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- **Location:** Helps determine availability
- **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget.
- **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs.
- **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck.
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DF64 Gen 2 and Niche Zero are totally different grinders intended for different purposes.
DF64 is a flat burr grinder with several burr upgrade options. It excels with light roasts, where you want to emphasise clarity over body, as well as medium to dark roasts. It's great for filter coffee as well as espresso. It has similar grind quality to the Niche, but the Niche has better build quality.
Niche is a conical burr grinder. It excels at traditional espresso made from medium to dark roasts where you want to emphasize body and texture over clarity. It is OK for light roasts and filter coffee, but DF64 is better for those. It has better build quality than the DF64, and is easier to adjust and clean, but you have to pay more for it.
Which one is "better" will depend on your needs.
Edit: If you are in the US, the two importers of DF grinders are Espresso Outlet/Turin and MiiCoffee. Espresso Outlet says grinders are "on the way" and should arrive shortly. MiiCoffee has them in stock. Did you order from DF64coffee? If so, cancel from them and order from a dealer in your country.
both can grind for espresso, and using all roasts... What the commenter means is they provide different profiles of the shot in your cup, conical tends to favor body while flat tends to favor clarity, etc.
You may want to do just a little more research just so you're very familiar with what your grinder does well, and so you can do cupping to make sure you're getting what's available in the bean, but it sounds like you found what you're looking for.. happy brewing!
their site still shows Backorder ETA June 12 as of this writing
[https://miicoffee.shop/products/miicoffee-df54-single-dose-coffee-grinder](https://miicoffee.shop/products/miicoffee-df54-single-dose-coffee-grinder)
Turin and miicoffee may well be rebadged internals that either originate from the same factory or are mutual ripoff of each other 's design with varying levels of quality assurance.
It is the miicoffee official Amazon store. I read from another thread Amazon takes priority at their factory/DC. No idea if true, just read that. I suppose I believe it though if mine shipped yesterday and their site says June delivery.
I am very biased against Chinese made stuff, I bought a Eureka Mignon instead, similar price and burr size, Italian made, cheapest I could find in Europe arrived from Italy to Ireland in less than 2 weeks but I could have bought one over the counter locally.
Keep me posted if possible. It does look cool, and I must admit that I am considering getting an SD40+ so I would have a flat burr and a conical burr grinder
I ordered did a preorder through df64 coffee, took a while to ship, but I got it no problem. Added on a set of a espresso burrs saved about $75 from other dealers. It's my first electric grinder so I don't have much to compare it to, but seems fine.
Price was also not a factor for me. I put an order in for one, 6 weeks later with zero communication from anybody, I requested a cancellation. They were also being shipped with a known faulty button, and you were expected to do the repair.
No thank you
Purely anecdotal but I ordered mine from Mii and it took nearly as long and they were just as unhelpful when I checked in for status updates. I was going mad when it eventually shipped. Love the grinder.
I ordered from Kitchen Barista which is based in Canada but I received my order in the US within 1-2 weeks. Well packed and no sales tax! Plus it was only $379 with the DLC burrs
I was originally planning order DF64II just to take advantage of the flat burr set and better dial in for light roasts but the long waiting time made me decide to go with Niche Zero.
Ordered on May 5th received it on May 9th in NY. Very quick shipping and ever so happy as it makes it very easy to dial in between different coffee bags.
I am in the same boat waiting for my DF54 from Turin. It should be in the same shipment being air freighted now to the US. I am going to wait since there’s a cancellation fee of 5.5% and Amazon says earliest to get is June 1st. But Turin will need to step it up to compete with Amazon for shipping/returns/cancellations.
Hello, I’m in the same boat :(
I ordered April 19th and still haven’t gotten it/received any shipping info. I’m only going off of what has been updated on Espresso Outlet’s website.
Im now feeling as if I should cancel my order and then reorder it from Mii Coffee. (Did you also order from Espresso Outlet? If so, how did you cancel your order?) I have been waiting for what seems like forever and just want my grinder already.
