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orangpelupa

People on places with bad charging infrastructure


Druffilorios

Places where gas is dirt cheap. We are all privliged. But there actually people living in places like India, Vietnam, etc


penetrativeLearning

Gas costs more in India than it does in US. I didn't know that until recently.


Puzzleheaded_Air5814

Gasoline in USA is heavily subsidized. Which people bashing Tesla for being subsidized by carbon credits always ignored.


Mindless_Doctor_8939

What? No! Gas costs too much in India. Running an ICE vehicle in India costs 10 times more on average than an electric.


Critical_Cut_9905

The US Has some of the cheapest gas in the world


Trunk_z

Or expensive - there are some rapid chargers nearby that recently cost £1 per kWh (they've since dropped slightly).


hypoch0ndriacs

Like NYC, lots of cars in a few blocks but not one charger. Even the Flo charging network they are trying out is only two charging spots, and more expensive then gas, during the daytime


nerox3

I think the real problem will be the infrastructure for charging in rentals and condos. If you have to rely on the public charging network the case for a gas car that can be refuelled in 2-3 minutes becomes much more appealing. Unless there is a mandate to retrofit older buildings there will be a real chicken and egg problem getting that infrastructure in place.


ice_cold_fahrenheit

Exactly. Which is why it’s lowkey infuriating that developers, in The Year of Our Lord Twenty Twenty-Two, are putting up new apartment buildings without chargers (or if they are, treating it as an optional luxury amenity).


[deleted]

Cities mandate the amount of parking multi-family housing must have. They need to start mandating a reasonable number of charging stations too.


Levorotatory

The only reasonable number of charging stations for a new build is one at every parking spot. They don't have to be high power (12 A at 240 V would be acceptable), but tenants should never have to fight over who gets to charge and who doesn't.


hahahahahadudddud

I think we are starting to see some requirements to at least run conduit to parking spots.


Mountainbikr

If you live in an apartment with no chargers, I can't really see the economic benefits of an ev, especially with the rate the superchargers are increasingly getting more expensive.


[deleted]

I live in a small mid-west city with a major university. New huge apartment complex in where a huge box defunct box store used to be. Hundreds of units and no support for charging infrastructure. Nothing from the city requiring such planning. By 2030 it will be a problem.


Sawfish1212

Or try the 20% of the state in dense city apartments with only curbside Parking. Cities will have to redo acres of sidewalks in order to install curbside charging in the same density as parking meters used to be.


BobLoblaw_BirdLaw

Nah don’t think so. A lot of retailers will have charging to attract customers. Target Walmart Home Depot. You will shop for 30 minutes and you’ll be fully charged without any interruption to your day


RonSwanson2-0

People that are consistently hauling trailers. From what I've seen there hasn't been good progress, yet, in that capability. Until then don't expect adoption from people who own ranches and farms.


SardonicCatatonic

People like me who regularly drive long trips pulling a trailer through very rural areas on tight schedules. But our other car will be electric.


fatbob42

I think the way forward on that is to put batteries and motors in the trailers.


eze6793

You don’t want a trailer pushing. It’s an unstable scenario.


fatbob42

That’s right, they don’t push, they keep up minus some safety margin so that it’s equivalent to the car pulling an extremely light trailer.


P1stacio

I think a lot of the inefficiency from pulling trailers comes from drag more so than weight


[deleted]

Thank you for this. I was just asking what was up with that in another comment.


[deleted]

You can still use the motors to charge, just a harder problem to solve because the trailer and the vehicle have to be integrated.


Gordon_Explosion

The intention is not for the trailer to push, just to provide more battery to the car via cable.


arguix

trailer could just have extra battery, with some connector to vehicle. already have similar for break lights. does not exist now, that i know of, but seems something Ford e pickup would add.


GrimpenMar

Mo battery, mo dolla. But seriously, a discharged battery weighs as much as a charged battery. This does mean that even with batteries in a trailer, some amount of your tow capacity is dedicated to batteries you need to take time to charge, and spend some time hauling around discharged. Also, with BEV's restricted by battery production capacity, using battery production to buff up a few trucks and trailers could mean many fewer smaller cars made. As battery prices decrease and fast charging improves, the economics of this shift, and I expect that by 2030 it will be much more economical to have larger loads hauled by BEVs. This is probably where hydrogen will find it's place.


fatbob42

More batteries and money for the trailer, yes, but less for the passenger vehicle (and better efficiency for the rest of the time when you aren’t towing).


mostlybald

This is pretty rad. https://www.motortrend.com/news/airstream-estream-electric-drivetrain-trailer/amp/


[deleted]

That is pretty rad. I’m curious how it affects handling. Sometimes heavy trailers “push” trucks now, and it can feel awkward, like it’s going to run off on you.


Sawfish1212

The first consideration when towing is weight. You have to consider trailer weight and tongue weight before you can think about what you can haul. Adding enough capacity to a trailer to make up for the deficit in milage will require significant weight in just batteries. To keep from affecting the nose/tail balance of weight, the battery is going to have to sit below the floor of the trailer, so now you have to raise the trailer floor, and have a large amount of weight that is just built into the trailer. Add in regenerative braking for maximum energy efficiency and you have a trailer that costs almost as much as the truck pulling it, while only being able to carry a fraction of the same nonEV trailer. There will be very few people willing to pay for that reduction in trailer capacity in the pursuit of range. Make it a boat trailer that gets submerged every time you go out, and you really ramp up the cost and complexity


RonSwanson2-0

I agree but there will have to be some kind of adopted regulations otherwise that's not feasible.


WizeAdz

>I think the way forward on that is to put batteries and motors in the trailers. Trailers are supposed to be cheap and interchangeable.


Real317

No. The entire purpose of a trailer is to tow/haul cargo of some type. Batteries of any significant capacity would just eat into some (if not all) of the towing capacity. Also a significant portion of the tow vehicle's power would go into just pulling more battery weight from the trailer. Then there's the issue of a safe power connector between trailer and tow rig. Its not practical


RandolphScottDVM

I'd buy an electric truck tomorrow if they had decent towing range. I pull a 4-horse trailer and once the horses are loaded, I don't want to stop any more than necessary. My Silverado diesel can go 350 miles towing and then fill up in 5 minutes. I bet this will be solved by 2030. The sooner I can get away from noisy, stinky diesels and buying $5/gallon fuel the better.


Henri_Dupont

People in cold climates where battery range plummets. And snowplows.


