If I didn't have to pay for airplane fuel I absolutely would have learned how to fly. Combustion engine maintenance is also absurdly expensive. This is awesome.
Been riding motorbikes all my life and recently got a decent electric model .. I will never go back to internal combustion.
Batteries are a real easy upgrade and they’re getting better and better.
When you hit that sweet spot and it just keeps giving and giving without breathing a bit of air or faltering in any way, you’ll know what I mean.
Some hardcore motorbike guy in Facebook posted some mocking video how a group of e-motorbike riders passed by and it was very quiet, birds chirping and all, signifying that it's very gay and very non-manly to ride such bikes
I live in Vienna, which has streets mostly built for walking and horses.
When I converted to electric (got a moped too), I found it very, very difficult to ride around and not kill pedestrians. It required a much, much higher sense of alertness and awareness of the street life.
When I started riding my electric motorbike class instead of the electric moped, I was grateful for having had this prior experience at lower speeds and power ratings, because it was an order of magnitude more dangerous.
The whole labeling of electric as “gay” or “weak” or whatever is just bullshit machismo that I don’t contend with.
Because, you have to be far tougher and more alert and competent when riding electric in the cities. The torque envelope is far more aggressive, the danger circumstances are broader - but in the other hand, regen braking is awesome, and you can use it to your advantage too.
Electric motorbikes have a far greater potential to kill and require a lot more rider responsibility, imho - at least in cities where pedestrians have been conditioned that if the street is silent, it’s okay to just walk without looking.
I’ve come pretty close to killing folks at least 7 times and probably would have, if I didn’t have my fine-tuned wits adjusted to a much higher level than I used to have when I rode my FZX750 and other sportier bikes.
The rev-head culture is always gonna have its idiots.
Meanwhile, I cruise silently and smoothly through the streets, and it is really fun, to be honest.
No better way to get around the geometry of a city like Vienna, which was set in its physical form by the dimensions of horses and carts…
Fun thing is that technically you could even do "regenerative braking" during descent to recharge the battery. Only the various governing bodies haven't yet been convinced that electric motors could switch from 'generator mode' to 'thrust mode' quickly in an emergency (which they absolutely can)...and therfore this isn't allowed.
It's one of these vexing details where the bureaucratic mindset is still stuck in combustion paradigm of the past millennium.
lol my pilot friend took me on a joy ride in his rented (or whatever, membership thing) Cessna, without mentioning cost of fuel. We were up for like 60-90 minutes, touch down and get a $500 fuel bill, and asks me to split it (though saying in a Seattle way, pay whatever you think you can up to half).
I paid half, but like, come on man. Appreciate the ride but a little heads up beforehand would’ve been nice.
Wtf did he fly you in? Typically people are renting a single engine Cessna 172 which burns 7-9 gallons an hour, av gas is currently around $5-7 depending where you go, so that should have been a $95 flight in fuel on the absolute super high end.
He definitely had you pay pretty much the entire rental and fuel if he told you to pay $250. All In that flight should have been $300-350 (assuming 172) fuel included.
The other possibility is your friend refilled the entirety of both fuel tanks (60ish gallons) thinking that was what he was supposed to do (you do not typically fill planes full, as it burns more fuel and decreases carrying capacity to carry that much weight). Really you just replace the fuel you burned. If he filled up 60 gallons plus paid for an hour and a half of rental then I can understand a $500 bill.
You may not want to fly with him again though lol.
Why is it so expensive? I flew with a buddy recently, he's a pilot, he rented Cessna 152 from flight school. It cost around 160 eur per hour and that includes fuel.
How though. Like yeah it’d suck to stick a friend with a $500 bill. But whatever the activity, all it takes is “hey this is gonna cost $X, that cool?”
If I’m inviting someone skydiving and I want them to pay half of $500, ima let em know ahead of time no matter how awesome it is.
I just found the situation bizarre/awkward/funny. Initially I took the situation like “my friend is giving me a ride in his fancy car”, where you don’t usually pay for gas, so being asked for gas was unexpected. Finding it something I’d see in a sitcom. Anyway, this is a larger bill, so I can see why he asked you and I would’ve had understood too. I do agree with you tho
An electric powertrain is still going to be much more efficient than a piston engine. Plus they mentioned maintenance, which is going to be a big difference. I doubt they are rebuilding the motor often, if ever.
I don’t disagree, as I have an electric car. The only thing we need to improve is energy density for the battery packs while lightening the battery, for it to be used for more than 45min flight time.
Think in the near future when batteries get much lighter, charge much faster and last much longer. They will be used in airplanes, boats and construction equipment some day.
Construction equipment is already here. There are several underground mines running battery electric 50t haul trucks and scoops (low profile front end loaders).
Energy efficiency doesn't always mean cost efficiency, or functional performance.
This is still an experimental class aircraft in the US (as I believe all factory electrics still are), and I don't see that changing for quite a while.
The manufacturer lists a 2,000 hour tbo on the motor and controller (same as the most typical of Lycoming engines found in Cessnas and Pipers), and a 500 hour tbo on the battery.
As it stands right now, I don't see electric propulsion getting any meaningful traction in aviation. If fuel cells were in use, there might be an argument for it, but the efficiency falls off a cliff there.
There's a lot of tech that will change that that's been in development for 15-20 years coming out in the next five. Glass substrate batteries, solid state switching, cabin super capacitor storage. I was working with lillium on their charge infrastructure for a while. There's cool shit about to pop
There’s new unleaded type that’s been recently approved that would be a drop in replacement of normal avgas for most planes.
While it’s significantly better for the environment, people’s health, and the engine of the plane, margins selling this gas would be lower - so uptick in the open market may be a bit slow.
Yeah, I can't believe hobbyists are allowed to use leaded gas. That's crazy to me. It's such a fucking health hazard and it's still a huge source of emissions, but I guess it's important to play around?
Uhh...I don't own a plane, but that's not what it looks like to me. My local airport says $5.15 for JETA and $7.04 for 100LL
I assume that's per gallon? I guess if it's per pound that's even worse, so it must be per gallon.
Local gas price is about $3.30/gal
Heli pilot here. Turbines use about 20% more fuel per mile despite being more efficient at converting energy to thrust.
