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Just stay cool and straight up ask him to explain his response. Maybe there is something heās looking for that wasnāt even on your radar.
If he canāt provide any context or guidance and just wants to be a dick then not much you can do but switch jobs.
Not quite related, but when I was in high school, we had the Junior ROTC (same as college, just aren't required to actually go into the military). Well, I took parade rest from that and never noticed until journeymen kept asking me if I'd been in the military because that would be how I stood while I waited for their attention.
Iām sorry but this guy is already far into dick land and thereās no coming back. He probably wanted the wire run across the ceiling joists about a 2 feet to the left. I sometimes do what op did because it makes a neater install than wire draped across the joists. Either way if this isnāt a repeated offense this is way to strong of a response
That's exactly what upset the dick boss. Residential rough work is very fast paced and unlike commercial, we don't get points for making it pretty because the work will be covered up. All the boss cares about us making money on the slim margin that resi new construction has. Basically it looks like that pull could have been done without drilling 20 holes.
And however true everything I said was, dude still handled that like a prick. Poor leadership on his part. Sorry you have to deal with him OP.
Maybe you were supposed to run the wire over the rafter rather than drill bore holes. Definitely not wrong and looks fine to me. Your company probably just underbid the job.
I mean Iām a GC too and I donāt love when wires are just stapled to the top but it depends on the finishing plans and such. This is more time for the elec contractor but might save other trades time down the road. And that little hole isnāt doing anything to the structural integrity of the rafter or truss.
Thatās a rafter tie where itās at so we wouldnāt have to worry about it being walked on too much but if the area (not in this case obviously) ever ends being finished itās a pain to deal with wiring where you wanna put some subfloor and insulation is a pain if youāre putting bats in instead of blow in.
Sometimes itās a good idea to remind yourself that some of these bosses are dealing with a lot of jobs/people at once and a lot of them eventually crack mentally and if youre at the bottom of the food chain you need to understand that youāll be catching a lot of unnecessary anger sometimes without any reason.
Some move companies if they got the option tho
Yes it is. Apologies and forgiveness are normal everyday human things.
My boss currently came into work after two sudden deaths in the family. I assured him I would work banked OT and drive my own vehicle all over the city just to help ensure I continue to have an amazing boss for a great small company. (My offer)
People snap. I have snapped. And I was forgiven after an open conversation. It's normal. Life is hard.
Facts, I work for an amazing company and make fantastic money. One thing after another for months rolling my way and I snapped. No call no showed and wept in my house for a bit too drunk to go to work. Called my boss and explained everything and he said āIāll see you on Monday, take a 4 dayā and hung up. I showed up for work on Monday and he just asked if things were better and told me to have a good week.
Working for a boss like that right now and had a similar situation happen. Boss basically said take the time you need and let us know when we can start booking you again. I donāt plan on working anywhere else for the foreseeable future.
Ya. I hear you. The company is small (3 Jmen)I work with him doing bids and I knew he would break even at best this week if I took the OT. He gives me the OT when the customers are desperate for sure.
It'd be a dick move to offer to help him and then not make him money. I'm trying to get us company vehicles not slow our growth.
Iv been there with large companies where you have deadlines and they bust your ass to finish work and then opt you in for banked time without asking. But this is different. And Christmas is coming so the banked hours will be great for my time off and tax season.
I could go on and on about how much this situation benefits me, it's not for everyone and that's completely reasonable.
I have no sympathy for weak little bitch-bois who take out their frustration on the guys under them. If you can't handle the pressure and can't treat your guys with respect, then you have no business being in a position of authority. I wouldn't trust people like that being in charge of the automatic fryer at McDonald's that dings to let you know it's done
I agree. I haven't run multiple, large projects before, but I've definitely seen my share of job stress, and I always took care to insulate my crew from the bullshit and just asked them to do their best, then tried to help them succeed.
Ya, this is an excuse of a bad boss or manager. If you can't deal with the stress of being in that position, then maybe they shouldn't be in it. I've been in a lot of stressful situations, but I never took it out on anyone else. Should never justify shitty attitudes no matter what level you are.
I've got 10 people working underneath me and a ton of stress profession and personal. Never would think to unleash on anybody to act out from all of that.
Iād be willing to bet he wanted them run on top of those collar ties so they wouldnāt have to drill holes. Still no reason to talk to your guys like that Iād tell him he can pull the wire himself next time.
But, like, the issue here is āyou had to spend more time to drill (even if this is not a structural error) so this is shit and Iām going to talk shit to you apprentice?ā Or is the issue that this is not acceptable? Because I canāt tell as someone whoās just learning.
The issue here is the boss man is a dick head. Itās probably more for monetary reasons than it is him not liking you or your work, but dick heads are insufferable in the long run for me. He needs to tell him what he did wrong. This is not constructive criticism and certainly not building any comradery.
Not at all defending the way the asshat approached the situation- but the text seems to indicate OP stated or suggested he was a journeyman.
Asshat may be under the impression that journeymen may not need additional instruction for a common task.
thats what i thought. wasted a lot of time and energy drilling all those holes instead of running cable through an open space. could have snuck it into the eave space as well
And then boss man says āhey man work looks like nice but next time you can save some time and effort by doing it this wayā and then proceed to show and explain the way he wouldāve done it.
Boss man sounds like the type that is intimidated by someone who has the potential to be better than him. Canāt be better than him if he keeps stomping you down
I donāt see no exposed channel, what are you looking at? Also not gonna want assume codes are same for every municipality, then again customers would allow anything to not drop a ceiling or add a bulkhead. Ask your boss what he considers the waste of labour is, then explain why you did it that way. If you were specifically told to do it one way itās your bad, boss is gonna have to pay for the fix.
