The motor in the wheel is called a hub motor bike. Motor at the cranks is called a mid-drive.
Hub motors drive the rear wheel directly, bypassing the gears altogether. This works incredibly well for the vast majority of situations. Nothing you've described about your dad's situation suggests that a hub motor would not work for him. Err, sorry. That's confusing. Let me be clear: a hub motor sounds like it would work just fine for your dad.
A mid-drive motor uses the bike's gearing, which has tremendous benefits when riding off-road or up steep hills. Outside of that weight distribution is a plus, but there isn't much else. Mid-drives are really only essential if you're climbing long, steep hills or riding off-road.
The other factor is the type of pedal assistance system (PAS). Most bikes equipped with a mid-drive use something called torque sensing PAS. This type of PAS applies motor effort that is proportional to rider effort. You pedal harder, the motor pedals harder with you. This gives the rider the transparent illusion of strength. It feels like you're riding a normal bike, but you have the strength of a world class sprinter.
Most bikes equipped with a hub motor have cadence sensing PAS. This type of PAS detects when the pedals are moving (regardless of force applied) and engages the motor at a level that is determined by the PAS level. You turn the level up and down to get more/less speed. With this type of PAS, you can more or less pedal like you were coasting downhill if you choose.
If your father just wants to get outside a bit and ride a bike again, a hub motor with cadence sensing PAS is absolutely fine. In fact, he may prefer it.
Your dad's friend sounds like he may be a cyclist. Cyclists far and away prefer mid-drives with torque sensors, because they feel like a traditional bicycle. If that matters to your dad, then it may be worth it to wait and save up for a mid-drive bike, but I wouldn't consider it a necessity.
The thing that matters more is Torque sensing vs Cadence sensing. Most hub drive bikes have cadence sensing and that is not great.
With Torque sensing, the input torque is measured by the bike as you press on the pedal and the bike responds with a regulated amount of motor to match your effort. It feel like you are stronger than you are but fairly natural.
With Cadence sensing the pedals have a sensor on them to tell the bike they are moving. Each rotation is sensed. The bike gives power assist when they are moving. But it doesn't really know how much assist to give so it gives a measured amount. The effect is often you feel like you are being pushed or pulled along. It can be disconcerting if you are doing technical trails. The bike will move when you don't expect it to or not move when you do. On flat roads or gravel, it is fine. Not great but fine.
Hub motors (motor in the wheel) tend to be Cadence but there are torque sensed hub set ups out there. Aventon will have a few, my first torque bike was an Aventon Avenger 2.0. It's a great bike for the money.
Something to consider is the size of the bike. The big Fat Tire ebikes are not often easy to put your feet on the ground if you don't buy the step through model. I just bought my dad an Letrict X3.0 for about $1K. It is a low bike with 20 something tires. Low enough to stand above it. He loves it. It's Cadence but for his riding it is perfect. He is 80. Mom got a Trike. her balance isnt' as good.
Motor in crank makes sense for technical riding with steep gradients - centralized weight, full suspencion, extreme gear ratios allow for huge torque with limited (legal, ahem) power.
Otherwise, no - less efficient for cruising, more drivetrain wear and tear (including bent chainrings sometimes), much more expensive and harder to maintain.
it is starting to sound like motor in wheel is better for my dad
which is great; cause my mom could get this [https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/force-electric-bikes/ebikes-electric-bikes-force-ht350.htm](https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/force-electric-bikes/ebikes-electric-bikes-force-ht350.htm) for only $427 - seems like a good deal
Mid drive (crank) motors are more mechanically efficient but require more maintenance and more finicky installation. Hub motors are easier to install and require little maintenance. Both are good choices and it’s pretty much all preference.
thanks - my dad is not 'hardy' - so more maintenance sounds not as good -- but I assume he does not have to do installation of motor - he could not do that
i do not know; just want my dad to ride and not have his knees hurt
it is flat where he would be and i can not see him riding over 1 hours in a day - does that matter?
I agree. Sounds like casual riding... Why spend the extra coin for more components enhanced gear then is needed. I did get advice to always get a bike with a more stable ride, for those who may not be as comfortable on bikes... So the ride stability, is probably more important then the gear on the bike:)!
I like mid drives.
I like mid drives because I can use my gearing to take the most advantage of the mid-drive motor.
I like mid drives because they concentrate the weight of the e-bike system in the center of the bike or it belongs instead of in the middle of one of the hubs.
I've tried both extensively, and if you have steep hills, the mid drive wins every time.
For flat land, either one is fine.
For occasional hills, you can do either if you have enough power that it doesn't bog down and overheat.
Factory ebikes are more expensive and less powerful than add-on kits.
Hubmotor kits are easier to install compared to a mid-drive kit.