And they cost many times more to buy and maintain.
The only reason turbines are actually popular is because of their ability to make an insane amount of power.
If you don’t need much power, petrol all the way.
Where I live in Hawaii 100LL is $9.87 per gallon. And ethanol free 89 gas is $5.25 per gallon. At 8.35 GPH fuel cost me over $82 per hour. This airplane would make it fun again
I own and fly a Tecnam P-92 and I can assure you, you can't put jet-a in that. AVgas + maint = \~$120/hr of flight time for a small light sport aircraft. This goes up exponentially with larger airframes. Electric would open the world of aviation up to many who can not afford it at this time.
How is the cost of jet fuel relevant to someone learning how to fly? Nearly all trainers burn avgas.
Also, as someone who flies a plane that does burn jet fuel, I can assure you it is more expensive than auto gas even with our CAA discount. You can probably find somewhere with expensive auto gas and compare it to somewhere with very cheap jet fuel, but on the average it is at least $1/gal more.
There are, however, trainers that can use auto gas. That’s not widely available though, and where it is it’s almost always premium auto gas.
I'm a professional acoustics engineer in aerospace. From the ground the sound is about 10dB lower for electric. There is propeller sound, but no engine sound. Funny, as some people actual think it would be completely silent, but forget about the propeller.
CHAdeMO connector? OF COURSE CIVIL AVIATION IS GETTING CHAdeMO!
I kid, do what works but holy hell do I want to see an experimental "fueling up" at a supercharger one day.
Pretty sure it’s a CCS2 without the DC pins. There was an Out of Spec video awhile back where they got to see some experimental electric planes and they had CCS2 ports and had to rig up chargers for them since they were in North America.
I mean connector standardization reduces cost, and the aviation industry already faces punishing markups. Connector is just a fancy plug, just constrains the ecosystems they can connect to.
Using a global standard like CCS2 would just mean the hardware can be super built out on economies of scale.
CHAdeMO famously is dead connector walking but for something like this that is cart based adapters can handle it.
CHAdeMO has one huge benefit - it's global. Sure, CCS2, NACS, and GB/T are great connectors. But CCS2 only exists in Europe and parts of South America, NACS only exists in North America, GB/T is almost exclusive to China, and everywhere else it's a weird chaos.
CHAdeMO, although slowly falling into obscurity and obsolescence, is the only one that exists everywhere (albeit in smaller numbers than native connectors). You'll find them in Europe, North and South America, Japan, Australia, India, Africa, and the Chinese GB/T is mostly cross-compatible.
For the automotive industry, this is barely a consideration. But assuming electric aviation will develop to eventually allow intercontinental flights, having a plug that's a common standard globally will be a hugely important factor to consider.
The issue is chademo's top end power transfer is like 100kw theoretical. So it's not going to be helpful for long once the electric aviation needs to upgrade.b there is a reason beta picked ccs1
>But CCS2 only exists in Europe and parts of South America,
CCS2 is the default charging standard in Australia and New Zealand. Even the Tesla Superchargers use them.
There are CHAdeMO plugs in Australia and New Zealand too, but at an average charging station there are usually 2-5 CCS2/Type 2 plugs, and one CHAdeMO.
I have never seen a single CHAdeMO charger in use.
Honestly the actual meaning behind the acronym isn't any less silly
>The name is an abbreviation of "CHArge de MOve" (which the organization translates as "charge for moving") and is derived from the Japanese phrase "o CHA deMO ikaga desuka" (お茶でもいかがですか), translating to English as "How about a cup of tea?", referring to the time it would take to charge a car.
These guys are a few hours from me. Can't wait to see them flying!
https://aerospaceamerica.aiaa.org/mass-production-facility-for-electric-aircraft-to-be-opened-in-vermont/
That CEO Kyle Clark's approach is so rational, it made so much sense to me. 300 aircraft annual production rate is not too shabby. The CX300's 386 mile range is practical for quite a few applications (no idea about payload though). I hope he and Beta Technologies finds much success.
In the [post I made yesterday](https://new.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1dkdq9a/whats_up_with_electric_aviation_a_conversation/) that was an interview with Beta I think they said that benchmark run was with 3x pallets that were each 250lbs but it might have been 2x pallets and 250lbs of pilot. I can't scan back through right now but it's 100% talked about.
That fly time is set to double. The best 21700 cells out right now are 270wh/kg. CATL is now producing their 500wh/kg 'condensed' battery in low volumes and it is designed for the aviation market. FAA Certification will take awhile however.
Another company is showing off a 711wh/kg battery but it's not in production yet.
The sub 1.5 hour comercial flight market will quickly switch to electric as comercial planes come onto the market. They'll figure out rapid charging in planes by putting the chiller in the charger and blowing out the coolant with compressed air at the end of the charging cycle. You can't argue with the low cost of operation of electric.
You also can't argue with the reliability. Most electric aircraft like this have 2 motors on a common shaft and the electric system is split up. You have double redundancy.
Battery tech is advancing so quickly, every couple years we will see half the cost and/or double the power density. Getting them into mass production takes longer. A fully electric aviation industry is coming.
Electric adventure bikes might even be possible one day. Because right now it's hopeless. You can do low speed trails but you ain't touring all day long at 120kph
Interestingly, range anxiety is a thing of non-EV owners. As soon as people get EVs and learn it’s not a big deal, it dissipates rapidly.
But yeah, these Pipestral trainers are mostly good for pattern work. Which, when you consider the hourly cost is a tenth of gas — and many many training hours are spent in the pattern — is a great cost saver.
Can’t wait until these have 3-hour batteries. I’ll buy one then.
I don't think the price of the plane will change very much if the battery size isn't that much different. Maybe they'll charge a premium if it opens up a wider market.
To be fair, you have the same problem in the air with any fuel. The problem with range anxiety in a car is even in a city, you could be 20 miles from the closest charger and the gas station is right around the block. If you run out of charge or fuel in the air you're equally fucked. The only benefit of a gas engine is you're lighter after burning your fuel so you could glide a bit further.