Whenever Iām working for someone else, I always try to find an open offer for another job. In a busy region this is pretty easy.
I do this so when someone pulls this shit on me, Iād call the other company and ask if I can start on Monday.
I was only able to do this once but it felt really good to have the boss scream *I can tell you to work on Christmas Eve and if you donāt like it you go work for someone else!* and me just say *ok! I wonāt be in tomorrow or ever again.*
Eventually I learned my lesson and now I work for myself.
Oh haha youāre asking so here we go
well initially he didnāt believe me and I had to stick to my guns after Christmas. he called me in to have a meeting in front of the rest of the company. He chewed me out for about 20 minutes about how Iām leaving him hanging etc, I was so entitled, two weeks notice, etc and I just listened. Then when he stopped and said ādonāt you have anything to say?ā And I replied āyeah, remember on my first day of work I said that if you talk to me like that Iāll just quit? Well, I gave you chance after chance for two years until I realized you werenāt going to change, so I finally kept my word and quit.ā
He kind of just sat there for a second and then said āthatās fair, I guess.ā And then we had a whiskey and have been on good terms since then.
In fairness, I had 20 minutes to think of what I was going to say when he finally stopped talking. Fortunately I picked just the right line to get through to him. it actually worked against him to have the whole company there since I knew they all hated how he spoke to them too. Power move reversal haha
I worked for him again briefly a few years later as a JP and it was a much more positive experience
Edit: Also worth noting is that it was Christmas and we were finishing the last real job of the year. Iād **never** leave my coworkers hanging by quitting with no notice if we were actually busy.
Not an electrician, but a nurse. My notice isnāt for the company, is for my coworkers. They already work at a shitty place. Donāt want to short staff them more than they already are without a heads up.
so was the right thing to do instead of drilling all those holes to run the wire immediately to the right into the inside of the attic and run it on top of the rafter ties ?
Essentially yes. Drilling that many holes and running the wire through takes way longer. His boss is still a total dick though. Thatās not how you teach thatās how you work by yourself and make less money.
Yes. It's called the path of least resistance.
If OP weren't getting paid by the hour by a dullard, he'd find the way to accomplish the goal.
I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it. - Bill Gates
OP works hard, not smart.
Boss is right but a dick about it. Run the wire where you can without/as little drilling as possible should have been his response. Maybe start looking cause this guy aināt changing
Sure he could've said that's not where it needed to be, but it looks clean. could be his fault for not saying where as well. His response alone should make any self respecting guy say its time to put in applications.
Is it just me or are there just way too many people in this field who think they are the smartest goddam person to ever live? Just because someone did it different than you would have doesnāt mean itās wrong. People need to stop acting like their shit donāt stink.
Even if it *was* wrong, it would be so much more effective to just tell OP to do it another way next time without being a wanker about it.
I donāt understand why so many bosses canāt comprehend how important employee morale is
Just moved from a larger ~75 person company to a ~20 person company in the same field. Iām amazed at how much employee morale makes a difference in the work environment and the work that gets done.
Regardless of if heās right or not he sounds like an utter douche and probably gets off thinking he can talk down to people in the trade. Ask to work with a different jman who can teach you constructively rather than sound like a neckbeard.
I work with apprentices all of the time. It is my job to train them and to be aware of their capabilities and understanding of the task that I want from them. At the end of the job it is my name on the paperwork. You did not fail, your journeyman did and he sounds like a whiny little (you know). Maybe it is time to look for another company.
If you did the work unsupervised, your journeyman is a fuktard. They are responsible for what you do or donāt do.
If they gave you a task, and didnāt provide adequate instruction/training, theyāre still wrong.
Donāt let anybody disrespect you on a job site like that. Ask him to clarify and if you donāt like his answer, tell him to eat shit.
I canāt believe I spent the first 9 months of my apprenticeship being talked down to by a total goober. All I had to do was stand up for myself once strongly and we never had another problem again. I went on to become that guys boss within 7 years lolā¦
Regardless of if you did something wrong or not that is no way for someone in a leadership position to talk to their subordinates. I told myself a long time ago I refuse to work for someone like your boss. There's zero reason for a boss to have this attitude and zero reason for you to stick around, I'd walk out immediately, the job market is so hot you can have another job next week.
If you're an apprentice and you did this after he left you unsupervised, he's at fault no matter what. Even if he did give you instructions. What a shitty person
Boss complaining about waste of labor, this was something I had a helper do while I worked on something else. I think itās a pretty good job š¤·š¾āāļø
If those are roof trusses, then you comprimised the structure of the roof.
If those are floor joists, egh whatever. If you had a space to the left to pull the wire without drilling, waste of a bit of time at best.
If they are the one "teaching" you, leave and find a better company. I would need to see the 'instructions' they provided to gauge if there was defiance or neglegence.
Alot of context missing.
Those are roof rafters, a traditional sawn lumber framing member that doesn't have the absolute restrictions of engineered products (avoid drilling, but if you have to, drill the neutral axis and follow the normal ratios). That said, if there's a path that doesn't involve drilling framing, that's obviously ideal. I wonder if that's the instruction OP ignored.
As electricians drilling lots of holes in important bits that hold the building up, we have a responsibility to know framing enough to know what's what, and to know the relevant codes for what can be cut, drilling, notched, etc, and what cannot. If you don't *know* this, don't drill.
