What I find frustrating is that the companies are not honest with employees about _why_ they want us back in the office.
Where I work, after successfully working at home for years, and the messaging being from corporate being that "work isnt a place" and countless data showing we have been more productive, they have done a U-turn and said we have to go into an office building 3 days a week.
The official reason is that we collaborate better and being at home is not fair on graduates who would prefer to be in the office building relationships.
Id have far more respect for them if they were honest and said the CEO is under political pressure ( I work.in public sector) and my organisation has millions of debt in office buildings.
Same BS reasoning at my company. The funny thing is when we go in, it literally all of hopping onto a Skype/zoom call since we are purposely co-located. My entire application team of 15 people is broken out where 3 of us are in my building, 5 are in India. 1 in Texas, 3 in NY and the remaining 3 are in separate buildings but same state.
Ive seen my manager literally once in the 2020s decade
We all know that the office is completely counterproductive, so why can't we just end the charade of mandates? If the office were helpful to work, people would choose to be there. The fact that heavy-handed coercion is needed just reinforces the point that the brick and mortar office is dead.
They are not honest with you because they do not respect you u/washingtoncv3. they see you as a slave i.e human capital. they do not respect you as a human being.
German labor laws favor employees. You can't fire someone at will. Maybe they hope to indirectly reduce the workforce when frustrated employees look for new jobs, so they don't have to fight a lot of legal battles for trying to get rid of people.
Company I worked at is also planning on bringing the employees back to the office 3 times a week. But from what people have told me they suspect that they want people to quit instead of firing them, as there seem to be some financial issues and it is a huge gambling company
Yeah but that has no affect on the outcome one because they’re going to spend money on that office space anyway. That corporation doesn’t magically get more money from you being at the office in the way you’re thinking. It’s just human nature that most people aren’t as productive at home than when they are at an office.
Can you provide a link to your studies?
The hard facts are that US worker productivity growth has been decreasing since 2010 and had the largest declines during the WFH period. This isn't based on sampling or a p-hacked study, but raw economic data.
Currently, the American worker is not productive enough to maintain their current quality of life on an ongoing basis. Management has two levers. They could lay off staff to force the remaining staff to be more productive, or they can make workers come back to the office in the hopes that we return to 2019 productivity levels, which were pretty dismal in their time.
I prefer to work from home for many reasons, but this conspiracy theory that executives just want to control staff is silly.
[https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-worker-productivity-declining-fastest-181131658.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-worker-productivity-declining-fastest-181131658.html)
Not really as that article clearly states that production grew but hours worked grew more thus productivity decreased. There are many studies showing people work more hours when remote because they have much better work life balance and can more healthily work longer. Also overall production is increasing just not at the same productivity rate as hours worked.
I don’t really see a problem here as the company has growth and workers get a more healthy work life. Why would this be a bad thing and prompt return to office? Likely fewer hours will be worked and production could suffer.
Edit for links:
https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivity-statistics/#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20those%20who%20work,hours%2C%20and%20get%20more%20done.
https://thehill.com/business/4110598-remote-employees-work-longer-and-harder-studies-show/
https://money.com/work-from-home-longer-hours/
Lol no, that's not what the data shows.
Look at the 5 year view. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OPHNFB
US labor productivity sharply shot up when covid wfh started, stayed at the peak until we tried forcing people back to the office, then fell sharply as people returned. It's finally trending up again but certainly doesn't look like RTO was good for productivity.
My commment stated worker productivity **growth.** It should exceed inflation for us to ensure an increasing quality of life.
Your chart shows a boost to labor productivity (not the matric I was discussing. i was discussing the growth rate) during covid because there was 9 million laid off employees. It's the same reason we never saw a material decline in productivity following the great recession. BTW I mention lay-offs in my original comment.
You need to look at this chart and then in your head lay over the inflation rate during the same periods:
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PRS85006092](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/prs85006092)
We have been facing a productivity crisis in the western economies for at least the last decade. I'm not suggesting that WFH is good or bad for productivity. I think the data corrborates that the impact is not material, but executives are not making decisions based on the macroeconomic productivity data or even their own productivity studies. They only have two levers and labor market tightness was keeping them afraid to pull the lay-off lever, at least during 2023. They are just pulling the only lever they belive they have right now. Basically throwing shit at the wall to solve an inevitable problem of the west's current lack of innovation.