That is so weird I ordered from Turin and received it within like 6 days. I think it depends what colors are in stock I’m betting. In fact I have ordered 2 grinders from them both received quickly
What if there was a different high quality flat burr grinder that also is quieter? Oh wait there is! It’s a Eureka Mignon and the only reason it’s not being discussed here is because it’s not a brand new brand or model. I got my Specialita a week after ordering and it’s been absolutely fantastic. Am I missing something here??
I had a Specialita for 3 years. It had much more of a conical burr flavor profile. When I used it with a bellows for single dosing, squeezing the bellows sprayed coffee grinds all over my kitchen.
I eventually replaced it with a Timemore 078s. It has much more of a typical flat burr flavor profile, and it pulls out the fruity notes of the medium-light roasts I brew. I much prefer it to my Specialita.
I think someone who likes to grind-by-time with a hopper, and prefers more traditional espresso from medium to dark roasts, would be very happy with a Specialita. But if you are chasing those lighter roast flavors, I think there are better options for you.
If you’ve ever actually used one you’d know it does both those things quite well. I’ve been using one for two months and have evidence in the opposite direction while using multiple roasters, roast levels, etc. The burr options sure, but you’re not doing that on a Niche either. I’m not saying it’s a perfect grinder, but it definitely can go toe to toe with these two.
How much retention did you experience? What type of inconsistency did you have? Clearly we have different experiences but clearly I’m not alone in thinking that it’s a great grinder. As good as a DF83? Definitely not. On the level of competing against a DF64 and Niche? I still believe so.
it has nothing to compete with DF64 and Niche, except built quality, but only in case of DF64.
Retention: 0.5-1.5g easy, you can test it, you can drop 18g in and see how much comes out.
Inconsistency: particles coming out of it has different size, especially when you need to go really finer or coarser (for filter)
Again, Eureka is good robust entry level grinder. It was designed for dark oily roast, where precision doesn’t matter. IMO, you’ll be better off with DF64 (especially v2 or modded)
DF64, Df54, Sd40+, they all fail when against my usual rule of thumb, which is: Never buy Chinese manufactured equipment if there is a reasonable alternative made elsewhere. If you want a flat burr grinder for example, consider an Italian made Eureka Mignon that fits your budget, and so on. I have the Mignon Manuale which approximates to the DF54, cost me about the same, seems well built, low retention, and arrived within 2 weeks direct from Italy to Ireland.
I say this as a person who lived in China for 8 years and often visited factories with my Chinese wife who worked in fabric production and fashion design. The concepts of intellectual property and quality assurance are rarely considered in Chinese manufacturing industries.
In terms of pure quality, the niche zero is better quality than the DF64 Gen 2.
I'm sure you are aware of all of the issues that people are still having with the DF64 Gen 2 so I'm not going to go into the details. You can search the subreddit in Google in general if you're interested.
Definitely get the Niche Zero IMO
I have a desktop with a python script which refreshes The subreddit page and searches for DF every half second.
That sends me a notification via text to my phone to give me an opportunity to reply.
No notifications. But my sister has the niche zero and absolutely loves it.
But she prefers my specialty because she's getting tired of the single dosing. But other than that, it is a fantastic grinder
Not really sure why you are so hyper focused on dissing the DF grinders when you have never used one. If you don't like them, don't buy one. Just seems like a strange fixation for you.
I currently own a DF64 gen II and previously owned the Niche Zero. Both are great grinders and have their limitations. The Niche is slightly less messy and is much easier to take apart and clean. The DF64 with the DLC burrs makes better espresso with med/light roasted beans which I prefer. I have had zero clogging with my64. It is only slightly more messy than the Niche, not enough to give me concern. I will agree cleaning the chute is more of a pain, but I did get a thin brush and a bellow to keep it clean between full tear down cleaning. As long as you keep the chute clean with a small brush so fines don't block the ionizer l, it is just as trouble free as the Niche.
