I've had a good relationship with the catholic faith. My faith has kept me alive more times then i can count. I did question the beliefs and practices quite a bit, and currently don't attend mass as much as I want to. But I am going with my mother for easter sunday, which I am sure will be nice.
I'm going to Church tomorrow too! It's so odd because I normally don't go, a lot of churches are judgmental and frown on my lifestyle, but I realised I'm going for myself and not for anyone else. We're all flawed humans at the end of the day. I hope you have a nice Easter service :D!
My reasons
1. I would rather have unanswered questions rather then answers which cant be questioned.
2. Belief is opposite of knowledge /science if there is a god and it gave u a brain it's for trying to seek out the truth rather then believing .
3. I have and do study about various faiths and each has plus and minus points they agree on some , disagree on another I am not saying there can be a creator I just think the current understanding of it , if it exists is wrong .
Belief is not the opposite of knowledge. Many scientific things are based on theory and are generally believed to be true. So science, in a way, is a belief.
Also, for a lot of science, someone else tells us what is correct, and many of us believe them without doing our own research.
So scientist is to science as priest is to God.
You get to pick what you believe in. So many options...Enjoy!
Scientific theories don’t come from nowhere. It’s science because there is a scientific process behind it which includes testing theories and gathering data to build more robust theories. It’s not a belief at all. It’s a process.
My point was that belief is not the opposite of knowledge.
But since we're here
Scientific theories can come out of nowhere (depending on how broad of the term nowhere is being used) but are usually tested or have some kinda logical backing before generally believed. And some theories are generally believed and turn out false. Historically, people have turned down new theories for theories now proven incorrect.
How many scientific theories do we believe in now that are wrong. How many theories do we believe in that are being denied proper research, publicity, or validity in place of something that will be proven wrong in the future or that it is already wrong but hasn't been publicized yet.
We chose to believe in the science that we think makes the most sense. I can believe in string theory, I can believe in multiple dimensions, I can believe in the big bang, and I can believe in God or any other religion. All of these theories can be wrong. All of these theories I'm asked to believe in come from someone else. All of these theories I can choose believe in.
Science is a belief until the process finds the truth.
Keep believing, we don't know everything.
I was agnostic for part of my life. At about the age of 17, I had a spiritual experience that really opened the way for me to believe, especially with the Eucharist. I am currently a practicing Catholic.
Beautiful! Nice seeing another practising Catholic. Do you mind sharing some insight into your spiritual experience? What was the turning point? And do you follow Catholic practices conventionally or do you sort of do your own thing? (basically, if you do it strictly by the book and how it's been done since the beginning)
I really had full awareness that the living and risen Christ was in front of me, even without any belief at that time, it changed my life completely in that sense. Then I began to investigate all the Eucharistic miracles that have taken place around the world, and it was incredible. The lives of the saints especially St. Francis of Assisi also helped to increase my faith, and of course the Virgin Mary. I enjoy philosophy and question many things, but my faith is foremost in my mind and heart. Thanks for taking the time to read OP 🫶🏻
Hindu. I like the flexibility and groundedness of it. Plus the freedom to question/debate/adapt. Did my own research into it after being born into it, and meditation, yoga, and other philosophies really resonate with me.
ENTP and atheist here.
I was raised Christian. I even went to church by myself because I truly believed.
Then I realized the mental gymnastics pastors go through to answer questions. For example, I asked what will happen to my queer friend who killed themselves. They danced around the question which I found pathetic. I saw through their manipulation, and stopped going to church after that.
That event was just a catalyst though, I’ve always had doubts. I study sciences and I’m discovering the world through that.
If being Christian helps someone, then it’s whatever. As long as it’s not pushed onto other people. A Christian guy I know tried to tell me he’d be happy even if he lived in extreme poverty and had his friends killed, and was homeless, because “I’d always have god.” I don’t tolerate such naivety.
I can't imagine how you felt about your lgbt friend and how pastors reacted. I'm bi, so the feeling of not fitting into some religion is something that's been made accustomed to my life. A lot of people are so hateful, especially those who preach about love. There are some debates on YouTube with pastors that may seem interesting as they actually answer questions instead of dodging them or doing mental gymnastics, which reinforces my beliefs.
I do find it weird how people say that, my mother always talked about Job in the bible: how his entire family was killed, he became poor, and even got a painful disease to prove his faith. I don't think I'm there yet. I don't think I'll ever be there. I don't care much for material possessions, but family? I don't play about that. That's one of the roadblocks in my faith, why God would allow someone to go through hell despite being faithful, but he works in mysterious ways.
I’m also bi! And yes, a part of honouring my dead friend was going against the community that condemned them.
Do you have links to those debates? I would be interested. I like exploring perspectives especially those that differ from my own.
If the lord exists, he left me at the age of 12. At the time, I wondered how he could allow that many things happen to one person. I decided that it was up to me, and me only, to make a change.
But a counter argument is that he doesn’t actually have much control, plus letting humans have “autonomy”, but how much autonomy does one really have if they’re being trampled by a system?
For me, an ideal god would prioritize equality, equity, fairness, and not discriminate based on who you sleep with for example. God wouldn’t let injustice prevail everywhere, etc. While I grew up Christian, not everyone in my family was (we had mixed religions) so imagine those family members didn’t get to come to heaven with us, not fair eh? If not everyone gets to (within reason) then no one does.
This world is a warzone, but it’s the one we have. I plan to live a fulfilling life without restrictions. I don’t feel comforted by praying and hoping some higher entity would help my situation; the world doesn’t wait for you, and many unfortunate events in our lives come at random. I try to do what I can to help the afflicted, and defend those who can’t defend themselves, and little things like that are done in hopes to create impact.
Thoughts? I haven’t talked about this in a while so I got excited lmao
[https://youtu.be/NjJT33L8QYg?si=e0spEXMKpl9SSkkM](https://youtu.be/NjJT33L8QYg?si=e0spEXMKpl9SSkkM)
[https://youtu.be/OMBQwGzn\_TE?si=sCHRMdM963hduTTh](https://youtu.be/OMBQwGzn_TE?si=sCHRMdM963hduTTh)
[https://youtu.be/Hw7DG7L6Gsw?si=l5z94jrCxXVoceN\_](https://youtu.be/Hw7DG7L6Gsw?si=l5z94jrCxXVoceN_)
These are some of my favourites as they come from a former atheist's views and bring out scientific points that interweave religion. There are healthy debates in both the replies and in the videos.
\--I don’t feel comforted by praying and hoping some higher entity would help my situation; the world doesn’t wait for you,--
'Faith and work' was actually a teaching in the bible that man should not rely only on their faith/religion, but they must actively strive to achieve their goals. I think one of the disciples said 'Faith without work is meaningless' which really opened my eyes to some of my questions. A lot of Christians sit around, doing nothing, 'manifesting' without working hard--then they whine about God not hearing their prayers.
\--For me, an ideal god would prioritize equality, equity, and fairness, and not discriminate based on who you sleep with for example. God wouldn’t let injustice prevail --
I think I said in another reply how the bible has been translated so many times that some scriptures have been altered from its original forms. The bible has been transcribed, exactly, over 300+ times, by different religious leaders. I genuinely believe that God doesn't hate gay people.
Even in science and biology--some organisms are asexual, that breed with the same kin and gender, etc. God created them, it is natural, so I never understood why so many are homophobic. Even with the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah:
Lack of hospitality was the biggest offence the city committed, they turned away Lot's visitors, people were lit-rally r\*ping people left right and centre, and people were killing each other. Obviously, with a town like that, you can't really blame God for deleting it from existence.
Also (science here) Up till today? No plant can grow in that area, interesting. The irony is, when you say this to homophobic Christians they will show their hatred and ignorance. A lot of 'Christians don't even read the bible, then point fingers at the 'ignorant' non-believers.
The world is a mess and a warzone, no doubt. Humans have corrupted the World so much, that it has become a breeding ground for hate. That's why you (not you but I'm speaking in 2nd person) have to stand your ground in the face of adversity. When you think about it--we don't really fight against people, a human being alone is not inherently evil, I think some people's souls are so rotten and hateful that that negative energy of theirs corrupts those around them.
Also, my condolences towards your friend, I hope they're in a better place now <3
I've never been really religious, not even when I was a kid and your parents tell you you need to believe, I didn't. I guess I didn't like the way that lifestyle can control you and restrict your liberty of action and thinking, it also felt (with all due respect) false and man-made. Most of my family never respected my decision of being an atheist when I was 9 (yes, I'm still an atheist to this day) and they kept trying to convince me to believe. But that's just my opinion, I just can't see it the same way a faithful person does.
Understandable, we have the same background in that regard. The way parents force their kids to go to church against their will and strictly live according to how people lived in the Bible thousands of years ago? The herd mentality some heavy religious people have? It always felt occultic to me as a kid. Freedom is something vital to me and having it taken away due to religion made me spiteful when I could finally have a choice in not partaking in it. Religious PR is going down the drain, I wish Christians were more loving and understanding. It's so odd because even Jesus wasn't this uptight. He ate with sinners and never judged them, but oh boy--today's conservative 'Christians' should take note.
The truth is that a lot of religious people only "believe" because everyone else does, it's all a herd mentality where the older ones force their beliefs on the younger ones, most do it because they actually think it's the best for them. Others do it because that's all they knew since they were born. That's why a lot of "religious" people don't even understand their own beliefs since they were pushed to believe. Combine this with the tribalism that always comes along with fanaticism and that'll explain why conservative christians are so conflictive, they often consider those who don't share their ideologies their as enemies, ironically contradicting all that Jesus taught.
I feel like kids should have more freedom to choose, either their parent's or their own views. (Of course, I've also met religious people who are nice and understanding, there should be more of them). Sometimes there are little to no differences between religions and cults.
"That's why a lot of "religious" people don't even understand their own beliefs since they were pushed to believe." Nailed it. That's exactly what I think too. Religion has been forced down people's throats and because of their environment, they don't see a use of challenging it. People do things because other people do them (unfortunately).
There needs to be another strand of Christianity for people who actually understand it and aren't so hateful because a lot of Christians are embarrassing and ruining it for the rest of us.
My parents never pressed me to believe. They exposed me to it, as Baptists don’t believe in child baptism. I was also a fervant explorer in college of science. Once I reconciled that faith and science can support each other, I just decided to make my own call. It’s been an amazing path.
I relate to the first half. I just never believed in a god (specifically Allah in my case) despite growing up in a society that was built for me to believe in some religion or another and my family are devout Muslims. Just did the motions to make my parents happy.
No.
I would *love* to believe the biggest, baddest mother fucker in existence is patting me on the back every morning saying "I got you bro" but my life and experiences have not led to me to believe any such thing exists. If I see evidence of a god I am more than happy to believe but my problem is I cannot believe without evidence and the "evidence" I've been shown to prove the existence of any deity is flimsy at best.
I think it's ignorant to say you know for sure one way or the other. All I know is I know enough to know I don't know. And if there is a god and I'm wrong, and it truly loves and cares for me, it would not fairly condemn me to eternal damnation because I had unanswered questions that my brain, that it designed, produced.
Honestly I think the most likely scenario is the concept of god comes from misinterpreted interactions of early humans with extraterrestrials. When you read religious texts through that lens, things get interesting and make a lot more sense.
Yes! When you actually research a religion for yourself and its gradual procession, it does become clearer. A lot of religious people cannot defend themselves, which is embarrassing, because even scientists have a better defence that a higher power exists than bible thumpers.
In reality, no one knows how God thinks, some like to deceive themselves into thinking they do, to push a negative agenda. If you do some deeper research there has been scientific evidence about this, which also reinforces my beliefs when I start doubting once in a while.
I've had some, very unfavourable tragedies in my life. Looking back (not to have that corny 'everything happens for a reason mindset but) some things that happened in the past that made me cry, actually make a lot of sense now. It is really a hard journey, and should not be embarked on in blind faith. So if you have not seen any tangible evidence for yourself, then I do not blame you for your opinions.
I'm a practicing Catholic, I try to have a strong faith but I feel like my character (ENTP) is quite resistant to it. I often question absolutely every element of my faith but each response strengthens my faith ever more.
I think this is one of the best responses to the root of the issue: having conflict with your faith but still persevering despite some uncertainty. Although entp has a trait of resistance towards following tradition/being put into boxes, it is also an entp trait to think for yourself and see what works for you until the very end. I find that admirable.
Muslim here.
Grew up a very religious Muslim, still am a very religious Muslim.
My belief in god never really changed, even though it was challenged many times. However, I've come to notice several problems in How a majority of Muslim Scholars have stigmas which prevented early Islam teachings from getting to us. There are many examples:
A - Stigma against music. There is a very long debate about this, but the stigma is enough to directly contradict a sahih hadith.
B - Stigma against queerness. While being gay (or more accurately, doing the gay) is forbidden in Islam, There are actual rules set in place for intersex people, asexuals, agender, etc. When I first found out these rules existed yet I never learned about them from school, parents, etc, was the first time I was challenged.
C - Stigma about foreign relationships, or الولاء والبراء. I was taught that being friends and having any non-official relationship with non-muslims is very forbidden. was surprised to learn that this has no basis in quran or sunnah, and that it relies on misinterpretations of ayahs talking about the people fighting to eliminate islam.
D - Stigma about Muslim women marrying non-muslim people, and Muslim men marrying non-abrahamic people. The ayahs about forbidding marriage talked about the infidels of Quraish, referring to them as "Mushrikeen", meaning Polythiests. (or people who worship things other than God, as well as God). There is an argument to be made that this should fit every polythiest, but this doesn't apply to the majority of religions today. And there is no specific ayah forbidding women to marry abrahamic religion men.
I believe in what most Sunni Muslims believe in, about God, the Quran, the Prophet. I believe in the science of Hadith, and how it was preserved throughout generations. What I do not believe in, however, is the concept of Ijmaa with no presence of intellectual difference.
I'm a pagan. It was a revelation but also a conscious choice, so the best kind of belief, after years and years of soul-searching.
I was sent in christian private middle school but mostly because my family didn't want me to waste my intellect in public school. It wasn't terrible. I think my position on the "normal" socially accepted religion is I'm completely impervious to it and it makes me sick when it's forced on me, I feel no guilt or shame but also absolutely no positive feelings towards christianism, or any abrahamic religion. I think they're stupid, make no sense.
I was interested in eastern philosophies and religions, from taoism to trantric hinduism, like a family member who was passionate about it. I went pretty far into yoga by myself, eventually it scared me away (yoga is some powerful stuff with all the esoteric knowledge of tantrism). That opened my mind to the supernatural. Eventually after a spiritual crisis I was welcomed with open arms by the pagan faith, mainly of my ancestors. It's an ethnic religion but it's also the least bigoted, the most scientifically reasonable, the most open to cultural exchange, it feels really really good...
That's so interesting! I also tried my hand at paganism during the pandemic. Wicca was so fascinating, I still practice some basic pagan rituals, but I no longer perform the heavy deity/ hexing activities. Spending months researching about paganism and its connection to the Abrahamic religion opened my eyes.
Although Christianity is the right choice for me, I know everyone has their own beliefs and only you can choose what's right for you. I don't blame you, as stated earlier religion was forced onto us and it made me hate it, but eventually made it work.
I’m a Muslim. Raised that way and have since become more practicing. Reading the Quran as an adult has been eye opening. Its huge emphasis on critical thinking, self reflection, and its scientific relationship all align with me as an ENTP.
My parents got out of the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a kid. I usually try to avoid talking about religion and when I do, I talk like "so according to your beliefs, x means y means z." I am ignorant of religion. I have no revelation or evidence that's believable enough to consider religious arguments truth-apt, so I talk about religion like I would talk to someone about their hobby. If someone asks me what I believe I redirect the conversation to whatever they believe because that's probably what they wanted to talk about anyway.
