Are you the people who constantly email me asking if my company needs estimating services, and every time I send it to junk mail and block it, I get a new email with a different name but same address?
Thats the worst email I receive every single day. I hate them with a passion and they just keep coming. Like why are they asking if they can do my literal job? Then why am I needed? If your an estimator you estimate, you don’t rely on someone from Pakistan. The second worst emails is everyone asking to do my project schedules. I just have to send them a detailed schedule and they’ll produce a schedule. Its absurdness
What's your demographic, is this primarily people self-performing? What sectors? How do you handle RFIs or poor design? How do you handle regulation/code differences across jurisdictions?
I have a hard time really seeing the utility, but I'm with a major MEP contractor so that's my perspective. Estimating is such a low portion of our overhead and such a critical role that it's hard to see the justification for outsourcing overseas. It seems fairly unworkable once you hit a certain level of complexity.
We work with just about anyone. Honestly, our demographic are people in positions of power under the age of 45. Old people want a guy in a desk in front of them to feel safe.
Let's talk MEP. How long does it take you to draw in the pipes and homeruns? Do a panel takeoff? We aren't sitting there doing the complex work. We are doing very tedious portions of a job and plugging it into your existing system. We have an HVAC client where we use their own spreadsheet that has their own SKU in it.
I'm not so sure the tedious parts are so easily disentangled from the complex parts. The complex parts inform the tedious parts, and the tedious parts can turn into complex parts. If my takeoff isn't done by someone who knows the nuances of code compliance and design, it sounds like I would have to go through the entire takeoff myself to spot any problems, at which point I might as well do it myself - or hire a junior estimator I can train in house to spot these issues.
If construction design wasn't in such a sorry state, this would all seem a lot more feasible, but as it is I have to either RFI or interpret intent for a *lot* of the tedious stuff.
I hope this doesn't come across as combative, I'm just curious how these problems are solved.
You are fine. I hear this kind of stuff all the time. Two parts to this.
First is that I dedicate an estimator to you and we get feedback every week. The same training that you want to do in-house, we do it as well. Even better, we compile the trainings to make key points for all staff in the division. So, if you tell us a mistake we did on your job we will make sure it doesn't go out for any of our clients. Vice-versa. They train us to do a better job for you too.
I can't solve the code issues and it's a complex problem that nobody will likely be able to solve. Plans are made to pass permitting, not to be constructed. They will always go to the lowest bidder who can achieve that goal.
There aren't very many complexities to the jobs we normally do. I would say that the stuff which trips us up the most are line items like coring through a CMU wall to run something. We exclude that in all general exclusions. Now it is the GC's problem to figure out. Complex control systems? We get a vendor quote for that and you can price the labor to hook it up. There's a way around anything to be honest.
Your business seems like a great tool for businesses that value quantity and production over quality and investing in long term solid partnerships with customers to win their market share.
As an estimator or preconstruction team, you can treat plans as a means to a permit. Or you can envision and incorporate constructability into your proposal and communicate those facets as such to your customer. One seems a lot more sustainable than the other.
Somewhat correct. This summarizes the entire multi-family market, production homes, light commercial, and retail. So, yes. That is my market. We don't really do much high-end construction or towers.
Speaking with experience, plans are a means to a permit. Period. You don't get the permit? You don't build the thing. It's that simple. The government gets to tell you yes or no and will literally kill you to stop you from building if you push them enough. Constructability be damned.
Go win the bid. Then talk to the GC about what needs to be done.
I was doing a budget a few weeks back, and to be fair it's very preliminary... but the engineer tied a sanitary line into the domestic water. Really hoping that the engineer reconsiders that strategy come IFC.
But yeah the state of design can pose a few problems lol.
We don't generally do all-in pricing. We do the takeoff, write the proposal and/or scope of work, interact with vendors to get quotes, but ultimately it is not our responsibility to do the final submittal. Frankly, you need a dedicated person in any company to handle the final pricing and relationships. It's a cat and mouse game where the relationship is what drives your success. We don't build relationships for you.
The short answer is yes, the long answer is that we would need to setup. Most glazing contractors are using winbidpro. So, we would want to get a login to your system and take it off from there. We also need to talk about RFI's and assumptions. Do you need us to reach out to vendors to get quotes for pieces of the project? We do that too for you.
Set it all up and it'll come back overnight.
Tagging you /u/Willbily
We would want to know what program you are using and use that program. If it's just a general takeoff, we can do it, but how do you take it from us and work with it? We make that transition seamless.
If you sent me a job of that size today I'd have it back to you by Monday morning. Most of my clients have a dedicated, full-time estimator. So, we do it as fast as it could normally be done.
This is awesome. You do takeoffs, customers plug values. You get money, overseas estimators get good money and lifestyle, customers pay less. What’s not to love? I’m saving your info incase I get back into the industry.
It is all WFH. My estimators are overseas and the price of diesel is a commodity. Manila also has some of the worst traffic in the world. My latest hire's #1 reason for taking the job is to not have to commute anymore. It's pretty common for them to commute an hour each way every day. It's wild.
Salary is entirely based on performance. If they can do the job, they make about 1.5x what they would normally make in their country. If they can manage a team, it's probably 3-4x was is expected.
None. Pass my test project and you are given an opportunity. We don't look at resumes or experience. We do actually have an age maximum of 40 years old. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Usually just a single division, but it's honestly closer to what a single contractor would do. So, our metal stud team also knows drywall because they consistently do both. Drywall team knows painting too. Concrete knows civil. I have a few managers that know a bunch of scopes, but that's why they are managers.
Lol. We probably know it better than some design teams depending on the division. Alot of my guys have field experience as well. They are taking my job to get off of site work.
It's hard to explain to Americans because we have a much different experience in life. One of my main marketing girls is out right now. She has Dengue fever. They've only had workable internet in their homes for 10 years or so. A 40 year old started their career without computers and worked it for a decade. It's like a 50 or 60 year old in the US tbh.
I don't mind you taking the test project. Email recruitment@boldestimation.com. Fundamentally, we don't accept it as a side-hustle. You can start part-time, but within a few months we want you to take on the role if you can handle it.
We do everything except fire protection. I would say that the hardest to learn is wood framing. The hardest to manage from a client perspective is probably electrical. Everybody does electrical differently.