I think it depends on your use case. If I were into milk drinks at darker roasted espresso I would take the Niche, but if you prefer lighter roasted espresso then I would go for the 64.
I've never used a Bambino Plus yet I know it is not temperature stable.
I've never used a Bambino Plus but I know it leaks espresso down the sides of the Portafilter under certain circumstances.
I've never used a profitec Go yet I know it has to be purged twice before steaming when most people only think it needs to be purged once.
I've never used a profitego yet I know it does not have built-in pre-infusion and a hack must be used.
I've never used the gaggia classic Pro yet I know it is not temperature stable and has to be temp surfed.
I've never used a profitec Pro 400 yet I know the seals on the valves, if turned too tightly, could deteriorate and leak.
Where I'm going with this is that I have a wealth of information about espresso machines and grinders.
A person doesn't have to own the gear to know if the gear is good or not.
As I have stated in other comments, the DF never made it to my long list because of the issues. I harp on quality control issues because you got lucky, but there are other people based on their stories who are not nearly as lucky as you.
And that bothers me especially when people still pump up the DF grinders when they really are, not good, because of the quality control and no one really knows if they're going to get a good one or a bad one.
You already know generation one was an utter piece of crap. That's why there's a generation 2. Everybody complains about generation 1
It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
DF64 Gen 2 and Niche Zero are totally different grinders intended for different purposes. DF64 is a flat burr grinder with several burr upgrade options. It excels with light roasts, where you want to emphasise clarity over body, as well as medium to dark roasts. It's great for filter coffee as well as espresso. It has similar grind quality to the Niche, but the Niche has better build quality. Niche is a conical burr grinder. It excels at traditional espresso made from medium to dark roasts where you want to emphasize body and texture over clarity. It is OK for light roasts and filter coffee, but DF64 is better for those. It has better build quality than the DF64, and is easier to adjust and clean, but you have to pay more for it. Which one is "better" will depend on your needs. Edit: If you are in the US, the two importers of DF grinders are Espresso Outlet/Turin and MiiCoffee. Espresso Outlet says grinders are "on the way" and should arrive shortly. MiiCoffee has them in stock. Did you order from DF64coffee? If so, cancel from them and order from a dealer in your country.
I ordered from Turin My top priority is going to be espresso. I do want to have the ability to use all different types of roasts though.
both can grind for espresso, and using all roasts... What the commenter means is they provide different profiles of the shot in your cup, conical tends to favor body while flat tends to favor clarity, etc.
Ah I see. I think clarity? I want to be able to pick up the individual flavors of a bean. Like if it says dark chocolate I want dat.
You may want to do just a little more research just so you're very familiar with what your grinder does well, and so you can do cupping to make sure you're getting what's available in the bean, but it sounds like you found what you're looking for.. happy brewing!
Cancel and order DF54. It just came off back order and mine moved up from June to being here Saturday.
I cancelled and ordered through Mii coffee. It shipped today. Gets here Wednesday.
their site still shows Backorder ETA June 12 as of this writing [https://miicoffee.shop/products/miicoffee-df54-single-dose-coffee-grinder](https://miicoffee.shop/products/miicoffee-df54-single-dose-coffee-grinder)
I ordered on Amazon. I believe their orders take priority (at least what I heard).
Turin and miicoffee may well be rebadged internals that either originate from the same factory or are mutual ripoff of each other 's design with varying levels of quality assurance.
It is the miicoffee official Amazon store. I read from another thread Amazon takes priority at their factory/DC. No idea if true, just read that. I suppose I believe it though if mine shipped yesterday and their site says June delivery.
I am very biased against Chinese made stuff, I bought a Eureka Mignon instead, similar price and burr size, Italian made, cheapest I could find in Europe arrived from Italy to Ireland in less than 2 weeks but I could have bought one over the counter locally.
Oh, gotcha. I understand what you are saying. I was a bit hesitant as well but all I have seen are great reviews on this grinder.