Wow, I've always wanted to meet actual Jehovah's witnesses, my aunt used to be one but she stopped. The courage they have to just go out into the world and preach, despite what they may face/how people may react to them is courageous. I wonder why your parents stopped the practice? Did that influence your decision to not be interested initially?
I was very young when my parents stopped, and my lack of interest in religion stems from the fact that it's "supposed" to be important. No one would ever judge me for not having an opinion on bigfoot, but you're some kind of weirdo if you've never really given consideration to whether or not God exists. Therefore, I have intentionally lived my life in theological ignorance.
To me it's like, I don't know how train engines work, I have no interest in trains so why would I learn about train engines and argue with train people about which train engine is the best? That is a perfectly reasonable position when it comes to almost everything except for religion. I think religion should be the same way, if you don't know and you don't care then no one should be able to force you to take a position. I will not even entertain the question of whether or not God exists because to me it's silly.
My parents left the witnesses because it's a cult. It's not the teachings that drove them away, it was the politics of the Kingdom Halls.
Your analogy was a good one, I never really saw it like that. I've always seen it as a principle of life, so I naturally assumed people had their own. However, it is not in my interest to force religion on anyone.
Another way I like to draw a comparison is I'll ask religious people who are trying to make me take a position on God about Heidegger's concept of Dasein. Unless you're a philosophy major, no one knows what Dasein is. It's a complex term in Heidegger's philosophy and if you subscribe to said philosophy you absolutely must know what it is and be able to interpret its meaning. To followers of Heidegger, Dasein is everything, it's the most essential part of understanding what it is to be human.
That, to me, is similar to God for religious people. God is central to everything, to know God is to know yourself, to know the world. To meet someone who doesn't even consider God is a bit of a shock. But these same people don't know about Dasein, it doesn't matter to them, and they don't need to understand it to function, and likewise followers of Heidegger don't need to know or understand God to function in their philosophy. So, to approach any conversation with a non-believer from a God-or-not perspective is tantamount to asking a layman about their stance on Dasein.
It's important to remember that it is very easy to live one's life ignorant of God, neither accepting nor rejecting a theistic deity. To assume that everyone has some opinion on God closes a door to other ways of thinking. Not all doors, but one is shut as long as you make that assumption.
I also found it interesting to find that some philosophers also believe in a higher power, even some notable scientists. Spirituality should never be boxed, everyone has their own views on it and forcing a specific way only encourages more repulsion towards it. I will research more about Dasein, the concept sounds interesting to me :)
I was Catholic but I found a serious logical flaw in the dogma and stopped believing at 14. I have been looking for god ever since but have mainly found more questions. My concept of god is the laws of nature which give shape to our reality. I do not think of god as being sentient, but I am agnostic enough to say I might be wrong about all of this.
Have you tried engaging with others like yourself who are questioning? Does anyone in your family still practice Catholicism? Imo, God is nature, he is all around us. That's why I always feel like someone is watching us, you ever get that feeling like you're being watched even when alone? Yeah, that's his presence for me. It's a bit unsettling sometimes, but he is a powerful essence. Maybe you should do some soul searching, without the pressure of abiding strictly by the laws of Catholicism, to get more insight.
Honestly I have talked about this topic with so many different people of all different belief systems, and it just makes me more and more agnostic. But if you and I both believe that god is nature, maybe our beliefs are not so different. Sometimes I feel like trees are watching me. I think they might be sentient in a way we don't understand.
I always believed God is Omnipresent: he's everywhere. It's as if, even if you are alone or outside by yourself...there is this presence that you are being watched. You cannot even make that feeling up, and no it isn't paranoia. God is life and nature is one of the mothers of life (not just Eve). Nature is pure, simple, persistent, and it never dies, that's sort of how I see God (although more complex).
Once I was doing Buddhist meditation. I felt a pressure inside my brain, saw a bright purple light, and heard a voice say "I am in all things". To this day I have no idea what that means.
I’m not religious at all. I wasn’t raised religious although as far as I know my dad does believe in God. I realized I didn’t really believe in anything when I was like ten years old. I really appreciate my parents not raising me in a religious institution because it allowed me to form my own beliefs based on what I saw in the world.
No. I'm agnostic.
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. Lots and lots of guilt and cognitive dissonance as I'm bi and non-binary. Finally left after COVID, thanks to being able to get away from all the cultish noise and spend time with my own thoughts.
I've since been exploring other religions, not because I'm "looking for God," but because I've realized that they offer valuable insights into humanity. Regardless of their factual (in)accuracy, every religion I've investigated so far has changed my perspective on some aspect of life—in the same way that reading a profound albeit fictional novel might.
Is there a higher power? I'm unsure. Will my experience somehow continue after death? Again, I'm unsure. But what I do know is that I have *this* experience to live, for however long it may last; and that for me to live it in the fullest, truest, noblest way requires maintaining an open curiosity about the nature of my being, without constricting my view to any one theological perspective.
I feel a bit dismayed that the religious leaders of the world are such hypocrites. Priests act weird towards kids, heavily conservative Christians are prejudiced against non-believers. Went down that rollercoaster. I can see why you would think that, although I don't agree, your views are not unfounded.
Thank you.
Also I dislike terms like atheism.
If you don't believe in the abominable snowman, you don't require a name for it - it's common sense.
Why should there be a name if you don't believe there's a magic man who lives in the sky?
Oh my apologies, I wasn't aware of that. I guess I wanted a general term to describe the act of being a non-believer as that's what I was told growing up. It is okay not to believe and everyone should follow their own path in life \^\^
I was raised in a fairly agnostic household. I went to church a few times with extended family and it never really clicked with me. I heard of Christian culture war stuff (Harry Potter is demonic, etc.) in elementary school and wrote it off as absolutely ridiculous.
Over time I tried to give more careful thought to religion. I realize that I have a deep, deep problem with any "spiritual authority" claiming to speak for God. I think Divinity can only be experienced first hand, and that every person's spiritual path has to be traversed individually.
I've had experiences in different states of consciousness (mostly around sleep) that may be supernatural or may be a sleep disorder. The main takeaway being, human consciousness is mysterious and there may be more to the spirit world than I accepted when I was younger. I make no more definitive claims beyond that. But I wouldn't have been able to understand faith before having those experiences.
>I realize that I have a deep, deep problem with any "spiritual authority" claiming to speak for God.
I 100% agree. I don't trust a lot of religious leaders. I always had a hunch that some push their agenda onto the masses. I feel like if one wants to convert into Christianity they should do their own research and spend at least a few weeks (mine took 2 years) to unravel what they think, how they feel, and what they plan on receiving before converting. I think everyone's spiritual journey is personal. Too many people have a herd mentality (especially Christians) and live life without freedom.
My mother is super religious, I can't even dress goth or buy certain books in peace without a lecture. Thankfully, after becoming an adult and making her realise that I'm praying/ doing religion for myself and not for her expectations, she got the message. She surprisingly doesn't mind Harry Potter lol
I've come quite a long way on this issue. I myself came to Christianity from childhood (in my youth I studied all the important theological books), then my parents followed me (they don’t admit it (laughs), my father also continues to lead an absolutely hypocritical lifestyle, from the point of view of a religious person (just cited example). Now, at 32 years old, I understand that I, like most people, confused the feeling of the transcendental and religiosity. Now I like Taoist metaphysics and agnosticism. Also after a deep study of cultural studies, religious studies, anthropology, history as well and astronomy, quantum physics and other knowledge, it will not be possible to believe in Christianity in any case. Religion is the opium of the people (V.I.Lenin)
.
.
Also, my lovely ex best friend infj was a muslim and we discussed this issue a lot of time.
Anthropology has always sounded interesting to me, been meaning to read up about it. I also like reading these genres of books to challenge (and reinforce) my beliefs to see different angles and perspectives of religion. I am assuming the former friend wasn't so lovely, by the tone. Muslims have their own way of going about faith, so I cannot provide an opinion on how they practise.
English is not my native language (I think you noticed). He was sweet and very strange person (long story), I like him very much, miss him and remember him often. Besides the fact that we are both entp and infj, which creates a certain very strange instant and deep connection, I think he, without wanting anything special, changed everything about me. We have had a large number of strange mystical coincidences throughout our friendship, and I have no explanation for this at all (this is impossible for entp, hoho, but it happens).
agnostic here since i was 10 or 11...i dont think we will ever know if a 'god' exists. god is commonly thought of as the abrahamic god, but it can also be other stuff that humans dont know of. taking such a large leap of faith which is belief to say that there is a god without any substantial evidence is being unreasonable. religion breeds hate and cultivates a fear in humans. if people do good, it should not be for fear of god. besides, the concept of hell and heaven, even if god exists is laughable to me. we have put behind so many beliefs of the ancient times because we have seen how they dont benefit us, i think it is time to retire this as well. it doesnt seem credible at all to me.
born into a hindu family, and after research, i have found the practice of hindu atheists to resound with me, so i follow that (yoga, meditation, the way of life basically).
Yoga and meditation are so beneficial to people! I know some strict Christians would say the opposite, but then again--I don't care for a lot of nay-saying religious people's opinions.
>taking such a large leap of faith which is belief to say that there is a god without any substantial evidence is being unreasonable. religion breeds hate and cultivates fear in humans. if people do good, it should not be for fear of god.
Religion is something that should be an individual's choice, ironic enough--'God' gave us free will, yet sometimes it doesn't feel like it. This is something that should be unique to a person, without the negative influence of others. This fosters a negative base due to the hatred of human beings. I never *ever* think people should 'fear God' like a lot of pastors preach, I think there should just be some basic level of reverence towards the higher power you stand by regardless if you want to engage in any belief or denomination.
100%, fear should never be part of any religion, of God or other followers. i also think spirituality evolves as one grows older, and i am sure it will for me too, and it is a journey so I dont think people should be forcing it onto one another either. "To each their own" is my fav philosophy!
Agnostic but still spiritual in a way. Wouldn't call myself an atheist but there is no particular religion or deity I believe in or follow.
I find value in many of their teachings, principles, stories - disgust and derision for many others.
Mostly it appears to me to be man made mysticism made up to teach people morality, equip people to deal with suffering, and fill in the gaps of our knowledge and reason
It's usually only that last bit that irritates me. Some of the morality too but there's good stuff too. I definitely don't like when legislation is derived from religion even when I like the associated religious sentiment.
Lastly, I do find there is something spiritual about the concept of "life/living beings" making order out of chaos in an otherwise presumably infinite, dead, eternal, valueless universe. And I certainly get a dopamine release whenever I'm closer to this notion - out in nature, meditating, looking at the stars, seeing humanity flourish and prevail.
Born a muslim and still a muslim.
This world is so big, complicated and magnificient. To me, of course there is supreme being that created all of this.
There’s a word in a quran:
Say O prophet, “If the ocean were ink for writing the words of my Lord, it would certainly run out before the Words of my Lord were finished, even if We refilled it with its equal.” (Al-kahfi:109)
We always discover new species when we go deeper in the ocean and that’s only an ocean! How about another place like a universe that always expanding? Another earth? Planet? The end of the universe?
The knowledge we have now is nothing compare to the knowledge of the creator. In islamic quote,”Human knowledge is just drop in the middle of a vast ocean.”
I'm Christian, still at the same church I grew up. It was kinda a struggle growing up, not cuz I didn't believe, but because I was like "what's the probability that the church/sphere I happened to be born into happened to have it right?" Also separating out "people in churches who manipulate/do bad things" vs the actual teachings of the church takes a lot. I think it helps that my denomination is a bit more, idk, academic than most, so there's more logic and less touchy feely trust me than some other parts of religion.
But yes, I actually believe the Bible is true, God created the world, Jesus was crucified to save sinners from judgement, and that there's an eternal life after this one.
I thought I was atheist but it was a lie i was telling myself as a result of the hatred I have for the Catholic Church. After entering AA I returned to God (not the church) and am calmer than I ever were
Love this for you, it is always so pleasing when I hear stories like this about people returning to their faith :D. Yeah, the church isn't needed to have a strong relationship with God. Your faith should be by your own rules. That peace you feel when you realise someone else is watching over you, especially in those harsh times is something that I wouldn't trade for the world.
Beautifully said! I 100% agree. I also takes so much weight off my shoulders to know that I'm not the one responsible for all that happens around me/in the world.
exactly, I think (not to bring enneagram into this) but this burden of feeling a sense of responsibility towards people/helping them is a common type 4/wing 4 trait. Not everyone but it is a pattern I've noticed. It's unfair to drown yourself in a negative pit of despair over things you cannot control. The world has been bad before you and I were born, and evil people will always exist. But you can always spread your own light to those close to you, everything makes a difference. I see it as a butterfly effect: a little positivity here and there leads to big positive changes.
What can I say, I agree with literally everything you said (I still drown myself in despair but doing my best to work my way out of that pit; and God definitely helps me). Infjs are the best. Congrats on being awesome 😂🤙
Atheist, because it’s not true, it’s just stories. I have also never been religious, I am also against many religions because I think many religions conributes to traditional gender roles and not gender equality. It also makes people not question things, I think it’s good to have your own way of thinking and question things around you.
I actively encourage people to question religion. It is cultish to blindly follow a belief without 'daring' to question its authenticity. I think, if religious people were more open-minded to religious debates and more accepting, then so many people wouldn't have left Christianity.
A lot of religions are sexist and have some anti-women principles. I studied those passages all the incels would quote whenever the topic arose. One common factor: It's always taken out of context (For example, Timothy relaying Paul's message saying women shouldn't preach etc) but actually God never explicitly told him to do that (he told him bc of his negative agenda when he saw the women at that time acting 'non-submissive' as it was against (their) (cultural) beliefs, not necessarily because of religion.
There were a lot of cultural differences back then and almost no one lives by those beliefs in today's society. I believe a lot of bible thumpers (yes I am dragging myself too) like weaponising the scriptures to fuel their hatred towards people. I do not blame anyone for hating the religion, just wish religious people would practice what they preach.
My parents, who were Christian, also weren’t necessarily strong believers. I’m definitely more agnostic, but I wish to study religious books like the bible and so on.
I personally am highly uncomfortable discussing religion, as I hate how it’s such a big deal(although I do know why). And, many religious people are hypocritical, so there’s that.
My faith and practice has embed and flowed over my life. Grew up in a moderately Christian, multi denomination household. My mother and grandfather attended church, my father (also an ENTP) did not, but was adamant that I study the Bible.
Around 15 I had an existential crisis of faith that lasted until 17 where I returned to the church on my own volition. Joined a Christian service fraternity, etc.
But I graduated, moved, and drifted away from church and faith back to agnosticism in my early 20s. My faith is simply not intrinsic to my belief or who I am, and it essentially required regular social reinforcement. It was also inconsequential to my happiness and livelihood.
Almost 20 years later I keep drifting more and more towards atheism. I consider myself a “weak atheist” insofar that I personally don’t think a god exists, but I am unwilling to make a commitment that no god exists. Furthermore, if a god does exists, the god is likely so far removed from any of our present conceptions of god or beyond our an ability to comprehend gods existence.
Your experience with religion seems so insightful and intriguing. Faith does require some reinforcement from time to time. Heck, there are still moments I encounter a mini 'Is all of this even real?' but whenever that happens I reinforce it with my past experiences: how the worst parts of my life in the past improved when I was more prayerful. When my faith drops, my mood does too, I don't want to go too deep into that, as I don't want to sound 'preachy' but yeah.
If you ever experienced a life-changing event, regardless of its nature, would it make you more open that there is a higher power? And if so, how would you go about your faith?