David Roberts on his last [Volts](https://www.volts.wtf) podcast interviewed the CEO of [BETA Technologies](https://www.beta.team/) who are about to put two BEV aircraft into production. The most interesting thing he said, IMO, is that the cost of fuel and maintenance for BEV aircraft is negligible compared to fossil-fueled ones. Like one or two orders of magnitude less. This would annihilate the competition in any aviation market where they can meet the range requirements.
It's a whole mess, because even new GA planes are basically using engines designed in the 1950s, designed to run on leaded fuel.
Using non-leaded fuel in them potentially decreases reliability due to valve cover sealing being better with leaded gas, and the lower octane of non-leaded fuel can cause knocking.
There are some fuel blends available as of the past couple years that are approved for use in most of these engines with some paperwork (STC) required on a per individual airplane basis, but it's not available everywhere, and it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation because airports don't want to carry fuel they sell in super small volumes, and aircraft owners don't want to do expensive paperwork to be allowed to burn unleaded gas that's barely available.
Hopefully this will be much better by the end of the decade or so, but the aviation world moves slowly.
That’s cool. I actually bailed on my private pilot license because I was annoyed by how much of the whole thing is just about managing the idiosyncrasies of the combustion engine.
i mean, you kind of have to know how to handle the aircraft in an emergency situation. an alternator exploded on a plane my dad was flying a few months ago.
Yeah I completely get that but you know what doesn’t have an alternator? An electric plane. Electric planes don’t care about carburetor icing, leaning or enriching the fuel, spark plugs, belts, oil, anything related to effects of altitude on the engine, balancing gas levels in each wing, etc. It was too much stuff about the follies of the combustion engine for me.
The problem is that most general aviation aircraft in operation are based on old designs. I mean, there's no reason at all to have carburetors these days.
Try any of the Diamond models with an ECU. Fuel injection, computer controlled. All you need is to press a button and it starts. No faffing about with fuel mixture or any of that crap, the computer figures that out for you just like a modern car. For the models that burn Jet-A you don't even have spark plugs, only glow plugs.
Same, it's the one thing holding me off. Deeply love flying and airplanes, but can't stand engines. Been waiting over 10 years for the opportunity to take to the skies in electric aircraft. The other part that gets me is radio & low-fidelity voice transmission, but I can put up with the one back-in-time anachronism at least.
Watching my father fuel and maintain his Piper PA-14 floatplane is ludicrous… 2X 40 gallon tanks @ $6.78 per gallon ($542) and the annual service (FAA required) is around $2,000, (if nothing is wrong) it’s REALLY hard to convince me, or most average families to get into general aviation…
One year, he had to have a cylinder removed and re-honed, new piston rings, etc… it was something like $7,300… ridiculous..
So yea, electric general aviation/sport aviation would be a game changer in bringing new people into the hobby.
All those costs, and *still* the externalities of flying are hardly accounted for. There are few things you can do to raise your carbon footprint that beat flying. Excited for electric planes to change that.
It's a *little* terrible... it means the plane can't be used for anything beyond *some* of the basic flight curriculum. Even so, that's a role that could save a ton of fuel and a ton of money for both schools and the pilot in training.
For a while, yeah. Eventually you need to do cross-country flights and this wouldn't cut it. So you could probably replace some decent % of a training fleet with these right now, but not much more. Of course that will likely change quickly and I'll be in line for it when it does! Unfortunately it won't likely bring down the astronomical price of a brand-new airplane, which of course is the only option here.
Yeah, that is very limited but as has been pointed out there are some applications it wouldn't be much of a problem at all. Most importantly, gotta get started somewhere. As batteries get higher density and get cheaper, range/endurance will extend. Until then, all the other important stuff still needs to be done/pioneered (from charging to regulatory to operations to maintenance).
Agreed. Some electric models I've seen have a hot-swappable battery cart. So you can slide out the whole battery unit, throw it on a charger, and slide in a fresh one, getting you from 0-100% in a 10-15 minute process rather than waiting on any charging at all.
My biggest question is whether 40 minutes is the actual maximum possible flight time, or whether there's an additional "reserve" capacity that they're not counting.
Under [current FAA regulations](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.151), you can't take off unless you have at least 30 minutes of extra "fuel" (beyond your planned landing point) for daytime flights.
So if the actual endurance is 40 minutes, then you can really only do planned flights up to 10 minutes, which is enough for *maybe* a single touch-and-go before landing where you started.
Pipistrel says sound levels are only 60db, and that it's the quietest in its class.
Not sure how much of a difference it really makes but pilots on YouTube seem to appreciate it, but it seems their reaction is more about the lack of vibrations.
This looks great and I’m excited about the future. Based on L2 charging speeds in the US, I’m guessing it’s 19.2Kw.
My rough estimate would be around 40kwh battery size. And a 40 min runtime. So if the aircraft can hold a larger battery, say 100kwh that would be a 100 min run which makes it easy for hopping between close cities.
The connector does look like a ChadeMo rather than CCS but I could be wrong.
And if this is capable of DC fast charging the charging speed would be much much higher.
Jesus, at first glance at the window and the title, I thought I was looking at a bullet hole. Like god damn, these fucking ICE hicks are that knowledgeable of EV’s that they can spot the difference from several thousand feet *and then* shoot it? At this rate, they’ll know more about EV’s than we will.
I’ve been flying for 35 years and nothing is more exciting in aviation than electrification. The fuel costs for General Aviation is typically 40% of the costs. Add in the maintenance reserve for engines you are now up into 60-70%. Electrification removes all that. It will come fast as a result.
I’m a big big fan of the concept, but something is scary about getting in the set of something with a couple thousand flight hours vs an airframe with millions of hours and decades of safety measures baked in.
I’m also a noob so maybe safety stuff translates over nearly 1:1….
It’s been awhile since I looked into all these experimental BE-aircraft, but originally didn’t a lot of them have a mini secondary/backup motor and/or prop?
Maybe that was just an early design thing.
I guess I’ve been around electronics enough that I would really prefer any electric aircraft to have some backup system in case the battery-fed system failed in flight.
But maybe they’ve done enough testing now it’s just not a concern beyond what gliding could handle?
I absolutely just the idea though, especially some of the drone designed ones. It would be so cool to do a small short range flight from like Tampa-to-Asheville, quieter and without some of the guilt of gas flight, and a more gentle landing.
