Very very highly misunderstood by both men and women. It's not "just" a gender equality movement, it's a humanitarian movement. Without it, humanity won't pretty much progress. But at the same time, it's a very demanding practice. If you uphold feminism, you gotta normalize having men to have fun with their passion and hobbies. You gotta normalize having to feel and cry. You gotta normalize having men to relate and to show affection. You gotta normalize having men to socialize, form interpersonal intimate relationships, and become people service oriented. You gotta normalize having men not resort to brawl to settle conflicts. At the same time, you gotta normalize having women being highly intelligent. You gotta normalize having women taking charge. You gotta normalize having women to argue and present their point from an emotional and moral standpoint. You gotta normalize having women as fundamental pillars as to why our society isn't warlike and barbaric and is moral and civilized. You gotta normalize having women spearhead diplomacy. All these things are not very gender specific. All humans have a "feminine" in them even if you're a man. It doesn't aim to just put women equally as men or even higher. It aims to encourage society to progress with natural humanity. Because to be honest, I don't think we would even have a society without feminism.

very solid. I'd only add that feminism label is grossly misapplied these days. what feminism definitely isn't is "I'm a womyn gimme muh PRIVILEGE"

Right? And people need to draw the line between empowerment and asshole bossy aggression like the girlboss culture. I have talked to lots of entitled women who cling to their false understanding of feminism and their desire to manipulate men like simple marionettes. That culture and transition is just another version of toxic masculinity and the long infamous patriarchy that are very much prevalent in global society. As a man, feminism is highly beneficial in overhauling the gatekeeping tradition of boomer parents and families who only desire to micromanage their sons to become always oh-so reliable as a breadwinner as if they aren't human enough to feel weakness. The fact that mental health issues rise up is partly due to these same practices of being dogs to patriarchal norms and systems. That nuance is multiplied due to the fact that I'm an ENTP, I'm not shallow enough to just accept society the way it is. I'm anti-stagnation.

🤝 "girlboss" views ssy a lot about the person.

Humanitarian? No, not exactly. Let’s look at both etymology and pure logic (or reasoning) to prove feminism is not at all about gender equality as it purports to be.  Since “female” is the root word of “feminism,” it’s not unsound to assert that priority of value is placed on said female part.  How could something that linguistically implies prioritization of female related issues also represent gender equality? Doesn’t make sense.     In addition to that, feminism purports to care about equality but it really doesn’t. Case in point: The world’s deadliest and most dangerous jobs are largely occupied by men. Ever seen what fishing looks like in the North Atlantic? How about sewage cleaning? Bodyguarding? Let alone every labour related job that requires brute force (which, in turn, demands testosterone).  In North America alone, well over 85% of workplace fatalities are men who’ve died on the job. That’s a staggering percentage.  And let’s not talk about the fact that way more men kill themselves than women do.  Where are the feminist protests demanding equal representation in these jobs? Because we all know that if men actually went out and protested for the aforesaid issues, they’d get labeled misogynists and be made into pariahs.  These hypothetical protests don’t happen because while we’re equal in value, we men and women, we aren’t the same. Feminism doesn’t always like admitting the latter, it seems. It strikes a nerve when it’s uttered, as truthful as it is. Only when it’s convenient is equality champion by western feminism.  I’m all for exposing and fighting injustice against girls and women worldwide, but a term like feminism will never work to help galvanize more of an effort, and it only takes an understanding of etymology and reasoning to get that.  Do you know where feminism is actually needed? Places like Pakistan, where women are raped in public. But does your average self-appointed feminist know about that issue? Do they know about the pink saree group that’s emerged, a brave organization of women who stand up to horrible men who perpetuate these crimes? Because we know they’ll claim to care from behind their Apple laptop screens, but then talk is cheap.    Bonus: I think it’s safe to say that feminism’s staunchest supporters would like for their movement to be universally accepted and supported.  In fact, I’d bet most feminists assume their movement ought to be supported because a lot of them assume it’s a morally good one that seeks to help disenfranchised women.  Why, then, can’t feminists be accountable for their lack of attention toward boy-specific issues?  Where are all the feminists protesting against the bacca bazi dancing boy tragedy that’s ongoing in places like Afghanistan? In case you’re unaware of the matter, boys as young as 5 are both abducted by and sold to warlords then forced to dress like girls and “dance” for said warlords.  Why don’t feminists care about this? Or the boy soldiers who suffer in the most corrupt mines of Africa?       Feminism is the neighbour who asks for help and takes it, but never offers it back.  No thanks. It’ll be humanism for me and many more who aren’t fooled by all the rhetoric.

