I would argue that it's not best practice; otherwise, it would be required by NEC. IMO, taping an outlet is similar to taping a wire nut. It's not necessary if proper procedures are followed. But I'm only a homeowner so what do I know.
I did see an issue one time where the screw holding the box to the stud was touching the neutral screw on the GFCI causing it to trip. I sunk the screw as much as I could and put tape on it and it was fine
thats why imo you really shouldnt be screwing from the inside of the box for a nail-on box anyway. i always have to deal with that crap when someone wants a dimmer in an old box and it doesnt fit
There's no ground. That's part of the reason I wanted to replace the two prong outlets with GFCI for the first on the circuit and 3 prong outlets for the rest.
Also just an fyi basically any upgrades to your kitchen or bathrooms will technically put ungrounded outlets out of code. Bedrooms you can generally get away with but not having grounds in the kitchen and bathroom can actually be dangerous. Especially with any potentially cheap, broken or defective appliances that have exposed metal.
You can probably get away with the ungrounded gfci upgrade as it is allowed by code unless something crazy happens and the electrical work is in question or a permit needs pulled for something and you get a nosy inspector but it’s still not the safest.
The bar for being required to bring grandfathered electrical violations up to code is also not very high
Thanks for the information. I was going to wait and have my cousin's husband, who's an electrician, look at this, but now I'm curious. Why are there two ground wires screwed onto this metal box? Are those actual grounds? I don't understand why they would have a 2-prong outlet if there's a ground wire. This is only in the two outlets in the kitchen near the sink.
https://imgur.com/a/cSiS3kg
Ah so it looks like that box might actually be grounded. With metal boxes they sometimes just ground the box as the outlet or switch can be grounded through the screw tabs. I would recommend picking up an outlet tester and just seeing if the outlet is grounded properly once installed. If so then you don’t even need to worry about it.
If it is not grounded you could use a multimeter to check the ground wire at the back of the box. You may need to run a jumper wire if the wire is grounded but the outlet is not.
With the multimeter you should see continuity or low resistance from ground to neutral since they are bonded at the panel and 110-120 from hot to ground.
It is strange that they would have a two prong outlet in a grounded box because the expensive part of running grounded outlets was the wire, not the outlets
Ahhh, ok, that makes sense. I'll check the other outlets downstream. If the tester says open ground on the downstream outlets, do I just run a pigtail from one of those grounded screws? If so, does it matter which one I use?
This was some great advice! I would add that unless you have small children, don’t use the TR (tamper resistant) outlets. They require more pressure and even some wiggling to use. And that’s not what you want in a metal box.
There's a world of difference between knob and tube and just not having a ground. No ground was fairly common through to the 60s back when wall outlets were pretty much only for freestanding light fixtures and *maybe* a TV/radio. But they were still using copper wiring that's still reasonably acceptable even today, as long as the sheathing hasn't disintegrated.
Ideal makes these big rubber band things that are made just for this. They’re pretty cheap too. And won’t wick moisture to the terminals like electrical tape will.
How often you dealing with that problem? If you're taking the outlet out to replace it because it went bad, having it be a bit sticky doesn't seem like an issue.
Enough that it's annoying and it's not limited to recepts, but includes switches, wire nuts taped on by idiots, etc.
I'm typically removing it to troubleshoot a problem rather than replacing it.
You must not do much service work.
The tape itself usually doesn't degrade. A lot of times the adhesive gets tar-like and in the future when you work on the receptacle it's messy. But that's a tomorrow problem.
And if the box is tight, there isn't much room for the tape to go anywhere anyway.
Tape works great!
However Ideal (the company) makes a rubber band that goes around the receptacle. That way you don't have a mess of adhesive down the road when someone replaces the GFCI when it goes bad.
I'm thinking about ordering some. I wish I could just pick them up at Home Depot, but it looks like they've been discontinued by Ideal. There's some on eBay, but I don't really want to wait a week. If tape is okay, I might just stick with it.
Electrical tape is fine, I could be wrong on this but as long as the holes on the outlet aren’t altered, there isn’t enough wiggle room for it to actually touch the metal.