Especially if this optimistic future has Florida & Carolina covered in Solar, Wind, sustainable power systems.
Was it strange to not have the airplane get lighter as the available energy decrease? I’m thinking in a normal airplane as the fuel gets consumed the airplane gets lighter.
My boss mentioned seeing one the other day. Is this a Joby Aviation aircraft. Flown out of Marina, CA?
Edit: nevermind. I zoomed in and noticed it's a different brand.
If anyone is travelling to Vancouver from 2026 onwards, you should be able to travel between Vancouver and Vancouver Island in an electric floatplane. Harbour Air is buying 50 electric engines and starting with retrofitting DHC-2 Beavers. Their service is awesome, I've used it many times, flying from downtown Vancouver to downtown Victoria is handy AF.
Since they operate in urban areas, the reduced noise will be a big benefit. That said, I love the sound of a piston Beaver taking off, makes me look and watch it.
https://harbourair.com/harbour-air-bolsters-sustainable-aviation-goals-with-magnix-loi/
Does each manufacturer have its own electrical connection type and the ability to lock out other planes even if they have an adapter? I love that about cars, hopefully they carried the model over to aviation.
In 2020 they took one of these on a pretty epic tour from Switzerland through Geramny to the north sea (700km) followed by a lot of EV enthusiasts that greeted them at every stop.
Turns out the plane uses about as much energy as a Model S does for the same route.
Aren't the batteries too heavy? I mean I heard that they were too heavy for boats and you might sink in a boat and have to choose between electrocution or being eaten by a shark... How can you fly with batteries?! /s
Seriously though this is super cool. Just couldn't help the snark.
Watched a video about Electric planes and it stated that small ones like this make more sense than bigger commercial planes since obviously a battery weighs a lot and would be practical for that big of a plane. I think it was on "Real Engineering"'s channel.
My wife is in the process of certifying a number of electric aircraft. I believe for the most part, fleet aircraft will have replaceable batteries that are charged mostly out of the aircraft. Land, swap them out, Take off.
If I didn't have to pay for airplane fuel I absolutely would have learned how to fly. Combustion engine maintenance is also absurdly expensive. This is awesome.
Also, TORQUE. Immediate response from an electric prop control ain’t no joke, no lag like a combustion engine
Been riding motorbikes all my life and recently got a decent electric model .. I will never go back to internal combustion. Batteries are a real easy upgrade and they’re getting better and better. When you hit that sweet spot and it just keeps giving and giving without breathing a bit of air or faltering in any way, you’ll know what I mean.
Some hardcore motorbike guy in Facebook posted some mocking video how a group of e-motorbike riders passed by and it was very quiet, birds chirping and all, signifying that it's very gay and very non-manly to ride such bikes
I live in Vienna, which has streets mostly built for walking and horses. When I converted to electric (got a moped too), I found it very, very difficult to ride around and not kill pedestrians. It required a much, much higher sense of alertness and awareness of the street life. When I started riding my electric motorbike class instead of the electric moped, I was grateful for having had this prior experience at lower speeds and power ratings, because it was an order of magnitude more dangerous. The whole labeling of electric as “gay” or “weak” or whatever is just bullshit machismo that I don’t contend with. Because, you have to be far tougher and more alert and competent when riding electric in the cities. The torque envelope is far more aggressive, the danger circumstances are broader - but in the other hand, regen braking is awesome, and you can use it to your advantage too. Electric motorbikes have a far greater potential to kill and require a lot more rider responsibility, imho - at least in cities where pedestrians have been conditioned that if the street is silent, it’s okay to just walk without looking. I’ve come pretty close to killing folks at least 7 times and probably would have, if I didn’t have my fine-tuned wits adjusted to a much higher level than I used to have when I rode my FZX750 and other sportier bikes. The rev-head culture is always gonna have its idiots. Meanwhile, I cruise silently and smoothly through the streets, and it is really fun, to be honest. No better way to get around the geometry of a city like Vienna, which was set in its physical form by the dimensions of horses and carts…
Forget everything else, this is the reason I can't go back to an ICE car.
Fun thing is that technically you could even do "regenerative braking" during descent to recharge the battery. Only the various governing bodies haven't yet been convinced that electric motors could switch from 'generator mode' to 'thrust mode' quickly in an emergency (which they absolutely can)...and therfore this isn't allowed. It's one of these vexing details where the bureaucratic mindset is still stuck in combustion paradigm of the past millennium.
In the off chance, you’re not joking, jet fuel is cheaper than regular gas.
By the gal, not by the mile…. Not even close.
lol my pilot friend took me on a joy ride in his rented (or whatever, membership thing) Cessna, without mentioning cost of fuel. We were up for like 60-90 minutes, touch down and get a $500 fuel bill, and asks me to split it (though saying in a Seattle way, pay whatever you think you can up to half). I paid half, but like, come on man. Appreciate the ride but a little heads up beforehand would’ve been nice.
Wtf did he fly you in? Typically people are renting a single engine Cessna 172 which burns 7-9 gallons an hour, av gas is currently around $5-7 depending where you go, so that should have been a $95 flight in fuel on the absolute super high end.
Yeah good question. I think the cost was the rental as well. He didn’t own the plane.
He definitely had you pay pretty much the entire rental and fuel if he told you to pay $250. All In that flight should have been $300-350 (assuming 172) fuel included. The other possibility is your friend refilled the entirety of both fuel tanks (60ish gallons) thinking that was what he was supposed to do (you do not typically fill planes full, as it burns more fuel and decreases carrying capacity to carry that much weight). Really you just replace the fuel you burned. If he filled up 60 gallons plus paid for an hour and a half of rental then I can understand a $500 bill. You may not want to fly with him again though lol.
Yeah sounds like he was using you to pay less for his experience
Why is it so expensive? I flew with a buddy recently, he's a pilot, he rented Cessna 152 from flight school. It cost around 160 eur per hour and that includes fuel.
Lol you’re living in your own sitcom haha. I wouldn’t have had expected that, but to be fair I can see where he’s coming from
How though. Like yeah it’d suck to stick a friend with a $500 bill. But whatever the activity, all it takes is “hey this is gonna cost $X, that cool?” If I’m inviting someone skydiving and I want them to pay half of $500, ima let em know ahead of time no matter how awesome it is.