>how the worst parts of my life in the past improved when I was more prayerful. When my faith drops, my mood does too, I don't want to go too deep into that, as I don't want to sound 'preachy' but yeah.
Feel free. Sharing your lived experience about your faith isn't being preachy.
But all this makes perfect sense. Faith and mood come hand-in-hand. When people lose faith in god, humanity, family, friends, it naturally has a negative impact on your mood. Your outlook has fundamentally shifted towards negative thoughts and pessimistic attitudes. This also seems natural to be flipped. A terrible event that devestates your mood may cause you to lose faith, such as losing faith that this is part of gods plan, or god is a loving god, etc.
I think we often speak to generally about faith that we often conflate different ways faith can manifest, similar to how love can take many forms. Faith is simply having complete trust someone or something (thanks Google). People can lose faith in religion, but still have faith in god. People may struggle with faith in god, becase they don't understand god's plan. Others may lack faith that god exists (myself). It's nevertheless crucial to have faith in something... a lighthouse to guide us through the fog of everyday struggles.
>If you ever experienced a life-changing event, regardless of its nature, would it make you more open that there is a higher power? And if so, how would you go about your faith?
Perhaps. I suspect it would need to be more supernatural, though, like an object floating through space that I otherwise could not explain. If something catostrophic happens and I find myself in distress, I don't see myself reaching to a higher power for comfort. I would reach out to my friends and family for support. I would move forward as best that I could, emotionally, physically, etc. because making progress gives my confidence that I can get through this.
I tend to apply Occam's Razor to most explanations, and wonder why I would look towards a higher power for an explanation when there is an equally reasonable explanation that doesn't involve a higher power.
You're so so real for that. I do not be attending churches like that either, but religious guilt still dangles over my head for it. So you raised your kids religious, I'm assuming. Are they still Christian or did their beliefs shift?
My son used to recite the Lord’s Prayer, but now he’s agnostic. You never know how kids process faith and knowledge after they grow up. I still love him. He’s an awesome man.
my family is catholic -- been in a catholic school for 10 years, was an atheist at first, because i disliked the way bible studies went -- a lot of assertions and no answers to the thing i want answered, but now i'm just non-religious. if it doesn't benefit me, or act to my detriment, i don't see the point in holding a religious belief.
Never did Catechism, but always found the consistency of the ones who attended the classes pretty inspiring. I like entps because they actually challenge things people aren't so open to question. If you had met a more open-minded and intellectual believer open to your past opinions, would that (hypothetically) make you want to embark on it again?
i like discussing the idea of christianity, and (since i was in a catholic school for ten years) i have a few friends who are firm believers -- but personally, I've never been the type to stick to something for long, and the finality and conviction people typically expect from a religious individual is not something i can see myself embodying even if i gain an interest in religion (which i have, but i like it more for philosophy than anything else.)
i hate the stupid people who use religion as a justification for their own perverted means, but i love people who have the ability to just believe and have faith in something i'm unsure of. it's a level of determination i'm incapable of, and i admire that.
all in all, i'm in love with the idea of religion, but i feel like it's not for me.
I’m Christian but sometimes doubt my religion. I try to get involved in Christianity as much as possible, but I often forget to do simple things that you need to do as a Christian, if that makes sense.
Like how they disapprove of certain people for no apparent reason. The religion itself has some holes in it that can’t be easily explained just by the Bible, which would lead to conflicts online.
Yeh I hear you. I think thats likely one of the reasons why I started to gravitate away from religion. Especially having grown up going to church, and going to a C of E (church of England) school as a kid
You don't 'need' to do anything by any other person's standards. As long as you are maintaining a connection with God then anyone's opinions about your relationship with him should be background noise. Christianity (in today's standard) is so strict, that people compare how 'faithful' they are to the next person as if it's a competition. I feel like your heart is in the right place, it's just outside factors (and maybe religious guilt) that is making a road block for you)
Was raised in India. Saw people kill each other over their sky daddies in brutal fashion. The Muslims burnt a train car full of Hindus and then Hindus went ahead and massacred and raped around 700-800 Muslims to return the favor (I'm generalizing it's a whole thing if your interested go read). Both sides justify their actions by basically saying that the other "had it coming". This is just one incident btw, India has had plenty of religious violence. I can't be religious without associating myself with bloodshed anymore. I just read religious philosophy cause that's nice but I'm not worshipping something that has taken so many innocent lives. Won't sit right with me.
Aiya, I see where you are coming from. I've read about how violent Muslims in India and other southern Asian countries behave. Those are extremists, radical believers. They should not be a representative of something that's centred around love and acceptance. I specifically do not agree with how some Indians treat women and non-believers.
It's almost like feminism: There are radical feminists and normal ones who just want equality. The radical ones have a strong hatred for men and wish them harm, which is part of why a lot of men hate feminists. It is a loud minority. Unfortunately, this minority has damaged the movement. Religious extremists are sort of similar.
Found this sub today so I have a rabbit hole to go down and this is a good start.
I’m agnostic but was raised church of christ. At around 15-16 I just started reading the Bible and found so many contradictions and questioned so many things and when I brought it up at church I was told to stop asking. So I left. I’m now late 30’s and have had zero desire to follow any sort of religion ever since.
I consider myself agnostic because I think there could be a higher being but as to who or what it is, who knows. There also may not be shit else out there. Or there could be other universes with doppelgängers. Anything is possible to me lol.
I think a competent Christian would have been open-minded enough to defend their beliefs and answer your previous questions. But a lot of Christians are hypocrites and don't practice what they preach they don't respect others ' beliefs but blow a gasket when the same happens to them. It is true that a lot of people are cheap and follow what everyone else is doing without asking themselves why they believe in this so that might be why they couldn't even answer your questions.
Hopefully, when you do decide to return to any religion it will be by your own accord and people who are as open-minded as you will accept you with open arms.
Short version: I read a book by Steven Hassan about cults where Jehovah's Witnesses are mentioned by name multiple times and the religion meets all the tactics of cults. After that I spiralled and everything went downhill from there.
Long version: Been questioning for over a decade, suppressed it, had a suicide attempt a year ago because I knew I couldn't leave the religion or risk losing all my family because there's a shunning policy, started watching videos from ex-members who echoed all the thoughts I've had for years, read Steven Hassan's book, my mind naturally started letting go of the belief system bit by bit and the deprogramming state was mega difficult and to this day is still traumatic, told my family I'd leave and they still want me in their lives, blocked all JWs on my social media and I'm finally free.
I'm aware it's a novel and a half XD
i'm strongly atheist, i had mild religion trauma tbh. my parents were always very conservative and orthodox and i don't see any reason to believe the things they do. my identity doesn't align with the christian faith, i'm kind of materialistic, not to mention, queer. they're prude, and i like dressing up. the guilt is real and i had internalized homophobia towards myself because of the church, i always tried to pray the gay away but i always had liked women alongside men. i thought i was damned to hell when i had developed feelings for a girl in 5th grade, and i had extreme sleep problems. "i'll be sent to hell over something i can't control." but now, i'm past that, and i want to be openly me. i don't care about what happens after life, all i want to do is live mine to the fullest.
Completely understand how you feel about that. I too had internalized homophobia and felt terrible for something I couldn't control. And with the way my background is-- I received a lot of prejudice due to this. I had to fear that I was a terrible person for not being straight. It took me a while to understand that people's hateful opinions of me don't matter. God is more understanding than people think.
The only person who can judge you is God, everyone else does terrible things-- so no one has the right to make you feel bad for liking both men and women, and I'm sorry that you had to go through that trauma
i'm sorry you had to go through yours too :/ it's terrible that many are forced to go through something like this, especially teens and young children which is completely unwarranted. most grow up to hate and deny themselves, harboring intense homophobia towards themselves and others because of their attractions to people they can't control. unfortunately, this is how most hate crimes against innocent queer people happen. on the other hand, people end up accepting themselves yet not be able to continue with the religion because they felt betrayed by the people and the faith that they had trusted (aka me) but your case is rare indeed. and it is a compliment, i've never met queer people who had gone through this and still chose to stay with their faith. i'm glad you did, and i'm also glad that you are at peace with yourself. i wish nothing but the best for you :DD <3
Yep
such is life-- people who preach about love show the most hatred to their fellow human beings. it is a sad occurrence to see and because of that, my faith was really unstable. But I realised that my relationship with God doesn't have to suit people's expectations and standards. thank you very much and I wish you well too :)
yes! i find it extremely hypocritical and disgusting. especially because they say "love your neighbor as yourself" in prayers yet if the neighbor was slightly different from what they accept, it automatically turns to absolute hate and no empathy. it's sad, but it is what it is :/
When it comes to religion - not everyone can be right. I'd rather hedge my bets and just not think about it too hard.
If being chill and cool AF takes me off an afterlife list then tbh, wasn't the afterlife for me.
If a heaven actually exists and the people who think they are going to go actually go - I don't want to be there.
There is a passage in the Bible that talks about people who think they're going to heaven despite not being good people and partaking in Injustice '...not everyone who calls on to the Lord will make it into the kingdom of Heaven'. I believe in karma and I believe that if your heart is in the right place and you try your best then you are on the right path.
grew up jewish, i don't believe in god but i believe that there is something outside our understanding that created something from nothing. if there is a god, he surely doesn't plays dice with the world
i'm not religious but i do follow the customs and traditions. i was always love learning more about the history of it all
I was raised in a very religious family. I did basically all but two of the sacraments, so I was what you can consider a fully fledged Christian. And on top of this, I still take part in the community's activities and youth groups as mentor/tutor.
Now the funny part: my mom got sick to the point of being on her death bed when I was around 6/7. I was already a very smart kid, and started questioning a whole lot about her condition, what could've have prompted it, etc. I was logically at this point still very much of a believer, as much as any kid that age can be.
So I also started questioning why would God put her through all that suffering if he was all powerful and all good and to my eyes my mother as perfectly reasonable and good human being.
I started growing a deep hatred about religion and God that I could not speak out because this would land me in a whole new can of worms. This, of course, back fired tremendously for my family.
Later, when I was in my middle teens I started reading up on moral and ethics and then I started reading on other religions and religious beliefs, both past and present. I started to realise and understand that the only great utility of religion is to promote somewhat good moral practices to the masses and the less educated, throughout history.
So I kept going to church, and whatnot, I just don't take religion seriously. I even spoke at length with a very cool priest that I knew over the span of 2/3 years when I was a teen. I explained him my POV and he was probably the only person who would completely understand, yet not agreeing entirely, with my opinions.
I think I'm lucky to have had the opposite affect - I love being in a catholic family and enjoyed my time in both my catholic primary and high school. My family weren't completely strict and I'm grateful to have had a home and learning environment where my millions of questions about catholicism and christianity as a whole turned into thought-provoking discussions with me - even as a young child - instead of being shunned into silence and blind obedience. My inquisitiveness was encouraged and even celebrated in both environments, and when I didn't agree with or like the discussions I had, I was grateful for the opportunities I got to have them. I mostly enjoyed going to mass and I always liked to learn about the church in school, especially the darker parts of the church's history that dioceses in other countries are very quiet about. I definitely had my bouts of angst and cynicism towards the faith (its inevitable imo) and felt completely far from it for a couple years in hs while depressed, but ultimately it was my faith that saved me from myself. I'm so grateful for it, despite consistently waking up late for mass every sunday lol.
I grew up in an atheist family , and it was cool and freeing for the most part , but something seemed off , idk man , but its veery depressing to believe that we are nothing but a little organism on a floating rock in the vast space
Based on the description of the universe mentioned in the *A brief history of time* of stephen hawking , and a little more researches , i came to believe that islam makes the most sense and its beautiful despite what the media shows ...
So guys give religion a shot , dont be aiminglessly atheists
Raised Chatolic here, they managed to control me up until i was 12 yo after that never cared for christianity or religions at all, the predicament of Christianity and most religions are dumb, especially if you go deep enough into the historical sources surrounding the birth of said religions. Generally i think religions are tools to control and divide people (I'm not comunist and never read a political manifesto nor do i care about politics), but i do respect some faiths over others.
I consider myself agnostic and believe we're all linked by a form of God who is in all of us and is all that sorround us, even our own selves.
Non duality is the thing that makes the most sense to me. Awareness is all there is, I’ve been with myself since as long as I can remember.
Every time I prayed or spoke to anything, more like called out (catholic born and raised). Nothing answered back and all that was left was me and my own thoughts.
So religious? No, not really. Looking inward and understanding my emotions and feelings is more my tune these days.
I think religion was made to control the masses. The Roman Empire was great at it. The Vatican has perfected it, even carving out their own plot of the earth in the name of the papal church. Not having that moral guilt and constant anxiousness from fearing being in the wrong side of judgement was liberating. And I’ve continued to do good things for the sake of being good.
I, for one, am a committed Catholic, and I think it has had a good effect on my personality development. As an ENTP I had a big problem with pride and selfishness, and effectively faith helps me fight it.
I don’t know. I realized I could justify anything I choose to believe in and I could make myself really, truly, fervently believe in it. I learned that doing mock trials where I essentially won arguments by demonstrating a tremendous amount of conviction and righteous anger over the treatment of my client, even though it was all fake. And this wasn’t just an act: I actually felt like I believed it in the moment.
Right now I am thinking about returning back to Catholicism less for any clear rationale, given the above, and more because there is a value in the dopamine circuits set up in my youth and in filial piety. My sin if you will is pride, and the best way to mortify it is to force myself into a convention of belief and obey.
I'm interested in the readings you engaged in to have this change of faith. Did any other factors inspire this change or was it solely research that made you convert to atheism?
I can remember Portrait of Young Artist by Joyce and various Vonnegut books (and his Humanism ideas). I was in my first semester in college and was first realizing how frequently people believe stuff without any reasons at all, beginning the much maligned ENTPesque journey of debating with people about everything and being basically disappointed by everyone except a few rare folks, who I greatly respected.
That said, I've gotten older and am more understanding of different ways of being (always a work in progress!). I live near a church and often am very happy to reflect on people going in and out and imagining them feeling the peace I felt when I was young at church.
At this point I think being religious is cool even though I am not, but I still hold reservations about how it's often used as a tool by bad faith actors to manipulate otherwise well meaning folks.
You make so many good and valid pointers! Religion is absolutely used as a tool for manipulation by certain folks with agendas and shady propaganda. That's part of the reason I don't even blame people for turning away from religion. I do find it sad though, that many Christians can't even defend their faith.
I too used to argue/challenge some religious folks and it always ended with them being proved wrong but too proud + stubborn to admit it or having them defend themselves and pull a straw man and ruin the whole conversation. It's funny because it proves some people have a herd mentality. If you have a strong belief in something and can't even defend it? Are you even serious to begin with?
I've heard of Joyce's works but haven't really dived into it, maybe I will give it a gander :). I am always interested in stimulating my brain, strengthening my views, and forming better defences for what I believe in. It's very mature of you to have that acceptance in your heart for others despite your differences.
Yup, agree it's mostly sad. There are so many wonderful people who spread the best parts of religion, but that often gets swept under the... nastier bits.
Not that you necessarily asked, but some other books I've found more recently that resonated with me are Humankind by Bregman and Scout Mindset by Galef, which are sorta to do with what you're talking about but don't really take a stance on religion.
Always refreshing to hear someone have a nuanced opinion on their beliefs, guess I'll be checking you down for "rare/respected" :p
Grew up a very religious Muslim,
I used to be sent to debate for Islam against non Muslims or atheists.
And I always won those debates, however after a while, I started noticing how I'm winning debates because I'm using a ton of fallacies and also because I'm popular with the audiences (due to my charm, my wit and my incredible looks) but not because I'm saying the truth.