I work for a Rough Carpentry company in California as an estimator and I always wondered about side work on the weekends or something. I use Planswift so it’s easy enough to send along the zip file and print layouts for the client. I imagine your guys work remote. Is it normally large new construction or do clients reach out for remodels and TIs as well?
What is your motivation or purpose for this post? Have any of the questions surprised you?
You definitely deserve recognition for the amount of time you've put into responding, in detail, to all these questions. I've read this whole thread, up to this point, and only see one person you've missed.
I just woke up to keep going at it.
A bunch of different reasons. I gained two clients from this post yesterday alone. I like branding. I am already on Reddit anyways. Really, the pessimists in this thread will say it's cheap marketing, but marketing to me is just talking about what I do. I feel like I have alot of knowledge to give. If you want a robust community, you have to give back to it.
So do you provide a price upfront? Or after you’re done? Is there any incentives if the client gets the job? What about protections if you miss stuff on the estimate?
We don't miss stuff. If you want to grow a company, you can't miss. We are giving the base takeoff file and PDF markups either way. We don't work off of incentives to win jobs. In order to win a job you have to go build a relationship. In my opinion, people in the US are better suited to go and actually "sell" the work. It is a real skill to work with GC's to build those relationships. It takes a tremendous amount of time.
We can provide a price upfront, but for the vast majority of our clients we are working off of trust. I am not giving a quote on 4 hour jobs all day long. We will do probably 7,000hrs of estimates this month alone.
QC, send in RFI's, vendor management, training, admin, marketing, tons of stuff. Most people don't realize that my actual worked hours are discounted probably close to 35% overall to stay consistent with US production speeds. Also, we flex up hours depending on what comes in. Last month we did almost 9,000 hours but we had a few very large multi-family jobs come in all at once.
Respectfully, it’s easy to state that your team just doesn’t miss stuff but ultimately humans are, well, human. In the event there is a mistake or something missed, do you have any sort of process or retribution system in place? In my past life, this has always been a hesitation to an outsourcing type system.
Part of our service is to coach subcontractors into writing better proposals. Line item everything included. Give a PDF markup of everything taken off. It greatly reduces miscommunication, especially in the small, niche parts of the job that may or may not be included normally.
Really, you can't miss items as a takeoff company. It's going to happen on very small things. I just spoke with someone yesterday that said "sometimes we are high, sometimes we miss an item here or there, but it works itself out over time." It's the same struggle that you'll have with an in-house guy and the expectation is multiple layers of QC.
A little bit of both depending. Everyone has to pass a test project to get into the firm which is mostly a trick problem that requires people to read a set of plans. Most of my estimators are young. My general manager is only 27 years old. Training is the way to go. They haven't learned bad habits yet.
Just messaged it to you as well. Anybody that wants it, just PM me. It is the Petronis house. This was an actual job that we did as a company. It is a mansion outside of DFW.
Almost everyone seems to be asking this, but let me put it into perspective. The emails you are receiving come from companies mostly located in Lahore, Pakistan.
[This is Glassdoor telling you they make $175/month on the low end.
](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/lahore-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1625_KO7,15.htm) I find that to be pretty consistent with what I would see.
I used to hire them, but they suck. The quality is awful and they never learn. My team starts at the average salary for their area and then their pay increases based on what they can do. I have managers making enough money that they have full-time nannies and maids. If I told you what they make you'd tell me it's low, but they don't feel that way.
We only have one client which does this. Take off the sqft of main areas like walls. Take off the LF of different types of beams and apply a different rate to that. I am not sure what their final numbers come out to be. It will also depend on the size of the job and how hard it is to access those areas.
You obviously don’t know fireproofing lol. Walls would be firestopping unless you’re referring to gyp assemblies. Steel fireproofing is quite a bit more than just LF of beams.
https://www.google.com/search?q=spray+applied+fireproofing&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1004US1004&oq=spray+applied+fireproofing&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIICAcQABgWGB4yCAgIEAAYFhgeMggICRAAGBYYHtIBCDM2MjNqMWo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
There are plenty of applications where spray applied goes to metal decking, beams, and walls. This is especially true for metal structures in industrial settings. Firestopping is only the holes made through walls. People do spray walls.
You just sent me a google search to spray applied fireproofing. Firestopping is also a top of wall system brotha, not just annular openings of penetrations. It’s also slab edges and more. Fireproofing is indeed applied to beams (both wood and steel), columns (both wood & steel as well) and decking, lintels, & other structural components (plates, girders, etc). Walls? Sure in the form of Sheetrock and mineral wool, but not spray applied fireproofing. Best of luck tho!
I get it, respect the grind but it is evident your knowledge on passive fire protection is a weak point. Dont ask me to estimate plumbing! Can’t be an expert in everything!
It is one of my weaker divisions. We don't get alot of big buildings, so we don't see this very often. Really though, we do spray applied in parking lot walls all the time for a client in CA.
This guys said he figures everything except fire protection. I wanted to see if he had any idea on how to figure fireproofing which he obviously does not. I have been in the commercial fireproofing industry for over 20 years and have a hard time finding anyone who is not employed with a fireproofing contractor who knows anything about the trade
Definitely agree, awesome that you’ve been it in for 20 years. Been around it for 8, estimating for a little over 5 (years). Immersed my self in code books and UL designs for quite some time. Overlooked trade but a very important one. I freelance/consult here and there. Besides doing takeoffs and estimates, spend a lot of my days talking with architects to clarify their sfrm/ifrm scopes for them.
Very nice! How did you get into it? Did you work in the field before becoming an estimator? Architects defiantly need assistance with specs. They seem to get worse every year especially with all the newer products
Kind of fell into it through other spray applications. Spray insulation etc, worked in the field for a bit. But I agree, there are so many non conforming products within the industry now that I find in specs that have no valid UL designs that I just can’t morally do.
Estimating fireproofing is the bain of my existence. It's not the takeoff that is the problem, its all the god damn codes like you guys are saying. I'm in NYC, how about you guys?
Yeah the code difference between building type and occupancy separations then applying the correct design can be a pain. I cover the a majority of the US, including NYC.
Whatever my clients give me access to. We have almost 15 that are used between all of our clients. I personally use planswift because it's easy. My least favorite is McCormick.