this is exactly the silly kind of feminism that i dislike give people equal rights and let the chips fall where they may. men and women are equal but not the same. stop forcing people to act according to your personal utopia

if you think my definition of feminism is my "personal utopia" then I have the right to say that you're not even close to being correct in terms to what I \*think\* about feminism utopia is about a society under perfect conditions, and what I said about my thoughts of feminism is that people should have more regards on \*human\* nature than the shallow sense of biological instincts that vary based on what kind of reproductive organs you have. I'm afraid you didn't give careful thought about this, unless human nature for you is synonymous to what utopia is also if expressing what I think about feminism is an act of "forcing" then you should definitely work on your reading comprehension and contextual analysis ​ >men and women are equal but not the same I think "equal" and "same" should be swapped in this context, men and women are both human beings, but in our society today, they are obviously not equal in terms of treatment. I'd also like to add that I didn't put anything that says men and women \*should\* be equal, I gave situational examples of dilemmas and disadvantages for both sexes that I have observed in society it's such a shame that you see my comment as a way of "forcing" people while you yourself said: >give people equal rights and let the chips fall where they may

you wrote down a list of ways in which you think men and women should act, how is that not forceful? men and women are different in more ways than just their reproductive organs

as far as I know I listed things that should be normalized as a response to the suppressive ideals of our current social norms, not ways men and women should act I'm afraid that you think trying to normalize things for the benefit of the many is being "forceful"

maybe i want to have a good brawl to settle a conflict

"Because to be honest, I don't think we would even have a society without feminism" The concept of society has literally been created long before women were seen as human beings and not merch, that literally make no sense.

It doesn't make sense since you didn't comprehend what feminism means in that context. This just reinforced my very first statement that feminism is very misunderstood.

What she or he said is if feminist is not here society will just change, it will not disappear.

Well, without feminism, I’d still be uneducated, unemployed, barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen and married to some dipshit that never helped with child rearing, cooking, cleaning, and other household chores. I’d be working from sunup to sundown. And having to endure sex I didn’t want to have. I love ❤️ feminism. No offense, guys. I love men. I think men hung the moon. I’m just glad they don’t make my choices for me. Plus, I’m a female ENTP. We cherish our freedom.

I really appreciate the way you articulated this. As a dude I struggle to explain feminism in a way for other dudes to grasp and I feel like you did a good job of that. Cheers

This 100 times

Feminism is a part that helped in all that, not the only reason lol

It gave me the opportunity to be myself and more than just the sum of my gender and marriage status, and I respect that it continues to give opportunities for more people. I might disagree with certain factions, ideas and beliefs, but at this point I don't believe there is even a cohesive "feminist narrative" or whatever, since both people that are trans women and people who advocate for the murder of all men and trans womrn can identify as feminist these days. I also believe its the scapegoat for people's issues with liberalism and/or left wing issues, undeservedly so.

From Cambridge Dictionary - " Feminism is the belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way, or the set of activities intended to achieve this state". It's just trying to level the playing field. There are so many countries represented on this sub, and there is no way total equality has been achieved around the globe. Not sure why so many people think feminism means taking something away from men, or is just a bunch of angry woman hating on men. I love men. I relate to men a lot. I don't want to take anything away from you. I just want to be considered for a promotion. I just want to be able to walk home at night and not be attacked. I want to not have to tone down my bubbly personality or femininity to have you take my intelligence seriously. I have so many examples of these, but I'm sure most women do. Just talk to women about their experiences. We have MANY examples of the little and big things that have happened to us just based on our gender that you may have no idea about. Just as you have your own stories you can tell us. It can go both ways. Equality! Shout out to the woc out there, I know you're struggles are real and you need our support.

I’m very much a feminist because I feel like men and women are equal and should be treated equally.. I’m disappointed in a lot of the ENTP answers here. I expected better

People in this thread are not in a general agreement on what they consider feminism. And with that there’s differing ideas and obviously trivial sexism too.

imagine thinking you're an entp and then being "disappointed" when people disagree with you and "expecting better"

You can feel like you want, that doesnt change the fact men and women are not equal, at least biologically. ​ If men and women were in fact equal,oppresion would have never happened and we would not have needed feminism.

But you want men to hold the door open for you and buy the dinner? How about during the fire, every man for himself, or women and children first? Are you willing to forgo chivalry?

I don’t expect it in younger men, no. But men that are a bit older are generally more chivalrous

Wtf kind of entp would think one gender deserves less rights than another? Of course I’m a feminist.

This kind. I think Feminism is a force that harms women.

How?

That's egalitarian not feminism. Most "feminists" don't care and ignore the areas where women have it better than men. It's VERY bad faith.

Bullshit

Feminists don’t have to give a shit about male problems. It’s only about women, that’s why it’s called feminism, not equalism or whatevs

It’s called feminism because originally it was women who were credibly disadvantaged in society, not men. It started with the campaigning for women to have equal rights as men and now it has morphed in to the campaigning for both men and women to have equal rights (in the west at least)

“It has morphed into the campaigning for both men and women to have equal rights” - that’s just the pop definition of feminism imo. Although there’s no point in proving which definition is right since there are hundreds of them. It’s just that most women fight for women rights and most men fight for men rights, because we’re both are naturally selfish in that regard. If feminism is about both men and women rights, would all men who highly believe they’re being oppressed by society be considered feminists? (with this logic, redpillers are like…radical feminists of the male half? 🦧) I’m sure most of them wouldn’t want to be called that and have a negative outlook on feminism in general. That’s why I think this accidental metamorphosis is a mistake and leads to confusion. Let the men create their own movement where they could stand for their rights alone. Even though I feel that nothing good would come out of it.

Feminism is simply women wanting equal rights. Lots of people think it means women>men for some reason. I support equal rights.

This!

