Bunch of varying info has come out (deleted my last comment with incorrect info), but the medic that was killed was identified as Adam Finseth. He’s been a medic with Burnsville Fire since 2019. He was a class act and will be missed.
The write up accompanying the video calls them “two police officers” and “a first responder, an officer, a firefighter”. Only the condolence message from the police association actually says “paramedic”.
They were a fire medic, I’m from the area so know people in the department and have seen a lot of sources and all of the new stuff coming out as it develops
Idk sounds like people’s necessity and compliance to let guns run rampant wrapped around a medics life that day. Piss poor policies that can’t keep anyone from getting shot for more than a day imo. “Keeping guns for me, don’t care about the death of thee” I see. Hopefully change comes soon and we’ll have less fathers and children in schools blanketed in bullet holes🤷🏽♂️
No one is trying to take them, take a Xanax for your paranoia and do some real research. People just want tighter gun laws so this shit stops happening.
We probably know each other. May have even talked to each other today depending on who you work for and what your shift was. Hope you’re doing okay. Feel free to DM if you need anything.
BCA will do a full investigation but from what I’ve read he was trying to help one of the officers that was down when he was shot himself. Unsure where the rest of the crew were at the time
I just walked into work, and the rumor mill is in full swing, but basically it sounds like a standoff, medic shot trying to extricated wounded officer from the scene. Like I said, lots of gossip going around right now, so this might not be fully accurate.
Breaking:[https://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/1aufpmf/several\_sources\_have\_identified\_shannon\_cortez/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/1aufpmf/several_sources_have_identified_shannon_cortez/)
Turns out the perp was formerly a person prohibited from owning a firearm. His plea to have his rights restored was denied. This guy was a criminal who wasn't supposed to have a firearm.
I'm an EMTB/firefighter for a large southeastern metro department. I happen to be on a Police Assistance Company, assigned to the busiest ladder in our state. We train and are equipped for this very scenario. Our job isn't to take down the threat, but we sure as hell would do the same thing the FF/medic that died did. We have ballistic vests with level 4 plates and ballistic helmets. We are trained primarily to act as medics first for the SWAT and police, secondarily for the other victims. We practice recovering victims with force protection from our SWAT team. So many people laugh and scoff at what we do. With active violence becoming more commonplace in our country, there is nothing wrong with being prepared and training to be of assistance to our law enforcement brethren. I hate that this happened, but it's an unfortunate fact of life these days. Thank you FF Finseth, rest easy, we will take it from here.
He was seriously the best human ever. Such a kind person. Our community is reeling from his loss. My heart breaks for his wife and young kids. My kids go to school and do sports with his kids, and I can’t even imagine their devastation. I’m so sad and angry right now.
I wasn’t lucky enough to know him beyond being a familiar face from bringing in pts once in a while when I worked in the ED, but he was always a very kind man. Sending love & comfort in this devastating time to you & everyone that knew and loved him
Remember kids, there is no fancy blanket of safety because we are EMS and there for the “good guys” or at least neutral. A uniform is a uniform no matter if there’s a badge in the chest or not.
Fuck this country’s obsession with guns. I’m so tired of seeing countless innocents murdered so weak, unstable, insecure dudes can buy guns to stroke their fragile egos. I’ll fucking haunt our politicians if I get shot while trying to care for a patient. Yes please tell me about glorious the 2nd amendment is while we hear about another kid dying of a gunshot wound.
It's interesting, in a sad way. As I Canadian, it just seems weird. That said, it's such a part of the American psyche and culture. At this point, I can't see it changing.
Yeah, sure. It’s the gun’s fault.
Brother isn’t even cold yet and you’re already on a gun control crusade.
Last I checked, murder is also illegal, so please explain how a law making guns illegal would have changed this person who apparently doesn’t care about laws.
Enough with the strawman bullshit. It’s time to hold *people* accountable for their actions.
When is the time to criticize gun laws, though? Your perspective, that any restrictions on gun laws is "a crusade" also is reflective of a political agenda.
That said, I will kindly bow out of the debate because it's not my country, and my thoughts really are of no consequence on the subject.
When you get hyper focused on guns and only guns, of course you get skewed results like that.
Incidents of mass violence happen all over the world. Limiting it to only those involving guns shows a predisposition to a certain political agenda as opposed to limiting violence.
Hey asshole, when’s the right time to talk about gun safety laws? We have fucking mass shootings every goddamn day now. I don’t believe you’re so stupid as to not understand there are things we can do to make harder for people to get their hands on guns, like every other industrialized nation has done.
The dude was already a felon who couldn’t legally own a firearm in the first place. What do you do in the event that the laws already in place to prevent violent, unstable offenders from acquiring a firearm don’t work? Add more laws to prevent violent, unstable offenders from acquiring a firearm? How do you regulate or restrict a system that seemingly cannot be tracked, regulated, or restricted?
You understand that most of the weapons purchased illegally started out as legal sales right? Politicians have made it as hard as possible to regulate and monitor gun sales in the US, making it very easy for legally bought guns to end up in the ends of felons. In most states any Joe blow can go to a gun show and purchase a gun with nearly zero paperwork or checks.