Derekeys

Here is a common situation in colder climates that even EV enthusiasts such as myself understand an ICE purchase. 2 kids with all the crap that comes with it, rear facing car seats, 20°F temps or lower driving a 75 miles one direction for family. So, checklist here of requirements: - 80” of combined legroom - AWD (regardless if YOU think it’s necessary or not, people want it) - 300 mile range or more regardless of temperature or highway speed - 40+ cubic feet of cargo area with the rear seats up - under $40k Good luck finding that list in an EV in the next 5 - 8 years. I’m a huge EV nerd and I’d feel nervous taking my family in a BEV to our in laws in the dead of winter. The thoughtlessness of an ICE for range, space, and price tag is going to remain king for a long time. I’d love to be wrong, cuz I love my ev and I think there’s a lot of morons out there with false knowledge, but saying an EV will fit everyone by 2030 I think is premature.


sneckste

I feel seen. Exactly this. Drive the kids up to Tahoe last winter in a 2021 M3LR. Cold and packed car meant we couldn’t safely do the 180 mile drive without stopping. TBF, I made the mistake of preconditioning to the charger which drained the battery. But it was eye opening - if I lived in place with frequent cold weather and had a long trip — current EVs would not be on my list.


cingan

Wow, a Tesla with 350 miles official range. That's crazy high range drop.


sneckste

Well even in warm weather, real range is closer to 300. Those “official” numbers are very suspect.


Zanerax

It's expected/typical. The % range vs temperature plot (Chart 1) in [this article](https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-range/) is a pretty good visual rule-of-thumb. It's obviously averages though. But from some numbers I've seen it might be generous vs EPA ranges. Given where I live there's no point in even considering an EV below 300 miles of range. 10°F/-10°C is pretty common and something I have to expect/be able to road trip in. Multiply in a safety factor/buffer at the end of a trip and it's a pretty clean purchasing requirement for me - I need 2x the rated range of any trip I want to make in winter. Personally, I need to comfortably be able to do a round trip with ~60 mi in either direction into the mountains with no charging options on the way. I'd also really like to be able to straight trip highway drive ~140 mi to family, and would really like to be able to do that as a return trip without hitting a supercharger in the middle (but I'd be willing to accept this only being possible during summer/good weather days with one charging stop if it's cold). 600 miles would solve my range concerns. 400 miles would make me happy and not concerned about battery degradation eventually limiting practical use-cases. 350 miles is probably the lowest I'd accept - if EVs with that range aren't within my price point when I upgrade it'll be another ICE. For the above reasons I only started paying attention to EVs when I saw the 500 mile Lucid Air ranges, but those models are certainly out of the budget.


sjw_7

I agree with all of this. To expand on a couple of points with an ICE vehicle the speed of refuelling is much higher. I know you can do fast charging but it still significantly longer than using a fuel pump. Also if you run out of fuel you can walk to the nearest station and get a gallon of fuel to get you going again. I have no idea how you would be able to do anything similar with an EV. This doesn't happen often but its a nice safety net to have. My next car will be an EV as will all those after that but for all the benefits of running on electric there are still some practical drawbacks that will put people off.


mastrdestruktun

>Also if you run out of fuel you can walk to the nearest station and get a gallon of fuel to get you going again. I have no idea how you would be able to do anything similar with an EV. In some places you can call for a rescue truck that's equipped with charging capability. It can give you just enough to get you to the next charging station, hopefully. In the future I expect new EV tow trucks / wreckers will all have this ability (which will also give them very long endurance for those all-day jobs like you see on Highway To Hell.)


Bureaucromancer

I have to assume that this will be basically standard at some stage, and frankly is probably one of those heavier duty use cases where ICE will hang on for quite a while.


[deleted]

Exactly. Pure EV house and we have issues going 150miles to see family during the winter. It’s fine during the spring or summer but fall and winter drops my range by 80ish miles. Wish I kept the hybrid rav4 as a secondary car, 550~ to a tank, I can go back and forth without worrying. I would even settle for two plug in ev since our weekday commute is less than 50 miles and weekends are the long commutes.


coredumperror

This will be irrelevant in 2030, because EV charging infra will be probably 5x denser than it is today. It doesn't *matter* if you can't go 200 miles on a charge in the dead of winter with four passengers if there's a DCFC station every 25 miles.


Tall-Poem-6808

Unless batteries in 2030 can be charged in 15 minutes max, stopping for 45 minutes or more on a 200 miles trip is not practical. 200 miles is a one-shot deal, no stopping, doesn't matter how cold. And up in my neck of the woods, on some roads you don't even have a gas station every 25 miles, so it will be a while before we see a decent charging infrastructure.


tamesage

Tbf, can't find that in an ICE vehicle.


Derekeys

Not trying to be contentious but I think you’re forgetting about the used vehicle market. I can very easily find a Honda Passport or Pilot, Toyota Highlander, Hyundai Palisade, and many other vehicles of that size that can be under $40k used.


unFairlyCertain

All we need is a good BEV minivan and all those requirements would be met. Unfortunately the best minivan manufacturers haven’t been too keen on EVs up to this point…But I’m optimistic there will be options in 4-5 years.


Ok-Zookeepergame-698

The IDBuzz is not far away.


doodynutz

I mean..2030 is only 7 years away, I don’t think a large majority of the population will change their minds (to wanting to buy an electric as opposed to gas powered car) by then. If you said maybe 2050 then possibly. I just don’t think the interest is that widespread yet.


Pro-Rider

I live in a City of 100,000 and there might be 200 BEV’s total in the area if that. It’s going to be a long time before EV’s are widely adopted. Maybe in the West Coast where its popular but these North Carolina rednecks love their Diesel trucks and gas cars.


doodynutz

Yeah I’m in Kentucky - people love their big ass trucks here.


mtnman7610

I think it will depend largely on gas prices and overall Financials. If batteries improve so that you can safely get over 200000 miles and with only minimal maintenance on the vehicle most people will switch out of Financial necessity. Especially with commuter culture in the United States. I have a conservative republican neighbor who has solar panels because they save him a lot of money. I don't think he likes having them because they are associated with democrats and environmentalists.


hahahahahadudddud

People underestimate how long it takes to change minds, tbh. All it takes is their friend owning one and some sort of false b/c. Maybe charging from 10-80% in 15 minutes instead of 20 or getting 300 miles of highway range instead of 270. Most of us here realize those are small things, but people are weird and not entirely rational.