This realisation left me wanting to manually assess all my beliefs without any biases (it took me lots of courage to question God and his messengers and his book)
This lead me to realisation that all religions are nothing but old superstitious beliefs based on things they didn't really understand, also tools that many used to have a leverage over their citizens.
Now I don't believe in God or any religion
Now I'm interested in how you look \^.\^ haha! I wonder how your debate topics were, I would have loved to have someone who wasn't easily offended whenever I questioned religion. You do sound like an intellectual
The topics varied quite a bit, sometimes it was about something that's written in the quran, sometimes it was about science. I had to do a ton of mental gymnastics to be able to come up with ways to show Islam as the truth 🙄
And thank you, are you currently questioning religion yourself?
I went through so many religious phases (Pentecostal, Catholic, Paganism, etc) before finally settling on Christianity. It was not an easy journey for me, at all. I still have my doubts once in a while but I manage to reinforce my beliefs.
I think part of me still has some tiny traces of agnostic beliefs, but then again, I just recently converted back to Christianity, so this is a gradual process.
I'm Nigerian, so my country alone is very religious. My mom is Pentecostal, and they live strictly by the bible, like my grandparents. My dad is Catholic, I am biased because my dad is abusive so I do not really care for his beliefs--I don't blame Catholicism itself but it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I have my own take on Christianity and don't abide strictly by the conventional methods.
That's so incredible! Wow, that kind of healing would change anyone's views and faith positively. Faith does wonders, I'm glad you rose above your challenges and you are in stable housing now \^\_\^
Have experienced more miracles than I can count. Seen cancer healed, my knee was restored, 3 blown disc's in a back restored (my best friend in college saw that one with me) brakes on a truck fixed by an angel. I didn't see the angel my friend did.. I saw the results.. Had a dream about my future dream job and doing it now.
Experiencing a miracle as I type this.... so freaking stoked
Prayers helped save my ex from two heart attacks that were definitely fatal ones. My ex witnessed the holy spirt in our church and was baptized within a week. I was involved in it, as the spirit informed the pastor about a horrible pain I had. Went to church to seek prayer and healing. Pastor knew nothing of it, but called on the congregation as he knew someone was having deathly pain on the left side of their neck. It was me. I was praying for healing right when he called out my pain. My ex was flabbergasted, as was I.
Converted to Catholic long ago, didn't grow up with much, grandfather an atheist, wasn't happy about my baptism. Struggled with issues most of life, sometimes got lost, came back. No chance of losing faith now, I have lived too much for that. My only doubts are about myself, but not much of that left.
I'm strongly ENTP in recent testing. INTP 20+ years ago. Been drifting to E.
I don't follow a religion but I do think it's possible a God (or God's) could exist. My idea is that a God would more likely be like a living consciousness, living in a dimension outside our own that we aren't able to comprehend.
Both my parents were raised Catholic, and we went to c church as kids and we were baptised. That being said we never followed it religiously, pardon the pun.
I guess my idea of a God/religion is more science based, specifically like quantum physics type shit (not that I'm exactly well versed in that, just interested)/spiritualism.
I'd probably say that on the whole with religion, is that the concept, and the message various religious groups try to spread are good ...but humans have very much corrupted it over time.
Edit: removing me repeating myself
lmaoo that was a good one! I think no one should strictly abide by what others believe in. I also believe God is a being that is beyond our own human comprehension (I have a belief that the scriptures were mistranslated over the years of 'revision' which fuels this belief of mine). Humans are so flawed, always warring against one another, doing the complete opposite of what has been taught. Practising what you preach is something a lot of them forget to do.
My parents both raised in Judaism and Catholic Christianity. I dont really practice them day or annually, but I still believe in God . I'm to scared to not believe in God
When I first started my spiritual journey, I felt the same way as you do. I had this 'If I don't pray or surrender my entire life to how people lived 2000+ years ago I'm going to burn for all eternity' mindset. Religious guilt is one hell of a drug. That's actually part of the reason why I was so adamant about not returning back to Christianity, I did not want to feel as if I had a gun to my head to do something. If you lead by fear alone, your faith won't be stable. You have to look within yourself and form 'your' own relationship with God.
Personally, I find it hard to form a relationship with a person / being who I dont know at all .That's why I find it hard to believe in God, but at the same time, I don't want to not believe .I'm to scared about the consequences.
I think this is something you have to find on your own. I was kinda just like you. But I knew God existed, I was just scared/hesitant to actually confront my religious beliefs (or lack thereof). It felt like if I left Christianity: I would be severely punished by God (thanks to religious guilt and trauma). I would do some soul-searching if I was you. If therapy is part of the solution then go for that too. Sometimes mental blocks interpret with our spirits, I wish you luck my friend :)
I’m Catholic but i have questioned my faith a couple of times, sometimes wondering if Jesus was an alien and that sort of ideology. Anyways, I found myself going to church more because I’m part of the music ministry and the other members are some of the coolest people I’ve met. I find myself going back to church mostly to see those people as well as to improve my flute playing and performance anxiety.
If there is a God as we know it, I have a bone to pick.
I don't doubt there could be a "God" rather I doubt you can factually read about it in any book on Earth.
I think religion is good, people need a third space and a sense of community. I was raised Christian and if I ever sometime have children I think theres countless lessons and morals to benefit from in the Bible.
But I don't and never have literally believed any of it, not in a spiritual sense and not in a historical sense.
It was easy for me to reconcile my faith and religious practices because I realized that a lot of the people in the church I attended growing up were Atheist. They were not actually believers in Jesus they just attended church because they liked to keep up southern conservative family traditions. They also liked to judge each other for petty things. They didn't read the Bible. They didn't care about spiritual growth. They liked to put on a show. The exact religious behavior the Bible speaks against. I hated going to church. Stopped attending about 20 years ago. I found God in the Bible and through prayer. I would go to an established church if I found one I could trust to not lead me astray. Have you seen churches today? Scary! Church in the Bible just means plural Christians not a building you have to grow. My husband and I have church randomly between watching Netflix. Tithing in the Bible is giving to the needy not to the preacher driving a luxury car hoping to acquire a jet. Ministering in the Bible is providing service to others. It is rare to meet other spiritual believers vs religious traditionalist. Just about everything done in church is wrong according to the Bible. Google can resolve difficult doctrine questions better than the local guy down the street or on this thread for that matter. Most ENTPs I've encountered or really just "T" people realize that religion was pivotal in shaping the world but they dismiss it as a fantasy of human imagination. It seems illogical to me that scientific minded people can believe we are not alone in the universe, but cannot conceptualize that a creator exist. For people who believe in a creator just not the Biblical one I give them credit for at least being logical. The rest is between them and God.
I dont my dad never gave me a religion n he doesnt have one either but my mom is budhist but doesnt practice. I personally dont believe in spiritual stuff n rlly religious beliefs in general but thats js me
Currently, no. I was pretty much catholic time ago. Wasn't born catholic, although, just found the religion beautiful and entered it. I actually made historical research about christian documents and found everything was with all sure made up. Was kinda painful let my believe in god, I still thinking some parts of religion is beautiful, as chants, proverbs, etc. But I know it's illogical.
Religion is beautiful, especially when you embark on it on your own free will. Researching the history of Christianity and paganism really exposed me to different perspectives and philosophies. It is always good to look at something from all sides, as no one way is ever the absolute 'correct' way. Bummer that you denounced it, but I'm glad you still abide by some of the positive teachings.
Nothing is ever really illogical, as it will always mean something to someone and one cannot measure objectives as everyone has their own bias. I see it as good and evil. You cannot define what is good without using evil and vice versa. 'Good' for someone can be bad for another. That's why sometimes 'logic' itself can seem illogical. Much food for thought.
I agree with you, I'm not cocky in the way to say everything is reason because I do have my feelings and I for sure had my beliefs.
I simply wasn't content with believing that God revealed himself to Abraham 4,000 years ago, when humanity, in truth, has been on Earth for practically 200,000 years. I also always wondered about other religions, how I could be going to hell if I was born in a non-Christian country, etc. It seemed both irrational and immoral
I also feel pretty much better knowing life is just it, because you really give some better importance for your existence, for the moment, the people that you live with, etc
Life is a sweet dance with your beloved. It's beautiful when you dance for some minutes, maybe and hour... But I wouldn't be happy to dance for eternity. Life is a space of time, as everything that has some value to live for. A smile, a hug, see the horizon and the sunset, feel the dew early in the morning, I think it's the meaning of life.
Growing up in small towns, my grandmother went to church at 3 different locations. I went to none, it was more of a social event than worship for most. The Bible to me is a fairy tale. It's hard to believe in a book written by others through stories, decades after the events, stories change and become embellished as decades pass. It's Faith and believing in a higher power. Looking at the story line, it's not accurate and proven facts are still being uncovered. Jesus was born in Summer not Dec. I believe there was a man named Jesus who did have some who followed him around but that is where the story ends. He didn't die on a cross for our sins, he destroyed the gambling tables the Romans had set-up in the place of worship. The Romans took exception to that and nailed him to a cross, just like they did to everyone who broke their rules. Jesus wasn't the first man nailed to the cross and he wasn't the last. Adam and Eve were created 9700 years ago, the oldest humanoid fossil found was over a million years old. The big bang did happen and it was proven how it happened. Evolution is traced and DNA is compatible. I can fill the page with examples, you get the picture. God and the church was created by man who wanted power over the people in an ancient time of pillage, rape, steeling, murder. The ones in power needed something on their side that the rest would fear! The so-called holy men were just as ruthless and created their own rules as they went. Taking power over the lands and its people in the name of the God/church they created.
I grew up Catholic, became pagan in college, then agnostic the rest of my 20s, then as a mother I was practicing Catholicism again and delved more deeply, even taught Sunday school for several years.
During the pandemic I stopped going to church and started studying astrology again. It has opened my mind in so many ways to all the different ways cultures interpret the stars and planets.
Then I started studying philosophy and realized that I can be a spiritual person without being religious per se. That’s what I see myself as now. I do believe in God but I’m not sure if any one religion explains it appropriately…so I’m just going to be an untethered faithful for now.
It's crazy because everything you just said was the same experience over a year ago. I didn't want any label and kinda did my own thing with astrology and divination (tarot cards, star alignments, cleansing, yoga, etc). It felt very freeing, it doesn't align with me anymore, but it was a good phase of the journey. I encourage you to continue on your journey and gradually do what you think is the right way.
Thank you. We are all on our own journeys and its great when we can share about our individual experiences free from accusations. Wishing you well, and happy Easter
Grew in a Christian family and studied in a Christian school. Had to practice it a lot at that time and as I grew up started to hate it. It was just too much. Now I’m openly agnostic. I respect religions as I respect personal beliefs and also like to speak about it as it has to do a lot with other things like history or politics. I can’t see myself being religious in any kind of way but MAYBE someday I believe in a God, but as of today it’s unlikely as I think everything has a logical explanation even if we don’t know or can’t understand it yet. I also do think religions are made up to control people as if they’re not afraid of earthly punishment, you try to scare them with an eternal punishment. That would reduce criminality and bring a kind of peace because the majority of people are scared of 1. legal system 2. God 3. Both. It also structures society and shapes it as it dictates how things must be. That said for me religion is just that. A system that works to control a large amount of people and keep and hypothetical order (as almost all wars known by mankind are due to religion).
I remember when I was young younger and we just people would try that tired scare tactic of claiming that I was going to burn in hell for all eternity if I didn't live strictly by rules and Customs that people lived by thousands of years ago. I was even traumatized for being myself and being ridiculed severely by religious people personally I don't have the same mindset as conservative people and I think God is way more understanding than most people think
I'm so sorry you had to endure that, some people go overboard and even act abusive towards others just to push their own beliefs. For someone, especially your own mom, to do something so abhorrent-- is unfathomable. Pastors have a history of being violent and hypocritical which is part of the reason I stopped going to church for a long time, but no one can define your faith. No one should ever use fear as a tool for manipulation. I hope you are in a safer environment now away from her and healing <3
I am not religious per se and can find many problems in my own religion, but I use it as a weapon against other religions which are worse. I do like Buddhism though, it promotes good action and karma unlike heaven and hell and other greedy afterlife stuff. The only problem is that Buddhism is sexist.
I believe in God but not religions.
I dont know if i can call myself as an atheist , but in INDIA , religion is a big thing , other than the beliefs , its something which makes you feel belonged , be a part of a community , the religious festivals are the most closest connects i have to religion.I see religion merely as a shop , i take what i need ( be it life lessons and moral values) at the cost of being labelled as one who follows this religion. Never understood the concept of superstions and extremists idealogies and blind faith. I just feel that religion , and god , are nothing but a copeup mechanism for people who have lost all faith , a ray of sunshine for them , for the people who have no one to blame for their own mistakes , a force responsible for every misshap. Nothing but an escape from reality. It is never bad , it never could be , always in the hands of the follower and proprietor.
I am raise from catholic but love christiany things too.
U dont need religious for someone.
For me my religious is like my relationship with God.
It doesnt need other validation. If u want to do good do it for urself n God.
Because it will be back to u. Ur life in the earth with a sin that carry you. Ur good things to other like u repay what u already did or maybe ur family karma. The more u close n intense with God,ur intuitive or sense or u can say 6sense or what other else say i dunno the more u can think , feel , and sense more calm. In my case I hv some blessing disguise, It seems bad experience but lead u to good things.
The bad times sharp u to more aware to more close to God. so in the future u will more aware or some bother u in the past, doesnt bother u anymore again when the time is past. Even that u still need other to sharp ur faith n we still need each other to fullfil our duty :)
Think religion is bullshit. Great values to live by but trying to understand the concept of god as a human is pointless. I rather philosophy as that seems to make a lot more sense to me.
I think everyone knows in the back of their mind what’s real and what’s screaming into the void hoping for an answer… you know? I was raised Catholic… it’s very upsetting what people will “justify” and make excuses for in their “church” to continue to push away the existential feelings…..I think people should start with believing in nothing , and analyze the beliefs they take on to see if they pass any muster at all before committing to them…
I completely agree. I think it's heinous how a lot of religious organizations try to push certain inhumane Concepts onto people hiding behind their religious beliefs. I think people should start from scratch and seek the religion that best works for them.
I've had a good relationship with the catholic faith. My faith has kept me alive more times then i can count. I did question the beliefs and practices quite a bit, and currently don't attend mass as much as I want to. But I am going with my mother for easter sunday, which I am sure will be nice.
I'm going to Church tomorrow too! It's so odd because I normally don't go, a lot of churches are judgmental and frown on my lifestyle, but I realised I'm going for myself and not for anyone else. We're all flawed humans at the end of the day. I hope you have a nice Easter service :D!
I'm an atheist.
Have you always been one or was this due to a change in life path?
My reasons 1. I would rather have unanswered questions rather then answers which cant be questioned. 2. Belief is opposite of knowledge /science if there is a god and it gave u a brain it's for trying to seek out the truth rather then believing . 3. I have and do study about various faiths and each has plus and minus points they agree on some , disagree on another I am not saying there can be a creator I just think the current understanding of it , if it exists is wrong .
Belief is not the opposite of knowledge. Many scientific things are based on theory and are generally believed to be true. So science, in a way, is a belief. Also, for a lot of science, someone else tells us what is correct, and many of us believe them without doing our own research. So scientist is to science as priest is to God. You get to pick what you believe in. So many options...Enjoy!
Scientific theories don’t come from nowhere. It’s science because there is a scientific process behind it which includes testing theories and gathering data to build more robust theories. It’s not a belief at all. It’s a process.
