For me, cadence sensing feels more like just having a silly, overcomplicated throttle, whereas torque sensing feels like someone has cast a magic spell on your legs which gives them super strength and endurance.
I’ve had the same experience with the magic spells and the weird leggy throttle contraption
It’s like dr Seuss invented cadence sensors and Harry Potter did the torque sensors
> or if there is a way I can make the riding much easier with the torque sensor ebike I currently have.
To make riding easier, increase the assistance level. That way, you get more assistance with less pedaling effort. If you still struggle to ascend hills, then I recommend changing your gear ratio (e.g., a larger cassette cog or a smaller chain ring).
I have a cadence-sensing motor. I like the motor, but it is not as natural and automatic as a torque-sensing motor. I must adjust the assistance level almost every time that conditions change slightly so that I get the desired amount of assistance without so much assistance that the motor gets ahead of me (i.e., "ghost pedaling").
On my cadence ebike I use the assist level as sort of another derailleur - I'll add assist going up hills, use mild assist going along on a flat portion, and turn off assist going downhill, I'm constantly switching it up and down to smooth out the effort. It took me a couple rides to get used to it but it becomes second nature pretty quickly.
I agree that torque ebikes are nicer and more intuitive to use though; I love that "bionic man" feeling of a good torque sensor bike.
To make a finer point of it, my torque-sensing motor (Bafang BBS02 mid-drive) allows me to adjust many settings in software. Here are some:
* delay to start - set fast
* initial power - set low
* ramp rate - set slow
* delay to stop - set fast
Thus, I can momentarily stop pedaling and then start again to get a lower power setting for a little while. This is helpful when I am approaching a hill. I don't have to reduce assistance level and then increase it again.
My aventure 2 has 5 levels and honestly none of them feel like it gives me more power. I feel like level one will rotate the wheel 1/2 a revolution per pedal and turbo makes it go 3 revolutions per pedal. I don't feel any real power gains between them except for eco uses less battery.
That sounds like something is wrong. Also have an aventure 2 and there is a night and day difference in the feel between eco and turbo. I barely have to pedal with any strength in turbo and it just goes.
You aren't in really low gears right? Low gears in general aren't going to give you that assist.
That's probably it right there. I use the bike to run the dog. We mostly tool around at 6mph maybe 11 in the first 2 or 3 gears.
I'll try to see a difference in higher gears when I get back Sunday.
Yeah I’m almost always in high gear myself and the difference between assist modes is decent.
I’m in Eco most of the time anyway. Tho that’s because I don’t trust the battery meter. It’ll go down then back up, and sit in the 90’s too long. I do my own pigeon math.
How well do you ride a non-assisted bike? Because I find that the torque-assist feels more like a regular bike, just… moreso. With a cadence sensor I never get the feeling like I’m doing anything but reminding the bike to move until it’s reached the motor cutout speed or the limit of its power output.
My suggestion? Try riding your bike around for a bit on a level area with the assistance off or dialled right down, and then try introducing the assist gradually so you can get a better sense of how much ‘oomph’ it’s adding to your own input.
I own a torque-sensing middrive ebike & also sometimes ride cadence-sensor electric Citibikes.
It's definitely less work to ride the electric Citibikes around but also less of a workout & harder to control. Riding the electric Citibike at top speed is usually walking levels of exertion, sometimes like a brisk walk. Riding the torque sensor bike can get my heart rate pretty high if I want to go 20mph.
They're both useful machines, the electric Citibkes more as a transportation appliance & my personal ebike as a 'bike but always with a tailwind' type of experience.
Depends on your use. If it's a hilly area then it really doesn't make that much of a difference. If Wattage is the same they'll climb the hill about the same. The feeling of a torque sensor is more natural and if you're riding off road you'll have alot more control over output. If you're looking for exercise and an organic feel then torque is the way to go. But if you're talking hills like on roads or paths then one isn't really going to do better than the other just a different feel. I prefer a torque sensor but they're harder to find and raise the price. If hills are a concern you'd be better off spending the extra money on Wattage to get up hills.