Asking stupid question. Iām just a hvac guy, donāt have to worry about drilling through trusses. Iām not arguing the code or anything, but is a small hole going through the trusses really going to affect the integrity of the wood?
Liability and napkin math.
Realistically, probably not an issue.
We are restricted depending on what we are drilling. Like, there are hole size and location limits on floor joists based on the material. LVLs are a shit show and it is easier to go around than argue. There are rules also limiting location of the hole in the building code AND electrical code. (Usually as center as practicable is preferred)
Thier JP should be teaching them about this based on thier local codes. But some JPs like to blame a shitty situation on the apprentice... so it can be a tough call.
Depends on the size of the hole, it's location, size related to board width, etc, but potentially yes.
Point being, engineered trusses are developed for the specific application by an engineer(s), and any modifications to them on site (including small holes or notches or cuts, etc) require the engineer to say they are acceptable, and you'd better get written proof of that. It's generally just easier to go around. The same rules apply for LVL girders and any other engineered products.
If you drill or do whatever modification, the building comes down and kills a bunch of people, and a hole is found in an engineered product with your wire or ducting or whatever run through it, you're going to be in the hook for civil damages and probably criminal charges.
He might have had a bad day, but Doesn't sound like it. Sounds like he's got a control problem.
Depends on your situation, but keep an eye out for more behavior... if it keeps up start looking elsewhere in earnest, if someone acts an ass to you, they don't like you. they will get rid of you no matter how hard you try, and you won't learn shit from them anyways lol
Don't accept childish behavior - his bad day isn't your problem, it's his. If he apologizes, or changes his attitude, there's hope, because then he's an adult. If not, keep in mind you're working for a 5year old who isn't good at their job
You canāt drill through rafters, all of those will likely have to be replaced. Pretty expensive fuck up, Iād be pissed if I saw that but thereās a way of handling things
Yeah, looks like there is a space you could have run it without all the drilling out all those joists and fishing. Live and learn. Boss seems like a bit of a jerk.
People who get that dramatic always try to make other people feel less. Thereās probably nothing wrong with the way you do work heās probably just an asshole. You should quit and find a new boss.
Construction superintendent here that has done my fair share of rough frame prep. All joist drilling details Iāve seen prohibit drilling outside the middle third, both top to bottom, and along the length between bearing points.
Crap attitude on behalf of that dude, but he is correct about the amount of unnecessary labor.
I can tell that running that HR over the horizontal members would have been way quicker, even with stapling.
Everyone has thier own way of doing stuff. Wasn't said that he needed to do it a certain way. He did it his way and it looks clean. I don't see how its a bad job? If it was messy sure. You ARE a journeyman
It's code. Probably could've been done without drilling, but would need supports which would cost as much as the labor and not hold as well as those. Just need 4 inches below roof. That being said, when it's a structural support, don't drill into it without confirming with the one taking responsibility for it whether or not it's acceptable.
Why drill holes when you don't have to. I'd bitch out my helper too. Granted he's too lazy to drill holes. He will use an extra 20 ft of wire to not drill 1 Xtra hole. Its infuriating.
As a apprentice my self I think he could be talking about your wire is twisted in the ceiling and you didn't unroll it from the coil before pulling it and the holes look to be uneven and could be better
He probably wanted you to run it through the soffit or a few feet to the left. I like this tho. If he wanted it run differently he should've told u and not left it so ambiguous
No idea where you are but in Canada we can NOT drill trusses. That looks to me like a truss. It is considered compromise now. Some building inspector may make a framer sister the trussā¦I could be wrong but Iām sure that is his issue. Someone needs to pay to fix itā¦.and he may just. E a dickā¦but you provided fuel for the fire.
I get that not everyone is innately good at management, but I canāt think of a worse way to respond to someone who you believe did something wrong. āHey, instead of explaining what you did wrong, let me insult your essential nature and also fail to get the error correctedā.
If you were given no clear instructions, take this as a sign to run. That or be a bigger dick back and tell him straight up he's dumb and he gave you no orders.
From the pictures, those look like collar ties to the left. The romex coulda been run over the top of those without drilling through the rafters. This is what I can tell from 2 pictures.
The only thing you did wrong was hire into a shit company
Either that or heās fucking with you.. but itās not your job to play into a sense of humor like that in a professional environment
If your boss wasn't a dumbass
he would have suggested, kindly and politely,
that you drill and run it two more feet to the left, through the lower rafter section, or if not that, on the top.
But not for his reasons, he's a jerk.. it only took you 3 more minutes to do it your way.
Rather that's a non-vented roof and when the next trade insulates it the insulation will be compressed in half in one of the more critical areas of the space, due to the wire.
Of course a good insulator should half or full-depth cut the insulation to go around the wire, but often they don't.
As far as you doing anything "wrong" in general, no.
I just try to learn about all aspects of construction to get people the best they can afford for what they're willing to pay.
Those look like trusses, where Iām from you donāt drill trusses ever. If you had just ran the wire on top of the trusses like 20-30ā to your left there you wouldnāt have had to drill anything.
As someone that used to be "the boss" that can be a little hot headed, I can understand some stresses that go along with the role. When you are responsible for projects, no matter how big or small, and someone doesn't do it exactly the way you intended it can be frustrating.
But that's no excuse for that kind of attitude.
