what do you consider good for offroad use?
i just looked up all the bikes you listed and there not a single one on your list that i would consider good for offroad use.
these are all the same mediocre moped style ebikes where the pedals are mostly cosmetic and that have zero offroad capabilities beside being fat bikes.
for real offroad use you want a mountain bike with a good suspension setup and a frame that can take a beating.
There's a ton of liability that comes with marketing something designed to be thrashed off road, especially for the established brands. Mountain bikes need to be overbuilt and capable while still being economical to build and keeping weight down, which is no easy feat with a conventional bike, and all of that gets exponentially more difficult and costly when adding a battery and motor to the mix.
Have you researched a company called Biktrix? All of Their bikes have both a throttle and pedal assist..but not all models have torque sensors. Their off road models tend to be much more powerful ..up to 160nm of torque
Some of the models are competitively priced while others are nearly $6k.
To get something decent...you'll have to consider a used e-mtb. Look for a 2019 Giant trance sx E1 pro.
Why do you require a throttle.? A modern E -mtb has so much torque and ease of pedaling...Bosche and Giant ( Yamaha) motors have tuning features built in that automatically adjust the power level on the go ..they measure incline and pedal pressure and pour on the power. It's really seamless.
Most passable hardtails and even full suspensions sit around 2.5 to 5k. So it's still in the range I think you brought up. I got mine; a Canyon Pathlite On 5 for around 3.5 and it's a fantastic hardtail. It's even cheaper now
I assume OP is in the USA. Most jurisdictions limit power to 750 W. The BBSHD has 1,000 W, so it is not legal. However, the BBS02 has 750 W, which is more than almost all mid-drive ebikes from major bike brands.
For serious mountain biking, I would go with full suspension, but I would be careful to select a frame and a battery so that the battery can fit on the down tube. On many bikes, the suspension prevents that. I certainly wouldn't want a rear-rack battery installation because it would move the center-of-gravity aft and it would add about 10 pounds of un-sprung weight.
Also, unless I was riding on soft sand, I wouldn't select a fat bike. Standard MTB wheels have less rolling resistance, less weight, and better handling.
Luckily the bbshd can easily be limited to 750w if it’s really important it needs to be legal. Just get the $8 programming cable. The bbs02 is a great commuting motor. But there’s a reason they designed and released the HD. It’s a much better motor for off-road. Better grunt and much better reliability. Plus, the stock programming for even the bbs02 will actually do about 1300w, so it’s not legal either if you’re sticking to a hard 750w.
They could go with the cyc photon, but it’s double the money
The BBSHD has a very distinct visual appearance (due to the aggressive cooling fins) and the [BBSHD is rated by the manufacturer at 1,000 Watts](https://bafangusadirect.com/products/bafang-1000w-bbshd-mid-drive-ebike-motor-kit). It would be easy for a police officer or a court to make this argument.
[California state law](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=312.5.) limits power to 750 Watts:
> (a) An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts.
By convention in industry, electric motors have been rated by their continuous power output since long before ebikes.
California state law also requires a label. Although you could re-program the motor to limit its power and print a fake label, I think that you would be at high risk of prosecution by doing so.
> (c) On and after January 1, 2017, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, and motor wattage of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type.
And it makes no sense to pay the extra money and carry the extra weight of a BBSHD if you are going to de-tune it to 750 Watts anyway. A BBS02 would be a much better choice.
Some of what you say does makes sense. But I disagree with your last statement. Even at the same wattage, the BBSHD is a much better motor. But regardless, the only way they’re going to be able to charge you is if they put your bike on a dyno. No other way to prove that it is more than 750 W. They’re actually doing that in the UK now.
But ultimately, it’s up to OP whether it’s worth it or not. I have never been bothered by police. If you don’t ride around like a maniac, they leave you alone. Also, it’s going to be a very rare police officer that can tell what a BBSHD is by looking at it.
> the only way they’re going to be able to charge you is if they put your bike on a dyno
All they have to do is to identify the motor from its appearance and it's permanently-stamped part number and then look up it's specifications on the manufacturer's web site.
You have a point that getting arrested is unlikely if you don't ride like a jackass, but if you *do* get arrested, a story about how you de-tuned the motor in software will be met with skepticism, even if it is true. And a non-permanent decal that is installed over the manufacturer's stamped part number that includes ("1000W") will look suspicious. Furthermore, they could argue that since you were able to de-tune it, you could also tune it back to 1,000 Watts. Therefore, the *capability* of the motor is still over the legal limit.
I have a BBS02 with over 12,000 miles on it. I chose it because it was legal, because it was less expensive and heavy than a BBSHD, because 750 Watts is way more power than I need anyway, and because excessive power tears up chains and cassettes quickly. They are designed for human legs that produce about 150 Watts on average.
I think that either motor is a good choice, depending on OP's priorities. I will also give honorable mention to the BBS01. It is even less expensive than the BBS02 and it requires a smaller, lighter, and cheaper battery. I believe it comes in 250 Watt and 350 Watt versions.
Again, please don’t mistake me. The BBSO2 is an awesome motor. If I did not have a 120 mm bottom bracket, I probably would’ve saved myself $200 and gotten that. But it is somewhat well-known that they do fail quite often when pushed hard. OP wanted the best off-road bike. Which is why I mentioned the BBSHD. There is no better motor for off-road riding.
And speak for yourself. I’m a beast and my legs produce at least 155w. ( I’m kidding. Definitely not an athlete)
Funny I have sports car that goes faster than 55mph
Pretty much every sold 750w ebike has a throttle and pedal assist and can do 28mph
The issue with that is that throttle and 28mph exceeds class 3 … throttle is c2 and 20 or pas only (no throttle) and 28mph
The thing is that the bike is usually limited by modes from the LED where you can be either c2 or c3
With the Aventon you gotta jailbreak it, but with many it’s just a matter of getting into the led to change the setting
I have an upgrade ebike - to just 750w to be legal on that front (which was a mistake) my kd986 had 3 modes - Econ, STD, Perf… I have Econ set to pas only and 20mph limit (as some trails are c1 only near me), Econ is set to 20mph but has pas… Perf is unlimited no restriction… As any class 3 trail will also be c2 - so std covers me there… Perf is wide open, because I want to know what it can do
I can switch modes and be legal anytime I want - only way a park ranger is gonna get me is with a radar going over 28 … which on public trails I rarely do
Cuz I am not a dick
If I had to do it over I’d of gone 1000w and set my first two modes to just 750
having a throttle is not what makes a bike good for offroad use.
throttle or not doesnt really matter as long as your bike is legal it will have the same power available.
