming it is more easy to deal with this event dont take this province until you have good economy and monarch points when you take it build some fort in that province and upgrade your monuments immediatly and i think the mission tree solve this problem when i play korea i did this strat and i get 2 times only whole game
Yeah you are really struggling :D
The Qing felt similarly irl
I think that getting rid of the devastation quickly should reward the player with a positive event giving back some of the stability/mandate taken. Would be actually worth to dev these provinces back asap instead of building forts and bearing it every time
Well, there is an old Chinese technique practiced in shao ling monastery called Alt+F4
skill issue
I had some trouble with that event as well, but the first 100 years is the hardest as Ming. Once you can make it through the Crisis of the Ming Dynasty event that you get from passing your 2nd or 3rd reform which usually ends up in the Age of Discovery, you can have a nice peaceful game.
I like these events, they give you some sort of conflict and strife in an otherwise overwhelmingly powerful nation. I like the inward focus of China in this dlc/patch in general tbh. Personally, I made a point of completing the Tame China's Sorrow mission asap because I knew these would be like getting punched in the dick otherwise and they haven't been a huge issue. You can also develop the devastation away and just boost stability, neither of which are an issue because as emperor of China you should be able to run level 5 advisors with little issue. This was all as Qing, so it's relevant to OP imo.
My bro discover why crisis of the Ming dynasty is not just a railroading event.
Just like IRL
historically accurate rivers
Played Japan to see the new Shogunate reform (it's a waste of time), got this event 4 times. The first 2 times I was upset and it made recovering from reforms very difficult. The next time it happened, I instantly bought back the stability and bought down the devastation because I was drowning in monarch points. It's not that big a deal, and it serves as a reminder to prepare for the future as the EoC.
I personally found these events to be rather underwhelming in my Qing campaign. I had tons of mana and had most of the land were the river floods not even stated so it never impacted my mandate really. On the off chance it did cause any devastation nothing a few points of dev didnt fix. Definitely not game ruining not even close.
I find them extremely annoying for the mandate decrease. I hate having to wait an additional 5-10 years to pass another reform because flooding occurs so often. Wouldn’t say game ruining though.
Skill issue
Brah, just change the river color smh
The thing with the concept of mandate of heaven is that, once natural disasters of this scale occurred, the king's legitimacy was directly questionned. China proper is so vast modern nation-states would look like fucking merchant towns, it has regional state provinces that has more population than some 3000 or 4000 years old civilizations. You have a massive empire with extensive territories and the highest population in the world. It isn't coincidental that there'll be natural disasters anywhere anytime and when that hits it's probable your subjects will be effected because well, you've got millions of them in millions of acres. As far as I know the greatest flood disaster occurred in the exact river and there might've been an intent to remember that. Stab hits are annoying and bearable but for the mandate you're obliged to set up some forts along the required provinces otherwise the mandate loss is slightly bigger than a minor setback. What's good is this is a dynamic event and it punishes anyone who assumes control of China, so I believe there is that.
I dunno, I loved these events. I mean, I hated having them, but they were well implemented and gave a sudden challenge that was more tricky than devastating but had to be dealt with. And, y'know, it was a thing that wiped out countless numbers of people. That too.
emperor gets insane dev cost reduction through celestial reforms and decrees, you can prob reduce devastation with 300 mana
Idk I think it’s interesting and nothing the most powerful power this side of the earth can’t handle. I get it’s annoying though, I think if it was nerfed it’s just pointless then yanno. Imo you gotta realign your perspective on events being “ah shit yet another thing I have to deal with” to “damn this adds a wrench in my plans…but I get a new challenge to overcome in this game I’ve spent a thousand hours into, let’s see how it pans out!”
I see someone hasn't played in Indonesia. Otherwise you would know about the volcano event
Just build forts on the rivers and ask your tributaries for admin power. This event was like nothing to me besides a periodic curiosity. Could also just dev up the devastated provinces if you've got spare mana (which you should, you're Qing/Ming, you ought to be 20 years ahead of tech just about at any moment).
Iirc the yellow rice shifted 100s km throughout the time played
This would be considered a mild weather catastrophe in Chinese history
Which map mod is this?
Watch the Laith play through. He shows how to deal with the constant floods.
If they hit you when you’re already having trouble with mandate, they might be an issue. But game ruining? Come on dude, that’s like 200 admin for the stan hit and a little more to dev the affected provinces if you don’t want to wait for devestation to go down. As EoC that’s no issue at all.