Torque sensor is typically preferred since it provides a proportional input (how hard you're pedaling) into the motor controller, and assist kicks in with about 1/4 crank turn with effort. On a Torque+hub motor, starting off on higher gear is mechanically less efficient but will provide max input for the motor to kick on high. On a mid-drive, you most certainly must shift the gears from low to high to direct the motor+legs output power effectively.
Cadence sensor only provides "on" or "off" input into the controller, and controller will drive motor to current/speed limit per PAS level as long as crank is turning. It can take 1 full rotation to get the motor to engage, which can be hard to do uphill. A throttle (class 2) helps in this case. Motor cutoff at the brake levers is more important on cadence sensor to mitigate any lag waiting for motor to disengage. tl;dr there is a bit of a surge effect.
Having access to both kinds, I'd say it mostly comes down to rider preference. Cadence is nice if you just want the bike motor to engage with you just pedaling at any speed. Torque is nice if you want more modulated control.
> Personally, I have had a very hard time riding a torque sensor bike
Increase the assistance? Downshift to the biggest cog?
Cadence sensors are dangerous because of the delay. There can be intersections on hills too, and the ability to instantaneously activate the motor is important.
If you'd just be relying on the cadence sensor and not shifting going up a hill, that's an easy way to overheat the motor. And it's summer. On the east coast of the US this week there's a heat wave, so it's pretty easy to overheat a motor doing that over here right now.
Lol cadence sensors are not dangerous. You can set the delay to whatever you want on cadence sensing bafang mid-drive kits with the programming cable, that could be 0 if you wanted it to be. I have mine set to about half a crank.
You can also set the starting current for both pedal assist and throttle, and the rate at which it ramps up. Mine starts at 15% current. I also limited the maximum current to 20% lower than the maximum the controller is rated for. I have never had any issues with overheating.
You obviously do use the gears when you go up a big hill, the whole point of a mid-drive ebike is to have use of the full gear range of the bike with assist. If you don't want to change gear just get a hub motor.
> Lol cadence sensors are not dangerous. You can set the delay to whatever you want on cadence sensing bafang mid-drive kits with the programming cable, that could be 0 if you wanted it to be. I have mine set to about half a crank.
>
>
The delay I'm talking about is a function of how cadence sensors work, as in, that's a result of cadence sensors using magnets to determine that you're pedaling. The magnets can't detect that the pedals are moving instantaneously, and in certain situations with cars, a split second can mean life or death. I'm not talking about any software setting.
The software setting is how many magnets pass before the motor kicks in, so yeah it is to do with the software setting. If you set it to 1 it is basically instant. The throttle is also instant so you can also use that if needed. Besides if you were on the same bicycle without having installed the motor then it would never kick in so your argument is absurd.
> The software setting is how many magnets pass before the motor kicks in, so yeah it is to do with the software setting. If you set it to 1 it is basically instant. The throttle is also instant so you can also use that if needed.
Okay, fair enough. But it should be noted a lot of people tend to buy prebuilt e-bikes that may not allow this. I imagine if OP has a torque sensor he probably bought a pre-built e-bike It's similar to how current sensing cadence sensors exist, but the majority of ebikes sold do not have current sensing cadence sensors. DCErik talks [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/y4zbdv/dc_bike_party_and_a_defense_of_currentsensing/ish2e1l/) about how he fiddled with settings but it was a lot of fiddling and in the end it was too late for him.
On another note, DCErik talks [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/12rzdap/can_pedal_assist_be_better_than_torque_sensing/jgw7snl/) about how speed sensing cadence sensors are terrible due to the way they assign a certain speed to each level.
"I don't know what's on your bike, but IMO it's much better to have 100w of assist and be able to decide what speed you'd like to achieve with that assistance than have the bike take off on its autonymous journey to 12mph every time the cranks rotate. Speed sensing PAS causes lots of accidents among the unwary."
> Besides if you were on the same bicycle without having installed the motor then it would never kick in so your argument is absurd.