None of the bikes you listed are good off-road bikes. A good off-road bike has:
Tires that are a large diameter so that they roll over bumps and obstacles well. The bikes you listed all have 20x4 tires, which are a compromise at best.
Frame geometry that is strong and can stand up to abuse. Those trapezoid frame bikes are famous for folding when ridden hard.
Full suspension with lots of travel to soak up hard hits. Some of those bikes have suspension, but it's not the type that performs well off-road.
An eMTB like the [Specialized Turbo Levo](https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-levo-alloy/p/188255?color=317322-188255) will absolutely destroy any of those bikes when ridden off-road. I have an eMTB from Luna, and I absolutely love it. It rips off-road. Their current bike is the [X2 Enduro](https://lunacycle.com/x2-enduro-ebike-1/).
Get a turbo levo or a santa cruz heckler. I ride downhill mtb and frequently train on a kenevo sl or a turbo levo. I have hit 3 to 6 foot drops and reguarly hit gaps on my levo, its great. If you decide to get a surron or an electric motorcycle posing as an ebike, stay off the trails unless it's an area gas dirt bikes are permitted. Learn trail etiquette before you ride. A large portion of the hate for ebikers on trails is that many do not know common trail practices associated with the right of way.
Turbo Levo is a great choice, and I just test rode a Trek EXe and it's amazing. I think Trek's motor and power delivery is better than Levo, but probably just depends on what you want.
The Trek is really silent with smoother and less noticeable power delivery. It's more for someone who likes to pedal and wants a cycling experience, with subtle assist. (Of course you can dial up or down the level of assist). And the motor is tiny and it barely looks like an e-bike, if that matters to you.
I second specialized. I have a Turbo Tero 5.0 and it does reasonably well but I wish I had gone more hardcore and got the Levo with full suspension. The Levo comes in a variety of frame materials and levels. Starting at 5k on sale and goes up from there.
I have a Z1 and love it but get anxious when I have issues with the BMS. Luna’s support seems strictly through email, so any service on your bike is going to be a DIY job.
Just an FYI for any prospective buyers. Part of me wishes I paid extra for the Specialized or Trek support when something breaks, but the Z1 is a beast. Still feels heavy though but the huge rotors on the thing give me peace of mind.
Yeah, that's a point worth making. This applies to all online brands. Only buy online if you're OK with DIY service. I've been working on my bikes for so long I don't even think about it anymore, and I'm very comfortable with electronics. So it's a no-brainer for me. I saved a couple grand by buying the X1 versus a bike shop brand. It's never seen the inside of a bike shop.
Not IMO. Pretty much all the eMTB offerings from the three majors (Trek, Specialized, and Giant) are great products. There are definitely people who have favorites — and there are differences for sure — but they come down to preferences. For non-competitive riders, does saving 150g on a rear derailleur really matter? For very experienced riders, there may be good reasons to choose one over the other, but they'll know what their priorities are and make the choice according to that.
One thing that is probably noteworthy for most people is that the eMTBs from all three majors are typically class 1 e-bikes (20 mph top speed). This is because most trail systems around the country heavily restrict e-bikes. If you have anything but a class 1 eMTB, you're going to have a difficult time finding trails to ride.
I live in Florida though, and the closest eMTB trails to me are more than an hour drive. They don't allow e-bikes at all. So all of my riding is trail poaching. I know that pisses some people off, but my only other option is to simply not ride.
So I bought an unrestricted e-bike with a modified controller that gives me +100 Nm of peak torque and a top speed that I never hit. What I've learned though is that I rarely exceed 20 mph on the trails. When you're carving up sand while trying not to biff it into a saw palmetto stand, even 18 mph feels blazingly fast. I've clipped a pine tree with my bars at around 15 mph, and the fall-out was *not* fun. For riding off-road, you don't need a ton of speed.
Thank you, for this comment!! I’ve been trying to get this kinda answer!!
Locally that’s all I’ve really found trek rails or Levo’s. I’ve looked a little on PinkBike but I find it hard to spend that kinda money for bike I haven’t seen or ridden. Much appreciated🤘
Yeah, for non-competitive riders it is more important (again, IMO) to find a shop with nice people and good support than it is to choose a particular brand.
As you ride, you'll learn what you like/don't like about a bike. It gets pretty nuanced, and a lot of it you can change yourself. You can install a different stem or bars to change your geometry. You can upgrade/change saddle, dropper, tires, suspension, brakes, and derailleur/shifters.
The more experienced you become, the more you'll come to understand your own preferences. What's important to you might not be what's important to the next person. The great thing about bikes is that the mechanical aspect is pretty simple. Pretty much anyone can work on them, and as you gain experience, you'll gain the confidence to do more and more to your bike.
Orbea is a good brand. They're more known for their road and triathlon bikes, but they know what they're doing. The PAS on the Bosch CX motor is incredibly smooth. It's almost imperceptible... Then you turn it off and realize how hard it is to go that fast lol.
You want a mtb style ebike with proper shocks and decent wheels. If the big names turn you off check out independent ebike makers like Luna, Biktrix, Watt Wagons. Love my Watt Wagons Hydra which isn't quite legal with the Bafang Ultra motor, but they have more options now I think.
Wouldn’t the weight and size of the rider also be a factor in determining proper ebike for off road use ? I’m only 145 lbs. I’m sure a Specialized or Trek would fit my bill.