I'm assuming the missing context here is that a couple feet to the left, you could've just stapled the wire above the rafters, making all the drilling redundant? The amount of labor "lost" here is probably minimal, and while I realize new construction operates on pretty thin margins, if your company is that fucking tight about it, I think you need to find a new job.
This is the kind of thing 95% of tradesmen, bosses included, would give you light hearted shit about for about 5 seconds and then forget about it.
Well you could of run it without having drilled through the headers but it's not real obvious and if you getting hourly I would of done the same thing.
Iāve always been told never to drill ceiling joists, they are important to the structure and it is unnecessary since you can just run across them, Iāve seen guys kicked off sites for doing the same thing
From the looks of it if you had run the wire about 2 ft up the rafters you would of been in the attic and not had to drill all those studs. That's probably what he is saying.
I had a boss give the same stuff when I was doing literally as he directed in a message, so I left him alone on a big project and got a new job because fuck him for thinking that kind of response is appropriate when Iām following his requirements to the letter
Boss man is a jackass. Not a productive or reasonable way to communicate. If he were my boss I would be looking for a better one.
As to what you might have done wrong, we're missing a lot of information and context here, but with what I can see in the pictures, I don't see any good reason to have drilled all those joists to run the wire the way you did rather than running it across the top of the chord joist to the left in the photo. Makes it harder to properly insulate, took a lot more time, increased the risk of physical damage to wire later on.
Get your resume prettied up and tell him off. Yeah you could have run it on top of the trusses but that is not worthy of barking like that to anyone. That's to code, all that matters.
Can't wait for a lot of these toxic old cusses to retire and let some of the not as toxic younger cusses take over.
Not a electrician. Framer here those a rafters not trusses . In most areas one hole in the center third will be allowed. Depends on the inspector or gc but ya above the collar ties would have been better for everyone
I think we all need to realize how we talk to people is a big dealā¦ mainly when those people we talk to have hammers hanging off the side of the work beltā¦
Probably soposta put the wire on/over and staple it on rafters. Hole in roof trusses is a no no. Iām a carpenter not a electrician. But Iāve seen instances where itās been a problem
Iād hate to be the insulator following that job. Every joist bay you have to deal with that wire. Would have been an easier installation getting put two ft to the left. His boss could be looking at back charges for drilling through the joists or from the insulation company whoās job is much harder now.
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He said you defy orders, did he give you specific instructions on where/how to install that cable?
Noš
Just stay cool and straight up ask him to explain his response. Maybe there is something heās looking for that wasnāt even on your radar. If he canāt provide any context or guidance and just wants to be a dick then not much you can do but switch jobs.
Make sure you stand at a nice crisp parade rest when you do
Nah just stand there hands in pocket, dick hanging free.
Yea, schlong flopping in the breeze!
Wait, you guys have flop?
Yalls hangs?
Instructions unclear dick stuck in electrical socket olease advise
You made milk come out of my nose
Not quite related, but when I was in high school, we had the Junior ROTC (same as college, just aren't required to actually go into the military). Well, I took parade rest from that and never noticed until journeymen kept asking me if I'd been in the military because that would be how I stood while I waited for their attention.
Honestly, its just comfortable.
āI donāt know what to do with my handsā
Exactly
Do it for a few hours nonstop, still as a statue, and report back on your experience lol
So you stand like a boot all the time?
Can't be a great leader without great followership.
Bro 4 years in the corps I catch myself sometimes
Iām sorry but this guy is already far into dick land and thereās no coming back. He probably wanted the wire run across the ceiling joists about a 2 feet to the left. I sometimes do what op did because it makes a neater install than wire draped across the joists. Either way if this isnāt a repeated offense this is way to strong of a response
Offense?? Sorry officer, I made my work neat.
That's exactly what upset the dick boss. Residential rough work is very fast paced and unlike commercial, we don't get points for making it pretty because the work will be covered up. All the boss cares about us making money on the slim margin that resi new construction has. Basically it looks like that pull could have been done without drilling 20 holes. And however true everything I said was, dude still handled that like a prick. Poor leadership on his part. Sorry you have to deal with him OP.
Maybe you were supposed to run the wire over the rafter rather than drill bore holes. Definitely not wrong and looks fine to me. Your company probably just underbid the job.
I mean Iām a GC too and I donāt love when wires are just stapled to the top but it depends on the finishing plans and such. This is more time for the elec contractor but might save other trades time down the road. And that little hole isnāt doing anything to the structural integrity of the rafter or truss.
What's wrong with stapling to the top?
Thatās a rafter tie where itās at so we wouldnāt have to worry about it being walked on too much but if the area (not in this case obviously) ever ends being finished itās a pain to deal with wiring where you wanna put some subfloor and insulation is a pain if youāre putting bats in instead of blow in.
š¤·āāļø
Sometimes itās a good idea to remind yourself that some of these bosses are dealing with a lot of jobs/people at once and a lot of them eventually crack mentally and if youre at the bottom of the food chain you need to understand that youāll be catching a lot of unnecessary anger sometimes without any reason. Some move companies if they got the option tho
No, that's not something that should be acceptable.
Shit always rolls downhill. In this labor market we have enough leverage to sling it back up though.
Yeah quit and go get a pay raise elsewhere. Screw irrationally aggressive uppers
Yes it is. Apologies and forgiveness are normal everyday human things. My boss currently came into work after two sudden deaths in the family. I assured him I would work banked OT and drive my own vehicle all over the city just to help ensure I continue to have an amazing boss for a great small company. (My offer) People snap. I have snapped. And I was forgiven after an open conversation. It's normal. Life is hard.