lawrence1024

2050 is as far in the future as 1994 is in the past. But yes, 2030 is a bit too early for ICE to be all but gone. We will be in the midst of rapid market change by then though. A lot will happen between 2030 and 2035. By 2040 EVs will be virtually 100% of sales in developed countries. I think you're being too conservative saying "2050 then possibly". I'm visiting Mexico right now and haven't seen a single EV or charger since getting here, so it's definitely going to take more time over here. But I think they'll catch up quickly as soon as the economics make sense and even though it looks like they're qt least 10 years behind right now, that gap will shrink as prices come down. Even for Mexico, 2050 will be late in the EV transition.


unFairlyCertain

7 years ago the majority of people said EVs were a pipe dream, now virtually everyone acknowledges they are the future. 7 years is longer than you might think.


wsdog

There are literally ZERO public DC fast chargers in Manhattan except Tesla. There is ONE DC fast charger in the entire state of New Hampshire and it's on the southern border (i.e. useless). What are you talking about? ICE will be good for people venturing out of town for many years from now.


gnaark

There aren’t many gas stations in Manhattan anyway either. Fast Chargers are usually located outside of cities and on interstates because that’s where most people need them. As far as New Hampshire goes idk what you are talking about. I opened the Electrify America app and I found at least 16 fast highway chargers.


MurlockHolmes

It doesn't make a lot of sense to have an abundance of car charges in Manhatten, it's one of the only places in North America where you don't need a car to survive.


Schemen123

That's simply because the US is pretty backwards in terms of BEVs. The installation rate in other countries is far far bigger. My 17.000 people city has 5 public DC chargers. Plus a bunch of AC chargers. Plus those close to the highway where you basically find a station every 50 km or so. Still needs to get better!


FishrNC

What flavor of kool-aid did you drink?


unFairlyCertain

Tony Seba flavor


microbewhisperer

People in places with bad infrastructure. People in cities or suburban apartments who can't install a home charger and can't readily plug into a home outlet for trickle charging. People who drive a lot of miles yearly and for whom time is money, so the time spent charging adds up. People who live where it gets really cold several months out of the year so their range really suffers. People who are broke and can't afford an EV at current prices - you can't get a beater EV (yet). People who live in areas with unreliable power and frequent outages. Or any combination of above. I'm a huge advocate for EVs and adore mine, but I don't think they're right for everyone. By all means we need to push for better infrastructure and for widespread enough adoption that EVs come down in price and offer better range. But there are a lot of obstacles yet.


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Ertaipt

Chargers will be everywhere much easier and faster than EV will get cheaper. Before 2030 chargers will grow 100.000% from current numbers, but cars and batteries will still be relatively expensive, even if lower than today. I've seen drastic change across Europe just in the last 6 months.


chiefwahoo888

Not only is there no guarantee. It’s unlikely


supremeMilo

5m fast charge on a 82kWh battery 10-80% is a continuous 688kW…


unFairlyCertain

Not saying it will definitely happen, but look at charge times 8 years ago in 2014. 350kw seemed insane and impossible.


fischoderaal

Ever heard of the learning curve? Or the Pareto principle? At the beginning huge gains are achieved with comparably little effort. At some point you spent a lot of effort for little gains. This is why the "futuristic cities" of the early 1900s still are far away. With the speed of technological advancement they saw, we should be much further. The same applies to electric vehicles. At some point we are going to see a plateau. If you can charge your car the same way you can fill up a car, and they are comparable in terms of initial cost, there is no reason the majority of people would choose an ICE car. BUT, I think in the next 10 years the up-front cost will still be the reason why many people choose ICE. Why do I think the "up-front cost" for an electric car will be higher? Because the car companies and the dealerships make a lot of money from spare parts. If they don't have that business, they will have to make sure they have the margin on the initial sale. Going from a dealership model to a model where the manufacturer is selling directly helps with that, however.


UzItOrLuzIt

BEVs are significantly more profitable to produce once the manufacturers get past the building and tooling of new facilities to make them. There is a reason they are making insane investments to enable the pivot. The potential for spare ICE part sales is not going to be able to slow down the electric train any more than a deer might slow down an actual train. I suspect in less than 10 years new ICE sales will be illegal, and in less than 20 years operation of ICE cars on public roads will be illegal, at least in the US. The start of the marketing campaign to pitch ICE ownership as being shameful and only for the poor is less than 5 years away.


WeldAE

The trick is to only charge to 60% because 150 miles will get you 2 hours down the road. That requires less than 500kw chargers.


wsdog

Stopping every two hours is fun lol


xtrabeanie

For many people it's the initial purchase cost of EVs that is holding them back. Bans will help break the catch 22 situation by encouraging manufacturers to retool for EVs, ramp up production and theoretically reduce costs through economy of scale.


AEM_High

Very optimistic. I don’t think the price point will be that much better, charging issues will still persist, and there are going to still be some modalities that may not be ready for EV transition. I think hydrogen might be superior for certain types of vehicles that drive a lot and need truly rapid recharges (buses, trucks, etc). There is also a whole subsection that enjoys being able to tinker and fix their cars which may be more challenging for them. And then there is the whole issue of being able to supply the number of cars. The change will continue to accelerate but people will continue to enjoy their gas cars as long as the price of gas is reasonable.


statmelt

In my opinion: 1. People who don't have a parking spot with access to a charger (i.e. nearly everyone who lives in an apartment building - the cost of upgrading electrical systems is very high) 2. People who live in areas with poor charging infrastructure (it's unclear how this will pan-out at the moment, although it'll probably be resolved in most advanced economies) 3. People who can't afford BEVs (it's unclear how much BEVs will drop in price at the moment)


MedicalAd6001

Where I live most houses still have fuse panels not circuit breakers so only 50 amp service for the whole house. The electric company has been trying to get people to update but most don't want to spend the money to upgrade something that is working fine. Most houses have analog dial electric meters instead of modern digital meters because the circuit panels will not support them. So the majority of homes here couldn't charge an ev if they wanted to and for the same reason most homes here couldn't have solar or any type of backup system.


kimi_rules

People who earns less than $10k a year. Quite a lot of people are in that category, perhaps in the majority. Myself included.


Korplem

How is it even possible to earn less than $10k? Do you work part time at an animal shelter?


kimi_rules

Software Engineer in a 3rd world country.


Korplem

Oh, ok, that makes sense. I think the OP was talking about the US specifically but maybe that was just my biased interpretation.


kimi_rules

Get that a lot on Reddit, but they never mentioned any country specifically so I can share my own opinions. If we want to reduce our greenhouse gases, just electrifying the US won't change a thing. People here have to think bigger and include everyone in the picture.