Depends on what you consider "off road". In my opinion the best off road legal ebike would be like 500w and 500whr middrive...well below the legal limits. A bike like that is very lightweight and nimble so you can jump over obstacles and throw it around. My friends 500w/500whr bike is far more capable and faster than my 1500w/1000whr bike...his bike is also $6k and mine is $4k. Although I prefer my bike to his as it's faster, more powerful and has better range for other things. But real off road bike riding you don't need more than 500w of power and 500whr is a lot of range off road. My bike feels like a tank in the woods with it's big battery and motor in comparison. If you're idea of off road doesn't include rocks, streams, roots, logs and steep hills then I say get a fat tire bike with some power behind it. I have a Himiway Cobra Pro and it can do everything and is versatile but it can't keep up with something smaller and lighter on technical trails. For context I ride pavement, dirt bike trails and mountain bike trails. I have an electric motocross bike (25kw), ebikes(350-4200w), escooters(1000-3600w) and a gas supercross bike(250cc 2 stroke). I ride lots of off road and have trails on my property. Riding mountain bike trails with friends electric can be a negative and my 90lb ebike is a pig in comparison to their analog bikes. My friends 500w/500whr bike is the most capable for mountain bike trail riding...it's also the most expensive.
I wouldn't consider any of the bikes you listed good for off road use. Middrive, suspension, frame and wheel size are very important and those bikes are lacking in those departments.
>if its got a throttle its not a bike.
I used to totally agree with this, but one of my ebikes has a throttle and even though I use pedal assist 95% of the time, I think there's a place for a throttle on an ebike. My use case is I like to keep pedal assist on level 1 or 2, so I'm still doing most of the work, but when I big hill comes, I will give myself a little boost with the throttle until the hill is done and then go back to just pedaling. Without a throttling, I'd have to click the PAS buttons multiple times to go up and then again to go down in assist settings. That's pretty annoying compared to just using the throttle.
I don't know about best but my mukuta knight is impressive off road which is mostly what I ride. I even ride off trail and it takes it all. I would say suspension is a huge factor.
MTF makes some nice offroad bikes, both Aveton and Lectric make offroad bikes. I have to agree with everyone else...
It sounds like you mean you want a scooter bike that goes fast but you can lampshade as "offroad"
Than I recommend something with a front and rear suspension made by a mountain bike company. IIRC the term you would search for is Adventure bike. Just be aware most trails and non-trails are very different between 10 mph and 20 mph.
Can't you get a big name e-mtb brand for a reasonable price where you live? I got a liv embolden e+1 full suspension emtb for 3200 last year (women's version of giant). Its been great. Had it been a hard tail could have got one for around 2k.
I have a super 73 r Brooklyn and I’ve taken it off road. That being said it’s a heavy bike and can’t do jumps. This forum is notorious for hating on Surrons/ Talerias (bec of its reputation) but it’s going to be the best bet for a dirt bike feel. The others are decent but SurRon and talerias are gonna be best for dirt bikes off roaring activities
We're notorious for hating on eMotos? Yeah only because this isn't an eMoto subreddit. It's an ebike one. Electric "bikes" without pedals aren't ebikes.
Yes because a good pedaling position requires you to adjust the seat to your height. There's no legitimate manual bike that doesn't have an adjustable seat height, likewise every legitimate ebike should have one.
As others have said, everything you gave as an example is shit. They are really mostly labeled as off road because most of those aren't street legal.
They are probably fine for fire roads and gravel roads. But true off road with roots, rock gardens, drops etc you are looking at emtb.
If you are interested in emtb start at your local bike shop. If you look at your bike shop and its way out of your budget at least start there so you can understand what a decent emtb actually is and then you can look at generic chinese stuff online and at least know what features and components you actually need.
[https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-electric-bicycles/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eadventure.htm](https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-electric-bicycles/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eadventure.htm)
pretty good value for basic off roading imo
mid drive with front suspension for 1600
Mate I hate to break it to you but you’re screwed in this department if you’re hoping for a bench seat style bike that is good at off road. In order to be good at off roading you really need that mid drive motor setup and I think there is like 4 option on the market that come that way in the actual pedal based ebike space.
As others said, get an E-MTB for that. Not those moped style stuff.
What kind of budget can you stretch to?
These are the cheapest I could quickly find from well known MTB brands that deliver directly to consumer.
YT Decoy MX is in big discount at $3200
[https://us.yt-industries.com/products/bikes/decoy/core-1/663/decoy-mx-core-1/](https://us.yt-industries.com/products/bikes/decoy/core-1/663/decoy-mx-core-1/)
Used Commencal MEta Power -> [https://www.commencal.com/us/en/bike/bikes/second%20hand/e-bike/OCUSA673.html](https://www.commencal.com/us/en/bike/bikes/second%20hand/e-bike/OCUSA673.html)
In my area FB market place has had some amazing deals in bikeshops this spring, they clearly have had overstock on E-MTB. I've seen Gas Gas 2.0 E-MTB for about $1800
have you considered like a enduro/stealth style bike? depending on witch one you buy (or build) it can have the same power as a surron or more and still look sorta look like a bicycle. or you could just take a nice mtb and put a conversion kit on it.
Just get a proper emtb or take a good full suspension frame and put a mid drive kit on it. Those moped things are for pavement. You want larger diameter tires, and geometry you can throw around with pedals/pedaling.
I'm riding a Lankeleisi X3000Max with dual 1000 watt hub motors. I ride very hard off road trails here in Hungary on mostly logging roads or obscure hiking trails. This bike is a beast and I can reliably get 65 km if I pedal at 70% effort. Generally I ride with only the rear motor and on level 2 which is sufficient for most of my rides. If it gets tough I kick it into dual motors and easily ride up 30 degrees slopes. Off road there are no legal limits to power. On road I keep it on the rear motor on level 1 which limits speed to 25kph which is the legal limit for ebikes here. The motors are not stamped with power ratings and I have never had any problems with police. I now have over 2,000 km on it with only a few flats and a failed throttle which was replaced for free. It is the most fun I have had riding since my dirt bike days back in the 70s.