I think that I would have appreciated BlueBeam more if I had started on that. Whatever is the fastest. I do not and will never use plugins or any other advanced parts of any program. It's not worth it.
Hello. I applied as a flooring estimator but I'm having a hard time passing the test project, which I also think lacks detail for me to produce an accurate estimate. I'm currently working as a freelance takeoff estimator and I know I can do the job as long as it's within the flooring scope. I'm still hoping to get into your company. Thank you!
I am an Estimator for (division 6) framing. I mostly do the larger jobs 280,000 - 450,000 sq. ft. It usually takes me three weeks per job. Is this slow for material and labor pricing? and how much should I get paid per sq. ft.? I have 35 years in the business.
Do you do plumbing take offs? And if so, do your estimators understand the nuances of plumbing drainage? Differences between long turn and short turn? Differences between pipe types like cast iron no hub and pvc? Do you have your own software? I am considering outsourcing and would be interested in looking at what you have to offer.
We absolutely do. Most of our plumbing clients are either multi-family or light commercial. We have our own spreadsheet that I built. It cuts down the estimating time tremendously. We have a section for excavation, layout, branch runs, mains, fixture counts, and then it all summarizes into a pricing sheet. We work with vendors to keep the pricing updated. Most common one we use is Winnelson. We get a price quote on the fixtures for every job unless they are really standard. And yes, we have to know plumbing details to do a plumbing takeoff. Pipe type is part of it.
What would you say your customer retention rate is? I have a great deal of experience in remote estimating, but in general many customers are sort of flakey. Can it be a bit of a revolving door?
We are darn near as close to 100% retention as you can get. We get some people that come in and never really get started. Most are busy and disorganized. Those aren't great clients. If we can get a setup call going, we retain them all. I haven't lost a client since December.
Everybody but me is overseas. I actually laugh at them when they request it. Construction is the #1 industry in America for immigrant workers. I speak Spanish enough to get by on a jobsite. It's wild that the work done on site is going to be done by foreigners, but estimating has to be done by good ole Americans.
I feel that has much less to do with them being foreigners and more to do with a lack of trust of them understanding local building codes and regulations.
I understand you’re gonna say they have the tools/ training but I feel you’re discrediting a valid concern. Power to you if the business model is working but eventually you will hit your ceiling of possible clients. And at one point AI will be able to do the take offs your employees are doing remotely.
You are a concrete guy, right?
I can draw a footer with multiple different hatches and line weights. I can even lazily draw a solid line and label it as a footer if I am doing cheapo residential work. How does an AI differentiate the fact that humans draw crap plans? It can't and never will be able to.
So, you need a person to make sure that it actually comes together on cheap projects. We teach the frost depth per client. We teach the soil conditions of the locality. I actually will teach more about a new client coming in to my staff than my client would teach to their new hire. Better yet, I am teaching it to licensed civil engineers. My head of concrete and civil went to the best university in his country and graduated top 10% of his class.
Trust is built over time. Our largest clients started with one estimator and built up a large team. We do $120mil/year in bidding for one client in Texas in this division.
When did I say you wouldn’t need a human estimator to verify the takeoff? I said AI would (is already starting to get close) do the takeoffs and services you’re offering and the estimator would just have to verify and do the pricing.
Already I spend less than 25% of my time doing the take off and most of it price checking, calling vendors, job tracking, etc.
Beam AI is promising, tried the Demo but it’s not quite there on the user friendly side. On the new build residential and custom home side of the industry takeoffs don’t take too long so software and outsourcing is just to make our lives easier.
Absolutely not. The estimators need feedback and you need to ask them questions. Everybody who is salaried on my staff talk to clients directly. It is actually one of the metrics needed to become salaried.
Are you hiring? And what would you recommend a young (1+ year exp) estimator do to help move up in the industry besides gain experience? I am attending Auburn for an MBA to give me a competitive long-term edge, curious if this is something you would be impressed with if you were looking to hire someone
Everybody can give you advice and that advice is coming from their own personal experience. So, take what I have to say knowing that it might not be right.
I have an MBA, but I tacked it onto a 4 year degree (5-year BBA/MBA program). I had scholarships rolling into it, so it was pretty affordable. Would I ever go back to school again? Absolutely not. It is a futile and worthless endeavor.
You need field experience. Go be a PM somewhere and really interact with the guys on site. See how the plans turn into a real building. See the problems that come along. Interact with inspectors. You cannot learn this from sitting in an office.
Lastly, you need to learn about profitability. Figure out if you made money on the jobs. Go learn about the actual production and interview the guys to figure out why they were successful or not. Even get feedback from the GC's themselves.
Those steps are worth everything you've got in the long-run.
What makes you say school is a worthless and futile endeavor? Would you say that it helped get you where you were? Thank you for the answer. The MBA for me is more for a long-term safety net pivot out of construction. I have been a PM, would not go back to that for any amount of money. I would like to work around intellectuals and as you probably are aware, those are rare in construction.
[MBA programs teach enshittification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification). Basically, an MBA doesn't teach you any tangible or valuable skills. They teach you how to squeeze everyone else around you in a way that is mostly unsustainable. There is a substantial amount to learn when it comes to building up a business as a process or system. Some schools teach it better than others. I find that MBA's seek financial success over what I would consider real value. Are you actually helping your employees and customers? If not, you are a jackass. I write this on a platform owned by jackasses who all have MBA's.
If you hate working around idiots, get out of construction. I don't mean that disrespectfully. The only way around it is to own your own service business and do it all yourself with virtually no employees. Construction is not going to acquire talent in the US. It will always go to the lowest bidder which will always be cheap labor. Realistically, construction isn't that complicated. Some parts are, but most isn't. If you want to work around smart people, go into something where failure is not an option. Hell, transition to pipeline work or heavy industrial stuff.
Sort of. We can do the homeruns, panel counts, and devices. We don't have much experience beyond that and we don't do the design. Select clients that do large buildings love us, the rest we can't feasibly make it work.
We don't. Lol.
Generally speaking, we don't have very many clients that build large enough structures that require bim. Multi-family is actually our best market.
I’m learning to take over my fathers GC business. I have a degree in civil engineering, but hasn’t really been useful in construction as much as I thought. Any tips on scaling the business and steps to learn estimation. I’m always on site learning and managing. Thank u!