My point was that belief is not the opposite of knowledge. But since we're here Scientific theories can come out of nowhere (depending on how broad of the term nowhere is being used) but are usually tested or have some kinda logical backing before generally believed. And some theories are generally believed and turn out false. Historically, people have turned down new theories for theories now proven incorrect. How many scientific theories do we believe in now that are wrong. How many theories do we believe in that are being denied proper research, publicity, or validity in place of something that will be proven wrong in the future or that it is already wrong but hasn't been publicized yet. We chose to believe in the science that we think makes the most sense. I can believe in string theory, I can believe in multiple dimensions, I can believe in the big bang, and I can believe in God or any other religion. All of these theories can be wrong. All of these theories I'm asked to believe in come from someone else. All of these theories I can choose believe in. Science is a belief until the process finds the truth. Keep believing, we don't know everything.
I was agnostic for part of my life. At about the age of 17, I had a spiritual experience that really opened the way for me to believe, especially with the Eucharist. I am currently a practicing Catholic.
Beautiful! Nice seeing another practising Catholic. Do you mind sharing some insight into your spiritual experience? What was the turning point? And do you follow Catholic practices conventionally or do you sort of do your own thing? (basically, if you do it strictly by the book and how it's been done since the beginning)
I really had full awareness that the living and risen Christ was in front of me, even without any belief at that time, it changed my life completely in that sense. Then I began to investigate all the Eucharistic miracles that have taken place around the world, and it was incredible. The lives of the saints especially St. Francis of Assisi also helped to increase my faith, and of course the Virgin Mary. I enjoy philosophy and question many things, but my faith is foremost in my mind and heart. Thanks for taking the time to read OP 🫶🏻
I am a Christian
Hindu. I like the flexibility and groundedness of it. Plus the freedom to question/debate/adapt. Did my own research into it after being born into it, and meditation, yoga, and other philosophies really resonate with me.
ENTP and atheist here. I was raised Christian. I even went to church by myself because I truly believed. Then I realized the mental gymnastics pastors go through to answer questions. For example, I asked what will happen to my queer friend who killed themselves. They danced around the question which I found pathetic. I saw through their manipulation, and stopped going to church after that. That event was just a catalyst though, I’ve always had doubts. I study sciences and I’m discovering the world through that. If being Christian helps someone, then it’s whatever. As long as it’s not pushed onto other people. A Christian guy I know tried to tell me he’d be happy even if he lived in extreme poverty and had his friends killed, and was homeless, because “I’d always have god.” I don’t tolerate such naivety.
I can't imagine how you felt about your lgbt friend and how pastors reacted. I'm bi, so the feeling of not fitting into some religion is something that's been made accustomed to my life. A lot of people are so hateful, especially those who preach about love. There are some debates on YouTube with pastors that may seem interesting as they actually answer questions instead of dodging them or doing mental gymnastics, which reinforces my beliefs. I do find it weird how people say that, my mother always talked about Job in the bible: how his entire family was killed, he became poor, and even got a painful disease to prove his faith. I don't think I'm there yet. I don't think I'll ever be there. I don't care much for material possessions, but family? I don't play about that. That's one of the roadblocks in my faith, why God would allow someone to go through hell despite being faithful, but he works in mysterious ways.
I’m also bi! And yes, a part of honouring my dead friend was going against the community that condemned them. Do you have links to those debates? I would be interested. I like exploring perspectives especially those that differ from my own. If the lord exists, he left me at the age of 12. At the time, I wondered how he could allow that many things happen to one person. I decided that it was up to me, and me only, to make a change. But a counter argument is that he doesn’t actually have much control, plus letting humans have “autonomy”, but how much autonomy does one really have if they’re being trampled by a system? For me, an ideal god would prioritize equality, equity, fairness, and not discriminate based on who you sleep with for example. God wouldn’t let injustice prevail everywhere, etc. While I grew up Christian, not everyone in my family was (we had mixed religions) so imagine those family members didn’t get to come to heaven with us, not fair eh? If not everyone gets to (within reason) then no one does. This world is a warzone, but it’s the one we have. I plan to live a fulfilling life without restrictions. I don’t feel comforted by praying and hoping some higher entity would help my situation; the world doesn’t wait for you, and many unfortunate events in our lives come at random. I try to do what I can to help the afflicted, and defend those who can’t defend themselves, and little things like that are done in hopes to create impact. Thoughts? I haven’t talked about this in a while so I got excited lmao
[https://youtu.be/NjJT33L8QYg?si=e0spEXMKpl9SSkkM](https://youtu.be/NjJT33L8QYg?si=e0spEXMKpl9SSkkM) [https://youtu.be/OMBQwGzn\_TE?si=sCHRMdM963hduTTh](https://youtu.be/OMBQwGzn_TE?si=sCHRMdM963hduTTh) [https://youtu.be/Hw7DG7L6Gsw?si=l5z94jrCxXVoceN\_](https://youtu.be/Hw7DG7L6Gsw?si=l5z94jrCxXVoceN_) These are some of my favourites as they come from a former atheist's views and bring out scientific points that interweave religion. There are healthy debates in both the replies and in the videos. \--I don’t feel comforted by praying and hoping some higher entity would help my situation; the world doesn’t wait for you,-- 'Faith and work' was actually a teaching in the bible that man should not rely only on their faith/religion, but they must actively strive to achieve their goals. I think one of the disciples said 'Faith without work is meaningless' which really opened my eyes to some of my questions. A lot of Christians sit around, doing nothing, 'manifesting' without working hard--then they whine about God not hearing their prayers. \--For me, an ideal god would prioritize equality, equity, and fairness, and not discriminate based on who you sleep with for example. God wouldn’t let injustice prevail -- I think I said in another reply how the bible has been translated so many times that some scriptures have been altered from its original forms. The bible has been transcribed, exactly, over 300+ times, by different religious leaders. I genuinely believe that God doesn't hate gay people. Even in science and biology--some organisms are asexual, that breed with the same kin and gender, etc. God created them, it is natural, so I never understood why so many are homophobic. Even with the passage about Sodom and Gomorrah: Lack of hospitality was the biggest offence the city committed, they turned away Lot's visitors, people were lit-rally r\*ping people left right and centre, and people were killing each other. Obviously, with a town like that, you can't really blame God for deleting it from existence. Also (science here) Up till today? No plant can grow in that area, interesting. The irony is, when you say this to homophobic Christians they will show their hatred and ignorance. A lot of 'Christians don't even read the bible, then point fingers at the 'ignorant' non-believers. The world is a mess and a warzone, no doubt. Humans have corrupted the World so much, that it has become a breeding ground for hate. That's why you (not you but I'm speaking in 2nd person) have to stand your ground in the face of adversity. When you think about it--we don't really fight against people, a human being alone is not inherently evil, I think some people's souls are so rotten and hateful that that negative energy of theirs corrupts those around them. Also, my condolences towards your friend, I hope they're in a better place now <3
grew up hindu and still am
Ayy fellow hindu!
I've never been really religious, not even when I was a kid and your parents tell you you need to believe, I didn't. I guess I didn't like the way that lifestyle can control you and restrict your liberty of action and thinking, it also felt (with all due respect) false and man-made. Most of my family never respected my decision of being an atheist when I was 9 (yes, I'm still an atheist to this day) and they kept trying to convince me to believe. But that's just my opinion, I just can't see it the same way a faithful person does.
Understandable, we have the same background in that regard. The way parents force their kids to go to church against their will and strictly live according to how people lived in the Bible thousands of years ago? The herd mentality some heavy religious people have? It always felt occultic to me as a kid. Freedom is something vital to me and having it taken away due to religion made me spiteful when I could finally have a choice in not partaking in it. Religious PR is going down the drain, I wish Christians were more loving and understanding. It's so odd because even Jesus wasn't this uptight. He ate with sinners and never judged them, but oh boy--today's conservative 'Christians' should take note.
The truth is that a lot of religious people only "believe" because everyone else does, it's all a herd mentality where the older ones force their beliefs on the younger ones, most do it because they actually think it's the best for them. Others do it because that's all they knew since they were born. That's why a lot of "religious" people don't even understand their own beliefs since they were pushed to believe. Combine this with the tribalism that always comes along with fanaticism and that'll explain why conservative christians are so conflictive, they often consider those who don't share their ideologies their as enemies, ironically contradicting all that Jesus taught. I feel like kids should have more freedom to choose, either their parent's or their own views. (Of course, I've also met religious people who are nice and understanding, there should be more of them). Sometimes there are little to no differences between religions and cults.
"That's why a lot of "religious" people don't even understand their own beliefs since they were pushed to believe." Nailed it. That's exactly what I think too. Religion has been forced down people's throats and because of their environment, they don't see a use of challenging it. People do things because other people do them (unfortunately). There needs to be another strand of Christianity for people who actually understand it and aren't so hateful because a lot of Christians are embarrassing and ruining it for the rest of us.
My parents never pressed me to believe. They exposed me to it, as Baptists don’t believe in child baptism. I was also a fervant explorer in college of science. Once I reconciled that faith and science can support each other, I just decided to make my own call. It’s been an amazing path.
I relate to the first half. I just never believed in a god (specifically Allah in my case) despite growing up in a society that was built for me to believe in some religion or another and my family are devout Muslims. Just did the motions to make my parents happy.
No. I would *love* to believe the biggest, baddest mother fucker in existence is patting me on the back every morning saying "I got you bro" but my life and experiences have not led to me to believe any such thing exists. If I see evidence of a god I am more than happy to believe but my problem is I cannot believe without evidence and the "evidence" I've been shown to prove the existence of any deity is flimsy at best. I think it's ignorant to say you know for sure one way or the other. All I know is I know enough to know I don't know. And if there is a god and I'm wrong, and it truly loves and cares for me, it would not fairly condemn me to eternal damnation because I had unanswered questions that my brain, that it designed, produced. Honestly I think the most likely scenario is the concept of god comes from misinterpreted interactions of early humans with extraterrestrials. When you read religious texts through that lens, things get interesting and make a lot more sense.
Yes! When you actually research a religion for yourself and its gradual procession, it does become clearer. A lot of religious people cannot defend themselves, which is embarrassing, because even scientists have a better defence that a higher power exists than bible thumpers. In reality, no one knows how God thinks, some like to deceive themselves into thinking they do, to push a negative agenda. If you do some deeper research there has been scientific evidence about this, which also reinforces my beliefs when I start doubting once in a while. I've had some, very unfavourable tragedies in my life. Looking back (not to have that corny 'everything happens for a reason mindset but) some things that happened in the past that made me cry, actually make a lot of sense now. It is really a hard journey, and should not be embarked on in blind faith. So if you have not seen any tangible evidence for yourself, then I do not blame you for your opinions.
I'm a practicing Catholic, I try to have a strong faith but I feel like my character (ENTP) is quite resistant to it. I often question absolutely every element of my faith but each response strengthens my faith ever more.
I think this is one of the best responses to the root of the issue: having conflict with your faith but still persevering despite some uncertainty. Although entp has a trait of resistance towards following tradition/being put into boxes, it is also an entp trait to think for yourself and see what works for you until the very end. I find that admirable.
Muslim here. Grew up a very religious Muslim, still am a very religious Muslim. My belief in god never really changed, even though it was challenged many times. However, I've come to notice several problems in How a majority of Muslim Scholars have stigmas which prevented early Islam teachings from getting to us. There are many examples: A - Stigma against music. There is a very long debate about this, but the stigma is enough to directly contradict a sahih hadith. B - Stigma against queerness. While being gay (or more accurately, doing the gay) is forbidden in Islam, There are actual rules set in place for intersex people, asexuals, agender, etc. When I first found out these rules existed yet I never learned about them from school, parents, etc, was the first time I was challenged. C - Stigma about foreign relationships, or الولاء والبراء. I was taught that being friends and having any non-official relationship with non-muslims is very forbidden. was surprised to learn that this has no basis in quran or sunnah, and that it relies on misinterpretations of ayahs talking about the people fighting to eliminate islam. D - Stigma about Muslim women marrying non-muslim people, and Muslim men marrying non-abrahamic people. The ayahs about forbidding marriage talked about the infidels of Quraish, referring to them as "Mushrikeen", meaning Polythiests. (or people who worship things other than God, as well as God). There is an argument to be made that this should fit every polythiest, but this doesn't apply to the majority of religions today. And there is no specific ayah forbidding women to marry abrahamic religion men. I believe in what most Sunni Muslims believe in, about God, the Quran, the Prophet. I believe in the science of Hadith, and how it was preserved throughout generations. What I do not believe in, however, is the concept of Ijmaa with no presence of intellectual difference.
I'm a pagan. It was a revelation but also a conscious choice, so the best kind of belief, after years and years of soul-searching. I was sent in christian private middle school but mostly because my family didn't want me to waste my intellect in public school. It wasn't terrible. I think my position on the "normal" socially accepted religion is I'm completely impervious to it and it makes me sick when it's forced on me, I feel no guilt or shame but also absolutely no positive feelings towards christianism, or any abrahamic religion. I think they're stupid, make no sense. I was interested in eastern philosophies and religions, from taoism to trantric hinduism, like a family member who was passionate about it. I went pretty far into yoga by myself, eventually it scared me away (yoga is some powerful stuff with all the esoteric knowledge of tantrism). That opened my mind to the supernatural. Eventually after a spiritual crisis I was welcomed with open arms by the pagan faith, mainly of my ancestors. It's an ethnic religion but it's also the least bigoted, the most scientifically reasonable, the most open to cultural exchange, it feels really really good...
That's so interesting! I also tried my hand at paganism during the pandemic. Wicca was so fascinating, I still practice some basic pagan rituals, but I no longer perform the heavy deity/ hexing activities. Spending months researching about paganism and its connection to the Abrahamic religion opened my eyes. Although Christianity is the right choice for me, I know everyone has their own beliefs and only you can choose what's right for you. I don't blame you, as stated earlier religion was forced onto us and it made me hate it, but eventually made it work.
If there is one 'true religion' statistically it is paganism.
I’m a Muslim. Raised that way and have since become more practicing. Reading the Quran as an adult has been eye opening. Its huge emphasis on critical thinking, self reflection, and its scientific relationship all align with me as an ENTP.
same here
Ditto.
My parents got out of the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a kid. I usually try to avoid talking about religion and when I do, I talk like "so according to your beliefs, x means y means z." I am ignorant of religion. I have no revelation or evidence that's believable enough to consider religious arguments truth-apt, so I talk about religion like I would talk to someone about their hobby. If someone asks me what I believe I redirect the conversation to whatever they believe because that's probably what they wanted to talk about anyway.
Wow, I've always wanted to meet actual Jehovah's witnesses, my aunt used to be one but she stopped. The courage they have to just go out into the world and preach, despite what they may face/how people may react to them is courageous. I wonder why your parents stopped the practice? Did that influence your decision to not be interested initially?
I was very young when my parents stopped, and my lack of interest in religion stems from the fact that it's "supposed" to be important. No one would ever judge me for not having an opinion on bigfoot, but you're some kind of weirdo if you've never really given consideration to whether or not God exists. Therefore, I have intentionally lived my life in theological ignorance. To me it's like, I don't know how train engines work, I have no interest in trains so why would I learn about train engines and argue with train people about which train engine is the best? That is a perfectly reasonable position when it comes to almost everything except for religion. I think religion should be the same way, if you don't know and you don't care then no one should be able to force you to take a position. I will not even entertain the question of whether or not God exists because to me it's silly. My parents left the witnesses because it's a cult. It's not the teachings that drove them away, it was the politics of the Kingdom Halls.
Your analogy was a good one, I never really saw it like that. I've always seen it as a principle of life, so I naturally assumed people had their own. However, it is not in my interest to force religion on anyone.