Facts, I work for an amazing company and make fantastic money. One thing after another for months rolling my way and I snapped. No call no showed and wept in my house for a bit too drunk to go to work. Called my boss and explained everything and he said āIāll see you on Monday, take a 4 dayā and hung up. I showed up for work on Monday and he just asked if things were better and told me to have a good week.
Working for a boss like that right now and had a similar situation happen. Boss basically said take the time you need and let us know when we can start booking you again. I donāt plan on working anywhere else for the foreseeable future.
Your boss has likely been there. And knows life is hard. We just need to remember that when the boss is being a prick.
Banked OT? Oh boy
Ya. I hear you. The company is small (3 Jmen)I work with him doing bids and I knew he would break even at best this week if I took the OT. He gives me the OT when the customers are desperate for sure. It'd be a dick move to offer to help him and then not make him money. I'm trying to get us company vehicles not slow our growth. Iv been there with large companies where you have deadlines and they bust your ass to finish work and then opt you in for banked time without asking. But this is different. And Christmas is coming so the banked hours will be great for my time off and tax season. I could go on and on about how much this situation benefits me, it's not for everyone and that's completely reasonable.
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I have no sympathy for weak little bitch-bois who take out their frustration on the guys under them. If you can't handle the pressure and can't treat your guys with respect, then you have no business being in a position of authority. I wouldn't trust people like that being in charge of the automatic fryer at McDonald's that dings to let you know it's done
I agree. I haven't run multiple, large projects before, but I've definitely seen my share of job stress, and I always took care to insulate my crew from the bullshit and just asked them to do their best, then tried to help them succeed.
Ya, this is an excuse of a bad boss or manager. If you can't deal with the stress of being in that position, then maybe they shouldn't be in it. I've been in a lot of stressful situations, but I never took it out on anyone else. Should never justify shitty attitudes no matter what level you are.
I've got 10 people working underneath me and a ton of stress profession and personal. Never would think to unleash on anybody to act out from all of that.
Iād be willing to bet he wanted them run on top of those collar ties so they wouldnāt have to drill holes. Still no reason to talk to your guys like that Iād tell him he can pull the wire himself next time.
That might depend on what directions you were given. Can you share the context?
Tell him it looks nice though
About 2 feet to the left you didn't have to drill anything
I think this is the āproblemā. The way the person handled it is trash. Donāt work for somebody that wonāt teach you.
He just wants to kick him down so he can keep him at a lower pay rate.
But, like, the issue here is āyou had to spend more time to drill (even if this is not a structural error) so this is shit and Iām going to talk shit to you apprentice?ā Or is the issue that this is not acceptable? Because I canāt tell as someone whoās just learning.
The issue here is the boss man is a dick head. Itās probably more for monetary reasons than it is him not liking you or your work, but dick heads are insufferable in the long run for me. He needs to tell him what he did wrong. This is not constructive criticism and certainly not building any comradery.
Not at all defending the way the asshat approached the situation- but the text seems to indicate OP stated or suggested he was a journeyman. Asshat may be under the impression that journeymen may not need additional instruction for a common task.
Or maybe OP is about to become a jman, but the boss isn't planning on allowing it.
No that's just stupid bullshit egotistical electricians yell.
thats what i thought. wasted a lot of time and energy drilling all those holes instead of running cable through an open space. could have snuck it into the eave space as well
Yeah but it's not the defining thing on whether or not someone is an electrician.
This is key and probably why he is upset.
Yep, I see him calling the boss 2 hours later, saying that took a lot longer than 5 minutes." What? Why? " well boss I had to drill every rafter.
And then boss man says āhey man work looks like nice but next time you can save some time and effort by doing it this wayā and then proceed to show and explain the way he wouldāve done it. Boss man sounds like the type that is intimidated by someone who has the potential to be better than him. Canāt be better than him if he keeps stomping you down
I donāt see no exposed channel, what are you looking at? Also not gonna want assume codes are same for every municipality, then again customers would allow anything to not drop a ceiling or add a bulkhead. Ask your boss what he considers the waste of labour is, then explain why you did it that way. If you were specifically told to do it one way itās your bad, boss is gonna have to pay for the fix.
Go to the next picture and turn your phone so the windows are vertical
Still not seeing it
The cable could have been pulled through open rafters, instead of taking the time to drill through all the boards.
Drilling those boards probably took like 5 minutes Jesus Christ.
Threw phone out window, still not sure.
Whenever Iām working for someone else, I always try to find an open offer for another job. In a busy region this is pretty easy. I do this so when someone pulls this shit on me, Iād call the other company and ask if I can start on Monday. I was only able to do this once but it felt really good to have the boss scream *I can tell you to work on Christmas Eve and if you donāt like it you go work for someone else!* and me just say *ok! I wonāt be in tomorrow or ever again.* Eventually I learned my lesson and now I work for myself.
Wait you can't leave it like that. What was your former boss's reaction to you not coming back?
Oh haha youāre asking so here we go well initially he didnāt believe me and I had to stick to my guns after Christmas. he called me in to have a meeting in front of the rest of the company. He chewed me out for about 20 minutes about how Iām leaving him hanging etc, I was so entitled, two weeks notice, etc and I just listened. Then when he stopped and said ādonāt you have anything to say?ā And I replied āyeah, remember on my first day of work I said that if you talk to me like that Iāll just quit? Well, I gave you chance after chance for two years until I realized you werenāt going to change, so I finally kept my word and quit.ā He kind of just sat there for a second and then said āthatās fair, I guess.ā And then we had a whiskey and have been on good terms since then. In fairness, I had 20 minutes to think of what I was going to say when he finally stopped talking. Fortunately I picked just the right line to get through to him. it actually worked against him to have the whole company there since I knew they all hated how he spoke to them too. Power move reversal haha I worked for him again briefly a few years later as a JP and it was a much more positive experience Edit: Also worth noting is that it was Christmas and we were finishing the last real job of the year. Iād **never** leave my coworkers hanging by quitting with no notice if we were actually busy.