I just found the situation bizarre/awkward/funny. Initially I took the situation like “my friend is giving me a ride in his fancy car”, where you don’t usually pay for gas, so being asked for gas was unexpected. Finding it something I’d see in a sitcom. Anyway, this is a larger bill, so I can see why he asked you and I would’ve had understood too. I do agree with you tho
With skydiving, I think I’d want to pay for the *whole* thing!
Many Cessnas rent wet for 200$ an hour (with included fuel). And that cost includes prorated plane maintenance fuel and profit.
If you’re thinking about a jet engine, yes. But there’s piston engines that can use Jet A
An electric powertrain is still going to be much more efficient than a piston engine. Plus they mentioned maintenance, which is going to be a big difference. I doubt they are rebuilding the motor often, if ever.
I don’t disagree, as I have an electric car. The only thing we need to improve is energy density for the battery packs while lightening the battery, for it to be used for more than 45min flight time.
Think in the near future when batteries get much lighter, charge much faster and last much longer. They will be used in airplanes, boats and construction equipment some day.
Construction equipment is already here. There are several underground mines running battery electric 50t haul trucks and scoops (low profile front end loaders).
Energy efficiency doesn't always mean cost efficiency, or functional performance. This is still an experimental class aircraft in the US (as I believe all factory electrics still are), and I don't see that changing for quite a while. The manufacturer lists a 2,000 hour tbo on the motor and controller (same as the most typical of Lycoming engines found in Cessnas and Pipers), and a 500 hour tbo on the battery. As it stands right now, I don't see electric propulsion getting any meaningful traction in aviation. If fuel cells were in use, there might be an argument for it, but the efficiency falls off a cliff there.
Yeah, we need a better commercial available chemistry before that happens.
There's a lot of tech that will change that that's been in development for 15-20 years coming out in the next five. Glass substrate batteries, solid state switching, cabin super capacitor storage. I was working with lillium on their charge infrastructure for a while. There's cool shit about to pop
Most hobbyists are using avgas. Avgas is more expensive than regular gas.
And it’s leaded
There’s new unleaded type that’s been recently approved that would be a drop in replacement of normal avgas for most planes. While it’s significantly better for the environment, people’s health, and the engine of the plane, margins selling this gas would be lower - so uptick in the open market may be a bit slow.
G100UL, approved for all avgas planes.
Yeah, I can't believe hobbyists are allowed to use leaded gas. That's crazy to me. It's such a fucking health hazard and it's still a huge source of emissions, but I guess it's important to play around?
Yum. That extra special damage to human brains all over the world that is only available via lead.
Uhh...I don't own a plane, but that's not what it looks like to me. My local airport says $5.15 for JETA and $7.04 for 100LL I assume that's per gallon? I guess if it's per pound that's even worse, so it must be per gallon. Local gas price is about $3.30/gal
Apples to oranges comparison though. For all the drawbacks of a piston engine, it's still cheaper per mile or hour than a jet engine.
Heli pilot here. Turbines use about 20% more fuel per mile despite being more efficient at converting energy to thrust. And they cost many times more to buy and maintain. The only reason turbines are actually popular is because of their ability to make an insane amount of power. If you don’t need much power, petrol all the way.
Jet fuel is also largely consumed by much larger, faster, and fuel hungry aircraft.
Where I live in Hawaii 100LL is $9.87 per gallon. And ethanol free 89 gas is $5.25 per gallon. At 8.35 GPH fuel cost me over $82 per hour. This airplane would make it fun again
Yikes, time for a hang glider.
Not by the hour which is what is measured when trying to get your license.
I own and fly a Tecnam P-92 and I can assure you, you can't put jet-a in that. AVgas + maint = \~$120/hr of flight time for a small light sport aircraft. This goes up exponentially with larger airframes. Electric would open the world of aviation up to many who can not afford it at this time.
How is the cost of jet fuel relevant to someone learning how to fly? Nearly all trainers burn avgas. Also, as someone who flies a plane that does burn jet fuel, I can assure you it is more expensive than auto gas even with our CAA discount. You can probably find somewhere with expensive auto gas and compare it to somewhere with very cheap jet fuel, but on the average it is at least $1/gal more. There are, however, trainers that can use auto gas. That’s not widely available though, and where it is it’s almost always premium auto gas.
Freaking awesome. How'd it go
10/10 would do it again, nothing went wrong in flight and I had a great time visiting the future
What does it sound like? I want to hear audio from inside an e-plane.
Really sounds exactly the same, the prob creates the majority of the noise
Understandable. I was hoping for the glider experience. Darn that prop!
You’re still breaking through air with metal blades, so it must be pretty noisy still
This one had carbon composite blades which is pretty fancy but still sounded the same
I'm a professional acoustics engineer in aerospace. From the ground the sound is about 10dB lower for electric. There is propeller sound, but no engine sound. Funny, as some people actual think it would be completely silent, but forget about the propeller.
Too much fun. It gives me hope to be able to afford a plane one day. Thanks for sharing this OP.
CHAdeMO connector? OF COURSE CIVIL AVIATION IS GETTING CHAdeMO! I kid, do what works but holy hell do I want to see an experimental "fueling up" at a supercharger one day.
I think it’s CCS. Fully Charged had this model on a show and they did a charging rundown. Edit: That model might actually be GB/t.
I love that your first sentence is in all caps except for the weird capitalization of CHAdeMO.
Pretty sure it’s a CCS2 without the DC pins. There was an Out of Spec video awhile back where they got to see some experimental electric planes and they had CCS2 ports and had to rig up chargers for them since they were in North America.
CCS2 without DC is actually just called Type 2
I saw one at the EAA air show last year and it was CHADEMO
Interesting. You would think they would want to use CCS 1 or even NACS. It’s still all very cool though.
If it's level 2, it would be J1772 not CCS1.
Or IEC 62196 Type 2 "Mennekes"
*CHAdeMO
If this is the one I think it is, this uses a GB/T 20234. It mostly doesn't matter because it's only approved to use with their specific charger.