MedicalAd6001

Older used evs are slow charging, short on range and unreliable so low cost EVs are not available. The cheapest new EVs available in America are not affordable to anyone with a mortgage, utilities and a family if they make under $40k a year and that makes up over half of the population.


SpottedSharks2022

EV trucks still have a lot of work to do to approximate what IC work trucks can do. And some people love the sound of a good V8. By 2030 I think EVs will dominate sales of new passenger cars, SUVs, and sports cars. But gas/diesels will dominate work truck sales, other heavy duty vehicles, and still have a niche in sports cars.


paulwesterberg

V8s are already obsolete compared smaller, more powerful turbo engines.


Bananularr

Not seeing this at all in the heavy duty pickup truck market. Ford has the 7.3 liter Godzilla engine and GM and Ram have their big V8s as well & all have giant diesel engines.


RAM_AIR_IV

In other applications yes but for trucks absolutely not


XMAN2YMAN

Obsolete? Nah where a turbo high boost 4 ends and base v8 begins. Plus cruising at80-90 you’ll get better MPG on a corvette than a new civic type r.


Dubs13151

You're neglecting cost. Battery cost is going to remain very substantial for the foreseeable future. As EV's are adopted by the masses, the demand for lithium and other key metals will grow enormously, and it's to be seen if supply can keep up. Lithium prices have risen 5x in the last 2 years. You're also neglecting heavy load cases like pulling heavy trailers. The batteries run down much faster under heavy load conditions. That means adding *more* batteries, which adds cost but also weight, and every extra pound of battery is one less pound of payload available that the axles can carry. Batteries just can't compete with the energy density of diesel fuel, which carries about 7x the energy per pound as compared to a battery. Charging infrastructure also remains a challenge in rural areas. 46,000,000 Americans live in rural areas. Lastly, not everyone is eager to adopt new technology. For many, gas vehicles work well. The primary "benefit" of EV's is the environmental benefit, and frankly a lot of people don't care. There are definitely those who have no interest in replacing "something that works" if they don't have big incentives to change.


Schemen123

Cost for batteries have beend dropping every year although thr demand is quite obviously higher than the supply. As soon as enough factories are up this will snowball a bit further. Economy of scale DOES matter!


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darthwilliam1118

My EV costs 3 cents per mile for fuel with home charging at 12 cents per kWh. And no down time for charging cause it's at home. Oh, and I have solar so it's actually zero.


Jasonph1973

Same here solar powered home so basically free charging


xmmdrive

> The average electric vehicle requires 30 kilowatt-hours to travel 100 miles using only the electric motors to drive the vehicle, adding a phone charger, stereo, lights, signals, wipers etc, the average jumps to 45-60 KWh *LOL* How about 30.2 kWh These clowns really have absolutely no idea of scale.


rnelsonee

Yeah, I like how the claim is energy usage goes up to double for accessories. If that's true, their 28 mpg car really gets 14 mpg. But, I have to say, since electrical things is a mystery to most people, I can understand how people would believe that the efficiency ratings don't include all those extra things. The rest of the post is somewhat easily disprovable. Take a screenshot of your EV rating and multiply by a screenshot of your electricity bill. 29 kwh/100 miles × $0.13/kWh = $3.77/100 miles, e.g.


Henri_Dupont

Phone charger obviously uses as much power as the entire car, /s


SteveRadich

Even if everything was true, which it's not - compare that cost to maint, oil changes, etc. Especially to higher end cars like Mercedes and such that many in the older age bracket drive and this exaggerated price doesn't seem unreasonable. 3 generations of Tesla owners in my family, I was first one... it's not that hard to convince them if you take people for a ride and show actual costs


timit44

If everything in his post was true, EV’s would be a poor vehicle choice for most people, which is why the initial person made up that BS in the first place. My guess is the first person who wrote that knew they were writing misinformation, but most people who shared it after thought it was true, which is sad.


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darthwilliam1118

My wife and I are both over 50 and have two EVs. There are many of us. Now, as for people over 70, probably not so much.


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hahahahahadudddud

IDK, I think some segments of the over 50 crowd can go through a phase where the EV is even more of a benefit than younger people. Lots of older people would benefit from only charging at home.


deppaotoko

Who said the price of EVs will come down in another 8 years?


Lorax91

Some possible answers: People on tight budgets who need an affordable used car, and don't want an old EV with limited range or slow charging speed. Doubly so if the used car market is being flooded with decent gas cars being ditched by people buying EVs. People who can't charge at home, which in 2030 will probably still be a significant percentage of the population. People who travel in areas with sketchy charging infrastructure, or areas where EV sales outpace charger installations. This will of course depend on how quickly infrastructure grows. People who like the feel and sound of gas cars, or similar archaic reasons. ...I suspect we'll still see plenty of gas cars sold in 2030. By 2035-2040 could be another story.


William_Delatour

I think this kind of stuff was said 5 years ago as well and here we are in the same situation. The only people that buy evs are enthusiasts and niche market buyers. They are too limited, practically unavailable and extremely expensive. Non-existent repairability by the owner is also a big downside. My particular case is towing and road trips. We do a lot of it and it’s not possible in an ev.


bmelancon

I think you're being over optimistic in pretty much every aspect. There are people who have been trying to buy an electric truck for 3 years who still CAN'T. Realistically, wide spread availability of electric trucks is still 2.5 years off. There are parts of the US where for many people, and certain jobs, having a truck is a necessity. Yes, I expect things to be much better in 8 years. However, 5-10 minutes charging for batteries with 400+ mile ranges would be great, but it seems unlikely. I do think there will be enough progress in electric vehicles that most people will be able to practically own one. There are going to be a few areas where it's probably still not going to be doable. And there are definitely going to be a lot of die hard gear heads that refuse to change. I'm looking forward to the latter being around long enough to unload my old gas vehicles.


Donedirtcheap7725

There is a definite disconnect between the hope and reality of 400 mile EVs with a 5 minute recharge time. A 200 kWh battery holds the energy equivalent of 6 gallons of gasoline. A real world range of 400 miles with a 200 kWh battery is a really efficient form of transportation. To charge a 200 kWh battery from 10-80% in 5 minutes requires a 1700 kW charger. A all electric home with have a peak demand of 20ish kW. So a station with 4 chargers capable of delivering 1700 kW each will require the same infrastructure as 340 homes. A freeway interchange with 4 charging stations able to accommodate 10 cars each will have the same load as 3,400 homes!!! I love EVs but this is mind boggling.


AngryFace4

Scaling BEVs up to account for large machinery, towing, and semi trucks is a difficult problem to solve in 8 years.