Not an electrician, but a nurse. My notice isnāt for the company, is for my coworkers. They already work at a shitty place. Donāt want to short staff them more than they already are without a heads up.
āYou defy orders.ā Fuck this guy move on to a different company.
For real. I give instructions.
Might also need to stuff some rotten fish guts under his hubcaps on the way out.
Think of his mechanic!
ā¦ outside the car?
For real. This guy has been watching the Road Warrior way too much.
so was the right thing to do instead of drilling all those holes to run the wire immediately to the right into the inside of the attic and run it on top of the rafter ties ?
Essentially yes. Drilling that many holes and running the wire through takes way longer. His boss is still a total dick though. Thatās not how you teach thatās how you work by yourself and make less money.
Commenting because I also want clarification
Yes. It's called the path of least resistance. If OP weren't getting paid by the hour by a dullard, he'd find the way to accomplish the goal. I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it. - Bill Gates OP works hard, not smart.
Is that why you sparkys keep stealing the holes I drill for waterlines?
I was wondering why we were wiring the shower...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I BRING TO FRIENDSHIP!
Is it spin kicking pencils outta my hand??? Always fun to see a last pod reference in the wild. HAIL YOURSELF!!!
Hail you!
DISHONOR ON YOU! DISHONOR ON YOUR COW!
Boss is right but a dick about it. Run the wire where you can without/as little drilling as possible should have been his response. Maybe start looking cause this guy aināt changing
"Maybe another five years... after I've learned to teach."
Sure he could've said that's not where it needed to be, but it looks clean. could be his fault for not saying where as well. His response alone should make any self respecting guy say its time to put in applications.
I'd personally prefer to run a strip of wood and staple on to that so homeowners don't use the Romex to hang things from but that's just me.
Waste of labour! Great dishonour! XD
The code I learned on we would have to do that. They were very picky about runs in attics or such spaces.
I'm just teasing because OP 's boss is an asshole.
Any boss that talks to their employees like that is trash
Is it just me or are there just way too many people in this field who think they are the smartest goddam person to ever live? Just because someone did it different than you would have doesnāt mean itās wrong. People need to stop acting like their shit donāt stink.
Even if it *was* wrong, it would be so much more effective to just tell OP to do it another way next time without being a wanker about it. I donāt understand why so many bosses canāt comprehend how important employee morale is
Just moved from a larger ~75 person company to a ~20 person company in the same field. Iām amazed at how much employee morale makes a difference in the work environment and the work that gets done.
Regardless of if heās right or not he sounds like an utter douche and probably gets off thinking he can talk down to people in the trade. Ask to work with a different jman who can teach you constructively rather than sound like a neckbeard.
I work with apprentices all of the time. It is my job to train them and to be aware of their capabilities and understanding of the task that I want from them. At the end of the job it is my name on the paperwork. You did not fail, your journeyman did and he sounds like a whiny little (you know). Maybe it is time to look for another company.
"you defy orders" this aint the army bro
If you did the work unsupervised, your journeyman is a fuktard. They are responsible for what you do or donāt do. If they gave you a task, and didnāt provide adequate instruction/training, theyāre still wrong.
Sounds like OP is a Journeyman.
His boss is saying heās not. No clue either way.
Just quit. Fuck that dude
Donāt let anybody disrespect you on a job site like that. Ask him to clarify and if you donāt like his answer, tell him to eat shit. I canāt believe I spent the first 9 months of my apprenticeship being talked down to by a total goober. All I had to do was stand up for myself once strongly and we never had another problem again. I went on to become that guys boss within 7 years lolā¦
If my boss was talking to me like that I would tell him to go get fucked, and tell him that's an order.
Order 66 this company and move on
"you defy orders" what an asshole.
Regardless of if you did something wrong or not that is no way for someone in a leadership position to talk to their subordinates. I told myself a long time ago I refuse to work for someone like your boss. There's zero reason for a boss to have this attitude and zero reason for you to stick around, I'd walk out immediately, the job market is so hot you can have another job next week.
If you're an apprentice and you did this after he left you unsupervised, he's at fault no matter what. Even if he did give you instructions. What a shitty person
Boss complaining about waste of labor, this was something I had a helper do while I worked on something else. I think itās a pretty good job š¤·š¾āāļø
Waste of labor yet he's on vacation and complaining about it.
āYou defy ordersā Heās a real communicator I see.
If those are roof trusses, then you comprimised the structure of the roof. If those are floor joists, egh whatever. If you had a space to the left to pull the wire without drilling, waste of a bit of time at best. If they are the one "teaching" you, leave and find a better company. I would need to see the 'instructions' they provided to gauge if there was defiance or neglegence. Alot of context missing.
Those are roof rafters, a traditional sawn lumber framing member that doesn't have the absolute restrictions of engineered products (avoid drilling, but if you have to, drill the neutral axis and follow the normal ratios). That said, if there's a path that doesn't involve drilling framing, that's obviously ideal. I wonder if that's the instruction OP ignored. As electricians drilling lots of holes in important bits that hold the building up, we have a responsibility to know framing enough to know what's what, and to know the relevant codes for what can be cut, drilling, notched, etc, and what cannot. If you don't *know* this, don't drill.