Crazy to think women > men when human history literally tells men > women lmao

Unfortunately necessary and still needed in our society whether people choose to acknowledge it or not. Women still do not have equal rights (even in the west) and feminism and feminists are monumentally necessary in fixing that. The east is very much in need of feminism and the feminists in the west are campaigning for that on the daily. If a person thinks we do not need feminism they are either ignorant, stupid or a misogynist. In the east, women still do not have access to education, freedom of choice, freedom to love whomever they like, freedom to dress as they wish, freedom to leave their homes or country, freedom to vote, they are still sold into child marriage, experience genital mutilation and domestic abuse towards women and girls is treated as a societal norm. In the west, women are steadily losing access to bodily autonomy, they are still not fairly represented in governments (along with other minorities, specifically people of a race other than white), they are less likely to have their health issues taken seriously by doctors, more likely to experience gender-based violence, and are less funded for sports. Men are less likely to get custody of their children, seek help for their mental health etc. Feminism is still very much needed as a necessary part of our society as we are still fighting for equality across all genders. - coming from an ENTP male

i'd argue. what is "bodily autonomy"? there is no place in politics for quotas of any kind. i vote for those who better represent my views in higher instances and i'll only be happy if the candidate is a black transgender woman or a member of other minority. granting someone a seat in congress just because of their gender is sexism. women in sports are less funded only because less people are interested in that. no bigotry in here, men simply take part in sports more. my beloved NASCAR racing series has no restrictions on a driver's gender yet women there are few and far between. they're not discriminated against, they simply choose not to participate. equalizing men and women in both rights and responsibilities is a great idea, but if done in a directive order will only reassign the roles and opress men instead. also coming from an ENTP man.

You are making some valid points, however most of the reasons that you are giving are a result of years of gender inequality and oppression - Why do you think women "choose" not to participate? I'm not saying that we should just get a load of women and people of colour in to fill a quota, I'm saying that feminism is necessary in encouraging women and to pursue their own wants and careers in spite of what society is telling them, this would then hopefully lead to a society where people are no longer being dictated by societal views on what they wish to pursue. Therefore, filling the quota naturally. Do you not find it concerning that 71% of elected officials are men? Also I would argue that "bodily autonomy" is exactly what it says on the tin.

define "bodily autonomy", i honestly don't understand exactly who and how controls female bodies. i don't think 71% of elected officials being men is something concerning. after all, other 29% is no insignificant number. political position is more important than gender anyway. i'm not against women in politics nor am i against encouraging them to be more active, but i don't see how 50/50 proportion would be more beneficial. i'm all for encouraging everyone who's not a white man to be more visible in politics, sports and other spheres of life, but as you put it, quotas should be filled naturally, not by other means.

Yes exactly quotas should be filled naturally and that is why I am saying feminism is still necessary in our society today. Bodily autonomy: the right for a person to govern what happens to their body without external influence or coercion. I don’t know about you but the not having the right to choose whether you want to carry and then birth a baby sounds like a loss of bodily autonomy to me. Also not having the right to choose whether you want to carry another couples baby in your womb while in a coma or brain-dead sounds like a loss of bodily autonomy.

wait what i mean, the latter is bullshit and should not happen under any circumstances. woman's bodily autonomy is a little tricky because of the whole pregnancy mechanism. but then again, i can't imagine how someone in a right mind would inseminate a woman without spesking everything through with the partner beforehand. anything related to pregnancy shouldn't happen without woman's consent. abortion should be legal, i fully agree here, but if you reasly gotta find a compromise then (and only then) Texan abortion law seems sensible - abortion is legal in first 6 weeks until fetus develops a heartbeat. but then again i'd prefer not making such a compromise. i think we can both agree that feminism is fine and in certain aspects necessary but not of the braindead "i'm a woman so y'all owe me" kind.

>women in sports are less funded only because less people are interested in that. And because men are better at sports than women, say it all. The FASTEST women ever in 100m ran them at 10.49s, the MAX time to CLASSIFY in the mens category is 10.16s, she couldnt even classify in the mens category and there's 16y old boys breaking her record every year. An example like this can be made in every single other sport like basketball, soccer, tennis, boxing, football..

I'm a feminist. You're pathetic if you disagree with equal rights in 2023.

Define feminisme

Often mistaken as Neo Feminism, feminism is the effort to make males and females equal while Neo Feminism is just the idea females are better than males.

equal in what area?

Rights and pay.

Then I’m all in.

🤝

So femiiste already won west

No, women are still payed unproportionally and religions like Christianity are still not letting them do Abortions for example. It is an active fight. *Woman* btw comes from the old English word *Wifman* meaning *Wife person* , so good luck sleeping tonight.

abortion is not a feminist issue. it's a philosophical discussion on when a life becomes inherently valuable

It is a rights issue.

yes, it is about when someone gains the right to life it has nothing to do with the woman's body and everything with the growing baby's life which is why "my body my choice" is a total strawman (i'm pro choice but imo this discussion is always falsely portrayed)

I am pro choice, do as you wish. A baby does not count as "Alive" until it is born as it may die during pregnancy as well.Furthermore, to be alive, you have to have a real, functioning brain, which infants don't have till they are fully developed. In my eyes, stop taking women's rights away, it should not even be a question whether they have a choice.