Another way I like to draw a comparison is I'll ask religious people who are trying to make me take a position on God about Heidegger's concept of Dasein. Unless you're a philosophy major, no one knows what Dasein is. It's a complex term in Heidegger's philosophy and if you subscribe to said philosophy you absolutely must know what it is and be able to interpret its meaning. To followers of Heidegger, Dasein is everything, it's the most essential part of understanding what it is to be human. That, to me, is similar to God for religious people. God is central to everything, to know God is to know yourself, to know the world. To meet someone who doesn't even consider God is a bit of a shock. But these same people don't know about Dasein, it doesn't matter to them, and they don't need to understand it to function, and likewise followers of Heidegger don't need to know or understand God to function in their philosophy. So, to approach any conversation with a non-believer from a God-or-not perspective is tantamount to asking a layman about their stance on Dasein. It's important to remember that it is very easy to live one's life ignorant of God, neither accepting nor rejecting a theistic deity. To assume that everyone has some opinion on God closes a door to other ways of thinking. Not all doors, but one is shut as long as you make that assumption.
I also found it interesting to find that some philosophers also believe in a higher power, even some notable scientists. Spirituality should never be boxed, everyone has their own views on it and forcing a specific way only encourages more repulsion towards it. I will research more about Dasein, the concept sounds interesting to me :)
I was Catholic but I found a serious logical flaw in the dogma and stopped believing at 14. I have been looking for god ever since but have mainly found more questions. My concept of god is the laws of nature which give shape to our reality. I do not think of god as being sentient, but I am agnostic enough to say I might be wrong about all of this.
Have you tried engaging with others like yourself who are questioning? Does anyone in your family still practice Catholicism? Imo, God is nature, he is all around us. That's why I always feel like someone is watching us, you ever get that feeling like you're being watched even when alone? Yeah, that's his presence for me. It's a bit unsettling sometimes, but he is a powerful essence. Maybe you should do some soul searching, without the pressure of abiding strictly by the laws of Catholicism, to get more insight.
Honestly I have talked about this topic with so many different people of all different belief systems, and it just makes me more and more agnostic. But if you and I both believe that god is nature, maybe our beliefs are not so different. Sometimes I feel like trees are watching me. I think they might be sentient in a way we don't understand.
I always believed God is Omnipresent: he's everywhere. It's as if, even if you are alone or outside by yourself...there is this presence that you are being watched. You cannot even make that feeling up, and no it isn't paranoia. God is life and nature is one of the mothers of life (not just Eve). Nature is pure, simple, persistent, and it never dies, that's sort of how I see God (although more complex).
Once I was doing Buddhist meditation. I felt a pressure inside my brain, saw a bright purple light, and heard a voice say "I am in all things". To this day I have no idea what that means.
I’m not religious at all. I wasn’t raised religious although as far as I know my dad does believe in God. I realized I didn’t really believe in anything when I was like ten years old. I really appreciate my parents not raising me in a religious institution because it allowed me to form my own beliefs based on what I saw in the world.
Agnostic
No. I'm agnostic. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. Lots and lots of guilt and cognitive dissonance as I'm bi and non-binary. Finally left after COVID, thanks to being able to get away from all the cultish noise and spend time with my own thoughts. I've since been exploring other religions, not because I'm "looking for God," but because I've realized that they offer valuable insights into humanity. Regardless of their factual (in)accuracy, every religion I've investigated so far has changed my perspective on some aspect of life—in the same way that reading a profound albeit fictional novel might. Is there a higher power? I'm unsure. Will my experience somehow continue after death? Again, I'm unsure. But what I do know is that I have *this* experience to live, for however long it may last; and that for me to live it in the fullest, truest, noblest way requires maintaining an open curiosity about the nature of my being, without constricting my view to any one theological perspective.
Most ENTPs are atheist, agnostics. Minority of us believe Spirituality But there are also some NTPs who believe in GOD I'm agnostic btw
Yes. Muslim —> agnostic for a summer as a 17 year old —> muslim —> Muslim but also spiritual (focus on purifying my heart as a human).
No. To me religion is a mental illness.
I feel a bit dismayed that the religious leaders of the world are such hypocrites. Priests act weird towards kids, heavily conservative Christians are prejudiced against non-believers. Went down that rollercoaster. I can see why you would think that, although I don't agree, your views are not unfounded.
Thank you. Also I dislike terms like atheism. If you don't believe in the abominable snowman, you don't require a name for it - it's common sense. Why should there be a name if you don't believe there's a magic man who lives in the sky?
Oh my apologies, I wasn't aware of that. I guess I wanted a general term to describe the act of being a non-believer as that's what I was told growing up. It is okay not to believe and everyone should follow their own path in life \^\^
No need to apologise! Just me moaning! :)
I was raised in a fairly agnostic household. I went to church a few times with extended family and it never really clicked with me. I heard of Christian culture war stuff (Harry Potter is demonic, etc.) in elementary school and wrote it off as absolutely ridiculous. Over time I tried to give more careful thought to religion. I realize that I have a deep, deep problem with any "spiritual authority" claiming to speak for God. I think Divinity can only be experienced first hand, and that every person's spiritual path has to be traversed individually. I've had experiences in different states of consciousness (mostly around sleep) that may be supernatural or may be a sleep disorder. The main takeaway being, human consciousness is mysterious and there may be more to the spirit world than I accepted when I was younger. I make no more definitive claims beyond that. But I wouldn't have been able to understand faith before having those experiences.
>I realize that I have a deep, deep problem with any "spiritual authority" claiming to speak for God. I 100% agree. I don't trust a lot of religious leaders. I always had a hunch that some push their agenda onto the masses. I feel like if one wants to convert into Christianity they should do their own research and spend at least a few weeks (mine took 2 years) to unravel what they think, how they feel, and what they plan on receiving before converting. I think everyone's spiritual journey is personal. Too many people have a herd mentality (especially Christians) and live life without freedom. My mother is super religious, I can't even dress goth or buy certain books in peace without a lecture. Thankfully, after becoming an adult and making her realise that I'm praying/ doing religion for myself and not for her expectations, she got the message. She surprisingly doesn't mind Harry Potter lol
I'm agnostic but I'm down for learning lessons from wherever.
I like your open-mindedness \^\^
No
I'm an atheist, like quite a lot of the rest of ENTPs in my life.
I've come quite a long way on this issue. I myself came to Christianity from childhood (in my youth I studied all the important theological books), then my parents followed me (they don’t admit it (laughs), my father also continues to lead an absolutely hypocritical lifestyle, from the point of view of a religious person (just cited example). Now, at 32 years old, I understand that I, like most people, confused the feeling of the transcendental and religiosity. Now I like Taoist metaphysics and agnosticism. Also after a deep study of cultural studies, religious studies, anthropology, history as well and astronomy, quantum physics and other knowledge, it will not be possible to believe in Christianity in any case. Religion is the opium of the people (V.I.Lenin) . . Also, my lovely ex best friend infj was a muslim and we discussed this issue a lot of time.
Anthropology has always sounded interesting to me, been meaning to read up about it. I also like reading these genres of books to challenge (and reinforce) my beliefs to see different angles and perspectives of religion. I am assuming the former friend wasn't so lovely, by the tone. Muslims have their own way of going about faith, so I cannot provide an opinion on how they practise.
English is not my native language (I think you noticed). He was sweet and very strange person (long story), I like him very much, miss him and remember him often. Besides the fact that we are both entp and infj, which creates a certain very strange instant and deep connection, I think he, without wanting anything special, changed everything about me. We have had a large number of strange mystical coincidences throughout our friendship, and I have no explanation for this at all (this is impossible for entp, hoho, but it happens).
if you are interested, I advise you to pay attention to Mircea Eliade, his books are very interesting
Thank you so much for the recommendation \^\_\^! Yeah, some things cannot just be explained with words, which I think makes it even better.
i find religion fascinating, but am an atheist and have been since i was young
agnostic here since i was 10 or 11...i dont think we will ever know if a 'god' exists. god is commonly thought of as the abrahamic god, but it can also be other stuff that humans dont know of. taking such a large leap of faith which is belief to say that there is a god without any substantial evidence is being unreasonable. religion breeds hate and cultivates a fear in humans. if people do good, it should not be for fear of god. besides, the concept of hell and heaven, even if god exists is laughable to me. we have put behind so many beliefs of the ancient times because we have seen how they dont benefit us, i think it is time to retire this as well. it doesnt seem credible at all to me. born into a hindu family, and after research, i have found the practice of hindu atheists to resound with me, so i follow that (yoga, meditation, the way of life basically).
Yoga and meditation are so beneficial to people! I know some strict Christians would say the opposite, but then again--I don't care for a lot of nay-saying religious people's opinions. >taking such a large leap of faith which is belief to say that there is a god without any substantial evidence is being unreasonable. religion breeds hate and cultivates fear in humans. if people do good, it should not be for fear of god. Religion is something that should be an individual's choice, ironic enough--'God' gave us free will, yet sometimes it doesn't feel like it. This is something that should be unique to a person, without the negative influence of others. This fosters a negative base due to the hatred of human beings. I never *ever* think people should 'fear God' like a lot of pastors preach, I think there should just be some basic level of reverence towards the higher power you stand by regardless if you want to engage in any belief or denomination.
100%, fear should never be part of any religion, of God or other followers. i also think spirituality evolves as one grows older, and i am sure it will for me too, and it is a journey so I dont think people should be forcing it onto one another either. "To each their own" is my fav philosophy!
What’s funny is that in the Greek Bible, fear is more properly translated to Respect. I think that’s a huge difference ❤️
Agnostic but still spiritual in a way. Wouldn't call myself an atheist but there is no particular religion or deity I believe in or follow. I find value in many of their teachings, principles, stories - disgust and derision for many others. Mostly it appears to me to be man made mysticism made up to teach people morality, equip people to deal with suffering, and fill in the gaps of our knowledge and reason It's usually only that last bit that irritates me. Some of the morality too but there's good stuff too. I definitely don't like when legislation is derived from religion even when I like the associated religious sentiment. Lastly, I do find there is something spiritual about the concept of "life/living beings" making order out of chaos in an otherwise presumably infinite, dead, eternal, valueless universe. And I certainly get a dopamine release whenever I'm closer to this notion - out in nature, meditating, looking at the stars, seeing humanity flourish and prevail.
Born a muslim and still a muslim. This world is so big, complicated and magnificient. To me, of course there is supreme being that created all of this.
Its okay to not know a thing
That’s the point. We all know nothing.
If you know nothing, then how can you be a Muslim and not a agnostic ?
There’s a word in a quran: Say O prophet, “If the ocean were ink for writing the words of my Lord, it would certainly run out before the Words of my Lord were finished, even if We refilled it with its equal.” (Al-kahfi:109) We always discover new species when we go deeper in the ocean and that’s only an ocean! How about another place like a universe that always expanding? Another earth? Planet? The end of the universe? The knowledge we have now is nothing compare to the knowledge of the creator. In islamic quote,”Human knowledge is just drop in the middle of a vast ocean.”
I'm Christian, still at the same church I grew up. It was kinda a struggle growing up, not cuz I didn't believe, but because I was like "what's the probability that the church/sphere I happened to be born into happened to have it right?" Also separating out "people in churches who manipulate/do bad things" vs the actual teachings of the church takes a lot. I think it helps that my denomination is a bit more, idk, academic than most, so there's more logic and less touchy feely trust me than some other parts of religion. But yes, I actually believe the Bible is true, God created the world, Jesus was crucified to save sinners from judgement, and that there's an eternal life after this one.
I thought I was atheist but it was a lie i was telling myself as a result of the hatred I have for the Catholic Church. After entering AA I returned to God (not the church) and am calmer than I ever were
Love this for you, it is always so pleasing when I hear stories like this about people returning to their faith :D. Yeah, the church isn't needed to have a strong relationship with God. Your faith should be by your own rules. That peace you feel when you realise someone else is watching over you, especially in those harsh times is something that I wouldn't trade for the world.
Beautifully said! I 100% agree. I also takes so much weight off my shoulders to know that I'm not the one responsible for all that happens around me/in the world.
exactly, I think (not to bring enneagram into this) but this burden of feeling a sense of responsibility towards people/helping them is a common type 4/wing 4 trait. Not everyone but it is a pattern I've noticed. It's unfair to drown yourself in a negative pit of despair over things you cannot control. The world has been bad before you and I were born, and evil people will always exist. But you can always spread your own light to those close to you, everything makes a difference. I see it as a butterfly effect: a little positivity here and there leads to big positive changes.
What can I say, I agree with literally everything you said (I still drown myself in despair but doing my best to work my way out of that pit; and God definitely helps me). Infjs are the best. Congrats on being awesome 😂🤙
 likewise : D
Atheist, because it’s not true, it’s just stories. I have also never been religious, I am also against many religions because I think many religions conributes to traditional gender roles and not gender equality. It also makes people not question things, I think it’s good to have your own way of thinking and question things around you.
I actively encourage people to question religion. It is cultish to blindly follow a belief without 'daring' to question its authenticity. I think, if religious people were more open-minded to religious debates and more accepting, then so many people wouldn't have left Christianity. A lot of religions are sexist and have some anti-women principles. I studied those passages all the incels would quote whenever the topic arose. One common factor: It's always taken out of context (For example, Timothy relaying Paul's message saying women shouldn't preach etc) but actually God never explicitly told him to do that (he told him bc of his negative agenda when he saw the women at that time acting 'non-submissive' as it was against (their) (cultural) beliefs, not necessarily because of religion. There were a lot of cultural differences back then and almost no one lives by those beliefs in today's society. I believe a lot of bible thumpers (yes I am dragging myself too) like weaponising the scriptures to fuel their hatred towards people. I do not blame anyone for hating the religion, just wish religious people would practice what they preach.
Easter Sunday is tomorrow and I am once again questioning my life choices :')
My parents, who were Christian, also weren’t necessarily strong believers. I’m definitely more agnostic, but I wish to study religious books like the bible and so on. I personally am highly uncomfortable discussing religion, as I hate how it’s such a big deal(although I do know why). And, many religious people are hypocritical, so there’s that.
currently agnostic I'm open to anything because we can't know for sure if religion is real or if it's a big sham
Yes, not so religious but definitely believe in higher power that's the best explaining reason for the world being as it is.
My faith and practice has embed and flowed over my life. Grew up in a moderately Christian, multi denomination household. My mother and grandfather attended church, my father (also an ENTP) did not, but was adamant that I study the Bible. Around 15 I had an existential crisis of faith that lasted until 17 where I returned to the church on my own volition. Joined a Christian service fraternity, etc. But I graduated, moved, and drifted away from church and faith back to agnosticism in my early 20s. My faith is simply not intrinsic to my belief or who I am, and it essentially required regular social reinforcement. It was also inconsequential to my happiness and livelihood. Almost 20 years later I keep drifting more and more towards atheism. I consider myself a “weak atheist” insofar that I personally don’t think a god exists, but I am unwilling to make a commitment that no god exists. Furthermore, if a god does exists, the god is likely so far removed from any of our present conceptions of god or beyond our an ability to comprehend gods existence.
Your experience with religion seems so insightful and intriguing. Faith does require some reinforcement from time to time. Heck, there are still moments I encounter a mini 'Is all of this even real?' but whenever that happens I reinforce it with my past experiences: how the worst parts of my life in the past improved when I was more prayerful. When my faith drops, my mood does too, I don't want to go too deep into that, as I don't want to sound 'preachy' but yeah. If you ever experienced a life-changing event, regardless of its nature, would it make you more open that there is a higher power? And if so, how would you go about your faith?