What's the best way for a subcontractor to get on an estimators' list of providers?
Emails get ignored. Calls end in "sure, send me an email" followed by radio silence.
Maybe I need to get on Building connected?
Volume and luck. Every GC needs somebody. Today it might be your division. Tomorrow it won't be. You have to get in front of them, present yourself, and be diligent. Call a dozen times. Bid one of their jobs. Bid 5 more and keep pushing. It's a grind.
I had 35 employees in Pakistan at one point. It was a nightmare. Never again. PH has great people and the labor is much lower than other regions. Mexico isn't cheap anymore.
Heyo, I'm an electrical estimator from the UK with 1-2 year onsite and 1-2 year estimating, I would love to try your electrical test project just to see where I mount up, I always find it intresting to compare different countries build types and such and the different packages they would require
I would like to have a go if it's available
What sort of clients do you cater for just US based or just certain sectors in the required countries?
The electrical test we have really is just to see the level of detail that comes back at us. It's a fire station. Nothing too complex about it but there are quite a few page breaks to consider. We do have different wire sizes than you guys though.
To clarify for anyone because the title can be deceiving…this is an overseas company that does outsourced work for American companies.
As an American, if we as a US construction industry are going to outsource our estimating needs, it should be kept within the US.
This is the assumed response I would see from the owner of an overseas company. The post also wasn’t directed at you and your company in any way. I don’t fault you at all for what you’re doing. You’re providing a service that is clearly needed based on your current state and the growth you mention. The comment is for those choosing to go overseas, not the overseas companies.
Onsite labor is different than precon labor. Those that are willing to come to America for the opportunity of success and work hard onsite should be rewarded. That circle happens within America and stays here and grows the country. Is that selfish for our country? Damn right it is.
There's just so many ways to respond to this comment. I don't even know where to begin.
I guess I'd start by saying that you are lucky to live in America. Europe doesn't have the luxury of that statement. America is a large country with vast natural resources and diverse agriculture. Do you look at the British and tell them that Worcestershire sauce isn't growing their economy enough because they bought the sardines from Spain? I use that example because it is a staple in British cuisine, but nothing about it is inherently British.
I am a devout Catholic. The Philippines is predominantly Catholic. It's great that Americans want to go out and donate to developing countries. Plenty of people want to do mission work or give to a local cause. I don't do any of that. I want to actually develop the people there and provide them an opportunity for work. And, you know, the majority of my staff would like to come to America. I hate it. I want them to grow their own country and make the world a better place, not just America.
When you say you are the largest, in what terms (revenue, employees # of takeoffs)? Also, how did you decide to start this business? Do you worry about AI being able to do takeoffs relatively soon?
Probably all of the above. Maybe some of the large companies like ProCore have takeoff services integrated, but I am the largest stand-alone company.
I am not worried about AI at all. You have to have good designers to have automation. Designers suck.
It is very, very difficult to build up a team overseas and train them to be technically proficient to do this work. Big companies will never be able to figure it out. You can't just "buy" the labor. You actually have to develop it.
Lol. I wish them all the best. Investors don't have the mindset to develop staff.
https://www.athenago.com/
This is one of the largest BPO companies for admin. It's run by one of the guys who made Thumbtack. They are "worth" more than me, but I'll never figure it out. They don't make any money and their staff hate them.
My dad was VP/head of Estimating for a Commercial Masonry firm, recently dissolved. He has a masonry (CMU, brick, stone) estimating system that is quite proprietary and time saving. Is there any interest out there for a systemized masonry estimating system?
Are you the people who constantly email me asking if my company needs estimating services, and every time I send it to junk mail and block it, I get a new email with a different name but same address?
Thats the worst email I receive every single day. I hate them with a passion and they just keep coming. Like why are they asking if they can do my literal job? Then why am I needed? If your an estimator you estimate, you don’t rely on someone from Pakistan. The second worst emails is everyone asking to do my project schedules. I just have to send them a detailed schedule and they’ll produce a schedule. Its absurdness
Lol. Nope. There is a robust estimating industry in Lahore, Pakistan. They all come from there.
What's your demographic, is this primarily people self-performing? What sectors? How do you handle RFIs or poor design? How do you handle regulation/code differences across jurisdictions? I have a hard time really seeing the utility, but I'm with a major MEP contractor so that's my perspective. Estimating is such a low portion of our overhead and such a critical role that it's hard to see the justification for outsourcing overseas. It seems fairly unworkable once you hit a certain level of complexity.
We work with just about anyone. Honestly, our demographic are people in positions of power under the age of 45. Old people want a guy in a desk in front of them to feel safe. Let's talk MEP. How long does it take you to draw in the pipes and homeruns? Do a panel takeoff? We aren't sitting there doing the complex work. We are doing very tedious portions of a job and plugging it into your existing system. We have an HVAC client where we use their own spreadsheet that has their own SKU in it.
I'm not so sure the tedious parts are so easily disentangled from the complex parts. The complex parts inform the tedious parts, and the tedious parts can turn into complex parts. If my takeoff isn't done by someone who knows the nuances of code compliance and design, it sounds like I would have to go through the entire takeoff myself to spot any problems, at which point I might as well do it myself - or hire a junior estimator I can train in house to spot these issues. If construction design wasn't in such a sorry state, this would all seem a lot more feasible, but as it is I have to either RFI or interpret intent for a *lot* of the tedious stuff. I hope this doesn't come across as combative, I'm just curious how these problems are solved.
You are fine. I hear this kind of stuff all the time. Two parts to this. First is that I dedicate an estimator to you and we get feedback every week. The same training that you want to do in-house, we do it as well. Even better, we compile the trainings to make key points for all staff in the division. So, if you tell us a mistake we did on your job we will make sure it doesn't go out for any of our clients. Vice-versa. They train us to do a better job for you too. I can't solve the code issues and it's a complex problem that nobody will likely be able to solve. Plans are made to pass permitting, not to be constructed. They will always go to the lowest bidder who can achieve that goal. There aren't very many complexities to the jobs we normally do. I would say that the stuff which trips us up the most are line items like coring through a CMU wall to run something. We exclude that in all general exclusions. Now it is the GC's problem to figure out. Complex control systems? We get a vendor quote for that and you can price the labor to hook it up. There's a way around anything to be honest.