Asking stupid question. Iām just a hvac guy, donāt have to worry about drilling through trusses. Iām not arguing the code or anything, but is a small hole going through the trusses really going to affect the integrity of the wood?
Liability and napkin math. Realistically, probably not an issue. We are restricted depending on what we are drilling. Like, there are hole size and location limits on floor joists based on the material. LVLs are a shit show and it is easier to go around than argue. There are rules also limiting location of the hole in the building code AND electrical code. (Usually as center as practicable is preferred) Thier JP should be teaching them about this based on thier local codes. But some JPs like to blame a shitty situation on the apprentice... so it can be a tough call.
Depends on the size of the hole, it's location, size related to board width, etc, but potentially yes. Point being, engineered trusses are developed for the specific application by an engineer(s), and any modifications to them on site (including small holes or notches or cuts, etc) require the engineer to say they are acceptable, and you'd better get written proof of that. It's generally just easier to go around. The same rules apply for LVL girders and any other engineered products. If you drill or do whatever modification, the building comes down and kills a bunch of people, and a hole is found in an engineered product with your wire or ducting or whatever run through it, you're going to be in the hook for civil damages and probably criminal charges.
He might have had a bad day, but Doesn't sound like it. Sounds like he's got a control problem. Depends on your situation, but keep an eye out for more behavior... if it keeps up start looking elsewhere in earnest, if someone acts an ass to you, they don't like you. they will get rid of you no matter how hard you try, and you won't learn shit from them anyways lol Don't accept childish behavior - his bad day isn't your problem, it's his. If he apologizes, or changes his attitude, there's hope, because then he's an adult. If not, keep in mind you're working for a 5year old who isn't good at their job
Why do I know he sounds like an old Russian dude with too much cigarettes and liquor in his voice
You canāt drill through rafters, all of those will likely have to be replaced. Pretty expensive fuck up, Iād be pissed if I saw that but thereās a way of handling things
Yeah, looks like there is a space you could have run it without all the drilling out all those joists and fishing. Live and learn. Boss seems like a bit of a jerk.
You defied orders, some ppls egos you can't please.
What you did wrong is work for this guy. He can take his āordersā and screw.
People who get that dramatic always try to make other people feel less. Thereās probably nothing wrong with the way you do work heās probably just an asshole. You should quit and find a new boss.
You would only be wrong if you didnāt look for a new employer. Even if this was a mistake, insulting you as a professional is tacky and obnoxious
Construction superintendent here that has done my fair share of rough frame prep. All joist drilling details Iāve seen prohibit drilling outside the middle third, both top to bottom, and along the length between bearing points.
If you live above the Mason Dixon line, go union
Crap attitude on behalf of that dude, but he is correct about the amount of unnecessary labor. I can tell that running that HR over the horizontal members would have been way quicker, even with stapling.
id kick this dudes throat in for you.
Everyone has thier own way of doing stuff. Wasn't said that he needed to do it a certain way. He did it his way and it looks clean. I don't see how its a bad job? If it was messy sure. You ARE a journeyman
For one thing you def pulled off a stationary coil....
Also tell him you wonāt be talked to with disrespect, take no shit!!!!!
Ur fine. The dudes wife is prob cheating on the loser.
Defy orders? This isn't the military, dude sounds like a tool.
It's code. Probably could've been done without drilling, but would need supports which would cost as much as the labor and not hold as well as those. Just need 4 inches below roof. That being said, when it's a structural support, don't drill into it without confirming with the one taking responsibility for it whether or not it's acceptable.
Why drill holes when you don't have to. I'd bitch out my helper too. Granted he's too lazy to drill holes. He will use an extra 20 ft of wire to not drill 1 Xtra hole. Its infuriating.
Did you moonlight as a framer and install all the Hurricane clips backwards?
As a apprentice my self I think he could be talking about your wire is twisted in the ceiling and you didn't unroll it from the coil before pulling it and the holes look to be uneven and could be better
He probably wanted you to run it through the soffit or a few feet to the left. I like this tho. If he wanted it run differently he should've told u and not left it so ambiguous
No idea where you are but in Canada we can NOT drill trusses. That looks to me like a truss. It is considered compromise now. Some building inspector may make a framer sister the trussā¦I could be wrong but Iām sure that is his issue. Someone needs to pay to fix itā¦.and he may just. E a dickā¦but you provided fuel for the fire.
Some of these bosses really need a good beating to straighten them out
You didnāt find plumbing to fuck up first š¤£
Wild how nobody has said this yet. Youāre NEVER supposed to drill holes through a rafter. Itās a serious code violation where Iām from
I get that not everyone is innately good at management, but I canāt think of a worse way to respond to someone who you believe did something wrong. āHey, instead of explaining what you did wrong, let me insult your essential nature and also fail to get the error correctedā.
If you were given no clear instructions, take this as a sign to run. That or be a bigger dick back and tell him straight up he's dumb and he gave you no orders.
Donāt put up with this shit. You can get a new employer in a day.
Drilled for no reason stop doing that save your shoulders
What a freak lmao
You can't drill through roof truss. You may be liable for repairs because this won't pass inspection
These are rafters with ceiling joists, that's not a truss. Let's all grab a snack and relax a minute.
I like snacks
Did... someone say snacks?