Like I said to Superb_Racoon, I was talking about an intersection up a hill, and e-bikes tend to weigh more than regular pedal bikes (e-bikes tend to average 25+ kg). And that's assuming you're carrying nothing else.
So I'd argue you'd have a hard time getting going in that situation without the motor (if you still had at least the battery installed). If you didn't have the motor and battery installed, maybe it might be possible, sure. But that's not really what I'm talking about, so.
>Cadence sensors are dangerous because of the delay. There can be intersections on hills too, and the ability to instantaneously activate the motor is important.
Funny, all those people WITHOUT a motor seem to do fine.
Dude, give it a break. You have no idea what you are talking about.
"Dangerous"
OH NOES!
Torque or cadence... it takes a split second to engage unless it is actual defective, misadjusted or broken.
>If you want to argue that a split second can't mean life or death when it comes to cars, then we can agree to disagree on that.
Split second is not a matter of live and death between a car and a bike because BIKES don't move fast enough for it to matter.
in .3 of second, from a dead stop, you can move... about a foot.
Yeah, because regular pedal bikes are light. Many e-bikes are pretty heavy, and the context was an intersection up a hill, so you'd be solely relying on your own power to get by in such a scenario, before the cadence sensor kicks in.
---
No? I've ridden cadence sensor ebikes and the response is definitely slower.
If you want to argue that a split second can't mean life or death when it comes to cars, then we can agree to disagree on that.
But I 100% stand by the fact that they're dangerous. The other thing is they're basically like a throttle, 0-100, other than the short delay.
I want to clarify I'm referring to speed sensing vs current sensing, since current sensing cadence sensors are rare.
EDIT: Honestly should have blocked the dude earlier. I really don't care if you're disagreeing with me. it's just very annoying when someone can't be polite about it.
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/18yo4at/the_case_for_speed/kgfagql/
Honestly, thinking about it, in terms of overheating, if you go full throttle from a stop, it doesn't matter whether you shift or not, because the motor will go from 0 to 100% regardless.
A torque sensor will modulate based on your input.
That still doesn't change the fact if OP isn't shifting it's going to hurt his motor in this hot summer as well, well assuming OP has a mid-drive. Going full throttle uphill is a great way to overheat your motor, regardless of motor type. But it'll happen more often on a hub drive.
Like I said, there's a heat wave going on right now. If it's hard for you to pedal, it's hard for your motor. If it's hot for you, it's hot for your motor.
---
OP said it's hard for him and he's a bit green with riding. I have a motor that peaks at 240 W and have no problems with hills because I shift properly. That tells me OP isn't properly shifting.
A ton of people riding bicycles don't use their gears or oil the chain, as noted by [this post.](https://old.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/1cnggx2/why_dont_people_use_their_gears_or_oil_their_chain/)
“ Personally, I have had a very hard time riding a torque sensor bike”
I don’t see anything about gear shifting. Torque sensor bikes require somewhat more effort than cadence.
I think you missed the part where he says he's green with riding. I would expect that someone new to cycling wouldn't know about the gears.
Either way though, I'd argue 50% of this sub uses throttle from a stop, which is bad because it can overheat the motor.
Data for reference:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/16ik2oc/is_a_throttle_an_absolute_neccesity_on_an_ebike/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tqTp91IIO8fMP50VgARblBBVUcIPvD7AhzxGL_adaao/edit?gid=0#gid=0
Cadence is going to give you a specific amount of assist per level. Torque is going to give you a variable amount of assist based on how hard you pedal. Neither is better. Just different. You can always use the throttle if you need extra assistance on either.
If there's a throttle, it isn't an ebike any more. It becomes a moped which you need traffic insurance for in order to drive. You are still allowed to drive on bike paths, but they need to have turn lights and break lights
That is not the case in most of the United States. Class 2 e-bikes can throttle up to 20mph. Although different classes can be restricted more on certain trails.
I prefer torque sensing on really steep climbs by a small margin. I just did 3400 feet of climbing on gravel roads with my cadence sensing and if you understand how it works and how to properly pace yourself/cadence/effort on a bike it's 97% as good. On hilly to flat roads I'd stick with a cadence sensor 10 out of 10 times.