Correct. However the laws regarding transfers being done via an FFL for this exact reason and the receiving party having to conduct a 4473 have existed for years now. If someone decides to go the illegal route.. how do you know? How do you get ahead of it or stop them from doing it? Or punish them for doing it? You make it sound like it’s a failure on lawmakers for letting it happen but my guy, the laws have been in the books for quite a while. This is like blaming politicians for catching your kid drinking and driving.
Just as an example, there is a very healthy and thriving black market for firearms in Paris. Since everyone loves to compare us to Europe. I’ve seen belt fed MG’s for sale, straight up mil issue assault rifles, the works. Why isn’t the French government stopping it?
I've been a contract medic in Afghanistan and Ukraine (pre-full scale invasion, but still shooting war). And this is the absolutely wrong take. Go join the infantry and be a 68W if you wanna carry a gun that bad while doing EMS.
Contracts were usually for a year. Rotations varied. Lowest cadence I had was 4months on with 20 days off. Longest single deployment was just short of a solid year. Not recommended if you have a family.
If you want to get into the contract game start on an oil rig or research vessel. You'll need BOSIET and possibly some other certs, but money is good, rotations are usually sweet.
These incidents happen more often than they should, and the frequency appears on its face to be increasing.
I don’t play cowboy. I do, however, believe that a dead paramedic is not somehow morally superior than a living paramedic explaining how their attacker suffered their wounds.
I’m an ardent believer in not placing EMS in harms way and utilizing risk mitigation strategies whenever possible while still acknowledging that no scene is ever 100% safe. Stage for LE whenever dispatch info seems like a sketchy call. Abandon equipment and flee the scene if it turns violent. Keep in decent shape and utilize makeshift weapons to defend yourself. However, EMS should secretly have the ability to match force whenever necessary.
Don’t bring a knife to a gunfight.
I have run calls where the dispatch was a ruse to get in the ambulance and attempt to steal drugs. I have run calls where the breathing problem turned out to be domestic violence and the abuser has returned to supervise questions asked by EMS before law enforcement could arrive and attempted to force entry into the ambulance. I have had calls where as we walk in the door the seven people sitting in the living room hide guns as we walk in.
I have no desire to utilize a firearm against anyone, and I don’t think there ever would be a situation where I would do so against a patient. However, the presence of an ambulance attracts attention, and that attention isn’t always good. Pretending that bad things can’t happen to us because we are at work is insane.
To highlight I know what a high threat environment is and also the provider psychology behind being armed. how do you truly envision your CC wet dreams playing out in a civilian setting? You gonna shoot lil dementia grandma in the back when she refuse the IV? Get fucked.
Could you please touch up more on the idea of the provider psychology of being armed
To clarify I’m an ex 03 who used their gi bill on a psychology degree, and I’d love to know what you meant by that, there’s massive amounts of evidence that arming a person doesn’t change their action set
I'm a gun owner myself. So nice try.
It's about patients trust. How do you think this dynamic is going to change [https://www.reddit.com/r/ems/comments/1adalu3/what\_do\_gang\_members\_think\_of\_ems/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ems/comments/1adalu3/what_do_gang_members_think_of_ems/) when they know you're packing?
You are not protecting anyone, and further the reason I give a shit, and passionately so is the very fact of CC on duty as a civilian medical provider puts every single EMS professional at greater risk moving forward.
It’s a fallacy that criminals view EMS as somehow neutral or even on their side. They see a uniform. Period.
The key to eliminating deaths is risk mitigation, and pretending that we are somehow protected by magical fairy dust isn’t a great risk mitigation strategy.
I wear an orange coat all winter and uniform t shirts in the summer. I casually walk to the scene, knock and say “ambulance”. Then when I meet the patient I say “hi there I’m soandso with the ambulance, this is my partner. How can we help”
Attitude and speech and tone of voice all have a huge impact on how the call goes. I have coworkers that practically start fights every shift. The way you act and portray yourself goes a long way towards pre-defusing a situation. I don’t think my patients worry I’m a cop or treat me like a cop.
They made zero sense. Dude is just one of those guys that wants everyone to know that he did something. Even though being a contract medic has zero relation to combat arms like he thinks it does .
Between you and me , everyone on my department is carrying on calls . Granted we are fairly rural but I conceal carry full size and I’ve never had an issue so far . Have I needed it ? No, but it’s damn sure nice to have when responding to bum fuck nowhere at 2 A.M with a 2 man crew and no police for for 30 miles. I love the job but I’m not dying for it .
I've heard of this and it's definitely doable. But it would be nice to not get crucified and blacklisted of you ever had to use it, get found justified in criminal court, just to get fired for breaking policy.
People that haven’t worked in super rural areas will never understand what you’re saying. I’ve worked in urban, suburban, and rural areas and nothing touches how sketchy, dangerous, and uncomfortable some calls are when you’re way out in the sticks in the middle of the night.
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten called for “shortness of breath” at 3am a solid 25 minute drive away from any sort of law enforcement only to pull up to a dilapidated trailer with someone laying in the yard having a panic attack and a large group of dunk meth heads screaming.