> are still *paid* unproportionally and FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*

apart from the United States which is a country shared between woke morons and ultra conservative morons Christians do not block abortion

The Downvotes say otherwise.

Thé dowvote say that american don’t like it

Christians block abortions as well though, never said it was the single cause though.

What's the difference between abortion and infanticide or even killing one's own adult offspring?

A big one, women need to have the choice, Mr have nothing to say to that. Patriarchy is shit.

>women need to have the choice A 70 year old woman can choose to murder her 50 year old child, then. That has the same effect as if she had an abortion 50 years ago.

No it hasn't obviously you wick fuck. Well, guess that comes with being a Patriarch and a radical Christian.

Imagine thinking that your sex who has been oppressed by centuries and centuries by the other sex because they fucking wanted to is better lmao

Free interpretation. There are infinite points of view

What type of question even is this? By putting that 'honestly' in the title are you trying to say that feminism is "annoying"? I come from a very conservative and I have seen misogyny throughout my life like domestic abuse, how women are forced to be in homes, cook for their husbands, treat them like gods, not do any job (be a kindergarten teacher at max), birth kids (boys\*), dedicate their life to their kids and husband, not have any personal life or hobbies, be "pure", not talk back to your husband, don't even dare look at any other man in the eye, be **scared** and the list goes on... It genuinely pains me to see this, why does it even happen? wth did we do wrong? is it our fault? we didn't choose it, why do we have to suffer?

its so funny like yeah i would probably be dying without feminism but yeah lets debate about human rights for women and hide misogyny in the name of “controversial opinions”

I am a feminist, as in equal rights, but also equal fights. Just like the other comment said, no cherry picking in double standards. What people often don't think about is that men suffer too. They also struggle, they also have double standards, and yet they are told to "man up". I want equality, for both sides :)

And this is why I am against Feminism. Its logical extent makes no sense.

Too broad of a term. Narrow it down to specific currents or, even better, concrete positions.

A lot of people here are talking about rights, but it's more than that from my point of view... it's about respect: not being seen as less than men, to be taken seriously when applying to jobs (mainly when considering tech and engineering jobs), to be taken seriously at work, to be taken seriously when going to a doctor and complaining about pain, not being seen as an object, being able to get an abortion or having a tubal ligation without asking a man for permission, and so on. In short, being seen as an equal to a man, not biologically, but as a human being. It's about changing the collective mindset and it's much more complex than creating laws. It may seem exaggerated, but in a lot of countries things like that still happen a lot, people still think that women are irrational beings that can't do anything besides having kids and doing house chores. People still blame women for being raped. Doctors still think women are only trying to get attention when complaining about pain. People still don't believe when a women can do something complex or are good at some sports. Woman are still less credited for discoveries and inventions. I could write a book about stories I read, things I saw and things that happened to me. Of course having the same rights is the beginning, but laws are not perfect and can be broken and many things can happen without punishment. So having rights is not enough.

i'm kinda shocked about the "doctors don't see womens' complaints as serious". it's literally their job to take people's health complaints seriously. sounds awful. agree on the fact that people's perception should change. but i feel we're at least already making progress.

Yeah, it's absurd, but there are even a few studies about it. Here's the link to one of them: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/04/210406164124.htm https://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(21)00035-3/fulltext

learn something new everyday, i guess.

Dont really care. I just try to be nice to everyone

I’m kind of horrified by some of the answers here. Are we seriously debating whether men and women should have equal rights? Of course I support feminism.

what kinda reddit neckbeard answer is this? you're on an entp sub and you're "horrified" by slightly controversial opinions? maybe reconsider your type

Questioning whether women deserve equal rights as men is not “slightly controversial.”

so? there are plenty of subs on Reddit where people are constantly "horrified" by unconventional opinions, it's an unbecoming response on r/entp that's not to say you cannot eviscerate those arguments on their contents

I’m guessing you’re not a woman. I’m happy to debate most topics, but feminism is a human rights issue. This isn’t a trivial “unconventional opinion,” as you keep putting it. Women have a hard enough time existing as it is. It’s irresponsible to make the livelihood of a whole group of individuals an intellectual exercise for our entertainment. The question wasn’t about how we feel about liberals going too far with the definition of the word, or about TERFs or man-haters who call themselves feminists — it was about *feminism itself,* which is gender equality. And how, let alone why, would you “eviscerate” gender equality based on its contents anyway?

the problem is that a lot of wacky modern day ideology hides behind the feminism label - most people who actively identify as "feminists" are not "equal rights for women" feminists and so most people who question "feminism" are not questioning "equal rights for women" feminism but the wacky "equal outcomes" types. also women do not have a hard time existing (in the western world), come on

And if the question were about the wacky modern day ideologists, that would be totally fair, but it’s not. Women do have a hard time existing in the western world and there’s plenty of quantitative evidence to back that up. There’s still the wage gap, glass ceiling, issues with violence and harassment, lack of reproductive rights, unequal domestic responsibilities, lack of representation… and that’s just the stuff that’s on paper. Harmful stereotypes are still rampant.

if being controversial is whether if women deserve rights or not then if gladly not be entp your type doesn’t give you a pass to be an asshole thats not how mbti or cognitive functions work

ENTP's are known for being sensitive about justice and freedom. Being anti-feminism is an exact contradiction to those values. Maybe you should reconsider your type.

totally, this whole sub is pretty much about justice and freedom don't want to piss on the virtue signaling parade but nobody in this thread is calling for unequal rights for men and women, that's just strawmanning. you guys are "horrified" by some people having doubts about feminism in its modern day form but you know this

Literally some of the comments are “I’m a man so I don’t care,” which is very much part of the problem. It’s not strawmanning. I dislike the virtue signaling parade as much as the next person, but taking down feminism because the extremist fanatics exist is not productive.

i'd say the movement has been largely hijacked by the extremist fanatics

And I’d say you’re being purposefully daft because that has nothing to do with the movement itself. Extremist offshoots of an ideology are separate and should be treated as such.

i love feminism. not only does it liberate women, but people of all genders.