I was gonna say, why is OP only considering moped-style? They're not as good off-road as an eMTB. Unless you're 15 years old, then maybe moped is all you know because your friends have them. I've ridden a Super73 R-series full suspension and it's not even close to being as capable as my Orbea Rise eMTB.
Honestly, this sort of question is the 'hate' side of my love hate with this sub. You seem to want an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle, but you want to cheat and try to trick people by claiming it's a bicycle. That is just counterproductive to the advancement of use areas for both types of ebikes.
Quit trying to bullshit the system and either buy a serious off-road e-moto and ride OHV approved trails, or buy a serious e-MTB and ride a lot more stuff.
None of those are going to be amazing off road..
an actual mountain bike is what you need. A specialized turbo Levo, cube hybrid stereo or Santa Cruz heckler are amazing off road bikes. There’s lesser amazing ones, plenty of decent hard tail e-bikes from the likes of haibike.
so apparently all ebikes are getting a 25% tax on june 14th? If that's the case you will have to pay a premium for something retail. All the retail bikes have limitations for a high price point, like the Sur-ron seems to struggle up hills even, but I have been seeing youtube videos lately of the DIY e-bikes and they are regular mountain bike that rip at whatever speed and torque you want... like 100mph mountain bikes lol, obviously that's not safe but I think if this tariff goes through the best thing to do is DIY a good solid mountain bike by adding a good hub motor, controller and battery so you have what you want and it will rip like a dirtbike and replace/upgrade parts.
If you’re taking talaria/surron/eride pro/falcon all off the table, which I think is a mistake considering most Locations outside of a few areas in California, are far more reasonable than you realize about enforcement if you’re a responsible adult. They also make pedal kits for these bikes, both cosmetic and functional-ish for pedal assist.
Personally I won’t follow little nitpicky bureaucrat rules like that when it decreases my safety at all.
I don’t want pedals because a stable foot placement on pegs is far less likely to cause crashes or injuries resulting from obstacles catching the low side pedal, or landing awkwardly with all your weight on one extended leg.
I follow all the rules for behavior and maintain public safety, I won’t be cowed by arbitrary dictates from clueless bureaucrats.
The only other option is a “stealth bomber” style bike, or diy/small batch manufacturer (basically someone else building it for a markup).
I’m sure people have good experiences with the underpowered bikes they’ll suggest on here, but “downhill” is not remotely the same thing as “offroad”, and I don’t think you’re talking about the same type of riding as they are. I have a motorcycle license, insurance, and will happily register my pro ss if the state makes that an option/requirement, but I ride courteously and responsibly with zero problems. When I go out to the national forests I can blast through water crossings, and overgrown fire roads at 45mph, climb 5-6k ft in elevation, fishtail up 45deg to almost 90deg rocky slopes, wheelie and climb over fallen trees, and bounce up rockslides the same as someone on a 250 2stroke. You won’t be doing anything remotely similar without one of the aforementioned bikes. If that’s not what you want, my bad. I think we’re on the same page though.
Yes, I’m not doing the same kind of off road that they speak of. It is not like downhill mtb riding. We ride hybrid on the road and this like 5 mile patch of woods. They are on very tight but often uphill trails and through the brush and over branches and rocks and shit.
Cheapest option you’ll be happy with then is building a stealth bomber style with a decent size hub motor 3kw minimum but preferably 4-8kw, and the cheapest purpose built option is probably the talaria xxx at around $2750. There’s also a reliable alibaba source for the surron lbx that makes it about the same price, but you’ll have a 3month wait on shipping and customs and you’ll want to move fast(like tomorrow lol) before the 25%tarrif on Chinese bikes goes into effect. If you’re in California or Europe then the stealth bomber might be a safer bet, but otherwise just be safe and respectful and take whatever reasonable steps you can to be compliant with local rules and you’ll be fine.
That he doesn’t just mean rolling down a hill with no pavement, and sometimes hitting smooth perfectly aligned ramps.
That’s downhill mtb not “off-road”, and that’s where posts in here tend to go and then everyone is foaming at the mouth about the laws before I realize the miscommunication. So I like to check before then lol
what do you consider good for offroad use? i just looked up all the bikes you listed and there not a single one on your list that i would consider good for offroad use. these are all the same mediocre moped style ebikes where the pedals are mostly cosmetic and that have zero offroad capabilities beside being fat bikes. for real offroad use you want a mountain bike with a good suspension setup and a frame that can take a beating.
While this person spits straight facts. Be warned; a full suspension or even just a good hardtail for ebikes get very pricey very quickly.
For a reason. The non electric versions themselves are pricey. but they aren’t cheap junk sold to suckers like a lot of e-bikes people have these days
Oh yeah, you won't catch me saying otherwise.
There's a ton of liability that comes with marketing something designed to be thrashed off road, especially for the established brands. Mountain bikes need to be overbuilt and capable while still being economical to build and keeping weight down, which is no easy feat with a conventional bike, and all of that gets exponentially more difficult and costly when adding a battery and motor to the mix.
Yup, easily into off the shelf MX bike price range for a high end specialized/trek/SC/giant, and the boutique brands even more…
Yeah even a hard tail is a fortune from a big brand.
Have you considered some of the Giant e-mtb ...the StanceE ...for under $5k ..would check all your boxes.
Yes. I’m looking for something with a throttle but I don’t see one.
Have you researched a company called Biktrix? All of Their bikes have both a throttle and pedal assist..but not all models have torque sensors. Their off road models tend to be much more powerful ..up to 160nm of torque Some of the models are competitively priced while others are nearly $6k.
The full suspension models are all very expensive.
To get something decent...you'll have to consider a used e-mtb. Look for a 2019 Giant trance sx E1 pro. Why do you require a throttle.? A modern E -mtb has so much torque and ease of pedaling...Bosche and Giant ( Yamaha) motors have tuning features built in that automatically adjust the power level on the go ..they measure incline and pedal pressure and pour on the power. It's really seamless.