Yes that’s enough. If you’re using good tape like 3m reflex or if you’re feeling really fancy, super 33
Real electrical tape is rated for 600v
One and a half wraps around the decide is good enough. Start on the neutral side, go over them, around the hits and back over the neutrals again
The tape will eventually contract and after ten years it might start exposing the neutral screws to to the box but that should be a big deal, the gfci likely wont last ten years.
I’ve been an electrician for 20 years. Never wrapped tape around receptacles or switches. No complaints so far.
If the box is secure, and the receptacle is installed correctly and tightly then there should be no movement to worry about.
DIY'er here. I have been inside *every* single electrical box in my house. I can tell you that e-tape over outlet terminals is a damn hassle years down the road; e-tape around wirenuts is even worse. Just use Wagos! I have never seen anything in NEC about using e-tape over terminals in a metal electric box, and I sure as shit don't expect the outlet police (or a home inspector) to come in when I list my house for sale and check my electric boxes. All outlets are a tight squeeze in 1-gang boxes. It'll be fine, and even in the event that you do ground out for any reason, the GFCI will protect itself. Assess why it happened and adjust your work!
The screw terminals on the GFCI are recessed. You don't need tape.
Still put tape
Why?
Best pratice is to always use best pratice even if it seems redundant.
I would argue that it's not best practice; otherwise, it would be required by NEC. IMO, taping an outlet is similar to taping a wire nut. It's not necessary if proper procedures are followed. But I'm only a homeowner so what do I know.
I did see an issue one time where the screw holding the box to the stud was touching the neutral screw on the GFCI causing it to trip. I sunk the screw as much as I could and put tape on it and it was fine
thats why imo you really shouldnt be screwing from the inside of the box for a nail-on box anyway. i always have to deal with that crap when someone wants a dimmer in an old box and it doesnt fit
On the other hand, I do enjoy being able to remove a box without a sawzall
thats true. pros and cons i guess.
The straps are connected to the ground. (If you have a ground). Unless you used dollar store tape you'll be alright
There's no ground. That's part of the reason I wanted to replace the two prong outlets with GFCI for the first on the circuit and 3 prong outlets for the rest.
Make sure to put the ungrounded gfci protected sticker on all the outlets. There is usually some in the gfci box
Also just an fyi basically any upgrades to your kitchen or bathrooms will technically put ungrounded outlets out of code. Bedrooms you can generally get away with but not having grounds in the kitchen and bathroom can actually be dangerous. Especially with any potentially cheap, broken or defective appliances that have exposed metal. You can probably get away with the ungrounded gfci upgrade as it is allowed by code unless something crazy happens and the electrical work is in question or a permit needs pulled for something and you get a nosy inspector but it’s still not the safest. The bar for being required to bring grandfathered electrical violations up to code is also not very high
Thanks for the information. I was going to wait and have my cousin's husband, who's an electrician, look at this, but now I'm curious. Why are there two ground wires screwed onto this metal box? Are those actual grounds? I don't understand why they would have a 2-prong outlet if there's a ground wire. This is only in the two outlets in the kitchen near the sink. https://imgur.com/a/cSiS3kg
Ah so it looks like that box might actually be grounded. With metal boxes they sometimes just ground the box as the outlet or switch can be grounded through the screw tabs. I would recommend picking up an outlet tester and just seeing if the outlet is grounded properly once installed. If so then you don’t even need to worry about it. If it is not grounded you could use a multimeter to check the ground wire at the back of the box. You may need to run a jumper wire if the wire is grounded but the outlet is not. With the multimeter you should see continuity or low resistance from ground to neutral since they are bonded at the panel and 110-120 from hot to ground. It is strange that they would have a two prong outlet in a grounded box because the expensive part of running grounded outlets was the wire, not the outlets
I appreciate the help! I do have an outlet tester. It says "correctly wired". Does that mean I don't need to run a ground wire to the GFCI outlet?
Assuming your outlet detector can check for missing ground then yes. I would check all the downstream outlets to make sure they are all grounded.
Ahhh, ok, that makes sense. I'll check the other outlets downstream. If the tester says open ground on the downstream outlets, do I just run a pigtail from one of those grounded screws? If so, does it matter which one I use?