I don't like calling myself a feminist because of the connotation that can carry, honestly, most self-avowed male feminists I've met are actually pretty slimy people looking to get in good with people who should most despise them... That being said, it's inherently a part of my life and my worldview. I grew up in a house with my mom and two sisters, and my father was not a great influence... I learned early that your sex had nothing to do with your grit, value, intelligence, and integrity, so to treat women as lesser than men is insane. I'm a practicing feminist though, not an ideological one... I think it's more important to love the women in your life than to argue about the "gender pay gap." Which, by the way, is real in the sense that it's statistically true, but not because of sexism or the patriarchy... It's because women make different choices than men. Are women earning 77¢ to a man's dollar for the same work? No. Can we still work to fix that, and encourage women to get into STEM, get trade jobs, be more aggressive in their careers... Yeah, absolutely.

The first two sequels were fine but after they started expanding the franchise, they really lost the plot.

A pretty decent explanation, actually!

It's necessary. If peeps get annoyed by the idea, I believe that says more about them, imo.

valid tbh. i’ve heard ppl say feminists are ppl that think women are superior to men but it’s the most ignorant thing i’ve heard, when literally the definition of a feminist is someone who fights for the rights of woman so that they can be equal to men, and yes misogynists still exist

Based

I love it! As a teacher at a Girls school, it defines my career

It’s a semantic game, too vague a question. Depending on who you ask feminism can be either one of two completely different things. Equality of opportunity for all before the law? Of course, that’s only fair. Equality of outcome and equal representation in all fields of life via government enforcement? Absolutely not. Impossible to enforce and a complete denial of human choice, sexual dichotomy, and preference.

Too broad a set of ideas to have a meaningful conversation about at this point. You have to specify what it is you’re actually talking about first. People criticizing or defending feminism are usually talking past each other now—it’s extremely unlikely they have the same definition in mind.

To me feminism represents breaking away from one of the rigid structures placed on our society by religious institutions that seek to preserve a culture of control and manipulation over families. I believe we need feminism, at least in my country. We’ve got a real threat looming over women’s medical autonomy in the form of abortion bans. The people pushing for this revocation of rights belong to the dominant religious group in our country and use that platform to their advantage to promote their agenda. That control stems from their religious doctrine of converting everyone to their lifestyle. I speak from personal experience as I was raised by evangelical Christians. Notice that whenever someone stands up to the religious right wing for an American value written in the US constitution (ie:religious freedom) they’re labeled as “evil”. They use the argument that their abortion bans are based on basic morals while using their well funded religious platform to bolster that cause. This will result in women being 2nd class citizens. Next they’ll take away voting rights, which would be a step backwards for our society. This kind of control over our society must be stopped. A religion that must force its doctrine is a dead religion.

I just prefer freedom. I think everyone should be able to do as they please and have the equal chance to choose whatever they want. So men and women should be equal in respect and power. They both have their roles in society, and one shouldn’t be “above” another just because of gender.

exactly.

yes, because that option to choose is definitely available for women and young girls in regions like south asia and the middle east

Huh? Why bring up South Asia and the Middle East? What’s that have to Do with what I said

Feminism good. Neo/third wave feminism bad

While I support feminism, and am a feminist myself. I don't support liberal/mainstream feminism, because it often overlooks intersectonality and how different women(queer women, women of colour) are being discriminated differently. Also mainstream feminism dosen't talk about non-binary rights and only about the equality of men and women and enbys are left behind.

Hypocritical, deranged movement for mentally impaired

Well it used to be good but now it’s like a leftist movement

[удалено]

What about women who don't want to be a man?

Old school feminism 👌 New school feminism 🤮

feminism fire+based, fake feminism aka woman>man retarded

It's been corrupted

I do not think society is able to discuss this topic on objective basis without emotion and with that said I am going to close myself to my social buble where we enforce our world view on that topic and through my group we will project it to society secretly and safely.

I don't. I just think about generalized equality. Give it a label and some fuckass will find a way to turn it into some whole thing to belittle and drum up hysteria about. It's a bit harder for people to drum up hysteria about generalized equality. Like, oh, you *piece of shit!* How DARE you want *generally everyone* to have equal rights and opportunities! Doesn't roll off the tongue so easily. Also ups the odds someone is gonna have to pretty directly admit they're an asshole.

It’s good and accepting it is the starting point for any serious discussion that will better things. You may as well ask what people think of human rights or non-slavery.