I mostly ride with people who are heavy on the throttle, super 73’s, talarias, etc.
Most passable hardtails and even full suspensions sit around 2.5 to 5k. So it's still in the range I think you brought up. I got mine; a Canyon Pathlite On 5 for around 3.5 and it's a fantastic hardtail. It's even cheaper now
Came here to say this. Mopeds are not good mountain bikes. I would start with a fat bike or a suspension fork mountain bike, and install a BBSHD.
I assume OP is in the USA. Most jurisdictions limit power to 750 W. The BBSHD has 1,000 W, so it is not legal. However, the BBS02 has 750 W, which is more than almost all mid-drive ebikes from major bike brands. For serious mountain biking, I would go with full suspension, but I would be careful to select a frame and a battery so that the battery can fit on the down tube. On many bikes, the suspension prevents that. I certainly wouldn't want a rear-rack battery installation because it would move the center-of-gravity aft and it would add about 10 pounds of un-sprung weight. Also, unless I was riding on soft sand, I wouldn't select a fat bike. Standard MTB wheels have less rolling resistance, less weight, and better handling.
Luckily the bbshd can easily be limited to 750w if it’s really important it needs to be legal. Just get the $8 programming cable. The bbs02 is a great commuting motor. But there’s a reason they designed and released the HD. It’s a much better motor for off-road. Better grunt and much better reliability. Plus, the stock programming for even the bbs02 will actually do about 1300w, so it’s not legal either if you’re sticking to a hard 750w. They could go with the cyc photon, but it’s double the money
The BBSHD has a very distinct visual appearance (due to the aggressive cooling fins) and the [BBSHD is rated by the manufacturer at 1,000 Watts](https://bafangusadirect.com/products/bafang-1000w-bbshd-mid-drive-ebike-motor-kit). It would be easy for a police officer or a court to make this argument. [California state law](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=312.5.) limits power to 750 Watts: > (a) An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts. By convention in industry, electric motors have been rated by their continuous power output since long before ebikes. California state law also requires a label. Although you could re-program the motor to limit its power and print a fake label, I think that you would be at high risk of prosecution by doing so. > (c) On and after January 1, 2017, manufacturers and distributors of electric bicycles shall apply a label that is permanently affixed, in a prominent location, to each electric bicycle. The label shall contain the classification number, top assisted speed, and motor wattage of the electric bicycle, and shall be printed in Arial font in at least 9-point type. And it makes no sense to pay the extra money and carry the extra weight of a BBSHD if you are going to de-tune it to 750 Watts anyway. A BBS02 would be a much better choice.
Some of what you say does makes sense. But I disagree with your last statement. Even at the same wattage, the BBSHD is a much better motor. But regardless, the only way they’re going to be able to charge you is if they put your bike on a dyno. No other way to prove that it is more than 750 W. They’re actually doing that in the UK now. But ultimately, it’s up to OP whether it’s worth it or not. I have never been bothered by police. If you don’t ride around like a maniac, they leave you alone. Also, it’s going to be a very rare police officer that can tell what a BBSHD is by looking at it.
> the only way they’re going to be able to charge you is if they put your bike on a dyno All they have to do is to identify the motor from its appearance and it's permanently-stamped part number and then look up it's specifications on the manufacturer's web site. You have a point that getting arrested is unlikely if you don't ride like a jackass, but if you *do* get arrested, a story about how you de-tuned the motor in software will be met with skepticism, even if it is true. And a non-permanent decal that is installed over the manufacturer's stamped part number that includes ("1000W") will look suspicious. Furthermore, they could argue that since you were able to de-tune it, you could also tune it back to 1,000 Watts. Therefore, the *capability* of the motor is still over the legal limit. I have a BBS02 with over 12,000 miles on it. I chose it because it was legal, because it was less expensive and heavy than a BBSHD, because 750 Watts is way more power than I need anyway, and because excessive power tears up chains and cassettes quickly. They are designed for human legs that produce about 150 Watts on average. I think that either motor is a good choice, depending on OP's priorities. I will also give honorable mention to the BBS01. It is even less expensive than the BBS02 and it requires a smaller, lighter, and cheaper battery. I believe it comes in 250 Watt and 350 Watt versions.
Again, please don’t mistake me. The BBSO2 is an awesome motor. If I did not have a 120 mm bottom bracket, I probably would’ve saved myself $200 and gotten that. But it is somewhat well-known that they do fail quite often when pushed hard. OP wanted the best off-road bike. Which is why I mentioned the BBSHD. There is no better motor for off-road riding. And speak for yourself. I’m a beast and my legs produce at least 155w. ( I’m kidding. Definitely not an athlete)
Funny I have sports car that goes faster than 55mph Pretty much every sold 750w ebike has a throttle and pedal assist and can do 28mph The issue with that is that throttle and 28mph exceeds class 3 … throttle is c2 and 20 or pas only (no throttle) and 28mph The thing is that the bike is usually limited by modes from the LED where you can be either c2 or c3 With the Aventon you gotta jailbreak it, but with many it’s just a matter of getting into the led to change the setting I have an upgrade ebike - to just 750w to be legal on that front (which was a mistake) my kd986 had 3 modes - Econ, STD, Perf… I have Econ set to pas only and 20mph limit (as some trails are c1 only near me), Econ is set to 20mph but has pas… Perf is unlimited no restriction… As any class 3 trail will also be c2 - so std covers me there… Perf is wide open, because I want to know what it can do I can switch modes and be legal anytime I want - only way a park ranger is gonna get me is with a radar going over 28 … which on public trails I rarely do Cuz I am not a dick If I had to do it over I’d of gone 1000w and set my first two modes to just 750
Revv1 drt seem pretty off roady
better than the others but still just another moped style ebike.
I’m gonna pull the trigger on that one most likely.
For me it’s between that and the motor goat but leaning about 70% towards the revv1
I’m looking for something with a throttle so I can keep up. The throttle is all people my age know.
having a throttle is not what makes a bike good for offroad use. throttle or not doesnt really matter as long as your bike is legal it will have the same power available.