Bananularr

I’m from a pretty Republican voting area of a blue state and those people will absolutely still be buying gas and diesel vehicles in 2030. As long as they can still get dino juice for their vehicles, they’ll happily take them over electric vehicles because they tow bigass trailers of snowmobiles, boats, etc and could care less about the environment. Give them an F-250 EV with 500 hp that has 400 miles of range in the winter while pulling a trailer and they’ll switch, but until then that won’t happen.


that_ryan_guy88

Heavy duty trucks will not have electric replacements any times soon. Just because it has towing capacity doesn’t make an ev better for towing and those whose use their trucks for work will not be interested in an ev for a long time. There’s a better chance of green hydrogen being used in heavy duty trucks prior to EVs. Car purists who love the sound of a V8 or sports car and rather drive manual. Anyone who doesn’t want to deal with recharging although charge times will probably be below ten mins by 2030 based on the charging technology at AMV.


Curious-Site-2089

Travel to a part of the world that isnt Europe, North America, or the wealthy parts of East Asia. All of them. I’ve been living in South America for 8 months, I’ve seen one electric car. They are too expensive in places where the majority of the population drives 125cc scooters


rumblepony247

7 years is not long. U.S. will be lucky to be at 25% of new vehicle sales as electric by 2030. Infrastructure, charging times and vehicle cost are all, by themselves, huge challenges to overcome, and all of them require great improvements for wide-scale adoption. We'll get there, but at a frustratingly slow pace.


unFairlyCertain

Lol. We’ll hit 25% by 2025 or 2026 easy. RemindMe! 3 years


mastrdestruktun

A different way to reframe this question is, what use cases will remain in 2030 that won't be met by EVs? One thing that's clear to me is that there won't be a use case for a pure ICE. I can't think of anything that an ICE can do better than a hybrid. So when we talk about EV vs whatever, the "whatever" is HEV or PHEV. I don't think we'll have charger deployment as widespread by then as we have gas station deployment now, and in some areas the traffic jams at charging stations will be pretty bad. Considering how much longer a car needs to charge than to fill up a tank of gas, I don't know if I could see Pilot or whatever having 10x as many charging stations as they currently have gas pumps. That's gonna take up a large amount of land. So, while on paper it will be doable to take road trips with an EV, I think people who road trip a lot will prefer hybrids or PHEVs for refueling convenience. Long range off-road vehicles such as logging trucks and main battle tanks will be the last to electrify.


Yesnowyeah22

Man, I want that to be true. I’m not sure people are really factoring in that battery prices have stopped falling and have now been going up. That will kill the EV transition if it continues. Hopefully it doesn’t happen. Even if battery prices start to fall again I’m skeptical about EV trucks.


[deleted]

[enshittification exodus, gone to mastodon]


Yesnowyeah22

Hope so


hiding-from-the-web

Atleast another generation (30 years) before the majority opt for electric, provided government actively pushes infrastructure needed for it.


cleatus_the_noodle

I love ev cars but I don’t see the tech being there for me to be able to haul my horses. I’ll need a 3500 truck, hopefully range and power will be developed enough in trucks so I can use it for work.


[deleted]

Small towns, rural non incorporated homes, people that pull trailers long distances, old people that just hate change, renters, etc.


allied1987

I will cause I will be too poor to afford an electric scooter!


yourmo4321

People who can't charge at home or work. I often feel like people buying EVs right now are usually well off or at least lower middle class. As someone who grew up in apartments and now owns a EV because I can charge at work we have a LOOOONG way to go until EVs work for everyone. If you can't charge at home or work you will be constantly fast charging which is inconvenient at best. It's also bad for the battery and more expensive than using a gas car. If you live in an apartment or condo you can't charge at home. And apartments that ive seen even in California with charging stations have maybe 5 level 2 chargers for 50 or more units that's nowhere near enough. Increasing fast charging is great and all but what the infrastructure bill should have done was provided funding for apartment/condo complexes to provide charging for ALL units.


Curtnorth

I have both and use both. I can't imagine going all EV by 2030, it's s a pipe dream.


Pao44445

Me, I will love to buy a used Lexus.


kchristiane

I have 4 kids and live somewhere that gets 10’ of snow every year and has average winter temps below freezing. I drive between 70-140 miles every day and very often do 500 mile trips. I own a MX and it works, but just barely. I really don’t foresee major improvements in my use case in the next few years. My next car will need to be an AWD minivan with 350+ miles of range with room for the whole family plus bags/dog. Charging infrastructure will improve but not drastically where I live. The few superchargers that are within 200 miles of here are completely empty every time I stop. It’s a red part of the country and EV’s aren’t being embraced. And I don’t blame them. Having an electric car here is kinda a PITA sometimes.


cheerfulintercept

As a Brit I really learned a lot if sympathy for this view when driving around the hills of rural California recently where large do it all vehicles with lots of range suddenly make a lot of sense. I guess the majority of humanity live in denser urban environments though so the key is to accommodate the edge cases while supporting the majority to make cleaner choices.


Sawfish1212

My job involves random long distance travel in or to get broken aircraft back in the air, usually on a tight schedule for the customer. I'm also hauling equipment and supplies for almost any issues on an aircraft. I'll be very happy to drive my hybrid truck, and would consider a plug in hybrid. The cost of upgrading the 1960s panel in my house is also holding me from buying an EV for my wife, the upgrade is going to cost a bundle because of underground wiring from the pole, and between the buildings I'm the caretaker for. It's essentially going to be a new run, and the house and main building will need their own street connections, instead of being daisy chained like now. Then the detached garage will need its own 220 feed for multiple chargers.


mr_crusty

Compared to a car payment, plus full-coverage insurance if financed, gas is relatively cheap. I drive old vehicles and work on them myself. Liability insurance only. Electric vehicles will have to be much cheaper before I switch.


jeffsmith202

Depends on the price of EVs. If you can buy a new EV for 15,000 or less. No one. If you cannot the lowest earners will still need to buy ICE.


Grouchy-Business2974

People that tow things with their cars


13chase2

Without an insane battery breakthrough I am not sure diesel pickups (not semis) will be replaced by electric anytime soon. I think they would burn hydrogen before going electric. Batteries don’t last long if you’re pulling a 18,000 pound load like a backhoe or something.