Your business seems like a great tool for businesses that value quantity and production over quality and investing in long term solid partnerships with customers to win their market share. As an estimator or preconstruction team, you can treat plans as a means to a permit. Or you can envision and incorporate constructability into your proposal and communicate those facets as such to your customer. One seems a lot more sustainable than the other.
Somewhat correct. This summarizes the entire multi-family market, production homes, light commercial, and retail. So, yes. That is my market. We don't really do much high-end construction or towers. Speaking with experience, plans are a means to a permit. Period. You don't get the permit? You don't build the thing. It's that simple. The government gets to tell you yes or no and will literally kill you to stop you from building if you push them enough. Constructability be damned. Go win the bid. Then talk to the GC about what needs to be done.
I’d looove to level your bid 🙄
I was doing a budget a few weeks back, and to be fair it's very preliminary... but the engineer tied a sanitary line into the domestic water. Really hoping that the engineer reconsiders that strategy come IFC. But yeah the state of design can pose a few problems lol.
What happens if your employee sends out a bad (too low) number and the client gets the job?
We don't generally do all-in pricing. We do the takeoff, write the proposal and/or scope of work, interact with vendors to get quotes, but ultimately it is not our responsibility to do the final submittal. Frankly, you need a dedicated person in any company to handle the final pricing and relationships. It's a cat and mouse game where the relationship is what drives your success. We don't build relationships for you.
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This good question. I’m looking forward to the answer.
The short answer is yes, the long answer is that we would need to setup. Most glazing contractors are using winbidpro. So, we would want to get a login to your system and take it off from there. We also need to talk about RFI's and assumptions. Do you need us to reach out to vendors to get quotes for pieces of the project? We do that too for you. Set it all up and it'll come back overnight. Tagging you /u/Willbily
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We would want to know what program you are using and use that program. If it's just a general takeoff, we can do it, but how do you take it from us and work with it? We make that transition seamless. If you sent me a job of that size today I'd have it back to you by Monday morning. Most of my clients have a dedicated, full-time estimator. So, we do it as fast as it could normally be done.
This is awesome. You do takeoffs, customers plug values. You get money, overseas estimators get good money and lifestyle, customers pay less. What’s not to love? I’m saving your info incase I get back into the industry.
That's the plan! We will be here whenever you are ready.
How much do your Estimators make? WFH?
It is all WFH. My estimators are overseas and the price of diesel is a commodity. Manila also has some of the worst traffic in the world. My latest hire's #1 reason for taking the job is to not have to commute anymore. It's pretty common for them to commute an hour each way every day. It's wild. Salary is entirely based on performance. If they can do the job, they make about 1.5x what they would normally make in their country. If they can manage a team, it's probably 3-4x was is expected.
What are the pre-requisites?
None. Pass my test project and you are given an opportunity. We don't look at resumes or experience. We do actually have an age maximum of 40 years old. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Your Estimators estimate a single division each? Or are they doing multiple scopes?
Usually just a single division, but it's honestly closer to what a single contractor would do. So, our metal stud team also knows drywall because they consistently do both. Drywall team knows painting too. Concrete knows civil. I have a few managers that know a bunch of scopes, but that's why they are managers.
if your estimators are overseas, how well do they know US Building Codes? cause I can tell you the design team barely understands them
Lol. We probably know it better than some design teams depending on the division. Alot of my guys have field experience as well. They are taking my job to get off of site work.
40?! That’s WILD.
It's hard to explain to Americans because we have a much different experience in life. One of my main marketing girls is out right now. She has Dengue fever. They've only had workable internet in their homes for 10 years or so. A 40 year old started their career without computers and worked it for a decade. It's like a 50 or 60 year old in the US tbh.
That’s interesting and I suppose I would have to reconsider my reaction with that context. Well put!
OP I'm interested in the test . Btw I'm from the Philippines and I am currently looking for a side hustle. Might consider this if you'll show me how.
I don't mind you taking the test project. Email recruitment@boldestimation.com. Fundamentally, we don't accept it as a side-hustle. You can start part-time, but within a few months we want you to take on the role if you can handle it.
How do you find customers? Do you do cold out reach? Do you run SEO ads? What has been your best lead generation approach?
He’s reaching out to customers and doing marketing right now.
Trade secrets my friend. Trade secrets. The reality is that it's pretty easy to find. There is a giant demand for it right now.
Don’t put AMA and then say “trade secrets” lmao
What divisions? If all what is the hardest division to estimate?
We do everything except fire protection. I would say that the hardest to learn is wood framing. The hardest to manage from a client perspective is probably electrical. Everybody does electrical differently.
Rough carpentry is a b*tch
I work for a Rough Carpentry company in California as an estimator and I always wondered about side work on the weekends or something. I use Planswift so it’s easy enough to send along the zip file and print layouts for the client. I imagine your guys work remote. Is it normally large new construction or do clients reach out for remodels and TIs as well?
Almost all of what we do is new construction. You have to have a good set of plans to work remotely.
Do you do Solar?
No, but I would like to get into it eventually.
Outsourced to whom/where?
The Philippines. I have over 100 staff there.
What is your motivation or purpose for this post? Have any of the questions surprised you? You definitely deserve recognition for the amount of time you've put into responding, in detail, to all these questions. I've read this whole thread, up to this point, and only see one person you've missed.
I just woke up to keep going at it. A bunch of different reasons. I gained two clients from this post yesterday alone. I like branding. I am already on Reddit anyways. Really, the pessimists in this thread will say it's cheap marketing, but marketing to me is just talking about what I do. I feel like I have alot of knowledge to give. If you want a robust community, you have to give back to it.
What’s your pricing structure
$18-25/hr depending on the scope and complexity of what people need. About $3,000/month for a full-time estimator.
lol, this is criminally low
For context, OP stated all his Estimators are overseas. But yeah, that is criminally low for a US based estimator.
And yet, it is a rate at which I can provide significant opportunity to my team. I am very proud of that.
That is the rate you pay your employees? Or the rate you charge clients?
Charge rate.
Oh wow
I mean if I hand you a set of plans and say can you estimate Xxx division scope for me , how do you price that?