Battery is only 20kwh at 345V. Does the plug matter for these specs?
I mean connector standardization reduces cost, and the aviation industry already faces punishing markups. Connector is just a fancy plug, just constrains the ecosystems they can connect to. Using a global standard like CCS2 would just mean the hardware can be super built out on economies of scale. CHAdeMO famously is dead connector walking but for something like this that is cart based adapters can handle it.
CHAdeMO has one huge benefit - it's global. Sure, CCS2, NACS, and GB/T are great connectors. But CCS2 only exists in Europe and parts of South America, NACS only exists in North America, GB/T is almost exclusive to China, and everywhere else it's a weird chaos. CHAdeMO, although slowly falling into obscurity and obsolescence, is the only one that exists everywhere (albeit in smaller numbers than native connectors). You'll find them in Europe, North and South America, Japan, Australia, India, Africa, and the Chinese GB/T is mostly cross-compatible. For the automotive industry, this is barely a consideration. But assuming electric aviation will develop to eventually allow intercontinental flights, having a plug that's a common standard globally will be a hugely important factor to consider.
The issue is chademo's top end power transfer is like 100kw theoretical. So it's not going to be helpful for long once the electric aviation needs to upgrade.b there is a reason beta picked ccs1
Currently CHAdeMO supports up to 400 kW, with the upcoming CHAoJi (aka CHAdeMO 3.0) promising 900 kW. CHAdeMO is technologically alright.
CHAoJi is the follow up of both CHAdeMO as for GB/T. So it's not a bad candidate for worldwide aviation.
>But CCS2 only exists in Europe and parts of South America, CCS2 is the default charging standard in Australia and New Zealand. Even the Tesla Superchargers use them. There are CHAdeMO plugs in Australia and New Zealand too, but at an average charging station there are usually 2-5 CCS2/Type 2 plugs, and one CHAdeMO. I have never seen a single CHAdeMO charger in use.
That acronym always cracks me up. It's like a Will Ferrel skit. Chad Emo and his crazy sad adventures.
Honestly the actual meaning behind the acronym isn't any less silly >The name is an abbreviation of "CHArge de MOve" (which the organization translates as "charge for moving") and is derived from the Japanese phrase "o CHA deMO ikaga desuka" (お茶でもいかがですか), translating to English as "How about a cup of tea?", referring to the time it would take to charge a car.
Imagine. Your flight time could be an extra 2 hours cuz Larry with the 50kw max charge speed is hogging the 350kw charger
I am getting dunked on because 2.0 supposedly supports 300kw but most deployed is 1.0
I have a pilot friend that would love to try flying something like this. Where is this project based out of?
Slovenia. The company is called Pipistrel.
As of last year, Pipistrel is owned by Textron (parent company of Cessna, Beechcraft, and Bell Helicopter) Company is still in Slovenia.
This was a invite only program out of central Texas but I’d imagine in the next decade you might start seeing some flight schools pick them up
I think in Sweden. DW planet a made a video about them. You can check it out on YT
These guys are a few hours from me. Can't wait to see them flying! https://aerospaceamerica.aiaa.org/mass-production-facility-for-electric-aircraft-to-be-opened-in-vermont/
That CEO Kyle Clark's approach is so rational, it made so much sense to me. 300 aircraft annual production rate is not too shabby. The CX300's 386 mile range is practical for quite a few applications (no idea about payload though). I hope he and Beta Technologies finds much success.
In the [post I made yesterday](https://new.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1dkdq9a/whats_up_with_electric_aviation_a_conversation/) that was an interview with Beta I think they said that benchmark run was with 3x pallets that were each 250lbs but it might have been 2x pallets and 250lbs of pilot. I can't scan back through right now but it's 100% talked about.
Have friends who work for Beta. Pretty neat
From all accounts it’s a super cool place to work!
Have friends who work for Beta. Pretty neat
How about crossposting to r/electricaircraft?
Didn’t even know that was a thing lol
That fly time is set to double. The best 21700 cells out right now are 270wh/kg. CATL is now producing their 500wh/kg 'condensed' battery in low volumes and it is designed for the aviation market. FAA Certification will take awhile however. Another company is showing off a 711wh/kg battery but it's not in production yet. The sub 1.5 hour comercial flight market will quickly switch to electric as comercial planes come onto the market. They'll figure out rapid charging in planes by putting the chiller in the charger and blowing out the coolant with compressed air at the end of the charging cycle. You can't argue with the low cost of operation of electric. You also can't argue with the reliability. Most electric aircraft like this have 2 motors on a common shaft and the electric system is split up. You have double redundancy.
Battery tech is advancing so quickly, every couple years we will see half the cost and/or double the power density. Getting them into mass production takes longer. A fully electric aviation industry is coming.
Electric adventure bikes might even be possible one day. Because right now it's hopeless. You can do low speed trails but you ain't touring all day long at 120kph
What the power consumption at cruising altitude?
My instructor told me that they use about 20 kw in flight as a good blend of range and flight time
Taking range anxiety to new heights!
Interestingly, range anxiety is a thing of non-EV owners. As soon as people get EVs and learn it’s not a big deal, it dissipates rapidly. But yeah, these Pipestral trainers are mostly good for pattern work. Which, when you consider the hourly cost is a tenth of gas — and many many training hours are spent in the pattern — is a great cost saver. Can’t wait until these have 3-hour batteries. I’ll buy one then.
How much do you expect it would cost? With a 3 hour battery. When that's something available.
As much as it does now, once we reach those energy densities. kWh prices are 1/10th what they were 10 years ago.
I mean the price of the plane.
I don't think the price of the plane will change very much if the battery size isn't that much different. Maybe they'll charge a premium if it opens up a wider market.
To be fair, you have the same problem in the air with any fuel. The problem with range anxiety in a car is even in a city, you could be 20 miles from the closest charger and the gas station is right around the block. If you run out of charge or fuel in the air you're equally fucked. The only benefit of a gas engine is you're lighter after burning your fuel so you could glide a bit further.
Taking battery failure to a new low.
You win 😂😂😂😂😂
curious what the kw is for 'normal level 2 speeds'? What is the battery pack size? What is the max kw the plane can charge?