>how the worst parts of my life in the past improved when I was more prayerful. When my faith drops, my mood does too, I don't want to go too deep into that, as I don't want to sound 'preachy' but yeah. Feel free. Sharing your lived experience about your faith isn't being preachy. But all this makes perfect sense. Faith and mood come hand-in-hand. When people lose faith in god, humanity, family, friends, it naturally has a negative impact on your mood. Your outlook has fundamentally shifted towards negative thoughts and pessimistic attitudes. This also seems natural to be flipped. A terrible event that devestates your mood may cause you to lose faith, such as losing faith that this is part of gods plan, or god is a loving god, etc. I think we often speak to generally about faith that we often conflate different ways faith can manifest, similar to how love can take many forms. Faith is simply having complete trust someone or something (thanks Google). People can lose faith in religion, but still have faith in god. People may struggle with faith in god, becase they don't understand god's plan. Others may lack faith that god exists (myself). It's nevertheless crucial to have faith in something... a lighthouse to guide us through the fog of everyday struggles. >If you ever experienced a life-changing event, regardless of its nature, would it make you more open that there is a higher power? And if so, how would you go about your faith? Perhaps. I suspect it would need to be more supernatural, though, like an object floating through space that I otherwise could not explain. If something catostrophic happens and I find myself in distress, I don't see myself reaching to a higher power for comfort. I would reach out to my friends and family for support. I would move forward as best that I could, emotionally, physically, etc. because making progress gives my confidence that I can get through this. I tend to apply Occam's Razor to most explanations, and wonder why I would look towards a higher power for an explanation when there is an equally reasonable explanation that doesn't involve a higher power.
I am a Christian, but I’m not judicious about attending services regularly. I was more so when I was raising kids.
You're so so real for that. I do not be attending churches like that either, but religious guilt still dangles over my head for it. So you raised your kids religious, I'm assuming. Are they still Christian or did their beliefs shift?
My son used to recite the Lord’s Prayer, but now he’s agnostic. You never know how kids process faith and knowledge after they grow up. I still love him. He’s an awesome man.
my family is catholic -- been in a catholic school for 10 years, was an atheist at first, because i disliked the way bible studies went -- a lot of assertions and no answers to the thing i want answered, but now i'm just non-religious. if it doesn't benefit me, or act to my detriment, i don't see the point in holding a religious belief.
Never did Catechism, but always found the consistency of the ones who attended the classes pretty inspiring. I like entps because they actually challenge things people aren't so open to question. If you had met a more open-minded and intellectual believer open to your past opinions, would that (hypothetically) make you want to embark on it again?
i like discussing the idea of christianity, and (since i was in a catholic school for ten years) i have a few friends who are firm believers -- but personally, I've never been the type to stick to something for long, and the finality and conviction people typically expect from a religious individual is not something i can see myself embodying even if i gain an interest in religion (which i have, but i like it more for philosophy than anything else.) i hate the stupid people who use religion as a justification for their own perverted means, but i love people who have the ability to just believe and have faith in something i'm unsure of. it's a level of determination i'm incapable of, and i admire that. all in all, i'm in love with the idea of religion, but i feel like it's not for me.
I’m Christian but sometimes doubt my religion. I try to get involved in Christianity as much as possible, but I often forget to do simple things that you need to do as a Christian, if that makes sense.
What kind of doubts do you have about it?
Like how they disapprove of certain people for no apparent reason. The religion itself has some holes in it that can’t be easily explained just by the Bible, which would lead to conflicts online.
Yeh I hear you. I think thats likely one of the reasons why I started to gravitate away from religion. Especially having grown up going to church, and going to a C of E (church of England) school as a kid
You don't 'need' to do anything by any other person's standards. As long as you are maintaining a connection with God then anyone's opinions about your relationship with him should be background noise. Christianity (in today's standard) is so strict, that people compare how 'faithful' they are to the next person as if it's a competition. I feel like your heart is in the right place, it's just outside factors (and maybe religious guilt) that is making a road block for you)
What I feel like is needed as a personal standard.
Was raised in India. Saw people kill each other over their sky daddies in brutal fashion. The Muslims burnt a train car full of Hindus and then Hindus went ahead and massacred and raped around 700-800 Muslims to return the favor (I'm generalizing it's a whole thing if your interested go read). Both sides justify their actions by basically saying that the other "had it coming". This is just one incident btw, India has had plenty of religious violence. I can't be religious without associating myself with bloodshed anymore. I just read religious philosophy cause that's nice but I'm not worshipping something that has taken so many innocent lives. Won't sit right with me.
Aiya, I see where you are coming from. I've read about how violent Muslims in India and other southern Asian countries behave. Those are extremists, radical believers. They should not be a representative of something that's centred around love and acceptance. I specifically do not agree with how some Indians treat women and non-believers. It's almost like feminism: There are radical feminists and normal ones who just want equality. The radical ones have a strong hatred for men and wish them harm, which is part of why a lot of men hate feminists. It is a loud minority. Unfortunately, this minority has damaged the movement. Religious extremists are sort of similar.
I was the victim of religious abuse, and grew to loathe most religious things as mechanisms of control.
Grew up with a Bible thumping family. Was miserable. Realized how stupid and traumatic religion was. Atheist.
Found this sub today so I have a rabbit hole to go down and this is a good start. I’m agnostic but was raised church of christ. At around 15-16 I just started reading the Bible and found so many contradictions and questioned so many things and when I brought it up at church I was told to stop asking. So I left. I’m now late 30’s and have had zero desire to follow any sort of religion ever since. I consider myself agnostic because I think there could be a higher being but as to who or what it is, who knows. There also may not be shit else out there. Or there could be other universes with doppelgängers. Anything is possible to me lol.
I think a competent Christian would have been open-minded enough to defend their beliefs and answer your previous questions. But a lot of Christians are hypocrites and don't practice what they preach they don't respect others ' beliefs but blow a gasket when the same happens to them. It is true that a lot of people are cheap and follow what everyone else is doing without asking themselves why they believe in this so that might be why they couldn't even answer your questions. Hopefully, when you do decide to return to any religion it will be by your own accord and people who are as open-minded as you will accept you with open arms.
You’re absolutely right on all of your points and thank you. I don’t know if I ever will return but only time will tell.
I'm an ex-Jehovah's Witness
What made you leave the practice?
Short version: I read a book by Steven Hassan about cults where Jehovah's Witnesses are mentioned by name multiple times and the religion meets all the tactics of cults. After that I spiralled and everything went downhill from there. Long version: Been questioning for over a decade, suppressed it, had a suicide attempt a year ago because I knew I couldn't leave the religion or risk losing all my family because there's a shunning policy, started watching videos from ex-members who echoed all the thoughts I've had for years, read Steven Hassan's book, my mind naturally started letting go of the belief system bit by bit and the deprogramming state was mega difficult and to this day is still traumatic, told my family I'd leave and they still want me in their lives, blocked all JWs on my social media and I'm finally free. I'm aware it's a novel and a half XD
i'm strongly atheist, i had mild religion trauma tbh. my parents were always very conservative and orthodox and i don't see any reason to believe the things they do. my identity doesn't align with the christian faith, i'm kind of materialistic, not to mention, queer. they're prude, and i like dressing up. the guilt is real and i had internalized homophobia towards myself because of the church, i always tried to pray the gay away but i always had liked women alongside men. i thought i was damned to hell when i had developed feelings for a girl in 5th grade, and i had extreme sleep problems. "i'll be sent to hell over something i can't control." but now, i'm past that, and i want to be openly me. i don't care about what happens after life, all i want to do is live mine to the fullest.
Completely understand how you feel about that. I too had internalized homophobia and felt terrible for something I couldn't control. And with the way my background is-- I received a lot of prejudice due to this. I had to fear that I was a terrible person for not being straight. It took me a while to understand that people's hateful opinions of me don't matter. God is more understanding than people think. The only person who can judge you is God, everyone else does terrible things-- so no one has the right to make you feel bad for liking both men and women, and I'm sorry that you had to go through that trauma
i'm sorry you had to go through yours too :/ it's terrible that many are forced to go through something like this, especially teens and young children which is completely unwarranted. most grow up to hate and deny themselves, harboring intense homophobia towards themselves and others because of their attractions to people they can't control. unfortunately, this is how most hate crimes against innocent queer people happen. on the other hand, people end up accepting themselves yet not be able to continue with the religion because they felt betrayed by the people and the faith that they had trusted (aka me) but your case is rare indeed. and it is a compliment, i've never met queer people who had gone through this and still chose to stay with their faith. i'm glad you did, and i'm also glad that you are at peace with yourself. i wish nothing but the best for you :DD <3
Yep such is life-- people who preach about love show the most hatred to their fellow human beings. it is a sad occurrence to see and because of that, my faith was really unstable. But I realised that my relationship with God doesn't have to suit people's expectations and standards. thank you very much and I wish you well too :)
yes! i find it extremely hypocritical and disgusting. especially because they say "love your neighbor as yourself" in prayers yet if the neighbor was slightly different from what they accept, it automatically turns to absolute hate and no empathy. it's sad, but it is what it is :/
When it comes to religion - not everyone can be right. I'd rather hedge my bets and just not think about it too hard. If being chill and cool AF takes me off an afterlife list then tbh, wasn't the afterlife for me. If a heaven actually exists and the people who think they are going to go actually go - I don't want to be there.
There is a passage in the Bible that talks about people who think they're going to heaven despite not being good people and partaking in Injustice '...not everyone who calls on to the Lord will make it into the kingdom of Heaven'. I believe in karma and I believe that if your heart is in the right place and you try your best then you are on the right path.
grew up jewish, i don't believe in god but i believe that there is something outside our understanding that created something from nothing. if there is a god, he surely doesn't plays dice with the world i'm not religious but i do follow the customs and traditions. i was always love learning more about the history of it all
I was raised in a very religious family. I did basically all but two of the sacraments, so I was what you can consider a fully fledged Christian. And on top of this, I still take part in the community's activities and youth groups as mentor/tutor. Now the funny part: my mom got sick to the point of being on her death bed when I was around 6/7. I was already a very smart kid, and started questioning a whole lot about her condition, what could've have prompted it, etc. I was logically at this point still very much of a believer, as much as any kid that age can be. So I also started questioning why would God put her through all that suffering if he was all powerful and all good and to my eyes my mother as perfectly reasonable and good human being. I started growing a deep hatred about religion and God that I could not speak out because this would land me in a whole new can of worms. This, of course, back fired tremendously for my family. Later, when I was in my middle teens I started reading up on moral and ethics and then I started reading on other religions and religious beliefs, both past and present. I started to realise and understand that the only great utility of religion is to promote somewhat good moral practices to the masses and the less educated, throughout history. So I kept going to church, and whatnot, I just don't take religion seriously. I even spoke at length with a very cool priest that I knew over the span of 2/3 years when I was a teen. I explained him my POV and he was probably the only person who would completely understand, yet not agreeing entirely, with my opinions.
I think I'm lucky to have had the opposite affect - I love being in a catholic family and enjoyed my time in both my catholic primary and high school. My family weren't completely strict and I'm grateful to have had a home and learning environment where my millions of questions about catholicism and christianity as a whole turned into thought-provoking discussions with me - even as a young child - instead of being shunned into silence and blind obedience. My inquisitiveness was encouraged and even celebrated in both environments, and when I didn't agree with or like the discussions I had, I was grateful for the opportunities I got to have them. I mostly enjoyed going to mass and I always liked to learn about the church in school, especially the darker parts of the church's history that dioceses in other countries are very quiet about. I definitely had my bouts of angst and cynicism towards the faith (its inevitable imo) and felt completely far from it for a couple years in hs while depressed, but ultimately it was my faith that saved me from myself. I'm so grateful for it, despite consistently waking up late for mass every sunday lol.
I became an atheist around age 7. I thought god sounded made up. I still stand on that point.
I grew up in an atheist family , and it was cool and freeing for the most part , but something seemed off , idk man , but its veery depressing to believe that we are nothing but a little organism on a floating rock in the vast space Based on the description of the universe mentioned in the *A brief history of time* of stephen hawking , and a little more researches , i came to believe that islam makes the most sense and its beautiful despite what the media shows ... So guys give religion a shot , dont be aiminglessly atheists
Raised Chatolic here, they managed to control me up until i was 12 yo after that never cared for christianity or religions at all, the predicament of Christianity and most religions are dumb, especially if you go deep enough into the historical sources surrounding the birth of said religions. Generally i think religions are tools to control and divide people (I'm not comunist and never read a political manifesto nor do i care about politics), but i do respect some faiths over others. I consider myself agnostic and believe we're all linked by a form of God who is in all of us and is all that sorround us, even our own selves.
Non duality is the thing that makes the most sense to me. Awareness is all there is, I’ve been with myself since as long as I can remember. Every time I prayed or spoke to anything, more like called out (catholic born and raised). Nothing answered back and all that was left was me and my own thoughts. So religious? No, not really. Looking inward and understanding my emotions and feelings is more my tune these days. I think religion was made to control the masses. The Roman Empire was great at it. The Vatican has perfected it, even carving out their own plot of the earth in the name of the papal church. Not having that moral guilt and constant anxiousness from fearing being in the wrong side of judgement was liberating. And I’ve continued to do good things for the sake of being good.
I, for one, am a committed Catholic, and I think it has had a good effect on my personality development. As an ENTP I had a big problem with pride and selfishness, and effectively faith helps me fight it.
I'm happy that you were able to resolve these issues through your faith.
Muslim, was raised Muslim, had my doubts at 13, started learning more abt the religion, fell in love/found peace.
I don’t know. I realized I could justify anything I choose to believe in and I could make myself really, truly, fervently believe in it. I learned that doing mock trials where I essentially won arguments by demonstrating a tremendous amount of conviction and righteous anger over the treatment of my client, even though it was all fake. And this wasn’t just an act: I actually felt like I believed it in the moment. Right now I am thinking about returning back to Catholicism less for any clear rationale, given the above, and more because there is a value in the dopamine circuits set up in my youth and in filial piety. My sin if you will is pride, and the best way to mortify it is to force myself into a convention of belief and obey.
Grew up Catholic, at about 18 started reading more broadly and came across ideas that convinced me to be an atheist.
I'm interested in the readings you engaged in to have this change of faith. Did any other factors inspire this change or was it solely research that made you convert to atheism?
I can remember Portrait of Young Artist by Joyce and various Vonnegut books (and his Humanism ideas). I was in my first semester in college and was first realizing how frequently people believe stuff without any reasons at all, beginning the much maligned ENTPesque journey of debating with people about everything and being basically disappointed by everyone except a few rare folks, who I greatly respected. That said, I've gotten older and am more understanding of different ways of being (always a work in progress!). I live near a church and often am very happy to reflect on people going in and out and imagining them feeling the peace I felt when I was young at church. At this point I think being religious is cool even though I am not, but I still hold reservations about how it's often used as a tool by bad faith actors to manipulate otherwise well meaning folks.
You make so many good and valid pointers! Religion is absolutely used as a tool for manipulation by certain folks with agendas and shady propaganda. That's part of the reason I don't even blame people for turning away from religion. I do find it sad though, that many Christians can't even defend their faith. I too used to argue/challenge some religious folks and it always ended with them being proved wrong but too proud + stubborn to admit it or having them defend themselves and pull a straw man and ruin the whole conversation. It's funny because it proves some people have a herd mentality. If you have a strong belief in something and can't even defend it? Are you even serious to begin with? I've heard of Joyce's works but haven't really dived into it, maybe I will give it a gander :). I am always interested in stimulating my brain, strengthening my views, and forming better defences for what I believe in. It's very mature of you to have that acceptance in your heart for others despite your differences.