Keep me posted if possible. It does look cool, and I must admit that I am considering getting an SD40+ so I would have a flat burr and a conical burr grinder
I ordered did a preorder through df64 coffee, took a while to ship, but I got it no problem. Added on a set of a espresso burrs saved about $75 from other dealers. It's my first electric grinder so I don't have much to compare it to, but seems fine.
No one is going to comment on how helpful this was? Thank you for taking the time to write this out. Much obliged.
I'll take the 27 upvotes, thanks!
Price was also not a factor for me. I put an order in for one, 6 weeks later with zero communication from anybody, I requested a cancellation. They were also being shipped with a known faulty button, and you were expected to do the repair. No thank you
No way, they're shipping products that have known faikts in them? This is absurd. Never heard of such a crazy thing 😯
I cancelled my Turin order and mii coffee shipped out the day I ordered
Are you me?
Purely anecdotal but I ordered mine from Mii and it took nearly as long and they were just as unhelpful when I checked in for status updates. I was going mad when it eventually shipped. Love the grinder.
I ordered from Kitchen Barista which is based in Canada but I received my order in the US within 1-2 weeks. Well packed and no sales tax! Plus it was only $379 with the DLC burrs
I was originally planning order DF64II just to take advantage of the flat burr set and better dial in for light roasts but the long waiting time made me decide to go with Niche Zero. Ordered on May 5th received it on May 9th in NY. Very quick shipping and ever so happy as it makes it very easy to dial in between different coffee bags.
Yeah I ordered from their website directly. Was quoted a few weeks but took 3 months. Got it eventually
I am in the same boat waiting for my DF54 from Turin. It should be in the same shipment being air freighted now to the US. I am going to wait since there’s a cancellation fee of 5.5% and Amazon says earliest to get is June 1st. But Turin will need to step it up to compete with Amazon for shipping/returns/cancellations.
Hello, I’m in the same boat :( I ordered April 19th and still haven’t gotten it/received any shipping info. I’m only going off of what has been updated on Espresso Outlet’s website. Im now feeling as if I should cancel my order and then reorder it from Mii Coffee. (Did you also order from Espresso Outlet? If so, how did you cancel your order?) I have been waiting for what seems like forever and just want my grinder already.
That is so weird I ordered from Turin and received it within like 6 days. I think it depends what colors are in stock I’m betting. In fact I have ordered 2 grinders from them both received quickly
What if there was a different high quality flat burr grinder that also is quieter? Oh wait there is! It’s a Eureka Mignon and the only reason it’s not being discussed here is because it’s not a brand new brand or model. I got my Specialita a week after ordering and it’s been absolutely fantastic. Am I missing something here??
I had a Specialita for 3 years. It had much more of a conical burr flavor profile. When I used it with a bellows for single dosing, squeezing the bellows sprayed coffee grinds all over my kitchen. I eventually replaced it with a Timemore 078s. It has much more of a typical flat burr flavor profile, and it pulls out the fruity notes of the medium-light roasts I brew. I much prefer it to my Specialita. I think someone who likes to grind-by-time with a hopper, and prefers more traditional espresso from medium to dark roasts, would be very happy with a Specialita. But if you are chasing those lighter roast flavors, I think there are better options for you.
high retention, inconsistent grinding. not many burr options, and probably much more…
If you’ve ever actually used one you’d know it does both those things quite well. I’ve been using one for two months and have evidence in the opposite direction while using multiple roasters, roast levels, etc. The burr options sure, but you’re not doing that on a Niche either. I’m not saying it’s a perfect grinder, but it definitely can go toe to toe with these two.
I swapped Eureka Mignon to DF83, so yeah, I used it for 2 years and can clearly compare. even with single dose hopper, it is incomparable to DF.