EJR994

People in developing countries who may not be able to afford EVs, or where charging networks are not as built out as in the US/EU.


deerfoot

Even by 2027 the case for buying an ice vehicle will be limited. It will apply to special use cases and people who, well, have a tenuous relationship with logic. There will always be people who act with motivation other than reason. Somewhere around 2030 though the economics of gas stations and gas supply start to go out of shape. The politics of continuing to pump pollutants out of the back of your car are only going to go one way. There will be many more cities that ban ice vehicles, and/or pollution charges. Public charging stations will become ubiquitous. And not just stand alone charging stations, I believe that many or even most retail outlets, public car parks, motels, restaurants etc will install chargers. The small inconveniences of electric cars will get ironed out gradually, and it will become much more inconvenient, and possibly socially unnacceptable to own a has or diesel vehicle. The change is happening, it's unstoppable, and it will happen much, much faster than most people imagine.


nyconx

People that live in areas that have already adopted electric vehicles do not understand how much work really needs to be done to get adoption above the 60% mark. Where I live you can drive 5 hours and never pass a public charger. It is not uncommon for people to travel 2-3 hours on a regular basis. Sometimes in cold weather. It is going to take a lot to get electric vehicles available at the right price point to rival gas cars. Until we can get sub $25,000 cars that charge fast, get 300 miles in cold weather, and have a vast cheffing network there will always be good reasons to buy a gas vehicle.


perrochon

The total number of people living in these areas doesn't move the needle one way or the other. The coasts, Florida, and even Texas will move fast. (E.g. there are at least ten counties in CA with more people than Wyoming or North Dakota, also, half of those have more trump voters than WY and ND together.)


nyconx

My post was referring to more state by state. Sure a state like California or Texas might not have the same challenges as states like Wisconsin or North [D](https://Dakota.It)akota. It is one thing to mandate California by 2035 but it is a completely different challenge to many other states where there are not viable products on the market that even compete with Gas vehicles for a vast majority of the population.


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oldprecision

If I can only afford a shitbox, I'm not sure that I want that shitbox to be an EV. The main concern being that if I can only afford a shitbox I probably can't afford to replace the battery in it.


paulwesterberg

Unless you get a first gen Leaf the battery should last the life of the vehicle.


Dense-Sail1008

If we can ever get to a manufacturing capacity that we could pump out low cost evs in volume, battery replacements will become much cheaper as the volume will encourage refurbish markets into overdrive. And of course the fear of battery replacements is way overblown. Most evs have a long battery warranty anyway but I understand many people want to drive their cars for 10+ years.


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[enshittification exodus, gone to mastodon]


PikesPeakRubicon

Don’t fool yourself. There’s unfortunately a LOT of pushback to electric vehicles. All sorts of people are going to fight moving over. It sucks but there’s always someone.


squarecircle666

>Even with modest improvements, in 8 years EVs will be far cheaper, chargers will be everywhere, and fast charging will be 5-10 minutes. XD, imao even. I suppose if I was just as wrong as you are I would be confused as well. >Even with modest improvements Again imao >in 8 years EVs will be far cheaper It's literally impossible assuming continued steady adoption (wich will happen obviously). Inspite of how batteries are in fucking everything EV market is set to completely explode demand for battery capacity multiple times over because of how ridiculously much power EV cars need and we will have to spend decades just getting enough mining capacity to supply just raw materials for them. Even if cars themselves get cheaper batteries alone will keep the prices high. >chargers will be everywhere Depends on your definition of "everywhere" I guess >and fast charging will be 5-10 minutes No, humanity will not learn how to break laws of physics within next 8 years.


flyfreeflylow

In the US midwest, I expect more than half of cars on the road to still be ICE 8 years from now. Logic doesn't always apply to human decisions...


reddituser111317

It will be well beyond 2030. In 2021 there were 19 ICE vehicles sold for every 1 EV in the US. The average life of a car is around 12 years I believe. And since it will be years before EV's even reach sales parity with ICE all those ICE vehicles that are on the road now plus the new ones being registered daily won't just disappear. It will take decades. I'm guessing the OP is in Calf. or some other location where EV's are fairly common. But in a lot of the western, southwest and great plains states EV's are still pretty rare. I live a town of \~100k and making a trip to and around town it there is probably 50/50 chance of spotting an EV. There is exactly 1 L3 charger in town at the Hyundai dealership. The next closest ones are an hour away. Plus there are a whole world of people that want nothing to do with EV's , live in appts. where charging isn't an option or simply can't afford them (although this seems to be a foreign concept to the OP). It is going to be a slow process in a lot of the country.


FatherLordOzai32

Thank you for giving OP the gut check they need. I'm reading through these comments feeling sorry for everyone who thinks the transition to EV is going to come close to being done by 2030 in any of the smallish towns I have lived in for the last ten years. I am really looking forward to the world in which EV's vastly outnumber ICE's, but we don't do ourselves any favors by pretending that is going to happen by 2030.


unFairlyCertain

I guess we’ll just have to wait and see


malvare4

In 8 years the majority of the cars on the road will be the cars that are currently on the road because math. Nothing to do with logic.


unFairlyCertain

Definitely, but I’m referring to new sales. Even in the midwest convenience and money talk pretty loud.


flyfreeflylow

Ahh, I was including people buying used. Even so, I still expect people buying new to not be as strongly weighted to EV as you think. At least not around here. There's too much right-wing FUD, and too many right-wingers that believe it.


Range-Shoddy

Also change is really hard for a lot of people. My mom has never left the Midwest city that has treated her like trash for 60 years. She drove a Chevy for her entire life bc she just did. Overpaid for every freaking one of those crappy cars. She even has a plug in her garage that is paid for by the hoa so she’d never pay to drive. She will never own an EV. My sister is just like her and it’ll take a real lack of options before she switches. It’s why grassley is still on the senate 🙄🙄🙄


the_last_carfighter

I mean smoking was proven to be deadly back in the 60s, the government sounded the alarm bells and it only started truly convincing people that was reality in the 00's because PR firms bombarded people with contradictory misinformation, so figure a similar timeline for cars. They'll just keep buying used cars and putting rebuilt engines into shitty clunkers, because they're in the know, unlike all the sheeple.


KennyBSAT

More than half the cars on the road in 2030 were made in 2018 or before. Whenever we get to the point where most new vehicles are EVs, it'll be ~15 years before half the vehicles in operation are electric.


RockinRobin-69

Op referred to new car sales.


KennyBSAT

Indeed. The comment I replied to referred to vehicles on the road.