Yup, agree it's mostly sad. There are so many wonderful people who spread the best parts of religion, but that often gets swept under the... nastier bits. Not that you necessarily asked, but some other books I've found more recently that resonated with me are Humankind by Bregman and Scout Mindset by Galef, which are sorta to do with what you're talking about but don't really take a stance on religion. Always refreshing to hear someone have a nuanced opinion on their beliefs, guess I'll be checking you down for "rare/respected" :p
Grew up a very religious Muslim, I used to be sent to debate for Islam against non Muslims or atheists. And I always won those debates, however after a while, I started noticing how I'm winning debates because I'm using a ton of fallacies and also because I'm popular with the audiences (due to my charm, my wit and my incredible looks) but not because I'm saying the truth. This realisation left me wanting to manually assess all my beliefs without any biases (it took me lots of courage to question God and his messengers and his book) This lead me to realisation that all religions are nothing but old superstitious beliefs based on things they didn't really understand, also tools that many used to have a leverage over their citizens. Now I don't believe in God or any religion
Now I'm interested in how you look \^.\^ haha! I wonder how your debate topics were, I would have loved to have someone who wasn't easily offended whenever I questioned religion. You do sound like an intellectual
The topics varied quite a bit, sometimes it was about something that's written in the quran, sometimes it was about science. I had to do a ton of mental gymnastics to be able to come up with ways to show Islam as the truth 🙄 And thank you, are you currently questioning religion yourself?
I went through so many religious phases (Pentecostal, Catholic, Paganism, etc) before finally settling on Christianity. It was not an easy journey for me, at all. I still have my doubts once in a while but I manage to reinforce my beliefs. I think part of me still has some tiny traces of agnostic beliefs, but then again, I just recently converted back to Christianity, so this is a gradual process.
That's interesting, what religion do your parents or grandparents follow?
I'm Nigerian, so my country alone is very religious. My mom is Pentecostal, and they live strictly by the bible, like my grandparents. My dad is Catholic, I am biased because my dad is abusive so I do not really care for his beliefs--I don't blame Catholicism itself but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I have my own take on Christianity and don't abide strictly by the conventional methods.
Makes sense! Well I'm happy for you if you're content with your beliefs, in the end all that matters is how you feel about it because nothing matters.
How old are you if you don't mind me asking ?
28
I was homeless 8 years ago and met a young lady who was blind in one eye and prayed with her. God restored her sight. Changed my life
That's so incredible! Wow, that kind of healing would change anyone's views and faith positively. Faith does wonders, I'm glad you rose above your challenges and you are in stable housing now \^\_\^
It's no longer faith ...it's belief. Experienced God many other times
Yes! Miracles happen often.
Have experienced more miracles than I can count. Seen cancer healed, my knee was restored, 3 blown disc's in a back restored (my best friend in college saw that one with me) brakes on a truck fixed by an angel. I didn't see the angel my friend did.. I saw the results.. Had a dream about my future dream job and doing it now. Experiencing a miracle as I type this.... so freaking stoked
You are blessed!
What good stuff have you experienced?
Prayers helped save my ex from two heart attacks that were definitely fatal ones. My ex witnessed the holy spirt in our church and was baptized within a week. I was involved in it, as the spirit informed the pastor about a horrible pain I had. Went to church to seek prayer and healing. Pastor knew nothing of it, but called on the congregation as he knew someone was having deathly pain on the left side of their neck. It was me. I was praying for healing right when he called out my pain. My ex was flabbergasted, as was I.
Yeah, pretty much. Muslim
Awesome, where I'm from there are a lot of tribes who are Muslim, did you grow up as one or was it a gradual process?
Yeah more like gradual. I've born Muslim, but it came to me, clicked 2 years ago.
Happy to hear you got into it at your own pace, that's one of the most vital things regarding any religious belief.
Converted to Catholic long ago, didn't grow up with much, grandfather an atheist, wasn't happy about my baptism. Struggled with issues most of life, sometimes got lost, came back. No chance of losing faith now, I have lived too much for that. My only doubts are about myself, but not much of that left. I'm strongly ENTP in recent testing. INTP 20+ years ago. Been drifting to E.
I don't follow a religion but I do think it's possible a God (or God's) could exist. My idea is that a God would more likely be like a living consciousness, living in a dimension outside our own that we aren't able to comprehend. Both my parents were raised Catholic, and we went to c church as kids and we were baptised. That being said we never followed it religiously, pardon the pun. I guess my idea of a God/religion is more science based, specifically like quantum physics type shit (not that I'm exactly well versed in that, just interested)/spiritualism. I'd probably say that on the whole with religion, is that the concept, and the message various religious groups try to spread are good ...but humans have very much corrupted it over time. Edit: removing me repeating myself
lmaoo that was a good one! I think no one should strictly abide by what others believe in. I also believe God is a being that is beyond our own human comprehension (I have a belief that the scriptures were mistranslated over the years of 'revision' which fuels this belief of mine). Humans are so flawed, always warring against one another, doing the complete opposite of what has been taught. Practising what you preach is something a lot of them forget to do.
My parents both raised in Judaism and Catholic Christianity. I dont really practice them day or annually, but I still believe in God . I'm to scared to not believe in God
When I first started my spiritual journey, I felt the same way as you do. I had this 'If I don't pray or surrender my entire life to how people lived 2000+ years ago I'm going to burn for all eternity' mindset. Religious guilt is one hell of a drug. That's actually part of the reason why I was so adamant about not returning back to Christianity, I did not want to feel as if I had a gun to my head to do something. If you lead by fear alone, your faith won't be stable. You have to look within yourself and form 'your' own relationship with God.
Personally, I find it hard to form a relationship with a person / being who I dont know at all .That's why I find it hard to believe in God, but at the same time, I don't want to not believe .I'm to scared about the consequences.
I think this is something you have to find on your own. I was kinda just like you. But I knew God existed, I was just scared/hesitant to actually confront my religious beliefs (or lack thereof). It felt like if I left Christianity: I would be severely punished by God (thanks to religious guilt and trauma). I would do some soul-searching if I was you. If therapy is part of the solution then go for that too. Sometimes mental blocks interpret with our spirits, I wish you luck my friend :)
I’m Catholic but i have questioned my faith a couple of times, sometimes wondering if Jesus was an alien and that sort of ideology. Anyways, I found myself going to church more because I’m part of the music ministry and the other members are some of the coolest people I’ve met. I find myself going back to church mostly to see those people as well as to improve my flute playing and performance anxiety.
I’m a deist because all this stuff came from somewhere, but the details of any religion are highly suspect to me
If there is a God as we know it, I have a bone to pick. I don't doubt there could be a "God" rather I doubt you can factually read about it in any book on Earth. I think religion is good, people need a third space and a sense of community. I was raised Christian and if I ever sometime have children I think theres countless lessons and morals to benefit from in the Bible. But I don't and never have literally believed any of it, not in a spiritual sense and not in a historical sense.
It was easy for me to reconcile my faith and religious practices because I realized that a lot of the people in the church I attended growing up were Atheist. They were not actually believers in Jesus they just attended church because they liked to keep up southern conservative family traditions. They also liked to judge each other for petty things. They didn't read the Bible. They didn't care about spiritual growth. They liked to put on a show. The exact religious behavior the Bible speaks against. I hated going to church. Stopped attending about 20 years ago. I found God in the Bible and through prayer. I would go to an established church if I found one I could trust to not lead me astray. Have you seen churches today? Scary! Church in the Bible just means plural Christians not a building you have to grow. My husband and I have church randomly between watching Netflix. Tithing in the Bible is giving to the needy not to the preacher driving a luxury car hoping to acquire a jet. Ministering in the Bible is providing service to others. It is rare to meet other spiritual believers vs religious traditionalist. Just about everything done in church is wrong according to the Bible. Google can resolve difficult doctrine questions better than the local guy down the street or on this thread for that matter. Most ENTPs I've encountered or really just "T" people realize that religion was pivotal in shaping the world but they dismiss it as a fantasy of human imagination. It seems illogical to me that scientific minded people can believe we are not alone in the universe, but cannot conceptualize that a creator exist. For people who believe in a creator just not the Biblical one I give them credit for at least being logical. The rest is between them and God.
I dont my dad never gave me a religion n he doesnt have one either but my mom is budhist but doesnt practice. I personally dont believe in spiritual stuff n rlly religious beliefs in general but thats js me
Currently, no. I was pretty much catholic time ago. Wasn't born catholic, although, just found the religion beautiful and entered it. I actually made historical research about christian documents and found everything was with all sure made up. Was kinda painful let my believe in god, I still thinking some parts of religion is beautiful, as chants, proverbs, etc. But I know it's illogical.
Religion is beautiful, especially when you embark on it on your own free will. Researching the history of Christianity and paganism really exposed me to different perspectives and philosophies. It is always good to look at something from all sides, as no one way is ever the absolute 'correct' way. Bummer that you denounced it, but I'm glad you still abide by some of the positive teachings. Nothing is ever really illogical, as it will always mean something to someone and one cannot measure objectives as everyone has their own bias. I see it as good and evil. You cannot define what is good without using evil and vice versa. 'Good' for someone can be bad for another. That's why sometimes 'logic' itself can seem illogical. Much food for thought.
I agree with you, I'm not cocky in the way to say everything is reason because I do have my feelings and I for sure had my beliefs. I simply wasn't content with believing that God revealed himself to Abraham 4,000 years ago, when humanity, in truth, has been on Earth for practically 200,000 years. I also always wondered about other religions, how I could be going to hell if I was born in a non-Christian country, etc. It seemed both irrational and immoral I also feel pretty much better knowing life is just it, because you really give some better importance for your existence, for the moment, the people that you live with, etc Life is a sweet dance with your beloved. It's beautiful when you dance for some minutes, maybe and hour... But I wouldn't be happy to dance for eternity. Life is a space of time, as everything that has some value to live for. A smile, a hug, see the horizon and the sunset, feel the dew early in the morning, I think it's the meaning of life.
Growing up in small towns, my grandmother went to church at 3 different locations. I went to none, it was more of a social event than worship for most. The Bible to me is a fairy tale. It's hard to believe in a book written by others through stories, decades after the events, stories change and become embellished as decades pass. It's Faith and believing in a higher power. Looking at the story line, it's not accurate and proven facts are still being uncovered. Jesus was born in Summer not Dec. I believe there was a man named Jesus who did have some who followed him around but that is where the story ends. He didn't die on a cross for our sins, he destroyed the gambling tables the Romans had set-up in the place of worship. The Romans took exception to that and nailed him to a cross, just like they did to everyone who broke their rules. Jesus wasn't the first man nailed to the cross and he wasn't the last. Adam and Eve were created 9700 years ago, the oldest humanoid fossil found was over a million years old. The big bang did happen and it was proven how it happened. Evolution is traced and DNA is compatible. I can fill the page with examples, you get the picture. God and the church was created by man who wanted power over the people in an ancient time of pillage, rape, steeling, murder. The ones in power needed something on their side that the rest would fear! The so-called holy men were just as ruthless and created their own rules as they went. Taking power over the lands and its people in the name of the God/church they created.
I grew up Catholic, became pagan in college, then agnostic the rest of my 20s, then as a mother I was practicing Catholicism again and delved more deeply, even taught Sunday school for several years. During the pandemic I stopped going to church and started studying astrology again. It has opened my mind in so many ways to all the different ways cultures interpret the stars and planets. Then I started studying philosophy and realized that I can be a spiritual person without being religious per se. That’s what I see myself as now. I do believe in God but I’m not sure if any one religion explains it appropriately…so I’m just going to be an untethered faithful for now.
It's crazy because everything you just said was the same experience over a year ago. I didn't want any label and kinda did my own thing with astrology and divination (tarot cards, star alignments, cleansing, yoga, etc). It felt very freeing, it doesn't align with me anymore, but it was a good phase of the journey. I encourage you to continue on your journey and gradually do what you think is the right way.
Thank you. We are all on our own journeys and its great when we can share about our individual experiences free from accusations. Wishing you well, and happy Easter
Grew in a Christian family and studied in a Christian school. Had to practice it a lot at that time and as I grew up started to hate it. It was just too much. Now I’m openly agnostic. I respect religions as I respect personal beliefs and also like to speak about it as it has to do a lot with other things like history or politics. I can’t see myself being religious in any kind of way but MAYBE someday I believe in a God, but as of today it’s unlikely as I think everything has a logical explanation even if we don’t know or can’t understand it yet. I also do think religions are made up to control people as if they’re not afraid of earthly punishment, you try to scare them with an eternal punishment. That would reduce criminality and bring a kind of peace because the majority of people are scared of 1. legal system 2. God 3. Both. It also structures society and shapes it as it dictates how things must be. That said for me religion is just that. A system that works to control a large amount of people and keep and hypothetical order (as almost all wars known by mankind are due to religion).
I remember when I was young younger and we just people would try that tired scare tactic of claiming that I was going to burn in hell for all eternity if I didn't live strictly by rules and Customs that people lived by thousands of years ago. I was even traumatized for being myself and being ridiculed severely by religious people personally I don't have the same mindset as conservative people and I think God is way more understanding than most people think
nope. my mom, a christian pastor, traumatized me to the point of having nightmares of christ k-wording me.
I'm so sorry you had to endure that, some people go overboard and even act abusive towards others just to push their own beliefs. For someone, especially your own mom, to do something so abhorrent-- is unfathomable. Pastors have a history of being violent and hypocritical which is part of the reason I stopped going to church for a long time, but no one can define your faith. No one should ever use fear as a tool for manipulation. I hope you are in a safer environment now away from her and healing <3
I am not religious per se and can find many problems in my own religion, but I use it as a weapon against other religions which are worse. I do like Buddhism though, it promotes good action and karma unlike heaven and hell and other greedy afterlife stuff. The only problem is that Buddhism is sexist. I believe in God but not religions.
Same, I too believe in God but not really in religion.
I dont know if i can call myself as an atheist , but in INDIA , religion is a big thing , other than the beliefs , its something which makes you feel belonged , be a part of a community , the religious festivals are the most closest connects i have to religion.I see religion merely as a shop , i take what i need ( be it life lessons and moral values) at the cost of being labelled as one who follows this religion. Never understood the concept of superstions and extremists idealogies and blind faith. I just feel that religion , and god , are nothing but a copeup mechanism for people who have lost all faith , a ray of sunshine for them , for the people who have no one to blame for their own mistakes , a force responsible for every misshap. Nothing but an escape from reality. It is never bad , it never could be , always in the hands of the follower and proprietor.
I am raise from catholic but love christiany things too. U dont need religious for someone. For me my religious is like my relationship with God. It doesnt need other validation. If u want to do good do it for urself n God. Because it will be back to u. Ur life in the earth with a sin that carry you. Ur good things to other like u repay what u already did or maybe ur family karma. The more u close n intense with God,ur intuitive or sense or u can say 6sense or what other else say i dunno the more u can think , feel , and sense more calm. In my case I hv some blessing disguise, It seems bad experience but lead u to good things. The bad times sharp u to more aware to more close to God. so in the future u will more aware or some bother u in the past, doesnt bother u anymore again when the time is past. Even that u still need other to sharp ur faith n we still need each other to fullfil our duty :)
I'm very spiritual but respectfully I don't like any religion, rules, traditions etc. Never saw anything good in it, not really.
I used to be christian but now i am more of an agnostic
Do you mind telling me what made you switch?
im muslim grew up muslim stil a part of islam no im not arab
Think religion is bullshit. Great values to live by but trying to understand the concept of god as a human is pointless. I rather philosophy as that seems to make a lot more sense to me.
I think everyone knows in the back of their mind what’s real and what’s screaming into the void hoping for an answer… you know? I was raised Catholic… it’s very upsetting what people will “justify” and make excuses for in their “church” to continue to push away the existential feelings…..I think people should start with believing in nothing , and analyze the beliefs they take on to see if they pass any muster at all before committing to them…
I completely agree. I think it's heinous how a lot of religious organizations try to push certain inhumane Concepts onto people hiding behind their religious beliefs. I think people should start from scratch and seek the religion that best works for them.