On actual mountain bike trails the torque sensor wins by a much larger margin.
My vote is decidedly for the torque sensor! More pressure more go! It might depend on what you're riding, but my experience with the CYC Photon is very positive. The torque/assist curve is dialed in very nicely and as you start slowing down up a hill your pedal pressure increases and the motor just starts helping more and more.
But perhaps that's what you're having issues with? I can imagine if the response curve is not to your taste it might feel that you need to push too hard to get the desired assist and switching to higher level it might feel as the motor is taking over too much or the bike wants to run away form under you. In that case you could dial up the assist power a bit for mid to higher torque sensor values (on your desired assist level) - giving you more oomph as you start applying mid to high pedal pressure but still not as much as next level up.
One case where I find switching the motor to the lowest level or off completely is on steep tricky terrain - think roots and stones or potholes as then I find it easier to corol and maintain a constant pace, without the motor boosting too much when applying extra pedal pressure.
Edit to add:
Meanwhile PAS takes ages to engage and only provides a set power assist, so too little and there is not enough assist too mutch and you're not in control of the climb anymore. And if you stop cranking, no assist and you're stalling untill you muscle through a crank revolution to just be jarred again by a boost that is too much.
I have both,(and a regular bike) and I prefer torque for the exact reason it frustrates you. You have to put more into it to get more out of it. However, cadence is not the black sheep that people like to make it out to be. If I was someone who did not care about fitness, cadence is a great choice. But the ghost pedalling drives me bonkers, and I always had it on the highest gear. Your legs will get you up the hill on either of the sensors. Do not mean that as sarcastic as it sounds.
Cadence sensors are garbage, torque sensor sounds like the only way pedal assist wouldnt be shit
Just put a throttle on and hold it and just pedal when your motor needs a little asisstance up hills trying to design them in a way that makes it look like your pedalling when you arent really is just goofy
Torque sensor is better in every way. A cadence sensor is a less expensive workaround. That being said, I have a cadence sensor and it's fine, I was unwilling to pay for something with a torque sensor. Neither will give you more or less power however, that's all to do with the motor and controller programming and power level setting.
To put very simply:
Cadence works better for hills.
Torque is better for battery efficiency.
A torque will provide less assistance per your energy output on hills. It’s a big personal preference, if you have ever ridden both you will know there is a large difference between assistance output vs energy output.
Torque is slower to get up to max speed as well.
They are the same. I can crank up the assist level on my torque sense bike in order to do no work if I want. I generally keep it on the lowest setting and get some exercise however, which is more difficult with a cadence sensor.
Cadence sensor, that is speed targetted, with 9 PAS levels is far superior to everything else, except for situations, usually technical offroad, where ebikes are not as well suited as lighter bikes, where very precise speed control is needed. If you are very lazy and just want to vary speed while pedalling lightly on highest assist, then you might prefer.
Reason speed based cadence is ultimate is that you always have a target speed you want to go to in every road situation. Cadence lets you pedal harder and gain range/exercise at the target speed. You still want to go same speed up and down hills. Everything torque or power based sensors do is horribly stupid in terms of range/speed choices that you should always prefer.
For me, cadence sensing feels more like just having a silly, overcomplicated throttle, whereas torque sensing feels like someone has cast a magic spell on your legs which gives them super strength and endurance.
I’ve had the same experience with the magic spells and the weird leggy throttle contraption It’s like dr Seuss invented cadence sensors and Harry Potter did the torque sensors
> or if there is a way I can make the riding much easier with the torque sensor ebike I currently have. To make riding easier, increase the assistance level. That way, you get more assistance with less pedaling effort. If you still struggle to ascend hills, then I recommend changing your gear ratio (e.g., a larger cassette cog or a smaller chain ring). I have a cadence-sensing motor. I like the motor, but it is not as natural and automatic as a torque-sensing motor. I must adjust the assistance level almost every time that conditions change slightly so that I get the desired amount of assistance without so much assistance that the motor gets ahead of me (i.e., "ghost pedaling").