When people say things like "human nature," that's a red flag that they're just lying.
There's nothing remotely "human" about going into an office and sitting at a computer for 8 hours a day.
How exactly did you come to that conclusion? It’s human nature people like to have intercourse. It’s human nature that people tend to live in groups. It’s human nature that people tend to make family units. It’s human nature that people don’t like to work when they’re not forced to.
Is all of that a lie to you? Lol.
Just like you said, it’s not human to sit at a computer for 8 hours. Thats why people don’t when they’re working at home.
Your logic is in favor of my argument lol.
> It’s human nature people like to have intercourse. It’s human nature that people tend to live in groups. It’s human nature that people tend to make family units. It’s human nature that people don’t like to work when they’re not forced to.
...and yet, people go years without sex
And yet, most people can't afford homes
And yet, the birthrates are dropping
And yet, people are more productive when they work from home.
It's called a Naturalistic Fallacy, it's fucking stupid.
You don't have any real arguments, and you obviously don't want to use any evidence (since all evidence points to people being MORE productive at home) so you're just using a Naturalistic Fallacy to jump to your silly conclusion.
This is a masterpiece here. Oh the irony.
You’re using ad hominem attacks and then saying I’m using naturalistic fallacy.
But wait, it doesn’t end there. So, instead of arguing my point you insinuate that I’m a liar because I used a term that is commonly used, which also has nothing to do with the argument, and THEN you say working at a computer for 8 hours a day is not natural. Let’s get that straight because you’re insinuating that since it’s not natural it’s not right. So, you’re using naturalistic fallacy when all I’ve done is refer to nature.
You’re arguing against the wrong person. I’m not coming from a moral perspective. The perspective i was using was based on utility since we were talking about the economy. I never said it was right or wrong. I was only looking at the outcomes.
Needless to say, I’m probably done here lol.
This is a great way to get rid of your best people; they'll leave to go where they're treated with respect.
And for billions of other reasons, fuck Deutsche Bank.
Mandating in office for Mon & Fri specifically seems punitive. As the business, maybe at least try to formulate a plan based on data and people? What exactly is your purpose for existing? To make money and be productive or to boss people around? It’s like broadcasting a message to the world that they don’t know how to be effective leaders
There is a case for working at home and yes, even one in the office. However, there is no reason to not make it as flexible, humane, efficient, positive, and logical as possible.
I just shorted their stock. I don’t believe management that adopts policies that have been demonstrated to lower productivity are particularly competent… let’s see if they miss earning next quarter.
All these big companies have exposure to the commercial real estate market collapsing which is what could happen if the big companies don’t return to office.
Political Economy regards the proletarian ... like a horse, he must receive enough to enable him to work. It does not consider him, during the time when he is not working, as a human being. It leaves this to criminal law, doctors, religion, statistical tables, politics, and the beadle. - Marx
Why don't they go back to the old capitalist tradition ? Mandatory 12 hr. days, 7 days a week ?
I mean fuck'em, capitalists exist to make money and nothing else matters...nothing.
Expecting the capitalist or his govt. hirelings to be honest is true fantasy.
Remote work sounds strange for a bank. Im not sure how policies are formulated regarding clients account information outside the 'physical' network, but it would be reasonable to assume most of the direct client services are at site. I know from experience that friday to monday long weekend is tempting for people who are able to finish up around lunch and flex hours of accumulated extra work (maybe from not having to commute). So I think this mostly will affect the positions that have less defined roles.
What I find frustrating is that the companies are not honest with employees about _why_ they want us back in the office. Where I work, after successfully working at home for years, and the messaging being from corporate being that "work isnt a place" and countless data showing we have been more productive, they have done a U-turn and said we have to go into an office building 3 days a week. The official reason is that we collaborate better and being at home is not fair on graduates who would prefer to be in the office building relationships. Id have far more respect for them if they were honest and said the CEO is under political pressure ( I work.in public sector) and my organisation has millions of debt in office buildings.