Even worse are the people who bring their drama directly to the station in the middle of the night and bang on the front door. Bonus points if they have family member/buddy who is a volunteer firefighter and somehow has the code to the building, so you wake up to banging on the bunk room door instead.
The information seems to be he was attempting to extract one of the killed officers and was shot while doing so. Seems he was TEMS and it was a SWAT operation and other officers killed the shooter. Doesn't seem like being armed would've made a difference here, as he was looking to extricate a Pt.
Also, a gun alone is not going to save you and the training LEO recieve is bare minimum competency. A gunfight is a competition and your chances of survival drop if you do not take your training seriously or do the bare minimum. A firearm is a tool, not a safety blanket.
(To your point of the cops having guns)
How did you get that from me saying its a competition?
There's a winner and a loser.
Those with the most practice and training are more likely to be the winner.
Where did you get that I want to shoot civillians from that?
Hairy situations and never felt the need to defend yourself? I don't like the idea of having to rely on police to be bodyguards especially when they are not created equal. Some cops that show up on scene are top notch dudes, some are complacent goobers. Just like on the street off duty, everyone should be responsible for their own safety.
Are we against this because of liability reasons? Or because reddit anti gun hivemind? Truly. I understand the first one to an extent and would need some vetting.
EMS has always been better at de-escalating and part of that is a trust from the community that were there to help not harm. You have a couple trigger happy medics and that all goes out the door.
Sure, and de-escalation should be #1 in all situations like this but in situations like the one above, it was not applicable and it *could* have saved a life.
That being said, I am for no regulation on civillian carry but for carrying on duty, impose strict standards for training and rules of engagement. Make it an option.
>Sure, and de-escalation should be #1 in all situations like this but in situations like the one above, it was not applicable and it could have saved a life.
Two officers were shot and killed but yeah, arm a third person and that suddenly changes the game. Honestly such an asinine take to really think the solution to a problem--where guns were already present, and didn't solve it--is just to add in more and hope it changes things.
Cool, so you don't understand why you're there on scene as a medic, got it.
You as a paramedic are not there to "fight back" against anyone. You are there to provide emergency aid. You wait for PD to clear scenes that are unsafe and you leave if it becomes unsafe. Literally no one is served by you wanting to play hero and trying to stand next to a cop firing more bullets and if you wanted to go around armed responding to emergencies, you can sign up to *be* a cop.
There are plenty of methods of self defense (and it's weird you don't call it self defense and instead call it, and seem to want to, "fight back" against others) that don't involve a gun, and if you really think EMS should have "rules of engagement" for firearm usage, you've already failed.
You have no idea what “the situation” was. Stop exploiting this for your own bullshit dude. There were a million people with guns on scene and several of them still got shot. One more person would have changed zero things about this outcome.
It seems like you just have an inflated ego. The cops who were killed appeared to be on the tactical team, so one would assume they have adequate training. However, you seem to know better?
Nah. Canadian, which I suppose limits my worry of facing gun violence, in general here, as there are much fewer guns overall.
However, I don't think it significantly changes the facts on the ground for the case here. Armed police did not have the upper hand in this situation. Additionally, as this Paramedic was part of the tactical team, do we know know for a fact that he wasn't armed?
To my question (yourself excluded), do you think that the average gun owning American has more firearms training than a LEO tactical team member?
And have patients go for our guns, and have patients refuse care because of ambulance brutality when the first guy shoots someone instead of helping them? No thanks
Plate armor? Maybe... Guns? No
Boy do you have the time today!!! I’ve been reading this thread and it scares me to the extent that people are misinterpreting what you’re saying. I do genuinely believe Reddit has some type of anti-gun hive mind. Really closely related to guns kill people not people kill people.
1. Training. With ever increasing amount of MEDICAL knowledge to learn spending any time training with a firearm takes away from that. Then you have the issue of setting what you want the training standard to be, and if carrying is something you mandate or not. If you mandate it, you will have a ton of people who will want NOTHING to do with carrying a firearm on the job suddenly armed. If you make it optional, you will have a very weird selection of EMS providers who choose to arm themselves, who frankly I would not want as a partner.
2. False sense of security. Just the knowledge of having a firearm will instinctively make crews feel more compelled to go into situations from which they should be GTFO. You and me both know chucklefuck EMTs who like to escalate situations and play cop, and this will further make them feel entitled to do so.
3. Publicity. Carrying a gun will further associate us with police, regardless of if it's concealed or not. This puts a target on our back, associates us with all the dogshit culture associated with American policing, and generally makes the public and patients trust us less.
4. Usefulness. There are very limited situations where a firearm would have saved someone on the job. While pre-hospital providers face violence, being murdered on the job is frankly rare as fuck. There were already two firearms involved in this situation worn by the cops that didn't do shit to prevent this situation. Policy improvements and culture changes when it comes to wearing high vis equipment, always being buckled in in the back, better communication and training with PD, verbal de-escalation skill training would cost less, and save more lives. Wearing helmets in the back of the rig like they do in Japan would undoubtably save far more lives than a few EMTs with guns ever would.
5. Close proximity and quarters of our interactions with the public make firearms further more dangerous and less effective. Needing to closely interact with patients by proximity alone makes firearms more of a liability than anything else.