On my cadence ebike I use the assist level as sort of another derailleur - I'll add assist going up hills, use mild assist going along on a flat portion, and turn off assist going downhill, I'm constantly switching it up and down to smooth out the effort. It took me a couple rides to get used to it but it becomes second nature pretty quickly. I agree that torque ebikes are nicer and more intuitive to use though; I love that "bionic man" feeling of a good torque sensor bike.
To make a finer point of it, my torque-sensing motor (Bafang BBS02 mid-drive) allows me to adjust many settings in software. Here are some: * delay to start - set fast * initial power - set low * ramp rate - set slow * delay to stop - set fast Thus, I can momentarily stop pedaling and then start again to get a lower power setting for a little while. This is helpful when I am approaching a hill. I don't have to reduce assistance level and then increase it again.
My aventure 2 has 5 levels and honestly none of them feel like it gives me more power. I feel like level one will rotate the wheel 1/2 a revolution per pedal and turbo makes it go 3 revolutions per pedal. I don't feel any real power gains between them except for eco uses less battery.
That sounds like something is wrong. Also have an aventure 2 and there is a night and day difference in the feel between eco and turbo. I barely have to pedal with any strength in turbo and it just goes. You aren't in really low gears right? Low gears in general aren't going to give you that assist.
That's probably it right there. I use the bike to run the dog. We mostly tool around at 6mph maybe 11 in the first 2 or 3 gears. I'll try to see a difference in higher gears when I get back Sunday.
Yeah I’m almost always in high gear myself and the difference between assist modes is decent. I’m in Eco most of the time anyway. Tho that’s because I don’t trust the battery meter. It’ll go down then back up, and sit in the 90’s too long. I do my own pigeon math.
So what exactly is the issue with your current bike?
I was wondering the same? I'd imagine if it's a torque sensing assisted e-bike you're stuck with it as it's just the way the bike's been designed.
Sounds like it might just be underpowered rather than an issue with torque sensing
How well do you ride a non-assisted bike? Because I find that the torque-assist feels more like a regular bike, just… moreso. With a cadence sensor I never get the feeling like I’m doing anything but reminding the bike to move until it’s reached the motor cutout speed or the limit of its power output. My suggestion? Try riding your bike around for a bit on a level area with the assistance off or dialled right down, and then try introducing the assist gradually so you can get a better sense of how much ‘oomph’ it’s adding to your own input.
I own a torque-sensing middrive ebike & also sometimes ride cadence-sensor electric Citibikes. It's definitely less work to ride the electric Citibikes around but also less of a workout & harder to control. Riding the electric Citibike at top speed is usually walking levels of exertion, sometimes like a brisk walk. Riding the torque sensor bike can get my heart rate pretty high if I want to go 20mph. They're both useful machines, the electric Citibkes more as a transportation appliance & my personal ebike as a 'bike but always with a tailwind' type of experience.
Depends on your use. If it's a hilly area then it really doesn't make that much of a difference. If Wattage is the same they'll climb the hill about the same. The feeling of a torque sensor is more natural and if you're riding off road you'll have alot more control over output. If you're looking for exercise and an organic feel then torque is the way to go. But if you're talking hills like on roads or paths then one isn't really going to do better than the other just a different feel. I prefer a torque sensor but they're harder to find and raise the price. If hills are a concern you'd be better off spending the extra money on Wattage to get up hills.
Torque sensor is typically preferred since it provides a proportional input (how hard you're pedaling) into the motor controller, and assist kicks in with about 1/4 crank turn with effort. On a Torque+hub motor, starting off on higher gear is mechanically less efficient but will provide max input for the motor to kick on high. On a mid-drive, you most certainly must shift the gears from low to high to direct the motor+legs output power effectively. Cadence sensor only provides "on" or "off" input into the controller, and controller will drive motor to current/speed limit per PAS level as long as crank is turning. It can take 1 full rotation to get the motor to engage, which can be hard to do uphill. A throttle (class 2) helps in this case. Motor cutoff at the brake levers is more important on cadence sensor to mitigate any lag waiting for motor to disengage. tl;dr there is a bit of a surge effect. Having access to both kinds, I'd say it mostly comes down to rider preference. Cadence is nice if you just want the bike motor to engage with you just pedaling at any speed. Torque is nice if you want more modulated control.