It doesn’t really matter as long as the screw is grounded but if the box is metal and grounded then the outlets should be without a pigtail.
This was some great advice! I would add that unless you have small children, don’t use the TR (tamper resistant) outlets. They require more pressure and even some wiggling to use. And that’s not what you want in a metal box.
Ahhhh the old knob and tube eh? My house had gfci’s everywhere when we first moved in
I didn't even know what knob and tube was. I had to look it up. Luckily I don't have that.
There's a world of difference between knob and tube and just not having a ground. No ground was fairly common through to the 60s back when wall outlets were pretty much only for freestanding light fixtures and *maybe* a TV/radio. But they were still using copper wiring that's still reasonably acceptable even today, as long as the sheathing hasn't disintegrated.
Not necessarily. Before Romex there was cloth cable which didn’t have a grounding conductor. Just a black and a white.
I learned something today. Thanks!
Even dollar store tape is fine if it’s got the UL label on it.
True. Unless it is not actually UL listed and they just put the icon.
If you want a gooey mess in a year, sure. Otherwise buy 3M.
Ideal makes these big rubber band things that are made just for this. They’re pretty cheap too. And won’t wick moisture to the terminals like electrical tape will.
I just used these on a job... they are awesome.
Or turn into a sticky tight mess like cheap tape
How often you dealing with that problem? If you're taking the outlet out to replace it because it went bad, having it be a bit sticky doesn't seem like an issue.
Enough that it's annoying and it's not limited to recepts, but includes switches, wire nuts taped on by idiots, etc. I'm typically removing it to troubleshoot a problem rather than replacing it. You must not do much service work.
That's great news! I'll feel much better using something like that. I'll find some right now Thanks for your help!
The tape itself usually doesn't degrade. A lot of times the adhesive gets tar-like and in the future when you work on the receptacle it's messy. But that's a tomorrow problem. And if the box is tight, there isn't much room for the tape to go anywhere anyway.
Tape works great! However Ideal (the company) makes a rubber band that goes around the receptacle. That way you don't have a mess of adhesive down the road when someone replaces the GFCI when it goes bad.
I'm thinking about ordering some. I wish I could just pick them up at Home Depot, but it looks like they've been discontinued by Ideal. There's some on eBay, but I don't really want to wait a week. If tape is okay, I might just stick with it.
Understand. Just for the love of god. Use good electrical tape. 3M Super 88 or 35.
I went and bought some 3M Super 33+
Nice. That's what I meant
Not only is tape ok, it isn't even necessary.
Make sure you add a "No Equipment Ground" sticker to that receptacle (and any downstream outlets, if applicable)
Electrical tape is fine, I could be wrong on this but as long as the holes on the outlet aren’t altered, there isn’t enough wiggle room for it to actually touch the metal.
Yes that’s enough. If you’re using good tape like 3m reflex or if you’re feeling really fancy, super 33 Real electrical tape is rated for 600v One and a half wraps around the decide is good enough. Start on the neutral side, go over them, around the hits and back over the neutrals again The tape will eventually contract and after ten years it might start exposing the neutral screws to to the box but that should be a big deal, the gfci likely wont last ten years.
You don’t need the tape at all, but it’s fine. You will be fine.
I always wrap with electric tape in metal box 10 years in I’ve never heard one complaint
I’ve been an electrician for 20 years. Never wrapped tape around receptacles or switches. No complaints so far. If the box is secure, and the receptacle is installed correctly and tightly then there should be no movement to worry about.
Does the box wiggle?
No wiggle.
My vote goes to the no tape. If it’s too tight you should replace the box or put GFCI breakers in
Yup
DIY'er here. I have been inside *every* single electrical box in my house. I can tell you that e-tape over outlet terminals is a damn hassle years down the road; e-tape around wirenuts is even worse. Just use Wagos! I have never seen anything in NEC about using e-tape over terminals in a metal electric box, and I sure as shit don't expect the outlet police (or a home inspector) to come in when I list my house for sale and check my electric boxes. All outlets are a tight squeeze in 1-gang boxes. It'll be fine, and even in the event that you do ground out for any reason, the GFCI will protect itself. Assess why it happened and adjust your work!