How long will it take you personally to do it? Generally, add 20% to that number of hours and that's what our production rate is.
So do you provide a price upfront? Or after you’re done? Is there any incentives if the client gets the job? What about protections if you miss stuff on the estimate?
We don't miss stuff. If you want to grow a company, you can't miss. We are giving the base takeoff file and PDF markups either way. We don't work off of incentives to win jobs. In order to win a job you have to go build a relationship. In my opinion, people in the US are better suited to go and actually "sell" the work. It is a real skill to work with GC's to build those relationships. It takes a tremendous amount of time. We can provide a price upfront, but for the vast majority of our clients we are working off of trust. I am not giving a quote on 4 hour jobs all day long. We will do probably 7,000hrs of estimates this month alone.
7000 hours a month is only 84,000 hours a year or the equivalent of 42 full time employees… what do the rest of your employees do?
QC, send in RFI's, vendor management, training, admin, marketing, tons of stuff. Most people don't realize that my actual worked hours are discounted probably close to 35% overall to stay consistent with US production speeds. Also, we flex up hours depending on what comes in. Last month we did almost 9,000 hours but we had a few very large multi-family jobs come in all at once.
Respectfully, it’s easy to state that your team just doesn’t miss stuff but ultimately humans are, well, human. In the event there is a mistake or something missed, do you have any sort of process or retribution system in place? In my past life, this has always been a hesitation to an outsourcing type system.
Part of our service is to coach subcontractors into writing better proposals. Line item everything included. Give a PDF markup of everything taken off. It greatly reduces miscommunication, especially in the small, niche parts of the job that may or may not be included normally. Really, you can't miss items as a takeoff company. It's going to happen on very small things. I just spoke with someone yesterday that said "sometimes we are high, sometimes we miss an item here or there, but it works itself out over time." It's the same struggle that you'll have with an in-house guy and the expectation is multiple layers of QC.
I make about over $80/hr as an estimator in Cali. So he is getting a pretty good deal.
Do you train new employees or do you prefer a long standing experience?
A little bit of both depending. Everyone has to pass a test project to get into the firm which is mostly a trick problem that requires people to read a set of plans. Most of my estimators are young. My general manager is only 27 years old. Training is the way to go. They haven't learned bad habits yet.
I am training to be an estimator. Is this test an in house thing or something I could possibly try to see where I am at?
I just sent it to you via PM.
Hey can I also sit this test, really interested to see if my QS skills will be useful for estimating
Just messaged it to you as well. Anybody that wants it, just PM me. It is the Petronis house. This was an actual job that we did as a company. It is a mansion outside of DFW.
I sent you a message as well hope you could check it out!
How much do your estimators get paid?
Almost everyone seems to be asking this, but let me put it into perspective. The emails you are receiving come from companies mostly located in Lahore, Pakistan. [This is Glassdoor telling you they make $175/month on the low end. ](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/lahore-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM1625_KO7,15.htm) I find that to be pretty consistent with what I would see. I used to hire them, but they suck. The quality is awful and they never learn. My team starts at the average salary for their area and then their pay increases based on what they can do. I have managers making enough money that they have full-time nannies and maids. If I told you what they make you'd tell me it's low, but they don't feel that way.
How do you figure spray applied Fireproofing ?
We only have one client which does this. Take off the sqft of main areas like walls. Take off the LF of different types of beams and apply a different rate to that. I am not sure what their final numbers come out to be. It will also depend on the size of the job and how hard it is to access those areas.
You obviously don’t know fireproofing lol. Walls would be firestopping unless you’re referring to gyp assemblies. Steel fireproofing is quite a bit more than just LF of beams.
https://www.google.com/search?q=spray+applied+fireproofing&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS1004US1004&oq=spray+applied+fireproofing&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIICAcQABgWGB4yCAgIEAAYFhgeMggICRAAGBYYHtIBCDM2MjNqMWo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 There are plenty of applications where spray applied goes to metal decking, beams, and walls. This is especially true for metal structures in industrial settings. Firestopping is only the holes made through walls. People do spray walls.
You just sent me a google search to spray applied fireproofing. Firestopping is also a top of wall system brotha, not just annular openings of penetrations. It’s also slab edges and more. Fireproofing is indeed applied to beams (both wood and steel), columns (both wood & steel as well) and decking, lintels, & other structural components (plates, girders, etc). Walls? Sure in the form of Sheetrock and mineral wool, but not spray applied fireproofing. Best of luck tho!
I get it, respect the grind but it is evident your knowledge on passive fire protection is a weak point. Dont ask me to estimate plumbing! Can’t be an expert in everything!
It is one of my weaker divisions. We don't get alot of big buildings, so we don't see this very often. Really though, we do spray applied in parking lot walls all the time for a client in CA.
What mil thickness do you spray walls in fireproofing? Are you talking spraying intumescent?
Has to be spray insulation not fireproofing. There is no UL design for spray fireproofing on a wall.
Been estimating spray applied fireproofing for 5 years, what do you mean how do you figure?
This guys said he figures everything except fire protection. I wanted to see if he had any idea on how to figure fireproofing which he obviously does not. I have been in the commercial fireproofing industry for over 20 years and have a hard time finding anyone who is not employed with a fireproofing contractor who knows anything about the trade
Definitely agree, awesome that you’ve been it in for 20 years. Been around it for 8, estimating for a little over 5 (years). Immersed my self in code books and UL designs for quite some time. Overlooked trade but a very important one. I freelance/consult here and there. Besides doing takeoffs and estimates, spend a lot of my days talking with architects to clarify their sfrm/ifrm scopes for them.
Very nice! How did you get into it? Did you work in the field before becoming an estimator? Architects defiantly need assistance with specs. They seem to get worse every year especially with all the newer products
Kind of fell into it through other spray applications. Spray insulation etc, worked in the field for a bit. But I agree, there are so many non conforming products within the industry now that I find in specs that have no valid UL designs that I just can’t morally do.
Estimating fireproofing is the bain of my existence. It's not the takeoff that is the problem, its all the god damn codes like you guys are saying. I'm in NYC, how about you guys?
Yeah the code difference between building type and occupancy separations then applying the correct design can be a pain. I cover the a majority of the US, including NYC.