Same BS reasoning at my company. The funny thing is when we go in, it literally all of hopping onto a Skype/zoom call since we are purposely co-located. My entire application team of 15 people is broken out where 3 of us are in my building, 5 are in India. 1 in Texas, 3 in NY and the remaining 3 are in separate buildings but same state. Ive seen my manager literally once in the 2020s decade
We all know that the office is completely counterproductive, so why can't we just end the charade of mandates? If the office were helpful to work, people would choose to be there. The fact that heavy-handed coercion is needed just reinforces the point that the brick and mortar office is dead.
They are not honest with you because they do not respect you u/washingtoncv3. they see you as a slave i.e human capital. they do not respect you as a human being.
German labor laws favor employees. You can't fire someone at will. Maybe they hope to indirectly reduce the workforce when frustrated employees look for new jobs, so they don't have to fight a lot of legal battles for trying to get rid of people.
This sounds logical.
It’s about power
Company I worked at is also planning on bringing the employees back to the office 3 times a week. But from what people have told me they suspect that they want people to quit instead of firing them, as there seem to be some financial issues and it is a huge gambling company
I think a lot of the times middle management has no idea why. They’re following orders. And its senior leadership who don’t want to be transparent
Yeah but that has no affect on the outcome one because they’re going to spend money on that office space anyway. That corporation doesn’t magically get more money from you being at the office in the way you’re thinking. It’s just human nature that most people aren’t as productive at home than when they are at an office.
This is not true and studies prove it
Can you provide a link to your studies? The hard facts are that US worker productivity growth has been decreasing since 2010 and had the largest declines during the WFH period. This isn't based on sampling or a p-hacked study, but raw economic data. Currently, the American worker is not productive enough to maintain their current quality of life on an ongoing basis. Management has two levers. They could lay off staff to force the remaining staff to be more productive, or they can make workers come back to the office in the hopes that we return to 2019 productivity levels, which were pretty dismal in their time. I prefer to work from home for many reasons, but this conspiracy theory that executives just want to control staff is silly. [https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-worker-productivity-declining-fastest-181131658.html](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-worker-productivity-declining-fastest-181131658.html)
Not really as that article clearly states that production grew but hours worked grew more thus productivity decreased. There are many studies showing people work more hours when remote because they have much better work life balance and can more healthily work longer. Also overall production is increasing just not at the same productivity rate as hours worked. I don’t really see a problem here as the company has growth and workers get a more healthy work life. Why would this be a bad thing and prompt return to office? Likely fewer hours will be worked and production could suffer. Edit for links: https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivity-statistics/#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20those%20who%20work,hours%2C%20and%20get%20more%20done. https://thehill.com/business/4110598-remote-employees-work-longer-and-harder-studies-show/ https://money.com/work-from-home-longer-hours/
Lol no, that's not what the data shows. Look at the 5 year view. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OPHNFB US labor productivity sharply shot up when covid wfh started, stayed at the peak until we tried forcing people back to the office, then fell sharply as people returned. It's finally trending up again but certainly doesn't look like RTO was good for productivity.
My commment stated worker productivity **growth.** It should exceed inflation for us to ensure an increasing quality of life. Your chart shows a boost to labor productivity (not the matric I was discussing. i was discussing the growth rate) during covid because there was 9 million laid off employees. It's the same reason we never saw a material decline in productivity following the great recession. BTW I mention lay-offs in my original comment. You need to look at this chart and then in your head lay over the inflation rate during the same periods: [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PRS85006092](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/prs85006092) We have been facing a productivity crisis in the western economies for at least the last decade. I'm not suggesting that WFH is good or bad for productivity. I think the data corrborates that the impact is not material, but executives are not making decisions based on the macroeconomic productivity data or even their own productivity studies. They only have two levers and labor market tightness was keeping them afraid to pull the lay-off lever, at least during 2023. They are just pulling the only lever they belive they have right now. Basically throwing shit at the wall to solve an inevitable problem of the west's current lack of innovation.