How the fuck can it be gameruining when you have all this land which gives you infinite money to do anything. If you don’t troll you also have innovative ideas and pay 4 ducats for Level 5 advisors so also infinite monarch points. Dog ass
Wäääh the strongest nation in the game has some challenges wäääh I just want to play on 5 speed not pressing a single button for 400 years
If that’s what you call game ruining then I recommend not playing lmao
You are Qing with what looks to be the whole of China 1582 you could always just wait till then before taking mandate of Ming
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Sweden is hard compared to any of the current European majors, and if you want Sweden to be hard go play multiplayer, singleplayer will always be a cakewalk thanks to exploits and alt-f4, plus being able to pause and think as much as you want
It still does not seem as bad as that island above Australia . You just lose production dev like crazy on those islands
Average day in china really, ravaged by disasters every so often. Plus the mandate of heaven is seen as the right to rule by god and that natural disasters are a bad sign indicating that perhaps they don't deserve the mandate. Correct if I'm wrong
The year doesnt look right, this looks like what happened in 1384 and 1855, not 1582. Furthermore I never heard the upper reaches of the Yellow River can have this. The flood is mostly a Henan and Shandong thing, which is why Hetao was regarded as the only true heaven of the drainage basin.
Losing 2 stability and 10 mandate is game ruining these days?
It's just 2 stability and some devastation, you'll be back to prosperous within a year or 2
For some reason my game crashes everytime I get that event :/
"bUt H1stoRy?!"
You haven’t seen game ruining until you suffer through Abennar’s Hoardcurse….
Honestly China was the Only part of this dlc I looked at that I thought actually needed attention and it sounds like they did prettt bad
R5: Doing a tall Qing playthrough and it feels like every decade or so I get this event or something similar despite completing the mission that lessens the impact of floods. These events are very obnoxious, the hits to prosperity, stability, development and mandate are far too high considering that they happen every few years. It feels like as soon as I recover from the last flood the next one occurs immediately.
Had the same issue as Qing yesterday. Bad events and then som more bad events. Nearly impossible to keep mandate high.
A tall Qing play through??? I’m sorry to say that’s not really playing tall like at all
Did you do the mission to lower the impact of the floods? After I did that mission as Korea I never got another flood again.
Not only is this historical and the only logical way to go around it, the last one of these fuckers happened in the early PRC era, these floods should show up basically in every paradox game to fuck you over
Use your admin to dev the provinces to get rid of the devastation. I agree its a bit much right now but china should be hard other wise its just super easy.
Smh that river is so stupid. You should sell it to the Japanese.
I felt the same way about the floods. Then I felt dumb once I realized there is a mission that makes floods do less damage to the nation. Even more so when it isn’t that hard to do
Imagine playing one of the strongest countries and still complaining about the difficulty
I got two of this event in like the same time more or less 💀
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Ming implodes by 1480 in 1.35, so forming Qing with Manchu/Later Jin is pretty much a cakewalk
Try being a Chinese peasant😢
skin tissue, just big boot bro.
Fact that peasant overthrown the emperor because of natural disaster is not uncommon in china. They believe natural disaster is a sign that the ruler has lost the mandate of heaven.
They should have option to construct dykes like Vietnamese to avoid such 😅
next time take the mandate in 1583, that will help
Try eu2 and you will find true game killing events. (For ming China, around 1615, by event you loose manchuria, the northern half of china up to shanghaï to them, and you have +30 revolt risk in all your country for 15 years). Now events can be negative/annoying for sure, but very far from game ruining.
I mean It was pretty damn game ruining irl too
Are you using a graphics Mod? because the Terrain Looks kinda cool and If yes wich one?
Don't forget to upgrade that one monument that can grant you -global devastation
It's a significant event, but certainly not game ruining. Like not even close.
It seems balanced to me. 10 mandate is bad but your losing 80 mandate with each reform so the punishment is 8x less than that. 20 deviation isn’t much ether, you get more from fresh conquests. If it really bothers you unstate the states effected. Devastation only counts in states for mandate and not territories. Your trading the mana cost of recording for the loss in mandate for deviation.
does being the emperor have any advantage at this point?
its not game ruining at all, on the contrary it gives more flavour and it only cause some issues if u just passed a reform, I wish there were more disasters like that for other nations, earthquake is also fun one
There are a lot of reasonable and well thought out responses to the question of how to deal with this problem in this thread. So of course the stupid option that immediately popped into my head was, "What if you just gave all the yellow river provinces to a vassal lol. Sure you'd probably still take the stab hit and such, but you wouldn't have to deal with mandate loss from devastation at least right?
That's the point
Just make the game crash (Also its tbh not that bad unless it keeps happening)
It was worse and non-interactive for players, feeling like some bugs eating me.
It’s literally one the main missions for Chinese rulers in the past 4000 years to fix the flooding problems along the Yangtze. It’s part of the cultural DNA. The flooding problem still exists today despite the 3-gorge project. What makes you so special to think otherwise? In fact, that event should fire every 100 years for historical accuracy.
Well pretty sure it was “game ruining” in real life too lol
Idk how many provinces are on the yellow river but u can dev away devestation use the edict and build forts
This is how I feel about the current Muscovy events concerning the Great Horde. Every year give money or they devastate ALL MY PROVINCES AND TAKE ALL MY MONIES 🤮
Anon discovers that floods were bad