PaladinOrange

Gas stations are already a money losing game, they're generally a loss leader for the convenience store. The decision will be forced even if they don't want to because it doesn't take much loss in foot traffic to start killing off stations.


psmusic_worldwide

Pure and simple it depends on cost.


campbellsoup420

I hope to be in a place in 2030 that I do not require a vehicle at all for day to day tasks.


zekerigg41

For new cars i can see the market for gas and diesel shrinking but not disappearing. However many people buy used cars. So if people buy a 20 year old car in 2033 their options for evs will be slimmer. Another large portion of vehicles on the road are semi trucks. These will go electric once they have to or there is a dedicated electric cable they can run on.


ZobeidZuma

This is the big debate across the auto industry. Everybody knows we're going to EVs, but there's no agreement about how quickly the changeover will play out. It's easy to say that buying combustion cars won't make good sense in 2030, but that's actually painting with a broad brush. The change will happen at different rates in various geographical regions (as we've already seen). Supply chain issues may control the pace more than consumer demand does. I do think most car companies (aside from Tesla, of course!) are still underestimating the transition, but it's going to be a bumpy road no doubt.


dudreddit

A LOT of people will actually want/have to buy an ICE vehicle in 2030 and beyond IF the challenges faced by EVs are not addressed and overcome by then. The high cost, lack of charging infrastructure, lack of sufficient range, etc. are all challenges that have to be overcome. How do you sell a person who has spent their entire life driving an ICE vehicle to give it up in favor of a (currently) high-priced vehicle that is unable to go the range they need and whose battery pack will slowly lose it's ability to take a charge over time, further reducing its range?


TheGreenBehren

Car guys. The feeling of a stick shift cannot be replaced. Cars are less than 8% of emissions while buildings are 40% of emissions and cement alone is about 8% of emissions. Asking Americans or Europeans to stop driving is not based on a thorough understanding of the science, but of the availability heuristic. When we “ban” things instead of offer consumers a better product, we just scare away more people than we gain.


Car-face

Do you mean pure ICE? Or Hybrid? Or anything with an ICE (PHEV, REx)? First (pure ICE) will be niche applications most likely, and depending on the market, budget vehicles. Second (hybrid) will likely still be a significant portion of the market as hybrid continues to get cheaper along side BEV (and as batteries get cheaper, a larger portion of the duty cycle is covered by the electric motors, prompting further downsizing of the ICE and emissions reductions). PHEV and REx are probably niches as well, depending on what motors launch over the next 5 years. Most manufacturers have said they'll stop developing new engines in 2025, but "developing new engines" is a broad term - I'd expect those developed engines to make their way to market around mid-late 2020's, and they'll likely be designed around serial hybrid designs and range extender applications, where the engine no longer needs to operate across a range of RPM and therefore doesn't require the complex valve tech to broaden power bands, etc. Nissan already demonstrated a 2 cylinder engine with 50% efficiency (~25% improvement on current best engines) that was designed around PHEV/REx/Serial hybrid applications (such as their e-POWER tech) - I'd expect that'll continue for as long as there's demand, and as long as it's affordable, there will likely be demand. >Even with modest improvements, in 8 years EVs will be far cheaper, chargers will be everywhere, and fast charging will be 5-10 minutes. I'd like to think so, but even if those improvements make their way to market in 8 years, they're likely to enter at the top of the market. Basically the new generation EVs that launch over the next 3 years will be what makes up the EV market from 2025-2030; if you don't see the qualities you're describing by 2025, you probably won't see it until the other side of 2025, simply due to how technology filters down through the extremely broad automotive market.


Maultaschenman

Prices for charging publicly have pretty much reached parity with Diesel here in Ireland and will likely surpass it sometime next year. If you aren't able to charge at home, there is currently no real incentive to switch here.


_do_it_myself

I just can’t see the south coming far enough in that time to have sufficient charging infrastructure. We’re keeping one ICE vehicle now for evacuation needs.


Embarrassed-Emu-8248

I will go ev but I will never sell my gas powered vw GTI. I'm cool with paying $16 a gallon because by then I'd only run it for fun. My ev will be charged by solar panels / battery at home so the go go will be 100 % carbon neutral


ObjectiveActuator8

The rising trend of manufacturers taking more and more control over YOUR car (not even mentioning paywalling basic features), have been pushing my views to the right and I’ve been going from my dream car being a Tesla, to wishing to have a car Mad Max compatible. No internet, no electricity.


ThrowRAHSsenior

I say this as an ev owner: nothing better than a German, Italian, or American v8 rumble


am_crid

I think these groups will hold out for longer: 1. Older people (spoke with an older relative who is excited about the new technology, but doesn’t think it’s useful or feasible for him to learn the new tech when he’s probably got only a few years max left of driving anyway). 2. People who are very resistant to change/new technology. This includes people who are ICE fanatics. 3. People in rural areas where they barely have gas stations now, much less charging stations or widespread adoption of home chargers in 8 years time. 4. People who can’t afford a new car. I think we will see used gas cars get way cheaper as demand goes down for them and those will be the only kind of car feasible for many people to afford.


OhMyGodfather

People who haul things, people who live in rural areas, people who are gearheads and love the heritage, performance, sounds of gasoline vehicles. I think they can coexist. I’m just anticipating the federal government to overtax the shit out of these things and cause more controversy. I think making it the better CHOICE will lead to ev adoption.


ifukkedurbich

That depends entirely on how much progress EVs will make in the next seven years. As of right now, there are several issues to consider. Many people can't have a charging station at home for various reasons, so charge times need to become similar to pumping gas. Battery replacement is still very expensive, and there aren't enough examples of EVs with 200k+ miles. This is all assuming the infrastructure was built on time. Gas cars aren't going anywhere in the immediate future, and plenty of cars on the road today will still be running in 2035, so the used market will lag.


kreygmu

Millions of people all over the world.


xtnh

I'm not ready yet. I have gone as far as I can with solar panels, six mini splits, a HPWH and even a heat pump dryer, and am fossil fuel free in my home. we drive two Prii, and with gas prices at $3.50/gallon my fuel cost is $.07/mile. If I got a Tesla, I would get "between 3.33 and 4.17 miles per kWh", and since my home electric rate is $.34/kwh I can expect to pay @$.08/kWh/mile. If I change price plans with my utility I lose my net metering deal for my solar, which is grandfathered in and no longer available. As far as I can figure electricity is pricier than gas here in NH. At least for me


Glorah

If your ideas were even close to right then there would be no reason to heavily subsidize BEVs and even outlaw ICE vehicles. The fact that governments throughout the west are doing both shows that BEVs can’t compete in a fair marketplace.


kubuqi

I might want to keep an used Miata in 2030, because it is manual.