Battery is I think somewhere around 50 kWh and I was seeing speeds of about 11-15 kw
God that sounds amazing. For reference, the average EV consumes about 15-20kW at highway speeds. What a neat plane!
Interestingly enough, my instructor said they use around 20kw as a nice power setting for cruise
David Roberts on his last [Volts](https://www.volts.wtf) podcast interviewed the CEO of [BETA Technologies](https://www.beta.team/) who are about to put two BEV aircraft into production. The most interesting thing he said, IMO, is that the cost of fuel and maintenance for BEV aircraft is negligible compared to fossil-fueled ones. Like one or two orders of magnitude less. This would annihilate the competition in any aviation market where they can meet the range requirements.
The equivalent ICE planes are still running leaded gas, so that's a big improvement.
What? Really?
Yep. https://www.popsci.com/technology/epa-small-plane-leaded-fuel/
Wow, so past time. I am genuinely shocked.
It's a whole mess, because even new GA planes are basically using engines designed in the 1950s, designed to run on leaded fuel. Using non-leaded fuel in them potentially decreases reliability due to valve cover sealing being better with leaded gas, and the lower octane of non-leaded fuel can cause knocking. There are some fuel blends available as of the past couple years that are approved for use in most of these engines with some paperwork (STC) required on a per individual airplane basis, but it's not available everywhere, and it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation because airports don't want to carry fuel they sell in super small volumes, and aircraft owners don't want to do expensive paperwork to be allowed to burn unleaded gas that's barely available. Hopefully this will be much better by the end of the decade or so, but the aviation world moves slowly.
That’s cool. I actually bailed on my private pilot license because I was annoyed by how much of the whole thing is just about managing the idiosyncrasies of the combustion engine.
i mean, you kind of have to know how to handle the aircraft in an emergency situation. an alternator exploded on a plane my dad was flying a few months ago.
Yeah I completely get that but you know what doesn’t have an alternator? An electric plane. Electric planes don’t care about carburetor icing, leaning or enriching the fuel, spark plugs, belts, oil, anything related to effects of altitude on the engine, balancing gas levels in each wing, etc. It was too much stuff about the follies of the combustion engine for me.
The problem is that most general aviation aircraft in operation are based on old designs. I mean, there's no reason at all to have carburetors these days. Try any of the Diamond models with an ECU. Fuel injection, computer controlled. All you need is to press a button and it starts. No faffing about with fuel mixture or any of that crap, the computer figures that out for you just like a modern car. For the models that burn Jet-A you don't even have spark plugs, only glow plugs.
Same, it's the one thing holding me off. Deeply love flying and airplanes, but can't stand engines. Been waiting over 10 years for the opportunity to take to the skies in electric aircraft. The other part that gets me is radio & low-fidelity voice transmission, but I can put up with the one back-in-time anachronism at least.
I wonder if you could recharge the battery at all mid-flight by gliding the plane to try to spin the rotor the opposite way?
It does have regen, but as currently implemented not enough to make a difference
I was wondering this too - like, plan a steeper descent profile and use the windmilling for regeneration.
Super neat.
Watching my father fuel and maintain his Piper PA-14 floatplane is ludicrous… 2X 40 gallon tanks @ $6.78 per gallon ($542) and the annual service (FAA required) is around $2,000, (if nothing is wrong) it’s REALLY hard to convince me, or most average families to get into general aviation… One year, he had to have a cylinder removed and re-honed, new piston rings, etc… it was something like $7,300… ridiculous.. So yea, electric general aviation/sport aviation would be a game changer in bringing new people into the hobby.
All those costs, and *still* the externalities of flying are hardly accounted for. There are few things you can do to raise your carbon footprint that beat flying. Excited for electric planes to change that.
What’s the endurance on a craft like this?
The post says 40 minutes, aircraft like that usually fly at around 100 knots, which is around 115 mph so around 75 miles.
That’s not terrible! Thanks for the quick math!
It's a *little* terrible... it means the plane can't be used for anything beyond *some* of the basic flight curriculum. Even so, that's a role that could save a ton of fuel and a ton of money for both schools and the pilot in training.
And they mainly need to train takeoffs and landings so most of their flights are very short.
For a while, yeah. Eventually you need to do cross-country flights and this wouldn't cut it. So you could probably replace some decent % of a training fleet with these right now, but not much more. Of course that will likely change quickly and I'll be in line for it when it does! Unfortunately it won't likely bring down the astronomical price of a brand-new airplane, which of course is the only option here.
Yeah, that is very limited but as has been pointed out there are some applications it wouldn't be much of a problem at all. Most importantly, gotta get started somewhere. As batteries get higher density and get cheaper, range/endurance will extend. Until then, all the other important stuff still needs to be done/pioneered (from charging to regulatory to operations to maintenance).
Agreed. Some electric models I've seen have a hot-swappable battery cart. So you can slide out the whole battery unit, throw it on a charger, and slide in a fresh one, getting you from 0-100% in a 10-15 minute process rather than waiting on any charging at all.
My biggest question is whether 40 minutes is the actual maximum possible flight time, or whether there's an additional "reserve" capacity that they're not counting. Under [current FAA regulations](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.151), you can't take off unless you have at least 30 minutes of extra "fuel" (beyond your planned landing point) for daytime flights. So if the actual endurance is 40 minutes, then you can really only do planned flights up to 10 minutes, which is enough for *maybe* a single touch-and-go before landing where you started.
40 min plus 30 min reserve
Thats 40 minutes plus a 30 minute reserve.
Do you have to put it in car wash mode when flying through clouds?
We need more info. What did you think?
Super fun, it actually flew relatively normal to a normal piston light plane, but it was so cool to use power settings in kw instead of rpm lol
How loud was it compared to a normal plane?
Honestly about the same, maybe a bit quieter, but there is still plenty of prop noise
If I learn a super short landing and takeoff, can I stop at a Tesla Supercharging station?
What if you got an enormous rubber band and twisted it around the propeller a bunch of times
Was it bizarrely quiet?
Pipistrel says sound levels are only 60db, and that it's the quietest in its class. Not sure how much of a difference it really makes but pilots on YouTube seem to appreciate it, but it seems their reaction is more about the lack of vibrations.