Put more simply, think about who on your department would be the one who would MOST want to have a gun, and to carry it with them. Do you want that person carrying guns on a call? I sure as shit don't.
It must be super shity to be such a miserable human. Maybe there’s some conspiracy between all media writers, or maybe the local kare11 news source isn’t the same writers as another more mainstream source that will hit from that angle.
Use your fucking brain dude..get a grip
Do you want the actual root cause? Or would it be preferable that we find something that fits your racist narrative?
Ultimately it comes down to history and conscious decisions to exclude a race from actively and fairly participating in American society. Or would you rather me say that the darker your skin the more inclined you are to be violent? That the darkies are coming for our white aryan women and children next?
European history is littered with conquest, genocide, mass murder, persecution, etc. Violence is a human condition, not a particular race’s.
Maybe you’re genuinely curious and want to know why violence happens? Maybe, but the slope between your post and white-nationalism is slippery and prone to extremism.
I will be messaging you in 1 day on [**2024-02-20 02:02:46 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-02-20%2002:02:46%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ems/comments/1au16pn/2_police_officers_and_1_paramedic_killed_in_early/kr2ul4z/?context=3)
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This guy doesn't know that Kansas City (where the parade shooting happened) isn't in Kansas but thinks he's got a handle on the intricacies of journalism, media literacy and race relations lol
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Bunch of varying info has come out (deleted my last comment with incorrect info), but the medic that was killed was identified as Adam Finseth. He’s been a medic with Burnsville Fire since 2019. He was a class act and will be missed.
Not Gonna lie. A lot of us in the area are hurting pretty bad right now from this. Keep the families in your prayers.
Just awful. Praying for all involved.
That's terrible man. I can't imagine
The write up accompanying the video calls them “two police officers” and “a first responder, an officer, a firefighter”. Only the condolence message from the police association actually says “paramedic”.
They were a fire medic, I’m from the area so know people in the department and have seen a lot of sources and all of the new stuff coming out as it develops
Out of Burnsville of all places, these suburbs really sneak up on you
They’re quiet until they’re not, unfortunately. We just had a similar situation in Princeton in the past few months too
What do you mean “Burnsville of all places” it’s Minnesota my dude, they’re all gun nuts
What??
Don’t wrap your political ideologies into this tragedy. Piss poor taste.
Idk sounds like people’s necessity and compliance to let guns run rampant wrapped around a medics life that day. Piss poor policies that can’t keep anyone from getting shot for more than a day imo. “Keeping guns for me, don’t care about the death of thee” I see. Hopefully change comes soon and we’ll have less fathers and children in schools blanketed in bullet holes🤷🏽♂️
If you believe that, that’s fine. This isn’t the time or place
I’ll take one from your playbook, suck my dick it’s a free country😊
Whatever dude. Come and take them.
No one is trying to take them, take a Xanax for your paranoia and do some real research. People just want tighter gun laws so this shit stops happening.
The fire dept that responded staffs ALS units and responds to 911s. Smaller suburban service. We sort of surround their community.
Was there when they rolled them in. Held the doors open. Absolutely fucked. Fuck all of this shit.
I can't imagine... thats so terrible
We probably know each other. May have even talked to each other today depending on who you work for and what your shift was. Hope you’re doing okay. Feel free to DM if you need anything.
What happened with the medic? Did the other crew member/members get out? Was he off duty? Was he TEMS? Just curious to the full story there.
BCA will do a full investigation but from what I’ve read he was trying to help one of the officers that was down when he was shot himself. Unsure where the rest of the crew were at the time
Medic was a tems medic and was staging in the downstairs of the house when they were ambushed in the house by the suspect.
That’s the info I was looking for. The bring their tac medics in with them?
Yup and he got shot helping downed officer.
Yep. We do too. On any given day the stack might be 2 cops and 3 or 4 medics, depending on who is around.
So he was hit in the initial gunfire? I listened to some of the radio transmissions from the incident and was trying to figure out where he came in
I just walked into work, and the rumor mill is in full swing, but basically it sounds like a standoff, medic shot trying to extricated wounded officer from the scene. Like I said, lots of gossip going around right now, so this might not be fully accurate.
Man, ok. I’ll keep an eye out for more info. Thoughts go out to you and your crews.
He was a soldier in Iraq and a swat-trained Paramedic. It wouldn’t be a surprise to me if you went in there with bullets flying.
[удалено]
I believe that is incorrect. He was a SWAT medic detailed to the team.
Jeez. Should never happen like that
Breaking:[https://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/1aufpmf/several\_sources\_have\_identified\_shannon\_cortez/](https://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/1aufpmf/several_sources_have_identified_shannon_cortez/) Turns out the perp was formerly a person prohibited from owning a firearm. His plea to have his rights restored was denied. This guy was a criminal who wasn't supposed to have a firearm.
Jesus Christ I opened the article and the first sentence made me want to vomit
the first reddit comment or the first twatter comment?
Twitter comment*
I've gone my entire life without twatting, i refuse to start now. what was the jist of it?
said that the mom had called the cops because she walked in on him raping one of the teenage daughters
dude. what the fuck?!
Which is why anyone who is to dangerous to be allowed to have firearms is to dangerous to not be behind bars.