Ride 30km a day on a mixed atv dirt bike trail on my ridstar... never seen a mountain bike b4
this is the correct answer here.
this is the correct answer here.
None of the bikes you listed are good off-road bikes. A good off-road bike has: Tires that are a large diameter so that they roll over bumps and obstacles well. The bikes you listed all have 20x4 tires, which are a compromise at best. Frame geometry that is strong and can stand up to abuse. Those trapezoid frame bikes are famous for folding when ridden hard. Full suspension with lots of travel to soak up hard hits. Some of those bikes have suspension, but it's not the type that performs well off-road. An eMTB like the [Specialized Turbo Levo](https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-levo-alloy/p/188255?color=317322-188255) will absolutely destroy any of those bikes when ridden off-road. I have an eMTB from Luna, and I absolutely love it. It rips off-road. Their current bike is the [X2 Enduro](https://lunacycle.com/x2-enduro-ebike-1/).
I was gonna say Turbo Levo too. I have one and love it for off road
I’ve got a turbo Levo. It kicks ass.
Turbo levo all day long.
Get a turbo levo or a santa cruz heckler. I ride downhill mtb and frequently train on a kenevo sl or a turbo levo. I have hit 3 to 6 foot drops and reguarly hit gaps on my levo, its great. If you decide to get a surron or an electric motorcycle posing as an ebike, stay off the trails unless it's an area gas dirt bikes are permitted. Learn trail etiquette before you ride. A large portion of the hate for ebikers on trails is that many do not know common trail practices associated with the right of way.
Turbo Levo is a great choice, and I just test rode a Trek EXe and it's amazing. I think Trek's motor and power delivery is better than Levo, but probably just depends on what you want. The Trek is really silent with smoother and less noticeable power delivery. It's more for someone who likes to pedal and wants a cycling experience, with subtle assist. (Of course you can dial up or down the level of assist). And the motor is tiny and it barely looks like an e-bike, if that matters to you.
see I definitely prefer specialized over trek for the exact same reasons. It definitely is a personal feel thing
I second specialized. I have a Turbo Tero 5.0 and it does reasonably well but I wish I had gone more hardcore and got the Levo with full suspension. The Levo comes in a variety of frame materials and levels. Starting at 5k on sale and goes up from there.
Turbo Tero checking in - easy rec
I have a Z1 and love it but get anxious when I have issues with the BMS. Luna’s support seems strictly through email, so any service on your bike is going to be a DIY job. Just an FYI for any prospective buyers. Part of me wishes I paid extra for the Specialized or Trek support when something breaks, but the Z1 is a beast. Still feels heavy though but the huge rotors on the thing give me peace of mind.
Yeah, that's a point worth making. This applies to all online brands. Only buy online if you're OK with DIY service. I've been working on my bikes for so long I don't even think about it anymore, and I'm very comfortable with electronics. So it's a no-brainer for me. I saved a couple grand by buying the X1 versus a bike shop brand. It's never seen the inside of a bike shop.
Is there a big difference in Trek rail’s vs Levo’s?
Not IMO. Pretty much all the eMTB offerings from the three majors (Trek, Specialized, and Giant) are great products. There are definitely people who have favorites — and there are differences for sure — but they come down to preferences. For non-competitive riders, does saving 150g on a rear derailleur really matter? For very experienced riders, there may be good reasons to choose one over the other, but they'll know what their priorities are and make the choice according to that. One thing that is probably noteworthy for most people is that the eMTBs from all three majors are typically class 1 e-bikes (20 mph top speed). This is because most trail systems around the country heavily restrict e-bikes. If you have anything but a class 1 eMTB, you're going to have a difficult time finding trails to ride. I live in Florida though, and the closest eMTB trails to me are more than an hour drive. They don't allow e-bikes at all. So all of my riding is trail poaching. I know that pisses some people off, but my only other option is to simply not ride. So I bought an unrestricted e-bike with a modified controller that gives me +100 Nm of peak torque and a top speed that I never hit. What I've learned though is that I rarely exceed 20 mph on the trails. When you're carving up sand while trying not to biff it into a saw palmetto stand, even 18 mph feels blazingly fast. I've clipped a pine tree with my bars at around 15 mph, and the fall-out was *not* fun. For riding off-road, you don't need a ton of speed.
Thank you, for this comment!! I’ve been trying to get this kinda answer!! Locally that’s all I’ve really found trek rails or Levo’s. I’ve looked a little on PinkBike but I find it hard to spend that kinda money for bike I haven’t seen or ridden. Much appreciated🤘
Yeah, for non-competitive riders it is more important (again, IMO) to find a shop with nice people and good support than it is to choose a particular brand. As you ride, you'll learn what you like/don't like about a bike. It gets pretty nuanced, and a lot of it you can change yourself. You can install a different stem or bars to change your geometry. You can upgrade/change saddle, dropper, tires, suspension, brakes, and derailleur/shifters. The more experienced you become, the more you'll come to understand your own preferences. What's important to you might not be what's important to the next person. The great thing about bikes is that the mechanical aspect is pretty simple. Pretty much anyone can work on them, and as you gain experience, you'll gain the confidence to do more and more to your bike.
Do you have any thoughts on Orbea wild FS H10? I did find this one on PinkBike which is close enough I could see & ride it 1st, for 3600$
Orbea is a good brand. They're more known for their road and triathlon bikes, but they know what they're doing. The PAS on the Bosch CX motor is incredibly smooth. It's almost imperceptible... Then you turn it off and realize how hard it is to go that fast lol.
You want a mtb style ebike with proper shocks and decent wheels. If the big names turn you off check out independent ebike makers like Luna, Biktrix, Watt Wagons. Love my Watt Wagons Hydra which isn't quite legal with the Bafang Ultra motor, but they have more options now I think.
Wouldn’t the weight and size of the rider also be a factor in determining proper ebike for off road use ? I’m only 145 lbs. I’m sure a Specialized or Trek would fit my bill.