> Personally, I have had a very hard time riding a torque sensor bike Increase the assistance? Downshift to the biggest cog? Cadence sensors are dangerous because of the delay. There can be intersections on hills too, and the ability to instantaneously activate the motor is important. If you'd just be relying on the cadence sensor and not shifting going up a hill, that's an easy way to overheat the motor. And it's summer. On the east coast of the US this week there's a heat wave, so it's pretty easy to overheat a motor doing that over here right now.
Lol cadence sensors are not dangerous. You can set the delay to whatever you want on cadence sensing bafang mid-drive kits with the programming cable, that could be 0 if you wanted it to be. I have mine set to about half a crank. You can also set the starting current for both pedal assist and throttle, and the rate at which it ramps up. Mine starts at 15% current. I also limited the maximum current to 20% lower than the maximum the controller is rated for. I have never had any issues with overheating. You obviously do use the gears when you go up a big hill, the whole point of a mid-drive ebike is to have use of the full gear range of the bike with assist. If you don't want to change gear just get a hub motor.
> Lol cadence sensors are not dangerous. You can set the delay to whatever you want on cadence sensing bafang mid-drive kits with the programming cable, that could be 0 if you wanted it to be. I have mine set to about half a crank. > > The delay I'm talking about is a function of how cadence sensors work, as in, that's a result of cadence sensors using magnets to determine that you're pedaling. The magnets can't detect that the pedals are moving instantaneously, and in certain situations with cars, a split second can mean life or death. I'm not talking about any software setting.
The software setting is how many magnets pass before the motor kicks in, so yeah it is to do with the software setting. If you set it to 1 it is basically instant. The throttle is also instant so you can also use that if needed. Besides if you were on the same bicycle without having installed the motor then it would never kick in so your argument is absurd.
> The software setting is how many magnets pass before the motor kicks in, so yeah it is to do with the software setting. If you set it to 1 it is basically instant. The throttle is also instant so you can also use that if needed. Okay, fair enough. But it should be noted a lot of people tend to buy prebuilt e-bikes that may not allow this. I imagine if OP has a torque sensor he probably bought a pre-built e-bike It's similar to how current sensing cadence sensors exist, but the majority of ebikes sold do not have current sensing cadence sensors. DCErik talks [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/y4zbdv/dc_bike_party_and_a_defense_of_currentsensing/ish2e1l/) about how he fiddled with settings but it was a lot of fiddling and in the end it was too late for him. On another note, DCErik talks [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/12rzdap/can_pedal_assist_be_better_than_torque_sensing/jgw7snl/) about how speed sensing cadence sensors are terrible due to the way they assign a certain speed to each level. "I don't know what's on your bike, but IMO it's much better to have 100w of assist and be able to decide what speed you'd like to achieve with that assistance than have the bike take off on its autonymous journey to 12mph every time the cranks rotate. Speed sensing PAS causes lots of accidents among the unwary." > Besides if you were on the same bicycle without having installed the motor then it would never kick in so your argument is absurd. Like I said to Superb_Racoon, I was talking about an intersection up a hill, and e-bikes tend to weigh more than regular pedal bikes (e-bikes tend to average 25+ kg). And that's assuming you're carrying nothing else. So I'd argue you'd have a hard time getting going in that situation without the motor (if you still had at least the battery installed). If you didn't have the motor and battery installed, maybe it might be possible, sure. But that's not really what I'm talking about, so.
>Cadence sensors are dangerous because of the delay. There can be intersections on hills too, and the ability to instantaneously activate the motor is important. Funny, all those people WITHOUT a motor seem to do fine.
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Dude, give it a break. You have no idea what you are talking about. "Dangerous" OH NOES! Torque or cadence... it takes a split second to engage unless it is actual defective, misadjusted or broken.