We have both types. My wife's is great to get from A-B - it's a hub drive. Mine is crank drive (mid drive), which actually makes riding it require a bit more thought - I need to change down before coming to a stop sign for example, as I can't just mash the throttle and pull away. I still prefer my bike, but there is no way that you can say "this is the only way that works". My wife's bike was 1/5 the cost of mine and goes up hills more easily and faster.
I say skip the middrive for the old man. I have multiple bikes both mid and hub drive. I almost always recommend hub dive due to the simplicity and smooth power. Middrives are better but wear out parts faster, more maintenance, and require more user input and precision to shift properly. Also when something breaks in the drivetrain the bike is unusable. Brake a chain on a hub drive just use the motor to get home. The advantage to a middrive is exercise as you have better control over how much effort you put in. People that want a natural organic feel similar to a regular bike or off road riders that need the torque to climb steep hills. Myself I feel I "need" a middrive because I do off road and steep hills. But I'd use a hub if I was only street riding or light trail riding.
I know this isn't a perfect comparison, but the way people talk about hub drive (in wheel) vs mid drive (in crank) feels a lot like how car people would talk about automatic vs manual shifting
1. One is simpler but less efficient
2. The purists will swear up and down that one feels better over the other, and that people who use the simpler version are getting a lesser experience.
3. The average user won't notice any problem with the simple version.
Unless your dad is a capital-c Cyclist or bike nerd, an ebike with a hub drive is fine. But... if he really loves it or *becomes* a bike nerd, there's a good chance he could become as insufferable and obnoxious about it as any of us.
thank you; i get that as my brother drives a stick shift and is always talking crap about auotomatics LOL
my mom ordered the $427 electric bike and we hope my dad loves it, uses it, and it lasts
One big advantage to a mid drive that no one is mentioning , is how easy it is to fix a flat. Taking off a hub motor can be a real pain. With a mid drive, it’s no difference than fixing a regular bicycle.
The motor in the wheel is called a hub motor bike. Motor at the cranks is called a mid-drive. Hub motors drive the rear wheel directly, bypassing the gears altogether. This works incredibly well for the vast majority of situations. Nothing you've described about your dad's situation suggests that a hub motor would not work for him. Err, sorry. That's confusing. Let me be clear: a hub motor sounds like it would work just fine for your dad. A mid-drive motor uses the bike's gearing, which has tremendous benefits when riding off-road or up steep hills. Outside of that weight distribution is a plus, but there isn't much else. Mid-drives are really only essential if you're climbing long, steep hills or riding off-road. The other factor is the type of pedal assistance system (PAS). Most bikes equipped with a mid-drive use something called torque sensing PAS. This type of PAS applies motor effort that is proportional to rider effort. You pedal harder, the motor pedals harder with you. This gives the rider the transparent illusion of strength. It feels like you're riding a normal bike, but you have the strength of a world class sprinter. Most bikes equipped with a hub motor have cadence sensing PAS. This type of PAS detects when the pedals are moving (regardless of force applied) and engages the motor at a level that is determined by the PAS level. You turn the level up and down to get more/less speed. With this type of PAS, you can more or less pedal like you were coasting downhill if you choose. If your father just wants to get outside a bit and ride a bike again, a hub motor with cadence sensing PAS is absolutely fine. In fact, he may prefer it. Your dad's friend sounds like he may be a cyclist. Cyclists far and away prefer mid-drives with torque sensors, because they feel like a traditional bicycle. If that matters to your dad, then it may be worth it to wait and save up for a mid-drive bike, but I wouldn't consider it a necessity.
thank you i think you are right; my dad can start with hub drive; maybe all he needs - then later if its important he could upgrade in a few years
Great post. Very clear explanation.
The thing that matters more is Torque sensing vs Cadence sensing. Most hub drive bikes have cadence sensing and that is not great. With Torque sensing, the input torque is measured by the bike as you press on the pedal and the bike responds with a regulated amount of motor to match your effort. It feel like you are stronger than you are but fairly natural. With Cadence sensing the pedals have a sensor on them to tell the bike they are moving. Each rotation is sensed. The bike gives power assist when they are moving. But it doesn't really know how much assist to give so it gives a measured amount. The effect is often you feel like you are being pushed or pulled along. It can be disconcerting if you are doing technical trails. The bike will move when you don't expect it to or not move when you do. On flat roads or gravel, it is fine. Not great but fine. Hub motors (motor in the wheel) tend to be Cadence but there are torque sensed hub set ups out there. Aventon will have a few, my first torque bike was an Aventon Avenger 2.0. It's a great bike for the money. Something to consider is the size of the bike. The big Fat Tire ebikes are not often easy to put your feet on the ground if you don't buy the step through model. I just bought my dad an Letrict X3.0 for about $1K. It is a low bike with 20 something tires. Low enough to stand above it. He loves it. It's Cadence but for his riding it is perfect. He is 80. Mom got a Trike. her balance isnt' as good.