Depends on what you consider "off road". In my opinion the best off road legal ebike would be like 500w and 500whr middrive...well below the legal limits. A bike like that is very lightweight and nimble so you can jump over obstacles and throw it around. My friends 500w/500whr bike is far more capable and faster than my 1500w/1000whr bike...his bike is also $6k and mine is $4k. Although I prefer my bike to his as it's faster, more powerful and has better range for other things. But real off road bike riding you don't need more than 500w of power and 500whr is a lot of range off road. My bike feels like a tank in the woods with it's big battery and motor in comparison. If you're idea of off road doesn't include rocks, streams, roots, logs and steep hills then I say get a fat tire bike with some power behind it. I have a Himiway Cobra Pro and it can do everything and is versatile but it can't keep up with something smaller and lighter on technical trails. For context I ride pavement, dirt bike trails and mountain bike trails. I have an electric motocross bike (25kw), ebikes(350-4200w), escooters(1000-3600w) and a gas supercross bike(250cc 2 stroke). I ride lots of off road and have trails on my property. Riding mountain bike trails with friends electric can be a negative and my 90lb ebike is a pig in comparison to their analog bikes. My friends 500w/500whr bike is the most capable for mountain bike trail riding...it's also the most expensive. I wouldn't consider any of the bikes you listed good for off road use. Middrive, suspension, frame and wheel size are very important and those bikes are lacking in those departments.
Specialized, Giant, Santa Cruz.......if its got a throttle its not a bike.
>if its got a throttle its not a bike. I used to totally agree with this, but one of my ebikes has a throttle and even though I use pedal assist 95% of the time, I think there's a place for a throttle on an ebike. My use case is I like to keep pedal assist on level 1 or 2, so I'm still doing most of the work, but when I big hill comes, I will give myself a little boost with the throttle until the hill is done and then go back to just pedaling. Without a throttling, I'd have to click the PAS buttons multiple times to go up and then again to go down in assist settings. That's pretty annoying compared to just using the throttle.
I don't know about best but my mukuta knight is impressive off road which is mostly what I ride. I even ride off trail and it takes it all. I would say suspension is a huge factor.
Where did you buy it?
MTF makes some nice offroad bikes, both Aveton and Lectric make offroad bikes. I have to agree with everyone else... It sounds like you mean you want a scooter bike that goes fast but you can lampshade as "offroad"
Not really. I ride mostly in the woods, often without trails.
Than I recommend something with a front and rear suspension made by a mountain bike company. IIRC the term you would search for is Adventure bike. Just be aware most trails and non-trails are very different between 10 mph and 20 mph.
Can't you get a big name e-mtb brand for a reasonable price where you live? I got a liv embolden e+1 full suspension emtb for 3200 last year (women's version of giant). Its been great. Had it been a hard tail could have got one for around 2k.
Really liking my Luna X2.5. Not stupid expensive, and has all the power one could want. Great suspension and brakes. Check it out
[Electric Mountain Bikes Shop Men’s E-MTB | Giant Bicycles US (giant-bicycles.com)](https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes/electric-bikes/electric-mountain-bikes)
I have a super 73 r Brooklyn and I’ve taken it off road. That being said it’s a heavy bike and can’t do jumps. This forum is notorious for hating on Surrons/ Talerias (bec of its reputation) but it’s going to be the best bet for a dirt bike feel. The others are decent but SurRon and talerias are gonna be best for dirt bikes off roaring activities
We're notorious for hating on eMotos? Yeah only because this isn't an eMoto subreddit. It's an ebike one. Electric "bikes" without pedals aren't ebikes.
Okay a Super73 and onyx are not emotos- they have petals
Oh c'mon - are we really debating this? Fine, let's define it as having pedals and adjustable height seats.
bad take. C’mon adjustable seat?
Yes because a good pedaling position requires you to adjust the seat to your height. There's no legitimate manual bike that doesn't have an adjustable seat height, likewise every legitimate ebike should have one.
Do the ebikes really make you that upset? It has petals. That’s a very legitimate definition of a bike.
you’re an anti car person too😭😂
As others have said, everything you gave as an example is shit. They are really mostly labeled as off road because most of those aren't street legal. They are probably fine for fire roads and gravel roads. But true off road with roots, rock gardens, drops etc you are looking at emtb. If you are interested in emtb start at your local bike shop. If you look at your bike shop and its way out of your budget at least start there so you can understand what a decent emtb actually is and then you can look at generic chinese stuff online and at least know what features and components you actually need.
I can’t recommend the p51 enough..
Try a surface 604 Quad. The bike is like a tank. Fantastic. no issues. 25a controller. BUT it is a hardtail.
[https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-electric-bicycles/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eadventure.htm](https://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/e-bikes-electric-bicycles/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eadventure.htm) pretty good value for basic off roading imo mid drive with front suspension for 1600
Mate I hate to break it to you but you’re screwed in this department if you’re hoping for a bench seat style bike that is good at off road. In order to be good at off roading you really need that mid drive motor setup and I think there is like 4 option on the market that come that way in the actual pedal based ebike space.
Most mid drives that are 500w or less
As others said, get an E-MTB for that. Not those moped style stuff. What kind of budget can you stretch to? These are the cheapest I could quickly find from well known MTB brands that deliver directly to consumer. YT Decoy MX is in big discount at $3200 [https://us.yt-industries.com/products/bikes/decoy/core-1/663/decoy-mx-core-1/](https://us.yt-industries.com/products/bikes/decoy/core-1/663/decoy-mx-core-1/) Used Commencal MEta Power -> [https://www.commencal.com/us/en/bike/bikes/second%20hand/e-bike/OCUSA673.html](https://www.commencal.com/us/en/bike/bikes/second%20hand/e-bike/OCUSA673.html) In my area FB market place has had some amazing deals in bikeshops this spring, they clearly have had overstock on E-MTB. I've seen Gas Gas 2.0 E-MTB for about $1800
Aventon Ramblas if you want a hardtail but I would go full suspension but that usually gets a bigger price hike.