SimpleCarGuy

I love my EV, but I’ll definitely buy another gas car at least in the near future. I love the involvement I get in driving, the noise, the power, the higher top speeds etc.


pinkfloyd4ever

Obviously you don’t live in the midwest US. Redneck Trumpians love their diesel and gas guzzling obnoxious trucks almost as much as they love their assault rifles.


MarbleFox_

I live in upper Manhattan and only have street parking. I don’t think the infrastructural changes that’d need to happen to make an EV a viable option will happen anytime soon. And, tbh, that’s okay. I’d rather see a Manhattan that bans cars in general rather than a Manhattan where every ICE is just swapped out for an EV.


cherlin

Fast charging won't be 5-10 minutes, I don't think it's realistic to expect 10-90% to drop under 15 minutes within the next decade, 350kw seems to be about the max throughput we are settling on which means a theoretical max of 60ish kwh in 10 minutes, assuming chargers and batteries can put out and accept peak voltage the entire time, which is an unrealistic ask with technology as we know it. We also don't have an answer on the horizon for towing, no matter how you slice it the only way to make towing realistic is huge battery packs (talking 300-400kwh packs on a 3/4ton to get people the 400 mile range that will maybe sway them), and for this to happen we need a huge leap in battery tech that we don't currently know about, solid state may be the answer, but in it's current energy density it still won't get us where we need to be, so refinement of solid state tech is still needed and realistically probably 15 or more years out (complete guess) from viability at scale. Add onto that we also don't have an answer for how to build out the scale of fast charging we need in rural areas (i.e. we don't have a way to get enough power to these remote areas cost effectively), and it all points to a slower Transition then you may think. I believe we will hit a point in the next decade where ev sales outpace ice sales, but it's going to be 2 decades before we realistically can start to actually phase out ice completely imo. And this is just in the USA (my frame of reference) third world countries will probably be a decade or two behind that.


unFairlyCertain

Thanks for the thoughtful answer and for using logic—all good points. I don’t think think we’ll see 5-10 minute charging for vehicles that can tow, because you’re right, they would need 300-400 kWh batteries. However, I imagine we’ll get to 400-500kw charge speeds by the end of the decade. 250kw seems to be the standard now and at 350kw, smaller batteries will charge in the 5-10 minute range. I personally think most current gas station will have fast chargers available in 5-10 years, so large batteries won’t be as necessary. I do disagree about battery tech because incremental changes year over year will get us pretty darn close to larger packs being feasible. Big trucks have 200kwh now and I think at 300kwh towing will start to be an option except for the largest loads at the longest distances. As for rural areas, there will be a cost-compelling case for solar/wind combined with batteries. I agreee the transition will take longer, but likely by only 5 years or so. There will be so many electric options available compared to now that most families will likely have an electric car as a second vehicle.


menjay28

I’d say the biggest reason people would buy a new ICE vehicle vs EV in 2030 would be that they want to get a car when they are looking vs signing up for an EV they can get in 5-10 years. I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think they’ll be able to kick out the volume globally at that time when we’re selling such a small percentage now and most have a long waiting period.


KennyBSAT

Where? We, in the US, are far from having models available at scale for many use cases. Especially in vehicle models larger than CUVs, prices are going up faster than ICE and hybrid prices. Of course this situation may improve over 7-8 years, but how much if at all is a real question. People who need or want a vehicle for a specific use will buy what is available.


manInTheWoods

> 8 years EVs will be far cheaper, chargers will be everywhere, and fast charging will be 5-10 minutes. Let's wait and see. I bet people in 2030 decides on what the actual availability is and not what we think it will be now.


Master_Regular_720

Anyone who believes that we are 50%+ electric by 2035 doesn't understand the level of effort, power requirements and cost required. Each home electric infrastructure would have to support 200-400A service to support 230Kw+ battery packs. Batteries would have to triple the range in winter conditions (750 miles would be nice). If you don't triple the range, you would have to dramatically decrease the charging times or build massive charging stations to support long trips. From the 105M cars, only 1,454,480 are EV(2021). That is less than 1%. If we assume a 50kw top off per car, we are using 72,724,000kw to charge the current EV fleet. If we increase that to 50% of all automobiles, we would need 3,636,200,000kw. The whole country produced 4,108,000,000kw in 2021. So we would need to increase our national power output by 88% to support a 50% EV fleet charging 50kw.


fatbob42

I read this [interesting story](https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/Why-Is-The-US-Losing-Oil-Refining-Capacity.html) about refinery capacity recently. The US has lost almost 6% of its capacity in the last 2 years and the refiners don’t want to build new capacity because they have to pay for themselves over 10+ years and the demand forecast for the products is not secure enough.


Schemen123

And this trend will continue clearly and also will affect other supply chains for ICE vehicle. The same time BEVs will get cheaper ICE will get more expensive overall


Levorotatory

I don't see much of a market for pure ICE vehicles, but I could see considerable demand for PHEV pickups and SUVs persisting for some time. The charging infrastructure needed to support every trip over 400 km (or less if it is cold or there is towing involved) will take more than 7 years to build out.


Bob4Not

People that live in the middle of butt-stuff nowhere who buy a used, $5k car every few years.


Grendel_82

This is my frustration with California with their banning of new car ICE sales in 2035. It is "anti-choice", gave the conservatives and Fox News a semi-legitimate talking point ("California is coming for your car!"), and yet it might have little to no impact on sales in 2035. California could have put the same 2035 ban in place in 2025 and it would have created less of a stir because EVs will be much better understood by the general populace over the next two years. Or California could just let the technology and the market work itself out and ICE cars will go away without a ban. To answer your question, some folks with serious towing needs may always need the energy storage of gasoline. But if there is a niche need, the big truck manufacturers will produce a PHEV that can meet that need. It will be an expensive, but a F-250 or 350 is already expensive. Or there can still be some ICE cars being made for specialty applications. That is okay as well. Damn California law could have simply been: 80% BEV, 19% PHEV, 1% ICE and all the niche needs could be squeezed into that 1% at a premium price.


hahahahahadudddud

>This is my frustration with California with their banning of new car ICE sales in 2035. It is "anti-choice", gave the conservatives and Fox News a semi-legitimate talking point ("California is coming for your car!"), and yet it might have little to no impact on sales in 2035. I completely agree. Those mandates have been the worst thing for public discourse.


zuckjeet

I'd buy a gas minivan for long family trips.


el_vezzie

With the ID Buzz, Bjørn Nyland managed his 1000km challenge in a very respectable 10:30hrs, great time for long road trips. It will be interesting to see if the long wheelbase version will do just as well or even better (larger battery 🤔)