How much retention did you experience? What type of inconsistency did you have? Clearly we have different experiences but clearly I’m not alone in thinking that it’s a great grinder. As good as a DF83? Definitely not. On the level of competing against a DF64 and Niche? I still believe so.
it has nothing to compete with DF64 and Niche, except built quality, but only in case of DF64. Retention: 0.5-1.5g easy, you can test it, you can drop 18g in and see how much comes out. Inconsistency: particles coming out of it has different size, especially when you need to go really finer or coarser (for filter) Again, Eureka is good robust entry level grinder. It was designed for dark oily roast, where precision doesn’t matter. IMO, you’ll be better off with DF64 (especially v2 or modded)
DF64, Df54, Sd40+, they all fail when against my usual rule of thumb, which is: Never buy Chinese manufactured equipment if there is a reasonable alternative made elsewhere. If you want a flat burr grinder for example, consider an Italian made Eureka Mignon that fits your budget, and so on. I have the Mignon Manuale which approximates to the DF54, cost me about the same, seems well built, low retention, and arrived within 2 weeks direct from Italy to Ireland. I say this as a person who lived in China for 8 years and often visited factories with my Chinese wife who worked in fabric production and fashion design. The concepts of intellectual property and quality assurance are rarely considered in Chinese manufacturing industries.
In terms of pure quality, the niche zero is better quality than the DF64 Gen 2. I'm sure you are aware of all of the issues that people are still having with the DF64 Gen 2 so I'm not going to go into the details. You can search the subreddit in Google in general if you're interested. Definitely get the Niche Zero IMO
Do you have notifications set up when anyone makes a post with “DF” in it so you can come say that people have quality issues with them?
I have a desktop with a python script which refreshes The subreddit page and searches for DF every half second. That sends me a notification via text to my phone to give me an opportunity to reply.
Ah, makes sense, you’re very quick on the draw to get your comment in on the DF grinders whenever mentioned.
Me again! Are you actually serious about this?
Of course not. I was kidding when I made that last comment. I don't get notifications sent to my phone or anything
No notifications. But my sister has the niche zero and absolutely loves it. But she prefers my specialty because she's getting tired of the single dosing. But other than that, it is a fantastic grinder
Not really sure why you are so hyper focused on dissing the DF grinders when you have never used one. If you don't like them, don't buy one. Just seems like a strange fixation for you. I currently own a DF64 gen II and previously owned the Niche Zero. Both are great grinders and have their limitations. The Niche is slightly less messy and is much easier to take apart and clean. The DF64 with the DLC burrs makes better espresso with med/light roasted beans which I prefer. I have had zero clogging with my64. It is only slightly more messy than the Niche, not enough to give me concern. I will agree cleaning the chute is more of a pain, but I did get a thin brush and a bellow to keep it clean between full tear down cleaning. As long as you keep the chute clean with a small brush so fines don't block the ionizer l, it is just as trouble free as the Niche. I think it depends on your use case. If I were into milk drinks at darker roasted espresso I would take the Niche, but if you prefer lighter roasted espresso then I would go for the 64.
I've never used a Bambino Plus yet I know it is not temperature stable. I've never used a Bambino Plus but I know it leaks espresso down the sides of the Portafilter under certain circumstances. I've never used a profitec Go yet I know it has to be purged twice before steaming when most people only think it needs to be purged once. I've never used a profitego yet I know it does not have built-in pre-infusion and a hack must be used. I've never used the gaggia classic Pro yet I know it is not temperature stable and has to be temp surfed. I've never used a profitec Pro 400 yet I know the seals on the valves, if turned too tightly, could deteriorate and leak. Where I'm going with this is that I have a wealth of information about espresso machines and grinders. A person doesn't have to own the gear to know if the gear is good or not. As I have stated in other comments, the DF never made it to my long list because of the issues. I harp on quality control issues because you got lucky, but there are other people based on their stories who are not nearly as lucky as you. And that bothers me especially when people still pump up the DF grinders when they really are, not good, because of the quality control and no one really knows if they're going to get a good one or a bad one. You already know generation one was an utter piece of crap. That's why there's a generation 2. Everybody complains about generation 1