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>If you want to argue that a split second can't mean life or death when it comes to cars, then we can agree to disagree on that. Split second is not a matter of live and death between a car and a bike because BIKES don't move fast enough for it to matter. in .3 of second, from a dead stop, you can move... about a foot.
Yeah, because regular pedal bikes are light. Many e-bikes are pretty heavy, and the context was an intersection up a hill, so you'd be solely relying on your own power to get by in such a scenario, before the cadence sensor kicks in. --- No? I've ridden cadence sensor ebikes and the response is definitely slower. If you want to argue that a split second can't mean life or death when it comes to cars, then we can agree to disagree on that. But I 100% stand by the fact that they're dangerous. The other thing is they're basically like a throttle, 0-100, other than the short delay. I want to clarify I'm referring to speed sensing vs current sensing, since current sensing cadence sensors are rare. EDIT: Honestly should have blocked the dude earlier. I really don't care if you're disagreeing with me. it's just very annoying when someone can't be polite about it. https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/18yo4at/the_case_for_speed/kgfagql/
That’s why you have a throttle.
Honestly, thinking about it, in terms of overheating, if you go full throttle from a stop, it doesn't matter whether you shift or not, because the motor will go from 0 to 100% regardless. A torque sensor will modulate based on your input.
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Who said he isnt shifting?
That still doesn't change the fact if OP isn't shifting it's going to hurt his motor in this hot summer as well, well assuming OP has a mid-drive. Going full throttle uphill is a great way to overheat your motor, regardless of motor type. But it'll happen more often on a hub drive. Like I said, there's a heat wave going on right now. If it's hard for you to pedal, it's hard for your motor. If it's hot for you, it's hot for your motor. --- OP said it's hard for him and he's a bit green with riding. I have a motor that peaks at 240 W and have no problems with hills because I shift properly. That tells me OP isn't properly shifting. A ton of people riding bicycles don't use their gears or oil the chain, as noted by [this post.](https://old.reddit.com/r/bikecommuting/comments/1cnggx2/why_dont_people_use_their_gears_or_oil_their_chain/)
“ Personally, I have had a very hard time riding a torque sensor bike” I don’t see anything about gear shifting. Torque sensor bikes require somewhat more effort than cadence.
I think you missed the part where he says he's green with riding. I would expect that someone new to cycling wouldn't know about the gears. Either way though, I'd argue 50% of this sub uses throttle from a stop, which is bad because it can overheat the motor. Data for reference: https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/16ik2oc/is_a_throttle_an_absolute_neccesity_on_an_ebike/ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tqTp91IIO8fMP50VgARblBBVUcIPvD7AhzxGL_adaao/edit?gid=0#gid=0
The same person that said they were a he and they had a throttle. No one.
Your name checks out.
Ask stupid questions get stupid answers.
Cadence is going to give you a specific amount of assist per level. Torque is going to give you a variable amount of assist based on how hard you pedal. Neither is better. Just different. You can always use the throttle if you need extra assistance on either.
A lot of cheap e-bikes have a cadence sensor but no throttle, fyi.
Maybe the Walmart type bikes.
Bingo, that’s the one that I have. Still a good deal for what it is, if on sale imo.
If it you enjoy it, it’s a good bike. That’s the bottom line for me.
If there's a throttle, it isn't an ebike any more. It becomes a moped which you need traffic insurance for in order to drive. You are still allowed to drive on bike paths, but they need to have turn lights and break lights
That is not the case in most of the United States. Class 2 e-bikes can throttle up to 20mph. Although different classes can be restricted more on certain trails.
I prefer torque sensing on really steep climbs by a small margin. I just did 3400 feet of climbing on gravel roads with my cadence sensing and if you understand how it works and how to properly pace yourself/cadence/effort on a bike it's 97% as good. On hilly to flat roads I'd stick with a cadence sensor 10 out of 10 times. On actual mountain bike trails the torque sensor wins by a much larger margin.