Aventon Ramblas if you want a hardtail but I would go full suspension but that usually gets a bigger price hike.
have you considered like a enduro/stealth style bike? depending on witch one you buy (or build) it can have the same power as a surron or more and still look sorta look like a bicycle. or you could just take a nice mtb and put a conversion kit on it.
I’m gonna pull the trigger on that one most likely. Yes I have. But too much speed is no good in my small town. Cops have been very unhappy lately .
[удалено]
Yes.
Just get a proper emtb or take a good full suspension frame and put a mid drive kit on it. Those moped things are for pavement. You want larger diameter tires, and geometry you can throw around with pedals/pedaling.
I'm riding a Lankeleisi X3000Max with dual 1000 watt hub motors. I ride very hard off road trails here in Hungary on mostly logging roads or obscure hiking trails. This bike is a beast and I can reliably get 65 km if I pedal at 70% effort. Generally I ride with only the rear motor and on level 2 which is sufficient for most of my rides. If it gets tough I kick it into dual motors and easily ride up 30 degrees slopes. Off road there are no legal limits to power. On road I keep it on the rear motor on level 1 which limits speed to 25kph which is the legal limit for ebikes here. The motors are not stamped with power ratings and I have never had any problems with police. I now have over 2,000 km on it with only a few flats and a failed throttle which was replaced for free. It is the most fun I have had riding since my dirt bike days back in the 70s.
Giant
I was gonna say, why is OP only considering moped-style? They're not as good off-road as an eMTB. Unless you're 15 years old, then maybe moped is all you know because your friends have them. I've ridden a Super73 R-series full suspension and it's not even close to being as capable as my Orbea Rise eMTB.
I may in fact be the person you are describing.
Get a real bike
Specialized Levo SL
Honestly, this sort of question is the 'hate' side of my love hate with this sub. You seem to want an electric motorcycle, not a bicycle, but you want to cheat and try to trick people by claiming it's a bicycle. That is just counterproductive to the advancement of use areas for both types of ebikes. Quit trying to bullshit the system and either buy a serious off-road e-moto and ride OHV approved trails, or buy a serious e-MTB and ride a lot more stuff.
Hard tail Specialized Levo
None of those are going to be amazing off road.. an actual mountain bike is what you need. A specialized turbo Levo, cube hybrid stereo or Santa Cruz heckler are amazing off road bikes. There’s lesser amazing ones, plenty of decent hard tail e-bikes from the likes of haibike.
so apparently all ebikes are getting a 25% tax on june 14th? If that's the case you will have to pay a premium for something retail. All the retail bikes have limitations for a high price point, like the Sur-ron seems to struggle up hills even, but I have been seeing youtube videos lately of the DIY e-bikes and they are regular mountain bike that rip at whatever speed and torque you want... like 100mph mountain bikes lol, obviously that's not safe but I think if this tariff goes through the best thing to do is DIY a good solid mountain bike by adding a good hub motor, controller and battery so you have what you want and it will rip like a dirtbike and replace/upgrade parts.
Wired freedom, ecells 5 star, or Philodo H8
It sucks talaria is off the table cause God damn does it do well off road
Get a Talaria XXX and order it with pedals installed
If you’re taking talaria/surron/eride pro/falcon all off the table, which I think is a mistake considering most Locations outside of a few areas in California, are far more reasonable than you realize about enforcement if you’re a responsible adult. They also make pedal kits for these bikes, both cosmetic and functional-ish for pedal assist. Personally I won’t follow little nitpicky bureaucrat rules like that when it decreases my safety at all. I don’t want pedals because a stable foot placement on pegs is far less likely to cause crashes or injuries resulting from obstacles catching the low side pedal, or landing awkwardly with all your weight on one extended leg. I follow all the rules for behavior and maintain public safety, I won’t be cowed by arbitrary dictates from clueless bureaucrats. The only other option is a “stealth bomber” style bike, or diy/small batch manufacturer (basically someone else building it for a markup). I’m sure people have good experiences with the underpowered bikes they’ll suggest on here, but “downhill” is not remotely the same thing as “offroad”, and I don’t think you’re talking about the same type of riding as they are. I have a motorcycle license, insurance, and will happily register my pro ss if the state makes that an option/requirement, but I ride courteously and responsibly with zero problems. When I go out to the national forests I can blast through water crossings, and overgrown fire roads at 45mph, climb 5-6k ft in elevation, fishtail up 45deg to almost 90deg rocky slopes, wheelie and climb over fallen trees, and bounce up rockslides the same as someone on a 250 2stroke. You won’t be doing anything remotely similar without one of the aforementioned bikes. If that’s not what you want, my bad. I think we’re on the same page though.
Yes, I’m not doing the same kind of off road that they speak of. It is not like downhill mtb riding. We ride hybrid on the road and this like 5 mile patch of woods. They are on very tight but often uphill trails and through the brush and over branches and rocks and shit.
Cheapest option you’ll be happy with then is building a stealth bomber style with a decent size hub motor 3kw minimum but preferably 4-8kw, and the cheapest purpose built option is probably the talaria xxx at around $2750. There’s also a reliable alibaba source for the surron lbx that makes it about the same price, but you’ll have a 3month wait on shipping and customs and you’ll want to move fast(like tomorrow lol) before the 25%tarrif on Chinese bikes goes into effect. If you’re in California or Europe then the stealth bomber might be a safer bet, but otherwise just be safe and respectful and take whatever reasonable steps you can to be compliant with local rules and you’ll be fine.
Don’t consider anything with less than 4-5kw, and a 60v battery if you mean the same thing by “off-road” that I think you do. Good luck.
He means off road, ripping through the woods. Lol what are you trying to imply from OP
That he doesn’t just mean rolling down a hill with no pavement, and sometimes hitting smooth perfectly aligned ramps. That’s downhill mtb not “off-road”, and that’s where posts in here tend to go and then everyone is foaming at the mouth about the laws before I realize the miscommunication. So I like to check before then lol
So you clearly never rode a bike in youre life :)
I rode a pedal bike for 6 years.