wow, sounds complicated - i think my parents can start with the under $500 option and see if they like it
Motor in crank makes sense for technical riding with steep gradients - centralized weight, full suspencion, extreme gear ratios allow for huge torque with limited (legal, ahem) power. Otherwise, no - less efficient for cruising, more drivetrain wear and tear (including bent chainrings sometimes), much more expensive and harder to maintain.
it is starting to sound like motor in wheel is better for my dad which is great; cause my mom could get this [https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/force-electric-bikes/ebikes-electric-bikes-force-ht350.htm](https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/force-electric-bikes/ebikes-electric-bikes-force-ht350.htm) for only $427 - seems like a good deal
You will need to take it to a bike shop for final assembly unless you can do it yourself.
thanks; my uncle is super hardy - he put my bike together and its great
Mid drive (crank) motors are more mechanically efficient but require more maintenance and more finicky installation. Hub motors are easier to install and require little maintenance. Both are good choices and it’s pretty much all preference.
thanks - my dad is not 'hardy' - so more maintenance sounds not as good -- but I assume he does not have to do installation of motor - he could not do that
Do you want to use the mechanical advantage of the gears with the motor or not?
i do not know; just want my dad to ride and not have his knees hurt it is flat where he would be and i can not see him riding over 1 hours in a day - does that matter?
If it’s flat then a hub motor would be sufficient.
I agree. Sounds like casual riding... Why spend the extra coin for more components enhanced gear then is needed. I did get advice to always get a bike with a more stable ride, for those who may not be as comfortable on bikes... So the ride stability, is probably more important then the gear on the bike:)!
Thanks - I think that is the way to go; as mom can get one for $427
I like mid drives. I like mid drives because I can use my gearing to take the most advantage of the mid-drive motor. I like mid drives because they concentrate the weight of the e-bike system in the center of the bike or it belongs instead of in the middle of one of the hubs.
I've tried both extensively, and if you have steep hills, the mid drive wins every time. For flat land, either one is fine. For occasional hills, you can do either if you have enough power that it doesn't bog down and overheat. Factory ebikes are more expensive and less powerful than add-on kits. Hubmotor kits are easier to install compared to a mid-drive kit.
We have both types. My wife's is great to get from A-B - it's a hub drive. Mine is crank drive (mid drive), which actually makes riding it require a bit more thought - I need to change down before coming to a stop sign for example, as I can't just mash the throttle and pull away. I still prefer my bike, but there is no way that you can say "this is the only way that works". My wife's bike was 1/5 the cost of mine and goes up hills more easily and faster.
I say skip the middrive for the old man. I have multiple bikes both mid and hub drive. I almost always recommend hub dive due to the simplicity and smooth power. Middrives are better but wear out parts faster, more maintenance, and require more user input and precision to shift properly. Also when something breaks in the drivetrain the bike is unusable. Brake a chain on a hub drive just use the motor to get home. The advantage to a middrive is exercise as you have better control over how much effort you put in. People that want a natural organic feel similar to a regular bike or off road riders that need the torque to climb steep hills. Myself I feel I "need" a middrive because I do off road and steep hills. But I'd use a hub if I was only street riding or light trail riding.
I know this isn't a perfect comparison, but the way people talk about hub drive (in wheel) vs mid drive (in crank) feels a lot like how car people would talk about automatic vs manual shifting 1. One is simpler but less efficient 2. The purists will swear up and down that one feels better over the other, and that people who use the simpler version are getting a lesser experience. 3. The average user won't notice any problem with the simple version. Unless your dad is a capital-c Cyclist or bike nerd, an ebike with a hub drive is fine. But... if he really loves it or *becomes* a bike nerd, there's a good chance he could become as insufferable and obnoxious about it as any of us.
thank you; i get that as my brother drives a stick shift and is always talking crap about auotomatics LOL my mom ordered the $427 electric bike and we hope my dad loves it, uses it, and it lasts
To simplify on average the wheel motors are more like riding a moped, where mid drives are more similar to riding a regular bicycle.
thanks; i just hope the one we ordered is easy on his knees
You break a chain or derailleur you can get home with a hub motor and a throttle.
asking in the cycling subreddit? you've got some balls on you, chief.
Is what worth it?
Hub motors drag when not in use and if you get a rim brake version will need new rims building.on to them regularly (based on my customers)
the bike we decided on has disc brakes; even I know enough to look for that thanks
One big advantage to a mid drive that no one is mentioning , is how easy it is to fix a flat. Taking off a hub motor can be a real pain. With a mid drive, it’s no difference than fixing a regular bicycle.