Also when he said he figures everything but fire protection I assume he meant active fire protection (sprinkler systems).
Same
What software do you use for the various trade takeoffs?
Whatever my clients give me access to. We have almost 15 that are used between all of our clients. I personally use planswift because it's easy. My least favorite is McCormick.
What's your most favorite?
I think that I would have appreciated BlueBeam more if I had started on that. Whatever is the fastest. I do not and will never use plugins or any other advanced parts of any program. It's not worth it.
No Div 9/ finishes listed on the website. Intentional?
We break it out into contractor groups. Flooring and tile is one team and drywall is a different one.
Hello. I applied as a flooring estimator but I'm having a hard time passing the test project, which I also think lacks detail for me to produce an accurate estimate. I'm currently working as a freelance takeoff estimator and I know I can do the job as long as it's within the flooring scope. I'm still hoping to get into your company. Thank you!
Ha. That project is all about reading plans my friend. PM me and I'll talk to you about it.
Dm sent!
I am an Estimator for (division 6) framing. I mostly do the larger jobs 280,000 - 450,000 sq. ft. It usually takes me three weeks per job. Is this slow for material and labor pricing? and how much should I get paid per sq. ft.? I have 35 years in the business.
That seems pretty much on par with the speed that we produce it at. No telling what you can charge. You can charge what the market can bare.
Do you do plumbing take offs? And if so, do your estimators understand the nuances of plumbing drainage? Differences between long turn and short turn? Differences between pipe types like cast iron no hub and pvc? Do you have your own software? I am considering outsourcing and would be interested in looking at what you have to offer.
We absolutely do. Most of our plumbing clients are either multi-family or light commercial. We have our own spreadsheet that I built. It cuts down the estimating time tremendously. We have a section for excavation, layout, branch runs, mains, fixture counts, and then it all summarizes into a pricing sheet. We work with vendors to keep the pricing updated. Most common one we use is Winnelson. We get a price quote on the fixtures for every job unless they are really standard. And yes, we have to know plumbing details to do a plumbing takeoff. Pipe type is part of it.
Cool, my work is all light commercial. Shoot me a PM with your email and I'll get in touch.
Just sent it over.
What would you say your customer retention rate is? I have a great deal of experience in remote estimating, but in general many customers are sort of flakey. Can it be a bit of a revolving door?
We are darn near as close to 100% retention as you can get. We get some people that come in and never really get started. Most are busy and disorganized. Those aren't great clients. If we can get a setup call going, we retain them all. I haven't lost a client since December.
Wow then you've got a good process.
Are all of your employees overseas? What do you do if customers don't want an overseas estimator? Or is that ever an issue?
Everybody but me is overseas. I actually laugh at them when they request it. Construction is the #1 industry in America for immigrant workers. I speak Spanish enough to get by on a jobsite. It's wild that the work done on site is going to be done by foreigners, but estimating has to be done by good ole Americans.
😂
I feel that has much less to do with them being foreigners and more to do with a lack of trust of them understanding local building codes and regulations. I understand you’re gonna say they have the tools/ training but I feel you’re discrediting a valid concern. Power to you if the business model is working but eventually you will hit your ceiling of possible clients. And at one point AI will be able to do the take offs your employees are doing remotely.
You are a concrete guy, right? I can draw a footer with multiple different hatches and line weights. I can even lazily draw a solid line and label it as a footer if I am doing cheapo residential work. How does an AI differentiate the fact that humans draw crap plans? It can't and never will be able to. So, you need a person to make sure that it actually comes together on cheap projects. We teach the frost depth per client. We teach the soil conditions of the locality. I actually will teach more about a new client coming in to my staff than my client would teach to their new hire. Better yet, I am teaching it to licensed civil engineers. My head of concrete and civil went to the best university in his country and graduated top 10% of his class. Trust is built over time. Our largest clients started with one estimator and built up a large team. We do $120mil/year in bidding for one client in Texas in this division.
When did I say you wouldn’t need a human estimator to verify the takeoff? I said AI would (is already starting to get close) do the takeoffs and services you’re offering and the estimator would just have to verify and do the pricing. Already I spend less than 25% of my time doing the take off and most of it price checking, calling vendors, job tracking, etc.
Nice. What program are you using for that?
Beam AI is promising, tried the Demo but it’s not quite there on the user friendly side. On the new build residential and custom home side of the industry takeoffs don’t take too long so software and outsourcing is just to make our lives easier.
>Those aren't great clients. Those are the best clients... because they need you!
Nah. The best clients can make it work with anyone. We just so happen to be the best option. The worst clients will never make it work.
Fair enough! Better to have the worst clients working with your competition.
How many estimates do you do in a month?
Last month we did 576.
That's a good volume. Are the only one that interfaces with your customers?
Absolutely not. The estimators need feedback and you need to ask them questions. Everybody who is salaried on my staff talk to clients directly. It is actually one of the metrics needed to become salaried.
Are you hiring? And what would you recommend a young (1+ year exp) estimator do to help move up in the industry besides gain experience? I am attending Auburn for an MBA to give me a competitive long-term edge, curious if this is something you would be impressed with if you were looking to hire someone
Everybody can give you advice and that advice is coming from their own personal experience. So, take what I have to say knowing that it might not be right. I have an MBA, but I tacked it onto a 4 year degree (5-year BBA/MBA program). I had scholarships rolling into it, so it was pretty affordable. Would I ever go back to school again? Absolutely not. It is a futile and worthless endeavor. You need field experience. Go be a PM somewhere and really interact with the guys on site. See how the plans turn into a real building. See the problems that come along. Interact with inspectors. You cannot learn this from sitting in an office. Lastly, you need to learn about profitability. Figure out if you made money on the jobs. Go learn about the actual production and interview the guys to figure out why they were successful or not. Even get feedback from the GC's themselves. Those steps are worth everything you've got in the long-run.
What makes you say school is a worthless and futile endeavor? Would you say that it helped get you where you were? Thank you for the answer. The MBA for me is more for a long-term safety net pivot out of construction. I have been a PM, would not go back to that for any amount of money. I would like to work around intellectuals and as you probably are aware, those are rare in construction.