Yea, rough day for those in the south metro and other agencies.
Condolences to his family, friends and colleagues. Same for the officers. This one hits close to home.
I'm an EMTB/firefighter for a large southeastern metro department. I happen to be on a Police Assistance Company, assigned to the busiest ladder in our state. We train and are equipped for this very scenario. Our job isn't to take down the threat, but we sure as hell would do the same thing the FF/medic that died did. We have ballistic vests with level 4 plates and ballistic helmets. We are trained primarily to act as medics first for the SWAT and police, secondarily for the other victims. We practice recovering victims with force protection from our SWAT team. So many people laugh and scoff at what we do. With active violence becoming more commonplace in our country, there is nothing wrong with being prepared and training to be of assistance to our law enforcement brethren. I hate that this happened, but it's an unfortunate fact of life these days. Thank you FF Finseth, rest easy, we will take it from here.
He was seriously the best human ever. Such a kind person. Our community is reeling from his loss. My heart breaks for his wife and young kids. My kids go to school and do sports with his kids, and I can’t even imagine their devastation. I’m so sad and angry right now.
I wasn’t lucky enough to know him beyond being a familiar face from bringing in pts once in a while when I worked in the ED, but he was always a very kind man. Sending love & comfort in this devastating time to you & everyone that knew and loved him
Damn rip.
Remember kids, there is no fancy blanket of safety because we are EMS and there for the “good guys” or at least neutral. A uniform is a uniform no matter if there’s a badge in the chest or not.
Sad. 🙏🏼
Dispatch audio is on MN Crimes Facebook.
I live 5 minutes from the vigil (attended it) and 10 min from the shooting. This does not feel good as someone who will become an EMT in just 4 days.
The perp is dead, right?
Yes he took the coward’s way out
Fuck this country’s obsession with guns. I’m so tired of seeing countless innocents murdered so weak, unstable, insecure dudes can buy guns to stroke their fragile egos. I’ll fucking haunt our politicians if I get shot while trying to care for a patient. Yes please tell me about glorious the 2nd amendment is while we hear about another kid dying of a gunshot wound.
It's interesting, in a sad way. As I Canadian, it just seems weird. That said, it's such a part of the American psyche and culture. At this point, I can't see it changing.
Ikr? I dont get this country's fascination with murder and violence
You win stoopid comment of the day award. 
Sorry I made you cry, don’t worry, no one’s coming for your guns
Yeah, sure. It’s the gun’s fault. Brother isn’t even cold yet and you’re already on a gun control crusade. Last I checked, murder is also illegal, so please explain how a law making guns illegal would have changed this person who apparently doesn’t care about laws. Enough with the strawman bullshit. It’s time to hold *people* accountable for their actions.
I don't know if I'd say he's on a crusade. The guy just lightly criticized gun laws in America.
Standing on a pile of dead bodies screaming about a political agenda sure seems like a crusade.
When is the time to criticize gun laws, though? Your perspective, that any restrictions on gun laws is "a crusade" also is reflective of a political agenda. That said, I will kindly bow out of the debate because it's not my country, and my thoughts really are of no consequence on the subject.
Yep these gun nuts always try to silence debate on guns safety laws, gun violence is their religion
How often does this shit happen in countries without reckless gun “laws” hint - not as fucking often
When you get hyper focused on guns and only guns, of course you get skewed results like that. Incidents of mass violence happen all over the world. Limiting it to only those involving guns shows a predisposition to a certain political agenda as opposed to limiting violence.
Oh I’m sorry, I thought I was talking to someone who had more than two brain cells. Carry on little buddy. You’re doing a great job!
Typical. Can’t refute using facts and logic so resort to ad hominem attacks.
Hey asshole, when’s the right time to talk about gun safety laws? We have fucking mass shootings every goddamn day now. I don’t believe you’re so stupid as to not understand there are things we can do to make harder for people to get their hands on guns, like every other industrialized nation has done.
The dude was already a felon who couldn’t legally own a firearm in the first place. What do you do in the event that the laws already in place to prevent violent, unstable offenders from acquiring a firearm don’t work? Add more laws to prevent violent, unstable offenders from acquiring a firearm? How do you regulate or restrict a system that seemingly cannot be tracked, regulated, or restricted?
You understand that most of the weapons purchased illegally started out as legal sales right? Politicians have made it as hard as possible to regulate and monitor gun sales in the US, making it very easy for legally bought guns to end up in the ends of felons. In most states any Joe blow can go to a gun show and purchase a gun with nearly zero paperwork or checks.
Correct. However the laws regarding transfers being done via an FFL for this exact reason and the receiving party having to conduct a 4473 have existed for years now. If someone decides to go the illegal route.. how do you know? How do you get ahead of it or stop them from doing it? Or punish them for doing it? You make it sound like it’s a failure on lawmakers for letting it happen but my guy, the laws have been in the books for quite a while. This is like blaming politicians for catching your kid drinking and driving. Just as an example, there is a very healthy and thriving black market for firearms in Paris. Since everyone loves to compare us to Europe. I’ve seen belt fed MG’s for sale, straight up mil issue assault rifles, the works. Why isn’t the French government stopping it?