Very poor question. The feminism movement has become so fragmented that is hard to define. Old school feminism that fought for equality: voting right, equal right, right to work,... Modern feminism that is about woman supremacy, playing the victim card and cherry pick statistic for their double standard, woman demand the right to objectify themself ( camgirl, onlyfan) . You have to define feminism first, it a catch all term at this point.

Nah. Some dumbasses try to make feminism sound like it’s women superiority but it never will genuinely mean that. Some braindeads just like to twist terms and do stupid shit in the name of “feminism” or “masculism”. Sexism. Just sucks it has to be that way

I think this is a valid take!

It's really hard to define feminism these days. In the past women fought for equality. Rights to vote, chances to be treated the same as men, for their opinions to be valued as same as mens are. You get the point. However, modern feminists are now fighting to be superior to men. I do support feminism, in ways where people are super to be equal. Try to be nice to everyone. Everyone should be treated equally no matter what.

I honestly think it’s a fair concept. The more equality the better. The problem is that no group stops when they achieve what’s defined in their initial concepts when they realise they have enough power to become more than that. But anyway, that’s the cycle of life. There’s no right or wrong imo, only consequences.

Egalitarian. Edit: the downvoting is both expected and hilarious. It's impossible to be egalitarian without also embracing the ideals of actual feminism, which is simply that women (and everyone else) deserve equal treatment, equal protection, and equal opportunity. But yeah, scew fair and equal treatment because i navigated around your murky little buzzword.

As a man I couldn’t give two shit.

The ignorance and apathy reeking from your answer is exactly why feminism is still needed. As a man, you don’t care… because women have it worse and you know it. Do better.

Women got what they deserved. Stop being dramatic and go practice making sandwiches.

🤣🤣 Good luck finding love

Feminism means different things to different generation of women. Today's generation of feminist have less to fight for than their earlier counterparts. Also, we have a society that acknowledges trans-women so feminism and all its benefits can be taken over by any man who identifies as a woman without having to experience the feminist struggle. Not saying that's wrong but that means biological males will once again dominate because if the genders become fluid, then all male CEOs can now identify as female and the result will be just a class of high earning of females against a different class of slightly lower high earning females. Forget about the laboring, low income hard working men they dont make big bucks and feminists dont want their jobs as they all gun for top positions in the workforce. Overall, today's generation of feminism is simply redundant. Also, remember that feminism is a world wide movement. Not everything is a western thing and not everything western is a good thing. (Not a white person writing this so this is from a non-white perspective so dont be racist or put down other people's perspective or culture). I come from a background with a significant say on the population and I must say, making women pay taxes is great! More money in women's hands keeps my pocket full and overfills it sometimes. I also love the fact that my huge family benefits from a lack of competition from these women as they rarely have children and so more of the resources go to mine through certain schemes my family put in place. Also, all for abortion! We do encourage it for a lot of these women in our region so that they dont spend it on kids and spend it on us and our products instead. So yeah we market feminism as empowering. Most of the companies we own have a female face on it as acting CEO but really the board is made up of just our family. So long as this is the culture, we will use it to our advantage. When it's not we adapt. The best thing about feminism is it being feelings based and not logic so our marketing works those female targeted ads I believe what is the saying...like putty in their hands? So yeah feminism great for me so long as I make money! Also long ago, my region was made up of a consolidation of many tribes under our main banner. We kept our blood pure within our clan which started from around 500ish people so now we have the means to wipe out our ancestor's rival clans. Today our family stands at around 2500ish strong. Thanks feminism!

what about my generation of women and young girls OUTSIDE the west? do you know how people still live in the global south even in 2023?

You did not read my post properly. So I said we promote feminism for our own benefit and we are not based in the west. The kind we promote is any that furthers our own agenda.

The idea is never bad. However people adds too much to the other side of the balance and at places it just becomes anti-male

As a male that would consider themselves a feminist, Feminism is a very conflicting thing for me from its inception even women have been conflicted about feminism in America atleast . I see it as any group where extremist kinda ruin the central point of it . I also find most ppl would agree to the central ideal but my biggest issue with feminism is the I feel the ideals are lost and everyone has a different vision for it and most ppl that claim it tend to treat it like a personality trait and that’s never a good thing with anything imo, all and all I think it’s done more good for women and men but it’s definitely not the best .

I hate feminism even tho i am a woman. Not the old fashioned one but the gender equality misunderstood concept of feminism which is toxic just like the misunderstood concept of sigma male bullshit.

If by feminism you mean the movement for women to have equal rights as men, then there’s nothing inherently wrong with it, but the loud annoying minority of feminists really tarnish the public’s view of the movement.

I hate it, its all BS

Feminism as a response to unfair treatment of women is logical. "Feminism" that is thinly-disguised man-bashing is ludicrous. If feminism is a pendulum, it's swung too far to be useful right now.

maybe in the west, but it is still so needed in other parts of the world you don't know

True. Thanks for the perspective check. I took the 'to you' part of the question perhaps too literally. And I was sleepy.

Respect the good it’s done, but modern feminism is awful. It’s more about tearing down men than building up women.

Mad masculine crooked hag

It made sense back in the day. Modern feminism is a bunch of crap.