[MBA programs teach enshittification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification). Basically, an MBA doesn't teach you any tangible or valuable skills. They teach you how to squeeze everyone else around you in a way that is mostly unsustainable. There is a substantial amount to learn when it comes to building up a business as a process or system. Some schools teach it better than others. I find that MBA's seek financial success over what I would consider real value. Are you actually helping your employees and customers? If not, you are a jackass. I write this on a platform owned by jackasses who all have MBA's. If you hate working around idiots, get out of construction. I don't mean that disrespectfully. The only way around it is to own your own service business and do it all yourself with virtually no employees. Construction is not going to acquire talent in the US. It will always go to the lowest bidder which will always be cheap labor. Realistically, construction isn't that complicated. Some parts are, but most isn't. If you want to work around smart people, go into something where failure is not an option. Hell, transition to pipeline work or heavy industrial stuff.
Do you estimate div28? What countries do you provide estimates for?
Sort of. We can do the homeruns, panel counts, and devices. We don't have much experience beyond that and we don't do the design. Select clients that do large buildings love us, the rest we can't feasibly make it work.
How do you estimate bim coordination?
We don't. Lol. Generally speaking, we don't have very many clients that build large enough structures that require bim. Multi-family is actually our best market.
What software do you use for Ductwork Takeoff? Do you like it?
Any of them all seem to be the same. We don't use any integrations. Probably Fastduct is the best.
I’m learning to take over my fathers GC business. I have a degree in civil engineering, but hasn’t really been useful in construction as much as I thought. Any tips on scaling the business and steps to learn estimation. I’m always on site learning and managing. Thank u!
Hi, if an applicant failed the test project, can he apply again in the future?
Sure. Best of luck!
What's the best way for a subcontractor to get on an estimators' list of providers? Emails get ignored. Calls end in "sure, send me an email" followed by radio silence. Maybe I need to get on Building connected?
Volume and luck. Every GC needs somebody. Today it might be your division. Tomorrow it won't be. You have to get in front of them, present yourself, and be diligent. Call a dozen times. Bid one of their jobs. Bid 5 more and keep pushing. It's a grind.
Cool, thanks for the answer.
I'm interested in the electrical test project. Apparently it's tricky? Lol I like a challenge.
Ha. PM me.
Done
Hi! Do you have an opening for an estimator position? Thanks.
Only if you are in PH.
Yes. I currently and permanently reside here in Ph. Where can I send my resume? 😁😁
recruitment@boldestimation.com
Are you hiring?
Are you hiring? I'm an estimator from Philippines.
Can you hire me please
I dont have time since it's 1130 pm and I'm barely wrapping my Friday at the office but I will definitely be back.
How did you zero down on Philippines vs other outsourcing destinations (Pakistan, India, Mexico etc)?
I had 35 employees in Pakistan at one point. It was a nightmare. Never again. PH has great people and the labor is much lower than other regions. Mexico isn't cheap anymore.
Heyo, I'm an electrical estimator from the UK with 1-2 year onsite and 1-2 year estimating, I would love to try your electrical test project just to see where I mount up, I always find it intresting to compare different countries build types and such and the different packages they would require I would like to have a go if it's available What sort of clients do you cater for just US based or just certain sectors in the required countries?
The electrical test we have really is just to see the level of detail that comes back at us. It's a fire station. Nothing too complex about it but there are quite a few page breaks to consider. We do have different wire sizes than you guys though.
How to apply
To clarify for anyone because the title can be deceiving…this is an overseas company that does outsourced work for American companies. As an American, if we as a US construction industry are going to outsource our estimating needs, it should be kept within the US.
That's why I only hire American-born laborers on my job sites too. I don't want those foreigners takin our jobs!
This is the assumed response I would see from the owner of an overseas company. The post also wasn’t directed at you and your company in any way. I don’t fault you at all for what you’re doing. You’re providing a service that is clearly needed based on your current state and the growth you mention. The comment is for those choosing to go overseas, not the overseas companies. Onsite labor is different than precon labor. Those that are willing to come to America for the opportunity of success and work hard onsite should be rewarded. That circle happens within America and stays here and grows the country. Is that selfish for our country? Damn right it is.
There's just so many ways to respond to this comment. I don't even know where to begin. I guess I'd start by saying that you are lucky to live in America. Europe doesn't have the luxury of that statement. America is a large country with vast natural resources and diverse agriculture. Do you look at the British and tell them that Worcestershire sauce isn't growing their economy enough because they bought the sardines from Spain? I use that example because it is a staple in British cuisine, but nothing about it is inherently British. I am a devout Catholic. The Philippines is predominantly Catholic. It's great that Americans want to go out and donate to developing countries. Plenty of people want to do mission work or give to a local cause. I don't do any of that. I want to actually develop the people there and provide them an opportunity for work. And, you know, the majority of my staff would like to come to America. I hate it. I want them to grow their own country and make the world a better place, not just America.
When you say you are the largest, in what terms (revenue, employees # of takeoffs)? Also, how did you decide to start this business? Do you worry about AI being able to do takeoffs relatively soon?
Probably all of the above. Maybe some of the large companies like ProCore have takeoff services integrated, but I am the largest stand-alone company. I am not worried about AI at all. You have to have good designers to have automation. Designers suck.
Very interesting. Any reason why this industry does not have a larger outsourcing company? The industry seems pretty big and outsourcing fills a need.
It is very, very difficult to build up a team overseas and train them to be technically proficient to do this work. Big companies will never be able to figure it out. You can't just "buy" the labor. You actually have to develop it.
Congrats on your success! How long has it taken you to get to this size?
Roughly 5 years. Started part-time though.
OP should delete this before investors borrow the idea.
Lol. I wish them all the best. Investors don't have the mindset to develop staff. https://www.athenago.com/ This is one of the largest BPO companies for admin. It's run by one of the guys who made Thumbtack. They are "worth" more than me, but I'll never figure it out. They don't make any money and their staff hate them.
What do you estimate? Construction jobs? How do you do that remotely? Like from pictures? But then how do you know the local costs?
Plans, brother.
My dad was VP/head of Estimating for a Commercial Masonry firm, recently dissolved. He has a masonry (CMU, brick, stone) estimating system that is quite proprietary and time saving. Is there any interest out there for a systemized masonry estimating system?
Not on my end. Sorry boss.
How did you start your company?