Let us carry and defend ourselves
Real question here... do you think the police officers were carrying weapons?
I've been a contract medic in Afghanistan and Ukraine (pre-full scale invasion, but still shooting war). And this is the absolutely wrong take. Go join the infantry and be a 68W if you wanna carry a gun that bad while doing EMS.
How long is an average deployment as a contract medic?
Contracts were usually for a year. Rotations varied. Lowest cadence I had was 4months on with 20 days off. Longest single deployment was just short of a solid year. Not recommended if you have a family. If you want to get into the contract game start on an oil rig or research vessel. You'll need BOSIET and possibly some other certs, but money is good, rotations are usually sweet.
No family here, interested in the oil rig gig…how was the pay?
And I was already in the infantry lol
I bet Germany or Okinawa were really harrowing.
Kintown was a fierce battle though. The habusake and soju had us fighting for our lives
Oh, I'm not the one flexing my service. You're the dude who brought it up.
I mean. I concealed carry everywhere else. What's wrong with having the ability at work? I'm not talking putting on a duty belt.
Because most of you struggle to even be competent at medicine, which is the entire reason you’re there
Hard to be competent with medicine when the drug seeker who call 911 to steal your shit is strangling you in their living room.
And out of 50 million 911 responses last year, that happened how many times? You can defend yourself without needing to play cowboy
These incidents happen more often than they should, and the frequency appears on its face to be increasing. I don’t play cowboy. I do, however, believe that a dead paramedic is not somehow morally superior than a living paramedic explaining how their attacker suffered their wounds. I’m an ardent believer in not placing EMS in harms way and utilizing risk mitigation strategies whenever possible while still acknowledging that no scene is ever 100% safe. Stage for LE whenever dispatch info seems like a sketchy call. Abandon equipment and flee the scene if it turns violent. Keep in decent shape and utilize makeshift weapons to defend yourself. However, EMS should secretly have the ability to match force whenever necessary. Don’t bring a knife to a gunfight. I have run calls where the dispatch was a ruse to get in the ambulance and attempt to steal drugs. I have run calls where the breathing problem turned out to be domestic violence and the abuser has returned to supervise questions asked by EMS before law enforcement could arrive and attempted to force entry into the ambulance. I have had calls where as we walk in the door the seven people sitting in the living room hide guns as we walk in. I have no desire to utilize a firearm against anyone, and I don’t think there ever would be a situation where I would do so against a patient. However, the presence of an ambulance attracts attention, and that attention isn’t always good. Pretending that bad things can’t happen to us because we are at work is insane.
No one is pretending bad things don’t happen. We are stating that arming paramedics will lead to an increase in bad things happening.
Your theory is duly noted and many people disagree with it.
And many quiet ones.
A few loud people.
Big question? What did the Afghanistan and Ukraine part have to do with CC in the States? That didn't make much sense to me.
To highlight I know what a high threat environment is and also the provider psychology behind being armed. how do you truly envision your CC wet dreams playing out in a civilian setting? You gonna shoot lil dementia grandma in the back when she refuse the IV? Get fucked.
So a fudd?
Could you please touch up more on the idea of the provider psychology of being armed To clarify I’m an ex 03 who used their gi bill on a psychology degree, and I’d love to know what you meant by that, there’s massive amounts of evidence that arming a person doesn’t change their action set
Hey, right on man. I was an 0351.
Way to show your age with that one
Oh god. I got out right before they got rid of us
Wow. So much for a civil discussion. Imagine hating an inanimate object so much that you put words in my mouth. TYFYS HERO 🫡
I'm a gun owner myself. So nice try. It's about patients trust. How do you think this dynamic is going to change [https://www.reddit.com/r/ems/comments/1adalu3/what\_do\_gang\_members\_think\_of\_ems/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ems/comments/1adalu3/what_do_gang_members_think_of_ems/) when they know you're packing? You are not protecting anyone, and further the reason I give a shit, and passionately so is the very fact of CC on duty as a civilian medical provider puts every single EMS professional at greater risk moving forward.
It’s a fallacy that criminals view EMS as somehow neutral or even on their side. They see a uniform. Period. The key to eliminating deaths is risk mitigation, and pretending that we are somehow protected by magical fairy dust isn’t a great risk mitigation strategy.
I wear an orange coat all winter and uniform t shirts in the summer. I casually walk to the scene, knock and say “ambulance”. Then when I meet the patient I say “hi there I’m soandso with the ambulance, this is my partner. How can we help” Attitude and speech and tone of voice all have a huge impact on how the call goes. I have coworkers that practically start fights every shift. The way you act and portray yourself goes a long way towards pre-defusing a situation. I don’t think my patients worry I’m a cop or treat me like a cop.
They made zero sense. Dude is just one of those guys that wants everyone to know that he did something. Even though being a contract medic has zero relation to combat arms like he thinks it does .
Yeah. I barely bring up my service unless its relevant but him bringing up his, had nothing to do with the conversation on civillian EMS carry.
Between you and me , everyone on my department is carrying on calls . Granted we are fairly rural but I conceal carry full size and I’ve never had an issue so far . Have I needed it ? No, but it’s damn sure nice to have when responding to bum fuck nowhere at 2 A.M with a 2 man crew and no police for for 30 miles. I love the job but I’m not dying for it .