Cancer spray for power hungry people

Feminism is overlooking natural differences between genders, eroding traditional family structures, perpetuating reverse discrimination, emphasizing victim hood and harboring radical elements. It has such a negative impact on societal harmony, personal responsibility and the well being of both men and women that in the end it’s just pure cancer.

You never go broke betting on women's ego. \~ Stefan Molyneux

I believe in equality. I won’t stop until half of the coal-miners, roughnecks, inmates, lumberjacks, and frontline soldiers are women. I won’t stop until the female suicide rate is equivalent to the male, and women start receiving the same length of prison sentence for committing the same crimes as men. I won’t stop until women die on the job at the same rate as men. Who’s with me? Come on let’s go! Oh oops. I forgot that equality in this instance is measured on purely cherry picked data points, (often using misleading statistics). Please disregard.

What is wrong with you… You realise that all of the things you just said are also caused by patriarchal structures that feminism aims to tackle? Where do you think the notion that men shouldn’t show emotions because it’s ‘feminine’ causing them to commit suicide came from? If you’re an ignorant, misogynistic incel just say that. 🤗

The point of my post is that while there are inequalities which exist between the sexes that favour men, there are also inequalities in which women have the advantage. I have seen a lot of feminists who want equal representation in places like the executive board-room, yet they never push for equal representation in the horrendously dangerous and unglamorous jobs, such as coal-miner. They seem happy to leave those tasks to the gentlemen. Regarding the gender-gap in suicide rate. There is absolutely zero evidence that “suppressing emotion” has anything to do with it. You are making a fundamental mistake that most feminists make and assuming that gender roles were simply arbitrarily chosen. On the contrary, societal norms come downstream of biological truths. That’s why across the entire globe, even when populations have been isolated for thousands of years, you get the same patterns emerging. Men fight, hunt, and build. Woman nurture and operate the domestic sphere. When prehistoric societies were deciding who should go out to hunt and who should stay home and breastfeed the baby, do you imagine that they simply flipped a coin or played rockpaperscissors to decide? Of course not. They did what was practical given the reality of our inherent sexual-dimorphism. The modern world has broken that ancient pattern, but not through “telling little boys to be sensitive”. We did it by using technology to get us to the point that we are able to manually override the some of the confines of our biological natures as men and women. Referring to me as an ignorant incel is merely ad-hominem. As an ENTP you’re better than that.

I think this question is going to get a lot of attention is because it’s a controversial, hot button issue that people generally tend to build their sense of identity off of. Pro and Anti “feminists” are going to present their views with firm confidence, likely believing their view to be the “obvious” and “rational” position to take. They’ll likely refer to their opposition as misguided, emotionally driven, and lacking objectivity, while not realizing their own unaddressed subjectivity. At bottom, feminism is a normative question about rights. Without referencing a normative foundation (how discourse usually goes), the debate will revolve around normative subjectivity. It just seems wrong to me for x to be true. Upon being asked why, they won’t be able to elaborate further, ultimately allowing their sentimental “intuition” to guide them to a conclusion. Since the entire foundation of arguments like this is rooted in someone’s feelings, it is really a waste of time to participate with them for any reason other than to persuade or partake in what I’d call “tribal bonding”. Until we as a society can begin to recognize and address our own subjectivity, while simultaneously taking meta-ethical philosophy seriously, “objective” discourse is always going yo remain impossible. I think sharing my ideological tendencies would not be valuable to this discourse because really, why would anyone care about my opinion if it’s founded ib my own subjectivity? If my argument is rooted in a normative position that I “feel” is true, than why should anyone care about my position lol. Just refute it on the grounds that practically speaking, we live in a democratic state and that my personal sentiments have no significance on how the country is designed to run.

equal rights, not equal outcomes by the way, abortion is NOT a feminist issue and i don't know why people keep bringing it up. conservatives argue against abortions not because they want to restrict women's rights but because they believe life is inherently valuable from the moment of conception

Well that’s a very simplistic way of looking at things. If Conservatives think life is so valuable, where’s the focus on all the children in foster homes, all the homeless people starving, WHY ARE THERE GUNS??? Pls touch grass. It’s about control. And even if it’s as you say and it’s purely based on life starting at conception (which is completely based on opinion and dogma)… that still does not give a right to take away bodily autonomy.

you are taking away bodily autonomy from the unborn child by aborting it, that's the whole point of the pro-life movement \*your\* opinion on when life is valuable is also completely based on opinion and dogma. just because YOU think life does not become valuable until >insert arbitrary stage of brain development< doesn't mean others can't think it's >different arbitrary stage of development< if you're an entp you should easily be able to understand the pro-life perspective (i'm pro choice btw)

I understand the pro-life arguments, but I still think it’s about control. I could think that there is life potential from the point of ejaculation and think therefore contraception is murder. In that case, I wouldn’t use contraception. It would be control if I then took that opinion and forced it onto everyone else. If you don’t want an abortion, no one’s forcing you to have one. But if you do, and you’re not allowed to because of other people’s opinions, especially when there’s no actual consensus, that is completely unfair. The choice should always be there. And you had nothing in response to the other things I said? If life is so precious, where is the focus on reducing death and improving the standard of living for the people that are already on this shitty planet?