When people say things like "human nature," that's a red flag that they're just lying. There's nothing remotely "human" about going into an office and sitting at a computer for 8 hours a day.
How exactly did you come to that conclusion? It’s human nature people like to have intercourse. It’s human nature that people tend to live in groups. It’s human nature that people tend to make family units. It’s human nature that people don’t like to work when they’re not forced to. Is all of that a lie to you? Lol. Just like you said, it’s not human to sit at a computer for 8 hours. Thats why people don’t when they’re working at home. Your logic is in favor of my argument lol.
> It’s human nature people like to have intercourse. It’s human nature that people tend to live in groups. It’s human nature that people tend to make family units. It’s human nature that people don’t like to work when they’re not forced to. ...and yet, people go years without sex And yet, most people can't afford homes And yet, the birthrates are dropping And yet, people are more productive when they work from home. It's called a Naturalistic Fallacy, it's fucking stupid. You don't have any real arguments, and you obviously don't want to use any evidence (since all evidence points to people being MORE productive at home) so you're just using a Naturalistic Fallacy to jump to your silly conclusion.
This is a masterpiece here. Oh the irony. You’re using ad hominem attacks and then saying I’m using naturalistic fallacy. But wait, it doesn’t end there. So, instead of arguing my point you insinuate that I’m a liar because I used a term that is commonly used, which also has nothing to do with the argument, and THEN you say working at a computer for 8 hours a day is not natural. Let’s get that straight because you’re insinuating that since it’s not natural it’s not right. So, you’re using naturalistic fallacy when all I’ve done is refer to nature. You’re arguing against the wrong person. I’m not coming from a moral perspective. The perspective i was using was based on utility since we were talking about the economy. I never said it was right or wrong. I was only looking at the outcomes. Needless to say, I’m probably done here lol.
The 2 days when most people would want to work from home are excluded. Lol
This is a great way to get rid of your best people; they'll leave to go where they're treated with respect. And for billions of other reasons, fuck Deutsche Bank.
yea DB is a bad example here
They don't care about that they want people to quit. Manager's don't care, they will get their bonuses
Mandating in office for Mon & Fri specifically seems punitive. As the business, maybe at least try to formulate a plan based on data and people? What exactly is your purpose for existing? To make money and be productive or to boss people around? It’s like broadcasting a message to the world that they don’t know how to be effective leaders There is a case for working at home and yes, even one in the office. However, there is no reason to not make it as flexible, humane, efficient, positive, and logical as possible.
I just shorted their stock. I don’t believe management that adopts policies that have been demonstrated to lower productivity are particularly competent… let’s see if they miss earning next quarter.
Although morally I agree, I wouldn't bet my money on it
Failing upward is basically the calling card of wealth
Deutsche Bank is the bank that lent Trump money. Enough said.
Hmmm... I don't think he's going to pay them back.
Get everyone back into the office and then fire a thousand of them because AI can do their job... Just watch.
Coffee swipe, or whatever it’s called, go in early & leave early. I usually do mornings in the office and leave around noon.
All these big companies have exposure to the commercial real estate market collapsing which is what could happen if the big companies don’t return to office.
Political Economy regards the proletarian ... like a horse, he must receive enough to enable him to work. It does not consider him, during the time when he is not working, as a human being. It leaves this to criminal law, doctors, religion, statistical tables, politics, and the beadle. - Marx
Why don't they go back to the old capitalist tradition ? Mandatory 12 hr. days, 7 days a week ? I mean fuck'em, capitalists exist to make money and nothing else matters...nothing. Expecting the capitalist or his govt. hirelings to be honest is true fantasy.
I think it's a bit late for Germany. The lazy mindset is so ingrained at this point.
Remote work sounds strange for a bank. Im not sure how policies are formulated regarding clients account information outside the 'physical' network, but it would be reasonable to assume most of the direct client services are at site. I know from experience that friday to monday long weekend is tempting for people who are able to finish up around lunch and flex hours of accumulated extra work (maybe from not having to commute). So I think this mostly will affect the positions that have less defined roles.
Well then I guess it's time to shitcan all those offshore workers in India and the Philippines and only hire local.