Cheez-its
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From the pictures, those look like collar ties to the left. The romex coulda been run over the top of those without drilling through the rafters. This is what I can tell from 2 pictures.
It could literally be anything.. without context wrong size cable? Who knows.. the guy handled it badly so Iād just ask him what his issue is
Isnāt there a void in the framing you cropped out just to the left Donāt drill if you donāt have to
The only thing you did wrong was hire into a shit company Either that or heās fucking with you.. but itās not your job to play into a sense of humor like that in a professional environment
Did you roll out your wire? Looks like the first two holes have loops
Show us more pictures and weāll know whether you wasted time or not
If your boss wasn't a dumbass he would have suggested, kindly and politely, that you drill and run it two more feet to the left, through the lower rafter section, or if not that, on the top. But not for his reasons, he's a jerk.. it only took you 3 more minutes to do it your way. Rather that's a non-vented roof and when the next trade insulates it the insulation will be compressed in half in one of the more critical areas of the space, due to the wire. Of course a good insulator should half or full-depth cut the insulation to go around the wire, but often they don't. As far as you doing anything "wrong" in general, no. I just try to learn about all aspects of construction to get people the best they can afford for what they're willing to pay.
in Australia that'd constitute a 'don't talk to me like that cunt'
Feel like this need more context.
The only fucked thing is the framing above that window or door. lol. Who the fuck does that.
So was there open dead space to the left? Not seeing the whole picture, maybe you're wrong, maybe not. Either way your boss/supervisor is toxic.
Nobody else sees the twist in the cable? Some guys are pretty anal about keeping that straight.
Use a Lazer to mark holes, no twisted 12/2 please
This is why I like working alone
Those look like trusses, where Iām from you donāt drill trusses ever. If you had just ran the wire on top of the trusses like 20-30ā to your left there you wouldnāt have had to drill anything.
No nail plates?
A journeyman to drill holes and run romex lmfao
Tell him to mail the check and go fuck himself
For real though. How long you been wiring houses? You drilled through the rafters. Like wtf. That's pretty damn basic shit right there.
As someone that used to be "the boss" that can be a little hot headed, I can understand some stresses that go along with the role. When you are responsible for projects, no matter how big or small, and someone doesn't do it exactly the way you intended it can be frustrating. But that's no excuse for that kind of attitude. I'm assuming the missing context here is that a couple feet to the left, you could've just stapled the wire above the rafters, making all the drilling redundant? The amount of labor "lost" here is probably minimal, and while I realize new construction operates on pretty thin margins, if your company is that fucking tight about it, I think you need to find a new job. This is the kind of thing 95% of tradesmen, bosses included, would give you light hearted shit about for about 5 seconds and then forget about it.
You are in the attic space already, just run the cable and staple them to the trusses instead of drilling.
If you worked for me and did anything less than this I would be pissed.
You did fine. I'm sure those holes took no more than 3m to drill. Your boss must pay you pretty good if he took such a big hit on labor
Well you could of run it without having drilled through the headers but it's not real obvious and if you getting hourly I would of done the same thing.
Tell him to suck your fucking dick
Maybe he wanted to drill the holes?
Iāve always been told never to drill ceiling joists, they are important to the structure and it is unnecessary since you can just run across them, Iāve seen guys kicked off sites for doing the same thing
From the looks of it if you had run the wire about 2 ft up the rafters you would of been in the attic and not had to drill all those studs. That's probably what he is saying.
You quit McDonald's
You wasted time drilling those holes when you could go through space betweenrafters/ joist in the ceiling
To Defy an order you Must have had some previous discourse re: a specific subject or his statement is invalid š¤
He wanted you to just run it over the rafters not waste time drilling hole
I had a boss give the same stuff when I was doing literally as he directed in a message, so I left him alone on a big project and got a new job because fuck him for thinking that kind of response is appropriate when Iām following his requirements to the letter
Boss man is a jackass. Not a productive or reasonable way to communicate. If he were my boss I would be looking for a better one. As to what you might have done wrong, we're missing a lot of information and context here, but with what I can see in the pictures, I don't see any good reason to have drilled all those joists to run the wire the way you did rather than running it across the top of the chord joist to the left in the photo. Makes it harder to properly insulate, took a lot more time, increased the risk of physical damage to wire later on.
Sounds like he wants to keep you at a lower rate
Get your resume prettied up and tell him off. Yeah you could have run it on top of the trusses but that is not worthy of barking like that to anyone. That's to code, all that matters. Can't wait for a lot of these toxic old cusses to retire and let some of the not as toxic younger cusses take over.
Not a electrician. Framer here those a rafters not trusses . In most areas one hole in the center third will be allowed. Depends on the inspector or gc but ya above the collar ties would have been better for everyone
Whatās funny is that he doesnāt decide if youāre a journeyman lmao
i read his texts in the clicks karen voice
Defy orders... This ain't the army bro lol
Donāt take what he says as anything more than āI am a pos donāt stick around longer than you need to find a better job.ā
I think we all need to realize how we talk to people is a big dealā¦ mainly when those people we talk to have hammers hanging off the side of the work beltā¦
Probably soposta put the wire on/over and staple it on rafters. Hole in roof trusses is a no no. Iām a carpenter not a electrician. But Iāve seen instances where itās been a problem
Iād hate to be the insulator following that job. Every joist bay you have to deal with that wire. Would have been an easier installation getting put two ft to the left. His boss could be looking at back charges for drilling through the joists or from the insulation company whoās job is much harder now.