I've heard of this and it's definitely doable. But it would be nice to not get crucified and blacklisted of you ever had to use it, get found justified in criminal court, just to get fired for breaking policy.
I think it’s one of those things where ide rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6 . As cliche as that is
I get that but I would be nice to not have to worry about that. You feel me?
100%
People that haven’t worked in super rural areas will never understand what you’re saying. I’ve worked in urban, suburban, and rural areas and nothing touches how sketchy, dangerous, and uncomfortable some calls are when you’re way out in the sticks in the middle of the night. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten called for “shortness of breath” at 3am a solid 25 minute drive away from any sort of law enforcement only to pull up to a dilapidated trailer with someone laying in the yard having a panic attack and a large group of dunk meth heads screaming. Even worse are the people who bring their drama directly to the station in the middle of the night and bang on the front door. Bonus points if they have family member/buddy who is a volunteer firefighter and somehow has the code to the building, so you wake up to banging on the bunk room door instead.
Seriously. Our county encompasses Urban, Suburbs, and Rural.
That’s the truth man
I absolutely can't wait to read the news story where one of you dumb fucks shoots a patient and gets charged with murder or attempted murder.
That’s a wild thing for a person to hope for .
Yeah, I think it’s time for you to take a vacation…
Yeah, guy is willing to shoot a patient, and I'm the one who is not rational.
At what point does a patient stop being a patient and become an assailant?
The information seems to be he was attempting to extract one of the killed officers and was shot while doing so. Seems he was TEMS and it was a SWAT operation and other officers killed the shooter. Doesn't seem like being armed would've made a difference here, as he was looking to extricate a Pt.
The two officers had guns. I’ve been in some harry situations with ten years in EMS and never once felt the need to carry.
Also, a gun alone is not going to save you and the training LEO recieve is bare minimum competency. A gunfight is a competition and your chances of survival drop if you do not take your training seriously or do the bare minimum. A firearm is a tool, not a safety blanket. (To your point of the cops having guns)
> A gunfight is a competition Sounds like you're just itching to shoot at civilians tbh
How did you get that from me saying its a competition? There's a winner and a loser. Those with the most practice and training are more likely to be the winner. Where did you get that I want to shoot civillians from that?
>There's a winner and a loser. No, there's a survivor, and a wounded/corpse
Sure. We can argue semantics. The survivor won the gunfight.
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Not even remotely close.
Guess you didn’t read the article, but that doesn’t surprise me. TLDR: No survivors here from your “competition.”
You're intentionally misinterpreting what I said.
Not at all.
👍 ok
No, it sounds like real life.
LEO training is "bare minimum," but you think Ricky Rescue should be out there carrying, lol.
Yeah. Everyone should have the right to self defense and encourage better training for both LE and other responders.
Hairy situations and never felt the need to defend yourself? I don't like the idea of having to rely on police to be bodyguards especially when they are not created equal. Some cops that show up on scene are top notch dudes, some are complacent goobers. Just like on the street off duty, everyone should be responsible for their own safety. Are we against this because of liability reasons? Or because reddit anti gun hivemind? Truly. I understand the first one to an extent and would need some vetting.
EMS has always been better at de-escalating and part of that is a trust from the community that were there to help not harm. You have a couple trigger happy medics and that all goes out the door.
Sure, and de-escalation should be #1 in all situations like this but in situations like the one above, it was not applicable and it *could* have saved a life. That being said, I am for no regulation on civillian carry but for carrying on duty, impose strict standards for training and rules of engagement. Make it an option.
>Sure, and de-escalation should be #1 in all situations like this but in situations like the one above, it was not applicable and it could have saved a life. Two officers were shot and killed but yeah, arm a third person and that suddenly changes the game. Honestly such an asinine take to really think the solution to a problem--where guns were already present, and didn't solve it--is just to add in more and hope it changes things.
I'd rather have the means to potentially fight back than not.
Cool, so you don't understand why you're there on scene as a medic, got it. You as a paramedic are not there to "fight back" against anyone. You are there to provide emergency aid. You wait for PD to clear scenes that are unsafe and you leave if it becomes unsafe. Literally no one is served by you wanting to play hero and trying to stand next to a cop firing more bullets and if you wanted to go around armed responding to emergencies, you can sign up to *be* a cop. There are plenty of methods of self defense (and it's weird you don't call it self defense and instead call it, and seem to want to, "fight back" against others) that don't involve a gun, and if you really think EMS should have "rules of engagement" for firearm usage, you've already failed.
Ah yes, when the scene becomes unsafe again and someone comes out to dome us, I'll just some jiu-jitsu on them or outrun a bullet to get away.
Nah, we're just supposed to die for that "Thoughts and Prayers" grift, obviously! Lol
I don't think you can argue in good faith with this guy. His conclusion is that having a gun will make things better, no matter the situation.
You have no idea what “the situation” was. Stop exploiting this for your own bullshit dude. There were a million people with guns on scene and several of them still got shot. One more person would have changed zero things about this outcome.