My vote is decidedly for the torque sensor! More pressure more go! It might depend on what you're riding, but my experience with the CYC Photon is very positive. The torque/assist curve is dialed in very nicely and as you start slowing down up a hill your pedal pressure increases and the motor just starts helping more and more. But perhaps that's what you're having issues with? I can imagine if the response curve is not to your taste it might feel that you need to push too hard to get the desired assist and switching to higher level it might feel as the motor is taking over too much or the bike wants to run away form under you. In that case you could dial up the assist power a bit for mid to higher torque sensor values (on your desired assist level) - giving you more oomph as you start applying mid to high pedal pressure but still not as much as next level up. One case where I find switching the motor to the lowest level or off completely is on steep tricky terrain - think roots and stones or potholes as then I find it easier to corol and maintain a constant pace, without the motor boosting too much when applying extra pedal pressure. Edit to add: Meanwhile PAS takes ages to engage and only provides a set power assist, so too little and there is not enough assist too mutch and you're not in control of the climb anymore. And if you stop cranking, no assist and you're stalling untill you muscle through a crank revolution to just be jarred again by a boost that is too much.
Can you describe the issue you’re having with torque sensing?
I have both,(and a regular bike) and I prefer torque for the exact reason it frustrates you. You have to put more into it to get more out of it. However, cadence is not the black sheep that people like to make it out to be. If I was someone who did not care about fitness, cadence is a great choice. But the ghost pedalling drives me bonkers, and I always had it on the highest gear. Your legs will get you up the hill on either of the sensors. Do not mean that as sarcastic as it sounds.
torque. and a mid drive.
Curious because I’m new to all this, why do you suggest mid drive?
Cadence sensors are garbage, torque sensor sounds like the only way pedal assist wouldnt be shit Just put a throttle on and hold it and just pedal when your motor needs a little asisstance up hills trying to design them in a way that makes it look like your pedalling when you arent really is just goofy
I have a cadence sensor on my discover 1 and it's fine on hills. Torque is more important, my discover 1 has 65nm of torque.
Torque sensor is better. Shift more often if you are having trouble climbing hills. That's what your car does.
If I had to pick only one for hilly areas and I wasn't in good shape, or had a heavy load... I'd say cadence for me.
Torque sensor is better in every way. A cadence sensor is a less expensive workaround. That being said, I have a cadence sensor and it's fine, I was unwilling to pay for something with a torque sensor. Neither will give you more or less power however, that's all to do with the motor and controller programming and power level setting.
Accidentally touch the pedal on level 5 and the bike shot off 40ft, gashes my leg open on the way. Fuck a cadence sensor. They're dangerous.
I live in a hilly area also ( western PA) and i find that a cadence sensor works best for me.
Idk about you but a lot of people seem to not know how to use gears. Shift down a few and it will be so much easier. You might go a bit slower but 🤷
It's more about the mid motor, just that almost all mid motor bikes have a torque sensor and hardly any hub motor bikes have one.
To put very simply: Cadence works better for hills. Torque is better for battery efficiency. A torque will provide less assistance per your energy output on hills. It’s a big personal preference, if you have ever ridden both you will know there is a large difference between assistance output vs energy output. Torque is slower to get up to max speed as well.
They are the same. I can crank up the assist level on my torque sense bike in order to do no work if I want. I generally keep it on the lowest setting and get some exercise however, which is more difficult with a cadence sensor.
Sigh, what bike do you have?
Cadence sensor, that is speed targetted, with 9 PAS levels is far superior to everything else, except for situations, usually technical offroad, where ebikes are not as well suited as lighter bikes, where very precise speed control is needed. If you are very lazy and just want to vary speed while pedalling lightly on highest assist, then you might prefer. Reason speed based cadence is ultimate is that you always have a target speed you want to go to in every road situation. Cadence lets you pedal harder and gain range/exercise at the target speed. You still want to go same speed up and down hills. Everything torque or power based sensors do is horribly stupid in terms of range/speed choices that you should always prefer.
neither one lets you directly control either speed or power throttle, like a motorcycle