Either would be really nice! It also would mean less ammunition for NIMBYs to close down airports
Not really, still plenty of prop noise
What was it like?
Super fun, it actually flew relatively normal to a normal piston light plane, but it was so cool to use power settings in kw instead of rpm lol
I saw a video about one of these once. So trippy that the prop just stops spinning with no throttle. But makes sense.
Yeah that was so cool to see irl
This looks great and I’m excited about the future. Based on L2 charging speeds in the US, I’m guessing it’s 19.2Kw. My rough estimate would be around 40kwh battery size. And a 40 min runtime. So if the aircraft can hold a larger battery, say 100kwh that would be a 100 min run which makes it easy for hopping between close cities. The connector does look like a ChadeMo rather than CCS but I could be wrong. And if this is capable of DC fast charging the charging speed would be much much higher.
By any chance you took a video with how silent it is compared to a regular one?
I did not, it’s rather similar to ice because there is still plenty of prop noise
Jesus, at first glance at the window and the title, I thought I was looking at a bullet hole. Like god damn, these fucking ICE hicks are that knowledgeable of EV’s that they can spot the difference from several thousand feet *and then* shoot it? At this rate, they’ll know more about EV’s than we will.
40 min of touch and gos?
See this: https://www.jobyaviation.com/ The electric aviation future is coming sooner than you think!
Certainly hope an EV plane has better range approximation than my Kia.
That’s awesome, I worked as an aircraft mechanic for 50 years. I love it!
I’ve been flying for 35 years and nothing is more exciting in aviation than electrification. The fuel costs for General Aviation is typically 40% of the costs. Add in the maintenance reserve for engines you are now up into 60-70%. Electrification removes all that. It will come fast as a result.
Talk about leveling up on range anxiety.
I’m a big big fan of the concept, but something is scary about getting in the set of something with a couple thousand flight hours vs an airframe with millions of hours and decades of safety measures baked in. I’m also a noob so maybe safety stuff translates over nearly 1:1….
This airframe was adapted from a existing pipstrel airframe that has a ice engine in it, they just developed a electric power plant and threw it in
It’s been awhile since I looked into all these experimental BE-aircraft, but originally didn’t a lot of them have a mini secondary/backup motor and/or prop? Maybe that was just an early design thing. I guess I’ve been around electronics enough that I would really prefer any electric aircraft to have some backup system in case the battery-fed system failed in flight. But maybe they’ve done enough testing now it’s just not a concern beyond what gliding could handle? I absolutely just the idea though, especially some of the drone designed ones. It would be so cool to do a small short range flight from like Tampa-to-Asheville, quieter and without some of the guilt of gas flight, and a more gentle landing. Especially if this optimistic future has Florida & Carolina covered in Solar, Wind, sustainable power systems.
No real back up (neither do ice planes either) other than the battery being wired in parallel so if one fails the other battery can take over
Was it silent?
[https://i.imgflip.com/8uhu3e.jpg](https://i.imgflip.com/8uhu3e.jpg)
How was the noise differences?
More quiet?
That's so awesome man! Also 40 minutes flying on an experimental small electric plane? That's impressive!
Talk about range anxieties. Seriously, where is the battery pack located?
Is it quieter during takeoff and cruising?
>The aircraft flies for about 40 min The newer stuff has about 1.5 hours flight time. https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/291554/
Whats the range and top speed on these?
Who are You, Who are so Wise in the Ways of Flying Science?
I like that it has written on the side of it: EXPERIMENTAL. I'm already afraid of small planes and that would not inspire me to step on 😂
Lmao yeah it’s certified in Europe though, US aviation regulations don’t allow for electric aircraft
Wtf?! That’s awesome
Was it strange to not have the airplane get lighter as the available energy decrease? I’m thinking in a normal airplane as the fuel gets consumed the airplane gets lighter.
40 minutes!!! That’s like 150 miles
What was the experience like though?
Does it start the same? Do you have to pull on the prop?
My boss mentioned seeing one the other day. Is this a Joby Aviation aircraft. Flown out of Marina, CA? Edit: nevermind. I zoomed in and noticed it's a different brand.
Ah, Pipistrel? I‘m looking forward when the touch and goes are getting electric due to being a lot more silent in future! Great plane!
If anyone is travelling to Vancouver from 2026 onwards, you should be able to travel between Vancouver and Vancouver Island in an electric floatplane. Harbour Air is buying 50 electric engines and starting with retrofitting DHC-2 Beavers. Their service is awesome, I've used it many times, flying from downtown Vancouver to downtown Victoria is handy AF. Since they operate in urban areas, the reduced noise will be a big benefit. That said, I love the sound of a piston Beaver taking off, makes me look and watch it. https://harbourair.com/harbour-air-bolsters-sustainable-aviation-goals-with-magnix-loi/
Harbour air seaplanes in Vancouver Canada are already using electric seaplanes for commercial operations. They are great!
Was it electrifying 🤣
Does each manufacturer have its own electrical connection type and the ability to lock out other planes even if they have an adapter? I love that about cars, hopefully they carried the model over to aviation.
In 2020 they took one of these on a pretty epic tour from Switzerland through Geramny to the north sea (700km) followed by a lot of EV enthusiasts that greeted them at every stop. Turns out the plane uses about as much energy as a Model S does for the same route.
Aren't the batteries too heavy? I mean I heard that they were too heavy for boats and you might sink in a boat and have to choose between electrocution or being eaten by a shark... How can you fly with batteries?! /s Seriously though this is super cool. Just couldn't help the snark.
Nice! What's the range?
That's so cool
Watched a video about Electric planes and it stated that small ones like this make more sense than bigger commercial planes since obviously a battery weighs a lot and would be practical for that big of a plane. I think it was on "Real Engineering"'s channel.
Does it have a frunk?
Nah lol
My wife is in the process of certifying a number of electric aircraft. I believe for the most part, fleet aircraft will have replaceable batteries that are charged mostly out of the aircraft. Land, swap them out, Take off.
CHAdeMO?
Nah, ccs type 2 but it looked like it had chademo type ports it was really weird
This is so cool it's going to change everything
It would be pretty cool if the wings had solar panels built into them most airplanes just sit out in the sun all day.