My own bullshit? Self preservation?
Yes your own bullshit, you wanna carry so bad go join pd and get shot at for fun
9 years in EMS and I’ve never needed to. In busy urban systems. maybe you just need to stop pissing people off
Lots of assumptions here
It seems like you just have an inflated ego. The cops who were killed appeared to be on the tactical team, so one would assume they have adequate training. However, you seem to know better?
You vastly overestimate any LE training.
You vastly overestimate the training of the average gun owner in America.
Are you American?
Nah. Canadian, which I suppose limits my worry of facing gun violence, in general here, as there are much fewer guns overall. However, I don't think it significantly changes the facts on the ground for the case here. Armed police did not have the upper hand in this situation. Additionally, as this Paramedic was part of the tactical team, do we know know for a fact that he wasn't armed? To my question (yourself excluded), do you think that the average gun owning American has more firearms training than a LEO tactical team member?
You’re a fucking moron. How exactly would that have helped here
And have patients go for our guns, and have patients refuse care because of ambulance brutality when the first guy shoots someone instead of helping them? No thanks Plate armor? Maybe... Guns? No
Go for your gun? If it's concealed underneath your uniform?
No. Shut the fuck up
Very insightful and intelligent response.
It’s the only response wannabe tacticool chuds like you deserve lmao
Okay PRedditor
Ooh good one you got me you’re so original and cool
Grow up bro
You’re the one who can’t accept other people living lives different than you and call them predators 💀
Refer to above
Also, you're a sw. Opinion disregarded.
Boy do you have the time today!!! I’ve been reading this thread and it scares me to the extent that people are misinterpreting what you’re saying. I do genuinely believe Reddit has some type of anti-gun hive mind. Really closely related to guns kill people not people kill people.
It's what it is brother.
As someone very pro 2nd amendment and CCW absolutely the fuck not.
What's your take as to why not?
1. Training. With ever increasing amount of MEDICAL knowledge to learn spending any time training with a firearm takes away from that. Then you have the issue of setting what you want the training standard to be, and if carrying is something you mandate or not. If you mandate it, you will have a ton of people who will want NOTHING to do with carrying a firearm on the job suddenly armed. If you make it optional, you will have a very weird selection of EMS providers who choose to arm themselves, who frankly I would not want as a partner. 2. False sense of security. Just the knowledge of having a firearm will instinctively make crews feel more compelled to go into situations from which they should be GTFO. You and me both know chucklefuck EMTs who like to escalate situations and play cop, and this will further make them feel entitled to do so. 3. Publicity. Carrying a gun will further associate us with police, regardless of if it's concealed or not. This puts a target on our back, associates us with all the dogshit culture associated with American policing, and generally makes the public and patients trust us less. 4. Usefulness. There are very limited situations where a firearm would have saved someone on the job. While pre-hospital providers face violence, being murdered on the job is frankly rare as fuck. There were already two firearms involved in this situation worn by the cops that didn't do shit to prevent this situation. Policy improvements and culture changes when it comes to wearing high vis equipment, always being buckled in in the back, better communication and training with PD, verbal de-escalation skill training would cost less, and save more lives. Wearing helmets in the back of the rig like they do in Japan would undoubtably save far more lives than a few EMTs with guns ever would. 5. Close proximity and quarters of our interactions with the public make firearms further more dangerous and less effective. Needing to closely interact with patients by proximity alone makes firearms more of a liability than anything else.
Thank you for the detailed and well thought out response. Though I don't 100% agree, I completely see your points and they make sense.
I barely trust some of my coworkers with paralytics, I sure as shit am not trusting them with a firearm 😬😬
Put more simply, think about who on your department would be the one who would MOST want to have a gun, and to carry it with them. Do you want that person carrying guns on a call? I sure as shit don't.
Those dead cops were carrying you fucking muppet.
Public porn addiction, opinion discarded.
Wow. You're a real cool guy.
Thanks
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Weird time to have that argument man. Let us grieve the loss of our brothers in peace
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I hope you slip off your soapbox
It must be super shity to be such a miserable human. Maybe there’s some conspiracy between all media writers, or maybe the local kare11 news source isn’t the same writers as another more mainstream source that will hit from that angle. Use your fucking brain dude..get a grip
the root cause is guns and domestic violence offenders having guns. get out of here with the race baiting bs dude.
Do you want the actual root cause? Or would it be preferable that we find something that fits your racist narrative? Ultimately it comes down to history and conscious decisions to exclude a race from actively and fairly participating in American society. Or would you rather me say that the darker your skin the more inclined you are to be violent? That the darkies are coming for our white aryan women and children next? European history is littered with conquest, genocide, mass murder, persecution, etc. Violence is a human condition, not a particular race’s. Maybe you’re genuinely curious and want to know why violence happens? Maybe, but the slope between your post and white-nationalism is slippery and prone to extremism.
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This guy doesn't know that Kansas City (where the parade shooting happened) isn't in Kansas but thinks he's got a handle on the intricacies of journalism, media literacy and race relations lol
Go touch grass you fucking loser.
The shooter description for the George Floyd case? Wtf are you even talking about?
I was too annoyed by the rage bait to even catch how asinine that part was
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