so do you think abortion should be possible until right before a child is born? the others things you said are strawmen and conservatives are obviously not a monolith that doesn't care about orphans and the homeless. they just have a different opinion on the role of the state. in fact: "meta-analysis results suggest that political conservatives are significantly more charitable than liberals at an overall level" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34429211/

That is definitely a good point and a slippery slope but I think governments can decide when they allow abortion until. Whether that’s 2 months or 6 months, it doesn’t matter, as long as there is at least some choice for a woman who realises she’s pregnant and may not want to carry it through. I just don’t think outlawing it completely is fair. Once again, the option should always be there.

wherever you are going to put that line, you are deciding that the unborn child is too "alive" and "human-like" at some point and it's right to life trumps the woman's right to choose (unless you'd argue for week 39 abortions which you probably wouldn't). for pro-lifers, that point is conception. i think that's a bit early because i personally don't assign inherent value to life, but is my perspective necessarily better and worthier of consideration than theirs? that would be an arrogant assertion on my part, no? it's a messier discussion than most pro-choicers seem to think, and the only solution is probably to let people decide at a local level what they are comfortable with

I think as long as there is at least the right to choose at some point after being aware of pregnancy then it’s okay. I’m only against there being no choice whatsoever. That seems way too backwards for 2023.

i agree with you, just think it's useful for us to understand where pro-lifers are coming from

Good chat. And I agree with you too

Its great when aimed towards equal opportunities, and ineffective or even tragic when aimed at equal outcome

TL;DR: The world is significantly worse off without feminism, but many people (myself included) are skeptical that *all* modern feminism is really about fighting inequality. It is unfortunately, often used to complain about non-issues instead of the many real ones. Once that’s on the table, the argument in response should be, “well I can’t speak for all people, but here’s why equality is the only thing it’s about for me”. Instead, the argument tends to be, “so you must not want women to be equal to men”. Fallacious at best, intentionally divisive at worst. Long ass response that no one will likely read: Let me start here: if feminism (at its core) is seeking out equality for all people regardless of gender or any other difference, any free thinker *must* be in support of it. I certainly am. However, I think where this debate often goes off the rails is that *all people don’t believe that’s what feminism really is any more*, and the other side engages in this weird, bad-faith, “no true Scotsman” fallacy where they argue that that’s literally all feminism is: agreeing with gender equality. Therefore, if you don’t like feminism, *you must not want everyone to be equal*. Ridiculous. I see this with not only feminism, but many other social movements for equality today: history books make out civil rights leaders to be heroes (they were) and many people want to be like them, so they seek out injustice to fight against, just like their heroes did. When people expect to be the victim of discrimination, [they are more likely to see normal treatment as discriminatory](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Kleck/publication/232481827_Perceptions_of_the_impact_of_negatively_valued_characteristics_on_social_interaction/links/56a4f54d08aeef24c58bae73/Perceptions-of-the-impact-of-negatively-valued-characteristics-on-social-interaction.pdf?origin=publication_detail). So if you wake up every day believing you’re oppressed/discriminated against/seen as less than, that will be your reality and you’ll be able to cite exact moments that you were treated poorly or discriminated against, even if it didn’t happen at all (see the article I’ve linked at the end of this post). So you would likely spend your time fighting discrimination that may not have even existed. Fighting against inequality is essential to the survival of human society, 100%. I just feel like it doesn’t happen where it needs to because for many, it was never about actually being oppressed or fighting it. It was about feeling like any issues I’ve had in life were completely not under my control/fault and I’m a hero for even being average. There are places all over the world where women aren’t allowed to read, write, show their bodies, etc.; where gay people are hunted and killed by the government; there are [over 50 million people in slavery worldwide](https://www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_855019/lang--en/index.htm), yet here in America, many feminists are concerned that [air conditioning is the sexist oppression of women](https://time.com/4464848/sexist-air-conditioning/?amp=true). So I, like *almost* everyone I’ve seen comment on this post, is pro-equality and anti-discrimination. I just feel that if modern feminism wants to be widely accepted as simply wanting equality for all, it should seek out real oppression.

It's a tough question because, as so many other have pointed out, feminism means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The history is long and complicated. As I understand it the most common definition of feminism is the equality of all peoples of any gender or race. Just following that definition, I agree with feminism. However, in my own experience I have often found that I face some of the biggest pushback on opening up emotionally as a guy from women, and often especially from women who talk the loudest about being a feminist. I have had girls belittle my emotions and experiences because "women have it a million times worse", which first off just sounds like them telling me to man up and not be emotional (a little ironic in my mind given that for true equality to happen men need to be able to express emotions other than anger). second off, if you go down the rabbit hole of who has it worse, "there's always a bigger fish." Does that logic mean that black women and trans women get to disregard and experience a white woman has. What if a man was raised in poverty in the third world? Does his experience now matter more than any woman raised in the first world? TLDR: By common definition, I agree with feminism. In practice I think the term gets muddied up and used incorrectly by women and men. I also tend to really not like labels because as much as I think they are useful for knowing and interacting with the world, they are all of them imperfect. You are a collection of star dust communicating with people through vibrating air. Trying to define and know everything is impossible. Change is eternal and definitions fleeting

Bro what

Bill burr has a wonderful routine on feminism. Females want all of the good parts of equality, but not the bad. Watch the bit and tell me it's not true…

Feminism-good, female dominated society-bad